Operation Sealion

[Chingo360]

self-explanatory, what do you guys think were the chances of it succeeding and it not succeeding, and how would it have been possible

[Fellatio Nelson]

Oh shit...


...someone's cruisin' for a bruisin'.

[Shadow Knight]

:eek:

And here we go again.

[BrianP]

He has spoken the cursed words! :eek:

[Hermanubis]

self-explanatory, what do you guys think were the chances of it succeeding and it not succeeding, and how would it have been possible
The Board consensus is usually ASBs; but even then...

[bekosh]

Release the Hounds!

[Doctor What]

~ducks into steel reinforced fireproof underground bunker~

[Grimm Reaper]

...INFIDEL...

...the fleas of a thousand diseased camels shall infest thy scrotum before the next day dawns...

[Andrei]

You might want to read these essays:
http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm
http://www.alternatehistory.com/gateway/essays/Sealion.html

[Floid]

...the fleas of a thousand diseased camels shall infest thy scrotum before the next day dawns...
Grimm... you realise you just wished for the fleas of a thousand diseased camels to infest your own scrotum? 'Thy' is a second person, singular and informal term for 'My'. I'll let it pass this time though... oh, wait... never mind. :D

[bekosh]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/bekosh/Smilies/popc1.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/bekosh/Smilies/popc1.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/bekosh/Smilies/popc1.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/bekosh/Smilies/popc1.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/bekosh/Smilies/popc1.gif
This is great!

[Shadow Knight]

Grimm... you realise you just wished for the fleas of a thousand diseased camels to infest your own scrotum? 'Thy' is a second person, singular and informal term for 'My'. I'll let it pass this time though... oh, wait... never mind. :D

:eek:

ROFLOL :D

[birdy]

all intersting points but er.... on the subject of SEALION:eek: . we might need a POD way.... before 1940 for this to succeed. the surface kriegsmarine had taken a battering in Norway, the transports for sealion were Rhine barges and from what i've heard the luftwaffe didnt do that well vs the RN in during dunkirk, though i may be wrong on that.

prehaps a POD in which Hitler and the military chiefs make the neccessary plan to invade england (not sure why) but prehaps amphious landing craft and other changes

[Alchemist29]

Doesn't this go in the AH cliches thread?

[Chingo360]

Man guys, atleast PRETEND that it was possible:(

[Steve]

I realise that Sealion is pretty much a no go area on this board, BUT…
Has anyone ever thought what if Hitler, or at least the German High Command, realises Sealion as a plan is a disaster waiting to happen and begins to plan a revised, much better planned and prepared for Sealion in 1941.
Another Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact style pact to pacify the Russians a little longer, although the draw back to this would be much stronger Russian armed forces when the time for Barbarossa comes. Would it be possible for a contingent from the Italian navy to break out past Gibraltar to aid in naval cover for an invasion fleet. Certainly by 1941 the Fw190 was beginning to enter service which in this time line gave Spitfire MkV a hard time.

I suppose the down side to putting off an invasion of Britain till ’41 is the Brit’s are in a much stronger position, but there again by putting of Barbarossa could the Germans dedicate more troops to an invasion? Could it be a mini D-Day with less attacking troops against less well defended landing points.

[birdy]

rememeber that britain is reading german codes so might they not know whats happening

[bekosh]

Perhaps if zey built a giant vooden badger?:p :D

[Mike Stearns]

My understanding is that Sealion as it was planned had very little chance of success, but if the Luftwaffe had focused on destroying the Royal Air Force instead of bombing London, and if the Kriegsmarine had actually prepared properly for an amphibious invasion, then a British Invasion might be workable. Whether or not the Germans would win is another question, but I think they'd at least have chance.

[jolo]

I think it should at least have been tried.

- Starting directly after the French campaign, when Britain was still badly prepared.
- Weapons and tactics of the British and French are analysed, means against them have been prepared.
- Everyone and everything is mobilized for the effort - even pensioneers, if they can still hold a gun (mainly in defensive positions or on simple duties). 2/3 towards Britain, 1/3 towards the Russian and other borders in case others attack.
- Intense u-boat war fare close to the British isles to sink British ships, to sometimes even attack targets ashore, to sometimes land commandos and spys, and so on - even on a suicidal level.
- Masses of activities along the channel to attract and shoot down British planes and maybe even ships or boats.
- An open attempt to dig a channel tunnel - should force the British to react. The real attempt is covered better.
- Masses of aerial assaults against air ports, bridges, road crossings, rails, railway stations, military structures, radar stations / radio antennas, harbors, storage facilities, ground troops, and so on - even on a suicidal level.
- Fake landing preparations to make British ships and planes get in reach of German fighters, torpedo bombers, artillery, torpedo boats, and so on, and to test and analyse the British reaction.
- Masses of torpedo boats, small subs, and so on, trying to sink the one or other ship, trying to shoot down the one or other plane, and so on - even on a suicidal level.
- Masses of fire bombs to occupy the people - on industrial centers, on commercial centers, on woods, on farms, and so on. Also some harmless irritants on the cities, to keep a coordinated defense from happening.
- Masses of decoys to divert enemy forces, produced partly even before the war started.
- A few outdated battle ships, made nearly unsinkable, to divert english forces, to shoot down a few targets (air, sea, and land), to maybe strand and form cannon batteries.
- Masses of cannons on pontoons and boats, to defend the attack - if possible already in the channel, the rest right after landing.
- Masses of floats and pontoons to help tanks of all sizes to cross the channel, produced partly even before the war started.
- Quite a bit of the "real" German fleet to help the effort as much as possible - even on a suicidal level.
- Pontoons and specially made transport subs to secretely transport soldiers to Britain, produced partly even before the war started.
- Lots of paratroopers, supply drops where there are commandos, landings or spys.
- Lots of boats and ships to transport the soldiers - basically everything that swims. Life vests and other aids to increase chances in bullet riddled environments.
- Lots of cement to quickly build concrete fortifications on the beaches from shot tanks, boats, and other available structures.
- Lots of nerve gas made ready in case the English start using gas - but sealed to avoid unauthorized use.
- Additional commandos and a few advance troops land in the evening, usually at remote coasts.
- The main landings happen in the following early morning hours and continue through the day.
- After landing, the troops spread out over all undefended buildings, vehicles, trenches, and other places and things useful as cover, as transportation, or as weapon.
- Civilians and captured soldiers are used as human shields. Children, girls, the ill, and the handicapped are send away to occupy the defenders.
- Close air support helps break down resistance - even if some planes have to land at the beachheads.
- A flexible tactic of expanding where there is little resistance and retreating where there is too much enemy fire helps increase conquered territory quickly and surround enemy positions and troops.
- Subs and torpedo boats try to fend off the British fleet and divert their fire.
- A partly fake resupply effort helps divert British planes and ships further, and helps a little bit if it gets through.
- Deep incursions into British territory help capture supplies, sabotage war efforts, collect information about attacks, laying mines, disrupt communications, isolate troops, and so on.
- A second wave of soldiers in the following night strengthens the successful beachheads and opens a few new ones.
- Additional tactics, weapons, and strategies that just don't come up my mind.

Germany at the time had about 73 million people, it could have easily recruited 7 million of them, using 2.5 million for home defense and 4.5 million for sea lion. Another 1 million could easily have been recruited from occupied territories, Italy, or as mercenaries from third countries. Italy could also have helped with a few boats - if mainly paddle boats. Makes 5.5 million people. I don't know if Britain had enough ammunition to kill half of them, especially considering decoys, dodging, defenses, and so on. I suppose chances are good that such a massive attack, with all the preparations mentioned above, might even have succeeded - though with very heavy losses. A few successful beach heads (surviving several weeks of counter attacks) might be enough to make Britain agree to a conditional peace agreement imo.

Please take it with humour :D

[Neroon]

I must say i actually see one way Sealion could have succeeded (I've been declared a free-speech-fanatic recently (on another board) so i'm already living dangerously enough and might as well post this here ;) ).
The consensus is after all that Germany could indeed have made a landing, but did not have a snowballs chance in hell of actually keeping the supply lines open, due to little problems like the rhine barges beeing so feeble that they all could have been sunk without firing a single shot but merely a British warship driving past at high speed.
Nonetheless i can see a successful scenario like this:

1. German forces storm the Dunkirk pocket and capture most of the BEF before it can evacuate (and also before it becomes evident how much the Luftwaffe sucks at sinking ships)
2. Luftwaffe drives the RAF out of southern England.
3. Germany lands an invasion force.
4. British parliament panics, kicks out Churchill and sues for peace. Cease - fire in effect before German logistical deficiencies are evident.

I have no clue how likely Nr. 4 is, but i honestly don't think it would require ASB. Remember that a lot of people though the invasion would come and succeed. After loosing the air campaign that would only be reinforced more.
Anyway folks that my solution and i'd say its very minimalist in the "required POD" department (1&2 are to make Nr.4 more likely but not technically required :cool: ).

[birdy]

- giant vooden badger-

yes but churchill would see through it even if it is offered as a 'peace offering' he might even be inspired to build a fleet of metacllic badgers with amphibous landing capabilities and will land in occupied europe while the germans are still working on plan B a catapult launched squirrel filled with special forces to be fired into central london to seize the government as well as the BBC to broadcast false information to british public

[Tom_B]

The historical scenario is not simply a matter of the Luftwaffe keeping up attacks on the Fighter Command sector stations. The RAF was problem #1 but the real bear was the RN. It is possible that some of the invasion force may have made it to the beaches but it is also possible the 4 flotillas the RN set aside for antiinvasion work would've been devestating. And even if some do make it ashore, overcome the defending units, the LoC gets cut and they get insignificant reinforcements and supplies and they may get shelled on the beach while still vulnerable.

1941 scenarios have some more German warships but the RAF and British Army are too strong.

There are only 2 scenarios worthy of any discussion

1] The Macksey early (July) invasion scenario, which comes in 2 versions, the original RN are total cowards version and the slightly better revised version. Macksey is tank happy. All that seems to matter to him is tanks. Let the Germans get a few tanks into England and poof Churchill goes into exile in Canada. The Macksey very narrow front scenario is more likely to end up having the Germans boxed into a corner of Kent unable to breakout.

2] What I call Sea Lion Lite. The German goal is not to conquer England but merely take the Isle of Wight as a means to force the Brits to negotiate. German success is still not probable but it is possible.

Tom

[MrP]

Grimm... you realise you just wished for the fleas of a thousand diseased camels to infest your own scrotum? 'Thy' is a second person, singular and informal term for 'My'. I'll let it pass this time though... oh, wait... never mind. :D

Eh? :confused:
Thy is indeed an olde-worlde 2nd person singular part of my. But you is a 2nd person singular part of I. So Grimm is correct, Floid.

[Thande]

Indeed, MrP and Grimm are correct.

I should know, in Yorkshire we still use thy (though we pronounce it thi, with a short i).

[Floid]

Thande, MrP, stop undermining my authorita! :(

[JEDCJT]

Operation Sealion was a flawed plan right from the beginning. End of story. :rolleyes:

[Flocculencio]

Man guys, atleast PRETEND that it was possible:(

The thing is that an invasion of Britain that would have been possible would no longer have been Operation SEALION.

SEALION is the designation of a particular plan which has been shown numerous times to have been unworkable and thats why if you bring it up on the board people are going to come down like a ton of bricks. Perhaps a better thread title would have been something like "How could a German invasion of England have succeeded?"

And Floid: Shame on thee! :D

[Thande]

What Flocc said.

A German invasion of Britain in 1940 is not impossible, albeit unlikely.

But Sea Lion wasn't an invasion plan, it was wishful thinking...almost on the level of "They will welcome us with open arms"...

[Othniel]

Sure, we'd need saboutours to sink 68% of the British navy and rig anti-craft to explode.

[Grimm Reaper]

Floid, I hath received thy complaint and doth believe it to have been resolved.:p

[Straha]

Ban Chingo!

[Major Major]

I know that the many experts are waiting to unleash their fangs on this, but as long as I'm here . . .

I think it should at least have been tried.

- Starting directly after the French campaign, when Britain was still badly prepared.
- Weapons and tactics of the British and French are analysed, means against them have been prepared.
- Everyone and everything is mobilized for the effort - even pensioneers, if they can still hold a gun (mainly in defensive positions or on simple duties). 2/3 towards Britain, 1/3 towards the Russian and other borders in case others attack.

Untrained troops will do less than good.
Moreover, they will have to be fed and clothed, equipped and maintained. If all the people making 88 flak guns suddenly get that letter that says: "The Führer of the Reich, greeting!" why, there aren't going to be any more 88s

If we turn this into a "the Reich should have mobilized for Total War", that still will do little good now. Indeed there will be some disruption in war production, and with cadres being sent to the Home Army for training of all the new conscripts swept in, there are going to be fewer combat troops.
Anyhow, a large army is not needed just now.

- Intense u-boat war fare close to the British isles to sink British ships, to sometimes even attack targets ashore, to sometimes land commandos and spys, and so on - even on a suicidal level.

"Suicidal" is the right word.
Germany started the war with 57 submarines and lost 24 up to May, while building 58 in 1939 (some of these may have been counted in the serving total) and 68 in all of 1940. Then there was the matter of working-up.
Then there is the matter of what kind. The only submarine suitable for getting close in and personal was the Type II. They started with 34
of them and added 16 more. The larger boats, the Type VII Atlantic boat, the Type IX long-range boat, and others in production (i.e., the Type X minelayer) would have been destroyed in coastal waters.
For a submarine to surface just off the British coast would have exposed it to the shore patrol, the thousand or so trawlers and drifters capable of calling in submarines and the RAF.

- Masses of activities along the channel to attract and shoot down British planes and maybe even ships or boats.

What kinds of activities? The RAF was bombing invasion ports, the Navy shelling them.


- An open attempt to dig a channel tunnel - should force the British to react. The real attempt is covered better.

This would, I'm sure, lead to great relief in Whitehall, as the Germans would be spending immense resources on a project that would turn out to be very useful once the continent was invaded by the British Liberation Army. It would take some time to dig a tunnel, and any activity on its British end could be handled.

- Masses of aerial assaults against air ports, bridges, road crossings, rails, railway stations, military structures, radar stations / radio antennas, harbors, storage facilities, ground troops, and so on - even on a suicidal level.

This comes down to a reiteration of Adlertag. Check the comparative strengths and production levels of the RAF and the Luftwaffe.

- Fake landing preparations to make British ships and planes get in reach of German fighters, torpedo bombers, artillery, torpedo boats, and so on, and to test and analyse the British reaction.

What's going to happen is that the ships in port will be shelled by the RN and bombed by the RAF, and the ones that put to sea will run into H.M. destroyers, after which they will be at the bottom of the North Sea or Channel, depending.

- Masses of torpedo boats, small subs, and so on, trying to sink the one or other ship, trying to shoot down the one or other plane, and so on - even on a suicidal level.

You know, all this comment about "suicidal level" is going to really do a number on Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine morale. Where are all these "masses" of torpedo boats, small subs, and so on going to come from?

- Masses of fire bombs to occupy the people - on industrial centers, on commercial centers, on woods, on farms, and so on. Also some harmless irritants on the cities, to keep a coordinated defense from happening.

I thought the Luftwaffe was busy making "Masses of aerial assaults against air ports, bridges, road crossings, rails, railway stations, military structures, radar stations / radio antennas, harbors, storage facilities, ground troops, and so on - even on a suicidal level." The Luftwaffe only has eleven hundred or so bombers operational.

- Masses of decoys to divert enemy forces, produced partly even before the war started.

Decoy what? Rubber tanks, a la Operation FORTITUDE? Fake ships? Dummy men?

- A few outdated battle ships, made nearly unsinkable, to divert english forces, to shoot down a few targets (air, sea, and land), to maybe strand and form cannon batteries.

At this time the Germans had three "outdated battle ships", the Schleswig-Holstein and the Schleisen in service and the Hannover being converted into a target ship. A sister ship of these, the Pommern, had shown herself painfully non-resistent to torpedoes at the Skaggerakschlacht (called "Jutland" in Perfidious Albion). KM morale seems to be diving into the sub-basement.

- Masses of cannons on pontoons and boats, to defend the attack - if possible already in the channel, the rest right after landing.

The prospects of hitting a target with a army artillery piece tenuously lashed to the deck of a barge, with a crew utterly inexperienced in firing at sea, are such that the term "risible" would be highly superior.

- Masses of floats and pontoons to help tanks of all sizes to cross the channel, produced partly even before the war started.

THe late Alison Brooks produced a highly useful essay, available at

http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm

I quote one useful paragraph, hoping it can be characterized as "fair use".

To get the first wave across, the Germans gathered barges and tugs, totally disrupting their trade in the Baltic. Eventually, 170 cargo ships, 1277 barges, and 471 tugs were gathered. These were, inevitably, bombed by the RAF (about 10% being sunk before they dispersed again). The barges were mainly those designed for use on the Rhine, with a shallow freeboard. They sink in anything above Sea State 2. The wash from a fast-moving destroyer would swamp and sink the barge. (Correct: the RN could sink the lot without firing a shot).


Floats and pontoons would be even less effective. Sea State 2 and worse are common in the Channel and North Sea.

- Quite a bit of the "real" German fleet to help the effort as much as possible - even on a suicidal level.

There you go again with the "suicidal" thing! They have a word for it: "Himmelfahrtkommando".
But what was the "real" German fleet? We've already sent the old pre-dreadnaughts to the bottom. Let's assume further that the catastrophic sortie of Salmon and Gluckstein, er Scharnhorst and Gneisenau has been called off, as in C. S. Forrester's "If Hitler Had Invaded England".
Then you have:
Two small and under-gunned modern battleships (S & G above)
One heavy cruiser (Admiral Hipper)
Two light cruisers (Emden and Köln) one elderly and the other flimsy
Ten destroyers
Eight old and twelve new "torpedo boats" [Craft about the size of a smaller British destroyer, but undergunned]

Where are all the rest?
One "armored ship" lies at the bottom of the Rio de la Plata, and the other two are in the dockyard.
One heavy cruiser is at the bottom of the Oslofjord.
Two light cruisers also went down in Norway, and two more are in the dockyard.
Ten destroyers decorate the shores and depths of the fjords around Narvikk while two more have fallen victim to the Luftwaffe
Four torpedo boats have sunk in various ways.

By way of contrast, there were over forty British destroyers in the invasion area alone.

Himmelfahrtkommando.

- Pontoons and specially made transport subs to secretely transport soldiers to Britain, produced partly even before the war started.

Leaving aside the problem of subs in shallow waters, see above about the problems of storms. Also, building these "pontoons and specially made transport subs" would have meant that something else could not be built. What are you going to give up?

- Lots of paratroopers, supply drops where there are commandos, landings or spys.

Paratroopers can't be conjured out of a gaggle of brand-new conscripts; it takes time and effort to train them.
Also they need transport planes. In June of 1940 the Luftwaffe had a grand total of 357 transport planes.

- Lots of boats and ships to transport the soldiers - basically everything that swims. Life vests and other aids to increase chances in bullet riddled environments.

One other point was that the Germans did not have enough trained sailors to man the invasion fleet they had. Alison Brooks points out that they were 4000 men short, and that was after mobilizing everyone who knew to spit to leeward.

- Lots of cement to quickly build concrete fortifications on the beaches from shot tanks, boats, and other available structures.

What are you not going to ship in the way of munitions in order to ship this? Cement is bulky and does not dry instantly. These improvised fortifications are going to be worthless.

- Lots of nerve gas made ready in case the English start using gas - but sealed to avoid unauthorized use.

I don't believe the Germans had any usable stocks of Sarin and/or Tabun then. Meanwhile, there was a very good reason they wouldn't have used poison gas in an offensive.

You can't get a gas mask on a horse.

That's right, the German army was only spottily mechanized. The vast majority of its transport was horse-drawn.

Never mind Adolf's negative experiences with gas, the Heer already knew using it was a losing game.

- Additional commandos and a few advance troops land in the evening, usually at remote coasts.

At this time the only troops the Germans had that could even remotely approximate this were the Brandenburgers -- who were at that time, I believe, only about battalion strength, and had been oriented towards land transport. Naval transport would take retraining, time they did not have.

- The main landings happen in the following early morning hours and continue through the day.

Because of the abysmally slow speed of the bulk of the improvised invasion fleet, they would have to leave in the daylight of the previous day in order to land "in the following early morning hours". Though they wouldn't land at all, since around midnight or so the RN destroyer squadrons would have steamed through the transport fleet at thirty knots and then had target practice with the survivors.

- After landing, the troops spread out over all undefended buildings, vehicles, trenches, and other places and things useful as cover, as transportation, or as weapon.
- Civilians and captured soldiers are used as human shields. Children, girls, the ill, and the handicapped are send away to occupy the defenders.

As a result, Local Defense Volunteers begin taking no prisoners. Brendan Bracken has a field day describing the inhumanity of the Hun.

- Close air support helps break down resistance - even if some planes have to land at the beachheads.

Where they find no fuel or munitions, thus depriving the Luftwaffe of useful aircraft without any effort by the RAF.

- A flexible tactic of expanding where there is little resistance and retreating where there is too much enemy fire helps increase conquered territory quickly and surround enemy positions and troops.
- Subs and torpedo boats try to fend off the British fleet and divert their fire.

We've seen how few subs and torpedo boats there are. Aren't they all supposed to be busy making suicidal attacks on British shipping, landing spies and commandos, and escorting the transport fleet?

- A partly fake resupply effort helps divert British planes and ships further, and helps a little bit if it gets through.

With what? Supply ships will be needed sending supplies to the beachhead -- although the supply effort was woefully inadequate as it was.

- Deep incursions into British territory help capture supplies, sabotage war efforts, collect information about attacks, laying mines, disrupt communications, isolate troops, and so on.

Since the beachhead is surrounded by regulars and the rear watched by LDV, what is doing these incursions?

- A second wave of soldiers in the following night strengthens the successful beachheads and opens a few new ones.

To quote Alison Brooks again, the KM had promised that "the time between first landing and the second wave of reinforcements and supplies would be 8-10 days."

- Additional tactics, weapons, and strategies that just don't come up my mind.

Alien Space Bats come to mind.

Germany at the time had about 73 million people, it could have easily recruited 7 million of them, using 2.5 million for home defense and 4.5 million for sea lion. Another 1 million could easily have been recruited from occupied territories, Italy, or as mercenaries from third countries. Italy could also have helped with a few boats - if mainly paddle boats. Makes 5.5 million people. I don't know if Britain had enough ammunition to kill half of them, especially considering decoys, dodging, defenses, and so on. I suppose chances are good that such a massive attack, with all the preparations mentioned above, might even have succeeded - though with very heavy losses. A few successful beach heads (surviving several weeks of counter attacks) might be enough to make Britain agree to a conditional peace agreement imo.

Most of them would have been raw recruits, taken away from war work, agriculture, and other essential industries, too late to do any good at the front.
Incidentally, the German armed forces peaked at 9.5 million -- much later.

The Italian merchant marine was unavailable. Mussolini had not checked with his board of trade before declaring war, and over half (I vaguely remember it was between two-thirds and three-quarters, but let's go with a conservarive estimate) of the Italian ships were overseas at the time, being captured. The Regina Marina was short of both fuel and long-ranged ships.

Please take it with humour :D

That's one way of looking at it.

John Ellis's The World War II Databook, H. T. Lenton's German Warships of the Second World War, and Richard Worth's Fleets of World War II were all exceedingly helpful in preparing this.
For the only work on Operation SEALION that is based on an actual map exercise instead of speculation, read Richard Cox's Operation Sea Lion (1974), based on a map exercise conducted at Sandhurst and including among its judges General Adolf Galland and Admiral Friedrich Ruge. The Germans lost.

The proponents of Operation Sealion in these circles have not been highly regarded. There seems to be a reason for this.

[DMA]

Oh no. Not SeaLion again????? :eek:

See the previous major Threads on this topic.


http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=13562&page=5&highlight=Sealion

http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=2272&highlight=Sealion

I've posted plenty in these threads as have many others.

My position on Sealion is essentially this: the Germans throw their OTL plans out the window & they do something else completely different. Basically they land at Ramsgate & not Dover. They continue the air campaign against the RAF & forget about bombing London etc. And they concentrate all the Kreigsmarine capital ships in the Channel including Bismarck. And they reserve a lot of Stukas & deploy them in the anti-shipping role.

[MrP]

Sealion (http://wargamesdirectory.com/html/articles/various/sealowe.asp)

Major Major, where might one come across the WWII Databook? I've got the WWI, and it's quite excellent :)

[Major Major]

Sealion (http://wargamesdirectory.com/html/articles/various/sealowe.asp)

Major Major, where might one come across the WWII Databook? I've got the WWI, and it's quite excellent :)

I have the WWI one as well, and I agree with you.

The Military Book Club has had them both.

[CalBear]

Dear God man! Quit while you are behind!!!!

[Darkest]

Blasphemy! Jihad! Execution or jihad! Burn the embassy down!

[Grimm Reaper]

...falls to his knees(ouch!) and raises his hands in supplication...

HAVE MERCY ON HIM, IAN! HE KNOWS NOT WHAT HE DOES!

[DMA]

Let loose the sea dwelling mammals upon Chingo's butt & may God (aka Ian) have mercy on his soul... :eek:

[PMN1]

Jesus, if this is the response he gets from mentioning a certain marine mammal's name, imagine the response if he published a few cartoons of one....

Incidently, whats the record for number of pages on this subject on this site - i've seen one thead go to over 40 pages before the ez board got hacked.

:)

[DMA]

Jesus, if this is the response he gets from mentioning a certain marine mammal's name, imagine the response if he published a few cartoons of one....

Incidently, whats the record for number of pages on this subject on this site - i've seen one thead go to over 40 pages before the ez board got hacked.

:)


Well the two threads that I've been involved with went for
7 pages (Battle of Britain result reversed (http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=13562&highlight=Sealion)) & 4 pages (ATL - Successful OP Sealion campaign (http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=2272&highlight=Sealion))

I don't know about other threads, but do a search...

[Flocculencio]

Incidently, whats the record for number of pages on this subject on this site - i've seen one thead go to over 40 pages before the ez board got hacked.

They don't tend to get very long on this board because the very mention of a successful SEALION is probably the one thing that can unite the various warring factions and make them descend on the unfortunate thread-starter like the aforementioned ton of bricks.

[DMA]

They don't tend to get very long on this board because the very mention of a successful SEALION is probably the one thing that can unite the various warring factions and make them descend on the unfortunate thread-starter like the aforementioned ton of bricks.


Well I survived speaking such heresy :D

[DMA]

Jesus, if this is the response he gets from mentioning a certain marine mammal's name, imagine the response if he published a few cartoons of one....


Speaking of which, let's test your hypothesis out…


http://www.burnszilla.com/photos/sfphotos/images/san_fran_sea_lion_pup.jpg

http://www.victorialodging.com/marine-ecotour/images/california_sea_lion.jpg

http://users.sdsc.edu/~hannes/html/pictures/animals/images/sea_lion.jpg


Aren't they just so cute :)

[esl]

You might want to read these essays:
http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm
http://www.alternatehistory.com/gateway/essays/Sealion.html


These are very good examples of how distorted history becomes when only the victors write them...or more to the point, on how distorted peoples understandings get when they are the only histories, people read.

Do you know that even at the height of October Storms there is usually a large enough window every day where the seas are "Sea State 2 or less" ...long enough to send a wave of towed barges one way or a return trip of powered barges across the channel. With only a couple of months preperation, 1/3 of these barges were powered or ferries. Given a years prep they all would have been powered. The man power shortages which limit the barge fleet to 80% of size [~1500 out of 1900 barges manned], would have also disappeared with a years preperation.

Let me just point out that Every one agrees that had the Germans gotten ashore in any substantial numbers the UK would fall since they had no real combat units to fall back on except two dozen divisions of raw recruites. The coastal troops had no training only one days combat supplies and would have been brushed aside with ease. Even the regular British divisions had little or no real combat training and would not have lasted long against the Crack Wehrmacht veterans. Neither General Ironside nor his successor General Alan Brook, thought they had any chance once the germans were ashore...infact Ironside was releaved of command due to his outspoken critism.

It should also be noted that both the Admiralty and Churchill agreed they could not prevent the germans from landing on UK soil, thats why Churchill had to prepare the people for the worse even plan for gas warfare. The key to the entire british defence lay in the assumption that any amassing of German invasion troops would be detected sufficently in advance for the RN 'anti invasion fleet' and the 'Home fleet' to counter attack along with the RAF. Admiralty was addimant on this issue , without a large enough target, they could not risk attacking so close to Luftwaffe cover. But what happens if the Germans don't play ball and follow that scenario? What if they strike first and amass later?

What maynot be well understood is that Germans planned several diversionary attacks of several divisions [including SS division] landing on 1/2 dozen ports overnight along the eastern coast, preventing local patrol boats from conducting effective survaillance in that area, opening up a route for regular supply delieveries to be shipped inland from that point on. As it was coastal command was unable to patrol their shores except for in clear daylight hours. They didn't have radar equipped patrol planes at that time and few warships had radar either. At night or in bad weather , single or small numbers of German merchant could always slip through with ease.

Each of the 1/2 dozen diversionary groups would be spearheaded by a cruiser and handfull of destroyers and torpedo boats with a hand full of armed mine clearing ships opening up a route [ With a years prep, that could easly have been a dozen diversionary groups into a dozen ports]. As in Norway they would arrive overnight landing the troops with the ships unloading the supplies over the next couple of days. Like in Norway a minor destroyer sorite can be expected the next day but this time the Germans would be ready for them [not like in Narvik]. Then a major enemy Cruiser lead sortie can be expected within 3-4 days to attack, so speed of unloading would be a premium and determine how many weeks of supplies could be unloaded before the ships have to flee or be cutdown. Since the RN can only sorite such flottilas once a week that could be dealt with , especial if a couple of German Uboats are tasked to screen the approaches to these occupied ports.

Even if a given German group gets cut off in a British port, they can be expected to hang on to that port for weeks, forcing the brits to dispatch more and more forces to tie the Germans down. This is what happened in Narvik in Norway where a german Mountain regiment [4000 total] was cut off and held out against 15,000 allied troops for weeks on end . Even though they only got one resupply mission each month they still held on and were only pushed out in the second month.

Every week the Germans could have sorited another 50,000 troops plus weeks of supples through those eastern ports inland. The RAF might have been able to hit damage 20 ships a week, but with a couple of hundred ships to draw on, it would take them over a month to reach the 50% thresh hold , the Germans felt was the cut off point. It should be noted that Luftwaffe could also reach out find and sink maybe a dozen ships a week too. The RN forces could intervene but with hundreds of civilian merchants at sea in these waters, it would be a slow and difficult process to get the real targets. I've heard in such situations they could only realistically identify 1 ship out of 6.

Under ideal curcumstances , the KM would have surged their battleships & Battlecruisers plus Uboats into the North Atlantic weeks ahead of the main assault. Since they had replenishment at sea, they could raid the convoy routes for well over a month. Historically this would have been a heavy cruiser and a Pocket battlecruiser, but with a years prep this sortie group could have included 2 battleships 3 pocket battle cruiser and 3 heavy cruiser. Such grouping could have been further subdivided into waves. This would have tied up the 'RN home fleet' for just as long, since they can only sortie for a week at a time and must rotate to keep alteast 1/2 their battle fleet at sea [while the rest is in port].

With the Home fleet gone, the anti invasion fleet is left with a dozen crusiers and 80 destroyers and DE plus a couple of hundred armed trawlers to patrol a coast line over 18,000km long [3300km if you simplify]. What that meant was inorder to ensure constant coverage only 1/3 of their fleet could be at sea on any given week and that would be further divided between three coasts. So on the east coast each week there may only be a couple of cruiser and a dozen destroyers, plus ~ 80 trawlers [1/2 armed] to patrol a 800km coast [south coast would be double]. But the situation for the RN gets worse. Since they are tied to their ports and the germans are ashore and expanding, these ports will increasingly fall into german hands. Within a week only 1/4 of the RN ships would be able to patrol /sweep the Eastern coast, due to extended transit routes just to get their ...and they would have to increasingly rob the south coast to keep up such forces.

It will not be long before the key naval ports of Royths, Lock Ewe, Clyde bank Portsmouth and even Scapaflow are underseige from the land side. I wonder how long these ports can function without a regular supply of fuel ammo and food. As it was UK could only stock pile a months worth of fuel, what happens to the RN/RAF when they run out of fuel, or even run low? Also as the germans raid inland they will increasingly occupy RAF airfields causing massive disloaction in the RAF.

With German battle groups all up and down the coast, the flood of alerts and information into UKHQ would quickly overwhelm the british decisision cycle, leading to its collapse. The Strategic reserve [1/2 dozen armored and infantry divisions with the Dunkirk survivors] would have to be dispatched to the eastern coast to find and drive some of the German regimental groups into the sea, that could take weeks. At that point the main invasion fleet of 3200 barges and boats escorted by hundreds of armed trawlers, would surge across the channel bringing the bulk of 4 korps [ 2 panzer & 2 infantry] .

When this happens the battle would be intense, since between bombing and RN attacks, they can count on sinking maybe 200-300 german boats and barges a week, but based on initial fleet numbers it would still take them 5-6 weeks to reach the 50% cut off point. At that point the RN reinfocements from the Med should show up while a new wave of German Uboats surge out .... Its a toss up who wins at that point. If the Italians had stepped up naval attacks in the med on Gibralta or even invade Malta, the Med naval forces may already be committed.

I'd say 50-50 chance for the Historical event and 90% chance of German victory, if things like Norway invasion are left until after and Dunkirk doesn't happen, while Admiral Raeder gets his year to convert all his auxilary ships/boat as invasion preperation etc etc blah blah.

[Wozza]

ESL you have laid down quite a challenge.

These are very good examples of how distorted history becomes when only the victors write them...or more to the point, on how distorted peoples understandings get when they are the only histories, people read.

I must take issue with this. Manstein's memoirs are some of the most overused source material on WWII, as are Liddell Hart's interviews witht the German generals.
There have been hordes of western historians, led by Dupuy eager to attribute superhuman powers to the Wehrmacht.
The most common PODs on this site are grand expeditions for the Germans to show off their tactical skill and ignore their logisitical limitations.


[QUOTE=esl]Do you know that even at the height of October Storms there is usually a large enough window every day where the seas are "Sea State 2 or less" ...long enough to send a wave of towed barges one way or a return trip of powered barges across the channel. With only a couple of months preperation, 1/3 of these barges were powered or ferries. Given a years prep they all would have been powered. The man power shortages which limit the barge fleet to 80% of size [~1500 out of 1900 barges manned], would have also disappeared with a years preperation.

With a year's preparation Britain is impregnable. Have fun in a towed barge in October.

[QUOTE=esl]Let me just point out that Every one agrees that had the Germans gotten ashore in any substantial numbers the UK would fall since they had no real combat units to fall back on except two dozen divisions of raw recruites. The coastal troops had no training only one days combat supplies and would have been brushed aside with ease. Even the regular British divisions had little or no real combat training and would not have lasted long against the Crack Wehrmacht veterans. Neither General Ironside nor his successor General Alan Brook, thought they had any chance once the germans were ashore...infact Ironside was releaved of command due to his outspoken critism.

The Germans will land with initially, no tanks, no artillery, no bridging equipment and without air superiority.
The British regular troops have demonstrated their ability to fight decently against the Germans at Arras and Dunkirk

[QUOTE=esl]At night or in bad weather , single or small numbers of German merchant could always slip through with ease.

Rocks. Good way to die on them.

[QUOTE=esl]Each of the 1/2 dozen diversionary groups would be spearheaded by a cruiser and handfull of destroyers and torpedo boats with a hand full of armed mine clearing ships opening up a route [ With a years prep, that could easly have been a dozen diversionary groups into a dozen ports].

There are not this many German ships in 1940. Again, with a year's preparation the British will be more ready.

[QUOTE=esl]Even if a given German group gets cut off in a British port, they can be expected to hang on to that port for weeks, forcing the brits to dispatch more and more forces to tie the Germans down.

Compare the logistics of Falmouth and Narvik for the British.

QUOTE=esl] [Every week the Germans could have sorited another 50,000 troops plus weeks of supples through those eastern ports inland. The RAF might have been able to hit damage 20 ships a week, but with a couple of hundred ships to draw on, it would take them over a month to reach the 50% thresh hold , the Germans felt was the cut off point.

You are suggesting attacking across the north sea rather than the Channel? That is mad.

[QUOTE=esl]Under ideal curcumstances , the KM would have surged their battleships & Battlecruisers plus Uboats into the North Atlantic weeks ahead of the main assault. Since they had replenishment at sea, they could raid the convoy routes for well over a month.

Considering the record of such sorties...


[QUOTE=esl]It will not be long before the key naval ports of Royths, Lock Ewe, Clyde bank Portsmouth and even Scapaflow are underseige from the land side. I wonder how long these ports can function without a regular supply of fuel ammo and food. As it was UK could only stock pile a months worth of fuel, what happens to the RN/RAF when they run out of fuel, or even run low? Also as the germans raid inland they will increasingly occupy RAF airfields causing massive disloaction in the RAF.

Simply way too far north for the Germans to supply or cover by air, forces up there will be wiped out or scattered.

[QUOTE=esl]With German battle groups all up and down the coast, the flood of alerts and information into UKHQ would quickly overwhelm the british decisision cycle, leading to its collapse.

The scattered battle groups will be unsupplyable,they won't be battle groups because they are not all armed, they will not be mobile unless the barges are filled with horses.


[QUOTE=esl] At that point the main invasion fleet of 3200 barges and boats escorted by hundreds of armed trawlers, would surge across the channel bringing the bulk of 4 korps [ 2 panzer & 2 infantry] .

I thought it was 1900 barges earlier? I do not see how you get tanks out of a barge.

I[QUOTE=esl]'d say 50-50 chance for the Historical event and 90% chance of German victory, if things like Norway invasion are left until after and Dunkirk doesn't happen, while Admiral Raeder gets his year to convert all his auxilary ships/boat as invasion preperation etc etc blah blah.

It is hard to see this happening before 1941, and even that would be a nightmare.

[Tom_B]

I will try to be constructive. People should not spin Axis Win phantasms. The only serious attempt to justify a successful Sea Lion is the Macksey books:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1853673617/qid=1140103584/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-3577845-4668912?s=books&v=glance&n=283155


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1853673129/qid=1140103584/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/102-3577845-4668912?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

In the former it is the whole book and later it is one of several scenarios. No I have stated and will now state again I don't buy it, that he really an Army guy with a woeful underappreciation of naval power--but at least he makes a halfway effort at dealing with the facts. I would like to participate in an intelligent critique of Macksey's shortcoming.

It will be noted that Macksey is talking about a July lean and mean very narrow front Sea Lion not the Sept deal which he admits would have had many many more problems.

There was a war game played with several German and British bigwigs about a Sept Sea Lion. It was published but I believe is now out of print. People who want to talk meaningfully on this topic and not indulge in "Axis Wins" opium dreams will do well to get it out of a well stocked library. Essentially most of the first wave get ashore but what little remains of the KM destroyers are sunk in the process. They are cordoned off and unable to get any significant reinforcements or resupply and are destroyed in a few days. Actually even this is a bit over optimistic. I think the RN flotillas would have butchered at least half the invasion fleet before it got to England.

Tom

[Wozza]

There was a war game played with several German and British bigwigs about a Sept Sea Lion. It was published but I believe is now out of print. People who want to talk meaningfully on this topic and not indulge in "Axis Wins" opium dreams will do well to get it out of a well stocked library. Essentially most of the first wave get ashore but what little remains of the KM destroyers are sunk in the process. They are cordoned off and unable to get any significant reinforcements or resupply and are destroyed in a few days. Actually even this is a bit over optimistic. I think the RN flotillas would have butchered at least half the invasion fleet before it got to England.

Tom

I have read this, Alan Clarke was one of the authors, I forget the others. It is a good book, and yes the most thorough I have seen - although this issue is often re-visited, with two books out in the last year.

[Tom_B]

I have read this, Alan Clarke was one of the authors, I forget the others. It is a good book, and yes the most thorough I have seen - although this issue is often re-visited, with two books out in the last year.

I think Galland particpated amongst the Germans. Again this is the classic Sept scenario. What I would really like to see if a detailedl refutation of the Macksey July fantasies.

TOm

[Wozza]

I think Galland particpated amongst the Germans. Again this is the classic Sept scenario. What I would really like to see if a detailedl refutation of the Macksey July fantasies.

TOm

I have seen the Macksey book but was never tempted to buy it.
It has a subsidiary landing at Southend, and far too many vehicles.
That just was not the plan and they did not have the boats, surely?

The flin.demon link posted above here seems to give such a rebuttal. Is it accurate??

[Shadow Knight]

The only decent 'Sealionesque' TL I have seen is Bluenote's Death of Goering TL. And it has a POD back in the thirties. Even then it is not a full invasion more of a limited grab and hope for a British panic.

[Tom_B]

I have seen the Macksey book but was never tempted to buy it.
It has a subsidiary landing at Southend, and far too many vehicles.
That just was not the plan and they did not have the boats, surely?

The flin.demon link posted above here seems to give such a rebuttal. Is it accurate??

Macksey's putative POD is that Raeder is told to start planning an invasion in late May so this allows enough transport to be assembled (mostly self propelled barges) to carry 2 divisions by sea in his initial assault. I am willing to let him him off on this score.

In the revised Macksey (not the original) he has Scharnhorst and Gneisenau held back by Raeder because of the invasion decision. This is borderline plausible. This gives the KM more naval muscle BUT not as much as he thinks.

In the revised scenario he speds up the follow on schedule which was already a monument to hand waving in the original. Now the entire panzer regiment of 9th Panzer Division makes it into Dover on the second day. Yeah right.

The overworked Luftwaffe is the most devestating argument. They have about 5 critical tasks to perform. If any fails the operation fails. At best they have strength to accomplish two if they completely neglect the other 3.
He does allow them to refight the Battle of Britain in a compressed form and the article is not 100% fair--there were fewer CH stations and no CHL in July and Fighter COmmand was a bit weaker (you can get a detailed Fighter Command 1 Jul ORBAT in Deighton) but Macksey essentially ignores Luftwaffe exhaustion.

Tom

[Chingo360]

Speaking of which, let's test your hypothesis out…


http://www.burnszilla.com/photos/sfphotos/images/san_fran_sea_lion_pup.jpg

http://www.victorialodging.com/marine-ecotour/images/california_sea_lion.jpg

http://users.sdsc.edu/%7Ehannes/html/pictures/animals/images/sea_lion.jpg


Aren't they just so cute :)




awwwwwwww they are sooooo pretty, i wish i had a
SEALION

[Ramp-Rat]

They might look nice, but wait untill you get up close and catch a wiff of their breath, phwww.:eek:

[Thande]

I find it interesting that in "The Man in the High Castle", Philip K. Dick had the German plan to nuke and invade Japan as "Operation Dandelion"...

[Chingo360]

yep, fillup K. dick, lol

SEALION!

Rhine Barges are quite peaceful i remember the good times when we used to go up and down the Rhine past the castles with them

[wkwillis]

Well, if you get all the bulldozers in Europe and have them build a few thousand causeways to England, each about 100 yards wide, remembering that the channel is only twenty feet deep, and it's only twenty miles away, and you start in late June, then maybe...well, no.

[Chingo360]

Well, if you get all the bulldozers in Europe and have them build a few thousand causeways to England, each about 100 yards wide, remembering that the channel is only twenty feet deep, and it's only twenty miles away, and you start in late June, then maybe...well, no.

actually i remember the channel was quite deep in some spots when he crossed it

[Chingo360]

think about the Tunnel, that thing is like 100 feet below the surface

[wkwillis]

actually i remember the channel was quite deep in some spots when he crossed it
In a few shipping channels it's dredged. They aren't very wide. You could build causeways. Oh, yeah, the land between the causeways also gets pumped out because you cross connect them.

[DMA]

Macksey's putative POD is that Raeder is told to start planning an invasion in late May so this allows enough transport to be assembled (mostly self propelled barges) to carry 2 divisions by sea in his initial assault. I am willing to let him him off on this score.

In the revised Macksey (not the original) he has Scharnhorst and Gneisenau held back by Raeder because of the invasion decision. This is borderline plausible. This gives the KM more naval muscle BUT not as much as he thinks.

In the revised scenario he speds up the follow on schedule which was already a monument to hand waving in the original. Now the entire panzer regiment of 9th Panzer Division makes it into Dover on the second day. Yeah right.

The overworked Luftwaffe is the most devestating argument. They have about 5 critical tasks to perform. If any fails the operation fails. At best they have strength to accomplish two if they completely neglect the other 3.
He does allow them to refight the Battle of Britain in a compressed form and the article is not 100% fair--there were fewer CH stations and no CHL in July and Fighter COmmand was a bit weaker (you can get a detailed Fighter Command 1 Jul ORBAT in Deighton) but Macksey essentially ignores Luftwaffe exhaustion.

Tom


I've got Macksey's book Invasion. It is seriously flawed in three areas (& others, but I'll stick to these three massive flaws):

1) His main premise for success is that Sealion would take place in July 1940. That is far too ambitious considering Germany's armed forces are far too busy finishing off the French. As a result, there's no chance that the Germans could organise the barges, let alone a sizable invasion force (100 000 plus), dominate the skys over southern England AND France, plus gain naval & air superiority over the Channel.

2) The plans for Sealion are pretty much per OTL. As a result (& even Macksey mentions this) the Germans get slaughtered on the beaches at Dover. Yet somehow they manage to overcome the defenders. Complete crap.

3) Apparently the RN goes on a ocean cruise into the Atlantic & refuses to engage German naval forces in the Channel for the most part. Without a doubt, with the discussions on this board, one of the greatest weakpoints in Sealion is keeping the Channel under German control, so that they can bring in supplies & reinforcements. This fundamental aspect of Sealion is completely ignored by Macksey (or he applies ASB logic to the problem), whilst he merely concentrates on the land battles after the landing.

[esl]

ESL you have laid down quite a challenge.


[esl]Do you know that even at the height of October Storms there is usually a large enough window every day where the seas are "Sea State 2 or less" ...long enough to send a wave of towed barges one way or a return trip of powered barges across the channel. With only a couple of months preperation, 1/3 of these barges were powered or ferries. Given a years prep they all would have been powered. The man power shortages which limit the barge fleet to 80% of size [~1500 out of 1900 barges manned], would have also disappeared with a years preperation.

--------------------------------------------
With a year's preparation Britain is impregnable. Have fun in a towed barge in October.

Start prep time is 1938-39 as an annex to invasion of france ,so UK will not be any more prepared than the OTL. Remember Hitler forbade any preperations for war with the UK which is why little if anything was ready. Britain coastal defense were a seive until 1942 when the coastal command was replenshed with modern patrol bomber and radars were on most warships. Before that the serious defense plans evolved around gas warfare and keeping their reserve forces inland for counter attacks.




[esl]Let me just point out that Every one agrees that had the Germans gotten ashore in any substantial numbers the UK would fall since they had no real combat units to fall back on except two dozen divisions of raw recruites. The coastal troops had no training only one days combat supplies and would have been brushed aside with ease. Even the regular British divisions had little or no real combat training and would not have lasted long against the Crack Wehrmacht veterans. Neither General Ironside nor his successor General Alan Brook, thought they had any chance once the germans were ashore...infact Ironside was releaved of command due to his outspoken critism.


The Germans will land with initially, no tanks, no artillery, no bridging equipment and without air superiority.
The British regular troops have demonstrated their ability to fight decently against the Germans at Arras and Dunkirk

There are no regular troops in the front line, just raw recruits with no training and days of combat supplies. General Brook correctly recognised that he had to pull back his reserves to preserve them for the main clash. Again gas was their principle weapon. While the brits may have fought sporatic battles well, the lost the campaign in every respect. The initial landings up the coast would be infantry regiments like in Norway, all they have to do is to induce panic and get the brits to divert their strategic reserve. As in Norway case they would expand each of their far flung bridge head spreading rumors of German force everywere. That would collapse the already weakened UK moral and command structure.



[esl]At night or in bad weather , single or small numbers of German merchant could always slip through with ease.

Rocks. Good way to die on them.

most ports don' t have rocks in them, they have docks which are designed to ease unloading ;) In Norway the unloading averaged out to 1500 tons per week. The much bigger british ports would allow >5000 tons a week. 5000 tons for a regimental group is months of supplies


[esl]Each of the 1/2 dozen diversionary groups would be spearheaded by a cruiser and handfull of destroyers and torpedo boats with a hand full of armed mine clearing ships opening up a route [ With a years prep, that could easly have been a dozen diversionary groups into a dozen ports].

There are not this many German ships in 1940. Again, with a year's preparation the British will be more ready.

Your going the wrong way, the years prep is before not after. So Norway is not conducted and the KM surface fleet is perserved near full strength. Historically the Germans could rely on 150 merchants plus ~50 auxilary merchant warships plus 1/2 dozen cruisers and auxilary cruiser. In addition they had 9 destroyers and 19 torpedo boats. This doesn't include the capital ships & Uboats which would be reserved for the inital surge intended to mislead the RN into more surface raides [AKA the earlier S & G raids which were successfull and scared the UK].

With out Norway Germany has 6 cruisers and 7 auxilary cruisers plus 50 sperrbrecher mine clearing ships. These would be escorted by ~ 50 x DD , DE & TB [similar to DE]. Germans surged their fleet while the UK had to rotate theirs so the full KM strength meets 1/3 of the RN strength.



[esl]Even if a given German group gets cut off in a British port, they can be expected to hang on to that port for weeks, forcing the brits to dispatch more and more forces to tie the Germans down.

Compare the logistics of Falmouth and Narvik for the British.

esl] [Every week the Germans could have sorited another 50,000 troops plus weeks of supples through those eastern ports inland. The RAF might have been able to hit damage 20 ships a week, but with a couple of hundred ships to draw on, it would take them over a month to reach the 50% thresh hold , the Germans felt was the cut off point.

-----------------------------------------------------

You are suggesting attacking across the north sea rather than the Channel? That is mad.

Thats what was planned and they would have forced the RAF/RN/RA to divert considerable force to contain these bridgheads. To make matters worse the Brandeberg regiment was to land on the west coast or Ireland to masquade as more invasion points, further diluting the UK defensive efforts and further confuse UK C3. Most of the German regimental groups had little or no airsupport.



[esl]Under ideal curcumstances , the KM would have surged their battleships & Battlecruisers plus Uboats into the North Atlantic weeks ahead of the main assault. Since they had replenishment at sea, they could raid the convoy routes for well over a month.

Considering the record of such sorties...

initally the were quite good.


[esl]It will not be long before the key naval ports of Royths, Lock Ewe, Clyde bank Portsmouth and even Scapaflow are underseige from the land side. I wonder how long these ports can function without a regular supply of fuel ammo and food. As it was UK could only stock pile a months worth of fuel, what happens to the RN/RAF when they run out of fuel, or even run low? Also as the germans raid inland they will increasingly occupy RAF airfields causing massive disloaction in the RAF.
----------------------------
Simply way too far north for the Germans to supply or cover by air, forces up there will be wiped out or scattered.

Again its highly unlikely the UK force had more than a few days combat supplies and their raw recruites would fare very poorly against the German vets ...again they don't need aircover to survive and the RAF will be fighting for its life over southern england. This way the germans can mount raids to take out RAF airfields in the north, preventing their reinforcing the south at critical times. Its called overwehlming your opponent with far more threats than he can deal with.



[esl]With German battle groups all up and down the coast, the flood of alerts and information into UKHQ would quickly overwhelm the british decisision cycle, leading to its collapse.
-------------------------------
The scattered battle groups will be unsupplyable,they won't be battle groups because they are not all armed, they will not be mobile unless the barges are filled with horses.

Not sure what your refereing to, since these are merchant ships filled with troops and light arty etc. The barges were reserved for the cross channel invasion which would follow later.




[esl] At that point the main invasion fleet of 3200 barges and boats escorted by hundreds of armed trawlers, would surge across the channel bringing the bulk of 4 korps [ 2 panzer & 2 infantry] .

I thought it was 1900 barges earlier? I do not see how you get tanks out of a barge.

I

It is hard to see this happening before 1941, and even that would be a nightmare.

???? I'm confused about what you mean, the 1900 barges included ~ 200 steamers and 600 ferries, which already had bow ramps to unload vehicluar loads, while ~ 100-200 of the rhine barges had been converted with bow ramps and aux power. These barges were hugh 5m wide and able to carry 200 ton loads. With a years prep ahead of the war, these would all have been powered with bow ramps.Given enough time its possible to double skin such barges and add a keel if needed. The Japs had already designed the definitive landing craft [ Dai Hatsu ] and used it in china in the mid 1930s. It would not be undreasonable to envisage a tech exchange along the lines of the one surrounding the Graf Zeppelin program...in return Germans could have med Panzer III & IV designs available to the Japs.

To escort those fleets of barges historically they could draw on 370 x 'V Boot', 'R Boot', 'S Boot'. With a years prep that figure could swell to > 600 such ' V/R/S boots'.

[JimmyJimJam]

self-explanatory, what do you guys think were the chances of it succeeding and it not succeeding, and how would it have been possible
Sealion succeeding is less likely than me dating Tyra Banks.

[Wendell]

Sealion succeeding is less likely than me dating Tyra Banks.
The problem with Sealion is that pople often pick the wrong POD in my view...

[Ivan Druzhkov]

The problem with Sealion is that pople often pick the wrong POD in my view...
Maybe if the Germans keep more of their WWI fleet it would be a bit easier. Of course, given how much the High Seas Fleet scared the crap out of British naval planners, I can't think of a good reason for Berlin to keep its navy after WWI.

Say...has anyone tried doing Sealion during WWI? Granted, the Germans wouldn't have tanks, but the naval power and lack of anti-shipping (indeed, any) airplanes ought to even the score a bit.

[Wozza]

Maybe if the Germans keep more of their WWI fleet it would be a bit easier. Of course, given how much the High Seas Fleet scared the crap out of British naval planners, I can't think of a good reason for Berlin to keep its navy after WWI.

Say...has anyone tried doing Sealion during WWI? Granted, the Germans wouldn't have tanks, but the naval power and lack of anti-shipping (indeed, any) airplanes ought to even the score a bit.

To keep their World War One fleet they might have to win World War One...
The main 30s PODs is the 1935 Anglo-German Naval Agreement. This is an event routinely ignored on this board.
Any breach of that agreement would radically change British behaviour.

I should have thought the reasons Germany did not try and invade Britain in world war one were fairly clear - they controlled only a relatively small stretch of the Channel coast and the British had massive naval superiority.

[Wozza]

Start prep time is 1938-39 as an annex to invasion of france ,so UK will not be any more prepared than the OTL. Remember Hitler forbade any preperations for war with the UK which is why little if anything was ready. such ' V/R/S boots'.

Esl this is getting too long! so I will not respond in detal.

btw: I am surprised you did not respond to my views on the historiography, which is something I find an interesting topic. Interested in your views that the German side has not been aired.

Your assertions in earlier preparation make all sorts of things theoretically possible.
The minor problem is that an invasion of France was only planned from October 1939, and the Manstein plan, offering total victory, not adopted until 1940. War with the west is simply not planned before then
If it had been Hitler would have had to breach the Anglo-German naval agreement, changing British policy dramatically.
Even if they do start collecting barges in 1939, it will
a: be obvious
b: take resources from something else. what did you have in mind?

Minor point: you have almost contradicted yourself over Narvik, at one point the German navy is learning the lessons at another not going, can't have both.

This has all the earmarks of a no counter-reaction AH: if the Germans spend a year preparing for this battle, and the Germans don't. they might win.

Well, most battles could have that said of them..

You have set optimum German disposition against real life British ones. The golden rule of good AH is surely that to every action there will be reaction??

[PMN1]

With out Norway Germany has 6 cruisers and 7 auxilary cruisers plus 50 sperrbrecher mine clearing ships. These would be escorted by ~ 50 x DD , DE & TB [similar to DE]. Germans surged their fleet while the UK had to rotate theirs so the full KM strength meets 1/3 of the RN strength.




Form what i've read, German action/inaction on Norway is down to the British, Hitler would have liked to not have to take action in Norway but Churchill's actions whilst at the Admiralty forced his hand - ironically they also set the scene for Churchill to replace Chamberlain.

[Tom_B]

To keep their World War One fleet they might have to win World War One...
The main 30s PODs is the 1935 Anglo-German Naval Agreement. This is an event routinely ignored on this board.
Any breach of that agreement would radically change British behaviour.

I should have thought the reasons Germany did not try and invade Britain in world war one were fairly clear - they controlled only a relatively small stretch of the Channel coast and the British had massive naval superiority.

The British were actually very much worried about invasion in the early months of the Great War. In nearly every account of FIrst Ypres I've read there is this idea that the Germans wanted the Channel Ports as jumping off points for an invasion of England. Also for a while in late 1914 the margin of superiority of the GF in terms of available worked up DN's was something like 18 (Audacious had been lost and 2-3 more were out for urgent maintenance) to 15 for HSF which is not overwhelming IMHO.

Tom

[Wozza]

The British were actually very much worried about invasion in the early months of the Great War. In nearly every account of FIrst Ypres I've read there is this idea that the Germans wanted the Channel Ports as jumping off points for an invasion of England. Also for a while in late 1914 the margin of superiority of the GF in terms of available worked up DN's was something like 18 (Audacious had been lost and 2-3 more were out for urgent maintenance) to 15 for HSF which is not overwhelming IMHO.

Tom

The issue for a landing is maintaning the flow of supplies though, for which cruisers and destroyers are the issue. In which the British superiority is overwhelming, despite endless worries about a shortage.

[Tom_B]

You would think the Admiralty would see things that way but if you read accounts of the time many people who should've know better were seriously worried about invasion and this caused the British Army to hold a significant portion of their divisions at home slowing the buildup in France (and the reinforcement of Gallipoli). I think Erksine Childers was partially responsible for this. Kitchener had a middle opinion. While he thought an outright invasion was unlikely he thought a hit and run infantry raid of battalion size was highly likely and he stationed the yeomanry squadrons with that in mind.

Falkenhayn was not thinking about invading. He wanted the Channel Ports so that resupply of the BEF would become more difficult.

[DMA]

Maybe if the Germans keep more of their WWI fleet it would be a bit easier. Of course, given how much the High Seas Fleet scared the crap out of British naval planners, I can't think of a good reason for Berlin to keep its navy after WWI.

Say...has anyone tried doing Sealion during WWI? Granted, the Germans wouldn't have tanks, but the naval power and lack of anti-shipping (indeed, any) airplanes ought to even the score a bit.


I wrote a AH called Invasion 1915. You can read it at Changing The Times ;)

[Thande]

I wrote a AH called Invasion 1914. You can read it at Changing The Times
I think I remember reading that. Was it the one where the Germans occupied Geordieland? :D

[DMA]

I think I remember reading that. Was it the one where the Germans occupied Geordieland? :D


Geordieland? :confused: This local slang for Newcastle (pardon my ignorance :o )

[Thande]

Geordieland? This local slang for Newcastle (pardon my ignorance )
That's right. The Geordies are the Newcastle tribe, locked in mortal struggle with their Sunderlander ("Mak'em") enemies.

And no-one else, even us fellow Northerners, can tell the difference between them for the life of us. :confused:

Landshark can probably give more details.

[DMA]

That's right. The Geordies are the Newcastle tribe, locked in mortal struggle with their Sunderlander ("Mak'em") enemies.

And no-one else, even us fellow Northerners, can tell the difference between them for the life of us. :confused:

Landshark can probably give more details.


So I take it you loved the idea that they were invaded by the Germans, eh? :D

[Thande]

So I take it you loved the idea that they were invaded by the Germans, eh?
Well they're always lording it over us that we rolled over to the Vikings while they resisted, so yeah. ;)

[DMA]

Well they're always lording it over us that we rolled over to the Vikings while they resisted, so yeah. ;)


Well I'm glad I made you happy.

BTW Sunderland gets invaded too ;)

[Wendell]

Maybe if the Germans keep more of their WWI fleet it would be a bit easier. Of course, given how much the High Seas Fleet scared the crap out of British naval planners, I can't think of a good reason for Berlin to keep its navy after WWI.

Say...has anyone tried doing Sealion during WWI? Granted, the Germans wouldn't have tanks, but the naval power and lack of anti-shipping (indeed, any) airplanes ought to even the score a bit.
My thought was that the Germans decide to continue their campaign against airbases and military facilities rather than changing over to civilian targets in September 1940.

[Soyuz]

I stand by my original position that the Germans should have cut a large part of the Arctic glaciers using U-boats, then it would sail south and be maneuvered by said U-boats into position in the English Channel. If they cut it the right size, the troops will be able to cover the water between the french coast to glacier and glacier to England with simple rafts. The thing itself is too large to be destroyed by bombers or battleships, even then they'll fall prey to the German aircraft stationed on the glacier. There, I said it, and I will repeat it every time a Sealion thread pops up.

[Faeelin]

There, I said it, and I will repeat it every time a Sealion thread pops up.

You think too small. Moses, who was Jewish, parted the Red Sea. Imagine what Aryans could do, if they could get their hands on the Ark of the Covenant (or whatever else you'd need).

[jolo]

I stand by my original position that the Germans should have cut a large part of the Arctic glaciers using U-boats, then it would sail south and be maneuvered by said U-boats into position in the English Channel. If they cut it the right size, the troops will be able to cover the water between the french coast to glacier and glacier to England with simple rafts. The thing itself is too large to be destroyed by bombers or battleships, even then they'll fall prey to the German aircraft stationed on the glacier. There, I said it, and I will repeat it every time a Sealion thread pops up.

Your idea has a little problem: If a few German subs can pull the glacier in one direction, a few British ships can pull it in another direction.

But it gave me another idea, which should be technologically possible in 1940: How about simply freezing the 40 000 x 1 000 m2 of the channel secretely? A chemical process, lots of liquid nitrogen or other substances, or lots of autonomous cooling devices is all that's needed (maybe a combination of those - but I suppose one method will prove to be much more effective than all the others in experiments). In the first phase, subs would lower the temperature in the area to a few degrees below zero, with little ice forming. In the second phase, subs lower the temperature far more, so that one big block forms. The ice sheet would have to be thick enough to carry the weight of the tanks and troops, not only to keep from braking under their weight. Sand, ash, saw dust, or the likes should be enough to get the necessary grip and reduce the visual profile of the sheet. The freezing would start in the night at the French coast, and continue at the speed of the German advance through the channel. Specially prepared tanks in front with trained crews flatten any cracks and smooth the surface. An advance force of subs, commandos, paratroopers, and so on, keeps the British from counter measures, together with measures to distract the British, like a fake landing attempt at another coast.

It could be done in late 1940, when the water is already pretty cold and German forces have been able to replenish their supplies.

Bad wheather, fog, and so on, would even be welcome in the situation, to cover the attack.

London would be overrun in the night the attack starts, with most of the command and administration still there.

[jolo]

The energy to be taken from the water would be astronomical. About 400 million tons of water have to be cooled by about 10 degrees (assuming a few cold december days cooling the water to 5 degrees - 9 degrees Celsius is normal at the time), past the melting point of salt water (-2 degrees Celsius). Air (nitrogen+oxygen) could be cooled to -225 degrees Celsius and released into the water.

I made a calculation:

400 000 000 t water

water from +5 to -5 degrees = 10 K
specific heat: 4168 J/kgK

air (nitrogen+oxygen) from -225 to -25 degrees = 200 K
specific heat: ca. 1000 J/kgK

400 billion kg water * 4168 J/kgK * 10 K = x billlion kg air * 1000 J/kgK * 200 K

x = (400*4168*10)/(1000*200) = 83.36 billion kg air

air (nitrogen+oxygen) from 15 to -225 degrees = 240 K
specific heat: ca. 1000 J/kgK

Q = 83.36 billion kg air * 1000 J/kgK * 240 K = 20 million billion J = 2*10^16 J

1 t coal = 2.929*10^9 J

if 1 J of energy is needed to reduce temperature by 1 J (very inefficient):

x t coal = (2*10^16)/(2.929*10^9) = 6 828 269 t coal

That's only a small part of the yearly production - therefore, the project is theoretically possible.

Correct me if there are any major mistakes.

Well isolated pipelines with long extensions for releasing the air might also be helpful with so much liquid air.

The timing has to be coordinated with the current - as little current as possible would be useful. Anchors could be used to keep the sheet from drifting away. Water pumps could be used to quickly fill any cracks with water (as long as cooling continues, the cold water will freeze quickly). A few pontoon bridges should also be carried along.

[Chingo360]

wow jolo just wow, i didnt think anybody would go so in depth about it:D

[jolo]

wow jolo just wow, i didnt think anybody would go so in depth about it:D

It just bugged me to find out whether it's possible or not - and when I found out I thought I could also share my results with the rest here (and let you guys find any flaws in it...).

Maybe it'll be called the jolo-strategy if a country ever uses it... :D

[Chingo360]

well good job... could you do it with anything else??:confused: :D

[jolo]

well good job... could you do it with anything else??:confused: :D

What do you mean?

[Chingo360]

you should be a scientific analyst with that kind of skill is what i meant

[jolo]

you should be a scientific analyst with that kind of skill is what i meant

I'm not, unluckily...

But this could be done by any student who has just had a few hours of thermodynamics.

[PMN1]

The energy to be taken from the water would be astronomical. About 400 million tons of water have to be cooled by about 10 degrees (assuming a few cold december days cooling the water to 5 degrees - 9 degrees Celsius is normal at the time), past the melting point of salt water (-2 degrees Celsius). Air (nitrogen+oxygen) could be cooled to -225 degrees Celsius and released into the water.

I made a calculation:

400 000 000 t water

water from +5 to -5 degrees = 10 K
specific heat: 4168 J/kgK

air (nitrogen+oxygen) from -225 to -25 degrees = 200 K
specific heat: ca. 1000 J/kgK

400 billion kg water * 4168 J/kgK * 10 K = x billlion kg air * 1000 J/kgK * 200 K

x = (400*4168*10)/(1000*200) = 83.36 billion kg air

air (nitrogen+oxygen) from 15 to -225 degrees = 240 K
specific heat: ca. 1000 J/kgK

Q = 83.36 billion kg air * 1000 J/kgK * 240 K = 20 million billion J = 2*10^16 J

1 t coal = 2.929*10^9 J

if 1 J of energy is needed to reduce temperature by 1 J (very inefficient):

x t coal = (2*10^16)/(2.929*10^9) = 6 828 269 t coal

That's only a small part of the yearly production - therefore, the project is theoretically possible.

Correct me if there are any major mistakes.

Well isolated pipelines with long extensions for releasing the air might also be helpful with so much liquid air.

The timing has to be coordinated with the current - as little current as possible would be useful. Anchors could be used to keep the sheet from drifting away. Water pumps could be used to quickly fill any cracks with water (as long as cooling continues, the cold water will freeze quickly). A few pontoon bridges should also be carried along.


Alternatively, you could develop Pykrete although it wouldn't be Pykrete unless Geoffrey Pyke developed it before the war....

[jolo]

Alternatively, you could develop Pykrete although it wouldn't be Pykrete unless Geoffrey Pyke developed it before the war....

Interesting - just adding a little bit of saw dust, and the whole thing can hardly be damaged by guns. I suppose we don't even need the whole 14%, and can also apply the saw dust solely to the top 10-50 cm by distributing it into the freezing water with planes or boats.

The material could also be used to create a swimming isle, with lots of strategic possibilities. That would also take less than 6 million tons of coal to make. :)

[Chingo360]

ok could we get back on the subject of

SEALIONS

[Redbeard]

Well, a lot of things will NOT be a problem for the Germans:

The British Army
Hardly had any heavy equipment and only little training + deficient doctrines. Brooke was very concerned about leadership level at Division and above.

Gathering the vessels for the invasion fleet
To me it appears like the KM intentionally obstructed the planning, and anyway had very little imagination. The ferry fleet in Denmark alone, which was under German control from april 1940, would have sufficed to land and supply a 10 Division invasion force.

Crossing the channel
People do it every day, some even swim across.

Logistics
Prefabricated ramps for the ferries, scutling of old ships as breakwaters and some engineers connecting the ramp with the roadnet would have provided excellent logistics "over the beach". One "standard" railway/car ferry will carry 100+ 3 ton trucks which is equivalent to the daily need of a Division on offensive stance. With 30 minuttes interval between the ferries you have plenty of time to unload (can be done in 5 minuttes, another 10 to load empty trucks for the returntrip), and even with only one "beach-ramp" in function you will need it to operate only three hours each day to supply ten Divisions. That makes it easier to adapt to the tide.

Defending the bridgehead
The British Army will not be able to launch any large co-ordinated counter attack but the RAF is likely to throw everything they have. But if taking the same AA force that defended the bridge over the Meuse at Gaullier in May (six AA battalions with 300 guns total) the RAF is unlikely to gain results, but will take heavy losses. The Bombercommand operational total is hardly above 200 planes (IIRC 150).


BUT ONE BIG PROBLEM REMAINS...and that is gaining and keeping the seacontrol over the crossing and landing zone. And that seacontrol is simply necessary - no matter the rest.

The KM was far from having the strength for that, and a prewar PoD making a bigger/earlier German naval programme will have UK say STOP to Herr Hitler years before. It is tempting to deploy the Italian Navy for the invasion, but that will require some disastrous results for the British in the Med. in June/July and a Spainsh entry into the war and taking Gibraltar. But even with the combined German/Italian/Spanish navy vs. a RN with the Med. Fleet wiped out I'm not sure it is enough.

The most important PoD probably would have to be in the Luftwaffe. In OTL by 1940 it had a very limited anti-ship capacity, stemming from lack of both suitable weapons and tactics. Getting that in time probably requires another C-in-C than Göring (Bluetooth's formidable TL comes to mind), but probably could be carried through without awakening the allies too much. Basically it requires a significant part of the medium bombers to be trained for torpedoattack and the Stukas being supplied with heavy AP bombs (and trained for sea attack). Plus not at least Luftwaffe and KM training co-operation. My guess is that about 1/3 (300-400) of the LW medium bombers will have to be able to perform torpedoattack to be sure. Not a small effort but possible. The biggest problem is that it requires the Germans seriously planning to go to war with UK, and apparently the Germans didn't seriously plan anything - not even Blitzkrieg!

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

[Unknown]

For a timeline on a potential Sealion, read the timeline Sealion Fails by Steven Rogers. That had a PoD of the British invading Norway first, leading to disaster for the RN, and even then, the invasion failed. It is located at the website http://www.geocities.com/drammos/sealionfails.

[Unknown]

Sorry, that should be http://www.geocities.com/drammos/sealion1.html.

[Chingo360]

you can basically read any history book if you want to know that it failed

[jolo]

Sorry to bother again. :)

I just thought about combining the 2 methods (Pykrete and street of ice).

If the ice street were built of pykrete, in the middle of a minefield laid in the days before (whereby the mines in the middle are only fakes to be used for anchoring the street and as markers), it could be done at a dimension of 1 x 100 x 40 000 m3. That would just require one hundredth the coolant and energy - 70 000 tons of coal, 830 000 tons of liquid air. To avoid melting the ice under the tracks, the tanks might have small containers up front leaking some liquid air (if and when needed). That might also be a suitable measure to freeze any holes caused by enemy artillery. There may also be containers with sand or other suitable materials for better traction.

Torpedos or subs specially built for the operation would shape the pykrete so that there are caverns in the street through which the liquid air and saw dust are pumped from ashore. Cables, hoses, or the likes might be used to help stabilize the construction and conduct the needed liquids (if needed). Several starting points (small streets) would merge into a single (big) street. In the beginning, the street would be wider than at the end, as the parts that loose pressure during "growing" are discontinued. The sides would be done twice as thick or with a wall so that they form a protection against waves sweeping vehicles from the street. The street would have a profile on the underside which makes sure that any exiting liquid air quickly freezes surrounding water along the street, so that the construction is self-repairing to a degree. Pressure, saw dust concentration, temperature, and so on are optimized for that function. Pioneers are trained to quickly complete such repairs, especially to make sure the hydrogen keeps flowing. They also repair any leaks, puncture the pipes so that liquid air leaks under the street to make the ice thicker where needed, and flood the streets with additional water to make them thicker. The water pumps may be mounted on (armored) vehicles which also transport sand or other useful material for better traction. With enough large enough caverns, and due to the liquid air turning into gas, the pressure can be kept pretty low.

The "growing" of the street should progress at a rate of 10-20 km/h (about 5-10 knots afaik), thus reaching Britain after about 2-4 hours. The street building starts with nightfall, the troops travel with 40 km/h once the street has sufficiently progressed to reach the British shore at the same time.

Special subs might be arriving at the same time to release additional liquid air to freeze a larger part of the coastal waters, for easier attacking.

All phantastic, all untested, but (except maybe of some of the minor details) could be possible.

[PMN1]

Sorry to bother again. :)

I just thought about combining the 2 methods (Pykrete and street of ice).

If the ice street were built of pykrete, in the middle of a minefield laid in the days before (whereby the mines in the middle are only fakes to be used for anchoring the street and as markers), it could be done at a dimension of 1 x 100 x 40 000 m3. That would just require one hundredth the coolant and energy - 70 000 tons of coal, 830 000 tons of liquid air. To avoid melting the ice under the tracks, the tanks might have small containers up front leaking some liquid air (if and when needed). That might also be a suitable measure to freeze any holes caused by enemy artillery. There may also be containers with sand or other suitable materials for better traction.

Torpedos or subs specially built for the operation would shape the pykrete so that there are caverns in the street through which the liquid air and saw dust are pumped from ashore. Cables, hoses, or the likes might be used to help stabilize the construction and conduct the needed liquids (if needed). Several starting points (small streets) would merge into a single (big) street. In the beginning, the street would be wider than at the end, as the parts that loose pressure during "growing" are discontinued. The sides would be done twice as thick or with a wall so that they form a protection against waves sweeping vehicles from the street. The street would have a profile on the underside which makes sure that any exiting liquid air quickly freezes surrounding water along the street, so that the construction is self-repairing to a degree. Pressure, saw dust concentration, temperature, and so on are optimized for that function. Pioneers are trained to quickly complete such repairs, especially to make sure the hydrogen keeps flowing. They also repair any leaks, puncture the pipes so that liquid air leaks under the street to make the ice thicker where needed, and flood the streets with additional water to make them thicker. The water pumps may be mounted on (armored) vehicles which also transport sand or other useful material for better traction. With enough large enough caverns, and due to the liquid air turning into gas, the pressure can be kept pretty low.

The "growing" of the street should progress at a rate of 10-20 km/h (about 5-10 knots afaik), thus reaching Britain after about 2-4 hours. The street building starts with nightfall, the troops travel with 40 km/h once the street has sufficiently progressed to reach the British shore at the same time.

Special subs might be arriving at the same time to release additional liquid air to freeze a larger part of the coastal waters, for easier attacking.

All phantastic, all untested, but (except maybe of some of the minor details) could be possible.

Oh boy, i've created a monster - apologies to everyone else...........

:eek:

[jolo]

Oh boy, i've created a monster - apologies to everyone else...........

:eek:

Don't worry - after a few more such threads with the unlimited possibilities of pykrete (skyscrapers? bridges? planes?), I should be finished... :)

[Tony Williams]

You would think the Admiralty would see things that way but if you read accounts of the time many people who should've know better were seriously worried about invasion and this caused the British Army to hold a significant portion of their divisions at home slowing the buildup in France (and the reinforcement of Gallipoli). I think Erksine Childers was partially responsible for this.
Ah yes, his 1903 novel 'The Riddle of the Sands', which featured a planned German invasion. IMO one the best adventure/spy thrillers ever written - they even made quite a reasonable film of it in the 1970s.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[Wyboy26]

Has anyone read the new book "Invasion 1940" The author states lots of reasons why Sealion wouldn't be successful

The Royal Navy Destroyers would either swamp and gun down the tug boats towing the barges across the channel, even if the germans laid down minefields, the Royal Navy would accept the loses to sink the invasion fleet

[DMA]

Has anyone read the new book "Invasion 1940" The author states lots of reasons why Sealion wouldn't be successful

The Royal Navy Destroyers would either swamp and gun down the tug boats towing the barges across the channel, even if the germans laid down minefields, the Royal Navy would accept the loses to sink the invasion fleet


Do you know who's the author/publisher?

[PMN1]

Monday 6th March Channel4 UK

http://www.diverse.tv/programme.aspx?id=110

Programme 2 TX 21:00pm Monday 6 March 2006


We know more about the Roman occupation of Britain, than we know about much of our recent military past. Now Francis Pryor unearths telling clues that reveal just how Britain was defended, and reveals the vast scale of the fortifications that dominated this country’s landscape.
Francis investigates an extraordinary recreation of Hitler’s original plans to invade Britain. A unique war game was run at the Military Academy at Sandhurst. It pitted German officers who had planned the real 1940’s invasion against their former enemies. Reuniting Battle of Britain Aces with their Luftwaffe rivals. Francis Pryor retraces the steps, and reveals the result, of what would have happened if Germany had invaded Britain in 1940.

[Chingo360]

oh no its back!

[PMN1]

oh no its back!
Its a classic repeater....

btw, how are you getting on with the pykrete

:)

[SionEwig]

Monday 6th March Channel4 UK


http://www.diverse.tv/programme.aspx?id=110

Programme 2 TX 21:00pm Monday 6 March 2006


We know more about the Roman occupation of Britain, than we know about much of our recent military past. Now Francis Pryor unearths telling clues that reveal just how Britain was defended, and reveals the vast scale of the fortifications that dominated this country’s landscape.
Francis investigates an extraordinary recreation of Hitler’s original plans to invade Britain. A unique war game was run at the Military Academy at Sandhurst. It pitted German officers who had planned the real 1940’s invasion against their former enemies. Reuniting Battle of Britain Aces with their Luftwaffe rivals. Francis Pryor retraces the steps, and reveals the result, of what would have happened if Germany had invaded Britain in 1940.


That looks very interesting! Especially the war game part. Wish I could get the show on this side of the pond.

[Chingo360]

Its a classic repeater....

btw, how are you getting on with the pykrete

:)

what are you talking about?

[Berra]

Since a sucsessful Sealion is to wierd, I give it a go. Inspired by Fellatios porno thread.

The problem is RAF and RN, right? hitler offers the German babes! RAF and RN parties while Germans invade. Its a longshot but hey, its this mammal again.

[PMN1]

what are you talking about?

Aplogies, its Jolo who's playing with pykrete.

:o

[Chingo360]

Guess what's back!

[DMA]

Guess what's back!


DMA steals a Japanese harpoon & shoots the Sealion through the head before it can take its first breath... ;)

[Thande]

Chingo, put down the thread. Back away from the thread and let it die.

DMA, please refrain from God Moding in the Discussion forums, or preferably anywhere really. Filthy habit. ;)

[Flocculencio]

The offing was barred by a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the uttermost ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky, seemed to lead into the heart of an immense darkness.

[DMA]

DMA, please refrain from God Moding in the Discussion forums, or preferably anywhere really. Filthy habit. ;)


Ok then, I'll steal a Canadian SealClub instead of the Japanese whale harpoon, you know the one that they use to kill baby seals with, & use that instead on the Sealion ;)

[Keenir]

Speaking of which, let's test your hypothesis out…


http://www.burnszilla.com/photos/sfphotos/images/san_fran_sea_lion_pup.jpg

http://www.victorialodging.com/marine-ecotour/images/california_sea_lion.jpg

http://users.sdsc.edu/~hannes/html/pictures/animals/images/sea_lion.jpg


Aren't they just so cute :)

yes; but those aren't cartoons.

:D

[DMA]

yes; but those aren't cartoons.

:D


And yes they are cute. Maybe we should start using those clubs on those bad Canadians instead! ;)