The Jolo Events Poll

[Glen]

This is an editted version of the poll initially proposed by jolo. I have modified it a bit. The responses to this poll will be taken into account for any retconning of jolo's posts. Note, I have removed the money introduction option to make room for a none of the above, because a monetary system is being implemented by the entire community under the auspices of the council, so this is happening in a larger context (if a bit slower).

Made in the believe we shouldn't retcon too much.

On the other hand realizing that much of what I posted is considered by many not to have happened anyways.

Personally, I'd prefer to have most of that have happened, and being adapted for a more agreeable cooperation in the next few days. But let's see what you guys think.

[Glen]

I think the bits with the fishing camps will have happened, though the one on the creek is indistinguishable from the main community, and the one on the bay is in fact THE ONE WE ARE SENDING!

A small market is likely, doing some bartering. The Council will within several days start to provide some assistance with keeping records of transactions there, in connection with our census and inventory initiative (we need to know who has what, in case of an emergency request).

The native stuff is just not likely in the first week, IMO.

As for the rest, I think they are possible if enough people choose to stay here, but I think that less will, to a point that even those who were thinking about it may change their minds and come along with the main settlement. In any event, it doesn't make much sense for them to elect a mayor until they know who is really committed to staying or not (which won't happen until the move to the main settlement site is finished, as people might jump on board).

A dam is a good likelihood, just not this fast.

[jolo]

I think the bits with the fishing camps will have happened, though the one on the creek is indistinguishable from the main community, and the one on the bay is in fact THE ONE WE ARE SENDING!

A small market is likely, doing some bartering. The Council will within several days start to provide some assistance with keeping records of transactions there, in connection with our census and inventory initiative (we need to know who has what, in case of an emergency request).

The native stuff is just not likely in the first week, IMO.

As for the rest, I think they are possible if enough people choose to stay here, but I think that less will, to a point that even those who were thinking about it may change their minds and come along with the main settlement. In any event, it doesn't make much sense for them to elect a mayor until they know who is really committed to staying or not (which won't happen until the move to the main settlement site is finished, as people might jump on board).

A dam is a good likelihood, just not this fast.

Barter is unrealistic. The people will quickly find some form of currency if none is organized, illegally if necessary - ammunition, cigarettes, or whatever. Then we'll have lots of difficulties to introduce our currency - at least the same as if the currency is introduced quickly. I'd expect a black market on the second day already, as the people realise in panic what they forgot.

I mean a fishing camp in the southern Bay. As I understood, the first ones arriving in Berkeley wanted to build one up there. That should be differentiated.

People won't only trade at a market - barter would nearly never be found there, it would happen on a friendship level in and around the tents.

If there is no quick agreement with the Amerindians in the area, there's war with them - they don't have any other possibility, as we quickly drain their food ressources. Therefore, people who get in such situations would either quickly try to keep such hostilities from happnening, or they'd risk it - both has happened, I prefer the civilized approach. When I'm in a foreign country where I don't know the language and where they don't know any of my languages, I also usually can make everything important clear - within hours. The same with most people I know.

People make decisions and change them later - but inbetween, they won't act as if they didn't know what they do. It's unrealistic for them to wait with such decisions until the others left. So a mayor would be very likely to happen, except if any improvised leadership of the whole community tried to keep that from happening - which would also need a reason imo.

The timing put up is also nonsense - it'll take several weeks until the last main settlers are gone, and everything in the poll will be done by then.

Glen, I believe you could have waited with the poll until my answer to your email arrived.

[Bulgaroktonos]

There is no way that we are going ot have an agreement with the Natives. We don't even speak a similar language between us. Any "agreement" we come to is going to be pointless.

I'll have to put my foot down and say that it's nonsense and not going to happen.

The natives are going to be far too afraid of us for some time yet before they start a "war" with us.

[jolo]

There is no way that we are going ot have an agreement with the Natives. We don't even speak a similar language between us. Any "agreement" we come to is going to be pointless.

I'll have to put my foot down and say that it's nonsense and not going to happen.

The natives are going to be far too afraid of us for some time yet before they start a "war" with us.

It's possible they'd be very afraid - especially if they see our numbers and begin to understand our weapons. Though that has never kept some factions of them to try it on their own - afaik, there have been quite a few agressions even against superior forces IOTL. Other factions might flee us instead to avoid starvation.

Also, I'm not talking about a contract which would stand up to our legal standards. Just some kind of understanding over who lives and gets food where, to avoid clashes.

As we know history I can't imagine we'd wait for hostilities to happen - At least I personally would try to get into some kind of talks with the surrounding people when I'm stranded in their territory. The majority appears to be against this, though - I don't know why.

I'm even willing to accept any result of the poll for a retcon - I just bugs me when moderators with their authority influence the results.

[SionEwig]

Barter is unrealistic. The people will quickly find some form of currency if none is organized, illegally if necessary - ammunition, cigarettes, or whatever. Then we'll have lots of difficulties to introduce our currency - at least the same as if the currency is introduced quickly. I'd expect a black market on the second day already, as the people realise in panic what they forgot.

Sorry dude, barter is very realistic, especially over the short term. People do swapping all the time. And I have never figured out why you insist on referring to a "Black Market." Nothing has been made illegal, nothing is being taxed, so no "Black Market" in the traditional sense.

I mean a fishing camp in the southern Bay. As I understood, the first ones arriving in Berkeley wanted to build one up there. That should be differentiated.

People won't only trade at a market - barter would nearly never be found there, it would happen on a friendship level in and around the tents.

People will most certainly trade in markets, it happens all the time between the venders at swap meets/flea markets, and I have seen non-venders doing the same. Swapping was more common than not at the small rural markets where I was working in South America. Yes, it would also be around the tents, but also in the market.

If there is no quick agreement with the Amerindians in the area, there's war with them - they don't have any other possibility, as we quickly drain their food ressources. Therefore, people who get in such situations would either quickly try to keep such hostilities from happnening, or they'd risk it - both has happened, I prefer the civilized approach. When I'm in a foreign country where I don't know the language and where they don't know any of my languages, I also usually can make everything important clear - within hours. The same with most people I know.

Problems with this, we just found where one village was and it is about 10 or so miles away to the north. The other tribe we have had contact with, at least we hope they are another tribe, is another 20 or so miles further north and they were hostile from the beginning.

Yes, this needs to be done somehow, but we have some serious language and cultural barriers to get past. It ain't gonna happen today.

As has been normal throughout most of the groups discussion with you, is that you have not seemed to have realized that you unrealistic timing of events is the majority of the problem.

People make decisions and change them later - but inbetween, they won't act as if they didn't know what they do. It's unrealistic for them to wait with such decisions until the others left. So a mayor would be very likely to happen, except if any improvised leadership of the whole community tried to keep that from happening - which would also need a reason imo.

You have a point here about people making decisions, and a Mayor or what ever you want to call the spokesman for the Stay-Behinds (hey, I want copywite on that term:D) would probably happen, just perhaps not as fast as you seem to think. I think that people would be changing their minds BOTH ways as to whether they would stay or go.

The timing put up is also nonsense - it'll take several weeks until the last main settlers are gone, and everything in the poll will be done by then.

Glen, I believe you could have waited with the poll until my answer to your email arrived.

Oh BS. The timing part of the explaination of the poll is not nonsense, it is poorly worded. Instead of saying Which do you think should have happened between ISOT and the main settlement leaving?
it should have been between arrival on Day 1 and Day 6 (or 7). And no, once again, everything that you want to do would not be finished by the time that the last group pulls out.

Try to think on this, Rome was not built in a day. And that is most of what you seem to want to have happen.

[Psychomeltdown]

There is no way that we are going ot have an agreement with the Natives. We don't even speak a similar language between us. Any "agreement" we come to is going to be pointless..Not only do you not share the same language, you don't even share the same frame of mind. they may understand trading and what tools can do for them, but landownership? contracts? These are hunter gatherers, they have no concept of owning land, they have a territory they live upon, but they do not "own" it in the sense we understand it.

This will be a HUGE complication when it comes to dealing with the Naives, it was a big one in OTL too.


Also when dealing with native tribes, you're going to have to try to deal with all of them. You may make a deal with one, but another will still attack you. None of them are allied in any way, and even those that you are allied to can and probably will change leadership. They do not comprehend the meaning of a standing agreement.


Sorry but none of the things are likely to happen. Afterall Why would these people immediately move separate themselves from the Main Group? They're all still confused, frightened, shocked, and in some cases probably panicky about what's happening.

the first thing when you're thrown into a completely unfamiliar situation with thousands of people taken from all over the world and tossed through time, is not go out and begin trying to set up a market and electing a mayor.

You look for leadership, you look to try and put order to the chaos, you try and find out what happened, you try to find people you know, you try to stabilize things and then you begin planning for the future, and that's only the short term future.

[Darkest]

You guys...

150,000 Native Americans in THE ENTIRE STATE OF CALIFORNIA!

Okay, 25% of California is desert, meaning very few Amerindians will live in those areas, and be pushed to the coasts. Let's say Amerindians don't go into deserts at all.

That's more than 1 Amerindian per 2 square kilometers. 1:2 ratio!

Let's say that 75% of ALL Native Americans live on the inner, coastal, non-deserted half of California.

There's still only a density of 5:7.

There simply aren't that many Native Americans to go around! If a village/tribe consists of 100 individuals, then there is one village every 140 square kilometers.

Granted, there may be a higher concentration of Amerindians around the Bay Area... but this has to stop. Too many Native Americans for this time period.

[jolo]

I have never figured out why you insist on referring to a "Black Market." Nothing has been made illegal, nothing is being taxed, so no "Black Market" in the traditional sense.


Admittedly a bad wording. "Informal market" would be better. There's just so many similarities to the black markets appearing when normal options aren't available - as in our case.


People will most certainly trade in markets, it happens all the time between the venders at swap meets/flea markets, and I have seen non-venders doing the same. Swapping was more common than not at the small rural markets where I was working in South America. Yes, it would also be around the tents, but also in the market.


I must admit I've never seen such a swap meet myself, and I suppose they'd not be very effective for us. And all flea markets I've seen work with money - even in poor areas or the less organized ones. Also, if someone wants to get sth., he won't go to a market, sit down all day with his stuff, do all kinds of barter wich doesn't help him, and hope the thing he wants comes along. He'll ask everyone, until he finds sth. and trades directly. A swap meet sounds more like a pasttime. Some swapping may happen by chance. And some might even happen on a regular basis - a meal for a pack of cigarettes, or whatever happens often. But it's more likely imo that pretty quickly (after a few days to a few weeks) some kind of good would be used as currency - as happened IOTL.


Problems with this, we just found where one village was and it is about 10 or so miles away to the north. The other tribe we have had contact with, at least we hope they are another tribe, is another 20 or so miles further north and they were hostile from the beginning.

Yes, this needs to be done somehow, but we have some serious language and cultural barriers to get past. It ain't gonna happen today.

As has been normal throughout most of the groups discussion with you, is that you have not seemed to have realized that you unrealistic timing of events is the majority of the problem.



You have a point here about people making decisions, and a Mayor or what ever you want to call the spokesman for the Stay-Behinds (hey, I want copywite on that term:D) would probably happen, just perhaps not as fast as you seem to think. I think that people would be changing their minds BOTH ways as to whether they would stay or go.


3000 people not knowing what to do would probably quickly come to some kinds of organisation. 272 of them with decidedly different interests would probably soon take another direction - wagon building is not on their agenda, fishing or the likes is. Of 272 people, one could imagine at least a few to try to organize the group - make sure people get to know each other, make sure people meet, list names, and so on.

As a matter of fact, I consider producing 10 wagons a day far more unrealistic than electing a mayor within 2 or 3 days.

It may be unfair for people who change their mind - but all of us can handle not having voted for the local politicians when they move to another city. And there's nothing against another vote later.


Oh BS. The timing part of the explaination of the poll is not nonsense, it is poorly worded. Instead of saying
it should have been between arrival on Day 1 and Day 6 (or 7). And no, once again, everything that you want to do would not be finished by the time that the last group pulls out.


I don't see anything in the above poll that couldn't be done within 2 months. The Amerindians are another matter - but that has nothing to do with timing. Even single beavers can build small dams - and they don't have dynamite, saws, or winches.


Try to think on this, Rome was not built in a day. And that is most of what you seem to want to have happen.


I'm not building Rome. I just tried to simulate the dynamics of 272 people. And again - I'm willing to accept the results even if I disagree - that's not what the talk is about. I'm just against influencing the results. If everything were worded positively or neutrally, we could get a reasonable decision by everyone. As of now, I see that as impossible.

[Norbert]

I see many people either are not reading things, or are just ignoring what is said. Not everything has been an attack, much has been said to be constructive. I believe some things have advanced much faster than they should, and I have voiced my opinion on them, trying to point out a more realistic speed/timetable for those events. Personally, I pushed to have the first election for the council to Day 3 or 4. Time to get to know each other. People will be disorganized, bewildered, and confused for most of the first week. Some people may get it together before then, but not all. Damn it, I am getting tired of this BSing about whos right and whos wrong. Go to your corners, take ten deep breathes, and come out and shake hands, and put this continuous argument behind us.

[jolo]

Not only do you not share the same language, you don't even share the same frame of mind. they may understand trading and what tools can do for them, but landownership? contracts? These are hunter gatherers, they have no concept of owning land, they have a territory they live upon, but they do not "own" it in the sense we understand it.

This will be a HUGE complication when it comes to dealing with the Naives, it was a big one in OTL too.


Also when dealing with native tribes, you're going to have to try to deal with all of them. You may make a deal with one, but another will still attack you. None of them are allied in any way, and even those that you are allied to can and probably will change leadership. They do not comprehend the meaning of a standing agreement.


Sorry but none of the things are likely to happen. Afterall Why would these people immediately move separate themselves from the Main Group? They're all still confused, frightened, shocked, and in some cases probably panicky about what's happening.

the first thing when you're thrown into a completely unfamiliar situation with thousands of people taken from all over the world and tossed through time, is not go out and begin trying to set up a market and electing a mayor.

You look for leadership, you look to try and put order to the chaos, you try and find out what happened, you try to find people you know, you try to stabilize things and then you begin planning for the future, and that's only the short term future.

People got along differently with the natives - some expeditions were very good, others really bad. I'd think that we'd try to copy the "good" approaches asap, not the bad. And even though they had a different understanding of things like land ownership (similar to herders btw.), they were not unable to understand such things. And again - if the majority is against any agreements, I'll accept. I just believe the realistic result of that would be fights, starvation, and emmigration of Amerindians.

While I agree with you that there would be a lot of shock and confusion in our camp, the few hours of preparation given by the ASBs (even if considered a joke or a dream) would already help a lot.

There might also be a few people who would be mad at their spouses for getting them into this situation. Some might be arguing why they didn't bring the right supplies. There'd be leadership struggles. And so on.

But I'm pretty sure people would already calm down on the first day. Some of the wives might be weeping in corner and demand attention by their husbands. But most would sit around quickly organized camp fires and talk.

The second day would see more organisation, and also the first appearance of groups - by trade, by interest, by sympathy, and so on. Hunters would quickly hang around with hunters and find an agreement on a leader in each group of them. The same with lumber jacks, wives, and so on.

As I wanted to move quickly to a separate place to be together with the other people who want to stay, I suppose dozens more would think the same way. As I wanted to quickly get some things done, others would probably want the same.

The very fact that we are in a potentially life threatening situation would help organize things. And it would keep people from doing lots of small talk and a half-hearted approach to surviving.

We are not 50 people lacking everything - we are 3000 people with a lot of equipment. More comparable to an organized military expedition who lost their leading officer. They may break up into small groups, but those groups will achieve lots.

[Bulgaroktonos]

It's possible they'd be very afraid - especially if they see our numbers and begin to understand our weapons. Though that has never kept some factions of them to try it on their own - afaik, there have been quite a few agressions even against superior forces IOTL. Other factions might flee us instead to avoid starvation.

True enough, but unlikely to develop within 7 days.

Also, I'm not talking about a contract which would stand up to our legal standards. Just some kind of understanding over who lives and gets food where, to avoid clashes.

You have no way of communicating this. None at all. Think of the joke about the Jewish janitor versus the Pope in a silent debate. There are no shared concepts between us and the Indians. Words are pointless. If you've studied foreign languages for any period of time, you know that they don't always come easy, even if you have a shared language. Our negotiations with the natives are basically going to consist of pointing at stuff with no means of creating mutually understood advanced intellectual concepts like "ownership" or anything like that.

As we know history I can't imagine we'd wait for hostilities to happen - At least I personally would try to get into some kind of talks with the surrounding people when I'm stranded in their territory. The majority appears to be against this, though - I don't know why.

I'm even willing to accept any result of the poll for a retcon - I just bugs me when moderators with their authority influence the results.

We are in talks with the natives, but as we don't have any mutually understood medium, the furthest we can concievably advance is a few shared nouns and commands....

And it bugs me when people push for things that are utterly implausible. That's why we have moderators in the first place.

[jolo]

You guys...

150,000 Native Americans in THE ENTIRE STATE OF CALIFORNIA!

Okay, 25% of California is desert, meaning very few Amerindians will live in those areas, and be pushed to the coasts. Let's say Amerindians don't go into deserts at all.

That's more than 1 Amerindian per 2 square kilometers. 1:2 ratio!

Let's say that 75% of ALL Native Americans live on the inner, coastal, non-deserted half of California.

There's still only a density of 5:7.

There simply aren't that many Native Americans to go around! If a village/tribe consists of 100 individuals, then there is one village every 140 square kilometers.

Granted, there may be a higher concentration of Amerindians around the Bay Area... but this has to stop. Too many Native Americans for this time period.

It's more like 30-50 people in a tribe. Also, quite a few people roam around as tradesmen or hunters.

The tribes would then be one every 7x8 km. Our camp (3000 people, wood cutting, wagon building...) would be about 1x1 km (that's about 1000x1000 yards). According to your calculations, we have a tribe every few km along all creeks, rivers, and coast lines (including lakes). As we're in the middle of two creeks, I'd expect 4 or 5 tribes in our close neighbourhood, and lots of tribes around the bay - just using your numbers.

[jolo]

I see many people either are not reading things, or are just ignoring what is said. Not everything has been an attack, much has been said to be constructive. I believe some things have advanced much faster than they should, and I have voiced my opinion on them, trying to point out a more realistic speed/timetable for those events. Personally, I pushed to have the first election for the council to Day 3 or 4. Time to get to know each other. People will be disorganized, bewildered, and confused for most of the first week. Some people may get it together before then, but not all. Damn it, I am getting tired of this BSing about whos right and whos wrong. Go to your corners, take ten deep breathes, and come out and shake hands, and put this continuous argument behind us.

Which is why I had the idea for this poll - It would especially allow me to continue playing, as all I want is an agreement of what I did the last 7 days if lots of what I said is considered too fast. It's a peace offer on my side, which appearantly isn't accepted by some people.

[jolo]

True enough, but unlikely to develop within 7 days.


I didn't say all of them would start fighting immediately. But the natives who are used to get food from our area would probably feel the crunch already after a few days.


You have no way of communicating this. None at all. Think of the joke about the Jewish janitor versus the Pope in a silent debate. There are no shared concepts between us and the Indians. Words are pointless. If you've studied foreign languages for any period of time, you know that they don't always come easy, even if you have a shared language. Our negotiations with the natives are basically going to consist of pointing at stuff with no means of creating mutually understood advanced intellectual concepts like "ownership" or anything like that.


There will be misunderstandings - like the Manhattan deal, where the Europeans thought they tricked the Amerindians into selling them their land cheaply, while the Amerindians thought they tricked the Europeans for giving them something which they were free to use anyways. But there's also a better chance for peace if such agreements are at least tried - even under big misunderstandings.


We are in talks with the natives, but as we don't have any mutually understood medium, the furthest we can concievably advance is a few shared nouns and commands....


We have a medium - our surroundings, our visual abilities. Also, gestures should be pretty similar - we can easily exchange emotions, even if some gestures are different. It works for me (every once in a while), it should work for others, too.


And it bugs me when people push for things that are utterly implausible. That's why we have moderators in the first place.


I don't push implausible things imo - I always accepted when something unrealistic was removed. I just consider it unrealistic that all parts of the camp move at the same speed, with the same state of mind and priorities. That's unrealistic with 3000 people. 3000 people will have conflicts, they will have disagreements, they will do things against all orders, and so on - like in this discussion. They are not passive npc's following orders from the "real" travellers - we'd have dozens of WeaponMs, dozens of Psychomeltdowns, and so on.

And I also see these discussions as fruitful - I had to agree on some things others said, others had to agree on things I said, and a lot of you found understanding on things you discussed without my 2 cents.

[Doctor What]

I'm not going to comment on many of the aspects that were brought up. I WILL comment on this--mainly because it's my area of speciality:

At least I personally would try to get into some kind of talks with the surrounding people when I'm stranded in their territory. The majority appears to be against this, though - I don't know why

Just some kind of understanding over who lives and gets food where, to avoid clashes.

One more time-
-150 000 native IN THE WHOLE STATE

-divided into small villages of (at most) several hundred people but most probably 50 people or so.

-predominantly hunter-gatherers-

-Even if using a (in my mind) truly generous population density of 5 people/sq mile [assume phenomenal supplies of food] living off the land ('normal' figures used in nearly every anthropology book are 1-2/sq mile), that means that they will need minimum 10 sq miles. Using the 'normal' figures gives you 25-50 sq miles.

-Even assuming 1 tribe for every 5x5 mile area of land (unlikely but possible)--you don't know where they are. I drop you in the middle of the woods and tell you that somewhere in the immediate vicinity there are a group of 50 people hanging around but don't even tell you what direction they are in--how long will it take to find them? If you're lucky, you'll find them in one day searching. If you're lucky...

-No common language; no common frame of mind

-*we* are the intruders suddenly appearing in areas where they hunt, fish and gather food--and we look really freaky to them to them to boot. All it takes is one guy with a spear to freak out....

-hunter gathers often have seasonal 'camps'--one place that they go to for winter and another that they go to for summer. There is no such thing as 'land they aren't using'--it's more like 'land we're not using at the moment....'

-this is assuming, of course, that they even have the concept of land ownership to begin with. At *best* they have 'this is land that the micwok people hunt on--that land there is land that the ojumba people hunt on' (the collective 'we', so to speak). Trade is possible between the two groups (and often happens) but straying into the hunting lands of a different tribe may annoy a few people...

-we have a trained anthropologist AND a trained linguist who speaks literally 25 different languages AND a native who has been essentially ordered to gather as much info on the strangers and cooperate as much as possible- and in four days they have amassed at best a few hundred words. Look at the interactions I wrote (almost all of them are based on early researchers experiences btw)--just look at how slow and drawn out the process is.

I've gone over this before with you, jolo--

When I'm in a foreign country where I don't know the language and where they don't know any of my languages, I also usually can make everything important clear - within hours. The same with most people I know.

Really? You are able to have a discussion with people you just met in a language you just picked up about the role of gender inequalities as it relates to Sartre's discourse on the morality of good vs evil in a post-materialism world and whether or not man's place in the ecosystem is sustainable given current socio-economic conditions?

Oh--I'm sorry--were you a bit confused by that?

Imagine what a tribe of natives who have never seen a white man before living in 3000 BC would make of such concepts as 'land ownership', 'property', 'giving up useless land', 'contract', etc. Because that's what's it's going to sound like to them....

I'm sorry, jolo--I've tried to be polite here but I'm not getting into any further discussion with you about this.

[jolo]

I'm not going to comment on many of the aspects that were brought up. I WILL comment on this--mainly because it's my area of speciality:

[...]
-150 000 native IN THE WHOLE STATE

-divided into small villages of (at most) several hundred people but most probably 50 people or so.

-predominantly hunter-gatherers-

-Even if using a (in my mind) truly generous population density of 5 people/sq mile [assume phenomenal supplies of food] living off the land ('normal' figures used in nearly every anthropology book are 1-2/sq mile), that means that they will need minimum 10 sq miles. Using the 'normal' figures gives you 25-50 sq miles.

-Even assuming 1 tribe for every 5x5 mile area of land (unlikely but possible)--you don't know where they are. I drop you in the middle of the woods and tell you that somewhere in the immediate vicinity there are a group of 50 people hanging around but don't even tell you what direction they are in--how long will it take to find them? If you're lucky, you'll find them in one day searching. If you're lucky...


Some of us will ride around in the closer area from day one. Lots of us will hunt or gather beginning with day 2, covering larger areas each day.

The Amerindians do the same, just without horses.

Creeks are sth. most people will rather ride along than cross - they may be deep in some places, they are always a risk for a horse, they will have steep rims, and plants will be pretty thick around them.

As creeks are the likely places for the locals to live at, we'll probably get to know most of them quickly. They should also leave some traces in the woods, which some hunters will usually follow - if just for ease of riding.

Your figure of 1.5 people per sq mile means with your assumption of 50 members per tribe (which is high in comparison to what others said) 33 sq miles per tribe. That's 5.5x6 miles for every tribe - a maximum 2 hour walk to the next 4, and a 3 hour walk to further 4 tribes, if the woods are easy to pass.

Calculate yourself what that means in terms of likeliness of meeting tribes - Imo it could be about 2 tribes a day for the first 20 days, with all the actions described by our main posters except me.


-*we* are the intruders suddenly appearing in areas where they hunt, fish and gather food--and we look really freaky to them to them to boot. All it takes is one guy with a spear to freak out....

-hunter gathers often have seasonal 'camps'--one place that they go to for winter and another that they go to for summer. There is no such thing as 'land they aren't using'--it's more like 'land we're not using at the moment....'

-this is assuming, of course, that they even have the concept of land ownership to begin with. At *best* they have 'this is land that the micwok people hunt on--that land there is land that the ojumba people hunt on' (the collective 'we', so to speak). Trade is possible between the two groups (and often happens) but straying into the hunting lands of a different tribe may annoy a few people...


Which is all supporting what I say.


No common language; no common frame of mind

we have a trained anthropologist AND a trained linguist who speaks literally 25 different languages AND a native who has been essentially ordered to gather as much info on the strangers and cooperate as much as possible- and in four days they have amassed at best a few hundred words. Look at the interactions I wrote (almost all of them are based on early researchers experiences btw)--just look at how slow and drawn out the process is.

Really? You are able to have a discussion with people you just met in a language you just picked up about the role of gender inequalities as it relates to Sartre's discourse on the morality of good vs evil in a post-materialism world and whether or not man's place in the ecosystem is sustainable given current socio-economic conditions?


I said important things: eat, drink, sleep, a picture, a map, feelings (if that should be the case, for good or for bad), and so on. I don't know if you ever tried to find your way in a foreign country without a common language. I did, I usually had no serious problems, and Lots of people I know made similar experiences. Also, it has all been done before - again both for good and for bad.


Imagine what a tribe of natives who have never seen a white man before living in 3000 BC would make of such concepts as 'land ownership', 'property', 'giving up useless land', 'contract', etc. Because that's what's it's going to sound like to them....


They will understand basic concepts like territory (hunting/fishing ground), as you said yourself. They should easily understand a map - especially if it's coloured and some gesturing shows the associations between the different drawings and surrounding features. And so on.

And, also the umpteenth time, I'm not discussing this to avoid realism, I'm just reacting upon what you say with what appears to be realistic points to me.

[Ghost 88]

You guys...

150,000 Native Americans in THE ENTIRE STATE OF CALIFORNIA!

Okay, 25% of California is desert, meaning very few Amerindians will live in those areas, and be pushed to the coasts. Let's say Amerindians don't go into deserts at all.

That's more than 1 Amerindian per 2 square kilometers. 1:2 ratio!

Let's say that 75% of ALL Native Americans live on the inner, coastal, non-deserted half of California.

There's still only a density of 5:7.

There simply aren't that many Native Americans to go around! If a village/tribe consists of 100 individuals, then there is one village every 140 square kilometers.

Granted, there may be a higher concentration of Amerindians around the Bay Area... but this has to stop. Too many Native Americans for this time period.
Isn't that 150,000 from when the Spanish started colonization?:confused: :)

[Doctor What]

Oy vey.....

This is the scenario that you want us to accept:
-Your group of ~300 people appear
-You send out scouting missions (into a forest that you know nothing about)
-One or more of your scouts make contact
-You are able to communicate to a group who have never seen a white man that you're not some freaky invader
-You manage to communicate to the natives (despite having no knowledge of their language, customs or even frame of mind) that you want to trade with them and/or 'have some of their land' for your purposes.
-They agree to this deal

And you accomplish all this within how many days?

[jolo]

This is the scenario that you want us to accept:
-Your group of ~300 people appear


Day 2-3


-You send out scouting missions (into a forest that you know nothing about)


Day 1-forever


-One or more of your scouts make contact


Day 2-4 (seeing the village)


-You are able to communicate to a group who have never seen a white man that you're not some freaky invader


Wouldn't be the first time in history.


-You manage to communicate to the natives (despite having no knowledge of their language, customs or even frame of mind) that you want to trade with them and/or 'have some of their land' for your purposes.


I believe it should be possible to achieve such an understanding - even within a few hours, though it will surely include the one or other misunderstanding. But, as I said, I can handle dropping that one. There's nothing to fight about.


-They agree to this deal


Thanks to little presents, and not unlike a European smoking a peace pipe.


And you accomplish all this within how many days?


5 days was in my posts for all this. And there appear to be people here who consider this impossible in 2 months - despite fewer people with less knowledge being much faster IOTL.

[Dave Howery]

change all the days to months and it might work....

[Norbert]

5 days was in my posts for all this. And there appear to be people here who consider this impossible in 2 months - despite fewer people with less knowledge being much faster IOTL.

You are grossly overestimating your proposal. You might have some cahnce at it if you were dealing with a similar culture, or a language from a similar culture. Are you telling me if you were placed in China 500 years ago, with no knowledge of ANY Chinese language, and they have NEVER encountered a European language, you could get ALL the things you are communicating in 5 DAYS? It took the Portuguese years to understand enough of the Japanese language to manage their success in trading with them.

The Native Languages of North America have NO common roots, vowels, or verbs with European Languages. If I went to Italy, but did not speak Italian, I could pick up bits and pieces of their language BECAUSE I know the meanings of some of the root of words, BECAUSE both languages have some of the same roots from LATIN.

Tell me, if I gave you the Word onekama, what does it mean? You have 1 day to give me the answer.

By the way, onekama is an actual Amerind term. I will give you this much in that it comes from the Chippewa people.

[jolo]

change all the days to months and it might work....

Do you have any reasons for this? It's not about thousands of miles of distances. It's not about humans talking to extraterrestrians. It's not even about doing sth. never done before...

[Othniel]

Do you have any reasons for this? It's not about thousands of miles of distances. It's not about humans talking to extraterrestrians. It's not even about doing sth. never done before...
How long was Columbus in the Caribbean before he returned to Spain on his first trip?

The only person that even has a simular possible lanague family would be Psychomeltdown, if Navjo and this lanague are both part of the Uto-Aztecan family. (I don't think either is in that family but it is the only aremedian root lanague I know of...so I throw it out there...)

[Othniel]

Thinking even more about it, how many hunter-gather tribes even have a system of writting or symbolic charters in this area? Maybe something like the danger cave drawnings, though illstrations might be your best chance to communicate...

[Doctor What]

Don't forgot Oth that there's a 5000 year difference--so even if they were exactly the same language to begin with, there would have been significant changes...

[jolo]

You are grossly overestimating your proposal. You might have some cahnce at it if you were dealing with a similar culture, or a language from a similar culture. Are you telling me if you were placed in China 500 years ago, with no knowledge of ANY Chinese language, and they have NEVER encountered a European language, you could get ALL the things you are communicating in 5 DAYS? It took the Portuguese years to understand enough of the Japanese language to manage their success in trading with them.

The Native Languages of North America have NO common roots, vowels, or verbs with European Languages. If I went to Italy, but did not speak Italian, I could pick up bits and pieces of their language BECAUSE I know the meanings of some of the root of words, BECAUSE both languages have some of the same roots from LATIN.

Tell me, if I gave you the Word onekama, what does it mean? You have 1 day to give me the answer.

By the way, onekama is an actual Amerind term. I will give you this much in that it comes from the Chippewa people.

Onekama means "an arm".

I'm not saying the people contacting the Amerindians understand their language. Despite lots of articles about Amerindians, I suppose none of us will even really understand their culture, believes, or customs. But it's possible to point to an arm and say "onekama" or "arm". And it's possible to point to a blue patch on a map and the nearby lake, and the likes.

I'm also sure trade was done even before there were trade agreements - if not with the Japanese, then with other peoples.

[Norbert]

Onekama means "an arm".

I'm not saying the people contacting the Amerindians understand their language. Despite lots of articles about Amerindians, I suppose none of us will even really understand their culture, believes, or customs. But it's possible to point to an arm and say "onekama" or "arm". And it's possible to point to a blue patch on a map and the nearby lake, and the likes.

I'm also sure trade was done even before there were trade agreements - if not with the Japanese, then with other peoples.

Nay. 'Onekama' has nothing to do with 'arm'. Try again.

[jolo]

Nay. 'Onekama' has nothing to do with 'arm'. Try again.

It says so here: http://www.turtletrack.org/CO_FirstPerson/CO_04052003_VerwystGeography.htm - even the right tribe.

[Ghost 88]

How long was Columbus in the Caribbean before he returned to Spain on his first trip?

The only person that even has a simular possible lanague family would be Psychomeltdown, if Navjo and this lanague are both part of the Uto-Aztecan family. (I don't think either is in that family but it is the only aremedian root lanague I know of...so I throw it out there...)
If irc Navajo is considered an Athabaskan tongue and he would be likely to speak to an Alaskan Indian no idea on Ca. tribes though. I'd suspect not as it may be long before his ancestors started south.

[Doctor What]

It says so here: http://www.turtletrack.org/CO_FirstPerson/CO_04052003_VerwystGeography.htm - even the right tribe.

*ahem* you don't have Google in 3000 BC ;)

[jolo]

*ahem* you don't have Google in 3000 BC ;)

I also don't have any Amerindians anywhere near me atm - so I'm willing to stretch the 5 minutes of googling to the 24h Norbert gave me to find an Amerindian, repeat the word, and hope he doesn't slap me... :)

[Psychomeltdown]

If irc Navajo is considered an Athabaskan tongue and he would be likely to speak to an Alaskan Indian no idea on Ca. tribes though. I'd suspect not as it may be long before his ancestors started south.
Yeppers.

We were still probably crossing over from the second world at this point. ;)

[Norbert]

Whatever it says, the local meaning of 'onekama' is not arm. And, it would not be the first time an incorrect entry was made. I lived there, and many of my friends growing up were natives, and still spoke their traditional language.

[Ghost 88]

Yeppers.

We were still probably crossing over from the second world at this point. ;)
:p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :D

[jolo]

Whatever it says, the local meaning of 'onekama' is not arm. And, it would not be the first time an incorrect entry was made. I lived there, and many of my friends growing up were natives, and still spoke their traditional language.

Maybe I met an Amerindian from a wrong tribe - at least I know what the word means in his language then...

[Psychomeltdown]

Maybe I met an Amerindian from a wrong tribe - at least I know what the word means in his language then...
but as Doc what pointed out, languages may be completely different from other tribes only a few dozen miles away.

[jolo]

but as Doc what pointed out, languages may be completely different from other tribes only a few dozen miles away.

Yes, but as I pointed out it is not necessary to talk to (partly) understand - remember the language of love? :D

[Doctor What]

Yes, but as I pointed out it is not necessary to talk to (partly) understand - remember the language of love? :D

Oh--so THAT'S how you got the chief of the tribe to give you that land....;)

[jolo]

Oh--so THAT'S how you got the chief of the tribe to give you that land....;)

LOL........

[Dave Howery]

looking at the tasks on the poll, I guess some of that could be done... fishing camp? Sure. Small market? Ok, but I don't think there'd be much business yet. Anything to do with the natives? Nope, not a chance this soon... according to the official log so far, the only ones we've encountered are the coastal 'friendly' Miwok and the hostile hills ones... and even if you did contact them, the chances of making an immediate deal with them seems unlikely at best. I think you are using the absolute most optimistic guess when it comes to building things... I'd do the opposite and say it takes twice as long to build something as estimated, simply because we're all learning how to do most of it... the first time you do it, you're learning and it takes a while... the second time, not so long... after that, it gets faster. I think another camp way up at the bay isn't going to happen as soon as you think... you've got too much to do right here. Most of your small group of people should be tied up with clearing land, planting gardens, and building cabins... anything else is wasted effort right now.

As it is, I get the impression that in a year, you'll be building advanced technological factories that will be producing the robot workers to do all your chores.... :)

[jolo]

looking at the tasks on the poll, I guess some of that could be done... fishing camp? Sure. Small market? Ok, but I don't think there'd be much business yet. Anything to do with the natives? Nope, not a chance this soon... according to the official log so far, the only ones we've encountered are the coastal 'friendly' Miwok and the hostile hills ones... and even if you did contact them, the chances of making an immediate deal with them seems unlikely at best. I think you are using the absolute most optimistic guess when it comes to building things... I'd do the opposite and say it takes twice as long to build something as estimated, simply because we're all learning how to do most of it... the first time you do it, you're learning and it takes a while... the second time, not so long... after that, it gets faster. I think another camp way up at the bay isn't going to happen as soon as you think... you've got too much to do right here. Most of your small group of people should be tied up with clearing land, planting gardens, and building cabins... anything else is wasted effort right now.


Actually I'm not talking much about building - a few corrals, and a few roofs on stilts, that's it.

Our camps use tents, at most.

Building cabins is someting for much later, though my people were supposed to be free to decide on that themselves.


As it is, I get the impression that in a year, you'll be building advanced technological factories that will be producing the robot workers to do all your chores.... :)


Darn - next you say you look through my secret plan to conquer the world with those robots... :D

[Dave Howery]

Actually I'm not talking much about building - a few corrals, and a few roofs on stilts, that's it.

Our camps use tents, at most.

Building cabins is someting for much later, though my people were supposed to be free to decide on that themselves.
D
you need buildings... barns for livestock, cellars and storage for food... heck, don't you want your children to be in a cabin away from the wolves and bears? Since we are only 1 week in the game, your people should still be clearing fields and gathering lumber... that's a huge job that will tie up most of your help. You really don't have the people or time to be wandering off to find the natives, or doing much of anything else...

[jolo]

you need buildings... barns for livestock, cellars and storage for food... heck, don't you want your children to be in a cabin away from the wolves and bears? Since we are only 1 week in the game, your people should still be clearing fields and gathering lumber... that's a huge job that will tie up most of your help. You really don't have the people or time to be wandering off to find the natives, or doing much of anything else...

you are right - can't put all of them in corrals, on leashes, or in baskets (chicken). Some more building needed there. But not too much.

Cellars and storage for food aren't top priority - I suppose most people brought along something to pack their stuff in - like boxes, suitcases, and so on.

The bears will be welcome food if we can get them to come to our camps. The wolves may be nice to domesticate. The people with dogs are supposed to be more on the outskirts of the camps - should help a bit, too.

Off 272 people, a few should be available for even the strangest tasks - some guards are needed anyways to patrol the area. Hunters also do that, more or less accidentally.

[Dave Howery]

you're still thinking too positive for time to do things... however long you think the first field would take to clear, double it... you're all learning how to do it. The second one, 50% longer than estimated... you're getting better, but still learning. The third one, right on the estimate... you've gotten it down pretty well. Same goes for putting up buildings... at this point in the game, about all your little band will have accomplished is getting a field or two cleared, some lumber cut...

and don't forget that a part of your 272 people will be children....

[jolo]

you're still thinking too positive for time to do things... however long you think the first field would take to clear, double it... you're all learning how to do it. The second one, 50% longer than estimated... you're getting better, but still learning. The third one, right on the estimate... you've gotten it down pretty well. Same goes for putting up buildings... at this point in the game, about all your little band will have accomplished is getting a field or two cleared, some lumber cut...

and don't forget that a part of your 272 people will be children....

I even agree pretty much on the few lands cut free - which is why some of our fields are on clearances close by, some are not completely free but already in use (depends on the plant), and so on.

I brought along a chain saw and some gas - so did a few others, I suppose. Should be enough for quite a bit of wood cutting - if only for a few weeks.

And, as I don't believe the food from the fields will come in time, lots of people are assigned for fishing, hunting, and gathering - though gathering has become futile, so that those people learn fishing atm.

[Psychomeltdown]

Cellars and storage for food aren't top priority - I suppose most people brought along something to pack their stuff in - like boxes, suitcases, and so on. there's a difference between packing your food in something and storing it in a safe place. You need those storage facilities, root cellars and whanot to store whatever game you have and whatever you have in surplus. Either that or consume it right then and there.

The bears will be welcome food if we can get them to come to our camps. The wolves may be nice to domesticate. The people with dogs are supposed to be more on the outskirts of the camps - should help a bit, too. Dude, you don't want BEARS ANYWHERE near your camp. they run faster than a horse, they're meaner than hell, and they're not afraid of you or anything. You'll have to keep constant watch, you people will have to be always armed, and on the alert. How much energy will that cost you?

Wolves? Domesticated. That'll take GENERATIONS, human Generations. They'll still be wild even if bred with domestic dogs.

Off 272 people, a few should be available for even the strangest tasks - some guards are needed anyways to patrol the area. Hunters also do that, more or less accidentally. 197 are adults.
75 are children.
based on the fact that Darkest put your population at 272 and 68 families. But even 75 kids is lower than average, considering that the Main Camp has a children population of nearly 40% of the 2780 people there.

You'll only have 197 people working flat out on everything. Then they'll still be in danger from animals and natives.

[Dave Howery]

again, the problem with foraging is that it sucks as a way to feed yourselves. Hunting... works great for a week, then the game gets hard to find. Fishing... same thing; great for a week, then you've gotten most of the fish and you have to go farther and work harder to get the same amount. Gathering? Iffy at best... about the only food to be gathered in quantity are nuts, which puts you in competition with the natives... and they only did it by spreading out and setting frequent brush fires. Face it, the only way you're going to get enough food is to grow it....

[Psychomeltdown]

I brought along a chain saw and some gas - so did a few others, I suppose. Should be enough for quite a bit of wood cutting - if only for a few weeks.
.
how much gasoline did you bring?

Gasoline weight about 6 lbs per gallon.

Even carrying 5 gallons would weight 30 lbs.

[Norbert]

I even agree pretty much on the few lands cut free - which is why some of our fields are on clearances close by, some are not completely free but already in use (depends on the plant), and so on.

I brought along a chain saw and some gas - so did a few others, I suppose. Should be enough for quite a bit of wood cutting - if only for a few weeks.

And, as I don't believe the food from the fields will come in time, lots of people are assigned for fishing, hunting, and gathering - though gathering has become futile, so that those people learn fishing atm.

Have you ever used a chainsaw? Have you ever cut down a tree over 9" diameter? If not, you'll be in serious trouble. Especially if you try to cut bigger trees, 2-4 feet diameter. If you have NEVER used a chainsaw before, I WILL NOT TEACH YOU. It would be much to dangerous.

[Dave Howery]

heck, maybe we should just let Jolo submit his plans every day... and then let the moderators tell him what goes wrong every day...

"Ok, so you're planning on gathering enough food today to feed everyone for a week, all by hunting, fishing, and gathering? Well, you only find a couple of deer, the fish are mostly gone, and you get about 40 lbs. of nuts. So, you didn't even get enough food for one day. What are you doing tomorrow?"

[Ghost 88]

heck, maybe we should just let Jolo submit his plans every day... and then let the moderators tell him what goes wrong every day...

"Ok, so you're planning on gathering enough food today to feed everyone for a week, all by hunting, fishing, and gathering? Well, you only find a couple of deer, the fish are mostly gone, and you get about 40 lbs. of nuts. So, you didn't even get enough food for one day. What are you doing tomorrow?"
he's useing his money to buy food from his native friend obtw is he even collecting nuts in Feb.

[jolo]

there's a difference between packing your food in something and storing it in a safe place. You need those storage facilities, root cellars and whanot to store whatever game you have and whatever you have in surplus. Either that or consume it right then and there.

Dude, you don't want BEARS ANYWHERE near your camp. they run faster than a horse, they're meaner than hell, and they're not afraid of you or anything. You'll have to keep constant watch, you people will have to be always armed, and on the alert. How much energy will that cost you?

Wolves? Domesticated. That'll take GENERATIONS, human Generations. They'll still be wild even if bred with domestic dogs.

197 are adults.
75 are children.
based on the fact that Darkest put your population at 272 and 68 families. But even 75 kids is lower than average, considering that the Main Camp has a children population of nearly 40% of the 2780 people there.

You'll only have 197 people working flat out on everything. Then they'll still be in danger from animals and natives.

I suppose most of our game and fish will be consumed immediately. Any surplus can be conserved with smoking, salt, or whatever is suitable, and then packed accordingly. Should be possible. Later, enough facilities are available.

In line with the rest of you, I calculated for quite a few hunters who do some guarding, guards who do some hunting, workers who have their guns close by, and the alertness of the dogs. Should usually be enough, though more security is added as time goes by and as fast as possible.

I thought most of the wolves in the area are descendants from the formerly domesticated wolves brought along by the Amerindians. Those should be not too much of a problem. But even if not, it should be possible to put them on a strong leash and make them help us against other wolves, bears, and so on. If not - I suppose it wouldn't be the first roasted wolf.

Amerindians in the area survive in groups of about 50 people, without our weapons or our possibilities. I suppose we can do that, too.

[jolo]

again, the problem with foraging is that it sucks as a way to feed yourselves. Hunting... works great for a week, then the game gets hard to find. Fishing... same thing; great for a week, then you've gotten most of the fish and you have to go farther and work harder to get the same amount. Gathering? Iffy at best... about the only food to be gathered in quantity are nuts, which puts you in competition with the natives... and they only did it by spreading out and setting frequent brush fires. Face it, the only way you're going to get enough food is to grow it....

In the long term, we need the fields. But fish should be enough for the next few years - except no-one likes to eat only fish.

[jolo]

how much gasoline did you bring?

Gasoline weight about 6 lbs per gallon.

Even carrying 5 gallons would weight 30 lbs.

How long would that last? I should have 50-100lbs, especially if I can take the parts for bigger machines with me. Otherwise, it'll be a 3 weeks supply.

[Norbert]

Figure that 5 gallons would last for about 1 acre cutting. You also would need 1 Gallon of oil for the chain.

[jolo]

Have you ever used a chainsaw? Have you ever cut down a tree over 9" diameter? If not, you'll be in serious trouble. Especially if you try to cut bigger trees, 2-4 feet diameter. If you have NEVER used a chainsaw before, I WILL NOT TEACH YOU. It would be much to dangerous.

I haven't used one yet - but nearly everything else which could've cost me a limb and didn't.

In my posts I leased the chainsaw to others - of 272 people, some should be able to use it.

But I'm pretty sure I'd quickly find out how it's done, even on my own - afaik, one shouldn't try to cut through the whole tree - it's better to chip off parts at the sides. I'd do my first experiments far away from anyone else... :)

[Ward]

Jolo

How much time in your life Have you ever worked for your food .


Let alone had to hunt for it in the woods . How long have you ever lived outside . For one by now you stink and if you move down wind of the animals they are going to run from you . By the way how old are you ?
Have you ever had to work from sunup to sundown just to make sure there is food on the taple that night .

[jolo]

Figure that 5 gallons would last for about 1 acre cutting. You also would need 1 Gallon of oil for the chain.

Oil belongs to the things I forgot... But as a few others have proposed to bring along machinery, I hope they did bring some. Otherwise, we'd have to produce some - other oils (made from fat or plants) won't be very good, but better than no oil.

[Norbert]

I haven't used one yet - but nearly everything else which could've cost me a limb and didn't.

In my posts I leased the chainsaw to others - of 272 people, some should be able to use it.

But I'm pretty sure I'd quickly find out how it's done, even on my own - afaik, one shouldn't try to cut through the whole tree - it's better to chip off parts at the sides. I'd do my first experiments far away from anyone else... :)

If you are going to experiment, I'd give you a 50-50 shot of getting hurt or worse. I've seen very experienced cutters get hurt cutting. For example, instead of falling the way you think, it rolls on the stump and comes down on you. This is based on experience from cutting wood for lumber and firewood for many years. And if you are far from everyone else, no one will know that you had an accident until you don't show up for supper. Part of the reason no one in my crew works alone. Heck, I've had a couple of trees come down on me, fortunatly they were smaller trees and I only got caught in the branches, but it could have been much more serious.

[Norbert]

Oil belongs to the things I forgot... But as a few others have proposed to bring along machinery, I hope they did bring some. Otherwise, we'd have to produce some - other oils (made from fat or plants) won't be very good, but better than no oil.

If you were to use other types of oil, such as from plants or renedered from fat, you will probably need 1 gallon of oil for each gallon of gasoline. The oil going to the chain is very important. If you do not have enough of it, it will seize, and then you may have more problems.

There is also a delicate balance between having the chain to tight or to loose. You would be better off with the crosscut saws and axes such as I brought. I will teach anyone who wants how to use them. But even though I've cut for several years with chainsaws, the consumed materials for them don't warrent the weight you need to take them. You'd be better off doing things the 'old-fashioned' way. The tools for the 'old-fashioned' way will last for many, many years, unlike two or three weeks for the modern 'time-saving' power tools.

[jolo]

Jolo

How much time in your life Have you ever worked for your food .


Let alone had to hunt for it in the woods . How long have you ever lived outside . For one by now you stink and if you move down wind of the animals they are going to run from you . By the way how old are you ?
Have you ever had to work from sunup to sundown just to make sure there is food on the taple that night .

I've never worked on a farm, if you mean that. I'm in my 30s. I know that one should hunt against the wind. I've spent some time outside, though not farming or hunting. And I did have to work hard in my life at times...

[jolo]

If you are going to experiment, I'd give you a 50-50 shot of getting hurt or worse. I've seen very experienced cutters get hurt cutting. For example, instead of falling the way you think, it rolls on the stump and comes down on you. This is based on experience from cutting wood for lumber and firewood for many years. And if you are far from everyone else, no one will know that you had an accident until you don't show up for supper. Part of the reason no one in my crew works alone. Heck, I've had a couple of trees come down on me, fortunatly they were smaller trees and I only got caught in the branches, but it could have been much more serious.

I know why I prefer pros to handle dangerous tools... :)

But it's part of my personality to rather take some more risk on me than to involve others. But thinking about this, I might ask someone to look out for me from a distance during my experiments...

[Ghost 88]

I know why I prefer pros to handle dangerous tools... :)
This one of the things we have been trying to get thru to you Ward is a retired farmer. Norbert has experince at lumbering. My self 11 yrs in the US Army plus years of reading about early American history My army training included many survival courses. If we argue with you its because you seem to think that because Jolo wants it to work it will work its just doesn't work that way. Ward and I PMed one another a few days ago and came to the Conclution that our group was seriously screwed as we first came over thats why he posted the increase in supplies Those supplies have to be practical. A modern wonder that is going to be useless in a month is not practical your not going with the main group lessens your chances of survival greatly. I try not to be harsh but being 53 yrs old and a couple of decades more experince maybe even more in outdoor experince I think anyone who stays at Ian's apartment are dead. I'll say one more when we get to where everyone of us isn't killing ourself trying to survive I'll help you build your trading post, but thats in the future. It has to be. As i keep saying the survival of the COMMUNITY has to come first.

[jolo]

This one of the things we have been trying to get thru to you Ward is a retired farmer. Norbert has experince at lumbering. My self 11 yrs in the US Army plus years of reading about early American history My army training included many survival courses. If we argue with you its because you seem to think that because Jolo wants it to work it will work its just doesn't work that way. Ward and I PMed one another a few days ago and came to the Conclution that our group was seriously screwed as we first came over thats why he posted the increase in supplies Those supplies have to be practical. A modern wonder that is going to be useless in a month is not practical your not going with the main group lessens your chances of survival greatly. I try not to be harsh but being 53 yrs old and a couple of decades more experince maybe even more in outdoor experince I think anyone who stays at Ian's apartment are dead. I'll say one more when we get to where everyone of us isn't killing ourself trying to survive I'll help you build your trading post, but thats in the future. It has to be. As i keep saying the survival of the COMMUNITY has to come first.

But don't you think it would be good for the community if we had enough fishing going on 1 or 2 months earlier than if everyone moved? Don't you think it might be useful to have some of our plants grow at another place - to avoid loosing too much in case of bad wheather? Isn't it also practical to let all of us gain a little farming experience before the "real" farms begin? And so on. There should be enough easily irrigateable land in the area for 272 people. I believe 2 settlements have a much higher chance for survival than one slightly bigger settlement. People will automatically flock to the more successful settlement, which will also increase our chances. And we can easily exchange goods via boat. Personally, I'm a city dweller anyways - as soon as the city is self sufficient, I'll probably go there anyways.

[Dave Howery]

In the long term, we need the fields. But fish should be enough for the next few years - except no-one likes to eat only fish.
years?! If you were all right by the coast, maybe. You are NOT going to keep everyone fed for years on river fish. You will clean out most of them in a month or two, and the ones left will be wary as hell. Hunter/gatherers don't live in one spot for long, as you plan on doing... they have to move around because they strip an area bare of food in a short time. You need those fields up and running ASAP.... hunting/gathering is a source of food only for a month or two... and your small band needs to concentrate mostly on the fields....

[Glen]

years?! If you were all right by the coast, maybe. You are NOT going to keep everyone fed for years on river fish. You will clean out most of them in a month or two, and the ones left will be wary as hell. Hunter/gatherers don't live in one spot for long, as you plan on doing... they have to move around because they strip an area bare of food in a short time. You need those fields up and running ASAP.... hunting/gathering is a source of food only for a month or two... and your small band needs to concentrate mostly on the fields....

Agreed. A group with boats off the bay could be fed indefinitely at our numbers, but not the rivers. Of course, how navigable is this stream/river? If they can go up and down it by boat, they could still access the sea and deliver catches.

[jolo]

Agreed. A group with boats off the bay could be fed indefinitely at our numbers, but not the rivers. Of course, how navigable is this stream/river? If they can go up and down it by boat, they could still access the sea and deliver catches.

My first fishing camp was supposed to be further down the creek where it gets wider and access to the bay should be ensured.

[pisces74]

But don't you think it would be good for the community if we had enough fishing going on 1 or 2 months earlier than if everyone moved?

How long do you think it takes us to bait a hook? you'd get maybe a week jumpstart on us in a less populated river. Even with the week head start the bay fishers will be out producing you in two weeks

Don't you think it might be useful to have some of our plants grow at another place - to avoid loosing too much in case of bad wheather? Isn't it also practical to let all of us gain a little farming experience before the "real" farms begin? And so on. There should be enough easily irrigateable land in the area for 272 people. I believe 2 settlements have a much higher chance for survival than one slightly bigger settlement. People will automatically flock to the more successful settlement, which will also increase our chances. And we can easily exchange goods via boat. Personally, I'm a city dweller anyways - as soon as the city is self sufficient, I'll probably go there anyways.

Any weather event (outside of prarie fire) will affect both communities, so all you're doing is dividing up our seed cache. Personally I could see 272 surviving at the apartment, but I wouldn't call it living.

[jolo]

How long do you think it takes us to bait a hook? you'd get maybe a week jumpstart on us in a less populated river. Even with the week head start the bay fishers will be out producing you in two weeks


As my fishermen go to the bay, too, they'll be the ones with an advantage. Also, they have several boats finished when you guys build your first one. They have more experience when the ones starting later. And some of them can easily be assigned to the new camp. I'd even go as far as to say a lot of the main settlers should start fishing careers at the first settlement and move to Berkeley with boat.


Any weather event (outside of prarie fire) will affect both communities, so all you're doing is dividing up our seed cache. Personally I could see 272 surviving at the apartment, but I wouldn't call it living.


I suppose lots more possibilities - rain will be different, temperatures will be different, plant pests might be different, and so on.

I'm pretty sure enough people would be mobile enough to move wherever standard of living is higher, so that the differences would even out.

[Leo Caesius]

FWIW, here's my impression on the issue of communication with the natives, per MBarry's request. I don't want to rock any boats, however, so feel free to disregard this.

First of all, it is my impression that anything but the most rudimentary communication is going to be impossible for a few years. To start with, it might take weeks or even months just to find a group with which to make contact, unless you end up right next to one. Under the right circumstances (complete immersion, for example, which would entail an Indian to voluntarily live with the settlers - fat chance - or a settler to live with the Indians - also highly unlikely), a highly motivated individual might be able to learn the basics of a new language within a few months to a year. Remember, you have no grammars, no dictionaries, no teachers, and the language is completely alien to anything that any of you will know.

Keep in mind that any initial contacts are more likely to be hostile, not friendly, and thus few opportunities will present themselves for intercourse. It's far more probable that the first language learners will be prisoners of war on either side. If it were not for Tisquantum (aka "Squanto"), a Wampanoag pniese who had spent five years as a slave in Spain and England, the Pilgrims at Plymoth would not have been able to communicate with Massasoit - and this was after the Wampanoag had been encountering the Europeans sporadically for at least a few decades.

Also keep in mind that the natives will not have any experience with foreigners learning their language, and for this reason will have extreme difficulty understanding any botched attempts at pronouncing it (in my attempts to learn Neo-Aramaic, which is related to many languages that I already speak, and has a rather normal phonology, I've found that "mispronounced" words don't merely sound "funny" to my informants - they are completely incomprehensible). Unless you have a machine-like ability to reproduce completely alien sounds, your attempts at pronouncing native words are likely to sound like so much babble.

Charades are unlikely to be of much use. The only reason charades and other such parlor games work is because the players share a common cultural background, with all that it entails. With Native Americans at this time period, you are starting with a blank slate. Most attempts at charades will elicit blank stares.

Some sort of silent barter might be possible. Herodotus reports that the Phoenicians would land on the coast of West Africa, leave items on the shore for the Africans to examine, and disappear. When they returned, the Africans would always have exchanged the Phoenicians' products for their own. If we are to believe Herodotus (always a tricky proposition), that is how the Phoenicians would have conducted regular trade with groups such as the ones you're dealing with. Presumably they had a kind of prior understanding with the Africans. Now, how you are to achieve such an understanding with the natives is an tricky question unto itself.

My prognosis - communication will only be possible if one or the other groups captures a member of the opposite group and spares their life, in the process somehow imparting their language to them. Before then, both groups will treat each other with suspicion and, at best, try to keep out of each other's way.

As for any economy among the settlers - if survival is an issue then the sort of considerations that drive a free market (such as competition and profit) will have to be put aside. People will need to specialize in a given trade and be ready to provide their services for the community. Commodities are likely to be scarce initially, and until that situation changes, it makes more sense to exchange goods directly (without currency). Others (such as those who have medical skills) may find themselves in high demand but without being compensated for their services - until surpluses exist. The settlers are likely to interact as a small community, helping one another out according to a kind of primitive, casual barter system, with favors and IOUs being the chief units of exchange.

[jolo]

As I'm the only who disagreed so far, I'll accept... :cool:

[Doctor What]

Thanks Leo--that was very helpful.

Like I've been saying, we are going to be speaking only 'tourist-Miwok' for the foreseenable future--and the only reason even *that* was possible was due to an incredible series of fortunate events for us (books being carried with us, trained linguist, guy who studied anthropology, elder of a tribe being incredibly enlightened and curious, a native with a genius level IQ and apparently having Leo's gift for languages, etc...).

[Leo Caesius]

Even "tourist Miwok" is going to be a bit of a stretch - you see, most people who host tourists are used to people mangling their language. These Miwoks are most likely not. This is a huge factor in communication that most people don't consider - that the other group may not even recognize that you're trying to duplicate their language, or understand your attempts at it.

Since you have an understanding with them, you might be able to effectively communicate for the near future, but 90% of it will be non-verbal. Eventually, in a situation such as yours, a kind of trade jargon or pidgin will evolve (like the famous Chinook Jargon (http://chinookjargon.home.att.net/)) that will cater to the needs of basic communication; I recommend scrolling through it to see what kinds of concepts are feasible. It will be years before you have fluent speakers of one another's language.

Note that the Chinook Jargon evolved over a longstanding contact situation, and you shouldn't expect to have anything so sophisticated right off the bat. Some slaves/prisoners of war/missionaries might help speed things up. At the very least, you could have one of your single members take up with a native woman and start the process.

[Doctor What]

Yeah--but I'm having fun making up the 'tourist miwok', Leo :p

Yeah--I know it was a major stretch but I somehow had a feeling that the people on the forum wouldn't be too crazy to read posts like 'Day 30--managed to learn the word squash--I think. It could be "That's your finger, you moron--why do you keep pointing that at me you freak?!"

[Leo Caesius]

Yeah--I know it was a major stretch but I somehow had a feeling that the people on the forum wouldn't be too crazy to read posts like 'Day 30--managed to learn the word squash--I think. It could be "That's your finger, you moron--why do you keep pointing that at me you freak?!"This is one situation where I'm all for a willfull suspension of disbelief.

You know, you're joking right now, but you're more right than you know. Look at all of the place names allegedly derived from aboriginal languages that mean NOTHING like they're supposed to mean. Or the fact that most of the names for the various native american tribes are actually terms from other languages entirely - usually pejorative ones, too, like "Eskimo."

[Doctor What]

This is one situation where I'm all for a willfull suspension of disbelief.

You know, you're joking right now, but you're more right than you know. Look at all of the place names allegedly derived from aboriginal languages that mean NOTHING like they're supposed to mean. Or the fact that most of the names for the various native american tribes are actually terms from other languages entirely - usually pejorative ones, too, like "Eskimo."

Yeah--Eskimo (meaning 'raw fish eater') and Winnebago (meaning 'people of the dirty water' apparently).

Oh--and my favorite (probably not true but still fun) 'kangaroo' which means (supposedly) "I don't know what that thing is"
:rolleyes:

[Doctor What]

At the very least, you could have one of your single members take up with a native woman and start the process.

Oooooh Matt --we need you to take a bullet for the team...... :p

[Matt]

Oooooh Matt --we need you to take a bullet for the team...... :p

it's actually the one of the reasons why I didn't take one


But how would one get married.. or even know you're married?

[Flocculencio]

Oooooh Matt --we need you to take a bullet for the team...... :p

I was thinking the exact same thing :D