America's greatest Friend and ally: Russia

[Hermanubis]

Come up with a Scenario where the Greatest ally of the United States is and has been throu out most of its been history Russia

[Xen]

This isnt too far off, during the ACW Russia looked to the US for an alliance against Britain. Russia wanted Constantinople but the British didnt want them having it, Britain looked like they were going to support the CSA. Russian ships even were stationed in American west coast harbors with orders to protect them against any aggressors. However Lincoln didnt want to anger Britain and kindly rejected the alliance. Perhaps if the Trent Affair led to war with Britain, the US would have joined this alliance. Britain would have to choose who was the greater threat, Russia in Constantinople or the US dominating North America.

[Shadow Knight]

Well the US and Russia had pretty good relations throughout history (See letters from Jefferson to the Tsar and the support of the US from Russia during the Civil War.) with only the coming of Communism souring the relations (not a whole lot of areas of conflict as their spheres of influence were not anywhere near each other).

So building off of that maybe Russia uses its influence with Britain during the war of 1812 (Europe being busy with Napoleon and all.) to help the Americans get a peaceful negotiation earlier and maybe with some modest gains.

Or maybe with a French or British interference in the Civil War Russia comes to the aid of the US by starting some stuff in Europe or Central Asia to distract them.

[Edit] Appears Xen beat me to it with the second scenerio. :)

[Xen]

Well the US and Russia had pretty good relations throughout history (See letters from Jefferson to the Tsar and the support of the US from Russia during the Civil War.) with only the coming of Communism souring the relations (not a whole lot of areas of conflict as their spheres of influence were not anywhere near each other).

So building off of that maybe Russia uses its influence with Britain during the war of 1812 (Europe being busy with Napoleon and all.) to help the Americans get a peaceful negotiation earlier and maybe with some modest gains.

Or maybe with a French or British interference in the Civil War Russia comes to the aid of the US by starting some stuff in Europe or Central Asia to distract them.

[Edit] Appears Xen beat me to it with the second scenerio. :)


Your first scenario is right on too, Russia was encouraging Britain to make peace with the US, and for it to be an honorable peace that wouldnt humiliate the young country.

[David S Poepoe]

This isnt too far off, during the ACW Russia looked to the US for an alliance against Britain. Russia wanted Constantinople but the British didnt want them having it, Britain looked like they were going to support the CSA. Russian ships even were stationed in American west coast harbors with orders to protect them against any aggressors. However Lincoln didnt want to anger Britain and kindly rejected the alliance. Perhaps if the Trent Affair led to war with Britain, the US would have joined this alliance. Britain would have to choose who was the greater threat, Russia in Constantinople or the US dominating North America.

Not this myth again. Russian naval forces were sent on 'goodwill' tours of American ports because of the possibility of an Anglo-Russian war over the Polish uprising of the 1860s. The Russian Admiralty dispatched the warships to foreign ports since they figured that they would be hunted down in the eventuality of a war with Britain and Russian naval power could be preserved, possibly for commerce raiding, in neutral ports.

I guess to this historical incident there are two POVs to it. That of the Russians, which saw it one way, and that of the Americans, who saw it another.

[Shadow Knight]

I concur but the Russians still did have good relations with the US. I'd imagine the only reason Russia would go to war with GB, no matter how good their relations with the US were, in the 1860's would be if the British declared war or they saw some gain the could get elsewhere (Central Asia?).

Of course if the British fleet is away the European powers will play. So expect if the British are involved in the US Civil War (Trent Affair) that Europe might find it a good time to settle some scores.

[Wendell]

The U.S. sits out of World War I. The Germans win that war as a result (Or, they win the war ealier somehow, but Russia still collapses), and the U.S. backs White forces, ensuring that the Communists don't take power. A U.S.-Russia alliance results due to mutual suspicions of Germany and possibly Britain?

[Paul Spring]

Russia gets a Tsar who is both more able and more reform-minded than Nicholas II at the end of the 19th century. At the same time, Britain doesn't draw as close to France and Russia as in OTL. When WWI breaks out, Britain stays neutral. Germany and Austria Hungary defeat France and Russia, who agree to sign a humiliating peace to prevent unrest at home and in their defeated armies from expanding into possible revolution. After the war, Britain and Germany draw closer economically and politically. Russia and France both have governments that want to reverse their previous defeat. The US sees Japan, Britain's ally, growing stronger and stronger in the Pacific, and German and British economic interests growing stronger in Latin America and the Caribbean which the US thinks of as its own sphere of influence. Russia, France, and the USA gradually draw together due to mutual suspicion and hostility toward Germany, Britain, and Japan.

[Hermanubis]

^That sounds like an interesting scenario

[Tizoc]

Another scenario:
1. CSA survives=wins the Civil War with the help of UK
2. CSA and UK forge an alliance
3. Prussia proceeds as in OTL till 1888 (start of Wilhelm II's reign - i hope i got the date right)
4. USA and Republic of France forge an alliance
5. Germany has a MUCH better emperor than Wilhelm II, who makes an alliance with UK against France
6. USA, France and Russia create the Entente
7. UK, CSA, Germany, Austro-Hungary and Italy create the anti-Entente

Have a nice World War:D

[Tom_B]

Grey Wolf was fond of TL's in which US and Tsarist RUssia formed an AntiBritish alliance.

[Shadow Knight]

Grey Wolf was fond of TL's in which US and Tsarist RUssia formed an AntiBritish alliance.

True, he was/is found of plenty of monarchies and the odd lesbian appearing every now and then...damn but his TLs were good.

[Floid]

Another scenario:
1. CSA survives=wins the Civil War with the help of UK
2. CSA and UK forge an alliance
3. Prussia proceeds as in OTL till 1888 (start of Wilhelm II's reign - i hope i got the date right)
4. USA and Republic of France forge an alliance
5. Germany has a MUCH better emperor than Wilhelm II, who makes an alliance with UK against France
6. USA, France and Russia create the Entente
7. UK, CSA, Germany, Austro-Hungary and Italy create the anti-Entente

Have a nice World War:DThe anti-Entente would so win that war. I like this TL, you should work on it. :)

[robertp6165]

The anti-Entente would so win that war. I like this TL, you should work on it. :)

The scenario is amazingly similar to the one I used in my THE BLACK AND THE GRAY timeline. And in that timeline, the anti-Entente (styled "The Grand Alliance") did win the war.

[Landshark]

Another scenario:
1. CSA survives=wins the Civil War with the help of UK
2. CSA and UK forge an alliance
3. Prussia proceeds as in OTL till 1888 (start of Wilhelm II's reign - i hope i got the date right)
4. USA and Republic of France forge an alliance
5. Germany has a MUCH better emperor than Wilhelm II, who makes an alliance with UK against France
6. USA, France and Russia create the Entente
7. UK, CSA, Germany, Austro-Hungary and Italy create the anti-Entente

Have a nice World War:D

Why the Hell do we always get stuck with the frikking Confederacy!?!

[Wendell]

Why the Hell do we always get stuck with the frikking Confederacy!?!
Because you guys provided moral support for their seditious cause in our timeline?

[Max Sinister]

I think the war wouldn't be that decisive... the anti-entente can kick France's and Russia's butt in Europe, but OTOH the US can easily take Canada, and should be able to hold off the CSA. They should even be able to spare some troops for France.

[Superdude]

Russia gets a Tsar who is both more able and more reform-minded than Nicholas II at the end of the 19th century. At the same time, Britain doesn't draw as close to France and Russia as in OTL. When WWI breaks out, Britain stays neutral. Germany and Austria Hungary defeat France and Russia, who agree to sign a humiliating peace to prevent unrest at home and in their defeated armies from expanding into possible revolution. After the war, Britain and Germany draw closer economically and politically. Russia and France both have governments that want to reverse their previous defeat. The US sees Japan, Britain's ally, growing stronger and stronger in the Pacific, and German and British economic interests growing stronger in Latin America and the Caribbean which the US thinks of as its own sphere of influence. Russia, France, and the USA gradually draw together due to mutual suspicion and hostility toward Germany, Britain, and Japan.


I was writing a timeline almost exactly like that, but I didn't get any comments on how to make it better.

[Jason]

Because you guys provided moral support for their seditious cause in our timeline?

I do get tired of this one you know. Whilst it is true that there were some in the british establishment who gave some limited support to the CSA, there wasn't any real chance of the Brits doing anything that would see the rebellion succeed. A lot of people ignore the role of 'mob power' in British politics at this time, the average person was pro-north (because that's where they had relatives)so there would have been major riots if there was any policy which was seen as harming their relatives and even those who expressed sympathy for the south saw they as wrong (largely because of the slavery issue). It must also be remembered that Queen Vic hated the south for their rebellion and swore she would never support any decision by her government that actively aided the south. In fact if the leaders of GB and the USA hadn't have been such idiots, then the problems thrown up by the GB 'support' for the south could have been sorted out.

Going back to the original idea, how about (shock horror) a suggestion that doesn't make the Brits the bad guys? Maybe Japan opening up sooner and becoming a threat?

[Wendell]

I do get tired of this one you know. Whilst it is true that there were some in the british establishment who gave some limited support to the CSA, there wasn't any real chance of the Brits doing anything that would see the rebellion succeed. A lot of people ignore the role of 'mob power' in British politics at this time, the average person was pro-north (because that's where they had relatives)so there would have been major riots if there was any policy which was seen as harming their relatives and even those who expressed sympathy for the south saw they as wrong (largely because of the slavery issue). It must also be remembered that Queen Vic hated the south for their rebellion and swore she would never support any decision by her government that actively aided the south. In fact if the leaders of GB and the USA hadn't have been such idiots, then the problems thrown up by the GB 'support' for the south could have been sorted out.

Going back to the original idea, how about (shock horror) a suggestion that doesn't make the Brits the bad guys? Maybe Japan opening up sooner and becoming a threat?
Britain got itself tangled into the traitor's web all on its own, without the help of anyone in the U.S. government.

[Jason]

Britain got itself tangled into the traitor's web all on its own, without the help of anyone in the U.S. government.

think we'd better stop this one now mate or I cna see us getting silly and nasty towards each other:)

[Wendell]

think we'd better stop this one now mate or I cna see us getting silly and nasty towards each other:)
Agreed. In all seriousness, I think we could get the Yanks, Russians, and Brits on the same side....

[Hermanubis]

, how about (shock horror) a suggestion that doesn't make the Brits the bad guys?
But you guys make such good badguys! Haven’t you seen Star Wars? :p

[Hermanubis]

Agreed. In all seriousness, I think we could get the Yanks, Russians, and Brits on the same side....
Getting Germany and France on the same side is the hard part...

[Jason]

Agreed. In all seriousness, I think we could get the Yanks, Russians, and Brits on the same side....

Interesting idea! I'm trying to remember my 19th C Chinese history, they tried to open up and modernise at some stage, I think it started in 1860s, but unlike Japan it wasn't too successful-wasn't there a brief war with Japan around 1880 when China lost most of its new modern fleet?

How about a resurgent China, modernising, say from around 1840 or 1830, that starts to be seen as a threat to all three nations Pacific interests. Perhaps if we go for 1830 and give China a rapid modernisaion along the lines of Japan and say China starts to get friendly with who ever the most powerful Afghan prince/king is. That worries both GB and Russia and they start to see a common foe and the need for some sort of understanding, perhaps even leading to an avoidance of the Crimean War.

China then becomes a threat to the USA as well as its fleet starts to expand, maybe China starts to look to establishing bases in the mid Pacific, even going as fair as either pruchasing part of the Phillipines or even invading (there was a Chinese attack on Manilla soemtime early in the 18th C, not sure why though). That worries the USA and so a triple allaince starts to emerge to counter the yellow peril? Tie all this in with a desire in China, perhaps a Boxer-like outlook, to remove the hated barbarians from their lands and liberate all those neighbouring lands who once were 'free' under the 'protection' of the Empire?

[Wendell]

Interesting idea! I'm trying to remember my 19th C Chinese history, they tried to open up and modernise at some stage, I think it started in 1860s, but unlike Japan it wasn't too successful-wasn't there a brief war with Japan around 1880 when China lost most of its new modern fleet?

How about a resurgent China, modernising, say from around 1840 or 1830, that starts to be seen as a threat to all three nations Pacific interests. Perhaps if we go for 1830 and give China a rapid modernisaion along the lines of Japan and say China starts to get friendly with who ever the most powerful Afghan prince/king is. That worries both GB and Russia and they start to see a common foe and the need for some sort of understanding, perhaps even leading to an avoidance of the Crimean War.

China then becomes a threat to the USA as well as its fleet starts to expand, maybe China starts to look to establishing bases in the mid Pacific, even going as fair as either pruchasing part of the Phillipines or even invading (there was a Chinese attack on Manilla soemtime early in the 18th C, not sure why though). That worries the USA and so a triple allaince starts to emerge to counter the yellow peril? Tie all this in with a desire in China, perhaps a Boxer-like outlook, to remove the hated barbarians from their lands and liberate all those neighbouring lands who once were 'free' under the 'protection' of the Empire?
All leading to a Paris, Berlin, Nanking Alliance?

[Jason]

All leading to a Paris, Berlin, Nanking Alliance?

Possibly, though I suspect that as I see the Chinese keeping their 'barbarian' attitude to Europeans (if anythign it gets stronger) that as the Chinese start to develop themselves, in terms of industraliastion etc, they decline to ally themselevs with the French and Prussians. In fact I am starting to imagine that as the Anglo-Russian-USA partnership starts to grow a delegation (lets say French for arguments sake) going to the Imperial Court to suggest such an alliance but it all fails because the Chinese will only consider it if the French become their vassals and give up her protectoates/colonies in Annam, etc. In fact we could even have that as the origins of the alliance.

Lets say we have this resurgent China (modernising since 1830) that is worrying Russia, GB and the USA but not so much as they are yet willing to ally but at the same time aren't willing to confront each other incase it then gives China a chance to benefit. in the early 1850s the Chinese, whose international posturing has been peaceful so fair, decide that now is the time to strike and show the barbarians that they are back and determined to make the Far East 'free' again under their 'protection' and strike at the French colonies in what in OTL becomes 'French Indo-China'; I know France had a portectorate over annam from the mid 1700s at least. I doubt the French were overly strong out there and are quickly defeated. this wakes all three up and they realise that here is a real threat. Gb starts to look at its defecnes in India, Australia, Western Canada, New Zealand and Singapore, Russi at its Pacific provinces and the USA at it pacific seaboard.

there could be ramifications back in Europe, given as it's just after the 1848 revolution in France perhaps the 2nd Republic is now tainted as losing the Eastern Empire (coudl we see a Nappy III sooner?).

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

in the early 1850s the Chinese, whose international posturing has been peaceful so fair, decide that now is the time to strike and show the barbarians that they are back and determined to make the Far East 'free' again under their 'protection' and strike at the French colonies in what in OTL becomes 'French Indo-China'; I know France had a portectorate over annam from the mid 1700s at least. I doubt the French were overly strong out there and are quickly defeated. this wakes all three up and they realise that here is a real threat. Gb starts to look at its defecnes in India, Australia, Western Canada, New Zealand and Singapore, Russi at its Pacific provinces and the USA at it pacific seaboard.

there could be ramifications back in Europe, given as it's just after the 1848 revolution in France perhaps the 2nd Republic is now tainted as losing the Eastern Empire (coudl we see a Nappy III sooner?).

France didn't have any colonies in Indo-China (long-lasting, anyway) until it captured Da Nang in the late 1850s. I thing you'll have to reschedule the whole thing.

[Wendell]

Getting Germany and France on the same side is the hard part...
It's hard, but not impossible, especially if enemies form around them.

[Jason]

France didn't have any colonies in Indo-China (long-lasting, anyway) until it captured Da Nang in the late 1850s. I thing you'll have to reschedule the whole thing.

I'm sure that Annam agreed to become a 'protectorate' from the mid 1720s? However happily accept I could well be wrong :) Perhaps that's the clash, the French try to establish colonies in the late 1850s the Chinese drive them out?

Now there was the Arrow War of 1858-60 when the French and Brits attacked China following some silly dispute (a british flag being torn, how lucky we are the modern world doesn't get worked up over such minor things:rolleyes: ) and the Chinese got stuffed really. Maybe if we change this slightly and the Chinese, now rearmed, hold their own and also drive the French out of their new colonies in Indo-China. The French give up and concentrate their empire-building efforts elsewhere. GB is of course annoyed it couldn't defeat the Chinese and starts to realise there is a new threat in the East and starts to look for allies.

Russia did in OTL seize a lot fo territory in 1850s from China, not sure when in the 1850s but at some stage. Lets say they try and against our revitalised China they fail.

It is now 1862 and China decides that it is time to show it is again a power in the east by seizing a long established European colony. The target is all important. For propaganda reasons they want to seize somewhere that China has either previously ruled or at least had some interest in. They decide not to attack either the Dutch or British colonies nearby, both are reasonably strong colonial powers and esp in the case of the Brits, reinforcements are nearby. They toy with retaking Macau but decide not to (perhaps we can say that the Portuegese have been good middle men and helped the Chinese modernise). Then someone recalls that in 18th Century the Chinese had attacked Manilla, really their last great naval 'foreign adventure' and Spain is now a weak colonial power. So a large Chinese fleet and accompaning army arrives in the Phillipines and soon takes the whole place. The USA is currently too distracted by its own civil war to pay much attention but come 1865 and peace the government suddenly realises there is this new threat, esp given there are also now (as OTL) a lot of chinese working in the USA on railroads etc, some of whom are there to gain technological knowledge to take back to the modernising empire and some may be out-and-out spies.

The USA realises it needs allies and soon ids Russia as a good bet. The Russian feel the same way. GB is also growing concerned-perhaps we get a pro-Chinese strongman in Afghanistan (no idea if it was possible) and so it soon becomes clear that they and Russia also have a common threat. Russia and GB form an 'entente' to counter any further Chinese expansion in this direction and soon afterwards USA, Russia and GB come to an agreement to counter the Chinese in the Pacific.

Ok, this is a rushed idea so pull apart!