Firearm Experence: ALT

[Matt]

What experence have you had with firearms? Specfically longarms(shotguns and rifles).

[jolo]

What experence have you had with firearms? Specfically longarms(shotguns and rifles).

Air rifle, nail gun with explosives cartridges, computer games... :(

[Othniel]

What experence have you had with firearms? Specfically longarms(shotguns and rifles).
M16-A2..Barely a marksman after the sixth try....:o

[Psychomeltdown]

air guns when a kid.

Hunted with .22 and 30-06 when older.

[SionEwig]

I have been firing rifles for 38 years and shotguns for 34 years. My wife has been firing rifles and shotguns for 35 years (she shoots 1" groups at 500 yards with her preferred rifle). I still regularly fire at least 100 rds each week, my wife 200 rds. My kids have been shooting rifles since they were 5 years old and shotguns since they were 8 (currently 10, 8, 7, 6), the boys fire at least 50 rds each per week. The cartridge firearms we brought are ones we actually own.

[Glen]

Mostly target shooting, though a little hunting as a kid. Pretty good with a .22 on the range, though I've also fired many other types of rifles, both hunting and 'assault' type. Shotguns I've also used, and am comfortable with a 12 guage. A little skeet shooting from time to time.

Oh, and I was a Bronze medalist in the 1820 Summer Olympics, but I had some coaching from Davy Crockett (long story) :eek: ...

[Ward]

Well I a fairly good shot I can hit a target 99 out 100 at just under 400 yards . I have fired and coulified with most weapons the US army used scince 1911 . Starting with the .50 cal MG down to the M.1911 pistol . My favoriy weapon though for any range is the 1903 Springfield .
I also like the M.79 if the rounds were not so heavy I would of brought one with me .










Damn my spelling .

[Glen]

BTW, the 'hunted a man for sport in the South' bit is in questionable taste, if it refers to what it seems to...:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Matt]

My taste are questionable I suppose. Being AH.com I needed some sort of joke answer though :p

If you've had some training please specify what.

Mine's similar to Ward's, though I wish I did bring a M-16 with me now :(

[Othniel]

My taste are questionable I suppose. Being AH.com I needed some sort of joke answer though :p

If you've had some training please specify what.

Mine's similar to Ward's, though I wish I did bring a M-16 with me now :(
I'm a horrible shot, despite the training I had...:o

But fort Benning, basic training, deemed unable to work under combat conditions...

[Ward]

BTW, the 'hunted a man for sport in the South' bit is in questionable taste, if it refers to what it seems to...:eek: :eek: :eek:


Well what south . Back in the 60's and early 70's I hunted a few men in the Souther part of Vietnam and kill more then a few there .

[jolo]

Well what south . Back in the 60's and early 70's I hunted a few men in the Souther part of Vietnam and kill more then a few there .

I hope you didn't do it for sport... :p

[Leo Caesius]

Mine's similar to Glenn's, sans 1820 Summer Olympics... .22 rifle, 12 gauge shotgun, skeet shooting. Nothing fancy; I've never done any military service. Since my father and his brothers (who taught me how to shoot) were all hunters, I was limited in the type and number of weapons I could lay my hands on. It has been several years since I've even shot at a target but I used to be quite good.

[Ward]

I hope you didn't do it for sport... :p



No I did it for pay .

[Matt]

I'm a horrible shot, despite the training I had...:o

But fort Benning, basic training, deemed unable to work under combat conditions...


Anyone can be trained to be an expert marksman. FWIW I unq'ed my first time through the rifle range in boot. I recieved some remidal training during team week, and the first time we got to the range after the weekend, I qual'ed expert. And have continued to everytime since then. We just need to find a training program that's right for you.

[SionEwig]

Well I a fairly good shot I can hit a target 99 out 100 at just under 400 yards . I have fired and coulified with most weapons the US army used scince 1911 . Starting with the .50 cal MG down to the M.1911 pistol . My favoriy weapon though for any range is the 1903 Springfield .
I also like the M.79 if the rounds were not so heavy I would of brought one with me .

Damn my spelling .

Ward,

You and my wife have the same tastes (at least on rifles). Her preferred is the 03 Springfield (she uses the Type B Free Rifle).

I had been thinking about the M-79 for this game also the past couple of days. That might be something to throw out for consideration as part of the community equipment in our resupply drop. :rolleyes:

[SionEwig]

BTW, the 'hunted a man for sport in the South' bit is in questionable taste, if it refers to what it seems to...:eek: :eek: :eek:

For some reason, I think it is a line from some movie:confused:

[Othniel]

Anyone can be trained to be an expert marksman. FWIW I unq'ed my first time through the rifle range in boot. I recieved some remidal training during team week, and the first time we got to the range after the weekend, I qual'ed expert. And have continued to everytime since then. We just need to find a training program that's right for you.
I was so bad that they couldn't set my sights. Really, couldn't even get a steady zero. (They couldn't even say that I was correcting on my own it was so bad)

[Psychomeltdown]

Shot at crows, rabbits, dogs, and the occasional coyote with the .22. Usually shooting at targets with the .22 and 30-06. though ti's been while since I last fired a rifle.

Deer hunting with the 30-06.

[Matt]

Ward,

You and my wife have the same tastes (at least on rifles). Her preferred is the 03 Springfield (she uses the Type B Free Rifle).

I had been thinking about the M-79 for this game also the past couple of days. That might be something to throw out for consideration as part of the
community equipment in our resupply drop. :rolleyes:


Top and me have been going over some things the Rangers could use. I've thought of maybe a hotchkiss gun like what the US used in the SpanAm War, he's thought of gatlings. The M-79(or even a Mk19) would be nice but ammo replacements would be waaaaay out of our league. but then again how many of these would ever be used. No clue. I'd even hesitate on a belt fed machine gun(oh gods of gods I would love a Pig). Damn weight considerations. :p

[Matt]

I was so bad that they couldn't set my sights. Really, couldn't even get a steady zero. (They couldn't even say that I was correcting on my own it was so bad)
I'm convinced I can fly out to Utah and teach you how to shoot.

:p

Were you ungodly nervious perhaps? Closing your eyes when you fired? Pulling your shots up b/c of overcompensation for recoil?

[Ward]

Ward,

You and my wife have the same tastes (at least on rifles). Her preferred is the 03 Springfield (she uses the Type B Free Rifle).

I had been thinking about the M-79 for this game also the past couple of days. That might be something to throw out for consideration as part of the community equipment in our resupply drop. :rolleyes:


Well then you bring a case of HE and I'll bring the M-79 and a case of CS .:D

Norbert has talked me out of the WP rounds :(

But I was thinking of Taking a BAR ant 20 mags for it .
Which do you guys think would be beter to have .

[Othniel]

I'm convinced I can fly out to Utah and teach you how to shoot.

:p

Were you ungodly nervious perhaps? Closing your eyes when you fired? Pulling your shots up b/c of overcompensation for recoil?
Maybe the first, but because I'm ambidexerous, with a preferance for the right (but not a dominance) I started shooting on my nondominate side, with my dominate eye, when they had me switch to my right side, I was more consistant in area but genrally a worse shot. I tried everything, from wearing reading glasses, to a patch. I never did close my eyes when I shot, and I know I at least attempted to keep the rifle firmly tucked into my shoulder.

In the final qualifier they set me up on a sperate hole, and let me shoot most of the day. I had to shoot eight times in order to get 26 targets, all other times not qaulifing.

[SionEwig]

Top and me have been going over some things the Rangers could use. I've thought of maybe a hotchkiss gun like what the US used in the SpanAm War, he's thought of gatlings. The M-79(or even a Mk19) would be nice but ammo replacements would be waaaaay out of our league. but then again how many of these would ever be used. No clue. I'd even hesitate on a belt fed machine gun(oh gods of gods I would love a Pig). Damn weight considerations. :p

The weight is why I was suggesting taking it out of the community share, I really think it should be considered. For some reason I have been having paranoid thoughts about us being way to close for comfort to the territory of the Hill Miowoks (sp?). A couple shots from that could go a long way to some serious deterrence.

If you really want a tripod mounted machine gun, I would lean toward say the M1919A4 (in 30-06), they are still in use in some places.

[Matt]

Maybe the first, but because I'm ambidexerous, with a preferance for the right (but not a dominance) I started shooting on my nondominate side, with my dominate eye, when they had me switch to my right side, I was more consistant in area but genrally a worse shot. I tried everything, from wearing reading glasses, to a patch. I never did close my eyes when I shot, and I know I at least attempted to keep the rifle firmly tucked into my shoulder.

In the final qualifier they set me up on a sperate hole, and let me shoot most of the day. I had to shoot eight times in order to get 26 targets, all other times not qaulifing.


That's it right there. I'm partially ambidexerous as well. Fuck what they say, good shooting is the result of comfort, what feels right for you. I shoot right handed, left eye. Most shot with the same eye as their firing side. but it works for me.

[Othniel]

That's it right there. I'm partially ambidexerous as well. Fuck what they say, good shooting is the result of comfort, what feels right for you. I shoot right handed, left eye. Most shot with the same eye as their firing side. but it works for me.
Well I'm right handed, left eyed as well...

[Flocculencio]

M16-S1. I'm not a particularly good shot but I can use a rifle.

[Ward]

Matt should we ask for people to bring M-16A2 and a case of rounds for them . As part of our comunity iteams, or do we want more weapons that fire 30.06 rounds and amo .

[Matt]

I was thinking about that. I've PM'ed you about the foot lockers for each ranger. As it is I plan to have an M1 carbine in there for each man. But I'm thinking otherwise now, I'll have to take it into my consideration.

[Ward]

I was thinking about that. I've PM'ed you about the foot lockers for each ranger. As it is I plan to have an M1 carbine in there for each man. But I'm thinking otherwise now, I'll have to take it into my consideration.


Mt fathers foot locker from before the war (WWII) weighs in at just under 8lbs and 14 ozs . or go with 9 lbs each and check The GURPS site Norbert put up for the rest of the ideams .

[The_Leader]

How about a M1919a6 instead for a BAR?
Why not bring a mk7 for the garand and use grenade?Unless u could "shoehore" 203 under the enfeilds,garands,or 03.Instead for a mk19 or m79??

[Matt]

Well I wouldn't take a M1919 instead of a BAR, there's a considerable weight difference that would make me keep em in camp unless we really need them. The weights I'm finding is 34 lbs, I don't think that's with the bipod. That's effin heavy!

As for the 203, they make pistol grips for the thing, so we wouldn't need to shoehorn it underneath the Enfields. Of course if 16s come along, we wouldn't even need to worry bout nothing ;)

[SionEwig]

I was thinking about that. I've PM'ed you about the foot lockers for each ranger. As it is I plan to have an M1 carbine in there for each man. But I'm thinking otherwise now, I'll have to take it into my consideration.

Heck NO on the M-1 carbine, and that from someone who loves them. You already have them with a great rifle (SMLE in 30-06). If you insist on going with a semi-auto then go with the Johnson rifle.

[Matt]

Heck NO on the M-1 carbine, and that from someone who loves them.

The stopping power?

Anyways, alot of this is idle thinking on my behalf.

[SionEwig]

Matt should we ask for people to bring M-16A2 and a case of rounds for them . As part of our comunity iteams, or do we want more weapons that fire 30.06 rounds and amo .

More 30-06, or go with 308 and get some chamber inserts for the 30-06 weapons we already have. We want rounds that have a better chance to take down someone/something. And 5.56 just doesn't really cut it.

[Norbert]

I qualified with M16A1, Colt M1911, and 9mm. I learned to shoot with Semi-auto .22, .22 Magnums, .25-35 Winchester, various models of .30-06 and .30-30s, as well as 38 and .357 revolvers, and .410, .16 gauge and 12 gauge shotguns. Even had some use with Mausers and 10 Gauge. Hunted squirrels with rifles and pistols, and used to hunt various game from deer to rabbits, and crows. Had some training loading and firing muzzle loaders.

[SionEwig]

The stopping power?

Anyways, alot of this is idle thinking on my behalf.

Yes, the stopping power just isn't there. Don't forget that they were designed and intended as a replacement for the 1911A1 in 45ACP, to give people something that they had a better chance of hitting with and at a better range than any handgun.

[The_Leader]

fair enough
i personally would good for a 200rd box with 15lb then save it just for for the convince of weight a 20 rd clip.

Thought a johnson lmg would work even with the mag being like a stern

thou a m60 in 30.06 would be better the either

[Matt]

Yes, the stopping power just isn't there. Don't forget that they were designed and intended as a replacement for the 1911A1 in 45ACP, to give people something that they had a better chance of hitting with and at a better range than any handgun.

That's what I was dwelling on. The only thing that keeps bothering me is the weight of god damn .30-06 ammo. It's killing me ;)

[Matt]

fair enough
i personally would good for a 200rd box with 15lb then save it just for for the convince of weight a 20 rd clip.

Thought a johnson lmg would work even with the mag being like a stern

thou a m60 in 30.06 would be better the either


240. The m60 is a sensitive animal. The 240 is a real beast.

[The_Leader]

really thou they where 200??

THis is a bad idea but how about a mg42. That way we could scare the hell out of everybody

[Ward]

fair enough
i personally would good for a 200rd box with 15lb then save it just for for the convince of weight a 20 rd clip.

Thought a johnson lmg would work even with the mag being like a stern

thou a m60 in 30.06 would be better the either


The one thing with a MG is its very high rate of fire means it will go through are ammo to fast .

We dont need a full mg at all what we need is a few squard support weapons .

[Matt]

Thus right back to the BAR. Or maybe a modified Bren gun.

[The_Leader]

The one thing with a MG is its very high rate of fire means it will go through are ammo to fast .

We dont need a full mg at all what we need is a few squard support weapons .

Then use a johnson lmg its almost the same ROF,lighter,and have a longer range

[Ward]

Then use a johnson lmg its almost the same ROF,lighter,and have a longer range


I have no experince with the Johnson LMG but I know the BAR .

[Dave Howery]

Never been in the military, but I've handled rifles a lot. Got my first .22 when I was 9, have hunted with a .30-30, and .30-06. Lots of experience in my younger days in hunting deer, killed literally thousands of magpies and gophers around the farm. Haven't been hunting in many years, but I have gotten a little into black powder rifles recently... both flintlocks and caplocks, done some target shooting.

oddly enough, I can't shoot a shotgun worth a damn. I have a .20 gauge, have shot dozens of shells out of it, for a career total of about 4 ducks....

[Gerard-ABC]

Real-world experience - Airguns at fairs <g>
- Gone through a couple of boxes of .22 with a rifle

Game-world experience - Above, plus..... a few boxes of .45 with a M1911 and a couple of boxes of 30-06 with the rifle.


As to weapons, we don't really need heavy weapons, or much in the line of automatic weapons.

By the time anyone out there has armour, or any relatively hi-tech weapons, any rifles that we bring could not be working, simply due to old age / metal fatigue. Ammunition also fails after many years, I think.

I can see our future generations having to rely more on black power guns.

If we want to have some more weapons now, I'd try to standardise on calibres and ammunition. Say .45 for pistols, and 30-06 for rifles. If we need to open fire, then we got for aimed shots, and not automatic fire. We hit what we aim at, and kill it. More chance of this with 30-06 than wil 5.56mm Also we could assume that the ASBs standardised weapons for us ?

Regarding grenade launchers - no real need for the firepower of a Mk.19, and the ammunition supply would be more weight. If we're to get M-16s, then adding M-203s would be a good idea. They can be swapped between weapons, and it's not impossible to make some sort of frame for them out of wood if we needed to. 40mm rounds ? HE, CS, and illuminating. Canister if we get desperate.

Machine guns ? Aimed rifle fire would be better, but if you want them....
How about the 5.56mm M-249 SAW, same ammo as an M-16.
Or Minimi, like the British use.

Overall, having a BAR is a good idea, as same 30-06 as the rifles.

I'm tempted to say that if we run into a situation where a machine gun would be needed, rather than rifle fire, that things may have gone too far for a machine gun to save us.

Also could ask for a few boxes of grenades and rolls of wire to do tripwires. Could use them for perimeter defence.

Also Night Vision Goggles, batteries, chargers.

We could also look at older weapons, like swords, no need for ammo for those. Also crossbows / longbows.

We need to consider how our weapons will look like in 100 or 200 years.


Regards,
Gerard

[Bulgaroktonos]

I said I hunted a man for sport, but in reality it's more "Had some training."

I'm somewhat of a natural for it though....

[SionEwig]

Well then you bring a case of HE and I'll bring the M-79 and a case of CS .:D

Norbert has talked me out of the WP rounds :(

But I was thinking of Taking a BAR ant 20 mags for it .
Which do you guys think would be beter to have .

Well, depending on which resupply poll we end up going with, we may want more than that.

HE is .75 lbs per shell
CS is 1 lb per shell
Illum is 1 lb per shell
and the M-79 is only 5.5 lbs (or there abouts)

Got to thinking that those parachute flare rounds for it might be really useful.

How much do you think we could need?

If you are chosing between a BAR and a M-79, then I think the M-79 would be of more use to the group, since Matt did bring a couple of BARs. Now if it is for your family, then I think the BAR would get more use.

And why does Norbert not want WP shells?:confused:

[Matt]

Well, depending on which resupply poll we end up going with, we may want more than that.

HE is .75 lbs per shell
CS is 1 lb per shell
Illum is 1 lb per shell
and the M-79 is only 5.5 lbs (or there abouts)

Got to thinking that those parachute flare rounds for it might be really useful.

How much do you think we could need?

If you are chosing between a BAR and a M-79, then I think the M-79 would be of more use to the group, since Matt did bring a couple of BARs. Now if it is for your family, then I think the BAR would get more use.

And why does Norbert not want WP shells?:confused:

No BARs yet, would need em in the resupply. I gotta get working on the specs for every thing I need on my end for that.

[pisces74]

My rifle is the only rifle I've fired with any regularity(black powder percussion cap enfield) I've fired various pistols, and a few wuto rifles, but I perfer single shot rifles.

On antoher note why not just bring back a lot of black powder and dynamite, in the long run it'd be more useful per pound then any rifle that you'd bring back, and accomplish the same result that you wish to achieve.

[SionEwig]

No BARs yet, would need em in the resupply. I gotta get working on the specs for every thing I need on my end for that.

Sorry, bad memory on my part. Thought you had listed a couple on your original gear.

[SionEwig]

<snippage>

On antoher note why not just bring back a lot of black powder and dynamite, in the long run it'd be more useful per pound then any rifle that you'd bring back, and accomplish the same result that you wish to achieve.

Not sure what you mean here?

[pisces74]

Ok I'm assuming that the discussion about rifle usage, and gun training is in reference to defense from animals and natives. Working under the assumption that any old bang bang shooter is going to frighten either of these to a degree, but aside from protection and hunting they're not much use. Bringing back quite alot of black powder and explosives has the added bonus of being used for construction, demolition, defense, and dynamite fishing. Furthermore you gain more powder since you don't have the weight of the guns to worry about. unless you're worried about a civil war in Ianopolis.

[Ward]

Well, depending on which resupply poll we end up going with, we may want more than that.

HE is .75 lbs per shell
CS is 1 lb per shell
Illum is 1 lb per shell
and the M-79 is only 5.5 lbs (or there abouts)

Got to thinking that those parachute flare rounds for it might be really useful.

How much do you think we could need?

If you are chosing between a BAR and a M-79, then I think the M-79 would be of more use to the group, since Matt did bring a couple of BARs. Now if it is for your family, then I think the BAR would get more use.

And why does Norbert not want WP shells?:confused:



How about 40 rounds of each for the M-79 . with an extra 20 rounds of HE .

He is scared I will set fire to the Grass lands and burn us out .

[Ghost 88]

No BARs yet, would need em in the resupply. I gotta get working on the specs for every thing I need on my end for that.
BARs are a waste of weight as they eat ammo we're better off with single shoot or M-1s. May think of including shotgun rounds if you go with M-79s. Thought concussion greanades might come in handy if we needed to collect alot of fish in a hurry.:eek:

[Ward]

Actulay some thing we might want to bring back is a couple of 4 lb cannons . They are black powder and made of Brass and would last about 200 years . They don't need the carrages we could build later .

[Ward]

BARs are a waste of weight as they eat ammo we're better off with single shoot or M-1s. May think of including shotgun rounds if you go with M-79s. Thought concussion greanades might come in handy if we needed to collect alot of fish in a hurry.:eek:


The Bar can fire singal shot and it has a longer range than an M-1 rifle .

Plus I know better then to rock and roll with a weapon .

[Ghost 88]

Actulay some thing we might want to bring back is a couple of 4 lb cannons . They are black powder and made of Brass and would last about 200 years . They don't need the carrages we could build later .
Good idea. Put in powderAnd chipped stone instant shotgun on steriods. Wouldn't need shot or shell as blowing up walls is way in the future.

[Ward]

Good idea. Put in powderAnd chipped stone instant shotgun on steriods. Wouldn't need shot or shell as blowing up walls is way in the future.


Thats what I was thinking and they are light and can be moved by 2 men .

[Ghost 88]

The Bar can fire singal shot and it has a longer range than an M-1 rifle .

Plus I know better then to rock and roll with a weapon .
Hell I knew you did,but lets face it when it comes to fire discilpline most of us don't have a clue. Thats why I will always put in a "are you sure about this" when full-auto wpns are dicussed. I do this because we will have a limited supply of ammo what ever our final decisions are.

[pisces74]

Hell I knew you did,but lets face it when it comes to fire discilpline most of us don't have a clue. Thats why I will always put in a "are you sure about this" when full-auto wpns are dicussed. I do this because we will have a limited supply of ammo what ever our final decisions are.

I also agree full auto weapons are pretty wasteful for what we need, it woul;d be akin to killing roachs with anvils.

[Ward]

Hell I knew you did,but lets face it when it comes to fire discilpline most of us don't have a clue. Thats why I will always put in a "are you sure about this" when full-auto wpns are dicussed. I do this because we will have a limited supply of ammo what ever our final decisions are.


The other nice thing about the BAR is the Mags are own 20 rounds each .


And if need be its can be fired auto and not move of target that much due to its weight. But you can move forward with it .

[Matt]

Okay, well let's do our threat assement and look at what we're considering.

1) Natives- intially even 'low-tech' firearms would be sufficent to stop an attack. Once the initial shock value where's off, we'd be vunerable to mass attacks against isolated groups.

Solution: Rangers well operate in groups no smaller then a fireteam, 4 men. Each Ranger has a SLME(.30-06) and a Colt .45. If and When we burn through all the .30-06 we'll be in slightly more trouble. Thus bring more .30-06. A low tech gatling gun can provide perimeter defense to settlements and can use black powder. Same with a brass cannon, which has less moving parts.

2) Conqustidors- Could be heavily armed, but with limited resupply.

Solution: Our numbers work to our advantage. The renegades can put only a limited number of men in the field. Provide adequete training to Militia and Rangers in fire and manuvear.

3) Wildlife- Firearms of any quality can kill an animal. They won't mass for an attack ;)

Solution: Even black powder weapons can perform this utlity.

4) Other Groups- Possible that there are other groups similar to our own. Then again, they're may not be.

Solution: This is the one I'm a worried about. We don't know what out there, nor in what numbers.

5) Other 'Native' groups- We think it's the year 3000 BC. But what if it's 1500AD. We only have the ASBs word about what year it is. Otherwise the solution is the same with more primative groups, perhaps a few more heavy weapons.

[SionEwig]

How about 40 rounds of each for the M-79 . with an extra 20 rounds of HE .

He is scared I will set fire to the Grass lands and burn us out .

Hmmm.

I was thinking more along the lines of 100+ rds of HE and around 80 each of the CS and Illum.

I don't necessarily agree with him about the WP, on the other hand I remember around a 100 acre forest fire at Leonard Wood from a parachute flare once:D .

[SionEwig]

BARs are a waste of weight as they eat ammo we're better off with single shoot or M-1s. May think of including shotgun rounds if you go with M-79s. Thought concussion greanades might come in handy if we needed to collect alot of fish in a hurry.:eek:

You are generally right about the BARs, that is why I think only a couple would be appropriate, for that just in case mass attack. They do use the ammo that we have seemed to standardize with (mostly), can fire single shot, and are about right for a big mess support weapon just like the M-79.

The shotgun rounds for the M-79 really aren't that much of an improvement over 12 GA 00 buck.

Not saying we should take the BARs, but we don't want to dismiss them out of hand.

[SionEwig]

Okay, well let's do our threat assement and look at what we're considering.

1) Natives- intially even 'low-tech' firearms would be sufficent to stop an attack. Once the initial shock value where's off, we'd be vunerable to mass attacks against isolated groups.

Solution: Rangers well operate in groups no smaller then a fireteam, 4 men. Each Ranger has a SLME(.30-06) and a Colt .45. If and When we burn through all the .30-06 we'll be in slightly more trouble. Thus bring more .30-06. A low tech gatling gun can provide perimeter defense to settlements and can use black powder. Same with a brass cannon, which has less moving parts.

2) Conqustidors- Could be heavily armed, but with limited resupply.

Solution: Our numbers work to our advantage. The renegades can put only a limited number of men in the field. Provide adequete training to Militia and Rangers in fire and manuvear.

3) Wildlife- Firearms of any quality can kill an animal. They won't mass for an attack ;)

Solution: Even black powder weapons can perform this utlity.

4) Other Groups- Possible that there are other groups similar to our own. Then again, they're may not be.

Solution: This is the one I'm a worried about. We don't know what out there, nor in what numbers.

5) Other 'Native' groups- We think it's the year 3000 BC. But what if it's 1500AD. We only have the ASBs word about what year it is. Otherwise the solution is the same with more primative groups, perhaps a few more heavy weapons.

Good assessment Matt.

The Conquistadors (#2) had been in my thoughts, but not that much.

However, #5, and especially #4 now have me worried. Haven't even thought of them. Just what we need, the blasted Spanish sailing around and pestering us, though we should be able to easily handle ANY of those early expeditions, though if they recruit native allies we could be in trouble. And the thought that there might be another group out there like us could be a serious concern. Thanks Matt:eek: .

[Matt]

Good assessment Matt.

The Conquistadors (#2) had been in my thoughts, but not that much.

However, #5, and especially #4 now have me worried. Haven't even thought of them. Just what we need, the blasted Spanish sailing around and pestering us, though we should be able to easily handle ANY of those early expeditions, though if they recruit native allies we could be in trouble. And the thought that there might be another group out there like us could be a serious concern. Thanks Matt:eek: .


Several people have let me known I have a devious mind when I brought these concerns up. :o

I've done some quick research, and no European settlements were started in the Bay Area until relatively later. Hey, contact with 'advance' groups like that might work to our benefit. A relativly cheap(and light!) compass would be generations ahead of it's time, and we could have an easier supply of things like powder.

4.. Well 4 is enough to keep me professionally paranoid for a while.

[Othniel]

Several people have let me known I have a devious mind when I brought these concerns up. :o

I've done some quick research, and no European settlements were started in the Bay Area until relatively later. Hey, contact with 'advance' groups like that might work to our benefit. A relativly cheap(and light!) compass would be generations ahead of it's time, and we could have an easier supply of things like powder.

4.. Well 4 is enough to keep me professionally paranoid for a while.
Well Compasses are realtively cheap to make. Alls it requires is a porcliean bowl and a neddle in water.

And with Lee in this group we don't have to be paraniod, he'll do it for us.

[Matt]

Well Compasses are realtively cheap to make. Alls it requires is a porcliean bowl and a neddle in water.

And with Lee in this group we don't have to be paraniod, he'll do it for us.


Yeah, but a standard GI compass is durable and portable.

[Bety]

My experience is mainly air rifle, but the results are rather pesimistic.
But usually I mark at least somewhere near the target, not the people around...

[Ward]

Yeah, but a standard GI compass is durable and portable.


So are The Boy Scout Compass I still have the one I got as a First Class in the 50's .

[Glen]

Okay, well let's do our threat assement and look at what we're considering.

1) Natives- intially even 'low-tech' firearms would be sufficent to stop an attack. Once the initial shock value where's off, we'd be vunerable to mass attacks against isolated groups.

True, except for the fact that the natives in our region do not have a history or culture, IIRC, that would be able to organize or even conceive of such tactics. It will probably be years before we see such things, and then most likely under the instigation of renegade uptimers if at all.

Solution: Rangers well operate in groups no smaller then a fireteam, 4 men. Each Ranger has a SLME(.30-06) and a Colt .45. If and When we burn through all the .30-06 we'll be in slightly more trouble. Thus bring more .30-06. A low tech gatling gun can provide perimeter defense to settlements and can use black powder. Same with a brass cannon, which has less moving parts.

Being paranoid, this sounds good to me.


2) Conqustidors- Could be heavily armed, but with limited resupply.

Which makes them our most immediate possible concern. When their plans come to ruin (the natives in the region are most likely to just move away from them, being quasi-nomadic, than remain under their rule), they will have to decide whether to come back to the main group hat in hand (which I think likely in many cases...dreams of conquest will quickly fade when faced with reality; and not just the difficulty of it but the sheer wrongness of the idea.), and die-hards that might try to raid us to keep resupplied.


Solution: Our numbers work to our advantage. The renegades can put only a limited number of men in the field. Provide adequete training to Militia and Rangers in fire and manuvear.

And keep vigilant. We can not let our guard down, for the time we are growing most complacent is likely when those who survive unrepentant will become the most desparate.


3) Wildlife- Firearms of any quality can kill an animal. They won't mass for an attack ;)

Solution: Even black powder weapons can perform this utlity.

And trapping as well...


4) Other Groups- Possible that there are other groups similar to our own. Then again, they're may not be.

Solution: This is the one I'm a worried about. We don't know what out there, nor in what numbers.

Good thought. We assume we're it, but do we have any real way of knowing? Unfortunately, beyond having our area well scouted and building ourselves up as rapidly as possible, we have no real options here. We will have to simply hope for the best and carry on as best we can unless evidence of 'others' appears.


5) Other 'Native' groups- We think it's the year 3000 BC. But what if it's 1500AD. We only have the ASBs word about what year it is. Otherwise the solution is the same with more primative groups, perhaps a few more heavy weapons.

The evidence that we are in pre-Columbian times should be pretty good, based on population densities, and these natives will have differences from the ones our experts have heard of from the era around the time of contact.

[SionEwig]

The evidence that we are in pre-Columbian times should be pretty good, based on population densities, and these natives will have differences from the ones our experts have heard of from the era around the time of contact.

We should not yet depend on population densities to give us a time period. After all, out sample thus far is 1 tribe, not very good to try to extrapolate anything from. Thus the need for wider scouting in the future.

[Glen]

We should not yet depend on population densities to give us a time period. After all, out sample thus far is 1 tribe, not very good to try to extrapolate anything from. Thus the need for wider scouting in the future.

I wasn't suggesting right now, but over time as we become more familiar with the area.

[Matt]

The time period is easy enough to verify. Though I suggested the being lied to since we have ran into 2 groups already, with a low population density. Could it be higher? We don't know.

What we do know is this. The position of the stars have changed in 5000 years. We can figure out when we are based on that.

[Norbert]

The time period is easy enough to verify. Though I suggested the being lied to since we have ran into 2 groups already, with a low population density. Could it be higher? We don't know.

What we do know is this. The position of the stars have changed in 5000 years. We can figure out when we are based on that.

True, but has anyone brought an astronomy reference?

[jolo]

True, but has anyone brought an astronomy reference?

We only need the position of the planets - they don't repeat very often. Most encyclopedias should contain enough information on their position 5000 years in the future, their speeds, and so on. Electronic encyclopedias might even have a solar system simulator.

A few stars close to earth also move pretty fast - a picture of such a star with it's surroundings would be enough if we find an article on it's speed.

[Norbert]

We only need the position of the planets - they don't repeat very often. Most encyclopedias should contain enough information on their position 5000 years in the future, their speeds, and so on. Electronic encyclopedias might even have a solar system simulator.

A few stars close to earth also move pretty fast - a picture of such a star with it's surroundings would be enough if we find an article on it's speed.

And again I ask, did anyone bring a reference? Or did anyone bring instruments to measure the locations? Does anyone have an astronomy simulation program on their computer? Did anyone dedicate the 100 lbs for a set of encyclopedia? (BTW, I checked my Britanica, yes it has some of the info, but not enough information. I did such calculations as part of my Physics classes, but I had access to Astronomy texts that had the variables, and though I was usually within 1/2 of a percent of the actual answer, the variables and possibilities of mistakes by the inexperienced make these calculations inaccurate.

[pisces74]

And again I ask, did anyone bring a reference? Or did anyone bring instruments to measure the locations? Does anyone have an astronomy simulation program on their computer? Did anyone dedicate the 100 lbs for a set of encyclopedia? (BTW, I checked my Britanica, yes it has some of the info, but not enough information. I did such calculations as part of my Physics classes, but I had access to Astronomy texts that had the variables, and though I was usually within 1/2 of a percent of the actual answer, the variables and possibilities of mistakes by the inexperienced make these calculations inaccurate.

Actually I believe Jolo did, however I'm pressed for time, so can't authenitcate.

[jolo]

As for an encyclopedia, I did bring one along - though not the 100 lb edition. Of my computer I said it had "everything in the whole books and some more" stored on it - but if there is no solar system simulator in it, I could write one.

It doesn't need to be very exact - if we know it's somewhere between 3500 and 2500 BC, everything's fine. Only once we approach the last 2 millenia will there be a problem and a need for more exact calculations.

Btw., about 3500 years ago, all observatories were suddenly wrong by 3 degrees. A big change in some water bodies, a large asteroid flying by the planet in a very small distance, or the likes could explain that.

And we should build such an observatory asap - to make sure we get the seasons right.

[Othniel]

I think there are accurate calendenders south of us, Mayan. Also if we focus on building up, in 60-80 years we should be able to establize trade routes with the Inca.

[Norbert]

I think there are accurate calendenders south of us, Mayan. Also if we focus on building up, in 60-80 years we should be able to establize trade routes with the Inca.

Yes, the Maya had very accurate calandars. But they do not exist as a civilization until 1000 BCE.

[Othniel]

Yes, the Maya had very accurate calandars. But they do not exist as a civilization until 1000 BCE.
Meh, any city-building society with an intrest in the stars, religious or otherwise, will start to devolp more accurate calenders, from the Babylonians to the Mayans. Besides I think the Mount Alban civilization is coming into effect around now, also Mississippian societies should be stablizing around this point...

[jolo]

I think there are accurate calendenders south of us, Mayan. Also if we focus on building up, in 60-80 years we should be able to establize trade routes with the Inca.

We can build one ourselves by putting a circular fence around a post to mark winter solstice, summer solstice, and so on on the fence.