What Falls Under Community Property?

[Psychomeltdown]

This is to clarify what is Community Property and what i Personal Property.


In the Beginning, when the game was still being planned out and even several Days in the game, the general consensus of what is Community Property fell into:

Animals
Medicines
Weapons
Seeds (food/material)
Food


Since Glen's already declared Animals are Private Property, what else is Private and what else is Community?

Medicines, who knows if you'll be willing to give it up, after all Glens' the only Doc for 3000.

Weapons, Weapons safety is always an issue, but how many will be willing to fork them over? We've already had one killing, several bear attacks, and shooting at and one killing of the natives in the area.

Food. We've already got a few people saying that the food's theirs.


What then is considered Community Property???

[Ward]

Most food iteams are that of the Community but I can see you keeping your own spices . As for weapons I have loaned a few members a pistol to use .
For one who did not bring a fire arm with them . I know that every one in my family is armd with a pistol if they are 14 years or older . As for seed how many people brought seeds with them ? And what type did they bring .
As for medical supplys what do you think we should be forced to give up . I willing to give up some of my medical supplys for Glen to use but not everything I have Because every one in my party has there own personal firstade kit , what firstaid iteams did the rest bring .

[Highlander]

I brought seeds for a personal garden, but I'd be willing to donate probably a little more than half of them, if you all want them.

[SionEwig]

This is to clarify what is Community Property and what i Personal Property.


In the Beginning, when the game was still being planned out and even several Days in the game, the general consensus of what is Community Property fell into:

Animals
Medicines
Weapons
Seeds (food/material)
Food

I have my doubts that your conclusion here was actually the general consensus. I think it more likely that it may have been the hopes and desires of a few very vocal people. I also remember that there were several who were even then challenging the presumption of community property.

However, these items and many others were discussed as being "Community Property." (Like I seem to remember someone saying that smithing gear should be considered as such).


Since Glen's already declared Animals are Private Property, what else is Private and what else is Community?

Just my opinion, everything that people brought is their PRIVATE PROPERTY. The only things that are COMMUNITY PROPERTY are the very few items that poeple donated spare weight for (like ShadeStorm, or whatever his name is, who donated almost half his weight allowance to THE GROUP). There were several if not many people who donated weight or items, FOR THE GROUP (I think Ward has that list). I know that I kept suggesting from very early on that everyone set aside at least 10 lbs (out of their initial weight allowance) for group items. That would have been approximately 6940 lbs. I don't know if that was ever adopted. Matt may have intended all of those weapons he brought to be COMMUNITY PROPERTY, but I am not sure, hopefully he will clarify. Overall, I would have to say that if it was not very specifically designated as COMMUNITY PROPERTY, then it is PRIVATE PROPERTY.

Medicines, who knows if you'll be willing to give it up, after all Glens' the only Doc for 3000.

Weapons, Weapons safety is always an issue, but how many will be willing to fork them over? We've already had one killing, several bear attacks, and shooting at and one killing of the natives in the area.

Food. We've already got a few people saying that the food's theirs.


What then is considered Community Property???

This does need to be clarified.

[Norbert]

I am NOT in favor of communal property, unless an item is stated to be such by the person who brought them. Not Animals, Seeds, Tools, or Weapons. Though I am in favor of community pooling of their resources, this is not the same as communal property. My seeds will go for a communal garden, but I will ask a return of an equal percentage of the SEEDS (not the food) that those plants produce. If someone was low on certain types of seeds, but high in another kind, I have the right to trade MY seed with them, or, give it to them in return payment of produce, or more seed.

My tools for logging are in use by and for the community. It is why I brought them. But the tools are mine.

I brought a goat. I do not need its milk, so I donate the milk it produces to the community, to go to those who need it most. In the future, when it comes time for the wool to be sheared (it is an Angorra), the wool it produces is mine to dispose of. I will give a portion (probably a generous portion) to the people who are taking care of it, in payment for their watching it, protecting it, and making certain it is feed.

I may be semi-altruistic in this, but not totally. I know everyone needs to share some of what they have, or else people are not going to survive. I also know there will come a time when an market economy will form. I have not been against this, though I stated it dhould wait. Paper is a very precious commodity, but some of it must be used for keeping records of what is contributed, so at a later time credit can be given to the ones who contributed.

I will fight anyone tooth and nail to collectivise everything.

OOC
I will say that the contribution of some weight of the resupply is a good idea, and is necessary. It will allow the pooling of resources to enable us to get materials and equipment to maintain a close semblence of our technology, culture, and history. But, at some point, when there are enough of hard to get items to go around, then each person will be credited for the weight they contributed to the community pool. And repayment for their sacrafice can be made. By pooling some of the resupply, we can have items that can be used by a small community to increase our level of health (bathhouses), some limited electrical power (Solar, Hydro, Wind), and run some types of equipment that can speed up our growth as a fully functional colony.

I got to looking at jolos idea of a tractor. It is not as far fetched as it first seemed. We contribute to a large still, and run them on alcohol. A group of 30+ families can contribute enough to get one of these (I am thinking of the IH Farmall Cub, which weighs 1854 lbs, and does not need a battery to run, is small enough to work any of our fields, and can be abused (my parents have one that was built in 1948, and has only had one overhaul in that time with minor parts), and 200 lbs from 30 people can get the still(1000 lbs) the tractor, implements, and have some left over for a substintial number of seeds).

Pooling resources, if we form 15 subcommunities, we can have all of this, and still have weight left over for other things (wood working tools, metal working tools, and so on).

[Highlander]

That's a good point. I also will follow Norbert's ideas.

[Glen]

Everything that you 'ordered' from the ASBs is your property.

However, some of those things people have ordered they did so with the intention that they be used communally, or pooled.

We need to pool resources in some cases to optimize our abilities and avoid redundancies. The more we duplicate effort, that's the less different abilities we have. Of course, some necessities are needed so much, such as food, that there will be a lot of people working on those same things. We also don't all have the skills or experience to do everything in this new world, and thus need to work initially under the supervision of those few who do, until we have learned.

But even when things are being managed by communal effort, and even when they are required due to great need to be used by the community, this property was still yours, and you must receive due credit for them.

Those who have been willing to volunteer their items for communal use, thank you. We will if needed (and there is much need), gladly take your generous offers. However, we will also record and credit those contributions. I don't want to see when we transition to a more market based economy those who gave of great generosity have less than those who counted every penny. I'm sorry, but money or property are power, and I would have those who are our most thoughtful and generous be also among our prosperous. So Norbert, Ward, and others, we'll take your stuff, but you're getting credit whether you like it or not. If you never cash that credit in, that's your decision, but it will be on the books nonetheless.

So, everything you brought is your property, even if it needs to be communally managed. If the community needs to use it, you get credit for that use. If it needs to be used in a way such that it can not be returned, you get credit for it as if it were bought from you at top price (this shouldn't be done lightly, and will be avoided where pactical, and where practical, we will ask people to volunteer to have their property purchased).

Now then, what about what you produce? If you are working on a communitiy project, which most of us are, your labor is being credited to you, but the results of that labor are community property. Of course, as it so happens, your labor is enough to buy most of what you are producing. However, there are going to be limits on how much you can purchase at any one time for the near future, due to our rationing needs.

We are a group of individuals pulling together our resources and efforts to survive and lay the groundwork for the resurrection of civilization. We can as easily be seen as an employee-owned start-up company as a small communal town under a command economy in a time of crisis. The community is but a collection of us individuals, of no intrinsic value itself. So long as the community structure allows us all to prosper more working together than we could off on our own, it is doing its job. Otherwise, it is worthless and of little value. And in the end, it is us individual citizens who make that determination.

[SionEwig]

I am NOT in favor of communal property, unless an item is stated to be such by the person who brought them. Not Animals, Seeds, Tools, or Weapons. Though I am in favor of community pooling of their resources, this is not the same as communal property. My seeds will go for a communal garden, but I will ask a return of an equal percentage of the SEEDS (not the food) that those plants produce. If someone was low on certain types of seeds, but high in another kind, I have the right to trade MY seed with them, or, give it to them in return payment of produce, or more seed.

My tools for logging are in use by and for the community. It is why I brought them. But the tools are mine.

I brought a goat. I do not need its milk, so I donate the milk it produces to the community, to go to those who need it most. In the future, when it comes time for the wool to be sheared (it is an Angorra), the wool it produces is mine to dispose of. I will give a portion (probably a generous portion) to the people who are taking care of it, in payment for their watching it, protecting it, and making certain it is feed.

I may be semi-altruistic in this, but not totally. I know everyone needs to share some of what they have, or else people are not going to survive. I also know there will come a time when an market economy will form. I have not been against this, though I stated it dhould wait. Paper is a very precious commodity, but some of it must be used for keeping records of what is contributed, so at a later time credit can be given to the ones who contributed.

I will fight anyone tooth and nail to collectivise everything.

Way to say it brother!!!!!

I also have no problem with use of most of my families stuff (my wife's rifle, well she won't even let me shoot it, LOL). A few things I may say that I will be the one to use it, but will have no problem using that stuff for the group (the explosives for example).

OOC
I will say that the contribution of some weight of the resupply is a good idea, and is necessary. It will allow the pooling of resources to enable us to get materials and equipment to maintain a close semblence of our technology, culture, and history. But, at some point, when there are enough of hard to get items to go around, then each person will be credited for the weight they contributed to the community pool. And repayment for their sacrafice can be made. By pooling some of the resupply, we can have items that can be used by a small community to increase our level of health (bathhouses), some limited electrical power (Solar, Hydro, Wind), and run some types of equipment that can speed up our growth as a fully functional colony.

All excellent ideas.

I got to looking at jolos idea of a tractor. It is not as far fetched as it first seemed. We contribute to a large still, and run them on alcohol. A group of 30+ families can contribute enough to get one of these (I am thinking of the IH Farmall Cub, which weighs 1854 lbs, and does not need a battery to run, is small enough to work any of our fields, and can be abused (my parents have one that was built in 1948, and has only had one overhaul in that time with minor parts), and 200 lbs from 30 people can get the still(1000 lbs) the tractor, implements, and have some left over for a substintial number of seeds).

Strangely enough, that is the exact same kind of tractor I use. Mostly use it for brush clearing, log hauling, and stump pulling, but I have done some ground breaking with it. Great machine, the only part that has worn out was a pully. You can also power it by coal gasification, it actually works and can still run off the alcohol.

Pooling resources, if we form 15 subcommunities, we can have all of this, and still have weight left over for other things (wood working tools, metal working tools, and so on).

Again right.

[Ward]

Also if we are in comunitys of 15 we are large enought that if attacked we can fight most attackers off plus be close enought that we can help each other . Plus this way each group can have its own flavor .

I know that as part of my supplys the wife has talk me into bring 100 lbs of hard candy . As she put it this will be worth its weight in gold with in a year .
I'm also bring yest for making beer . Plus think about taking some luxury iteams also like fancy furniture and that . My wife told me that one of the things she will do it teach class on knitting , croctchet , and other class in running a home with out a lot of modren iteams .

[Hendryk]

Though I am in favor of community pooling of their resources, this is not the same as communal property.
The concept of communal property needs clarification. There is indeed a difference between pooling supplies and renouncing ownership rights over them.
As one of those in charge of Supply Management along with Bulgaroktonos (though I have been delegating much of the workload to NPCs these last few days), I was under the impression that whatever went into the community's care did so on a provisional and voluntary basis. Plus there hasn't been authoritative rulings by the Council about this issue that I'm aware of.

[jolo]

As for the group kitchens: I just assumed that people would bring their own foods to their groups, and that the groups leaders get additional food from the market for free according to their numbers. Every once in a while, a few people cook for themselves, too, or groups get organized differently (like on day 9).

[Glen]

The concept of communal property needs clarification. There is indeed a difference between pooling supplies and renouncing ownership rights over them.

Exactly. We have pooling of supplies, not renounciation of ownership rights over them.


As one of those in charge of Supply Management along with Bulgaroktonos (though I have been delegating much of the workload to NPCs these last few days), I was under the impression that whatever went into the community's care did so on a provisional and voluntary basis.

That is pretty much the case. We are trying to do as much as humanly possible on a provisional and voluntary basis.

Plus there hasn't been authoritative rulings by the Council about this issue that I'm aware of.

Which parts of the issue?

[sbegin]

Actually, unfortunately, this was not explained properly when this project took off. It was one of the reasons I bowed out - I'm making intelligent choices in what I'm bringing, I'm not giving up my goat to someone who is going to be bringing along their neutered, declawed kitty kat, which isn't going to contribute anything! From what I had understood, I'd have to turn over my animals to the community, who then decided how best to use them. No thanks!

[Norbert]

Actually, unfortunately, this was not explained properly when this project took off. It was one of the reasons I bowed out - I'm making intelligent choices in what I'm bringing, I'm not giving up my goat to someone who is going to be bringing along their neutered, declawed kitty kat, which isn't going to contribute anything! From what I had understood, I'd have to turn over my animals to the community, who then decided how best to use them. No thanks!

No! You do not have to turn over your animals. The matter is not that animals are community property, but the animals are taken care of jointly for now, to free people up for other work. The animals will still be yours.

BTW, I left my neutered declawed kitty cat home, and it would have counted as carried weight, not an animal.

[Ward]

Actually, unfortunately, this was not explained properly when this project took off. It was one of the reasons I bowed out - I'm making intelligent choices in what I'm bringing, I'm not giving up my goat to someone who is going to be bringing along their neutered, declawed kitty kat, which isn't going to contribute anything! From what I had understood, I'd have to turn over my animals to the community, who then decided how best to use them. No thanks!


Most people who brought over there Cats carried them over in the 40lbs that they had on there bodies . The same way my family carried there chickens .
I
realy hope more people carried chickens over that way .

[SionEwig]

Most people who brought over there Cats carried them over in the 40lbs that they had on there bodies . The same way my family carried there chickens .
I
realy hope more people carried chickens over that way .

I brought chickens also, 12.

[Glen]

Actually, unfortunately, this was not explained properly when this project took off. It was one of the reasons I bowed out - I'm making intelligent choices in what I'm bringing, I'm not giving up my goat to someone who is going to be bringing along their neutered, declawed kitty kat, which isn't going to contribute anything! From what I had understood, I'd have to turn over my animals to the community, who then decided how best to use them. No thanks!

Norbert is right. We are not talking about redistribution of property or government confiscation here.

However, on the first day, we were all mixed together, people, animals, and baggage, with no infrastucture to deal with that.

We had people going around setting up a camp on the old Roman model, with lanes free to travel and a defensible perimeter. We set up a latrine system away from the main ISOT site and our water supply. And we set up communal corrals, which were basically designated areas where your animals could be congregated on our periphery so they would not be fouling the campsite itself, not causing injuries to people when they were frightened, not damaging property which they would otherwise be in close proximity with, and not getting lost or hurt themselves due to the clutter and the chaos and for many of us, inexperience in caring for these animals.

Early on, we were trying to record who had what in the corrals. For many of us, we just had noted what type of animal was taken, since they were to us interchangable. However, for some they had brought special animals and/or had a strong attachment, so these were noted in more detail.

So yeah, probably within hours of arrival, someone came to you asking to corral your goat, with a promise that they'd note (in whatever detail you specified) what kind of animal you had.

So, what would we want of you and your goat over the past few days.

First, we just wanted it out of the camp area and safely seen to. If you had animal handling experience, we'd probably have asked you to help in that very effort. If you did not, shortly thereafter we'd have asked you to get some training from our herders so you could safely care for your goat in the future. In the meantime, if your goat was a nanny-goat and able to produce milk, then you'd be informed that due to the rationing needs of the community, someone would need to milk that goat, with the milk going to the community rationing program, for which you would be receiving credit as the owner of a nanny-goat. If you had experience with milking, we probably tried to recruit you to do the milking, either of your own goat if it was noted in detail, or just a goat. For which you would earn even more credit, and between owning a goat and milking a goat, you would have earned credit equivalent (or close to it) to what you would have gotten if you had just kept your goat and milked it yourself, selling the milk to the community.

And, since the animals have been rounded up and cared for as a community organized initiative, you probably are not personally liable for the costs of the care of the animal at that time, and that frees you up to be doing other work within the community (aside from milking if you are doing that also) or on your own.

[SionEwig]

Whole bunch clipped for the sake of brevity.



In the meantime, if your goat was a she-goat and able to produce milk, then you'd be informed that due to the rationing needs of the community, someone would need to milk that goat, with the milk going to the community rationing program, for which you would be receiving credit as the owner of a she-goat.

Glen,

Dude, it's not a "she-goat," it's called a "nanny goat." Big difference, please use the correct terms. My mother-in-law was not ISOTed with us, and even if she had been and was capable of lactating, the results of that would be not fit for human consumption and the SPCA/PETA folks would complain if we tried to give said results to animals.

[Glen]

...Dude, it's not a "she-goat," it's called a "nanny goat."...

Yeah, I was having a bit of a block on the right term, and just wanted to get the idea out there. I note that you understood my meaning.;)

[Gerard-ABC]

Sion, Glen,

Such comments about the that poor goat could result in the goat asking a ASB to e-mail a lawyer. Being compared to a mother-in-law is illegal, unethical, and worse than ANY ASB trick. Ever.


Regards,
Gerard

[Glen]

Sion, Glen,

Such comments about the that poor goat could result in the goat asking a ASB to e-mail a lawyer. Being compared to a mother-in-law is illegal, unethical, and worse than ANY ASB trick. Ever.


Regards,
Gerard

First - LOL!

Second - Hey, I LIKE my Mother-in-Law!!

Third - That was Sion, not me!!!

[Ward]

Then do all the horses have something to say about my calling my Father in law a horses ass .

[Bety]

Take as rule of finger that most of the property is managed better by owners than by some general organization body.
I can understand that community can make some boards/councils on issues that are crucial for its life.
Here the persons can consider how they will contribute to the community regarding the things which fall in their ownership.
Those who own weapons can agree how and in what circumstances they will provide them or their service to community.
Same to those who own livestock and other things.

[Glen]

Take as rule of finger that most of the property is managed better by owners than by some general organization body.
I can understand that community can make some boards/councils on issues that are crucial for its life.
Here the persons can consider how they will contribute to the community regarding the things which fall in their ownership.
Those who own weapons can agree how and in what circumstances they will provide them or their service to community.
Same to those who own livestock and other things.

As a rule of thumb, yes.

However, we are not under normal circumstances here.

Most people here have not been living under these conditions before...in their lives. And they chose a lot of essential stuff...that they now have little idea how to use or maintain.

The first thing we are trying to do is pull our skills, not just resources, to get that stuff managed by the best people we have with those skills. In a more normal time, that would have already been the case (ranchers tend to have horses, farmers sacks of seed, etc.).

That is why we are having to do a lot of more 'centralized' or 'communal' stuff. We also don't have spare resources to wager on a lot of experimentation and innovation for right now, which is another strength of private management as well as ownership.

We want to get those few with the necessary skills to maintain and use our resources doing so, at the same time that we are teaching those who wish to use what they brought, but do not know how to use and care for, those skills.

As a rule of thumb, you are right. In the long term, you are right and that will be what we will do. But in the immediate aftermath of the ISOT, we have to do things a little differently, temporarily.

[Bety]

First sorry for finger instead of thumb - English not beeing my mother language as evident.
But could not people choose what to bring along?

[Norbert]

First sorry for finger instead of thumb - English not beeing my mother language as evident.
But could not people choose what to bring along?

Yes they could. To start, 1 large animal (Cow, Horse, Llama), 1 medium animal (Goat, Sheep, Large Dog). We also had about 1,480 lbs per couple (about 671.5 kg). The details are in the Joining ALT (A Little Trip) Starters Guide thread, and references to weights of items can be found in ALT Reference thread.

[SionEwig]

Yes they could. To start, 1 large animal (Cow, Horse, Llama), 1 medium animal (Goat, Sheep, Large Dog). We also had about 1,480 lbs per couple (about 671.5 kg). The details are in the Joining ALT (A Little Trip) Starters Guide thread, and references to weights of items can be found in ALT Reference thread.

The large animals that Norbert mentions are there as examples only, you could concieveably make it any large animal you want (one person chose a buffalo) and the same for the medium animals.

[Bety]

Yes they could. To start, 1 large animal (Cow, Horse, Llama), 1 medium animal (Goat, Sheep, Large Dog). We also had about 1,480 lbs per couple (about 671.5 kg). The details are in the Joining ALT (A Little Trip) Starters Guide thread, and references to weights of items can be found in ALT Reference thread.
I know that.
By the way - can there be some interchanges - like 2 dogs and one goat instead of 1 large animal and 1 medium one?
Anyway, what I mean if I take something I espect to take care of it also.
Probably I can get into troubles and here I rather cooparate with those who have a similar problem - to bargain with the community - like we need some leftovers to feed the animals but we can offer such and such service.

[Glen]

First sorry for finger instead of thumb - English not beeing my mother language as evident.
But could not people choose what to bring along?

They did choose.

However, some of the stuff they chose was stuff that they thought would aide in survival and rebuilding civilization...not necessarily stuff they knew a lot about.

If people know how to use and maintain the things they have, they are more likely to be recruited to help with doing so for and teaching those who don't, not lose control.

Folks, we barely even HAVE a government. YOU ARE THE COMMUNITY! We are only trying to coordinate our efforts, match up resources and skills and needs to maximize what we can do in these first few months after the rather extreme dislocation of a jump to a wilderness 5000 years in our past, mostly among near strangers. You are the ones who are going to be doing most of this. But no one person is going to be doing EVERYTHING, and we don't yet have the luxury of time to let a free market system sort it out. We have to impose some artificial organization and infrastructure where NONE EXISTED. Once we do the basics, we can start to let our community more naturally evolve through individual interactions and trade (which is also already happening on a small scale, and will become more important as time passes).

Can we just get to our settlement site, get our first crops in the ground and some shelters built, both at Fort Monty and the settlement site, and then we can get into more details about who should be doing what with what when and how? We know we've got to protect what we have now, get it to where we're going, and put in that first crop and shelter. Then we can figure out who is ready to just take their stuff (or barter/buy stuff from others) and run with it, and who needs more training and assistance learning how to do that.

This is why we are being so assiduous about trying to keep records of everything now, so that we can sort more of this out when we have a moment to catch our breaths.

Maybe we ought to start developing a timeline for these changes, but quite frankly, we just don't know enough yet about how things are going to go these next couple months to do that. With some time, we can make a reasonable guess.

[Bety]

One last question.
People could take virtual things - I mean I do not have a goat and still take it?
Maybe a stupid question.

[Glen]

I know that.
By the way - can there be some interchanges - like 2 dogs and one goat instead of 1 large animal and 1 medium one?

Check with Ward on that one.


Anyway, what I mean if I take something I espect to take care of it also.

People were told to take them by the ASBs (though not what type). And most knew we'd need them as well. But most also don't know a lot about taking care of them, especially the large animals. Plus we don't have to build all the infrastructure to take care of them, and the quickest was to make big corrals. Also, we have immediate needs for manpower, not everyone trying to figure out for themselves how best to do this (though once we get settled, I can see people doing just that, then taking their animals out for their new arrangements).


Probably I can get into troubles and here I rather cooparate with those who have a similar problem - to bargain with the community - like we need some leftovers to feed the animals but we can offer such and such service.

And some of that is going to happen...human nature, and a good thing to boot. But right now, you don't know most of the people here, you don't know who has what, and you don't have a good way to get into contact with most of them. The census and inventory we started allows us to do a lot of that centrally...but we don't have to resources to publish most of that information for individual use yet. And jolo's market is helping with some of that as well. But we need people out fishing and foraging and hunting and clearing and building, which is leaving little time for trading at the moment.

[Glen]

One last question.
People could take virtual things - I mean I do not have a goat and still take it?
Maybe a stupid question.

Ah, not a stupid question at all...just a bit late.;)

The premise is, the ASBs come to you and say you can take a ton of equipment, plus the animals as previously mentioned. Anything you want within the weight and size limits; you just have to compile the list for them. Several of us communicated (presumably through the board) about what to take, so there are some things here that were suggested for community needs (though again, still brought by individuals, with their name on it).

So you could have brought anything like that, whether you owned it or not.

[Bety]

I said the question was last but I always have some more..
The list that should be compiled - should it be posted somewhere? Can it still be in my mind? Or am I just here barehanded?

[Ward]

I said the question was last but I always have some more..
The list that should be compiled - should it be posted somewhere? Can it still be in my mind? Or am I just here barehanded?


Bety Look under what Phyco took that a good list . We will say that you have that to start . And state you came over wearing what my fanily is wearing that will give everone over 13 two chickens each . Or they could carry your two dogs .