Grand Trek (ALT1)

[GBW]

When is the movement north going to begin? And how much of a head start is the lumbering party going to have?

[Psychomeltdown]

When Othniel's team gets back, probably day 21? We can't move out if we don't know the terrain.

[Othniel]

When is the movement north going to begin? And how much of a head start is the lumbering party going to have?
A day or two after we get back

Head Start:
4 hours, they leave earlist, prehaps around 5 am, Won't have the first group after that leave till 9 am, then start sending groups of people (30 to 50 family groups) out every half hour. To fit the orginal plan I proposed, I hope the council excepts it.

[Norbert]

When is the movement north going to begin? And how much of a head start is the lumbering party going to have?

Main lumber party, less those that will be needed by the main camp, will go with the first group north (Just realized that I am with the main scout party and when I get back, I will need to pack my things and head back out. No rest for the wicked, I suppose!)

[Norbert]

A day or two after we get back

Head Start:
4 hours, they leave earlist, prehaps around 5 am, Won't have the first group after that leave till 9 am, then start sending groups of people (30 to 50 family groups) out every half hour. To fit the orginal plan I proposed, I hope the council excepts it.

We ought to hold off the main party until the second day. That will give the advance party time to prepare the path if necessary. I would actually like two or three days, but I will settle for one.

[Othniel]

We ought to hold off the main party until the second day. That will give the advance party time to prepare the path if necessary. I would actually like two or three days, but I will settle for one.
I was going to say half a day. That way you guys would have time to form the first camp.

[Norbert]

I was going to say half a day. That way you guys would have time to form the first camp.

Half a day might work, I fully expect that the main party will take a long time to move any distance, with the children and herd animals.

[Othniel]

Half a day might work, I fully expect that the main party will take a long time to move any distance, with the children and herd animals.
So we have you guys leave early, and have the first group leave around 2? That way the first encampment can be set up best as possible.

MBarry, how many Rangers would be able to be spared per group? Either mounted or dismounted? (saying around 600 family group, and leaving with 30-50 families per grouping... thats 12 to 20 different groups...)

Should we put herd animals in the rear, front or middle? Or should they be spread out among the groups?

[SionEwig]

So we have you guys leave early, and have the first group leave around 2? That way the first encampment can be set up best as possible.

MBarry, how many Rangers would be able to be spared per group? Either mounted or dismounted? (saying around 600 family group, and leaving with 30-50 families per grouping... thats 12 to 20 different groups...)

Should we put herd animals in the rear, front or middle? Or should they be spread out among the groups?

All draft animals will be needed for this, so no one should be riding. The main limiting factor on moving the group isn't wagons, but draft animals, you will need at least 4 per wagon. As to the herd animals, most of them can be tethered to the back of the wagons, just like it was done back in the olden days.

[Norbert]

So we have you guys leave early, and have the first group leave around 2? That way the first encampment can be set up best as possible.

Should we put herd animals in the rear, front or middle? Or should they be spread out among the groups?

Probably should have the herd animals spread out. The first two groups should have no kids under twelve, and the last three also, so the families with smaller children are in the middle groups. Each groups adults should also be checked out on firearms, also. If there are people who don't pass the firearms 'test', they should make up the minority of the group they are with. So the militia needs to be organized and checked out before the move.

[Othniel]

All draft animals will be needed for this, so no one should be riding. The main limiting factor on moving the group isn't wagons, but draft animals, you will need at least 4 per wagon. As to the herd animals, most of them can be tethered to the back of the wagons, just like it was done back in the olden days.
Right, but we should spread out the trained personal best we can... We'll also spread out the heard animals.

[Othniel]

Probably should have the herd animals spread out. The first two groups should have no kids under twelve, and the last three also, so the families with smaller children are in the middle groups. Each groups adults should also be checked out on firearms, also. If there are people who don't pass the firearms 'test', they should make up the minority of the group they are with. So the militia needs to be organized and checked out before the move.
Your one step ahead of me.:D

[pisces74]

When Othniel's team gets back, probably day 21? We can't move out if we don't know the terrain.

Theoretically we could, we'd just have to be very careful setting camps.

[SionEwig]

Right, but we should spread out the trained personal best we can... We'll also spread out the heard animals.

Yes, but someone do the math on how many wagons we can have going at once, I've lost track of how many animals of the various types we have. We may not be able to have more than 2 groups of 50 wagons on the road at one time anyway. And yes, the herd (and unheard:D) animals should be divided amongst the various groups, except possibly for the first and last ones.

[Norbert]

Theoretically we could, we'd just have to be very careful setting camps.

Without knowing where we are going, we would be like the Jews wandering looking for the promised land. And if the move starts, and we discover we have to turn around to go back the way we came, we would run into real problems.

[Othniel]

Yes, but someone do the math on how many wagons we can have going at once, I've lost track of how many animals of the various types we have. We may not be able to have more than 2 groups of 50 wagons on the road at one time anyway. And yes, the herd (and unheard:D) animals should be divided amongst the various groups, except possibly for the first and last ones.
Ok, Norbert, looks like you get a full day. I still say a half hour apart will work, but we can space that out more if needed. 4 hours might be the most it can be spread out, going from 8 am, 12 am , 4 pm, and 8 pm. Roughly lets say we organize into 15 groups...thats fourty families per group if we estimate around 600 families..

[SionEwig]

2nd expedition left on Day 7 early, should arrive at the final settlement area late Day 9, 6 or 7 days of surveying and exploring (Day 15 or 16), 3 days back (Day 18 or 19, late), so if the first group left the next morning (which is possible) it could be Day 19 or 20! And then 9 to 20 days to get there. And then turn around and come back for the next groups.

[Norbert]

Ok, Norbert, looks like you get a full day. I still say a half hour apart will work, but we can space that out more if needed. 4 hours might be the most it can be spread out, going from 8 am, 12 am , 4 pm, and 8 pm. Roughly lets say we organize into 15 groups...thats fourty families per group if we estimate around 600 families..

Get rid of the 4 & 8 PM, we don't want anyone wandering around on the trail at dusk or at night. We'd be asking for trouble then (a group gets on the wrong path, someone wanders into the woods and gets left behind, and so on). Also, lets sacrifice some of our precious paper to make a list of exactly who is in each group, and have a roll-call before the days travel, and at the end. At the end of any rest breaks also. It will help cut down the nescesity of going out looking for someone who may have wandered off. Think of a second grade field trip.

[Ward]

Get rid of the 4 & 8 PM, we don't want anyone wandering around on the trail at dusk or at night. We'd be asking for trouble then (a group gets on the wrong path, someone wanders into the woods and gets left behind, and so on). Also, lets sacrifice some of our precious paper to make a list of exactly who is in each group, and have a roll-call before the days travel, and at the end. At the end of any rest breaks also. It will help cut down the nescesity of going out looking for someone who may have wandered off. Think of a second grade field trip.



Im sorry it more like a kindergarden Fild trip .

[Othniel]

2nd expedition left on Day 7 early, should arrive at the final settlement area late Day 9, 6 or 7 days of surveying and exploring (Day 15 or 16), 3 days back (Day 18 or 19, late), so if the first group left the next morning (which is possible) it could be Day 19 or 20! And then 9 to 20 days to get there. And then turn around and come back for the next groups.
But from 12 to 20 groups that would mean we'd have to spend 9 to 20 days on each group... We have Norbert lead the advance party, and have thse that went on the expedition be guides among these groups. Now we have enough people to try to move a good portion of us at timed intervals, stopping for the night at prepared encampment by the advanced group. The problem though is the transportation of the stuff, which is probably why we left people at the ISOT site for a period of time. If that is the group you are talking about I suppose we come back for them, leaving Gerald-ABC among them to consturt wagons as to encourage as much stuff to be transported as possible.

[Othniel]

Get rid of the 4 & 8 PM, we don't want anyone wandering around on the trail at dusk or at night. We'd be asking for trouble then (a group gets on the wrong path, someone wanders into the woods and gets left behind, and so on). Also, lets sacrifice some of our precious paper to make a list of exactly who is in each group, and have a roll-call before the days travel, and at the end. At the end of any rest breaks also. It will help cut down the nescesity of going out looking for someone who may have wandered off. Think of a second grade field trip.
Well I wantd closer times to start out with... how about 2 and 1/2 hours. Put the early group at 7, next group at 9:30, 12, and 2:30?

[SionEwig]

Ok, Norbert, looks like you get a full day. I still say a half hour apart will work, but we can space that out more if needed. 4 hours might be the most it can be spread out, going from 8 am, 12 am , 4 pm, and 8 pm. Roughly lets say we organize into 15 groups...thats fourty families per group if we estimate around 600 families..

If we have 600 draft animals, and I don't think we do, then at 4 animals per wagon, we could have 150 wagons on the trek at one time, break them into groups of 50 for this example.

Length of such a group will be a lot, wagon is 10 feet long, with teams more like 30 feet, and if nose to nose then 1500 feet, and adding space in between and tethered critters, I think that 3000 feet would be in the ball park. Minimum 4 hours between the groups. Truthfully it would be best if each group left on seperate days.

[Norbert]

Well I wantd closer times to start out with... how about 2 and 1/2 hours. Put the early group at 7, next group at 9:30, 12, and 2:30?

Could work. It will be a very hard trip no matter how we do it.

[Othniel]

If we have 600 draft animals, and I don't think we do, then at 4 animals per wagon, we could have 150 wagons on the trek at one time, break them into groups of 50 for this example.

Length of such a group will be a lot, wagon is 10 feet long, with teams more like 30 feet, and if nose to nose then 1500 feet, and adding space in between and tethered critters, I think that 3000 feet would be in the ball park. Minimum 4 hours between the groups. Truthfully it would be best if each group left on seperate days.
so 12 groups? That means twevle days. I'd like to see the most people on the trail as we can manage at one time. If it requires sperate days, then so be it, but the thought of losing that much daylight...:(

[Othniel]

Could work. It will be a very hard trip no matter how we do it.
I know, but we need to blance the urgency of moving, with the maximized safty. If I push the urgentcy you guys will bring me in compromise with safty, thus bringing a effientcy between the two. But I'm working from round stats here...

[SionEwig]

But from 12 to 20 groups that would mean we'd have to spend 9 to 20 days on each group... We have Norbert lead the advance party, and have thse that went on the expedition be guides among these groups. Now we have enough people to try to move a good portion of us at timed intervals, stopping for the night at prepared encampment by the advanced group. The problem though is the transportation of the stuff, which is probably why we left people at the ISOT site for a period of time. If that is the group you are talking about I suppose we come back for them, leaving Gerald-ABC among them to consturt wagons as to encourage as much stuff to be transported as possible.

Yes, it is going to take from between 9 to 20 days from the time the first party or call it what you will leaves the ISOT site and arrives at the Berkely site. It is 45 miles taking a route that the wagons can make. Making 5 miles a day for such a group is optimistic, we have not made great wagons here. Psycho thinks that 20 days is more likely for each party/set of families to get there when you include breakdowns and other possible problems.

As far as the turn around and come back, if that is what you are asking about, we must do that since we do not have enough draft animals to haul all the wagons that we will need at once, also we won't have that many wagons made, 10 wagons a day is about the best that can be done with the number of workers (50).

[Norbert]

ACH!! I hate to admit it, but I didn't do the math on the length of each group. We are going to have to go single file. A Day between groups may be the pure logistics of it. But, it will give those building wagons another ten days to finish building as many as we can.

[SionEwig]

so 12 groups? That means twevle days. I'd like to see the most people on the trail as we can manage at one time. If it requires sperate days, then so be it, but the thought of losing that much daylight...:(

NO, more than 12 days. What part of we do not have enough animals to pull the wagons have you missed.:confused:

[Othniel]

Yes, it is going to take from between 9 to 20 days from the time the first party or call it what you will leaves the ISOT site and arrives at the Berkely site. It is 45 miles taking a route that the wagons can make. Making 5 miles a day for such a group is optimistic, we have not made great wagons here. Psycho thinks that 20 days is more likely for each party/set of families to get there when you include breakdowns and other possible problems.

As far as the turn around and come back, if that is what you are asking about, we must do that since we do not have enough draft animals to haul all the wagons that we will need at once, also we won't have that many wagons made, 10 wagons a day is about the best that can be done with the number of workers (50).
Well, travel times will between 8 and 12 hours a day. Also there will have to be no people in the wagons...we'll be going at a walking pace...regular breaks...and so on. But we can transport as many people as possible right? Excluding goods, how many people can we transport at a time?

We should also distribute our council authority...

[jolo]

Please incorporate lots of people making the trek on boats. You will need lots of fish even before the first trek arrives if you want to avoid starving.

[Othniel]

NO, more than 12 days. What part of we do not have enough animals to pull the wagons have you missed.:confused:
I said 12 groups as that what six hundread people comes to for fifty famillies (and thus fifty wagons or so)

[Norbert]

Please incorporate lots of people making the trek on boats. You will need lots of fish even before the first trek arrives if you want to avoid starving.

An idea, but the 'boat people' (:p ) will have to wait until the main site is reached, otherwise they won't have any idea on where to land. Once a group has arrived at the main site, a signal fire could be lit to guide the 'boat people' in to a landing. But without knowing the hazards along the way, it could be dangerous.

[Othniel]

NO, more than 12 days. What part of we do not have enough animals to pull the wagons have you missed.:confused:
WHAT WE HAVE LEFT

559 Large Animals
562 Medium Animals
166 Small Animals

694 Large animals
694 Medium animals
252 Small animals

Large Animals

341 horses, 304 mares, 37 stallions.
67 donkeys, 59 female, 8 males
49 oxen, 44 female, 5 bulls
56 cattle. 50 female, 6 bulls
25 dairy cows, 20 cows, 5 bulls
20 llamas, 17 female, 3 male

Medium Animals

246 Pigs, 222 females, 24 males
200 Sheep 181 ewes, 19 rams
72 Goats 65 female, 9 male
44 Dogs 30 female, 14 male

Small Animals

96 Chickens 75 female, 21 male
53 Rabbits 36 female, 17 male
14 Cats 9 female, 5 male
3 Small Dogs 3 male


What here can be used?

[jolo]

An idea, but the 'boat people' (:p ) will have to wait until the main site is reached, otherwise they won't have any idea on where to land. Once a group has arrived at the main site, a signal fire could be lit to guide the 'boat people' in to a landing. But without knowing the hazards along the way, it could be dangerous.

They are supposed to be fishing until a harbor is set up in the north.

[Norbert]

WHAT WE HAVE LEFT

Large Animals

341 horses, 304 mares, 37 stallions.
67 donkeys, 59 female, 8 males
49 oxen, 44 female, 5 bulls
56 cattle. 50 female, 6 bulls
25 dairy cows, 20 cows, 5 bulls
20 llamas, 17 female, 3 male

What here can be used?

24 teams of oxen
11 teams of donkeys at 6 per wagon(?)
85 teams of horses at 4 per wagon
Llamas don't pull as I understand, and can only carry 80 lbs for short periods.

So, 120 wagons at one time.

[Othniel]

24 teams of oxen
11 teams of donkeys at 6 per wagon(?)
85 teams of horses at 4 per wagon
Llamas don't pull as I understand, and can only carry 80 lbs for short periods.

So, 120 wagons at one time.
Thats either 4 groups of thrity famillies, 3 groups of fourty famillies, or 2 and a half groups of 50, or any mix between them...

[Norbert]

Thats either 4 groups of thrity famillies, 3 groups of fourty famillies, or 2 and a half groups of 50, or any mix between them...

Or two groups of 60 families.

[Othniel]

Or two groups of 60 families.
I'd prefer the fourties range option in this one.

[SionEwig]

341 horses (1 is dead right?)
67 donkeys
49 oxen

gives us 85 wagons pulled by horses
11 pulled by donkeys (you will need 6 donkeys per team)
and 12 pulled by oxen

and 1 donkey and 1 oxen left over

so 108 wagons on the road at once, divided into 2 groups of 54

with them taking 9 to 20 days to get there and the animals should have a day of rest before turning them around to come back for the next load. I think that the return trip could be done in 5 days if you leave all the wagons at the Berkeley site except for maybe 1 to carry supplies for the teamsters you are looking at a round trip of 15 to 26 days.

So every 17 to 28 days you would move 108 families.

I can't make the numbers do anything else. Careful planning will need to be done on who is in that first 108 families cause they are really going to need to be very busy on getting the site ready for planting.

[Othniel]

And until they recalculate numbers, this is what we are working with in people;

TOTAL: 2782
MEN: 791
WOMEN: 754
CHILDREN: 1237

[Norbert]

In any case, it will take 4 round trips at present. If we are optimistic, and take 14 days there, 1 day to unload, and 6 days back, with 1 more day to load for the next group, 81 days to move everyone. Last group would arrive and be unloaded about Day 102, if we are optimistic. If however, the drop comes with half the draft animals and wagons, we could bring down the timetable considerably.

[Othniel]

341 horses (1 is dead right?)
67 donkeys
49 oxen

gives us 85 wagons pulled by horses
11 pulled by donkeys (you will need 6 donkeys per team)
and 12 pulled by oxen

and 1 donkey and 1 oxen left over

so 108 wagons on the road at once, divided into 2 groups of 54

with them taking 9 to 20 days to get there and the animals should have a day of rest before turning them around to come back for the next load. I think that the return trip could be done in 5 days if you leave all the wagons at the Berkeley site except for maybe 1 to carry supplies for the teamsters you are looking at a round trip of 15 to 26 days.

So every 17 to 28 days you would move 108 families.

I can't make the numbers do anything else. Careful planning will need to be done on who is in that first 108 families cause they are really going to need to be very busy on getting the site ready for planting.
108, hmm..divided into four groups and we get 27 famillies per group. With 3 groups ther are about 36 familles per group, and with two groups there are 54 famillies per group.

3 groups again sounds good.

[Norbert]

Damn, but sometimes I hate figuring Logistics!

[jolo]

Wasn't there supposed to be some kind of road building? That should make the trek faster, even if all kinds of problems are included.

Also, we could maker it easier by letting a few groups go with only bare necessities - food, private luggage, tent, tools, and so on. They can get their remaining stuff later.

Maybe a few shooners can be replaced by two-wheeled carts. Much easier, much faster, and more useful later.

[SionEwig]

In any case, it will take 4 round trips at present. If we are optimistic, and take 14 days there, 1 day to unload, and 6 days back, with 1 more day to load for the next group, 81 days to move everyone. Last group would arrive and be unloaded about Day 102, if we are optimistic. If however, the drop comes with half the draft animals and wagons, we could bring down the timetable considerably.

I actually think that 14 days is a more realistic expectation. But you don't have to consider the day to unload or load, except as using them to rest the animals. You leave the wagons in place, we will continue making them as long as needed, and as soon as they are made, that family can go on and load most of their stuff into it and only have a small amount they need to load when the animals get back.

And yes, I wasn't even considering the Drop, cause we don't know about that, but it will considerably cut down on the remaining trips up especially if it includes more draft animals.

[Othniel]

In any case, it will take 4 round trips at present. If we are optimistic, and take 14 days there, 1 day to unload, and 6 days back, with 1 more day to load for the next group, 81 days to move everyone. Last group would arrive and be unloaded about Day 102, if we are optimistic. If however, the drop comes with half the draft animals and wagons, we could bring down the timetable considerably.
At fifteen days per trip, that suggests first group leaves day 20, they'll get there day 35, group A2 and A3 get ther on day 36 and day 37, each leaving the day after. That means A1 heads back on day 36 (getting back quicker I asume but again let say 15 days) we see the three trains get back on day 51, 52, and 53..leaving again on day 52, 53 and 54.... unless we have to have the roads clear for the double back at which Train 1 can't head back until Train 3 gets there, and if too late in the day then train 1 can't leave until the next day, throwing these calculations off by two days.

[SionEwig]

108, hmm..divided into four groups and we get 27 famillies per group. With 3 groups ther are about 36 familles per group, and with two groups there are 54 famillies per group.

3 groups again sounds good.

Nope, stick with the 54 families in the groups. That way if there is trouble there will be more people available to deal with it.

Also, just thought of this, at least at the moment for our planning, the last group out should be the people making the wagons cause they may be orking making them up till the end:D .

[jolo]

If it takes that long, it might make sense to plant some more here in the area - especially the kind of plants that grow quickly or where the seeds don't last forever... The last treks can already transport some harvest (or new seeds) then.

[SionEwig]

Damn, but sometimes I hate figuring Logistics!

Hell no, logistics are fun and a necessary part of operations:D. So sayth a former Asst. S-3.

[Othniel]

Nope, stick with the 54 families in the groups. That way if there is trouble there will be more people available to deal with it.

Also, just thought of this, at least at the moment for our planning, the last group out should be the people making the wagons cause they may be orking making them up till the end:D .
That's what I said a few things go.

I'm thinking managable sizes here Sion. Fifty four famillies (women, childern, and the infirmed included) is hardly managable. 36 famillies is around the standard size of a wagon train.

[Ghost 88]

108, hmm..divided into four groups and we get 27 famillies per group. With 3 groups ther are about 36 familles per group, and with two groups there are 54 famillies per group.

3 groups again sounds good.
Me thinks we may be going at this from the wrong angle my friends. To me the problem is not animals or humans,but frieght and wagons. Now how much did we determine the wagons we are building would carry and how many will be done on day 20? most of the people can walk even 8 yr olds should be able to walk 5-8 miles a day and that will serve an additional purpose of tiring the out at days end. How much equipment do we need to move?

[Othniel]

Me thinks we may be going at this from the wrong angle my friends. To me the problem is not animals or humans,but frieght and wagons. Now how much did we determine the wagons we are building would carry and how many will be done on day 20? most of the people can walk even 8 yr olds should be able to walk 5-8 miles a day and that will serve an additional purpose of tiring the out at days end. How much equipment do we need to move?
Well, how much tonnage did we isot with us? How much have we lighten it since we got here?

[Norbert]

Wasn't there supposed to be some kind of road building? That should make the trek faster, even if all kinds of problems are included.

Also, we could maker it easier by letting a few groups go with only bare necessities - food, private luggage, tent, tools, and so on. They can get their remaining stuff later.

Maybe a few shooners can be replaced by two-wheeled carts. Much easier, much faster, and more useful later.

Unfortunatly, 95% of the people will have at best a crash course in handling a wagon and team. And the road at best is going to be a cleared path. And we haven't been figuring the number of people that will have to make the trek back with the wagons, dropping the number of workers at Ianopolis to prepare it. If some people were willing to leave a portion of there supplies, and double up on the first trip, we may have enough to start working. But, without the draft animals, we will have a harder time of it, since it will have to be literally done by hand.

I suppose, if the first task is to strictly just clear for the camp, and cut the trees to lengths and leave them in place until we have the draft animals to move them, and not bother with stumps at the main camp, it could be done.

If we can manage a frame to get a log off the ground to be cut into thick planks, it would be easier to move them.

[Ghost 88]

Hell no, logistics are fun and a necessary part of operations:D. So sayth a former Asst. S-3.
But logistics is S-4

[SionEwig]

Wasn't there supposed to be some kind of road building? That should make the trek faster, even if all kinds of problems are included.

Also, we could maker it easier by letting a few groups go with only bare necessities - food, private luggage, tent, tools, and so on. They can get their remaining stuff later.

Maybe a few shooners can be replaced by two-wheeled carts. Much easier, much faster, and more useful later.

No, no road building, trail marking yes, and some work on the banks of some waterways that need to be crossed, but I was taking both of those into accout already.

The second idea should be considered, but I don't think it would make that much of a difference since a lot of people only brought necessaties and very few luxuries.

No on the 2 wheeled carts, though worth bringing up as an idea, they won't be any faster on the road and their carrying capacity is much smaller.

[jolo]

Unfortunatly, 95% of the people will have at best a crash course in handling a wagon and team. And the road at best is going to be a cleared path. And we haven't been figuring the number of people that will have to make the trek back with the wagons, dropping the number of workers at Ianopolis to prepare it. If some people were willing to leave a portion of there supplies, and double up on the first trip, we may have enough to start working. But, without the draft animals, we will have a harder time of it, since it will have to be literally done by hand.

I suppose, if the first task is to strictly just clear for the camp, and cut the trees to lengths and leave them in place until we have the draft animals to move them, and not bother with stumps at the main camp, it could be done.

If we can manage a frame to get a log off the ground to be cut into thick planks, it would be easier to move them.

Take my boat trailer - it even has a winch. You just should be careful, it's difficult to repair metal atm... :) . And calculate a wagon of each trek to stay at the new site - including animals.

[Ghost 88]

Well, how much tonnage did we isot with us? How much have we lighten it since we got here?
I don't know something between 500 and 750 thousand I think. I'm just saying getting the people to Berkley is not the main problem.

[SionEwig]

But logistics is S-4

Yes, but all the others are there to give Operations what it needs or else they might as well not exist:D, there fore everyone else works for the S-3:D , (and my Battalions S-4 shop was full of putzes so we did most of that too).

[Othniel]

I don't know something between 500 and 750 thousand I think. I'm just saying getting the people to Berkley is not the main problem.
I know, I had posted that most people would be going at a walking pace. most of the early stuff going is needed equipment and amounts of food.

[Ghost 88]

Yes, but all the others are there to give Operations what it needs or else they might as well not exist:D, there fore everyone else works for the S-3:D , (and my Battalions S-4 shop was full of putzes so we did most of that too).
I'm sorry I'm a former Scout so I think S2 was more important.:rolleyes: ;) :D

[SionEwig]

Me thinks we may be going at this from the wrong angle my friends. To me the problem is not animals or humans,but frieght and wagons. Now how much did we determine the wagons we are building would carry and how many will be done on day 20? most of the people can walk even 8 yr olds should be able to walk 5-8 miles a day and that will serve an additional purpose of tiring the out at days end. How much equipment do we need to move?

I estimate that the wagons should be able to handle 2000 lbs as long as we are not talking stressing them out, but then they really shouldn't be stressed out even if empty:D

[Othniel]

We could have some groups go without wagons...

[Norbert]

As I was looking at it, I was getting a little depreesed on how long it would take, but you guys are brightening things up a bit. It'll get worked out yet!

[SionEwig]

I'm sorry I'm a former Scout so I think S2 was more important.:rolleyes: ;) :D

well of course S-2 is important, someone has to go out there and find out what the heck is going on so S-3 can make the plans.:D

Oh well, I'm down for the night. It's after 1 here and I've got to be back up at 6. Y'all keep working on this, I'll check back tomorrow evening.

[Othniel]

As I was looking at it, I was getting a little depreesed on how long it would take, but you guys are brightening things up a bit. It'll get worked out yet!
This is why I wanted multiple groups a day...

[Norbert]

I have to agree with Sion, I just noticed its after 2 here, so its time to move myself from this, and attack the problem tomorrow. Though I hope you fellers get it worked out by the time I log on again.:D

One last thought, though: Perhaps we could speed the trips to cover several days game time in one or two days, and then go back to the slower rate of 1 game day to two actual days.

[Ghost 88]

Right now worst case 375 wagon loads although I didn't get afix on how many wagons we'd have. leaving out any we might get in Berkley. I think this is what we should be planing from.

[Othniel]

Ok, we need to see this thing organized...as I said I prefer having three groups leave one right after anouther. Likewise many of these people don't even have to handle the wagons. We can send groups out just walking between times for intial conveys.

What will the wagoneers need? What will walkers need? How many guides will we put in each group? (after you've been to the main settlement you should qaulify as a guide.)What is the most important equipment going towards the main settlement? What equipment is needed most?

How many draft animals do we have? How many herd animals do we have? How should we postion them?

How many families will we transport at once, lowest and highest numbers please? How many wagoneers will there be?

How big are the wagons, how much can they haul? How many men can we spare to protect each group?

What terminology should we use in describing the trek process... I'm going to need a glossery soon...

Oh and if a mod could move the conversation we had last night into this thread I'd be greatful.

[SionEwig]

Oth, Norbet, and Ghost,

Will take a look at the stuff again and try to put some hard numbers to what we need answered. I am convinced that we can pull this Grand Trek off, even without the ASB supply drop that we don't know about (that will only help).

Glad this got put in it's own thread, thought that would have been a good idea after I signed off last night (this morning:confused:). Also, realized that 3 of us in the discussion are on the 2nd scouting trip. I can see us working this out while we are waiting for Flocc, Dr. What, and Leo to finish making nice in the native village.

[GBW]

That's strange... I don't remember starting this thread... :eek: ;)

[Othniel]

That's strange... I don't remember starting this thread... :eek: ;)
Its a cuttoff. Basically a mass transition of information due to my request.:D

[Norbert]

Ward has a 400lb wagon frame, probably 7200 lb maximum capacity. Needs to have a box built on it. Has regular tires on it, also.

[Othniel]

Oth, Norbet, and Ghost,

Will take a look at the stuff again and try to put some hard numbers to what we need answered. I am convinced that we can pull this Grand Trek off, even without the ASB supply drop that we don't know about (that will only help).

Glad this got put in it's own thread, thought that would have been a good idea after I signed off last night (this morning:confused:). Also, realized that 3 of us in the discussion are on the 2nd scouting trip. I can see us working this out while we are waiting for Flocc, Dr. What, and Leo to finish making nice in the native village.
We really do need some hard numbers. Has anybody recalculated the population going up with us, as well as goods?

[Othniel]

Ok, we need to see this thing organized...as I said I prefer having three groups leave one right after anouther. Likewise many of these people don't even have to handle the wagons. We can send groups out just walking between times for intial conveys.

What will the wagoneers need? What will walkers need? How many guides will we put in each group? (after you've been to the main settlement you should qaulify as a guide.)What is the most important equipment going towards the main settlement? What equipment is needed most?

How many draft animals do we have? How many herd animals do we have? How should we postion them?

How many families will we transport at once, lowest and highest numbers please? How many wagoneers will there be?

How big are the wagons, how much can they haul? How many men can we spare to protect each group?

What terminology should we use in describing the trek process... I'm going to need a glossery soon...

Oh and if a mod could move the conversation we had last night into this thread I'd be greatful.
And someone please anwser all these questions.

[SionEwig]

We really do need some hard numbers. Has anybody recalculated the population going up with us, as well as goods?

Not to my knowledge, still going off the other numbers after that one poll. Don't worry about the mass of the goods, not much of a problem there, the bulk of some things may cause a little more trouble.

[SionEwig]

And someone please anwser all these questions.

I'm still working on it, so get your knickers out of a twist, some of us have families that like a little attention every now and then.:D

[Othniel]

Not to my knowledge, still going off the other numbers after that one poll. Don't worry about the mass of the goods, not much of a problem there, the bulk of some things may cause a little more trouble.
We don't even need to transport everyone with wagons. How many groups can we have on the road at once? Having two or three wagon teams, and then a good portion of workers on foot, how does that translate into travel time and set up?

[Othniel]

I'm still working on it, so get your knickers out of a twist, some of us have families that like a little attention every now and then.:D
Its been 19 hours! :p You are here now, so I know you'll have that anwsered soon.

[SionEwig]

Its been 19 hours! :p You are here now, so I know you'll have that anwsered soon.

LOL:D , and it's going to be a few more, expect better answers (based on the first poll results) late tonight or early tomorrow.

TTFN

[SionEwig]

I'm busy working on a movement plan but need some more information that I can't find at the moment amongst the 3 pages of different threads for this game (wow that is a lot for a game!).

Anyway, the info i need at the moment is how many family groups are going where. I know we started with 694 members that were ISOTed. I'm counted each MEMBER plus dependents as a family unit. How many MEMBERS/family groups are staying at the Apartment and how many will be taking the Trek north?

I know that in the last numbers there were -

2782 people total going north, of which -

791 - men
754 - women
1237 - children.

But this is obviously not the division of family groups.

So any help here would be appreciated.

[Psychomeltdown]

Most of the info you're looking for is in the Statistics Thread.

Darkest posted 2780 people in the Main Group, (was 2783, but 3 were killed)

557 members is what I'm assuming are left at the Main Camp.

[Ghost 88]

Most of the info you're looking for is in the Statistics Thread.

Darkest posted 2780 people in the Main Group, (was 2783, but 3 were killed)

557 members is what I'm assuming are left at the Main Camp.
Rommy killed his wife and a little girl. Who was the third?

[Glen]

There was a sorta suicide, but he said we could ignore it...

As for those numbers going, they need to be recalculated due to more people now opting to go to the main settlement site.

[SionEwig]

There was a sorta suicide, but he said we could ignore it...

As for those numbers going, they need to be recalculated due to more people now opting to go to the main settlement site.

well, then someone needs to do that calculation and post those numbers cause otherwise no real planning on the Trek can be done.

[SionEwig]

Most of the info you're looking for is in the Statistics Thread.

Darkest posted 2780 people in the Main Group, (was 2783, but 3 were killed)

557 members is what I'm assuming are left at the Main Camp.

Thanks for the numbers Psycho. I had been looking in the Statistics Thread but couldn't find the info I was looking for. Now if my brain had been working, I would have simply counted up the number of large animals thaat you had been posting and that would have given the answer, D'oh.:eek:

[Psychomeltdown]

well, then someone needs to do that calculation and post those numbers cause otherwise no real planning on the Trek can be done.
Well, we don't know how many more are leaving Fort Ian Settlement an joining us. This is pretty much the first I've heard about it.

if so,t hen that'll mean more animals, more equipment, more people...

[Othniel]

Sion, you got those calculations done?

[SionEwig]

Sion, you got those calculations done?

Yes, had them done on Monday, but it's all moot now.

[SionEwig]

Here is the general timeline for the Grand Trek and associated activities. Note that this is all planned with NO knowledge or consideration of any resupply, though it can still be partially applicable depending on when the resupply happens. It is also based on what I believe to be a reasonable 'Best Time' case. There is always the possibility that time could be shaved off due to better speed or time added on due to delays. The number of Convoys could be decreased by limiting the amount of supplies each family group takes, but the time would probably increase on each Convoys trips and we would still be moving supplies months later.

You will also need to refer to the next post which will detail the composition of the different elements in the Grand Trek.

Day 7 - Scouting/Survey Party departs Fort Ian.

Day 10 - Scouting/Survey Party arrives Berkeley site (1 day late)

Day 11-15 - work at site and in area as per plan (cut 1 day short)

Day 16 - Scouting/Survey Party departs Berkeley site to return

Day 18 - Scouting/Survey Party arrives back at Fort Ian (late afternoon)

Day 19 - Advance Party departs Fort Ian to prepare trail for convoys and begin site preparation. See next post for composition.

Day 20 - Convoy 1 departs Fort Ian. See next post for composition.

Day 21 - Convoy 2 departs Fort Ian.

Day 25 - Advance Party arrives Berkeley site to begin work.

Day 28 - Convoy 1 arrives Berkeley site.

Day 29 - Convoy 2 arrives Berkeley site.

Day 30 - Draft Animal Team 1 (DAT) departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 31 - DAT 2 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 33 - DAT 1 arrives Fort Ian

Day 34 - DAT 2 arrives Fort Ian

Day 35 - Convoy 3 departs Fort Ian

Day 36 - Convoy 4 departs Fort Ian

Day 43 - Convoy 3 arrives Berkeley site

Day 44 - Convoy 4 arrives Berkeley site

Day 45 - DAT 3 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 46 - DAT 4 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 48 - DAT 3 arrives Fort Ian

Day 49 - DAT 4 arrives Fort Ian

Day 50 - Convoy 5 departs Fort Ian

Day 51 - Convoy 6 departs Fort Ian

Day 58 - Convoy 5 arrives Berkeley site

Day 59 - Convoy 6 arrives Berkeley site

Day 60 - DAT 5 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 61 - DAT 6 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 63 - DAT 5 arrives Fort Ian

Day 64 - DAT 6 arrives Fort Ian

Day 65 - Convoy 7 departs Fort Ian

Day 66 - Convoy 8 departs Fort Ian

Day 73 - Convoy 7 arrives Berkeley site

Day 74 - Convoy 8 arrives Berkeley site

Day 75 - DAT 7 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 76 - DAT 8 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 78 - DAT 7 arrives Fort Ian

Day 79 - DAT 8 arrives Fort Ian

Day 80 - Convoy 9 departs Fort Ian

Day 81 - Convoy 10 departs Fort Ian

Day 88 - Convoy 9 arrives Berkeley site

Day 89 - Convoy 10 arrives Berkeley site - FINISHED

[Psychomeltdown]

I think we need to add a bit more time between when the Advance Party leaves and when Convoy 1 leaves, mainly because, the AP will basically be trail blazing. Whereas the Scouting team didn't really have to worry about it and followed a course that was easier for their small group, these guys will have to make one that is easier for wagons carrying a ton of equipment.

I think 5 days head start would be good enough, better than having the whole convoy system bottle up when the Advance Team hits a tough spot that takes them a while to smooth out. There's pretty much rivers every few miles and who knows what the depths or size of them (Guess that's gonna have to be thought up by you kids)

4 days for the Draft Teams to get from Berkley to Fort Ian. This is because even though they won't be carrying loads, they'll still have to eat and drink and rest. We can't push the Draft Animals too hard, or we risk injuring them to a point where their only use if food. Remember we don't have any qualified vets in our group.

With all these convoys and DATs going back and forth, they'll be pretty much stripping the Trail of anything edible for the a mile or so on each side. And the animals still have to graze a minimum of an hour a day, the less grass there is on the trail, the further they'll have to go to graze. The grass at this time is not fast growing nor very nutritional, therefore the need a lot more of it, meaning more time grazing on a daily basis.

Then there are the sheep and pigs. The pigs are definitely are going to be a friggin' hassle to move, 242 surly creatures being pushed 40 plus miles. Good luck Dominus. The sheep will be fairly easy, so will the cattle, but we'll still need more people than we have now to keep watch on them when on the trail.

I'm guessing the Herders are pretty much going to be handling the animals and the teams that are going North. At the moment we have all together about 70 men and women taking care of all the animals. We need about 100 when they're doing nothing but eating/working. We'll need probably a


I suggest a more concentrated training program on learning to be a teamster. Even though it's only handling 2 horses or so, it's still a thing you've got to learn. Plus my guess is we'll be recycling the ones heading out on the Convoys (We'll still need more due to the fact that they'll be logging, hauling, etc at Berkley) since we'll need experienced teamsters hauling the stuff.

Crap. We've only got about 27 days of food now... and this will take almost 70 days to complete. :eek: We need an extra 364000 lbs of food just to get this thing completed...

[Othniel]

Time should get shorter as we do this more often...we made it there in a bit more than two days on foot, as we devolp the paths and the wagons get better, well we should be able to do that route at a quicker pace...

[Psychomeltdown]

Time should get shorter as we do this more often...we made it there in a bit more than two days on foot, as we devolp the paths and the wagons get better, well we should be able to do that route at a quicker pace...
Path cleared, we can make it in probably a week with Convoy 9 and 10, but I'm figuring these will be small convoys, since most of the laborers will be going in the first couple of waves.

Women and children mainly, hopefully...

Animals still can't be pushed that hard, 10 plus miles a day unloaded, 6 or so loaded. And at least two days rest when they get to Berkley and one when they get to Fort Ian. mainly grazing and watering.

[SionEwig]

I think we need to add a bit more time between when the Advance Party leaves and when Convoy 1 leaves, mainly because, the AP will basically be trail blazing. Whereas the Scouting team didn't really have to worry about it and followed a course that was easier for their small group, these guys will have to make one that is easier for wagons carrying a ton of equipment.

I think 5 days head start would be good enough, better than having the whole convoy system bottle up when the Advance Team hits a tough spot that takes them a while to smooth out. There's pretty much rivers every few miles and who knows what the depths or size of them (Guess that's gonna have to be thought up by you kids)

More time could easily be added and I agree that an extra day or two would be good, but some people have wanted Convoy 1 to leave the day after the Scouts return (the same day as the Advance Party leaves).

One of the jobs of the Scouting Team is to do trail blazing on their return trip, but not Trail Clearing. Scout Team will be checking water depths, bank heights, etc.

4 days for the Draft Teams to get from Berkley to Fort Ian. This is because even though they won't be carrying loads, they'll still have to eat and drink and rest. We can't push the Draft Animals too hard, or we risk injuring them to a point where their only use if food. Remember we don't have any qualified vets in our group.

Four days is what I have the DATs doing on the return trip from Berkeley to Fort Ian. And they probably will be carrying a small load, but more like supplies for the people on the DATs (60 btw in my plan) so it will be minimal.

With all these convoys and DATs going back and forth, they'll be pretty much stripping the Trail of anything edible for the a mile or so on each side. And the animals still have to graze a minimum of an hour a day, the less grass there is on the trail, the further they'll have to go to graze. The grass at this time is not fast growing nor very nutritional, therefore the need a lot more of it, meaning more time grazing on a daily basis.

You are correct here, thus my having best case movement as 5 miles per day.

Then there are the sheep and pigs. The pigs are definitely are going to be a friggin' hassle to move, 242 surly creatures being pushed 40 plus miles. Good luck Dominus. The sheep will be fairly easy, so will the cattle, but we'll still need more people than we have now to keep watch on them when on the trail.

The sheep no big deal, but the pigs....haven't figured a good way out yet on them. Wait for full details on moving the herds in the post with the composition of the Convoys, etc. Hint, think how the settlers moved their non draft animals.

I'm guessing the Herders are pretty much going to be handling the animals and the teams that are going North. At the moment we have all together about 70 men and women taking care of all the animals. We need about 100 when they're doing nothing but eating/working. We'll need probably a

Nope, wrong here, just wait. Though they will probably be put to use on moving the pigs.


I suggest a more concentrated training program on learning to be a teamster. Even though it's only handling 2 horses or so, it's still a thing you've got to learn. Plus my guess is we'll be recycling the ones heading out on the Convoys (We'll still need more due to the fact that they'll be logging, hauling, etc at Berkley) since we'll need experienced teamsters hauling the stuff.

Very much so, we need lots more trained, get working on it now, but for the most part each family will drive and handle their own wagon. Draft teams will be 4 oxen or horse, or 6 donkeys. Need this many to move the weight. The draft animals (at this time without the resupply) will be in constant use until the Trek is done.

Crap. We've only got about 27 days of food now... and this will take almost 70 days to complete. :eek: We need an extra 364000 lbs of food just to get this thing completed...

70 days by my schedule, so if you add more days to the Advance Team....

Thus you see why Glen and several others have had heart attacks when I first brought this information up.

Remember, this does not include any planning for changes that the resupply will bring, which will help things some, but I haven't even started working on that plan.

[Norbert]

Sion, I figure I'll need about 250 lbs for tools for the advance lumber party, plus another 150-250 lbs for the work on the route. Then food sufficient for the crews, tents, etc.

We can probably get away with two teams of draft animals for the initial pahse of logging, until more of our people are there.

[SionEwig]

Time should get shorter as we do this more often...we made it there in a bit more than two days on foot, as we devolp the paths and the wagons get better, well we should be able to do that route at a quicker pace...

We should be able to cut some time. Ball park figures were 6 miles a day for Convoys 5, 6, 7, 8, (which will cut it to 7 1/2 days) and 7 miles a day for Convoy 9 and 10 (which will cut it to 6 1/2 days).

No, the Scout/Survey team is mounted, at least that is my understanding from reading what people have posted concerning it. And it still took us 3 days of actual travel time plus the day at the village. (Left Day 7, arrived Day 10. Let's see 7, 9, 10 were travel days, so that's 3 days).

Not counting the wagons the ASBs will provide with the resupply, the wagons we are making will not get any better, not until we get a sithy set up and have time to season the wood.

[SionEwig]

Sion, I figure I'll need about 250 lbs for tools for the advance lumber party, plus another 150-250 lbs for the work on the route. Then food sufficient for the crews, tents, etc.

No problem, you will get the 20 llamas, a single mule drawn cart (500 lbs), and a single ox drawn cart (750 lbs ?). Plus people can do some carrying them selves.

[Norbert]

No problem, you will get the 20 llamas, a single mule drawn cart (500 lbs), and a single ox drawn cart (750 lbs ?). Plus people can do some carrying them selves.

Good. My understanding of the Llama is that they can carry about 80 lbs, though not for more than a few miles. With the pace we are setting, it shouldn't be a problem.

Also figured on everyone carrying a pack anyway. Just let me know how many of the loggers are going first trip.

[SionEwig]

Good. My understanding of the Llama is that they can carry about 80 lbs, though not for more than a few miles. With the pace we are setting, it shouldn't be a problem.

Also figured on everyone carrying a pack anyway. Just let me know how many of the loggers are going first trip.

Wow, that's more than I thought the llamas could carry, but that's even better.

Don't forget, when the Advance Party gets there, they can easily convert the 2 - one axel carts to log haulers by removing the bed.

I have planned 40 workers in the Advance Party, plus either 30 or 15 rangers (and I am leaning toward 30). How many of those workers are loggers is up to you, please leave some at Fort Ian though to keep supplying timber for more wagons (at this point we will need 558 - no problem to keep making them at now 10 per day, if there is enough raw materials supplied).

[Norbert]

Wow, that's more than I thought the llamas could carry, but that's even better.

Don't forget, when the Advance Party gets there, they can easily convert the 2 - one axel carts to log haulers by removing the bed.

I have planned 40 workers in the Advance Party, plus either 30 or 15 rangers (and I am leaning toward 30). How many of those workers are loggers is up to you, please leave some at Fort Ian though to keep supplying timber for more wagons (at this point we will need 558 - no problem to keep making them at now 10 per day, if there is enough raw materials supplied).

Llama info I got watching a program on searching for the Incas yet to be found 'Golden City'. If I have 20 cutting, with the others hauling, it should not be a problem. We can also dig the first latrines, and mark the site for camp. 3000 feet of paracord may be handy for that!:D

On the trip up, the cutters and myself can double at improving banks, etc. for crossings. Won't be much different than what I did growing up.

There are enough loggers with some experience that keeping the camp and wagon 'smiths' supplied shouldn't be a problem. I have a couple people (PC) that having a foreman back at camp Ian won't be a problem.

I am probably getting back into the bes shape I've been in in 15 years!:D

[Gerard-ABC]

I'm currently at 10 new wagons per day.

If you give me more people, then I'll give you more wagons.

If you need help out at the new place, then I can leave my managers workign with the crews here, and go out there with the 1st group.

That days break due to the rain / dance has helped my people at lot, morale is up, and we might get to 11 wagons a day for a few days.


Regards,
Gerard

[SionEwig]

I'm currently at 10 new wagons per day.

If you give me more people, then I'll give you more wagons.

If you need help out at the new place, then I can leave my managers workign with the crews here, and go out there with the 1st group.

That days break due to the rain / dance has helped my people at lot, morale is up, and we might get to 11 wagons a day for a few days.


Regards,
Gerard

10 a day is sufficient for our needs even losing the days roduction on Day 9, so don't waste more people on it.

[Norbert]

Ok, how many members are going to make the trek? I am working on some things for the overall community, and would really like to know.

[Gerard-ABC]

I'll be going on the trek to the new place, naturally, Sophie will be with me. No kids <g>

Regards,
Gerard

[SionEwig]

Ok, how many members are going to make the trek? I am working on some things for the overall community, and would really like to know.

At the current time I am working on the number given much earlier of 558 members going on the trek (note, I use members/families interchangably). This number was derived from the number of LARGE animals that would be available to the Berkeley site.

[Glen]

The number should be 611 members ie families, or about 88%.

I'm using the numbers from the response in the Appeal to the Community poll.

Remember, when doing the numbers, that given the fact that the ASBs 'fixed' everyone's health, we now have our entire adult community, except those that have been injured since ISOT, in good health, which means that they could all potentially walk there, which would free up a lot of cargo space.

The children would need to ride, and you would need a few to ride with them. And of course the wagons will need drivers.

But we're actually in the best shape as a community to do a move like this now, while our health has been ASBized. That won't last forever.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Sorry I haven't been around, Christmas and such, and just got my wisdom teeth out, so I haven't had much time for posting, but here I am, back and semi-healthy.

[SionEwig]

The number should be 611 members ie families, or about 88%.

I'm using the numbers from the response in the Appeal to the Community poll.

Then someone is going to need to come up with the new numbers of animals because that is going to make a large difference in calculations. Also, if you are using 88% of the ORIGINAL number of members that were ISOTed, then your total is off. You should be using the number of members who were left after the Conquistadors and first Homesteaders left. Which would mean that there were some additional people who later left to head out on their own.

Remember, when doing the numbers, that given the fact that the ASBs 'fixed' everyone's health, we now have our entire adult community, except those that have been injured since ISOT, in good health, which means that they could all potentially walk there, which would free up a lot of cargo space.

I had already planned the majority to walk so they were not even considered as far as cargo space was concerned.

The children would need to ride, and you would need a few to ride with them. And of course the wagons will need drivers.

I had planned for even the children to walk as much as possible, as far as drivers go, well the plan was for almost 1 wagon per family so almost every family would drive their own wagon. (Out of 54 wagons in each convoy - using the 558 numbers - 4 families would be sharing 2 wagons, so 54 wagons, 56 families)

But we're actually in the best shape as a community to do a move like this now, while our health has been ASBized. That won't last forever.

You are correct, get me the new numbers and I'll modify things. Otherwise do it yourself.

[Glen]

42 conquistadors (20 horses, 1 buffalo)

11 conquistadors that set off by themselves (5 large animals)

72 people that just abandon the group straight off. (about 16 riding animals)

Net loss: 125 people (mostly adults, but some children), their loads, and 42 riding animals (probably horses).

You want to set this as a static, end-percentage? I'll lock the post if you guys agree.

That was the last word on the conquistadors I could find.

So, given the numbers, it seems that 42 members/families left initially for parts unknown. Sorry, I didn't include these before, as you noted.

So, 694-42=652. About 88% of that would be 574. Maybe for the sake of easy math, round up to 575?

[SionEwig]

That was the last word on the conquistadors I could find.

So, given the numbers, it seems that 42 members/families left initially for parts unknown. Sorry, I didn't include these before, as you noted.

So, 694-42=652. About 88% of that would be 574. Maybe for the sake of easy math, round up to 575?

That helps, will see how well this fits with previous totals (which I have begun to think were flawed), still need animal numbers.

[Glen]

That helps, will see how well this fits with previous totals (which I have begun to think were flawed), still need animal numbers.

We should have the same number of large animals as we have members, IIRC. As to the breakdown on type, I'd ask Ward and Psychomeltdown to give their impressions.

[SionEwig]

We should have the same number of large animals as we have members, IIRC. As to the breakdown on type, I'd ask Ward and Psychomeltdown to give their impressions.

Yup, right there, and the same for medium animals also (both were 1 per member). The problem is that not all the numbers add up and match.

I think that most of the problems stem from a decision (not that I disagree with it) concerning the way the original Conquistadors and homesteaders would be counted rather than going with percentages from the original poll. While some adjustments were made using the newer numbers, other things (like the total number of people based on average number of people per family from another poll) were not adjusted. And in at least one spot, someone miscalculated the total number by using 4.09 people per family instead of 4.99 people per family. Also as many people noted, a large amount of the ethnic and religion statistical data is flawed, mostly due to some people not answering (myself included here).

About the only true absolute that we have is that there were 694 Members ISOTed, and each was able to bring 1 large animal and 1 medium animal. I am working on some numbers from various posts, polls, etc., that while they may not end up being absolutely correct as far as original polling and statistics derived from those polls, are close enough to what we have been using that I recommend that we adopt them as our official numbers and just get on with it. Otherwise, someone will have to go back and refigure almost everything. These numbers will be posted in a new thread to try and keep stuff more orderly.

Hopefully I will get these posted tonight, but my internet connection has been very flakey this past week and I'm lucky to stay online more than a couple minutes at a time.

[Psychomeltdown]

We should have the same number of large animals as we have members, IIRC. As to the breakdown on type, I'd ask Ward and Psychomeltdown to give their impressions.
It made up a list of animals and people in the Statistics Thread - Animals (http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=385898&postcount=31) Though some of it had to be changed around and the Statistics Thread - People. (http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=385613&postcount=29)

Jolo brought a Goat and a horse, so 1 goat for Fort Ian.
someone brought a Jack Mule, which I kept forgetting to add.

The Grand Trek group is now 2781, 2 dead, 1 held in 'jail".

And I think the number of members left came out to 558.

17 Conquistadors
29 Homesteaders (Gen. Paul it seems is one now)
90 Fort Ianites.

558 members left going on the Grand Trek.

[Norbert]

Wow, that's more than I thought the llamas could carry, but that's even better.

Don't forget, when the Advance Party gets there, they can easily convert the 2 - one axel carts to log haulers by removing the bed.

I have planned 40 workers in the Advance Party, plus either 30 or 15 rangers (and I am leaning toward 30). How many of those workers are loggers is up to you, please leave some at Fort Ian though to keep supplying timber for more wagons (at this point we will need 558 - no problem to keep making them at now 10 per day, if there is enough raw materials supplied).

Give me 25 for loggers, and I will be working along with them. Also, as I prefer to try to lead by example, the loggers can double for workers improving the trail on the way.

[SionEwig]

Some of this is a repost (the timeline) and the rest isn't. The Convoy composition is very bare bones, when more information is needed I will flesh it out but this should give the basics.

OK, here is the basic timeline for it using all of the Fort Ian draft animals and really cramming as much equipment as possible on each wagon.

Day 7 - Scouting/Survey Party departs Fort Ian.

Day 10 - Scouting/Survey Party arrives Berkeley site (1 day late)

Day 11-15 - work at site and in area as per plan (cut 1 day short)

Day 16 - Scouting/Survey Party departs Berkeley site to return

Day 18 - Scouting/Survey Party arrives back at Fort Ian (late afternoon)

Day 19 - Advance Party departs Fort Ian to prepare trail for convoys and begin site preparation. See next post for composition.

Day 20 - Convoy 1 departs Fort Ian. See next post for composition.

Day 21 - Convoy 2 departs Fort Ian.

Day 25 - Advance Party arrives Berkeley site to begin work.

Day 28 - Convoy 1 arrives Berkeley site.

Day 29 - Convoy 2 arrives Berkeley site.

Day 30 - Draft Animal Team 1 (DAT) departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 31 - DAT 2 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 33 - DAT 1 arrives Fort Ian

Day 34 - DAT 2 arrives Fort Ian

Day 35 - Convoy 3 departs Fort Ian

Day 36 - Convoy 4 departs Fort Ian

Day 43 - Convoy 3 arrives Berkeley site

Day 44 - Convoy 4 arrives Berkeley site

Day 45 - DAT 3 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 46 - DAT 4 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 48 - DAT 3 arrives Fort Ian

Day 49 - DAT 4 arrives Fort Ian

Day 50 - Convoy 5 departs Fort Ian

Day 51 - Convoy 6 departs Fort Ian

Day 58 - Convoy 5 arrives Berkeley site

Day 59 - Convoy 6 arrives Berkeley site

Day 60 - DAT 5 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 61 - DAT 6 departs Berkeley destination Fort Ian

Day 63 - DAT 5 arrives Fort Ian

Day 64 - DAT 6 arrives Fort Ian

Day 65 - Convoy 7 departs Fort Ian

Day 66 - Convoy 8 departs Fort Ian

Day 73 - Convoy 7 arrives Berkeley site

Day 74 - Convoy 8 arrives Berkeley site

And of course there will still need to be a small group to return the Fort Ian animals to them and get back to us.

Now, here are the bare bones composition of each Convoy. The cramming of each wagon is based on them having a capacity of 1750 lbs (actually 2000 but 250 is taken with 2 spare wheels and 1 spare axel each, which is half the number of what Gerard was specifying). Also, this ensures that the draft animals are not too worn out and the same for the people.

First, the animal numbers (Berkeley+Fort Ian)
horses - 352+32=96 wagons hauled
donkeys - 66+6=12 wagons hauled
oxen - 66+6=18 wagons hauled

total of 126 wagons hauled at a time.

We will be moving 574 Members/Families (2864 people).

Convoy 1 - 63 wagons hauling 68 Members/Families
Convoy 2 - 63 wagons hauling 68

Convoy 3 - 63 wagons hauling 73
Convoy 4 - 63 wagons hauling 73

Convoy 5 - 63 wagons hauling 73
Convoy 6 - 63 wagons hauling 73

Convoy 7 - 63 wagons hauling 73
Convoy 8 - 63 wagons hauling 73

And it is done except for the return of the Fort Ian animals.

[Gerard-ABC]

Sion,

A quick formula that I'm using....

No. of wagons produced, and available for the trek....

= 10 x ( Day No. - 6 )

Ex. Day = 12, No. of wagons = ( 12 - 6 ) x 10 = 60
Ex. Day = 19, No. of wagons = ( 19 - 6 ) x 10 = 130

Assume that the 10 wagons are complete by 6 or 7pm in the evening of any day.


I'm excluding the 10 wagons that we're already using for water distribution, and missed days due to weather / planning / training , etc etc


Regards,
Gerard

[Ward]

Just something I tought of should we start making Bread for people to have to eat on the great trek north . Plus should we also start making 1/2 the milk over into butter also . Also how about some of the Fish should we start smoking 1/2 of it for the trek north .

This way they people will not have to stop every day and hunt for food .

[Norbert]

Just something I tought of should we start making Bread for people to have to eat on the great trek north . Plus should we also start making 1/2 the milk over into butter also . Also how about some of the Fish should we start smoking 1/2 of it for the trek north .

This way they people will not have to stop every day and hunt for food .

I think these ideas are good enough to suggest there implemetation, also.