ALT: Major Items for Community Request

[Norbert]

As most of you know by now, each member will be receiving 4 tons (8,000 lbs/apx 3,629 kg) of extra equipment at the settlement site. How much gear should be dedicated to items for the betterment of the community as a whole? What Items would you like to see placed at the disposal of the community?

[Norbert]

By the way, I was asked to work on a list for 8 members, and I found it useful to be able to pool resources and avoiding a lot of low nescessity duplication on the list. One of the advantages to this that I would likes you to consider is with the ability to pool resources for a sub-community, we were able to get larger items like a water tower with a 1,685 gallon water tank and things for a bath house with a 1,475 gallon tank for hot water (Hot Showers!). All told, each member was able to have what they need, and contributed an average of 1,296 lbs towards the community. Items for defence, items for Doctor Finney, parts for a saw mill, Hydralic RAM Pumps for Irrigation, etc.

We have the pumps to move about 68 Gallons of Water per minute to fields, but we need items to help distribute the water to the crops.

(BTW, for those not familiar with the RAM pump, it is a pump that uses water pressure to pump. No outside fuel or energy besides the wter flowing into it. I mentioned them once before, and while the weight I gave at that time was valid, it was for one made using PVC pipe. The one listed on the reference thread is cast iron, and samples of these are still in use after more than 120 YEARS!)

[Psychomeltdown]

I suggest a ton per member goes to the Community pool. That's technically leave us with 650 plus tnns of items that can be used to build up our civilization, etc.

Though a lot of the Community stuff I'm thinking of are ploughs, seeds, and Livestock things (metal bits to make saddles and all that other good stuff needed for riding)

Figure 500 lbs of alfalfa, oats, Ryegrass or Tall Fescue to replace the grasses in SFB currently.

[Ward]

I suggest a ton per member goes to the Community pool. That's technically leave us with 650 plus tnns of items that can be used to build up our civilization, etc.

Though a lot of the Community stuff I'm thinking of are ploughs, seeds, and Livestock things (metal bits to make saddles and all that other good stuff needed for riding)

Figure 500 lbs of alfalfa, oats, Ryegrass or Tall Fescue to replace the grasses in SFB currently.



The list that Norbert made for are group will have seeds for over 265 Acres of Farm land .

[SionEwig]

I suggest a ton per member goes to the Community pool. That's technically leave us with 650 plus tnns of items that can be used to build up our civilization, etc.

Though a lot of the Community stuff I'm thinking of are ploughs, seeds, and Livestock things (metal bits to make saddles and all that other good stuff needed for riding)

Figure 500 lbs of alfalfa, oats, Ryegrass or Tall Fescue to replace the grasses in SFB currently.

How about rather than saying a set amount, a list of what is developed and then think how much will be needed from all.

Now some very strong recommendations on things that everyone should have in this resupply (if they don't already) is a great idea. Like how many months of food for each family (which will be different weights of course depending on the family size, etc.).

[Norbert]

How about rather than saying a set amount, a list of what is developed and then think how much will be needed from all.

Now some very strong recommendations on things that everyone should have in this resupply (if they don't already) is a great idea. Like how many months of food for each family (which will be different weights of course depending on the family size, etc.).

As to food, someone figured at least 150 lbs per adult. I used 200 lbs, but seed to plant 230 acres of crops from the 'sub-community' I was working on.

[Ward]

How about rather than saying a set amount, a list of what is developed and then think how much will be needed from all.

Now some very strong recommendations on things that everyone should have in this resupply (if they don't already) is a great idea. Like how many months of food for each family (which will be different weights of course depending on the family size, etc.).


Yes to cover my family with my and TBears we need 2,200 lbs of food.
Thats 150 lbs for adult and 100 lbs for each kid.

[SionEwig]

As to food, someone figured at least 150 lbs per adult. I used 200 lbs, but seed to plant 230 acres of crops from the 'sub-community' I was working on.

That's 2 months worth on the 3000 cal heavy labor plan. That little? We kind of skimped the first time around (with only 1 month worth) and look how close to the edge it has put us.

[Ward]

well rember we are going to have over 1320 oxen come over when ever thing moved I can see killing off some at less 100 .

[Psychomeltdown]

well rember we are going to have over 1320 oxen come over when ever thing moved I can see killing off some at less 100 .
ouch.

I always wince when I hear someone talking about slaughtering some animals...:rolleyes:


i think a fixed amount for those that are only two people, wife and husband, and a variable amount based upon how many people are in your family. Considering that the two people families will be far better off material wise than the Ward Clan with the dozen plus people.

Ward and the other specialists have skills that we need, therefore that can be their Community Property. The rest of us can be the ones getting a chunk taken out of their weigh, while Ward, Norbert, etc can be allowed to look to what their family needs and use their knowledge to teach others what they need to know...


What things do we need, as a community.

Lumber Mill
Grain Mill
Silos
Warehouses
Barns/Stables
Docks
Etc...

[Norbert]

ouch.

What things do we need, as a community.

Lumber Mill
Grain Mill
Silos
Warehouses
Barns/Stables
Docks
Etc...

Lumber Mill: 3x 60" Saw Blades and Mandrels. Requires power (I have plans for a water powered mill in the set of Technical Books I got, though it might be a good idea to get one or two more copies of each (516 lb for 1 set))
Grain Mill: 1 Windmill Powered Grinder
Well Digging: 2 Hand Digging sets
Well Pumps: 360 lbs for a windmill pump, 70 lbs more for hand pump supplement.
Water Storage: 1685 gallon Covered Fiberglass tank: 389 lbs
Water Storage: 1475 gallon Covered Fiberglass tank: 351 lbs
(I figure on setting up the smaller tank as a large water heater, I worked with one at a camp which provided hot water for 300-400 campers showers, heated by a wood stove. It can be done)
1" Schedule 80 PVC Pipe for Fresh Water Distribution: .42 lb/foot

I recommend taking canning jars and extra seals for them for future preservation of food. 1/2 lb per 2 Quart Jar (we took 1200 per member). Also, food coming across could be in the jars already.

I also took 3/4", 1", and 1-1/2" cable (200 yards each) for logging, more would be useful for stumping.

[Psychomeltdown]

I think we should spring for a Library, a Librarian, and a Scribe.

There's a lot of books that we'll be needing and like many a things, I'm not really comfortable in just letting them stay in the hands of people who really don't have the skills or knowledge to use them.

This is mainly referring to technical, engineering, etc books. personal novels, etc can be kept by the individual.

I'm sure a well made Library can be put up, along with the resources devoted to keeping a person caring for the book and another who'll be able to copy out the things that are needed (plans, schematics, etc) in a clean and professional hand.

We'll also need a lot of paper...

[Ward]

ouch.

I always wince when I hear someone talking about slaughtering some animals...:rolleyes:


i think a fixed amount for those that are only two people, wife and husband, and a variable amount based upon how many people are in your family. Considering that the two people families will be far better off material wise than the Ward Clan with the dozen plus people.

Ward and the other specialists have skills that we need, therefore that can be their Community Property. The rest of us can be the ones getting a chunk taken out of their weigh, while Ward, Norbert, etc can be allowed to look to what their family needs and use their knowledge to teach others what they need to know...


What things do we need, as a community.

Lumber Mill
Grain Mill
Silos
Warehouses
Barns/Stables
Docks
Etc...


Well I brought one plow aready I will let others bring Plows this time .
I also am bring 50 tech books and 100 reading books ,
Also the Wife Remind me about her Dads old Hand cranked Record Player he had in Korea that plays 1 album when cranked up it weigh in at 45 lbs
I also have listed 600 Albums for it .
People dont forget to bring some spices I have 100 lbs of them and no you can't get any from me .

[Psychomeltdown]

yeah, Music's always been a big thing for me. Though for the life of me I can't remember any of the words to any of the songs I've listen to (and I've listened to some songs hundreds of times, really), the tune itself is soothing and comforting.

I wonder if it's possible to have the ASBs make the records out of something other than vinyl? I mean doesn't that wear out after a few hundred listening? If so, I'll join you in bringing along some music. :D


I'll probably be bringing along 100 books also, about 2 lbs each? Along with a copy of the Tech manuals, though that's Community Property...

[Norbert]

I think we should spring for a Library, a Librarian, and a Scribe.

There's a lot of books that we'll be needing and like many a things, I'm not really comfortable in just letting them stay in the hands of people who really don't have the skills or knowledge to use them.

This is mainly referring to technical, engineering, etc books. personal novels, etc can be kept by the individual.

I'm sure a well made Library can be put up, along with the resources devoted to keeping a person caring for the book and another who'll be able to copy out the things that are needed (plans, schematics, etc) in a clean and professional hand.

We'll also need a lot of paper...

Copy/Printer Paper is 49.5 lbs per case (5000 sheets)
Journel/Lab Books are 5 lbs for each 500 pages
Pencils ar 1 lb/gross (144)
Pens are 1 lb/48

As to technical books:
How much Tech would we be interested in loosing? I've have a catalog of republished books and manuals that covers just about every aspect of technology from preserving food, making beer, wine and distilled alcohols, through building and maintaining metalshop equipment. Covers working with clay, cement, construction, toys, chemical plants pre-1900, large scale gunpowder manufacture from 1900s, Surviving on 5 acres of land, steam engines, steam locomotives, producer gas (derived from wood, popular during WWII) engines, and just about anything else we might want. Some of it might not be practical in our near future, but it would be nice to have when we can use it. I figure the set comes to about 516 pounds.

[Psychomeltdown]

For the time being we'll probably be stuck with only being able to reproduce mechanical things, for the next couple of generations maybe. But we should also plan for the future, meaning getting engineering books on materials science, physics, chemistry, etc. If we can't build it, then we can at least keep a foundation of knowledge for our children to build upon.

We may be stuck in pre 1900 tech level, but we can still bring things that can be used to create tech up to 2000 level in future generations...

[Ward]

Myself I just hope we dont fall below 1880's in tech . In the next ten generations ,

[Psychomeltdown]

Myself I just hope we dont fall below 1880's in tech . In the next ten generations ,
I think we'll be okay, after all we have 2780 population.

If we manage to grow, by internal births and immigration, add in a little efficient farming, manufacturing, we should be able to continue to grow for the next couple of generations.

[Norbert]

BTW, some large pans for evaporating salt, now that we can really think of them, would help. about 25 miles south is a site (Union City/Alvaredo) that was set up as a salt works around 1857.

We also need burlap bags for grains (10 lb for 100)

Also, seed for Sorgum would be useful (molasses, sugar).

I see falling back to perhaps 1890-1910 technology inevitable, for about 20 years, when we should rapidly advance back up the ladder. We have the advantage of knowing things can be done, a head start anyway on advancement.

[Norbert]

Did some hunting on logging mills, and found one on skids with a steam engine that if it were built with modern materials would be about 9000 lbs. Hook a cable to a tree, and use its power to pull it into position. But, hauling planks out instead of logs is much easier (and lighter!). We also could use scrap material to power it, leaving less to clear out of the area:D .

[Ward]

Did some hunting on logging mills, and found one on skids with a steam engine that if it were built with modern materials would be about 9000 lbs. Hook a cable to a tree, and use its power to pull it into position. But, hauling planks out instead of logs is much easier (and lighter!). We also could use scrap material to power it, leaving less to clear out of the area:D .



Right who would give up most of there stuff to get this iteam .

[Psychomeltdown]

Right who would give up most of there stuff to get this iteam .
I'm sure it can be taken out of the Weight for community property thing. I mean this is one of the items we'll be needing. Makes life hella easier for us all.

[Norbert]

Did some hunting on logging mills, and found one on skids with a steam engine that if it were built with modern materials would be about 9000 lbs. Hook a cable to a tree, and use its power to pull it into position. But, hauling planks out instead of logs is much easier (and lighter!). We also could use scrap material to power it, leaving less to clear out of the area:D .

16 lbs each from 560 members.:p

And we have an NPC who has worked in mills (Kilngirls son-in-law). Just need to get people experienced with steam.

[Othniel]

A furnace or a Kiln.

[Gerard-ABC]

Think about it, we can now have 3 ways to generate electricity - water / hydro, solar, and steam. This could let us have more electricity-powered equipment.....

Perhaps a couple of mini fridges to store medicines in ?

Laptop computers - but we ask the ASBs to standardise on them, so that we can swap parts when required to keep them working.

Metal drilling machines / lathes


I do like the idea of using more steam power - it's overlooked most of the time.


Sophie and I have decided to ask the ASBs to add the following seeds:
( for the community )

100 lb raspberry seeds / plants ( 50-50 split )
100 lb onions < as above >
50 lb carrots < as above >

Not sure if the conditons are ok to grow these or not, but also 100 lb of cocoa tree beans, for making chocolate.


Regards,
Gerard

[bdziec]

Heres an idea, thou this would help down the down.See how diesel intended his engine to run on peanut??oil. may be some small diesels that could run on corn, sunflower or what ever oil. unless proccessing them would take more man hrs that could be used for something elsemore productive.

[Norbert]

Heres an idea, thou this would help down the down.See how diesel intended his engine to run on peanut??oil. may be some small diesels that could run on corn, sunflower or what ever oil. unless proccessing them would take more man hrs that could be used for something elsemore productive.

Production of vegetable oils may be a bit to intensive. But, during WWII several plans were available to convert an internal combustion engine to run on 'producer gas', which is produced from wood and/or coal. "Gas-Engines and Producer-Gas Plants", 5-1/2"x8-1/2" softcover, 314 pages. May be useful for 'more primitive' engines of older tractors, and the like. Wouldn't want to run a modern engine on it, probably.

[Norbert]

Think about it, we can now have 3 ways to generate electricity - water / hydro, solar, and steam. This could let us have more electricity-powered equipment.....



Hydro Power is distinctly possible, looking at 1895 topo maps of the area in question, there is a large creek (large enough to show on a 15 minute map) that comes out of what looks to be a fairly steep walled valley. Something a now deceased cousin said (he was an inventor, and worked with many different ideas) is that a standard electric motor can be changed into a generator.

Don't forget Wind Power. Average wind speed in the bay area is 4.7mph. All you need, besides the generator, is a tower that gives 30 feet of clearance above anything within 300 feet. Listed on the Reference Thread is the Bergey XL 1-24 wind generator, 105 lbs. Output is 24 Volts DC. While it doesn't run under about 6mph, it is a supplemental power source.

Steam is dependable, but would be labor intensive, for now anyway.

Solar should be good, depending on cloud conditions.

A combination of all would be nice to have though.

[jolo]

Assuming that people from my settlement will get some stuff, too, I'll do a list for four members (3 NPC's and I).

4 wagons - they should be usable as simple dinghys, the covers should be usable as sails. The rest should be good to build plows and 2-wheeled carriages.

16000 lbs load:

4000 lbs community stuff

2000 lbs cement, mainly for strengthening dams

100 lbs 2 wheel barrows

50 lbs 4 large buckets for concrete, mortar, or the likes

200 lbs manual concrete/mortar mixer

2000 lbs simple 2-wheeled tractor and accessories for plowing, drenching, pulling, transport, and more, including spare parts

350 lbs different oils for our different machines; the containers can be used for oil distillation later

1800 lbs different fuels for our different machines; the containers can be used for gas production later

400 lbs for yokes, riding equipment, replacement parts, and the likes

700 lbs for turn table pedals, iron parts of spade and shovels, replacement blades for saws, and so on.

300 lbs materials for building electronic components (mainly for joining different electricity sources into a grid)

1000 lbs for dried food

1000 lbs for seeds (mostly the nearly-no-maintenance stuff)

400 lbs of spices

400 lbs of toilet articles (mainly toilet paper)

Remains: Fishing equipment (nets, sails, ropes...)

A few useful insects for pollination, honey, and wachs production.

[Ghost 88]

[quote=jolo]
200 lbs manual concrete/mortar mixer

You can save more wieght by using a lighter manual mixing device. It looks like a garden hoe with big holes in the blade.Weight 2-5 lbs

[jolo]

[quote=jolo]
200 lbs manual concrete/mortar mixer

You can save more wieght by using a lighter manual mixing device. It looks like a garden hoe with big holes in the blade.Weight 2-5 lbs

2 or 3 of them should be sufficient, thanks.

Maybe I'll add a gas welder and some gas for the saved weight.

[Ward]

just don't forget to bring socks they come in at a pair for .25 lbs a pair .

[jolo]

just don't forget to bring socks they come in at a pair for .25 lbs a pair .

Can't we have 10 000 lbs... :(

[Ward]

Can't we have 10 000 lbs... :(


Well we are able to have hot water for showers , and flush toilets with 4 ton's .

[Psychomeltdown]

Y'know Jolo you're gonna have to be planning for long term survival. sure we'll need some modern equipment to help things out, but you're pretty much going for all modern equipment. We won't be able to replace the parts for decades and gasoline or even plant extract oil is something that's gonna be hella difficult.


Go lowish tech, man/horse power is what we'll all have to be relying upon...

[Psychomeltdown]

Well we are able to have hot water for showers , and flush toilets with 4 ton's .
In Ianopolis maybe, but what about the surrounding settlements? I guess shithouses and wells are going to be used often there. :rolleyes:

[Ward]

In Ianopolis maybe, but what about the surrounding settlements? I guess shithouses and wells are going to be used often there. :rolleyes:


Well Norbert and I were talking last night and figured if we build small comunity neiborhoods around 25 Members (24 of them ) They each could have hot water , running water , and flush toilets .

[Doctor What]

Hydro Power is distinctly possible, looking at 1895 topo maps of the area in question, there is a large creek (large enough to show on a 15 minute map) that comes out of what looks to be a fairly steep walled valley. Something a now deceased cousin said (he was an inventor, and worked with many different ideas) is that a standard electric motor can be changed into a generator.

All else fails, you can always make an artificial dam (say about 10-30 feet high) and have the generator hooked up to the run-off water. A bit complicated (and we'll be creating an artificial pond in the process) but doable in year two or three.

[SionEwig]

Given this some thought, one item that should get consideration for inclusion in the list of Community Items is a piano.

[Psychomeltdown]

Well Norbert and I were talking last night and figured if we build small comunity neiborhoods around 25 Members (24 of them ) They each could have hot water , running water , and flush toilets .
I think we're going to have to spread out a little more than that.

Sure there may only be 2780 of us, but remember it takes probably two acres to feed a person, with two crops a year, that's about 3500 acres, if we're going for a large enough surplus for seed and storage.

possibly 8000 acres cleared? with about 60% of the grown adult population dedicated to farming that's about 8 acres per person, 4 acres planted, 4 acres in farrow.

2780 people
1670 adults
1000 farmers
8000 plus acres.

that's about 10 square miles of farmland...

[Matt]

I would like to see each wagon include 1 or 2 thousand rounds of .30-06.

[Ward]

I would like to see each wagon include 1 or 2 thousand rounds of .30-06.


Well I would agree with that but if they bring Reloads that fine also .

[Norbert]

Given this some thought, one item that should get consideration for inclusion in the list of Community Items is a piano.

Upright Piano 800 lbs
'Cabinet' Organ (hand powered) 350 lbs
Already figured them in.

[Psychomeltdown]

actually thinking on it some more, we'll need 500 acres, depending upon the crop, to sustain us for about most of the year.
500 acres in fallow.
500 acres planted with crops to renew the soil.
500 acres of feed for the pigs, sheep, cattle, horses, etc. (alfalfa, etc)
500 acres planted with misc stuff, cotton, marijuana, etc.
2000 acres for the animals we have now (1300+)

Though this is all pretty much when things are settled, maybe year two?



figure for now, we plant everything we've got.

Still that means at least 600 acres. and when things continue to grow, we'll still need to expand outward, we can't have huge fields and everyone living together in a single city.

[Norbert]

All else fails, you can always make an artificial dam (say about 10-30 feet high) and have the generator hooked up to the run-off water. A bit complicated (and we'll be creating an artificial pond in the process) but doable in year two or three.

I drew a rough topo map based on 1895 topo map of Berkley. Has intervals of 25 feet up to the 100 foot level, and 100 foot after that. It can give a rough idea of the area. There is a valley on a stream at 100 foot level that I think has promise for hydro power, at least on a amsll scale. Ward and I were talking of it and setting up electric powered equuipment above the dam. Less line to get and use.

[Ward]

Think of the small neijborhoods as small farming towns and if we uses squares for the area we could have 4 neigborhoods togther thats a 100 members and ther families . yes that ends up with 8 small towns of 100 families in each . each comunity would have 100 tons worth of supplys to get ideams for the comunity if everone thoughs in 1 ton of there idaems , or 50 tons if they though in 0.5 tons each member .

[Norbert]

I think we're going to have to spread out a little more than that.

Sure there may only be 2780 of us, but remember it takes probably two acres to feed a person, with two crops a year, that's about 3500 acres, if we're going for a large enough surplus for seed and storage.

possibly 8000 acres cleared? with about 60% of the grown adult population dedicated to farming that's about 8 acres per person, 4 acres planted, 4 acres in farrow.

2780 people
1670 adults
1000 farmers
8000 plus acres.

that's about 10 square miles of farmland...

Using what one group has for seeds, and info Doctor What put in the Reference Thread for crop yields, I came up with 466.89 tons of fruits and vegetables from 206 acres using half the average yield. I don't have information yet on the other 93 acres of crops types. And Ward has another 35 acres worth of seeds.

By the way, figure 4 acres spring crop, 4 acres fall crop, 4 acres fallow (1/3, not 1/2). It is also very possible that we will pull 2 crops this year.

Figuring 1.5 lbs of fruits and vegetables per day per adult, we need 761.025 tons per 365 days.

[Doctor What]

Using what one group has for seeds, and info Doctor What put in the Reference Thread for crop yields, I came up with 466.89 tons of fruits and vegetables from 206 acres using half the average yield. I don't have information yet on the other 93 acres of crops types. And Ward has another 35 acres worth of seeds.

By the way, figure 4 acres spring crop, 4 acres fall crop, 4 acres fallow (1/3, not 1/2). It is also very possible that we will pull 2 crops this year.

Figuring 1.5 lbs of fruits and vegetables per day per adult, we need 761.025 tons per 365 days.

So--if we pull in ~500 tons/crop and we can pull off two crops/year, we'll end up with ~250 tons of surplus? This is assuming using just average (actually below average) yields on just the the crops you calculated.

And we haven't included stuff from pigs, chickens, fish, seafood, etc...

[Norbert]

So--if we pull in ~500 tons/crop and we can pull off two crops/year, we'll end up with ~250 tons of surplus? This is assuming using just average (actually below average) yields on just the the crops you calculated.

And we haven't included stuff from pigs, chickens, fish, seafood, etc...

By the way, that 466 ton crop is (now that I worked some numbers by themselves) 38.5% average yield. This is taking into account lack of storage facilities, bad weather, and the like. Usable yields will increase with the improvement of infrastructure.

[Doctor What]

By the way, that 466 ton crop is (now that I worked some numbers by themselves) 38.5% average yield. This is taking into account lack of storage facilities, bad weather, and the like. Usable yields will increase with the improvement of infrastructure.

So even if we end up with ~75% yield and have just one crop come in, we'll be okay? Nice....

Of course--it will be a while before we can hit that 75% level...

[Norbert]

So even if we end up with ~75% yield and have just one crop come in, we'll be okay? Nice....

Of course--it will be a while before we can hit that 75% level...

Remember thats not taking into account everyone elses seeds! Figure 412 acres of the crops I have numbers for, and, surplus. Just have to get the first of the crops in, so figure after 2 months after planting, we will be harvesting something or the other full time.

[SionEwig]

Upright Piano 800 lbs
'Cabinet' Organ (hand powered) 350 lbs
Already figured them in.

Thank you :). Though I think that we can get a good one for much less weight than that, 400 to 500 is what I think ours weighs but I guess I will need to look around. Don't forget spare parts for both.

[Norbert]

Thank you :). Though I think that we can get a good one for much less weight than that, 400 to 500 is what I think ours weighs but I guess I will need to look around. Don't forget spare parts for both.

The 800 lbs for the piano was an 1900 Upright Grand from Sears. 800 lbs was shipping weight. Big crate, anyone? They were usually sturdy and decent finshed wood!(the crates, that is!):D

[SionEwig]

The 800 lbs for the piano was an 1900 Upright Grand from Sears. 800 lbs was shipping weight. Big crate, anyone? They were usually sturdy and decent finshed wood!(the crates, that is!):D

Heck yes it is a big crate, LOL. When I was growing up, our next door neighbors got one shipped to them and us kids turned the crate into a large clubhouse that lasted for years, it was huge.

[Othniel]

The 800 lbs for the piano was an 1900 Upright Grand from Sears. 800 lbs was shipping weight. Big crate, anyone? They were usually sturdy and decent finshed wood!(the crates, that is!):D
We could use those crates for lots of things....:p

[Norbert]

Hydroelectric, anyone? Nautilus hydro plant, 230 lbs (no component more than 95 lbs), produces 2000 watts with 12.5' head of water (doable, looking at topo maps of Berkley). 10"x20' aluminum pipe for the intake runs 60 lbs each, I figure we could do it with 200' or less (600 lbs max). Given the size of the watersource I am thinking of using, we could probably run 3 of them for 6000 watts output. Maintenance Item: 75 lb every 7-10 years.

Solar Power? 15,000 amphours of Sealed Lead Acid Batteries, plus Power Supply/Charger, Pulse Conditioner, 2750 watt inverter (12VDC>120VAC), Solar Controller, with several spares for all but the batteries: 1498 lbs (I originally figured 1520 lbs for lower amphours). 55watt Flexible Solar Panel 3.7 lb each (Designed for Military use, will operate with bullet holes in it, clamed to be very highly resistent to damage).

Wind Power? 1000watt wind generator 105 lbs. 80 foot tower 175 lbs.

Moving the Power:
Gauge: Feet per pound (1 Strand): ohms/1000 feet
0000: 1.56: 0.049
000: 1.97: 0.0618
00: 2.48: 0.0779
0: 3.13: 0.983
1: 3.95: 0.1239
2: 4.98: 0.1563
4: 7.91: 0.2485
6: 12.58: 0.3951
8: 21.01: 0.6282
10: 31.82: 0.9989
12: 50.59: 1.5880

Remember you need 3 wires on AC to move safely.

Using the Power:
Flourescent 12V Base: 2 lb
Flourescent 12 V Tubes: 1 lb
8cf 12/24V DC Chest Freezer 140 lbs
8cf 12/24V DC Chest Refrigerator 140 lbs
Staber Commercial Steel Low Energy Washing Machine 175 lb (1oz normal detergent per load, 110-150 watt hours per load, 18 lb clothes load, 5.5 Gallons Hot Water per load, avg load time 50-60 minutes)
4800 loads Laundry Soap (Commercial/Concentrated: 1/4oz per load) 75 lbs

17 cf Upright Freezer 190 lbs
24 cf Chest Freezer 397 lb
17 cf Refrigerator (no freezer) 190 lbs

[jolo]

I just realize it's 8000, not 4000 lbs per person.

That means another 16000 lbs for clothes, food, seeds, tree whips, cement, weapons, ammunition, and more. Also some more bullet- and knife-proof vests, some glues and other useful chemicals, and so on.

I suppose everyone could bring along equipment to start a "modern" trade in his spare time - some of the more heavy stuff will have to be divided upon more people.

Here a list:

- 2 Lumber Mills at 9000 lbs, one for Ianopolis, one for the fishing camp and Fort Monty.

- A paper mill

- 4 or 5 smithys at 2000 to 20000 lbs with different specialisation, even including a micro steel mill (stone and some iron parts can be produced here)

- 2 or 3 stone mills to process limestone, stone, and more

- 1 or 2 cement factories

- 4 or 5 chemical laboratories for more or less automatically distilling and processing alcohol, oil, and other substances. We will need medicine, explosives, and more.

- machines for digging out all the needed ressources

I suppose we could actually start a modern economy immediately with so much equipment. It should be possible to produce all needed chemicals and parts, even for electronics, locally. We won't be able to produce enough oil and other materials to afford a car for everyone, especially until we can extract mineral oil. We also shouldn't try to produce state of the art laptops. But simple PC's might even be possible.

As even the most rational production facilities will need a few to a few dozen people to run, we won't even need more than a few thousand lbs of equipment each. Some facilities like clay ovens, lime stone ovens, and so on, can be produced locally.

Everyone should try to find 2 jobs which compliment each other - a manual job to rest the brain, and a "home" job to rest the body, for instance. With 9am to 5pm working days we won't achieve much, and doing a single job more than that time also won't work. We also won't be able to afford house wifes for a long time.

We also need to cooperate with the local Amerindians asap. They can already build baskets and other useful things, we can easily teach them pottery and more. The fewer things we need to do ourselves, the more "modern" jobs we can create.

[Psychomeltdown]

I suppose we could actually start a modern economy immediately with so much equipment. It should be possible to produce all needed chemicals and parts, even for electronics, locally. We won't be able to produce enough oil and other materials to afford a car for everyone, especially until we can extract mineral oil. We also shouldn't try to produce state of the art laptops. But simple PC's might even be possible.
Huh?


We don't even have any food now. We're gonna starve in 27 days, we got nothing in the ground. We don't even have the equipment yet. We'll be using pretty much dragooned labor for the first six months, then probably a bartering system, and once we get enough surplus, get everything sorted out, then we can begin thinking of a 'modern economy'.


Plus when we do get the machines to make the 'modern' stuff, how is gonna be going out there mining the stuff, hauling the stuff, processing the stuff? do you know what quality of steel goes into making machine parts, do you know where all the iron mines are? coal mine? how to make large quantities of sulphuric acid?

1880's tech is what we're shooting for. We don't have the industrial base/skills to build anything any higher.

[jolo]

Huh?


We don't even have any food now. We're gonna starve in 27 days, we got nothing in the ground. We don't even have the equipment yet. We'll be using pretty much dragooned labor for the first six months, then probably a bartering system, and once we get enough surplus, get everything sorted out, then we can begin thinking of a 'modern economy'.


Plus when we do get the machines to make the 'modern' stuff, how is gonna be going out there mining the stuff, hauling the stuff, processing the stuff? do you know what quality of steel goes into making machine parts, do you know where all the iron mines are? coal mine? how to make large quantities of sulphuric acid?

1880's tech is what we're shooting for. We don't have the industrial base/skills to build anything any higher.

With 8000 lbs each, and around 500 members, we have more than enough weight allowance for all the machinery and quite a few of the ressources difficult to get atm.

I suppose everyone brings along enough food for a year. Some of the wagons can be converted into dinghys useful for fishing, other will be used to transport all the goods we need.

Gathering, hunting and fishing alone would probably support all of us if we are distributed over a large enough area - even though we'd have to share with the Amerindians in some way if we don't want them to starve.

Also, I suppose with all the food hunted, gathered, and fished, with survival foods at least being tried by a few of us, with gardening and some farming already started, and with all the animals, we have more than enough food already - of the 41(?) days of food stocks, only 5 to 6 have been used in the first 9 days, while more and more food is being produced.

Food is no problem at all.

Choosing our equipment wisely to get as much as possible asap is much more important.

We already have a fort, a fishing camp, some farms, a primitive shipyard, a primitive lumber mill, a small market, a currency, an organization.

We can easily start a pottery, an improved lumber mill, char coal production, production of quite a few chemicals and drugs (including soap, oils, acids, alcohol, and so on), a paper mill, and so on.

Thanks to all the parts and all the books, we will also soon be able to start producing metals (we just need to get the ore), to start a quarry for limestone (at Fort Monty) and maybe later a second one for other stones (at Ianopolis).

Once we are able to produce black powder in large enough quantities, we can easily make trips to surrounding hills and mountains to extract all the ores and other materials we need. Though for iron ore, we'll probably better establish a permanent quarry, at least after some time - saves a lot of explosives.

A lot of the chemicals and materials we need can be made from plants, animals, bones, bird feces, and a little bit of digging. We apparently even have enough people knowing enough in rather specific areas for that. Everything else we can look up.

We will have to rationalize a lot to make do with the few people we are, we will have to trade with the Amerindians asap and as much as possible to save labor, we will do a lot of things on a very small scale - but it's possible and even necessary imo.

I don't see any other way to keep up the standards we are used to in terms of medicine, communication, organisation, security, individual freedom, and so on.

[Psychomeltdown]

I don't see any other way to keep up the standards we are used to in terms of medicine, communication, organisation, security, individual freedom, and so on.
Hence the 1880s tech level we're shooting for.

What you're saying is not all that simple to even begin half of that, we're gonna need A LOT of labor. not 1800 men and women, half who are probably taking care of crops.

It's simple to say "We can get the natives to do the heavy lifting" but in reality its far far far far more difficult. We're pretty much stuck with the people we have on hand for the next 5 years at least.

[Norbert]

Right now, I know of ONE person who has worked lumber mills, and he and his family are going North (its NOT me). I know of ONE person with experience to operate a boiler to run the mill, Ward.

1880s tech is going to be workable, in a few YEARS. One Blacksmith that I know of.

Taking a years supply of food is going to cut you back to next to nothing for specialized equipment. Especially if you get materials like clothing and tools for day to day work. You can't go to the store to get a new pair of blue jeans or a shirt that you've worn out. I logged for several years, as well as have done farm work. Clothes wear out fast. Heavy use will wear out boots very quickly.

Taking more food means less seeds for planting, and at Fort Ian you may be lucky to get 25-30% of the crop we get further North. And the figures for crop yield that I mentioned are taking into account spoilage and lack of storage facilities. You plant an acre of tomatoes, how are you going to store them if you don't take jars to can them? They will rot on the vine before you can eat them. Same with other foods.

Take the Hand tools to make the tools to make the tools to amke the machines, and take the technical references to use those tools, and how to build each stage of the tool process. Bulk power will be steam. Why? Because it is easy to repair with the tools we can afford to bring. Electric tools wear out, and then are useless. Then its a doorstop, until you figure out what you can use the components for. Gasoline/diesel run out of fuel and lubricants and are useless until you can make the fuel from some other source.

Listen to us! We are trying to help you get to where you want to get to, by telling you that some of the things you are talking of are not practical for anything more than a couple of months. Instead of that tractor, which would make it easier for a couple of months, you would be better off with a animal pulled plow and harrow, and a couple of Schytes to cut the grain with. And you could use some of that weight for canning jars. Ward and I have figured a mininum of 1200 canning jars per member!

[jolo]

Hence the 1880s tech level we're shooting for.

What you're saying is not all that simple to even begin half of that, we're gonna need A LOT of labor. not 1800 men and women, half who are probably taking care of crops.

It's simple to say "We can get the natives to do the heavy lifting" but in reality its far far far far more difficult. We're pretty much stuck with the people we have on hand for the next 5 years at least.

It's a mistake to compare the efforts with modern factories which employ thousands of people for a single product. Those factories fulfill the demands of millions - each. I'm talking more about something inbetween what some people build on their own in their free time, and the work of some more or less good craftsmen with very small garages and few helpers. Only in farming and wood cutting will we need some more people. Everything else can be done by rather small groups of people, partly on the side, as the demand is very very low.

And I do not expect any natives to do any work requiring experience or discipline - at least for the next few years. But I would expect some trade, to ease some of the burden for us, and for them. Basket weaving and pottery is well within their range and would already help us a lot.

[SionEwig]

With 8000 lbs each, and around 500 members, we have more than enough weight allowance for all the machinery and quite a few of the ressources difficult to get atm.

I suppose everyone brings along enough food for a year. Some of the wagons can be converted into dinghys useful for fishing, other will be used to transport all the goods we need.

8000lbs per member is a lot of stuff possible no doubt, and you can possible fit at least some of the things you were proposing, the smaller ones. I don't think you have any idea how much most heavy industrial equipment weighs, and you're not just talking equipment but more production facilities.

The year of food (using the lowest weight possible which is freeze dried) for 2 adults on the heavy work 3000 cal/day diet is 1800 lbs, which is very possible and not necessarily a bad idea. Since the stuff if properly stored can last 10 to 20 years, using it when you can't make your own is not unreasonable. Not a bad idea to have the extra as that emergency back up.

Gathering, hunting and fishing alone would probably support all of us if we are distributed over a large enough area - even though we'd have to share with the Amerindians in some way if we don't want them to starve.

Go back and read the things that Doctor What had to say about hunting/gathering, it would be about all that you would be doing. Good point about the natives though.

Also, I suppose with all the food hunted, gathered, and fished, with survival foods at least being tried by a few of us, with gardening and some farming already started, and with all the animals, we have more than enough food already - of the 41(?) days of food stocks, only 5 to 6 have been used in the first 9 days, while more and more food is being produced.

Food is no problem at all.

Food is still a very big problem. We got 1 extra weeks worth from the big hunt, maybe 1 meals worth with other hunting, and if the Moderators are being generous maybe a couple days worth from fishing so far. More will keep coming in and yes some planting has started, but the vegetables are at least 45 days away and many are 90 to 180 days away. I think we will make it, but don't think that it won't be close.

And on the subject of most survival foods/items, don't depend on them. The real experts on the subject say that they are for survival for a short period, you spend more energy collecting them than you get from eating them. They are a great additional bonus while you are out doing other stuff, but they won't keep you going over the long term especially for the large groups that we have.

Choosing our equipment wisely to get as much as possible asap is much more important.

You are absolutely correct here, so listen to peoples advice, most of it is right on the money.

We already have a fort, a fishing camp, some farms, a primitive shipyard, a primitive lumber mill, a small market, a currency, an organization.

And exactly when did you take the time to build a fort?

We can easily start a pottery, an improved lumber mill, charcoal production, production of quite a few chemicals and drugs (including soap, oils, acids, alcohol, and so on), a paper mill, and so on.

Simple pottery in a fire, no big deal. A kiln will take you a while mainly due to experimenting with it before you get usable results, and that's once you find the usable clay. Improved lumber mill, again some experiments on what works best. Charcoal production the same. The rest (except for the soap) will take time, but you can probably get there maybe in a couple of years.

Thanks to all the parts and all the books, we will also soon be able to start producing metals (we just need to get the ore), to start a quarry for limestone (at Fort Monty) and maybe later a second one for other stones (at Ianopolis).

This one freaking cracks me up. You have no idea what is entailed in doing this. Even the easy metals are somewhat of a distance away for us to get good amounts of the ores. Then there is the problem with you figureing out which one of those rocks is the ore, and then knowing what to do with it. Lot harder than you can even imagine, and I've at least got an idea what to do there as far as smelting the ore goes. If you manage to locate and identify the limestone you could start a quarry, but then what do you do with it. Again lots of work and experiments. Cause if you've never done it you have no idea how much work is involved even with modern equipment. And by the way there is limestone and other calcium carbonate rocks in the Berkeley area.

Once we are able to produce black powder in large enough quantities, we can easily make trips to surrounding hills and mountains to extract all the ores and other materials we need. Though for iron ore, we'll probably better establish a permanent quarry, at least after some time - saves a lot of explosives.

Hey, I've been told that we shouldn't expect to be heading to the sulfur deposits that I have actually been at for around 2 years, and then we have to spend some time experimenting with the manufacture of the powder. We will get it done, just gonna take some time. And if you have not used explosives in you life, especially in mining operations, just go on and cut out your headstone cause you will not survive the experimant.

A lot of the chemicals and materials we need can be made from plants, animals, bones, bird feces, and a little bit of digging. We apparently even have enough people knowing enough in rather specific areas for that. Everything else we can look up.

Much of this section you are correct about, you just leave out that we will have to have the time to do it, and we will have to do a lot of experimentation to get it right. Looking stuff up will only help some.

We will have to rationalize a lot to make do with the few people we are, we will have to trade with the Amerindians asap and as much as possible to save labor, we will do a lot of things on a very small scale - but it's possible and even necessary imo.

I don't see any other way to keep up the standards we are used to in terms of medicine, communication, organisation, security, individual freedom, and so on.

That is why we will be lucky to even maintain the 1880s level that others are aspiring to. You have some good ideas, just think about them before you say that we can do all this stuff.

[jolo]

Right now, I know of ONE person who has worked lumber mills, and he and his family are going North (its NOT me). I know of ONE person with experience to operate a boiler to run the mill, Ward.

1880s tech is going to be workable, in a few YEARS. One Blacksmith that I know of.

Taking a years supply of food is going to cut you back to next to nothing for specialized equipment. Especially if you get materials like clothing and tools for day to day work. You can't go to the store to get a new pair of blue jeans or a shirt that you've worn out. I logged for several years, as well as have done farm work. Clothes wear out fast. Heavy use will wear out boots very quickly.

Taking more food means less seeds for planting, and at Fort Ian you may be lucky to get 25-30% of the crop we get further North. And the figures for crop yield that I mentioned are taking into account spoilage and lack of storage facilities. You plant an acre of tomatoes, how are you going to store them if you don't take jars to can them? They will rot on the vine before you can eat them. Same with other foods.

Take the Hand tools to make the tools to make the tools to amke the machines, and take the technical references to use those tools, and how to build each stage of the tool process. Bulk power will be steam. Why? Because it is easy to repair with the tools we can afford to bring. Electric tools wear out, and then are useless. Then its a doorstop, until you figure out what you can use the components for. Gasoline/diesel run out of fuel and lubricants and are useless until you can make the fuel from some other source.

Listen to us! We are trying to help you get to where you want to get to, by telling you that some of the things you are talking of are not practical for anything more than a couple of months. Instead of that tractor, which would make it easier for a couple of months, you would be better off with a animal pulled plow and harrow, and a couple of Schytes to cut the grain with. And you could use some of that weight for canning jars. Ward and I have figured a mininum of 1200 canning jars per member!

I know I could build a simple water driven lumber mill with just a few helping hands - which is completely sufficient for what we need. Steam driven would be better, and not impossible, though it takes longer to build and more skill to operate. I don't know if we need that much wood - most of the important things can be built without cutting trees into boards.

One (potential) blacksmith among 30 active posters. I worked in a place where metal was processed once - should have kept enough of it in my memory to do something in this area if necessary. That makes two out of 30 people knowing a little bit about the matter - I suppose it's even more. It's also not to difficult to build a primitive bronce age oven able to melt metal. We should be able to recycle broken metal parts within a few weeks - at least metals with low melting temperatures.

A years supply in dried food weighs no more than 100 lbs per person. It's only useful as supplementary food, but it'll keep us from starving or getting weak.

In a warm place like California, we can do with very little clothing if necessary, at least most of the year - like the Amerindians. We can also easily build clothes and shoes from leather, which will be pretty durable. As we wouldn't be city slickers anymore in such a situation, we can also use damaged or repaired clothing.

I suppose in the beginning, most fruits will be eaten pretty quickly after they are ripe. It's not like the north, where all the crops ripe at the same time. This alone reduces storage needs by far. Also, food can be stored in jars made of clay. I wouldn't carry lots of jars with me, as there's enough time to make them between planting and harvesting.

Steam engines need lubricants, too. And they are much more difficult to use. They are also big and slow, which means lots of dangerous constructions to divert their power to the different uses. I also see difficulties in producing large boilers at a high enough quality. Electricity is easier - all we need is some basic metal working (which we need for steam power, too). Oil for a few machines also won't be difficult to produce - only enough oil for a mass market of cars, engines, generators, and so on will be out of our reach for a long time.

Using machines a couple of months will help us a lot - and it'll safe us the time we need to produce the necessary things for them, and some more. With machines, we can have all the important work finished after 3 months, after which a few of the machines will still work and still be useful. The others will be useful for spare parts, for making copies, and for recycling. After the first things are done, manual work is completely sufficient to keep things up and expand wherever it's necessary.

The tractor for instance will make it much easier to plow the fields first time - while the animal plows can be used later. The tractor will be useful to build irrigation channels, to pull heavy objects away, and so on. It'll also increase productivity enough to plant a few crops good for making oil, so that we'll have the necessary fuel and lubricants later - bad quality, but good enough for using the machines whenever necessary for a few more years.

Btw. - I did cut grass with a scythe. It's a lot of work. The sooner we get past this level, the better for all of us.

[Ward]

Steam eng.s have less working parts then do a gas eng .
Also I can repair most parts of a steam eng with a hamer and forge . with a Gas Eng you will need a lath at less . and the tolances need to be finer then they do with the steam eng.

A good black smith could fix most steam engs but they would not be able to fix a gas powered vehical for a long time .

[jolo]

8000lbs per member is a lot of stuff possible no doubt, and you can possible fit at least some of the things you were proposing, the smaller ones. I don't think you have any idea how much most heavy industrial equipment weighs, and you're not just talking equipment but more production facilities.


We don't need equipment designed to satisfy mass markets for millions of people. We need equipment which can be found in third world countries to satisfy the needs of a few of the richer people or bureaucrats. Anyone who has ever been to a poor country can tell you how simple some things can be done, if necessary.


The year of food (using the lowest weight possible which is freeze dried) for 2 adults on the heavy work 3000 cal/day diet is 1800 lbs, which is very possible and not necessarily a bad idea. Since the stuff if properly stored can last 10 to 20 years, using it when you can't make your own is not unreasonable. Not a bad idea to have the extra as that emergency back up.


Your calculation amounts to slightly less than 3 lbs per person per day. I don't know what you are freeze drying here. Salad? Meat including 50% bones? I'd have difficulties swallowing 3 meals of a pound each day - and hydrated it's even more. Think of starch and other highly concentrated foods, then you get better numbers.


And on the subject of most survival foods/items, don't depend on them. The real experts on the subject say that they are for survival for a short period, you spend more energy collecting them than you get from eating them. They are a great additional bonus while you are out doing other stuff, but they won't keep you going over the long term especially for the large groups that we have.


I suppose they are good to add needed vitamins to a diet of dried foods. Also, some survival foods do have a lot of calories. And even if there is not much in them - slowing down and surviving is better than working hard and starving.


And exactly when did you take the time to build a fort?


The asb's delivered one with 8 apartments.


Simple pottery in a fire, no big deal. A kiln will take you a while mainly due to experimenting with it before you get usable results, and that's once you find the usable clay. Improved lumber mill, again some experiments on what works best. Charcoal production the same. The rest (except for the soap) will take time, but you can probably get there maybe in a couple of years.


I don't know how you come up with years - that's all possible within weeks. I'm not talking about big and fancy buildings with big and heavy machinery. I'm talking about small groups of people working more or less in the open on very simple equipment - third world like. And some of them not even as their main job (which will usually be farming, gardening, hunting, guarding, wood cutting, or the likes), but besides.


This one freaking cracks me up. You have no idea what is entailed in doing this. Even the easy metals are somewhat of a distance away for us to get good amounts of the ores. Then there is the problem with you figureing out which one of those rocks is the ore, and then knowing what to do with it. Lot harder than you can even imagine, and I've at least got an idea what to do there as far as smelting the ore goes. If you manage to locate and identify the limestone you could start a quarry, but then what do you do with it. Again lots of work and experiments. Cause if you've never done it you have no idea how much work is involved even with modern equipment. And by the way there is limestone and other calcium carbonate rocks in the Berkeley area.


We don't need "good amounts" of ores. A few stones and rocks with a little bit of metal in them are completely enough to build a small tool or whatever else is needed. You just throw them into a hot enough oven, the metal will find it's way automatically. Some ores will need some mixing with coal or the likes - we can easily look that up or try it. And we'll also have enough broken tools to get our metals from. Afaik, we have a few people able to identify different materials. But even if not, we'll be able to quickly find out by trial and error.

I only found a map with the actual production. I don't know about the deposits. Quarries are stone age tech - we'll be able to do it. Heating limestone also doesn't sound very difficult. Us cityslickers will take some time to figure it out, but I see no unsurmountable difficulties.


Hey, I've been told that we shouldn't expect to be heading to the sulfur deposits that I have actually been at for around 2 years, and then we have to spend some time experimenting with the manufacture of the powder. We will get it done, just gonna take some time. And if you have not used explosives in you life, especially in mining operations, just go on and cut out your headstone cause you will not survive the experimant.


Smaller deposits should be in our area, too. Afaik, it's not really rare. As we need explosives quickly, I'd suppose we should start looking for that earlier. It's also useful for a lot of other things, like conserving foods, afaik.

And I wouldn't bother with explosives (especially large amounts of black powder) unless I need to. But there appear to be enough people with experience in this regard here.


Much of this section you are correct about, you just leave out that we will have to have the time to do it, and we will have to do a lot of experimentation to get it right. Looking stuff up will only help some.


I'm not saying all can be done after a few days. But I feel some of you are underestimating the creativity of 3000 people let loose 5000 years in the past, with hundreds of pounds of equipment each.


That is why we will be lucky to even maintain the 1880s level that others are aspiring to. You have some good ideas, just think about them before you say that we can do all this stuff.


I do think about them. Our situation is just not comparable to that of 100 illiterate colonists from Europe with just a box of luggage each. We know more, we have more experiences, we can look things up, we have better and more tools and weapons, and so on. What they needed years or even decades for, we can do in weeks or months.

[jolo]

Steam eng.s have less working parts then do a gas eng .
Also I can repair most parts of a steam eng with a hamer and forge . with a Gas Eng you will need a lath at less . and the tolances need to be finer then they do with the steam eng.

A good black smith could fix most steam engs but they would not be able to fix a gas powered vehical for a long time .

I accept all of this. But we should be able to produce simple pistons as they were used in the first cars pretty quickly, once we are able to reproduce most of our tools. That's the most complicated part about a primitive gas engine. Valves and other parts will be pretty much the same.

Also, it's much easier to build a small gas engine than a big steam engine once the knowledge is there. The main advantage of the steam engine is it's ability to run on nearly anything flammable. Therefore I'm not against some people going that way.

[Ward]

We don't need equipment designed to satisfy mass markets for millions of people. We need equipment which can be found in third world countries to satisfy the needs of a few of the richer people or bureaucrats. Anyone who has ever been to a poor country can tell you how simple some things can be done, if necessary.



Your calculation amounts to slightly less than 3 lbs per person per day. I don't know what you are freeze drying here. Salad? Meat including 50% bones? I'd have difficulties swallowing 3 meals of a pound each day - and hydrated it's even more. Think of starch and other highly concentrated foods, then you get better numbers.



I suppose they are good to add needed vitamins to a diet of dried foods. Also, some survival foods do have a lot of calories. And even if there is not much in them - slowing down and surviving is better than working hard and starving.



The asb's delivered one with 8 apartments.



I don't know how you come up with years - that's all possible within weeks. I'm not talking about big and fancy buildings with big and heavy machinery. I'm talking about small groups of people working more or less in the open on very simple equipment - third world like. And some of them not even as their main job (which will usually be farming, gardening, hunting, guarding, wood cutting, or the likes), but besides.



We don't need "good amounts" of ores. A few stones and rocks with a little bit of metal in them are completely enough to build a small tool or whatever else is needed. You just throw them into a hot enough oven, the metal will find it's way automatically. Some ores will need some mixing with coal or the likes - we can easily look that up or try it. And we'll also have enough broken tools to get our metals from. Afaik, we have a few people able to identify different materials. But even if not, we'll be able to quickly find out by trial and error.

I only found a map with the actual production. I don't know about the deposits. Quarries are stone age tech - we'll be able to do it. Heating limestone also doesn't sound very difficult. Us cityslickers will take some time to figure it out, but I see no unsurmountable difficulties.



Smaller deposits should be in our area, too. Afaik, it's not really rare. As we need explosives quickly, I'd suppose we should start looking for that earlier. It's also useful for a lot of other things, like conserving foods, afaik.

And I wouldn't bother with explosives (especially large amounts of black powder) unless I need to. But there appear to be enough people with experience in this regard here.



I'm not saying all can be done after a few days. But I feel some of you are underestimating the creativity of 3000 people let loose 5000 years in the past, with hundreds of pounds of equipment each.



I do think about them. Our situation is just not comparable to that of 100 illiterate colonists from Europe with just a box of luggage each. We know more, we have more experiences, we can look things up, we have better and more tools and weapons, and so on. What they needed years or even decades for, we can do in weeks or months.


Yes but those 100 iliterate Colonist from Europe had a skill that was needed ,
When was the last time you made shoes , made a set of colthing , made a hut to live in plowed a field , Made soap , Delivered a baby , made string , weaved a rug . Or done any of the many things that you have to do with out 21 st centry convenceise . Rember those of us that have done any of these things are in are 50's except for Norbert but he was a youngest kid and his parents are only 4 years younger than my mother.

When was the last time you did not have a TV to watch . Besides summer camp . Instead of coming up with all these great plains why don't you and your people have some of old timers show you a few things . Like how to can food, plow a field , build a hut to live in .

[Norbert]

I accept all of this. But we should be able to produce simple pistons as they were used in the first cars pretty quickly, once we are able to reproduce most of our tools. That's the most complicated part about a primitive gas engine. Valves and other parts will be pretty much the same.

Also, it's much easier to build a small gas engine than a big steam engine once the knowledge is there. The main advantage of the steam engine is it's ability to run on nearly anything flammable. Therefore I'm not against some people going that way.


Ok, you've built a gas engine. What are you going to run it on?
Vegetable Oil? How many soybeans will you need to produce to run it for one hour? How many people is it going to take to collect the beans, then process the beans, to run it one hour? 4? 5?

Ok, I've built a steam tractor. What am I going to run it on?
Wood? 5 minutes of collecting or less and I run it a couple of hours.
How many people is it going to take to keep it running one hour? 1!

You will be tying up more of your resources higher tech than lower tech.

By the way, how about the bearings? What are you going to use?
What am I going to use for bearings? I know what I am going to use, and its most likely a lot more efficient to use what I am planning than yours.

The type of bearings I plan on using are so simple, and worked so well, that the only reason they are not used much anymore is that it became easier to use steel bearings.

[SionEwig]

Yes but those 100 iliterate Colonist from Europe had a skill that was needed ,
When was the last time you made shoes , made a set of colthing , made a hut to live in plowed a field , Made soap , Delivered a baby , made string , weaved a rug . Or done any of the many things that you have to do with out 21 st centry convenceise . Rember those of us that have done any of these things are in are 50's except for Norbert but he was a youngest kid and his parents are only 4 years younger than my mother.

When was the last time you did not have a TV to watch . Besides summer camp . Instead of coming up with all these great plains why don't you and your people have some of old timers show you a few things . Like how to can food, plow a field , build a hut to live in .

Thank you Ward,

Preach on Brother!!! I'm only 43 but have at least done many of those things you have listed (7 out of 8). And a good number I would rather have other people who know also keeping an eye out for me making mistakes. And a couple someone else should really do cause I'm not as fast or as good at them.

[kilngirl]

Taking more food means less seeds for planting, and at Fort Ian you may be lucky to get 25-30% of the crop we get further North. And the figures for crop yield that I mentioned are taking into account spoilage and lack of storage facilities. You plant an acre of tomatoes, how are you going to store them if you don't take jars to can them? They will rot on the vine before you can eat them. Same with other foods.

Instead of all the canning jars we would be better off drying a lot of our fruits and vegetables. Jars break, you have to have a supply of lids of which the sealing rubber doesn't always keep on new unused lids for long periods of time. Dried fruits and vegetables last longer, take up less space, weigh less and are easier to preserve, work and time wise. They can be rehydrated for use any time anywhere or some can be eaten as they are in their dry state.

[Ward]

Instead of all the canning jars we would be better off drying a lot of our fruits and vegetables. Jars break, you have to have a supply of lids of which the sealing rubber doesn't always keep on new unused lids for long periods of time. Dried fruits and vegetables last longer, take up less space, weigh less and are easier to preserve, work and time wise. They can be rehydrated for use any time anywhere or some can be eaten as they are in their dry state.


We are still using caning jars my Grandmother used back in the 1920's if you are carefull they will last a hell of long time .and these are the type that have the Glass lids . Yes I have dried iteams also I still like the taste of Caned foods better . I can see us doing both .

[Othniel]

I preffer jarred.

I'm thinking about storage. We need to be able to store anything, including saw dust (its a good cheap insulation)...

[Norbert]

Instead of all the canning jars we would be better off drying a lot of our fruits and vegetables. Jars break, you have to have a supply of lids of which the sealing rubber doesn't always keep on new unused lids for long periods of time. Dried fruits and vegetables last longer, take up less space, weigh less and are easier to preserve, work and time wise. They can be rehydrated for use any time anywhere or some can be eaten as they are in their dry state.

I agree, drying will be useful. But some vegetables hav a very high water content, like tomatos. As to tomatos, I know they can be dried, it takes quite a while. What could we get to process three or four tons (or more) of vegetables a day, though? The jars will be nice in the future though, even with the risk of them breaking. It will be quite a while before we will be able to produce glass jars, and someone will have to figure out how to do it.

[Norbert]

I preffer jarred.

I'm thinking about storage. We need to be able to store anything, including saw dust (its a good cheap insulation)...

If we risk a trip up to Mount Diablo, we may even be able to harvest ice in the winter, and I have plans for an ice house (storage of ice, that is).

Also, with glass sealed jars, some items that could be refrigerated could be stored in a wet cellar, which is a cellar with a spring in it. As long as you maintain drainage for the water, it will keep the items at the temperature of the water. Milk can also be stored this way. (At least, the farm book I have printed in 1900 says so:D )

[SionEwig]

We don't need equipment designed to satisfy mass markets for millions of people. We need equipment which can be found in third world countries to satisfy the needs of a few of the richer people or bureaucrats. Anyone who has ever been to a poor country can tell you how simple some things can be done, if necessary.

Perhaps poor wording on my part, but you were talking about stone working facilities and equipment and that stuff weighs lots, especially the moving equipment. Now I would love to have a D7 Cat, but it's just not feasable for us.



Your calculation amounts to slightly less than 3 lbs per person per day. I don't know what you are freeze drying here. Salad? Meat including 50% bones? I'd have difficulties swallowing 3 meals of a pound each day - and hydrated it's even more. Think of starch and other highly concentrated foods, then you get better numbers.

Actually I was using numbers from Mountain House freeze dried foods, who know what they are doing. You may get some better numbers, but you will be much shorter on the necessary protien and nutrients that can be supplied using this methods. I challenge you to come up with realistic numbers that are detailed showing a significantly lighter weight for a years diet providing 3000 cal/day that is balanced. And this doesn't even take into account the long term storage ability of this method.

A years supply in dried food weighs no more than 100 lbs per person. It's only useful as supplementary food, but it'll keep us from starving or getting weak.

Right, good one, find me the company.



I suppose they are good to add needed vitamins to a diet of dried foods. Also, some survival foods do have a lot of calories. And even if there is not much in them - slowing down and surviving is better than working hard and starving.

They are nice for a suppliment, after all if you are out doing something else and come across some of the stuff, you might as well pick it up, no argument there. But you miss the point - most survival foods ARE simply a method of slow starvation.


The asb's delivered one with 8 apartments.

Point there :) , but it will still take a good bit of work and labor to turn it into any kind of really usable fortification. Knowing similar apartment types, it just really isn't a fort. Maybe someone could ask Ian to take a picture of his building and post it for us to give a better idea.



I don't know how you come up with years - that's all possible within weeks. I'm not talking about big and fancy buildings with big and heavy machinery. I'm talking about small groups of people working more or less in the open on very simple equipment - third world like. And some of them not even as their main job (which will usually be farming, gardening, hunting, guarding, wood cutting, or the likes), but besides.

I'm going to stick with my estimate of getting ALL of what you had there done correctly will be a couple of years. It will simply take time to do stuff, cause it will probably not work on the first attempt, probably not on the second attempt. That doesn't mean that you won't be turning out some kind of product earlier, just that it will be a while before you get it optimized.



We don't need "good amounts" of ores. A few stones and rocks with a little bit of metal in them are completely enough to build a small tool or whatever else is needed. You just throw them into a hot enough oven, the metal will find it's way automatically. Some ores will need some mixing with coal or the likes - we can easily look that up or try it. And we'll also have enough broken tools to get our metals from. Afaik, we have a few people able to identify different materials. But even if not, we'll be able to quickly find out by trial and error.

Yes, you do need a good amount of ore, and by that I mean ore that is high grade. You obviously have absolutely how much rock needs to be moved to get usable ore. It can be a good amount. So no, a few rocks will not produce enough to make a small tool, unless you get lucky and find relatively pure ore. And no, you generally do not just throw the rocks into a hot enough oven, that generally only woks with what is referred to as 'native' metals. You also need to reduce the stuff to smaller pieces so that more metal can be extracted. All of this takes a heck of a lot of labor, unless you are in the exact right places, and the early mining is very labor intensive. Yes, we do have several people how can identify the different minerals and ores, six of them in my family and several others that have at least a bit of knowledge. Even more once some is found and what it looks like in the field can be demonstrated (you really don't want to depend on the guide books for that, their pictures are of specimens that have been cleaned up and are generally excellent examples. Yes trial and error will still be one of our main methods, but it will take time.

I only found a map with the actual production. I don't know about the deposits. Quarries are stone age tech - we'll be able to do it. Heating limestone also doesn't sound very difficult. Us cityslickers will take some time to figure it out, but I see no unsurmountable difficulties.

You found a styalized map with the principal mineral producing localities for California from 1990 - 2000. Nice enough, but it is barely useful and leaves more out that even someone who isn't in the geology/mining industry should be able to figure out what is wrong with it. And I never said that we couldn't operate a quarry, I asked what you would do with the limestone once you quarried it. Not to mention (once again) you are talking something that is exceptionally labor intensive, which is a resource that we will not have a lot of for a while.


Smaller deposits should be in our area, too. Afaik, it's not really rare. As we need explosives quickly, I'd suppose we should start looking for that earlier. It's also useful for a lot of other things, like conserving foods, afaik.

Nope, none that I have been able to find in any kind of form that we can use or access any time soon as easily as we can taking some wagons down to the deposits I have mentioned before north of Death Valley N.M.

And I wouldn't bother with explosives (especially large amounts of black powder) unless I need to. But there appear to be enough people with experience in this regard here.

Happily yes, we have some folks who know how to make stuff go boom and enjoy it. But this is still going to be something that we are going to need to be extremely cautious with, especially whn using it in mining applications. We will soon run out of reliable fuses and detonators.


I'm not saying all can be done after a few days. But I feel some of you are underestimating the creativity of 3000 people let loose 5000 years in the past, with hundreds of pounds of equipment each.

No, but considering your past history of doing so, it is understandable why people would think that you were. I do think that we cn pull most if not all of these things off, just not soon, certainly not until food production is more assured and that is going to take months.

[Othniel]

If we risk a trip up to Mount Diablo, we may even be able to harvest ice in the winter, and I have plans for an ice house (storage of ice, that is).
Yes, that was the basis of the idea to store the saw dust. Ice was packed in the stuff during the winter and sold during the summer. I was hoping for more than a few ice picks just for that, because with ice we eliminate a huge tech gap we have now...

(Cold storage is very important to me....):D

[Othniel]

Jolo this is about as nice as you'll get. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoovervilles)

[Ward]

Yes, that was the basis of the idea to store the saw dust. Ice was packed in the stuff during the winter and sold during the summer. I was hoping for more than a few ice picks just for that, because with ice we eliminate a huge tech gap we have now...

(Cold storage is very important to me....):D


That is something to do next year not this year . But yes do it I will miss home made Icecream .

[Ward]

iteam how many weight total weaight how many
Blackhawks 9 4 36 9
.357 ammo 4 40 160 4,000
,22 LR 4 44 176 20,000
.30-06 5 33 165 2,500
Toilet Paper Case 96 10 38.4 384 960
Tammpons 1000 10 39 390 10,000
2 Qt Cannining jars 1200 0.5 600 1,200
Ruber Gaskets 15 243 3,000
BAR 2 2 19.5 39 2
BAR Mag 20 rounds 40 2 80 40/ 800
Linseed Oil 1 Gal. 3 9 27 3x Gals.
Colt 1860 Revoler 2 x cylinders 10 3 30 20 cylinders 10 colts
Halkins caplocks 32 0.75 24 24
PC Nipples 20 4 1 4 80
Pcaps 5000 12 1 12 60,000

Coffee instant 100 100 1 100 100lbs
Teabags 200 100 1 100 20,000
Beds Double 20 70 1400 20
Chest of Drawers 20 40 800 20
Cranke Record Player 2 45 90 2
Albums 600 0.5 300 600
leather Recliners 2 67 134 2
Shelves mettal 10 10 100 10
Books Hardcovers 150 2 300 150
Boots 30 5 150 30
Halkins Rifle Barrels replacment 20 4 80 20
Sterling Silver Service 36 1 120 120 1
Wedgewood China 48 1 120 120 1 With Severing Dishs
Cyrstral servise 36 1 80 80 1
Lines for dinning 36 2 36 72 2
Lace taple cloth 3 3 5 15 3
Milking Cans 10 6 60 10
Milking Stools 5 3 15 5
Love seat 1 75 75 1
Davenport 5 125 625 6
Wing back chiars 12 25 300 12
Bug out kits 20 12 240 20
Personal survival kits 20 2 40 20
Personal Armor system 11 8.8 96.8 11
7 sets of ITLBV 7 4.4 30.8 7
LC-2 11 37.4 411.4 11
Socks 1200 0.25 400 1200
Blue Jeans 200 1.5 300 200
Ragg Wool Sweaters 40 1.5 60 40
Flannel Shirts 3 100 1 100 300
Underware 3 200 0.5 100 600
T-Shirts 5 150 1 150 750
Canvas Shirts 3 100 1 100 300
Boots 24 24 5 120 24
Towels 240 0.5 120 240
Walkie Talkies 5 3 15 5
BDU 30 2 60 30
Day packs 10 4 40 10
Multifuel Lantersn 10 4 40 10
Folding Chsirs 18 2 36 18
5 Gall Watercans 3 5 15 3
22 Gal water Barrels 6 11 66 6
Whistles 20 1 1 1 20
penlight 10 0.1 1 10
Batteries
aa 60 0.05 3 60
D 60 0.2 12 60
9 Volt 40 0.1 4 40
Ka Bar's 30 1 30 30
Krypton Bulbs 16 6 1 6 96
Lifeboat Matches 200 10 1 10 2000
Magnesium Firestaters 5 2 1 2 10
Lantern Box 1 7 7 1
Gil Net 12'x4' 4 0.25 1 4
Giskers Supersnips 4 0.25 1 4
50 hr Emerganvy Candles (2) 4 1.5 6 8
Field soap 4 80 1 80 320
Rain Gear 10 2 20 10
200 lightline 4 0.25 1 800'
Poncho 5 1 5 5
Pouncho Liners 5 2 10 5
150' Rapelling rope 2 9 18 300'

wax 2 1 2 2
Wepon Cleaning kits 10 3 30 10
Gun Oil Gal 5 8 40 5 Gal
Black powede Solvent Gal 5 8 40 5 Gal
Cleaning Patches 400 30 1 30 12,000
Plow 1 100 100
lines 60 4 240
blankets 120 4 480
recored needols 120 2 2 2 240




11129

11129

Well here is what
I'm taking for my family with out the food wich ends up 2,200 lbs
the rest went in with the Group list .

As you can see I 'm taking a lot of difrent iteams .don't mind my spelling .

[Norbert]

Yes, that was the basis of the idea to store the saw dust. Ice was packed in the stuff during the winter and sold during the summer. I was hoping for more than a few ice picks just for that, because with ice we eliminate a huge tech gap we have now...

(Cold storage is very important to me....):D

Nope, no Ice Picks, Ice Saws!! About the cold storage, 900 lbs and I can have an 8cf Refrigerator, and a 8cf freezer, and the power to run them day and night. Add about 300 lbs, and you can have a 17 cf Refrigerator (no freezer on it) and a 17 cf Upright Freezer. another 200 lbs instead of the upright freezer, and you can have a 25 cf chest freezer:D

(Seriously, though, it is possible!)

[Othniel]

That is something to do next year not this year . But yes do it I will miss home made Icecream .
Which is why I said in a few years...:p About year 3 I want to be able to be setting up resource colonies which the main settlement would feed in exage for their specfic goods. Arms of Ianpolis helping bring us to the late 1700s and early 1800s...These are all projects that will wait, but are reachable and sensible goals with the support of the main settlement, and hopefully more bodies reaching adulthood.

Think of it as a fifty year plan...

[Norbert]

Which is why I said in a few years...:p About year 3 I want to be able to be setting up resource colonies which the main settlement would feed in exage for their specfic goods. Arms of Ianpolis helping bring us to the late 1700s and early 1800s...These are all projects that will wait, but are reachable and sensible goals with the support of the main settlement, and hopefully more bodies reaching adulthood.

Think of it as a fifty year plan...


Ok, but in fifty years I am going to be a 93 year old Librarian!:D

Actually, the Technical Books I plan on bringing will make a lot of difference, they cover from 1880s to 1950s tech on most things. At least we will not have to completly reinvent the wheel!:D

[Othniel]

Nope, no Ice Picks, Ice Saws!! About the cold storage, 900 lbs and I can have an 8cf Refrigerator, and a 8cf freezer, and the power to run them day and night. Add about 300 lbs, and you can have a 17 cf Refrigerator (no freezer on it) and a 17 cf Upright Freezer. another 200 lbs instead of the upright freezer, and you can have a 25 cf chest freezer:D

(Seriously, though, it is possible!)
We just need to be able to keep certain medical specimens and foods from going bad... A type of supermarket.. and a place where we can sell ice for individaul ice boxes...

We'll also need carts or wagons capable of supporting the blocs and a animal work team able to do that at a consistant ratte before optimal business can be set up for that.

I'm hoping we are bringing a bunch of the small iteams used for these various jobs that aren't needed immeadiately but will be needed in order to help us grow and substain that growth...

[Othniel]

Ok, but in fifty years I am going to be a 93 year old Librarian!:D

Actually, the Technical Books I plan on bringing will make a lot of difference, they cover from 1880s to 1950s tech on most things. At least we will not have to completly reinvent the wheel!:D
And I'll be entering my seventies...:eek: But it is what must be done if we are to get this on the right track of sending more than just ripples through time...but lasting to see new eras and make our desendants sucessful. Along with the short term we need to focus on medium turn, and the direction we intend to shove this new civilization towards..

I have decided to focus on things that will be needed not immeadiately but for substance of our future, while putting my efforts towards suriving to see them implimented, or at least I hope.

[SionEwig]

Hey Norbert,

How much weight were you figureing each book from Lindseys would be, not the total weight for all but the individual item weight. I've gotten some from them (boy I could spend a fortune with them) and many are around 1/4 lb to 1/2 lb. Not that much weight. I was thinking that we might want to go with a 3rd set of the books that is specified to be packaged for long term storage and we don't break any of those out unless the other copies have been destroyed/worn out.

[Norbert]

Ice Tongs that open to 24" are 4 lbs
Hand Ice Saw 24"; 26"; 28"; 30" figure 3 lbs each
Mount Diablo gets snow during the winter, I do not know if it has a Ice cap, if it does, it may be difficult to get to.

[SionEwig]

Ice Tongs that open to 24" are 4 lbs
Hand Ice Saw 24"; 26"; 28"; 30" figure 3 lbs each
Mount Diablo gets snow during the winter, I do not know if it has a Ice cap, if it does, it may be difficult to get to.

I will check my info on it tomorrow. We will need to be going there sooner or later, it is where most of the useful mineral deposits in the area are.

[Norbert]

Hey Norbert,

How much weight were you figureing each book from Lindseys would be, not the total weight for all but the individual item weight. I've gotten some from them (boy I could spend a fortune with them) and many are around 1/4 lb to 1/2 lb. Not that much weight. I was thinking that we might want to go with a 3rd set of the books that is specified to be packaged for long term storage and we don't break any of those out unless the other copies have been destroyed/worn out.

I figured out the total pages of all the books in the catalog, based my weight on 500 sheets of paper (4.95 lbs), and then figured 80% to take into account some are smaller books and some are hardcovers. So in the end, One Copy of each book came to 516 lbs. Very little, especially when spread out amoungst everyone! Some of the more detailed books are 400 pages+.

Actually, the catalog I used listed 65,146 pages of books!

[Norbert]

I will check my info on it tomorrow. We will need to be going there sooner or later, it is where most of the useful mineral deposits in the area are.

I should see if I can get some info or pictures from my cousin, I just remembered shes out that way, and the specialize in old photo reproductions into prints. I just remembered because my knowledge of Mount Diablo is based on some pictures, one of which showed a group of settlers trapped by a blizzard there...

[jolo]

Yes but those 100 iliterate Colonist from Europe had a skill that was needed ,
When was the last time you made shoes , made a set of colthing , made a hut to live in plowed a field , Made soap , Delivered a baby , made string , weaved a rug . Or done any of the many things that you have to do with out 21 st centry convenceise . Rember those of us that have done any of these things are in are 50's except for Norbert but he was a youngest kid and his parents are only 4 years younger than my mother.

When was the last time you did not have a TV to watch . Besides summer camp . Instead of coming up with all these great plains why don't you and your people have some of old timers show you a few things . Like how to can food, plow a field , build a hut to live in .

Though I am of a slightly younger generation than you, I am in the "lucky" position to have been shown most of those things. Which is exactly why I want to get past that stage asap. I really don't like all of us having to work 16h a day just to survive, with few possibilities to improve our situation. If people like their work and want to spend lots of time with it, that's OK. If people do it to finance any dreams, that's also OK. But if other people are forced to work more than needed to produce what they want or need, that's not OK imo. Some people want to have some time for art, hobbies, recreation, and so on. Others would rather invest some time in automatisation and let tools do their work, even if it's the same productivity. Everyone should decide that for him- or herself.

[jolo]

Ok, you've built a gas engine. What are you going to run it on?
Vegetable Oil? How many soybeans will you need to produce to run it for one hour? How many people is it going to take to collect the beans, then process the beans, to run it one hour? 4? 5?

Ok, I've built a steam tractor. What am I going to run it on?
Wood? 5 minutes of collecting or less and I run it a couple of hours.
How many people is it going to take to keep it running one hour? 1!

You will be tying up more of your resources higher tech than lower tech.

By the way, how about the bearings? What are you going to use?
What am I going to use for bearings? I know what I am going to use, and its most likely a lot more efficient to use what I am planning than yours.

The type of bearings I plan on using are so simple, and worked so well, that the only reason they are not used much anymore is that it became easier to use steel bearings.

As we're supposing our area to be full of trees, wood is very cheap. But as vegetable oil today is not more expensive than wood with similar heating value, I suppose that will change quickly.

Another source for oil is animal fat. Once we have set up the most important parts of our settlements, only some of us will still need 3000 calories a day. Fat will therefore be available for other uses.

And if my gas driven tractor manages twice as much work as a steam driven tractor, but uses twice as many people, that's the same. But in the first few weeks or months, it'll use the same amount of people for twice the results.

I do admit that steam power may be more efficient for a few years. But it will also be less safe, less reliable, and less mobile. Which is why I prefer both technologies to be in use.

As to your bearings: I don't know what kind of bearings you mean, or which problem you are referring to. But if you talk about wooden lumber mills and other wooden machines, a bacon rind between bearings and axles will be enough to keep them runnning.

[jolo]

Perhaps poor wording on my part, but you were talking about stone working facilities and equipment and that stuff weighs lots, especially the moving equipment. Now I would love to have a D7 Cat, but it's just not feasable for us.


I was thinking along the lines of some kind of crane with a shovel to lift the rubble onto carts, and mobile tools to break the stones. Water can be used to break stones in cold nights - but that will probably be something for the next winter. Some kind of mobile shovel would be really useful, though.


Actually I was using numbers from Mountain House freeze dried foods, who know what they are doing. You may get some better numbers, but you will be much shorter on the necessary protien and nutrients that can be supplied using this methods. I challenge you to come up with realistic numbers that are detailed showing a significantly lighter weight for a years diet providing 3000 cal/day that is balanced. And this doesn't even take into account the long term storage ability of this method.


I don't think we'll need balanced nutrition. We are not going to the arctic. We can get vitamins from the wild plants and proteins from the animals and some plants.


Right, good one, find me the company.


I must admit 100 lbs was too little - fat appears to have the best nutritional calorie per gram value. At 9 calories per gram, one needs 333 grams per day, or 120 kg per year for 3000 calories/day. That's about 270 lbs for a year. As we can't stomach eating so much fat, 500 lbs is more realistic for a healthy mix of grains, flours, fat, sugars, alcohol (7 calories/gram), and so on. If we say we can for sure supplement a third of the calories with hunting, gathering, and fishing, we still need about 333 lbs of such concentrated food per person.


They are nice for a suppliment, after all if you are out doing something else and come across some of the stuff, you might as well pick it up, no argument there. But you miss the point - most survival foods ARE simply a method of slow starvation.


Slowing starvation is enough to reach the time of the harvest. Also, they are good to add vitamins, minerals, and so on to our diet of concentrated foods.


Point there :) , but it will still take a good bit of work and labor to turn it into any kind of really usable fortification. Knowing similar apartment types, it just really isn't a fort. Maybe someone could ask Ian to take a picture of his building and post it for us to give a better idea.


I'll suppose it's a standard building made of enforced concrete and lots of glass. The glass will partly be needed elsewhere (one window per room should be enough). The windows in the two lower levels will be replaced with wood and later masonry, the windows in the top two floors (I assume four floors) will partly be replaced with wood. The building will be the best place for a little emergency station, for a watch tower, for sheltering guards, for a laboratory, for some more delicate machines, and so on. A later palisade around the building will help protect it against surprise attacks.


I'm going to stick with my estimate of getting ALL of what you had there done correctly will be a couple of years. It will simply take time to do stuff, cause it will probably not work on the first attempt, probably not on the second attempt. That doesn't mean that you won't be turning out some kind of product earlier, just that it will be a while before you get it optimized.


I suppose I can agree with you on that - the first production will be rather improvised, third world like. Only over the years will we be able to build professional manufacturing capabilities.


Yes, you do need a good amount of ore, and by that I mean ore that is high grade. You obviously have absolutely how much rock needs to be moved to get usable ore. It can be a good amount. So no, a few rocks will not produce enough to make a small tool, unless you get lucky and find relatively pure ore. And no, you generally do not just throw the rocks into a hot enough oven, that generally only woks with what is referred to as 'native' metals. You also need to reduce the stuff to smaller pieces so that more metal can be extracted. All of this takes a heck of a lot of labor, unless you are in the exact right places, and the early mining is very labor intensive. Yes, we do have several people how can identify the different minerals and ores, six of them in my family and several others that have at least a bit of knowledge. Even more once some is found and what it looks like in the field can be demonstrated (you really don't want to depend on the guide books for that, their pictures are of specimens that have been cleaned up and are generally excellent examples. Yes trial and error will still be one of our main methods, but it will take time.


I didn't say it would be easy. I suppose a small quarry will keep 20 people busy, including transport, but not including processing of the materials. Processing parts of the limestone into other materials might need 3 to 5 more people, and only once demand is sufficient.

If we can't find easy to process metals, we'll have to go the complicated way. I suppose about 20 people would be busy going to an "ore quarry", getting the needed ore, processing it, and starting anew. It'll take some time for that. But after the second planting season, there should be some time for that. Also, we'll probably have enough broken parts and hopefully some easier to process metals to use before that, so it can even be done later.


You found a styalized map with the principal mineral producing localities for California from 1990 - 2000. Nice enough, but it is barely useful and leaves more out that even someone who isn't in the geology/mining industry should be able to figure out what is wrong with it. And I never said that we couldn't operate a quarry, I asked what you would do with the limestone once you quarried it. Not to mention (once again) you are talking something that is exceptionally labor intensive, which is a resource that we will not have a lot of for a while.


If you have a better map, please post it. Could be useful.

Also, I suppose the best way to set the people free for such tasks is to make sure they return more than they cost. Limestone is needed to produce glass, paper, and a few other things. Once we need these materials to increase our productivity (paper for schooling, glass for indoor jobs...), it'll pay off to set aside a few people for the task. As of the upcoming weeks, I'd just do some scouting of the ressources, return some examples, experiment with processing them, and see how much the proceeds are needed to determine the number of people specializing in this. I suppose a single chemist would be sufficient to process quite a few different materials for whoever needs them in small quantities.


Nope, none that I have been able to find in any kind of form that we can use or access any time soon as easily as we can taking some wagons down to the deposits I have mentioned before north of Death Valley N.M.


Good luck on the trip - I'd say second planting season for that, too, which might be in 6 or 7 months already. If we aren't low on explosives then, maybe later.


Happily yes, we have some folks who know how to make stuff go boom and enjoy it. But this is still going to be something that we are going to need to be extremely cautious with, especially whn using it in mining applications. We will soon run out of reliable fuses and detonators.


Unreliable detonating methods are usually OK if one doesn't make the mistake to look what's wrong too early - worked for centuries.


No, but considering your past history of doing so, it is understandable why people would think that you were. I do think that we cn pull most if not all of these things off, just not soon, certainly not until food production is more assured and that is going to take months.


I believe it's difficult to make city slickers do hard manual labour the whole day - it makes more sense to let them do some other stuff on the side, too. Otherwise, we'll only have lots of people who can't work at all anymore thanks to lots of blisters, bruises, and exhaustion. Which is another reason why I prefer a more diverse approach.

[jolo]

Jolo this is about as nice as you'll get. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoovervilles)

This is the state we are in right now. I suppose it can only get better. Using machinery and modern technology is the only possibility to lift our standard of living to more than just food production all day.

[Norbert]

Bearings are important to keep things like your crank shaft from wearing. I do not mean what you will lubricate them with. Yes, you could render animal fat, it will take a lot to run on, and it also will have the problem of solidifying on you and clogging the works.

Freezing? There are only 3-5 days of frost in that area! You will have to han drill and wedge to cut rock. I know the basic theory, and I admit I've never done it (there were 0 rock formations in my area growing up!).

Listen to Sion on the exlosives. He knows them, he is a mining engineer. If he says they are not worth risking, I trust his opinion. Early explosives people using unreliable explosives very often got injured, maimed or killed. There were very few old explosives men, and they often had trembling hands in the end because the work was so stressful.

I do not know why people think explosives are so useful or necessary to build something like a dam. I can do it with picks, shovels and wheelbarrows. Many of the hydro plants in the US are earth dams cored with rubble. The important thing is to have sufficient tile (pipe) to keep the water from over flowing and eroding the dam works. I've done this with clay tile, metal culvert, and even 55 gallon metal drums. Those dams still exist with no maintenance after 20-30 years.

I know how to build earth bridges using the same things for letting the water through. All the ones we have built are in the same condition as the dams, and could support a 4-5 ton vehicle going over them, and later when the woods were thinned last, trucks with full loads of logs.


Yes, the whole process is slow, but at the moment we are dealing with a day at a time. Later, when infrastructure builds up, we may be running several days in one real day. Give it time. But, until the exploration phase, the shake down phase, and so on are done, it will seem slow.

[jolo]

Bearings are important to keep things like your crank shaft from wearing. I do not mean what you will lubricate them with. Yes, you could render animal fat, it will take a lot to run on, and it also will have the problem of solidifying on you and clogging the works.

Freezing? There are only 3-5 days of frost in that area! You will have to han drill and wedge to cut rock. I know the basic theory, and I admit I've never done it (there were 0 rock formations in my area growing up!).

Listen to Sion on the exlosives. He knows them, he is a mining engineer. If he says they are not worth risking, I trust his opinion. Early explosives people using unreliable explosives very often got injured, maimed or killed. There were very few old explosives men, and they often had trembling hands in the end because the work was so stressful.

I do not know why people think explosives are so useful or necessary to build something like a dam. I can do it with picks, shovels and wheelbarrows. Many of the hydro plants in the US are earth dams cored with rubble. The important thing is to have sufficient tile (pipe) to keep the water from over flowing and eroding the dam works. I've done this with clay tile, metal culvert, and even 55 gallon metal drums. Those dams still exist with no maintenance after 20-30 years.

I know how to build earth bridges using the same things for letting the water through. All the ones we have built are in the same condition as the dams, and could support a 4-5 ton vehicle going over them, and later when the woods were thinned last, trucks with full loads of logs.


Yes, the whole process is slow, but at the moment we are dealing with a day at a time. Later, when infrastructure builds up, we may be running several days in one real day. Give it time. But, until the exploration phase, the shake down phase, and so on are done, it will seem slow.

I suppose we'll figure out sth. for bearings, especially with you on the team... :)

I suppose further up there'll be a few more cold nights. For the little amounts we need, it'll be sufficient.

With the explosives, we unluckily don't have too much choice for a long time - we can only be careful. Some things can only be done with them, as we have nearly no heavy tools.

With the dam, you can help me if you like. I want a few fish ponds, some irrigation, and some electricity. I intended to blow up a part of a hill to get a dam. But that's only possible in the hills. In our area and above the fishing camp dams would be more useful. Though they shouldn't be close to settlements, to avoid having too many mosquitos.

We may be dealing with a day at a time - but we're also dealing with 3000 people, of which many have their own ideas what to do best. I believe the best thing is to let them, even if some fail, because the few who are successful will be worth it. I believe it's also realistic that all those people would be doing quite a few different things. I'm not talking about me doing all myself.

[SionEwig]

Bearings are important to keep things like your crank shaft from wearing. I do not mean what you will lubricate them with. Yes, you could render animal fat, it will take a lot to run on, and it also will have the problem of solidifying on you and clogging the works.

Freezing? There are only 3-5 days of frost in that area! You will have to han drill and wedge to cut rock. I know the basic theory, and I admit I've never done it (there were 0 rock formations in my area growing up!).

It is easy enough to do, with the right tools. And we can do it, just labor intensive. To help with the splitting of the stone, especially for building purposes what we will do is use wood dowels inserted into the had drilled holes and then soaked with water so they expand and split the stone, very common method.

Listen to Sion on the exlosives. He knows them, he is a mining engineer. If he says they are not worth risking, I trust his opinion. Early explosives people using unreliable explosives very often got injured, maimed or killed. There were very few old explosives men, and they often had trembling hands in the end because the work was so stressful.

Thank you Norbert. I do think that us making explosives will be of use and necessary, but I am going to be an old maid when it comes to being cautious about using them, especially when our modern fuses and detonators run out. I've used the majority of the types of explosives in use today, even the relatively crude nitrates and diesel fuel for removing stumps, but always with modern detonation systems. That is going to be my main concern.

I do not know why people think explosives are so useful or necessary to build something like a dam. I can do it with picks, shovels and wheelbarrows. Many of the hydro plants in the US are earth dams cored with rubble. The important thing is to have sufficient tile (pipe) to keep the water from over flowing and eroding the dam works. I've done this with clay tile, metal culvert, and even 55 gallon metal drums. Those dams still exist with no maintenance after 20-30 years.

I know how to build earth bridges using the same things for letting the water through. All the ones we have built are in the same condition as the dams, and could support a 4-5 ton vehicle going over them, and later when the woods were thinned last, trucks with full loads of logs.

No argument from me here, the less powder we use the better, and mining will end up being the primary area we will need it for, not construction.


Yes, the whole process is slow, but at the moment we are dealing with a day at a time. Later, when infrastructure builds up, we may be running several days in one real day. Give it time. But, until the exploration phase, the shake down phase, and so on are done, it will seem slow.[/quote]

[Norbert]

Ok, how many members are going to make the trek? I am working on some things for the overall community, and would really like to know.

[Norbert]

It has been suggested that each member dedicate to the overall community 1 ton of equipment. I've been working out some of this, and suggest that the breakdown of this ton be 500 lbs for the Greater Community (Everyone) and 1500 lbs for Sub Communities. We are going to have to break up somewhat to be able to work efficiently, something like the Manor System, where each manor and its households worked the area around it for crops, herds, and so on. It would releave the strain of heading 1500 people into fields to work, some having to go quite far to reach the area they are working.

The 500 lbs could go for items for the Rangers, Medical personel, and Teachers, with some devoted towards specialized equipment beneficial to everyone, such as a saw mill for lumber, hydro generators to run woodworking equipment for furniture making, maybe materials to build smelting equipment to produce raw metals, machine tools to make machinery, perhaps a small printing press and an initial supply of paper, and books for educating the children.

The 1500 lbs could go for items to make living conditions for the sub-community healthier, and pooling resources for the first few years for cooking and food storage, cloth to make or repair cloths until we can produce more, and specialized items that can be used to have tools and/or equipment for specialized jobs.

Thoughts on this?

[Glen]

Gotta run..holidays...

First, a lot of this commentary should be moved to the chat thread. This is making it hard for coucil members to leaf through here and see what is being requested.

The manor system sounds possible. Run it past Ward.

The amount that should be dedicated to 'community' needs is an individual choice in the end, though a ton sounds reasonable given that leaves 500 pounds still.

However, I will remind everyone that that materiel will still be credited to the name of the one assigning its use to the community.

[Matt]

You're all gonna hate me for this:

But I'm thinking about more modern firearms again. Of a different caliber then the standard .30-06. There's 3 reasons for this:

1- A modern assault rifle is generally lighter then the Lee-Enfield.
2- The round, 6.8mm SPC is lighter then the relatively heavier .30-06 round.
3- Although I would delete a full-auto or 3 round burst opition from the weapon, it would pack more firepower.

Now I know this seems slightly... well insane, but I've been obsessing with other groups like our own out there. Less beneviolent groups. The Lee-Enfield rifles can stay in the private arsenals of members, and the .30-06 stock can be dedicated to militia/utility work. Thus the Rangers would not commsume that valuable stock. At the same time, since the 6.8mm round is lighter, we can take more for this purpose. The same deal can apply to the rifle, the G36. Extra rifles can be taken to provide a cache of spare parts.

This is me just thinking, but after all this type of stuff is what I get "paid" to do.

[Norbert]

You're all gonna hate me for this:

But I'm thinking about more modern firearms again. Of a different caliber then the standard .30-06. There's 3 reasons for this:

1- A modern assault rifle is generally lighter then the Lee-Enfield.
2- The round, 6.8mm SPC is lighter then the relatively heavier .30-06 round.
3- Although I would delete a full-auto or 3 round burst opition from the weapon, it would pack more firepower.

Now I know this seems slightly... well insane, but I've been obsessing with other groups like our own out there. Less beneviolent groups. The Lee-Enfield rifles can stay in the private arsenals of members, and the .30-06 stock can be dedicated to militia/utility work. Thus the Rangers would not commsume that valuable stock. At the same time, since the 6.8mm round is lighter, we can take more for this purpose. The same deal can apply to the rifle, the G36. Extra rifles can be taken to provide a cache of spare parts.

This is me just thinking, but after all this type of stuff is what I get "paid" to do.

First, before I voice an opinion, How much does it weigh, how much does the ammunition weigh, and can you get dies for reloading.

[Ward]

You're all gonna hate me for this:

But I'm thinking about more modern firearms again. Of a different caliber then the standard .30-06. There's 3 reasons for this:

1- A modern assault rifle is generally lighter then the Lee-Enfield.
2- The round, 6.8mm SPC is lighter then the relatively heavier .30-06 round.
3- Although I would delete a full-auto or 3 round burst opition from the weapon, it would pack more firepower.

Now I know this seems slightly... well insane, but I've been obsessing with other groups like our own out there. Less beneviolent groups. The Lee-Enfield rifles can stay in the private arsenals of members, and the .30-06 stock can be dedicated to militia/utility work. Thus the Rangers would not commsume that valuable stock. At the same time, since the 6.8mm round is lighter, we can take more for this purpose. The same deal can apply to the rifle, the G36. Extra rifles can be taken to provide a cache of spare parts.

This is me just thinking, but after all this type of stuff is what I get "paid" to do.


No if you need a auto weapon take 12 x Thompson SMG They fire the .45 cal,

[Matt]

First, before I voice an opinion, How much does it weigh, how much does the ammunition weigh, and can you get dies for reloading.

3.7kg for a G36 vs 4.2kg for a Lee-Enfield. I'm looking for ammo weights, but it should be solidly right between 5.56 and 7.62.

And yes you can get dies. Otherwise I wouldnt have even considered it.

edit 117 vs 215 grain

[Norbert]

3.7kg for a G36 vs 4.2kg for a Lee-Enfield. I'm looking for ammo weights, but it should be solidly right between 5.56 and 7.62.

And yes you can get dies. Otherwise I wouldnt have even considered it.

Ok, 3.7kg=8 lb 2.5oz. Dies, ok. I'll think it over.

[Matt]

No if you need a auto weapon take 12 x Thompson SMG They fire the .45 cal,


Thompson weighs damn near 5 kilos, and has the traditional draw backs of a submachine gun. Taking the HKs also eliminates the needs for the BARs.

[Ward]

Thompson weighs damn near 5 kilos, and has the traditional draw backs of a submachine gun. Taking the HKs also eliminates the needs for the BARs.


well I'm taking the Bar anyway .

[SionEwig]

You're all gonna hate me for this:

You got that right:D

But I'm thinking about more modern firearms again. Of a different caliber then the standard .30-06. There's 3 reasons for this:

1- A modern assault rifle is generally lighter then the Lee-Enfield.
2- The round, 6.8mm SPC is lighter then the relatively heavier .30-06 round.
3- Although I would delete a full-auto or 3 round burst opition from the weapon, it would pack more firepower.

Now I know this seems slightly... well insane, but I've been obsessing with other groups like our own out there. Less beneviolent groups. The Lee-Enfield rifles can stay in the private arsenals of members, and the .30-06 stock can be dedicated to militia/utility work. Thus the Rangers would not commsume that valuable stock. At the same time, since the 6.8mm round is lighter, we can take more for this purpose. The same deal can apply to the rifle, the G36. Extra rifles can be taken to provide a cache of spare parts.

This is me just thinking, but after all this type of stuff is what I get "paid" to do.

NO NO NO NO NO and NO Damnit.

Lots of us went with the 30-06 for at least one weapon so as to try and do that little thing we were calling standardization of caliber.

For another thing, even though the 6.8 is interesting, it has not been proven in any kind of real tests yet, and I don't mean those on ranges. I mean combat situtations.

The 30-06 round has proven itself in combat through 2 world wars, and multiple insurrections and police actions. Not to mention that the rifle that was settled on proved itself throughout the same 2 world wars and other actions. And we know that the blasted rifles will last cause they are still going strong almost 100 years later. Not to mention that you want a rifle that was made with bayonet work in mind and is robust as hell, try butt stroking someone with one of these modern toys and you will have a broken rifle. With the SMLE someones gonna have a shattered jaw.

[Ward]

You got that right:D



NO NO NO NO NO and NO Damnit.

Lots of us went with the 30-06 for at least one weapon so as to try and do that little thing we were calling standardization of caliber.

For another thing, even though the 6.8 is interesting, it has not been proven in any kind of real tests yet, and I don't mean those on ranges. I mean combat situtations.

The 30-06 round has proven itself in combat through 2 world wars, and multiple insurrections and police actions. Not to mention that the rifle that was settled on proved itself throughout the same 2 world wars and other actions. And we know that the blasted rifles will last cause they are still going strong almost 100 years later. Not to mention that you want a rifle that was made with bayonet work in mind and is robust as hell, try butt stroking someone with one of these modern toys and you will have a broken rifle. With the SMLE someones gonna have a shattered jaw.



I agree with you on that . Plus it will take out a bear if you need to .

[SionEwig]

Thompson weighs damn near 5 kilos, and has the traditional draw backs of a submachine gun. Taking the HKs also eliminates the needs for the BARs.

HKs also have a nasty tendancy to rip the back off the shell casing on extraction. Doesn't make them jam, but you lose the brass. Also, the modern assault rifles will be very finiky when we reload with black powder, while our good old bolt actions will keep on going.

[Matt]

Lots of us went with the 30-06 for at least one weapon so as to try and do that little thing we were calling standardization of caliber.

For another thing, even though the 6.8 is interesting, it has not been proven in any kind of real tests yet, and I don't mean those on ranges. I mean combat situtations.



Its so blasted heavy. Mostly the round. Should have went with 7.62 NATO imho, but now I'm trying to come up with a solution. I have alot of time at work dammit.

[Norbert]

You got that right:D



NO NO NO NO NO and NO Damnit.

Lots of us went with the 30-06 for at least one weapon so as to try and do that little thing we were calling standardization of caliber.

For another thing, even though the 6.8 is interesting, it has not been proven in any kind of real tests yet, and I don't mean those on ranges. I mean combat situtations.

The 30-06 round has proven itself in combat through 2 world wars, and multiple insurrections and police actions. Not to mention that the rifle that was settled on proved itself throughout the same 2 world wars and other actions. And we know that the blasted rifles will last cause they are still going strong almost 100 years later. Not to mention that you want a rifle that was made with bayonet work in mind and is robust as hell, try butt stroking someone with one of these modern toys and you will have a broken rifle. With the SMLE someones gonna have a shattered jaw.


SOLD! I will take Sions argument. I wanted to think on it, but was just getting around to the points he just made in my mind. I vote No.

(Kids and their new toys...)

[Matt]

(Kids and their new toys...)

Two different generations of shooters. Hardly anyone left in the Corp that had any service rifle but the 16; definatly noone that's used a .30-06 service rifle. My 'plastic' rifle did just fine, when properly cleaned that is. HKs are suppose to be alot less fincky then it. Never heard of about the ripping the back of the brass off is the extraction cycle though. That would be a probelm.

I'm just concerned about the amount of rounds we can take for the .30-06. It's so blasted heavy, and since we're taking extra rifles anyway why not one that lighter and takes a lighter round as well? I dunno, idle thinking brings alot of thoughts up.

[Norbert]

BTW, on another matter, could we interest someone on the possibility of Wood Working (ie small scale, cabinet/furiniture) Equipment? I have been studying water courses shown in the area and small scale hydroplants, and I figured in enough equipment on community items to set up two plants and parts to keep them running for at least 40-50 years. Could also get some small scale metal working equipment for the future when we start to have refined metal to work with.

[Norbert]

Two different generations of shooters. Hardly anyone left in the Corp that had any service rifle but the 16; definatly noone that's used a .30-06 service rifle. My 'plastic' rifle did just fine, when properly cleaned that is. HKs are suppose to be alot less fincky then it. Never heard of about the ripping the back of the brass off is the extraction cycle though. That would be a probelm.

I'm just concerned about the amount of rounds we can take for the .30-06. It's so blasted heavy, and since we're taking extra rifles anyway why not one that lighter and takes a lighter round as well? I dunno, idle thinking brings alot of thoughts up.

Of course, they never mention that you have to run a NiMH battery to Zero to get those thousand charges out of them! (they start to loose there charge memory, and stop rechrgig to full capacity)

[Ward]

Two different generations of shooters. Hardly anyone left in the Corp that had any service rifle but the 16; definatly noone that's used a .30-06 service rifle. My 'plastic' rifle did just fine, when properly cleaned that is. HKs are suppose to be alot less fincky then it. Never heard of about the ripping the back of the brass off is the extraction cycle though. That would be a probelm.

I'm just concerned about the amount of rounds we can take for the .30-06. It's so blasted heavy, and since we're taking extra rifles anyway why not one that lighter and takes a lighter round as well? I dunno, idle thinking brings alot of thoughts up.


you could take the weapon my father had made for my brother and myself it was a full auto 16 gauge shotgun .

[SionEwig]

BTW, on another matter, could we interest someone on the possibility of Wood Working (ie small scale, cabinet/furiniture) Equipment? I have been studying water courses shown in the area and small scale hydroplants, and I figured in enough equipment on community items to set up two plants and parts to keep them running for at least 40-50 years. Could also get some small scale metal working equipment for the future when we start to have refined metal to work with.

Wood working of the type you mention is one of my wife's big hobbies, brought some of the tools and equipment.

[Norbert]

Wood working of the type you mention is one of my wife's big hobbies, brought some of the tools and equipment.

:cool: Well, we will have power of either 120 VAC or 240 VAC from the water generators. Though before that goes up, I can provide you with 2,450 Watts 120 VAC from Solar (and later, wind). Which reminds me, I still need to figure our wire. We do have weight for it.

Oh, I wouldn't recommend anyone cutting or drilling Green Hardwood. Burned out a couple of Craftsman drills drilling green oak, and burned out a couple of Craftsamn Jigsaws on Green Maple. But its pretty easy toolwise to do the aforementioned with hand power saws and augers....

[Ward]

Its so blasted heavy. Mostly the round. Should have went with 7.62 NATO imho, but now I'm trying to come up with a solution. I have alot of time at work dammit.


How often in a fire fight have you used more than 120 rounds . Unles you are Rocking and Rolling . :eek:

[Matt]

How often in a fire fight have you used more than 120 rounds . Unles you are Rocking and Rolling . :eek:


Use more then 90 rounds and you're having a hellvua day... :D

I'm not so much concerned about carrying, as I am about bringing.

[SionEwig]

Two different generations of shooters. Hardly anyone left in the Corp that had any service rifle but the 16; definatly noone that's used a .30-06 service rifle. My 'plastic' rifle did just fine, when properly cleaned that is. HKs are suppose to be alot less fincky then it. Never heard of about the ripping the back of the brass off is the extraction cycle though. That would be a probelm.

I'm just concerned about the amount of rounds we can take for the .30-06. It's so blasted heavy, and since we're taking extra rifles anyway why not one that lighter and takes a lighter round as well? I dunno, idle thinking brings alot of thoughts up.

Yes, the 16 works just fine if taken care of, even the A1s from when I was in. But remember, that is with relatively clean burning modern powder, not the black powder we will be making. Big difference.

And yes, I know how heavy the rounds are, but they also have a much greater effective range and greater knockdown power.

[Ward]

Think of takeing the M-1 Rifle for the Rangers . It will fire under almost any conduction . If need be when it is so cold you can fire it just piss on it and you can fire it , Try that with your M=16 toy . P.S. I always hate that rifle it had something to do with getting one with Gee it Swell its made by Mattel .:eek:

[Norbert]

Use more then 90 rounds and you're having a hellvua day... :D

I'm not so much concerned about carrying, as I am about bringing.

At the moment, I have 15,000 rds .30-06 for you, from 38 people. I've been working on a more comprehensive list for one 'sub-community'. Also got you 2 base station radios, 6 manpacks, and 30 Hand Helds. Plus 20 Hand Generators, extra batteries, and extra antennas. Also got you 18 sets of Chaps, 60 sets of Saddle Bags, and 60 Rifle Scabbards.

[Matt]

Okay for real then:

Rangers need uniforms, packs, possibly body armor. SAPI plates. Load bearing equipment. First aid kits. Small 2 man tents. Sandbags. Radios, and comm wire for Field Telephones. Batteries. Bayonetts, and multi-tools. Sabres, Roman Short Swords and shields. And we need extra sets. We also needs thousands of rounds of .30-06 and .45 caliber ammo. I would like to have 25 BARs, with 7 mags per weapons and 25 Thompson submachine guns, also with 7 mags. This well provide extras for spare parts and maintance. .22 cal rounds are needed for training, both for the militia and Rangers. Heavy weapons for settlement defence. Cannons and such are heavy, but we can make reloads earlier. Something like a RPG can provide the same role as a cannon, but reloads well be tricky for a while. Heavy machine guns, but they use alot of ammo. So maybe a Gatling type that can use black powder. Saddles and suitable mounts are needed, preferably Walers or a similar breed.

[Ward]

Okay for real then:

Rangers need uniforms, packs, possibly body armor. SAPI plates. Load bearing equipment. First aid kits. Small 2 man tents. Sandbags. Radios, and comm wire for Field Telephones. Batteries. Bayonetts, and multi-tools. Sabres, Roman Short Swords and shields. And we need extra sets. We also needs thousands of rounds of .30-06 and .45 caliber ammo. I would like to have 25 BARs, with 7 mags per weapons and 25 Thompson submachine guns, also with 7 mags. This well provide extras for spare parts and maintance. .22 cal rounds are needed for training, both for the militia and Rangers. Heavy weapons for settlement defence. Cannons and such are heavy, but we can make reloads earlier. Something like a RPG can provide the same role as a cannon, but reloads well be tricky for a while. Heavy machine guns, but they use alot of ammo. So maybe a Gatling type that can use black powder. Saddles and suitable mounts are needed, preferably Walers or a similar breed.


Then have your Rangers Bring there own Equpment and you can bring 2 tons of .30-06 Ammo and 6 BARS . And Have each member of the Rangers bring 1,500 lbs of .30-06 and 500lbs of .45 cal ammo . That will help out or have them bring reloads and powder .

[Norbert]

Okay for real then:

Rangers need uniforms, packs, possibly body armor. SAPI plates. Load bearing equipment. First aid kits. Small 2 man tents. Sandbags. Radios, and comm wire for Field Telephones. Batteries. Bayonetts, and multi-tools. Sabres, Roman Short Swords and shields. And we need extra sets. We also needs thousands of rounds of .30-06 and .45 caliber ammo. I would like to have 25 BARs, with 7 mags per weapons and 25 Thompson submachine guns, also with 7 mags. This well provide extras for spare parts and maintance. .22 cal rounds are needed for training, both for the militia and Rangers. Heavy weapons for settlement defence. Cannons and such are heavy, but we can make reloads earlier. Something like a RPG can provide the same role as a cannon, but reloads well be tricky for a while. Heavy machine guns, but they use alot of ammo. So maybe a Gatling type that can use black powder. Saddles and suitable mounts are needed, preferably Walers or a similar breed.

We picked up a field phone switchboard (WWII German) that can handle 48 lines (99 lbs). Figured each sub-community could have at least one field phone (9lbs) to communicate with the others, as well as each council member having a set for emergencies. Each coil of 328 feet (100 m)of wire is 4.5 lbs.

Cannons probably don't need a better range than 1,800 yards, try the 3 lbr Galloper. 600 lbs, Crew 4. (Napoleon 12 lbr: 1,800 yards, 2,600 lbs, Crew 6).

.58 cal Gatling: 2,100 yards, 379 lbs,
37mm Hotchkiss: 2,100 yards, 400 lbs
Nordenfeldt .45 cal: 2,100 yards, 300 lbs

[Matt]

We picked up a field phone switchboard (WWII German) that can handle 48 lines (99 lbs). Figured each sub-community could have at least one field phone (9lbs) to communicate with the others, as well as each council member having a set for emergencies. Each coil of 328 feet (100 m)of wire is 4.5 lbs.

Cannons probably don't need a better range than 1,800 yards, try the 3 lbr Galloper. 600 lbs, Crew 4. (Napoleon 12 lbr: 1,800 yards, 2,600 lbs, Crew 6).

.58 cal Gatling: 2,100 yards, 379 lbs,
37mm Hotchkiss: 2,100 yards, 400 lbs
Nordenfeldt .45 cal: 2,100 yards, 300 lbs


The Gats should be able to take .30-06. What was being used around the time of the SpanAm War?

The Hotchkiss sounds nice. Breach loading I assume correct?

[Norbert]

The Gats should be able to take .30-06. What was being used around the time of the SpanAm War?

The Hotchkiss sounds nice. Breach loading I assume correct?

I suppose we could ask the ASBs for aones converted to .30-06. Hotchkiss was a Gatling type weapon designed for ship defence. 100 round Magazine. Designed for Anti-Torpedo boats, stated to be well made and lasting for many years. 10,000 were sold to the French Navy alone. Originally made in 1874. Also, more reliable than the Gatling.

[Matt]

I suppose we could ask the ASBs for aones converted to .30-06. Hotchkiss was a Gatling type weapon designed for ship defence.


A hand cranked 37mm Gatling!!! Jesus Christ. I don't think we need that. Unless we need to fight some light armor <g>

[Norbert]

Speaking of idle time:

Individual Home Lighting System
Item Number; Weight Each; Total Weight
55 Watt Flexible Solar Panel 12; 3.7; 44.4
Vision CL 600AH SLA 1; 92.5; 92.5
6 circuit Marine Rated Fuse Box 2; 4; 8
Fuses (up to 100 Amp) 100; 0.125; 12.5
PT 12/24-60 60 Amp Charge Controller 2; 8; 16
TriMetric Battery System Monitor 2; 0.3; 0.6
12VDC/30A DPDT Relay 20; 0.25; 5
Thin Light 312 DC Light Fixture 16; 1; 16
Thin Light 160I18 Hv Duty Porch Light 2; 2; 4
12VDC 15 Watt Tube Ballast 24; 2; 48
13 Watt Compact Flourescent Bulb 96; 0.5; 48
6 Gauge Copper Wire (3 Strands)(12.58 Feet) 20; 3; 60(251.6feet)

Total 355 lbs

Doable for Individual Homes, no matter where they are.

For remote homes:
5.8 cu ft DC Refrigerator: 110 lbs
8 cu ft DC Refrigerator: 130 lbs
5.8 cu ft DC Freezer: 110 lbs
8 cu ft DC Freezer: 130 lbs

System should have the capacity for all the lighting. To add a freezer and refrigerator all night, you should add a second battery, or go with the 220 lb Vision CL 1500AH SLA.
The Flourescent bulbs are rated a life cycle of 10,000 hours (416+ days) and provide about 870 lumens, the same as your 60 watt incadescen bulbs.
(Note: SLA: Sealed Lead Acid Battery, practically indefinite life cycle. AH= Amp Hours.)

BTW, San Francisco seems to be a good choice area for solar power,averaging 5.45 kWh/m^2/day. Low solar is December, at an average of 3.35 kWh/m^2/day, based on models using data from 1966 to present.

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/

[Psychomeltdown]

Okay what Items are needed for the Community, to make life easier and al that. Upon further thinking on it, i think we should just limit these Items to things that the Gov't will be responsible for once things get settled.

the only thing I can think of are:

1. Water - need pumps, 3000 people
2. Defense - weapons
3. Communication - between towns/for defense also.
4. Roads - to towns, etc.
5. Public health/sanitation -
6. Public records - deals/contracts/births/deaths, etc
7. Libraries/schools
8. Public Works - building things needed for community
9. Public Safety/Fire - Police/fire department
10. Foreign relations - with locals


What else would be under Gov't control. Mainly this is to determine how much material/weight is needed to hand over to the gov't when the resupply comes.

[SionEwig]

Good thoughts Psycho. Made me think of something that should definately be on the list for Community needs, and that is lots of blank paper. Possibly some of the old 1930s manual typewriters. I've got a couple that still work well.

[Highlander]

Paper is a must. Legal size too. Could I maybe get some paper and a typewriter?

[Ward]

Paper is a must. Legal size too. Could I maybe get some paper and a typewriter?


Just figure it in your weight .

[Norbert]

Okay what Items are needed for the Community, to make life easier and al that. Upon further thinking on it, i think we should just limit these Items to things that the Gov't will be responsible for once things get settled.

the only thing I can think of are:

1. Water - need pumps, 3000 people
2. Defense - weapons
3. Communication - between towns/for defense also.
4. Roads - to towns, etc.
5. Public health/sanitation -
6. Public records - deals/contracts/births/deaths, etc
7. Libraries/schools
8. Public Works - building things needed for community
9. Public Safety/Fire - Police/fire department
10. Foreign relations - with locals


What else would be under Gov't control. Mainly this is to determine how much material/weight is needed to hand over to the gov't when the resupply comes.

1. Water pumps are listed in reference lists, could be a combination of wind, hand, and solar powered.
2.Add ammunition for Defense.
3.Communication can be in two forms. First is buried phone line serving a field phone network. Second is Radios with hand generator backup.
4.Roads. For the time being, we can use dirt paths. Later they can be built in the Roman Style.
5.Sanitation. Possibilities are Community Bath Houses, and Public Latrines. These can both be done with a mininum of weight, and the Latrines could even be made to have flush toilets and a septic system, increasing the level of sanitation.
6.Records. Paper, Journal Notebooks, Pens and Pencils. For the pens we use the old fashioned fountain 'balloon' pen, and ink can be gotten in blocks and mixed at site.
7.Libraries/Schools. Technical Liabraries, Text Books, and a collection of literature books.
8. Hmmmmm. Need to think on what you mean here.
9.Public Safety. Horse/Man drawn man powered fire engine/tank/pump weighs 350 lbs.
10.Foreign Relations: Journals to record dealings, language, and so on. Trade goods of value to the natives (needles, buttons, colored threads, etc).

Except for #8, Everything you mention is on a 'community' list I am working on. #8 could possibly refer to building actual buildings for meatings, and so on, in which case it would amount to tools etc. for building them. If so, that is on my list, also. I am just waiting to post it later, as I am still 'tweaking' parts of it.:D

[Ward]

Good thoughts Psycho. Made me think of something that should definately be on the list for Community needs, and that is lots of blank paper. Possibly some of the old 1930s manual typewriters. I've got a couple that still work well.


Why use 1930 type How about some Royal Bussnise Typewriters from the 60's they were still being made . I have one at home that I bought used From a school in the 1980's

[Highlander]

OOC: Do you know of anywhere that still sells typewriters? I want one, as I like them better than printing text from the puter.

[Ward]

Check on the web for them . Or go to estate sales .

[Psychomeltdown]

1. Water pumps are listed in reference lists, could be a combination of wind, hand, and solar powered.
2.Add ammunition for Defense.
3.Communication can be in two forms. First is buried phone line serving a field phone network. Second is Radios with hand generator backup.
4.Roads. For the time being, we can use dirt paths. Later they can be built in the Roman Style.
5.Sanitation. Possibilities are Community Bath Houses, and Public Latrines. These can both be done with a mininum of weight, and the Latrines could even be made to have flush toilets and a septic system, increasing the level of sanitation.
6.Records. Paper, Journal Notebooks, Pens and Pencils. For the pens we use the old fashioned fountain 'balloon' pen, and ink can be gotten in blocks and mixed at site.
7.Libraries/Schools. Technical Liabraries, Text Books, and a collection of literature books.
8. Hmmmmm. Need to think on what you mean here.
9.Public Safety. Horse/Man drawn man powered fire engine/tank/pump weighs 350 lbs.
10.Foreign Relations: Journals to record dealings, language, and so on. Trade goods of value to the natives (needles, buttons, colored threads, etc).
1. - figure we could use wind powered waterpumps, though how is the wind in SFB? mild, none? Figure this could only be wells and the like, I don't think we'll have enough pipe/weight to pipe water into every home/building.

2. Ammo, guns, military equipment (tents, tools, etc)

3. Radios would be good, but I don't think they'll last long. Afterall it'll be years before we can begin producing even vacuum tubes. Maybe we can make telegraphs. We'll need a lot of insulated copper wire...

4. Even plain graveled roads, afterall some of our towns will be a bit scattered, like the fishing towns or even other farming villages. I guess this depends more on the availability of local quarries to make the gravel.

5. the Bathhouse could be nice, though I think we'll be stuck with building out own shithouses for the long time being.

6. A lot of paper and ink. ledgers, filing cabinets, desks, etc.

7. With 1400 kids we'll be needing schools soon, unless they're gonna be working. I would hope at least a copy of the books we've brought be donated to the library, where we know it won't be lost/destroyed.

8. Public buildings and the like, making dams, waterways, etc. Things that will benefit everyone and needs a lot of labor, Is it possible to have a required time given over to Community Service, just like the militia training?

9. We'll probably need at least two or three of these, if the towns spread out. Then we'll need a jail house, with Ghost in charge.

10. Figure this doesn't need much manpower beyond Doc What and Leo...

[Norbert]

1. - figure we could use wind powered waterpumps, though how is the wind in SFB? mild, none? Figure this could only be wells and the like, I don't think we'll have enough pipe/weight to pipe water into every home/building.

I agree, not every building. I think a central kitchen with water is a good short term solution, and the bath houses. Wind is stated as an average of 4.7 mph, higher up (40 foot) it is a little more. Pipe, Tanks for Water Towers (for pressure), and pipe can be done fairly light with some of the newer materials.

2. Ammo, guns, military equipment (tents, tools, etc)

3. Radios would be good, but I don't think they'll last long. Afterall it'll be years before we can begin producing even vacuum tubes. Maybe we can make telegraphs. We'll need a lot of insulated copper wire...

Some field phones from WWII are still usable, and the wire is not to heavy (even underground line). It is light enoough that about a mile of wire is only 72 lbs, and the field phones are 9 lbs. Switchboard (WWII German) has a capability of 48 lines in (28 more than US model).

4. Even plain graveled roads, afterall some of our towns will be a bit scattered, like the fishing towns or even other farming villages. I guess this depends more on the availability of local quarries to make the gravel.

At first the Dirt should be sufficient. Gravel and so on can be done later. I lived on a Dirt road that was in existence for 100 years before it was paved. It worked.


5. the Bathhouse could be nice, though I think we'll be stuck with building out own shithouses for the long time being.

A septic system, Pipe and Drain field I will have to find my notes on. Weight spread over several people is reasonable though.

6. A lot of paper and ink. ledgers, filing cabinets, desks, etc.

7. With 1400 kids we'll be needing schools soon, unless they're gonna be working. I would hope at least a copy of the books we've brought be donated to the library, where we know it won't be lost/destroyed.

Yes, paper and ink will be important until we can do more than very limited paper production. A possibilty for documents that need to last a long time is to use Vellum (Sheep Skin). Books I think we will need a lot to make it through. Duplicate copies in seperate areas will be important for the preservation of knowledge.

8. Public buildings and the like, making dams, waterways, etc. Things that will benefit everyone and needs a lot of labor, Is it possible to have a required time given over to Community Service, just like the militia training?

Required Community Service may be possible at first, maybe necessary, but only for the short term.

9. We'll probably need at least two or three of these, if the towns spread out. Then we'll need a jail house, with Ghost in charge.

Yes, it may be necessary, and I fervently hope we do not need to use them again! As to the fire engine, I think one per community. The design is from Roman times, and should be relativly simple to reproduce as the possibility of more are needed. Also supplies for Ghost to think of are a few pairs of handcuffs.

10. Figure this doesn't need much manpower beyond Doc What and Leo...

Just materials and supplies like I mentioned before.

Other things we can have: Solar Power. The Bay Area gets quite a bit of Sunlight, according to data collected for the past 50 years. A system of Solar Panels, and other power producing equipment as well as lights and refrigeration are possible, with Wind Power backup and Storage Batteries for low power output periods. It is a hybrid system, and will work. Solar power, Storage battery, lighting, wire, etc. for home units would weigh 355 lbs as I designed it, with enough lights ,if stored where they do not get broken, to last years. Also, the solar power system can be used to power a pump that mounts on a hand pump.

[Norbert]

Here are my thoughts on equipment and Items for each Sub-Community. I was basing it on each member volunteering to give up 1 ton of their resupply (574 tons). I further broke this down to 1500 lbs would go for community infrastructure, and 500 lbs for everyone overall.

I have been thinking that we break down into 15 smaller groups. This works out to 11 groups with 38 members, and 4 groups with 39 members. At the end of the document is a division based on 38 and 39.

BTW, 500 lbs per member works out to 143.5 tons. This would be for items that we do not need many of, like for instance a lumber mill (It would be nice to have more than 1, but 1 we can get away with).

[Psychomeltdown]

Why are some of the pages blank?

otherwise, very detailed list...



among other things, i should think that if there's any lumber mills/grain mills, they shouldn't be added to the community property. Since later on they'll probably fall into the realm of private ownership and not gov't control.


yeah, i know. I stated before that these things should be in the hands of the gov't, but further thinking on it it seems best to make it so that those that want to run a mill have to do it from their own weight.

[Norbert]

Why are some of the pages blank?

otherwise, very detailed list....

Probably because it might have run two pages wide, and I did not notice.



among other things, i should think that if there's any lumber mills/grain mills, they shouldn't be added to the community property. Since later on they'll probably fall into the realm of private ownership and not gov't control.


yeah, i know. I stated before that these things should be in the hands of the gov't, but further thinking on it it seems best to make it so that those that want to run a mill have to do it from their own weight.

Problem with the lumber mill is the set-up I looked at that could handle what we need is 9000 lbs. Divided amoung several people in a smaller group, or everyone contributes to it, kind of like owninig shares of stock in a company (whice, is actually what it would end up as). Everyone is going to need lumber, and everyone is going to need flour and ground grains. Later, if I wanted to trade my share of the grain mill with someone for a their share of the lumber mill, I could. Just because we all contributed towards them, does not mean we can't trade our portion of what we have.

[Ghost 88]

[quote=Psychomeltdown]

9. We'll probably need at least two or three of these, if the towns spread out. Then we'll need a jail house, with Ghost in charge.
Hey I imitate Joe Arpio just give em a tent.

[Psychomeltdown]

Hey I imitate Joe Arpio just give em a tent.
With pink suits and green bologna? :D

[Ghost 88]

With pink suits and green bologna? :D
Yes,I'm also wasting resources going after 65 year old hookers and thier 70 year old "johns".And yes I have a vacancy sign too.

[Psychomeltdown]

Problem with the lumber mill is the set-up I looked at that could handle what we need is 9000 lbs. Divided amoung several people in a smaller group, or everyone contributes to it, kind of like owninig shares of stock in a company (whice, is actually what it would end up as). Everyone is going to need lumber, and everyone is going to need flour and ground grains. Later, if I wanted to trade my share of the grain mill with someone for a their share of the lumber mill, I could. Just because we all contributed towards them, does not mean we can't trade our portion of what we have.
that's pretty much what I was thinking, if people want to band together and start up a business, then they can using the weight they were alloted to bring stuff they need.

How much would a grain mill weight?

[Highlander]

This may seem a bit extreme, but could we maybe get cannons, for defensive purposes.

[Matt]

Highlander, I'm already working on it. Each Ranger well contribute additional weight as their communial property. Several 1.65 inch Hotchkiss guns well come that way(total weight- including carrage, 362 lbs)

[Psychomeltdown]

This may seem a bit extreme, but could we maybe get cannons, for defensive purposes.
I don't think we need cannons. One reason is they're too heavy and another is who will we be fighting? there's only 5000+ natives in the area and they're stone age level.

Plus we all have a bunch of guns and if Mbarry's planning, a few heavy weapons. but canons would be overkill.

[Highlander]

That's what I thought. What heavy weapons are they working on?

[Psychomeltdown]

Highlander, I'm already working on it. Each Ranger well contribute additional weight as their communial property. Several 1.65 inch Hotchkiss guns well come that way(total weight- including carrage, 362 lbs)
Planning on going to war, Matt? :D

[Matt]

I don't think we need cannons. One reason is they're too heavy and another is who will we be fighting? there's only 5000+ natives in the area and they're stone age level.

Plus we all have a bunch of guns and if Mbarry's planning, a few heavy weapons. but canons would be overkill.


Overkill is the name of the game :)

On a serious note, some sort of fortification should/well be built at the new site, and having 3 of those guns for each corner would be nice.

[Psychomeltdown]

Overkill is the name of the game :)

On a serious note, some sort of fortification should/well be built at the new site, and having 3 of those guns for each corner would be nice.
Those old west forts were always nice.

We can call it the generic name of Fort Apache. :)

[Matt]

Those old west forts were always nice.

We can call it the generic name of Fort Apache. :)


I was thinking of Fort Repose, in reference to my favorite novel.

[SionEwig]

Overkill is the name of the game :)

On a serious note, some sort of fortification should/well be built at the new site, and having 3 of those guns for each corner would be nice.

Let us know what you want, and the engineers will give you a quote.:D

[Psychomeltdown]

Let us know what you want, and the engineers will give you a quote.:D
Then the contractors will try to screw you over. Afterall this is gov't work. :D

[SionEwig]

Here are my thoughts on equipment and Items for each Sub-Community. I was basing it on each member volunteering to give up 1 ton of their resupply (574 tons). I further broke this down to 1500 lbs would go for community infrastructure, and 500 lbs for everyone overall.

I have been thinking that we break down into 15 smaller groups. This works out to 11 groups with 38 members, and 4 groups with 39 members. At the end of the document is a division based on 38 and 39.

BTW, 500 lbs per member works out to 143.5 tons. This would be for items that we do not need many of, like for instance a lumber mill (It would be nice to have more than 1, but 1 we can get away with).


Damn well detailed Norbert. Fantastic job.

One question - This is the stuff for EACH sub-settlement (manor), correct?

This is not the stuff for the COMMUNITY as a whole, right?

Also, you might think about a couple of the groups having some options. Especially say removing some of the agricultural stuff and replacing it with boat building equipment.

[SionEwig]

Then the contractors will try to screw you over. Afterall this is gov't work. :D

Yes, I know, I have bid on government contracts before :D :D :D ;)

[Gerard-ABC]

Ok, here are few ideas for defences for the new place - could combine the best of each.

Olde English hilltop fortifications
Roman forts
English stone castles
Wild West cavalry forts
SF camps from Vietnam

I agree that defence IS important, but we don't need to overdo it at the expense of food production.

Also, we can't do a fence for miles and miles around all the villages, fields, grazing land, etc. Maybe a fenced in area for each village though, or just for the main buildings ?

One of our main, if not the most important, building materials, is wood. We know that wood burns easily, whether by accident from a campfire, oven, flaming arrow, or hot coals / oil landing on it. Same problem, if not worse, for a straw roof.

I'd suspect that stone would make nice castle walls, but we don't have the people to make them. Or the attitude. ( which is good )


Regards,
Gerard

[Psychomeltdown]

Again, all we need is wooden walls surrounding warehouses and possibly the main Gov't buildings. Afterall we're fighting no one, the only people about are the Native Americans who are at stone age level, and possibly the Would Be Conquistadors who are all probably dead by now.

[Gerard-ABC]

Ok... for keeping animals in place - would we use barbed wire - which is a lot of weight / effort / injuries, or .... use plants with spines, like blackberries ?

As it's just Sophie and I, we'll not need as much food as family with kids, so we'll be able to include more items for the community.

We'll take the "standard" resupply items that were listed earlier, plus the following for community / group use:


5000 sheets of A4 ( or legal ) paper
plough, blacksmith tools ( not the anvil / forge )
100 lb of onion seeds / bulbs / cuttings / plants / whatever
50 lb carrots
100 lb potatoes
50 lb raspberries
100 lb peas

Any left over weight can be for more construction tools / equipment.
I'll let others use it up for the community as required, and as it fills up gaps that we forget later <g>


Regards,
Gerard

[Matt]

I'm envisioning a wooden pallisade, backed up with earthen berms and entrenchments, shaped in a triangle with the guns mounted at each corner. Inside a granary, well, barracks, parade ground, etc can be constructed.

[SionEwig]

I'm envisioning a wooden pallisade, backed up with earthen berms and entrenchments, shaped in a triangle with the guns mounted at each corner. Inside a granary, well, barracks, parade ground, etc can be constructed.

Triangle bad idea. 4 or more sides, 5 to 8 works well. The problem with a triangle is that the corners are not supporting of each other. If it doesn't have to be done immediately, then rammed earth for much of the construction is great.

[Norbert]

Damn well detailed Norbert. Fantastic job.

One question - This is the stuff for EACH sub-settlement (manor), correct?

This is not the stuff for the COMMUNITY as a whole, right?

Also, you might think about a couple of the groups having some options. Especially say removing some of the agricultural stuff and replacing it with boat building equipment.

If someone wants to take charge of a particular specialized group, they should be able to, and modify the list to reflect the choices they make. I won't take any offence, and if someone would like me to help figure what they need out, I can do that also.

[Norbert]

Ok, here are few ideas for defences for the new place - could combine the best of each.

Olde English hilltop fortifications
Roman forts
English stone castles
Wild West cavalry forts
SF camps from Vietnam

I agree that defence IS important, but we don't need to overdo it at the expense of food production.

Also, we can't do a fence for miles and miles around all the villages, fields, grazing land, etc. Maybe a fenced in area for each village though, or just for the main buildings ?

One of our main, if not the most important, building materials, is wood. We know that wood burns easily, whether by accident from a campfire, oven, flaming arrow, or hot coals / oil landing on it. Same problem, if not worse, for a straw roof.

I'd suspect that stone would make nice castle walls, but we don't have the people to make them. Or the attitude. ( which is good )


Regards,
Gerard

Wild West Fort is possible, and no straw roofs. I plan at worst wood shingles/shakes at first. I figure the average community at 191 men, women and children, using the stats elsewhere.

[Ghost 88]

Wild West Fort is possible, and no straw roofs. I plan at worst wood shingles/shakes at first. I figure the average community at 191 men, women and children, using the stats elsewhere.
Frontier Blockhouses are another possibility.

[Norbert]

Triangle bad idea. 4 or more sides, 5 to 8 works well. The problem with a triangle is that the corners are not supporting of each other. If it doesn't have to be done immediately, then rammed earth for much of the construction is great.

Rammed Earth would be best. 5 to 8 sides I can figure a rough generic layout. MB, we are not all in the Rangers, Parade grounds can be the community green, or an area outside the fort.

[Matt]

Rammed Earth would be best. 5 to 8 sides I can figure a rough generic layout. MB, we are not all in the Rangers, Parade grounds can be the community green, or an area outside the fort.

Well it's a generic green, but in times of no crisis the inside of the fort would be used primarily as a base of operation for the Rangers.

[Psychomeltdown]

Well it's a generic green, but in times of no crisis the inside of the fort would be used primarily as a base of operation for the Rangers.
What about the local populace???


They be left to be ravaged by the Invaders. ;)

[Norbert]

Well it's a generic green, but in times of no crisis the inside of the fort would be used primarily as a base of operation for the Rangers.

I'm figuring 15 communities to take advantage of the land and resources. Which reminds me, a transient barracks/house(s) would be useful if someone is working nearer one of the other communities and it would take to long to go to and from their work everyday.

[Matt]

I'm figuring 15 communities to take advantage of the land and resources. Which reminds me, a transient barracks/house(s) would be useful if someone is working nearer one of the other communities and it would take to long to go to and from their work everyday.


15 communities is too large for my force to garrison, and attend to it's other duties. We could have the local militia's construct smaller forts for local strongpoints, and the main community well house Fort Repose.

[Ghost 88]

Sheriffs Office needs 5 sets of restraints like you see in movies /tv were prisoners are being transported. 4 dozen Handcuffs,this many because of wear and tear,I don't see making replacements as high on the to do list. The concil might want to debate this but 4-5 sets of hasps,hinges ,and locks for making stocks if punishment is to include public humiliation,don't think this falls under cruel and unusual.It would be maybe a good deterance in a small community like ours.This is not one of my "wet dream" suggestion but an idea only. 2 arms lockers for securing the offices weapons when they are not being used. Most other needs can be made later from wood.

[Norbert]

15 communities is too large for my force to garrison, and attend to it's other duties. We could have the local militia's construct smaller forts for local strongpoints, and the main community well house Fort Repose.

Right now, the garrisons could be primarily at the communities nearer the hills. Maybe 4 of the communities. Patrols could travel from post to post on the outer edges of the 'circle' of communities, checking in and looking for signs of trouble. BTW, when on patrol, do not go out at a set schedule all the time. Variety keeps you alive.

I also figure that each community and the main Ranger base could be connected by Radio or field phone network (buried lines). There could be up to three field phones at each community, with three circuts free from the switchboard I planned. I am also gathering info on a radio system from an ex-USMC radio operator (SSgt). He spent 10-12 years figuring this kind of thing out.

[Norbert]

Sheriffs Office needs 5 sets of restraints like you see in movies /tv were prisoners are being transported. 4 dozen Handcuffs,this many because of wear and tear,I don't see making replacements as high on the to do list. The concil might want to debate this but 4-5 sets of hasps,hinges ,and locks for making stocks if punishment is to include public humiliation,don't think this falls under cruel and unusual.It would be maybe a good deterance in a small community like ours.This is not one of my "wet dream" suggestion but an idea only. 2 arms lockers for securing the offices weapons when they are not being used. Most other needs can be made later from wood.

I am for it. In the long run, temporary humiliation is a better deterrent than locking someone up, at least for minor offences. You do your time in the stock, when your time is up, your punishment is over. I would draw the line at flogging, but I think you would too.

[Matt]

Right now, the garrisons could be primarily at the communities nearer the hills. Maybe 4 of the communities. Patrols could travel from post to post on the outer edges of the 'circle' of communities, checking in and looking for signs of trouble. BTW, when on patrol, do not go out at a set schedule all the time. Variety keeps you alive.

I also figure that each community and the main Ranger base could be connected by Radio or field phone network (buried lines). There could be up to three field phones at each community, with three circuts free from the switchboard I planned. I am also gathering info on a radio system from an ex-USMC radio operator (SSgt). He spent 10-12 years figuring this kind of thing out.


That was the plan actually ;)

1 platoon garrisons Ft Repose, on 'rest'

1 platoon patrols between communites

1 platoon protects supply lines and convoys

Rotate platoons. And viola!

[Ghost 88]

I am for it. In the long run, temporary humiliation is a better deterrent than locking someone up, at least for minor offences. You do your time in the stock, when your time is up, your punishment is over. I would draw the line at flogging, but I think you would too.
No flogging is cruel.Public humiliation is a maybe it will work thing it is an unfortunate thing in our times that too many especialy the young in some cultures or sub groups of cultures see going to jail a sucess. Hopefuly we can deter this particular trait from being aceptable.

[Norbert]

No flogging is cruel.Public humiliation is a maybe it will work thing it is an unfortunate thing in our times that too many especialy the young in some cultures or sub groups of cultures see going to jail a sucess. Hopefuly we can deter this particular trait from being aceptable.

Hard Labor????

[Matt]

info on the Hotchkiss gun:

http://www.spanamwar.com/hotchkis165.htm

[Norbert]

info on the Hotchkiss gun:

http://www.spanamwar.com/hotchkis165.htm

Interesting. I think it is a good choice.

[Ghost 88]

Hard Labor????
To be really effective it might run foal of SCOTUS rulings on cruel and unusual.I myself believe that they went overboard in some cases. But my oppion is not law. We could as a community nulify some of the rulings but that could be a very slippery slope.I do draw the line at dangerous labor,unless they voluenteer and are rewarded with extra priviledges,time off sentence. Of course I'm a libservitive to me Micheal Moore and Ann Coulter are evil.

[Norbert]

To be really effective it might run foal of SCOTUS rulings on cruel and unusual.I myself believe that they went overboard in some cases. But my oppion is not law. We could as a community nulify some of the rulings but that could be a very slippery slope.I do draw the line at dangerous labor,unless they voluenteer and are rewarded with extra priviledges,time off sentence. Of course I'm a libservitive to me Micheal Moore and Ann Coulter are evil.

:eek: :eek: :eek: Defaming two perfect examples of Horses rear ends:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Ghost 88]

info on the Hotchkiss gun:

http://www.spanamwar.com/hotchkis165.htm
Bear in mind any breachloader has the same poblems as our rifle and pistols reloads. I agree this is an effective light weight gun but it still loads shells that may not be that easy to reload. In the long run a lighter weight muzzle loader maybe the better choice.

[Ward]

How about we have them clean the outhouses with a spoon:eek:

[Ghost 88]

How about we have them clean the outhouses with a spoon:eek:
Will you supervise I sure won't.:D

[Ward]

Will you supervise I sure won't.:D


Yes I will if I have to its no worst then cleaning the Calf barn .:eek:

[Ghost 88]

Yes I will if I have to its no worst then cleaning the Calf barn .:eek:
Ok we have another form of punishment.OBW I steer clear of barns and pig styes when ever I can.

[SionEwig]

Bear in mind any breachloader has the same poblems as our rifle and pistols reloads. I agree this is an effective light weight gun but it still loads shells that may not be that easy to reload. In the long run a lighter weight muzzle loader maybe the better choice.

It looks like that should be little problem, if I was reading correctly. It said that the early cases were fired by a friction primer in the back of the breech housing, and that the guns were converted to centerfire. No reason that we couldn't do the reverse if necessary. The only thing I don't like about it is that it didn't/doesn't use a timed shrapnel shell. That does limit it's effectiveness.

However, combined with the M-79s it should work fine.

[SionEwig]

If someone wants to take charge of a particular specialized group, they should be able to, and modify the list to reflect the choices they make. I won't take any offence, and if someone would like me to help figure what they need out, I can do that also.

OK, but that doesn't answer the question. The stuff on the list is for the sub-settlements, and each of them would have it (as modified by any particular local desires).

Have you done up a list of the COMMUNITY (as a whole) stuff?

[Norbert]

OK, but that doesn't answer the question. The stuff on the list is for the sub-settlements, and each of them would have it (as modified by any particular local desires).

Have you done up a list of the COMMUNITY (as a whole) stuff?

Nay, just some ideas on some stuff. At 500 lbs per member, 287,000 lbs is a lot to work out. I will take suggestions.

[bdziec]

Any comment/ideas on if this would be better the a m79??????


http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl14-e.htm

[Norbert]

Any comment/ideas on if this would be better the a m79??????


http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl14-e.htm

First: Heavy. Second: More Moving parts to have problems with. Third: to tempting to use more shots than you need. Fourth: Ward was an expert with the M79, and can easily train others in its use.

[Highlander]

Just a suggestion: Can we maybe get a couple of stronger weapons for the police force? Maybe a Thompson rifle, with some extra drums . . .

[Norbert]

Just a suggestion: Can we maybe get a couple of stronger weapons for the police force? Maybe a Thompson rifle, with some extra drums . . .

Are you expecting a Riot?

[Highlander]

No, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

[Norbert]

No, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

I'd go with a pump shotgun. It is as effective a deterent to be looking down the barrel as a Thompson is. Anyway, automatic weapons go through way to much ammo. Single shot is better. 'If you can't hit what you are shooting with one shot, don't bother firing!' to quote my DI.

[Highlander]

I'll leave it up to Ghost.

[SionEwig]

Just a suggestion: Can we maybe get a couple of stronger weapons for the police force? Maybe a Thompson rifle, with some extra drums . . .

Well, Matt was thinking about some M-1928 Thompson SMGs for the Rangers.

[Norbert]

Well, Matt was thinking about some M-1928 Thompson SMGs for the Rangers.

I thought he got talked out of it? My main concern with automatic weapons is they use to much ammunition. Ammunition that every round is precious because we can not make it. Precious because what we have is what we brought with us (so to speak).

[Ward]

That is why I'm going to bring som BAR's they use the same Ammo as the Rifles do . Plus they have a longer range .

Also For a riot I have a few CS rounds for the M-79 .

Also they can be use on the natives if the attack .Its not meant to kill but it sure will make them sick .

[Ghost 88]

I'll leave it up to Ghost.
If we get to the point where I as Sheriff deem we need more fire power than we have I will be sending you running and screaming to the Rangers.

[Matt]

I made a partial list of goodies for the Rangers while at drill today... some things have weights included...

equipment for Rangers:

Individual Weapons

M97 Trench Gun- 8.8 lbs
M1917 Bayonet- 1.5 lbs
Lee-Enfield SMLE Mk. 4- 9.19 lbs
Lee-Enfield SMLE Mk. 5 Jungle Carbine- 7.19 lbs
M1 Garand Rifle- 9.6 lbs
M1A1 Thompson Submachine Gun- 10.6 lbs
Colt M1911A1- 2.5 lbs


Individual Equipment

Interceptor Vest(with SAPI plates)- 24 lbs
Improved Light Weight Kevlar Helmet- 3 lbs
Improved Load Bearing Equipment, Main Pack-
Improved Load Bearing Equipment, Patrol Pack-
Camelback, Olive Drab-
Pistol Belt-
Glove Shells-
Glove Inserts-
Parka, Goretex-
Trousers, Goretex-
Canteen, Plastic-
Canteen Stand
Canteen Cup-
Sleeping Bag system-
2 man Tent
Coat, Field
Watch Cap
H-Harness
Case, First Aid
Poncho
Poncho Liner
E-Tool
E-Tool Carrier
Iso-Mat
Cot
Undershirt, C/W
Drawers, C/W
Light wieght Fleece
Heavy Duty Sweater, Wool
BDU Blouse, Olive(10)
BDU Trousers, Olive(10)
Boots, H/W
Boots, Temperate Weather
Cover, 8 point, Olive
Cover, Field
Rank Insigna-
Leg Gaitors-
Goggles-
Socks, Brown-
Tee-Shirt, Green-
Cavalry Saddle-

Heavy and Crew Served Weapons

Browning Automatic Rifle- 19 lbs
1.65 inch Hotchkiss gun- 362 lbs
M1919A6 Machine Gun- 34 lbs
3 inch Hotchkiss mountain gun- 570 lbs

Ammo and Magazines

1000 rounds of cal .30-06- 60 lbs
1000 rounds of cal .45-
5000 rounds of cal .22-
200 rounds of 12 gauge(brass)-
Common shell, 1.65 inch- 2.62 lbs
Cannister shot, 1.65 inch- 3.47 lbs
3 inch round- 14 lbs
Magazine, BAR-
Magazine, Thompson-
Clips, M1 Garand-

Communication

Radios

Rations

MRE Pallet(48 cases)- 1100 lbs
Water Filters

Misc

Barb wire(roll)
Sand bags(1000)-
Name tape machine-
Blank name tape roll
Sewing Kit
Barber kit

[Ward]

I do not like the Idea of the Rangers having the M1919A6 Machine Gun- 34 lbs . At all why do they need this weapon .
I think the only reason for this type of weapon is to put down the members of the board .

[Highlander]

I think it's a good idea.

[bdziec]

I do not like the Idea of the Rangers having the M1919A6 Machine Gun- 34 lbs . At all why do they need this weapon .
I think the only reason for this type of weapon is to put down the members of the board .


I would concur Also the vests are a bit much too

[Matt]

Let me clarify. The MGs are for the militia. They would be implaced facing out of the fortifications, and next to the Hotchkisses. The header says Rangers, but I'm doing thinking for both since I'm RPing WeaponM.

The Vest would provide protect against arrows and blade attacks, not just bullets.

[Norbert]

Unless there are a few 0331's around, they'd be useless. We are better off with the weapons we know and are using/carrying/caring for day to day. The only reason I did not object to Ward taking a M79 is I know he knows the weapon and is familiar with it, and has had extensive use with one.

[bdziec]

This might seem dated up what about good ol' sheilds in stead of the vests?? It sort of proven tech if u what i mean

[Matt]

Although I'm not an 0331, I recieved several weeks of in theater training on the use of crew served weapons. And manned them in combat as well.

[Highlander]

Kinda hard to shoot with a shield . . .

[Matt]

This might seem dated up what about good ol' sheilds in stead of the vests?? It sort of proven tech if u what i mean


We can make shields, using the massive amounts of lumber we well be clearing.

[Norbert]

Although I'm not an 0331, I recieved several weeks of in theater training on the use of crew served weapons. And manned them in combat as well.

Just think with lack of experience, they will eat up our available ammo. And we would not want to run reloaded ammo through them.

Now your idea of a Gatling recahmbered/barreled for .30-06 would be better, it wouldn't be quite as touchy with reloads, and if it is for a static position...

Anyway, if there is a large attack we have the following going for us: up to 100+ people with Rifles/shotguns/pistols, and a radio to call for relief. And that is the smaller community. Watch the movie 'Zulu'. All they had were breechloading rifles, and survived many times their number of attackers.

[Matt]

Just think with lack of experience, they will eat up our available ammo. And we would not want to run reloaded ammo through them.

Now your idea of a Gatling recahmbered/barreled for .30-06 would be better, it wouldn't be quite as touchy with reloads, and if it is for a static position...

Gatling would be fun( :) ) but it's heavier then even the Mountain Gun. We could use an earlier MG, maybe a potato digger. But an M1919 would be closer to relation of the Ma Deuce.

[Norbert]

Gatling would be fun( :) ) but it's heavier then even the Mountain Gun. We could use an earlier MG, maybe a potato digger. But an M1919 would be closer to relation of the Ma Deuce.

I know the 1919. It is a good weapon. Re-look at my post, I edited it.

[bdziec]

mr mbarry how about instead of 1.65 & 3 how about 1885 Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon

http://www.fieldsofthunder.com/artillery.htm

[bdziec]

How about a maxin,1917 or hotchkiss early models(1897,1906 1914 etc)???

[Norbert]

The 1885 is a larger version of the 37mm Hotchkiss I posted stats on earlier.

Personally, I think some of this automatic weapons stuff is asking for trouble. We really don't need them, unless every native man, woman and child and 6 of their friends attack.

[Ward]

Matt how about a 120 mm mortor instead you could build a fire base in th center of the area of the camps and fire rounds to help aii the small towns .

[bdziec]

think a 81 would work to thou ward will defer to u on that Also u hear tell of rumors of a supposed 3 rnd m79 when u where in "country"???

[Matt]

Okay. How about 2 of them, and they sit in a closet in case of a raining day. Or Nazi's riding dinosaurs.

[Ward]

Okay. How about 2 of them, and they sit in a closet in case of a raining day. Or Nazi's riding dinosaurs.


If we get Nazi's riding Dinosaurs I will eat my shorts .

[Matt]

Matt how about a 120 mm mortor instead you could build a fire base in th center of the area of the camps and fire rounds to help aii the small towns .


How much for the tube, the base plate, and ammo to train a crew? And who knows how to lay in a tube?

[Ward]

How much for the tube, the base plate, and ammo to train a crew? And who knows how to lay in a tube?


don't you .

[Norbert]

Okay. How about 2 of them, and they sit in a closet in case of a raining day. Or Nazi's riding dinosaurs.

Two 120mm Soltam K6 Mortars? Max Range 7200m, 317.5 lbs ready/firing position, uses the M48 and M57 series rounds.

M48 round HE 27.75 lb
M84 Smoke 27.75 lb
M57 HE 29 lb
M68 Smoke 29 lb
120mm Illuminating Bomb 26.5 lb Illuminating time 45sec, 1,250,000 cd mininum

[Matt]

Mortar man I ain't. We had everything in our T/OE up to the Mk19 and AT4, and learned to use em inside and out. Only rudementary training in laying a tube.

[Ghost 88]

Just think with lack of experience, they will eat up our available ammo. And we would not want to run reloaded ammo through them.

Now your idea of a Gatling recahmbered/barreled for .30-06 would be better, it wouldn't be quite as touchy with reloads, and if it is for a static position...

Anyway, if there is a large attack we have the following going for us: up to 100+ people with Rifles/shotguns/pistols, and a radio to call for relief. And that is the smaller community. Watch the movie 'Zulu'. All they had were breechloading rifles, and survived many times their number of attackers.
Inlighten this poor old Army grunt what spec.is 0331

[Matt]

Inlighten this poor old Army grunt what spec.is 0331


Grunt, Variety, Machinegunner

[Norbert]

Inlighten this poor old Army grunt what spec.is 0331

Machine Gunner

[bdziec]

Not the best idea as these are way to dangerous and are more trouble the there worth here but what about claymores or mines??

[Ward]

Not the best idea as these are way to dangerous and are more trouble the there worth here but what about claymores or mines??


They are more trouble then they are worth . I can build nasty traps out of wood and a little bit of shit . Rember the VC made traps out of wood .

[Norbert]

Not the best idea as these are way to dangerous and are more trouble the there worth here but what about claymores or mines??


Two Words for that: Little Children.

Same answer to Wards post.

[Ward]

Two Words for that: Little Children.


Change that to five little words Dead and injured little children :eek:

[Ghost 88]

Machine Gunner
Thank you.Scratches head. Hey I'm an0331:eek: Among others. Army only had Three Inf spec. 11C motarman,
11H antitank(think Tows) and 11B lt inf every thing else.I r a 11 bang bang. If your bringing a MG bring the M60 chambered to our rounds much less complicated and unlike the 1919 you actually can fire it from the hip.

[bdziec]

was expecting that for mines but surprised on the not even a maybe on the claymores.

Any way a flamer might be usefully??? not say to use on then directly but more pychological. know that if something spitin fire at me i run like hell

This a earthen/stone or wood deal??

[Ward]

I think we need to take more M-79's with 250 lbs of training rounds .
and take CS rounds , flares and HE. these have a large killing radius and the rounds are fairly light. and the Rangers would have a weapon that could stop most attacks .

[Norbert]

was expecting that for mines but surprised on the not even a maybe on the claymores.

Any way a flamer might be usefully??? not say to use on then directly but more pychological. know that if something spitin fire at me i run like hell

This a earthen/stone or wood deal??


We have to build the settlements yet, and the construction will be mostly wood. And a flamethrower runs into a problem. We don't have the fuel to charge it.

[Ghost 88]

We have to build the settlements yet, and the construction will be mostly wood. And a flamethrower runs into a problem. We don't have the fuel to charge it.
Flame throwers are heavy and are really messy. M79s also have a shotgun round Ward any experince with this round? Also I just remembered one of my reason for a muzzle loading cannon over a breach loader we can use rocks and stone in muzzle loaders.

[Matt]

Claymores can be easily improvised, a 1 inch piece of steel, powder and shot is all we need.

[Matt]

Claymores can be easily improvised, a 1 inch piece of steel, powder and shot is all we need.

[Ward]

Flame throwers are heavy and are really messy. M79s also have a shotgun round Ward any experince with this round? Also I just remembered one of my reason for a muzzle loading cannon over a breach loader we can use rocks and stone in muzzle loaders.

No I never used that round at all . If he was that close the entreanting tool was out and being swung .

[Ghost 88]

No I never used that round at all . If he was that close the entreanting tool was out and being swung .
Thought I'd ask all I ever got was mixed reviews. We had that abortion the M203 and the way that kicked with training rounds I wouldn't want to fire a 40mm shotgun round out of it.

[SionEwig]

How much for the tube, the base plate, and ammo to train a crew? And who knows how to lay in a tube?

Did it a couple of times, almost 20 years ago, do not feel competent. If mortars are decided on go with 60mm.

[Norbert]

Did it a couple of times, almost 20 years ago, do not feel competent. If mortars are decided on go with 60mm.

Would you want the best range and proven model?

[SionEwig]

Would you want the best range and proven model?

To be honest, I think that most mortars are the same. I only used the US model, cant even think what it was now, I have heard good things about the Canadian one. But like I said, I don't feel competent with one unless we had lots of rounds to practice with.

[Norbert]

To be honest, I think that most mortars are the same. I only used the US model, cant even think what it was now, I have heard good things about the Canadian one. But like I said, I don't feel competent with one unless we had lots of rounds to practice with.

ThomsonBrandt 60mm has a max range of 5000m (3.1 miles), and weighs 50.7 lbs. The rounds are listed in Janes at 2.2kg (4.85 lbs) with a TNT charge that they say gives it comparible efficiency to the 81mm Mortar bomb. It can also use HE (1.61kg/3.55 lb, max range 4000m) Long range illuminating (1.44kg/3.2 lb, 500,000 cd, 38 seconds). Smoke rounds should be the same as the HE in weight, all their other calibre Mortars seem to run that way. Figure the practice rounds the same, also.

[SionEwig]

I made a partial list of goodies for the Rangers while at drill today... some things have weights included...

equipment for Rangers:

Individual Weapons

M97 Trench Gun- 8.8 lbs
M1917 Bayonet- 1.5 lbs
Lee-Enfield SMLE Mk. 4- 9.19 lbs
Lee-Enfield SMLE Mk. 5 Jungle Carbine- 7.19 lbs
M1 Garand Rifle- 9.6 lbs
M1A1 Thompson Submachine Gun- 10.6 lbs
Colt M1911A1- 2.5 lbs


Trench Gun - good idea, but everyone doesn't need one

SMLE Mk4 No1 - not this one, sights are not as good as the Mk3

Go with the Mk.3 No.1 - this is the original SMLE and is better. Btter sights for one thing. Weight - 8.75 lbs (I just weight several in response to Norbert a couple of days ago and can't remember exactly what the weight was).

SMLE Mk5 Jungle Carbine - don't ever get this one, nice looking rifle and lighter but it has a bad tendancy to lose it's zero on a daily basis. Sight it one day and the next it's way off.

M1 Garand - love them, but I think you should keep the standard arm as a bolt action. If you still feel the overwhelming urge to go with semi auto, then go with the Johnson rifle of WW II time period.

Thompson M1928 (the same thing the marines called the M1) - same comments as for the Trench Gun

Colt M1911A1 - love them, but I think you would be better served by going with S&W US Model 1917 revolver. Same cal, but the advantages of a revolver in our situtation are greater. Weight - 2 lb 4 oz



Heavy and Crew Served Weapons

Browning Automatic Rifle- 19 lbs
1.65 inch Hotchkiss gun- 362 lbs
M1919A6 Machine Gun- 34 lbs
3 inch Hotchkiss mountain gun- 570 lbs

BAR - good enough for our purposes, but it did have some problems. Would still recommend some kind of support weapon, but don't forget that Norbert has them in the list of gear for sub-communities. Also, you might consider the FN BAR Type D, which is the FN modification of the US BAR. It is definately an improved version and if you can shoot one, the other will be no problem. Weight 20 lb 5 oz.

M1919A6 MG - Hell no dude. All they did was add a bipod and shoulder stock to the 1919A4s, just about every one who had one modified it back to the A4 format. I think that this is not that bad an idea for the communities tohave 1 or 2 each. If we need one, we will really need one. However, go with the M1919A4 instead, weight - 31 lb.



Ammo and Magazines

1000 rounds of cal .30-06- 60 lbs
1000 rounds of cal .45-
5000 rounds of cal .22-
200 rounds of 12 gauge(brass)-
Common shell, 1.65 inch- 2.62 lbs
Cannister shot, 1.65 inch- 3.47 lbs
3 inch round- 14 lbs
Magazine, BAR-
Magazine, Thompson-
Clips, M1 Garand-

If you decide on the Thompson, I strongly suggest that you go with the 50 rd drum magazines. If we ever need them, we will really need the firepower.

[SionEwig]

Flame throwers are heavy and are really messy. M79s also have a shotgun round Ward any experince with this round? Also I just remembered one of my reason for a muzzle loading cannon over a breach loader we can use rocks and stone in muzzle loaders.

Most of the people I know who ever used the M-79 shot round have said that it is only marginally better than a 12 GA 3" magnum 00 shell. And the difference in weight doesn't justify it.

[Ghost 88]

Most of the people I know who ever used the M-79 shot round have said that it is only marginally better than a 12 GA 3" magnum 00 shell. And the difference in weight doesn't justify it.
Works for me,but I disagree on the M1919 in my own experince the M60 is a much more versitile MG its lighter 23lbs IIRC and can be shot from the hip.I argue this if we have to have a MG this is a better wpn.Do note I said if Myself if I was choose wpns.other than muzzle loaders I'd go a step further back to the black powder breech loaders like the Lee Medford Or Sharps but I just the Sheriff and our Ranger Capitain wants sexier wpns.

[SionEwig]

Works for me,but I disagree on the M1919 in my own experince the M60 is a much more versitile MG its lighter 23lbs IIRC and can be shot from the hip.I argue this if we have to have a MG this is a better wpn.Do note I said if Myself if I was choose wpns.other than muzzle loaders I'd go a step further back to the black powder breech loaders like the Lee Medford Or Sharps but I just the Sheriff and our Ranger Capitain wants sexier wpns.

Yes, the M-60 is lighter, but it would need to be beefed up going from 308 to 30-06, which would probably get it almost up to the same weight. I will not argue the versitility, one reason I said the 1919A4 over the A6 is the intended role for it. Mostly a fixed place support weapon, not something for the support of combat patrols. Plus quite frankly, the 1919s are much more reliable and sturdy than the 60s. Remember, these things are still in use in numerous areas around the world.

On the other hand, something we mostly haven't been thinking about is that this stuff is ASB supplied. Why couldn't we ask for the proven very reliable designs except made with some of the better modern materials? We could still get great weapons and probably get the weight down from what the originals are.

While I won't argue much with you about using the older designed for black powder breechloaders, Matt is thinking along the lines of what else could be out there, how do we know that the ASBs don't have something nasty waiting. So I can understand and agree with his wanting to have some stuff for that just in case emergency.

[Ghost 88]

Yes, the M-60 is lighter, but it would need to be beefed up going from 308 to 30-06, which would probably get it almost up to the same weight. I will not argue the versitility, one reason I said the 1919A4 over the A6 is the intended role for it. Mostly a fixed place support weapon, not something for the support of combat patrols. Plus quite frankly, the 1919s are much more reliable and sturdy than the 60s. Remember, these things are still in use in numerous areas around the world.

On the other hand, something we mostly haven't been thinking about is that this stuff is ASB supplied. Why couldn't we ask for the proven very reliable designs except made with some of the better modern materials? We could still get great weapons and probably get the weight down from what the originals are.

While I won't argue much with you about using the older designed for black powder breechloaders, Matt is thinking along the lines of what else could be out there, how do we know that the ASBs don't have something nasty waiting. So I can understand and agree with his wanting to have some stuff for that just in case emergency.
I keep forgeting he is at least as paranoid as I am.How about beefing down to the .308,After all many nations think its a good military round and I mean allthe way down to 7.62X39? Of course I know and trust The M60 and was very very good with it when I last carried it.