Community Management of Privately Owned Animals Poll (read first post before voting!)

[Glen]

As there has been some concern in the community about the proposals of the Council regarding the use of animals for public works, we have had to call a special general meeting of the community to ask you, the legislature, to ratify the management of our herds of individually owned animals by the council or its designated representatives.

I will state, that it is the opinion of myself and many on the council, that there is a need for the near future for the ability to oversee and manage these precious resources, as we have great need of them for projects vital to our very survival, the need to free up people for other duties, and not just the care of their individual animals, and to make certain that the animals are properly cared for until we have been able to instruct those who now own these animals but do not have previous experience with them in their safe use and care.

It is also the great concern of the Council, that without such an ability to manage our animals, that the chances of survival of our community goes down greatly, as does the likelihood of our loss of whole domesticated species and our general level of sustainable civilization.

These animals are, and remain, the private property of individuals, and this is only a vote on community management of livestock, not community ownership. Any usage of animals for community activities must be properly documented and credited for just compensation.

[SionEwig]

It would have been nice if there had been a bit more limitation built in to the proposal, but that can be worked out later.

A strong suggestion (and this just came to me) is that we might want to put a sunset clause on this, say that in 6 months, 1 year, or whatever that the Community Management of the animals must be reapproved otherwise it expires. That would make me feel much better.

[Glen]

It would have been nice if there had been a bit more limitation built in to the proposal, but that can be worked out later.

A strong suggestion (and this just came to me) is that we might want to put a sunset clause on this, say that in 6 months, 1 year, or whatever that the Community Management of the animals must be reapproved otherwise it expires. That would make me feel much better.

The entire governmental structure expires in one year, at which point it has to be reapproved or replaced.

I can understand that more limitations and specifications would be desirable, and we will probably see those over time, but we are still in the first two weeks of being thrown with 24 hours notice into a survival situation. We need to get the basics going, and modify as we have time and are able.

We have general meetings scheduled every 28 days at this point. Motions can be made to modify this arrangement at any of them.

There is only so much we can think of now, and there are still a lot of unknowns ahead of us. Right now we need to get some semblance of organization so we have a fighting chance of not just surviving, but preserving as much of our civilization and technology as possible. There are a lot of details that will have to be worked out in the months to come, but we can't work them all out in just two weeks, not when we are struggling just to get the basics done.

[SionEwig]

The entire governmental structure expires in one year, at which point it has to be reapproved or replaced.

I had forgotten about that. However, does that mean that all the decisions, rulings, agreements, etc., are then null and void. Think hard on that one.

I can understand that more limitations and specifications would be desirable, and we will probably see those over time, but we are still in the first two weeks of being thrown with 24 hours notice into a survival situation. We need to get the basics going, and modify as we have time and are able.

We have general meetings scheduled every 28 days at this point. Motions can be made to modify this arrangement at any of them.

There is only so much we can think of now, and there are still a lot of unknowns ahead of us. Right now we need to get some semblance of organization so we have a fighting chance of not just surviving, but preserving as much of our civilization and technology as possible. There are a lot of details that will have to be worked out in the months to come, but we can't work them all out in just two weeks, not when we are struggling just to get the basics done.

I am not saying that all of this should be perfect the first time, that's why I said worked out later. A lot of this stuff will need modification as time goes on and we see what works and what doesn't.

No criticism intended, just making suggestions and random thoughts.

[Glen]

I had forgotten about that. However, does that mean that all the decisions, rulings, agreements, etc., are then null and void. Think hard on that one.

It means that they are all up for review. Probably several will be moot by then, and many others will be handled by a simple, blanket reauthorization. But issues of contention, or just areas where we think after a year's experience and rumination, we can do better, will probably be changed.

First off, I fully expect us to have a new constitution to ratify at that time.
We will also probably have some changes to the structure and the composition of the executive branch, as the needs and nature of our community will likely change over the course of the next year as we go from survival mode to building mode.


No criticism intended, just making suggestions and random thoughts.

Fair enough.

[Psychomeltdown]

Okay, let me get this.

All animals are private property.

The Community will manage the Private Property.



What i want to know now is: If the Community is managing and caring for the animals that are private property, then does the products (meaning edibles) produced by the animals then belong to the Community or the Individual?

After all we are taking care of the animals, therefore the Community should have first dibs on what to do with the products, what I'm talking about is mainly the milk. We have dairy cows and goats that are producing milk and if we're the ones feeding, watering, and caring for it, it would also mean that we should be the ones who decide what to do with it.

Don't misinterpret this as the herders or whoever getting the milk and using as they please. For one I won't allow it and another I'm not so keen on milk and by WE I mean the Community. We have possibly dozens of babies and mothers either pregnant or nursing, they need if FAR more than XXXX who doesn't have kids or a preggers wife.

[Highlander]

Well, looks like I'm the only one who voted no . . .

[Ward]

The Comunity should only get first dips on half the milk amd the owers get the other half to do with it what they want .

[Psychomeltdown]

The Comunity should only get first dips on half the milk amd the owers get the other half to do with it what they want .
My thought is that since we're caring for the animals, that the Community gets first dibs on anything they produce. Since children and pregnant women are a main concern. They need it more than the owners, probably...

[Highlander]

So, what you're saying is, the Council gets takes everything they want, and gives you back the left overs? God, it's getting more communist every day.

I would be more than willing to lend anything produced, you would just have to ask.

[Psychomeltdown]

So, what you're saying is, the Council gets takes everything they want, and gives you back the left overs? God, it's getting more communist every day.

I would be more than willing to lend anything produced, you would just have to ask.
No, there's a part where FOOD is a resource that belongs to no one. These animals produce food (milk), the milk is needed to feed the children. the animals are being taken care of, BY THE COMMUNITY, therefore, the COMMUNITy should get what they produce, which will then be given to those that need it, ie children.

personal property is yours.


Unfortunately communism tends to work in this situation, where everything of value is communal and work is assigned. WHEN we get settled, then we'll have enough resources to begin doing what we want.

For now FOOD is the main concern. It's already 13 days and ad have about 24 more days of food left.

Cows/goats produce FOOD. Therefore...

chickens though, i think they should be allowed to produce as much chicks as they can, afterall we'll be needing them later.

[Highlander]

Well, think I'll be leaving this colony fairly soon then . . .

But not for a bit atleast.

[Glen]

Well, think I'll be leaving this colony fairly soon then . . .

But not for a bit atleast.

Highlander, your concerns are real ones, and we would value your input as to how to best handle these issues.

Food needs to be rationed centrally at the moment due to the precarious position we are in. Once we have our initial food production assured to the point where we are not likely to starve (which given the very favorable area of the Bay area shouldn't be bad), we will WANT to see more individual initiative and enterprise in our endeavors.


For right now, we aren't even two weeks into our time here. We're doing our best to keep a record of who is here, what they are doing, what they brought, and what we are doing with it, so as to best credit people with for their contributions to our endeavors. A lot of that is going to have to be figured out retrospectively, but we will be providing just compensation as best we can, as soon as we safely can.

This question of the compensation and status of the mik produced by animals under community care is a good one.

On the one hand, we have for the time being asked that people allow their animals to be managed by the community; it hardly seems fair to charge them the overhead for something the community asked them to do.

On the other hand, it is a service, one which frees them up to engage in other activities that is earning them credit in the community, and to produce things like food through fishing and forage, or lumber, etc.

Milk production requires work for milking, so the ones doing the milking should be getting a significant amount of the credit towards that activity. The ones who provided milk producing animals should also be getting some credit towards that. Milk needs to be rationed, for infants first, then growing children, and then the elderly (greater risk of osteoporosis).

Once we are past the immediate survival phase, we will better codify how this is working, and we want input from people as to how best to do this.

[Highlander]

It's just that once you give this power to someone, it is often hard to take it back . . .

I understand where you are coming from, though. However, I still disagree with it but will stay on the sidelines for now.

[Ward]

Well Highlander I brought over a Bull I figured that it was safer for some one like myself to bring one how knows how to handle a bull then someone who did not .

[Psychomeltdown]

It's just that once you give this power to someone, it is often hard to take it back . . . and that's why we have elected officials. No one has taken power, no one has declared they are in charge of this or that. we've all been put into where we're at (due to the fact that we're PCs also) by an elected vote.

I understand where you are coming from, though. However, I still disagree with it but will stay on the sidelines for now.
Why does that sound like a threat... :D :p


Anyway, it's far harder for you to make it on your own. think of it, dangerous animals, possibly dangerous people.

[Ward]

Myself It will be about 4 years before I can trade a calf for a young horse .
I'm thing long term for my family not short term . Within a couble years I will have the largest chicken farm on the planet . For I'm not going to be wanting to farm that much in two years .

[pisces74]

The goal is rapid population growth of our colony and its domesticated animals. IMO its not communistic enough, however my main concern is what happens if a major disaster happens to the herd due to someones personal negligence. I lost my hounds due to my own stupidity, what would've happened if I lost someone elses horse?

What I'm getting at is that while a community herd looks great on paper, at the human level it has all the makings for a very real disaster. I'd be for it at a clan type level, but then what happens if 4/5 of the population has to carry 1/5 due to mismanagement of their herd.

So in the end I think a very libertarian veiwpoint is nesscessary when it comes to animal management, even though I'd like to believe otherwise.

[Glen]

The goal is rapid population growth of our colony and its domesticated animals. IMO its not communistic enough, however my main concern is what happens if a major disaster happens to the herd due to someones personal negligence. I lost my hounds due to my own stupidity, what would've happened if I lost someone elses horse?

What I'm getting at is that while a community herd looks great on paper, at the human level it has all the makings for a very real disaster. I'd be for it at a clan type level, but then what happens if 4/5 of the population has to carry 1/5 due to mismanagement of their herd.

So in the end I think a very libertarian veiwpoint is nesscessary when it comes to animal management, even though I'd like to believe otherwise.

Splitting the herds into a few groups is probably a wise precaution...if we have enough people with experience managing livestock for that. Do we?

[Norbert]

Splitting the herds into a few groups is probably a wise precaution...if we have enough people with experience managing livestock for that. Do we?

I think soon, as people a being trained.

[Glen]

I think soon, as people a being trained.

So probably this is something to do at the new site, after the Great Trek?

Would make sense to plan it out from that point.

[Gerard-ABC]

Probably be a good idea not to concentrate ALL that we have of *anything* in one place, once we get to the new place - weapons, medicine, food, animals, tools, equipment.

Too much risk of theft from one place and we loose everything. Same if a tree falls on to a building / tent, or a fire, or even, an Indian attack.

Not sure how much of an idea it is to split things up before the move.


Regards,
Gerard

[Glen]

Probably be a good idea not to concentrate ALL that we have of *anything* in one place, once we get to the new place - weapons, medicine, food, animals, tools, equipment.

Too much risk of theft from one place and we loose everything. Same if a tree falls on to a building / tent, or a fire, or even, an Indian attack.

Not sure how much of an idea it is to split things up before the move.


Regards,
Gerard

I think before the move, the logistics just aren't there for more than one or two sites for most things.

After the move it will probably make more sense. Maybe something based on these manorials or neighborhoods or whatever you want to call them.

[Othniel]

Well need something like stores to distrubute goods... Can we have older childern work on signs, and other stuff pertaining to not only astetics but to our sense of direction?

[Norbert]

Well need something like stores to distrubute goods... Can we have older childern work on signs, and other stuff pertaining to not only astetics but to our sense of direction?

Yes, it would be fairly easy to use wood slabs, and natural pigments for the signs. It will save on other materials. As we learn to work the more permenat dyes, we can make them so they can even be left out in the rain. PLEASE do not use paper for them, it has more use elsewhere.

[Bety]

Actually - what livestock we have?

[SionEwig]

Actually - what livestock we have?

Take a look at the thread titled " Newest Possible Population Numbers (including animals)"

[Glen]

I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread, so that the conversations go to the chat or other appropriate areas.