WI Jesus of Nazareth never born?

[tom]

Well, what would the world be like? WouldTHIS make us Mithraic?

[Norman]

Tom-
Anything is possible, but remember that Christianity and Mithrism were only two of a whole bunch of religions competing for the attentionof the Romans.

[TeddyBear]

Consider the time period, the hebrews had been looking for a messiah for centuries, and they were attempting to fight/ignore/live with Roman occupation.
John the Baptist was considered to beh the messiah at one point, but said something like 'i prepare for the one that comes after me'.

It is quite possible that the hellenist faction of judaism that becomes christianity (christ being derived from the greek for king) could have coalesced around John the Baptist, or Simon the Zealot (who was a champion of resisting Roman rule) or even someone on the Sanhedrin council.

I do find it quite interesting that the New Testament of the christian Bible covers only about a month of the live of Jesus, and the Gospels that cover that was not even writtten by the man himself. The rest of the book is focused on the works of the disciples, whose writings and letters made up the character of hellenist judaism/orthodox christianity/catholic church for the first century or so.

[Velasco]

Why is that interesting? Four separate biographies written by eye-witnesses or on second-hand account of eye-witness written within a generation is almost ASB - compare how many similar sources we have for Alexander the Great and various others.

[Lord Grattan]

Well, what would the world be like? WouldTHIS make us Mithraic?

Two recent threads might shed some light the topic ...

Jesus Was Never Born:
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=222756

Jesus Christ Dies At Child Birth:
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=217831

[CandyDragon]

Two recent threads might shed some light the topic ...

Jesus Was Never Born:
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=222756

Jesus Christ Dies At Child Birth:
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=217831

Maybe there should be an index of threads like this, just like they have about seamammal threads in the Post 1900 forum.

[scholar]

Why is that interesting? Four separate biographies written by eye-witnesses or on second-hand account of eye-witness written within a generation is almost ASB - compare how many similar sources we have for Alexander the Great and various others.
No.

While it is true a number of famous people had their biographies recorded long after their death inside the west, inside the East most of the biographies of important individuals actually were being written near or a few years after their demise. In particular the SGZ was written by Chen Shou, a contemporary historian who wrote his works based on already written court sponsored biographies. There is no reason that four simple biographies written withing a generation of the events that define their religion and beliefs would be ASB. A number of Holy Texts, containing far more words, were written in less time.

[LSCatilina]

Why ASB? Two words : Flavius Josephus.

Basically, no mention of Jesus or any equivalent religious leader, well except the parts we know for sure being added by Christians.

Or, and "divine powers", "son of God", etc. If you're believing in it, it's okay but it's still ASB by definition.

[Sidheach]

Why do people ask the same question? I seriously don't think we should have these discussions about Semi-Mythical people at the centre of a religion it never really goes anywhere.

[Peder_Wessel]

Wow...talk about necromancing?

[HeWhoIsMe]

Well, what would the world be like? WouldTHIS make us Mithraic?

Since conditions were ripe for the emergence of another great monotheistic religion in the Mediterranean basin, around the time that Jesus emerged in world history, I'm thinking it is quite possible that things wouldn't be radically different today.

There could have been some other, equally charismatic, Jewish preacher, to take up the mantle of divine messenger and preach equal rights and love universal to the Hebrews. There was a ton of them back then, active mostly, in and around Judaea.

If one of them alt-Jesuses gain support among the people, it is not unreasonable to assume that there is a slight chance, they could go on to be the founding figureheads of a universal monotheistic religion like the J-man was. Provided they also get the PR and logistics support that J-man could rely on the Apostles for.

What kind of a religion would it be? Probably some alteration or evolution to the original hebrew faith as is Christianity.
It could have had a stronger flavour of magic and mirale working as well as stronger Bhaalist references if, for instance, Simon the Magus, was the one to head the nascent religion.
Still, I believe, that in its principles this alternate religion wouldn't be all that much alien to a modern Christian. Not if it wanted to survive and thrive.

Mithraism now...I'm not quite sure about this. I think Mithraism was more of a religion for the Roman military upper-class, although common people were known to attend Mithraic mysteries and congregations. I'm not sure it could ever attain the wide-spread appeal Judaeo-Christianity has among the people.

[HeWhoIsMe]

Why do people ask the same question? I seriously don't think we should have these discussions about Semi-Mythical people at the centre of a religion it never really goes anywhere.


I agree that religion per se and matters of spiritual nature in general, probably shouldn't be discussed here.

On the other hand, though, talking about the historical implications behind the founding, evolution and continued presence of the most influential human creeds, are among the most interesting subjects to dissect, don't you think?


As long as we refrain from touching on the more delicate matters about religion I see nothing wrong in discussing semi-mythical people and their pet religions...



Well that's what I believe, anyway...

[Masked Grizzly]

It is possible that some variation of Hellenistic Judaism, Pre-Noahidic "God-Fearers" or alternate pre-christian Gnostic sect (possibly the Sethians?) would have taken hold in the Roman Empire had Jesus never existed, apparently the only thing that prevented Romans from eventually embracing Judaism is circumcision and whether they would have overcome their fear of circumcision is another matter entirely.

[CandyDragon]

Wow...talk about necromancing?

Wow, I just realized how much of a necro that is... :eek:

[CalBear]

EIGHT years?

Really?

This is, no question, the oldest thread ever resurrected (sort of ironic, considering).

This sort of thing is seriously looked down on here. The exception is if you actually have something significant to add, even then it is far better to start a new thread.

Please keep this in mind.Consider the time period, the hebrews had been looking for a messiah for centuries, and they were attempting to fight/ignore/live with Roman occupation.
John the Baptist was considered to beh the messiah at one point, but said something like 'i prepare for the one that comes after me'.

It is quite possible that the hellenist faction of judaism that becomes christianity (christ being derived from the greek for king) could have coalesced around John the Baptist, or Simon the Zealot (who was a champion of resisting Roman rule) or even someone on the Sanhedrin council.

I do find it quite interesting that the New Testament of the christian Bible covers only about a month of the live of Jesus, and the Gospels that cover that was not even writtten by the man himself. The rest of the book is focused on the works of the disciples, whose writings and letters made up the character of hellenist judaism/orthodox christianity/catholic church for the first century or so.

[MerryPrankster]

Why ASB? Two words : Flavius Josephus.

Basically, no mention of Jesus or any equivalent religious leader, well except the parts we know for sure being added by Christians.

Or, and "divine powers", "son of God", etc. If you're believing in it, it's okay but it's still ASB by definition.

Josephus's description of James as "the brother of Jesus, the so-called Messiah" doesn't strike me as an interpolation because of the "so-called" comment.

The big Christian interpolation is a flat-out endorsement of Jesus as the Messiah, in an extremely unsubtle fashion.

[MerryPrankster]

EIGHT years?

Really?

This is, no question, the oldest thread ever resurrected (sort of ironic, considering).

This sort of thing is seriously looked down on here. The exception is if you actually have something significant to add, even then it is far better to start a new thread.

Please keep this in mind.

Oops. Didn't see the date.

[Velasco]

Josephus's description of James as "the brother of Jesus, the so-called Messiah" doesn't strike me as an interpolation because of the "so-called" comment.

The big Christian interpolation is a flat-out endorsement of Jesus as the Messiah, in an extremely unsubtle fashion.

Exactly. Also, Chrestus isn't that rare of a nickname/surname of the period - Mithridates Chrestus and Socrates Chrestus testify that it was a fairly well known surname with royal connotations, not at all unlikely for a popular leader claiming royal blood/status.

[Enigmajones]

Well, what would the world be like? WouldTHIS make us Mithraic?

Well I expect Brian of Bethlehem will finally get his due.

[Velasco]

No.

While it is true a number of famous people had their biographies recorded long after their death inside the west, inside the East most of the biographies of important individuals actually were being written near or a few years after their demise. In particular the SGZ was written by Chen Shou, a contemporary historian who wrote his works based on already written court sponsored biographies. There is no reason that four simple biographies written withing a generation of the events that define their religion and beliefs would be ASB. A number of Holy Texts, containing far more words, were written in less time.

In comparison to the number of Kings and Queens whose existence can be ascertained from sometimes a single coin, having four incredibly complete eye-witness/first-hand biographies written within a generation of events is ALMOST so fantastical as to be ASB. To then have a ridiculous amount of copies of said biographies in various languages, from Ethiopia to Gaul, allowing us to compare and determine exactly the content of the original text, is also fantastical.

@Teddybear: The Gospels do not talk about only a month of Jesus' life. Between them they talk about his ancestry, his parent's marriage, his birthplace, siblings, childhood in Egypt, and then a three year ministry all around Judaea and Samaria.

[kspence92]

Wow, i was in primary school when this threadd was created. now im in college ! This thread's been ressurected as much as Jesus was lol

[Beedok]

This must be the greatest Necro in history! :eek:

[Arqoi]

http://www.johnreilly.info/ijhnbb.htm

[CandyDragon]

This must be the greatest Necro in history! :eek:

Or, if you want to look at it from the other point of view, the worst. :D

[Evan]

Exactly. Also, Chrestus isn't that rare of a nickname/surname of the period - Mithridates Chrestus and Socrates Chrestus testify that it was a fairly well known surname with royal connotations, not at all unlikely for a popular leader claiming royal blood/status.
I wouldn't be one bit surprised if it was a common title. It's the Greek word for "anointed person".

[Alex1guy]

How did you not see the date? You would have to go so far back in the forums to even find this!