ALT Council Meetings

[Ward]

Mr Chairman

After looking at what we have in seeds for the come crops I hate to say it we will have less then 500 Acres to put in . But the good news is what we will have is a lot of fresh vegtibles . The bad news is we will run out of flour for bread . It will be at less 4 years before we can use any of the wheat we have for anything other then seeds for the next crop . The same with the some of our other crops . We will be light on milk for the next few years but
But we should have enough for children and some chesse .
I will also have to say that most of the crops will have to be but in by hand . As of now we are very short on plows . And we will be forced to build a lot of wood plows to plow the land this year.
So we are going to have to do a lot of fishing and hunting for the next few years .
If we can survive till the first of the crops come in we should be able to make it from here on out . I would of liked to seen more people to have brought more beens and peas with them .

[Glen]

This thread is for the posting of discussion by the council, during council meetings. Please do not post here unless you are a council member, or have been invited to address the council (PM one of us, I'm certain you'll get a good reception).

[Glen]

Mr Chairman

After looking at what we have in seeds for the come crops I hate to say it we will have less then 500 Acres to put in . But the good news is what we will have is a lot of fresh vegtibles . The bad news is we will run out of flour for bread . It will be at less 4 years before we can use any of the wheat we have for anything other then seeds for the next crop .

We should be able to supplement the starches with the potatoe crop. Fish, seaweed, shellfish, local forage in plants and animals will have to make up the difference.

Which brings me to my next question to the council...what are we doing to get fishing started?

The same with the some of our other crops . We will be light on milk for the next few years but
But we should have enough for children and some chesse .

That should do nicely.


I will also have to say that most of the crops will have to be but in by hand . As of now we are very short on plows . And we will be forced to build a lot of wood plows to plow the land this year.

We should look into whether there is anything we can salvage or recycle into plows...what about those sledges that our equipment came on...are they perchance made of metal?

So we are going to have to do a lot of fishing and hunting for the next few years .
If we can survive till the first of the crops come in we should be able to make it from here on out .

Make no mistake, Mr. Ward, we SHALL survive. By God, we will do more than survive...we shall THRIVE! Fishing alone should provide enough nutrition to sustain us...even if it will be a bit monotonous. However, the forage in this land is good, and should nicely supplement that. The only problem I see with forage is that it is rather widely distributed from Doctor What's report, so it will require ever increasing distances to bring in the same amount of food from that source.

I would of liked to seen more people to have brought more beens and peas with them .

That is in the past. We have to make due with what we have now. Are any beans or peas local to the area, I wonder? I have a book on the local plantlife back in my tent...

[pisces74]

Which brings me to my next question to the council...what are we doing to get fishing started?

Moving to the berekly area (sorry couldn't resist)

[Glen]

Doctor What, I do not want to step on your toes with regards to relations with our neighbors, but must we continue to give away items that we, as of yet, are incapable of replacing?

[Glen]

Council members, please give a report on the progress in your respective areas over the first week of the ISOT.

[Norbert]

Mr Chairman:

I have been working and teaching where needed the cutting of lumber. I have the utmost confidence that we will be able to cut a sufficient area for our first crops, and have the resources for building, and fuel for cooking for everyone. When the time comes to expand our plated areas, I am certain we shall have the land cleared to do that. I am pleased to report that many of the people I have been working with have been doing the best they can and are working well together. I have several men working that will be able to work as teachers and foremen for the amount of work that needs to be done, and we are quickly getting back into the best physical condition most of have been in in years. Even though they must be as tired as I am, they have been working without complaint, and they know how important the work they are doing is. I hope that soon, only those who wish to remain lumbermen will do the cutting, freeing up the rest to do all the other work that needs to be done. I think I speak for those I have been working with, saying that we will persevere and survive in this world the pesky little buggers have thrown us into!

[Ghost 88]

Council members, please give a report on the progress in your respective areas over the first week of the ISOT.
In the Law Enforcement area other than taking custody of Rommy. The accused perpetrator of the two homicides and seeing to his incarciration and upkeep,nothing much to report.I've taken a few youngsters by their ears to their parents to discipline for peeing in places other than the latrines. Also encountered people who said they say a person load up machine guns and leave camp on day one. Now knowing that to some people any thing that shoots is an MG, I could use any information on this. All in all except for the killings things have been rather quite.Been helping the Rangers with there training when I can,and will continue as time permits.

[Doctor What]

Doctor What, I do not want to step on your toes with regards to relations with our neighbors, but must we continue to give away items that we, as of yet, are incapable of replacing?

No offense taken, Mr. Chairman. My report is as follows:

The gifts to the natives --not to beat about the bush --were essentially a one-time bribe. We have established in their minds that we are a rather large group with many items and much knowledge. We have also now established that we wish to be friends with them--or, at the very least, 'not enemies'. We now await their final decision.

As I see it, there are three possible scenarios:

1) Scenario one-Trading partners/friends. The natives in the area have--as you yourself noted--a great deal of knowledge of the area and indigenous animal/plant life. Knowledge that can be of use to the Group. Even if all that is derived from the relationship are seeds/cuttings of the various medicinal plant they use, the 'loss' of a handful of items will have been worth it. In addition, I choose items that, for the most part, we will have the ability to replicate or replace to some degree (blankets, pottery, wooden bowls) within the next few years. If our blacksmith knowledge can be re-created (as some members believe), then even crude metal items can be made soon. I also wish to take this opportunity to note that I am uncomfortable with any further trading of weaponary to the natives unless it is done in a strictly enforced and limited manner. While I believe we have nothing to fear from Ahmik's people, weapons oftentimes have a habit of ending up in the hands of enemies. Further trade will most probably be consisted of raw materials (stone, lumber, etc), foodstuffs (the natives have access to a wide variety of seeds, nuts, roots and berries--items that we can consume outright or attempt to grow as crops) and crafts from both sides. Furthermore, even if trade is highly limited, friendship with the group will be rewarding in itself. We will be able to learn more about the tribes that live in this area (thereby preventing further misunderstandings), have improved language skills and, perhaps, even create an alliance with several different tribes for the purposes of mutual trade, defense and cultural exchange.

2) Scenario two is neutrality. In essence--'we don't bother you; you don't bother us'. Ahmik's people may decide to give us a wide berth and give us no further knowledge other than which territory belongs to which tribe. This neutrality is also of great usefulness to the Group, as we now have at least one group that has agreed to leave us alone. Having knowledge of areas where future farmers, miners and lumberjacks may enter and not be in fear of their lives will be of immense use to the growth of our small group.

3) Scenario three--open hostility. I personally find this scenario highly unlikely -at least in regards to Ahmik's people. They are aware of our size and strength and our weapons. Worse case scenario is that they will ambush small groups travelling unprotected. Any attacks on bigger or better protected groups will be doomed to failure--and they will know it. As noted, I find this unlikely in the extreme--short of another misunderstanding, Ahmik's people have no reason to attack us openly.

[Ghost 88]

Four proposed laws 1) we don't tug on Supermans cape.
2) we don't spit in the wind.
3) we dont take the mask off the old Lone Ranger
4) and we don't mess around with Jim;)

[Psychomeltdown]

Mr. Chairman

Regarding the work that has been done over the course of the week,

The Herders have been successfully keeping the Cattle and Sheep in order. Though there has been evidence of predators sniffing about, there has yet to be any deaths among the Herd Animals. Due to the fact that there were other items that needed doing, I handed over control of the Herd Animals and their well being to Dave Howery and his wife, until we reach Ianopolis or they wish to resign.

Although the Herd Animals have been doing well, Horses on the other hand are a different matter. Just recently I was forced to put down a horse because it had a broken leg. The accident was caused by the inexperienced and reckless activities of the rider. The carcass of the horse was butchered and it’s meat handed out to the community. I suggest that this individual be barred from handling any animal in the near future.

There has also been some irresponsibility in the caring and the feeding of the horses and other animals in the community. Many people lacked the necessary skills to care for their animals and many more were too stubborn or short sighted to allow for their animals to be released into the communal herds.

Due to this lack of knowledge among the community members, I decided to retrieve all the animals that were in the custody of individuals and place them within the Communal Herds. Although this may have been going a bit far, my main concern was the well-being of the animals and not the personal thoughts of the owners.

Already we’ve lost a horse, we’ve hand many more injured or mishandled. We cannot replace these animals, therefore we cannot allow for them to be mishandled by men and women who have never handled a large or medium animal before.

Upon more thinking, it occurred to me that we will be needing a core of men and women who know how to care and handle the animals that we have. It will be a long time coming before everyone is able to have an animal for themselves, therefore at the time being we need quasi professionals to care for the animals.

I have attempted a recruiting drive to find out how many men and women are willing to learn the skills needed to handle the animals that we have in our care. So far we have only thirty plus students who are willing to learn. We have been attempting to teach them the basics of animal care and handling, though none of us are professionals we are doing the best we can with the resources we have.

The current plan is to create a department which handles the maintenance and allocation of all animals in the Herds. Again, we will not have enough animals to go around for a long time, therefore we need to make sure the ones we have are well cared for. The main concern right now is the Draft Animals, making sure they’re well cared for, making sure they’re not overworked, strained, injured, or abused in any way. Teamsters are being trained to help in the handling of the Draft Animals and we hope to train up a few vets, using the information that many had brought on animal care, physiology, and biology, though that may be at a later date.


Beyond the care for animals and starting up a training session for those that wish to handle the animals, I have also taken responsibility for providing water to the camp, from the river. We are using a windmill pump, kindly provided by Ward and his family, to fill jugs and other containers and haul it back to camp. The work is hard and laborious, but it is necessary and from what I’ve been seeing going fairly well.

Thank you,

Psychomeltdown

[jolo]

The barter market helped people trade some goods in a central place. It also kept fresh foods from rotting.

Informal trading has apparently been on the rise during this week - people realise more and more, what they need and what not.

The introduction of a little weekly allowance has been a success - it gives people some more motivation, and it allows them to let others do some of the chores they really don't like to do. Food prices were very high at the beginning to avoid hoarding, but could be lowered after the big hunt delivered quite some food. The market is filling with products. So far, no-one opted out of communal work - the private stuff is done on the side. Food is mainly bought by people who want to cook something themselves.

Statistics about the food deliveries of our hunters, gatherers, and fishermen are in the making.

[Ghost 88]

Missed putting this on report. A man named Soyuz was questioned on a shooting incident at the same time as the "Rommy Killings" as he seemed more in shock about it than the victim I confiscated Soyuz's weapons and released him on his own regog. As soon as a prosecutor or judge will file charges,I can arrest him so he can be charged. Soyuz has been helping the man he wounded to get what the man needs that he can't on his own. It is fortunate for both parties that it was a small wound about an Inch long maybe a half inch deep. My wife whois a Nurse Practiciner put sevaral stitches and doesn"t beleive the victim will be off his feet for more than a week. My recommendment is to charge Soyuz with reckless endangerment and as PART of his punishment be given extensive firearms training till I and at least two of the senior Rangers are satisfied he knows how to control a weapon safely.

[Gerard-ABC]

Mr. Chairman

My construction teams have been working on making wagons for the move to the new settlement.

With Norbert's help and advice, we've got approx 50 people working. Some are logging, the rest are working on the production line for the wagons.

1st ten wagons are in use for the water distribution. The rest are for the move.

Starting Day 8, we hope to increase to 10 wagons a day. Maybe 12 is possible once everyone has enough practice on the production line. Each wagon has 4 spare wheels, and 2 spare axles. Just in case of any problems during the move. If they're not needed, then we'll find a use for them in the future.

By the time we have enough wagons for the move, my 3 managers will be able to handle all of the wagon construction with their crew chiefs.

I'm currently set up as:
1 manager is helping with the logging.
2 managers are running the production line.

8 crew chiefs, who each look after 5 work teams.

3 teams are cutting wood
5 are working on the wagon constuction line.

Note : Myself, ALL managers and crew chiefs do some wagon building and logging. To keep in practice, and let the work crew see us working as hard as them. We also do the maintenace on the tools, and search for suitable new trees to cut down.

I expect that we'll be leaving 1 of them working on wagons, as we'll probably be needing specialised wagons in the future. The other 2 managers and myself expect to move on to house / building construction. Plan is to have 40 of us working on that, perhaps 45 if we need fewer wagons at the time.

My aim is that we'll provide specialised help, for those who are not able to do their own construction, and for larger community projects. Also expect to start training more people on construction.

There is some overlap with Norbert's logging people, but that's only been positive to all of us. We've learnt a lot.


Regards,
Gerard

[Psychomeltdown]

Fellow Council Members,

I do not think that I'm the first person to think this and several have already vocalized their opinions upon this manner, but something has to be done about Fort Ian and it's settlement.

It has been eight days and they are still declaring themselves as a separate settlement, yet they're still in the main group, they're pursuing activities in which logistically they will be completely unable to complete. They're stretching themselves too far, they're creating a situation in which the only outcome may be their own demise.

At the least, this is a reckless and dangerous behavior. 272 lives are on the line here, nearly a third of them children.

We as a people cannot allow this to come to pass. We but a small group and we should be looking out for the survival of all, not the individual. Therefore I am hoping the Council more than just queries the Mayor of Ft. Ian, but actually investigates what they are doing and what is possible or impossible due to their small numbers.

Again I strongly urge the Council to look into these matters.

Thank you,

Psychomeltdown

[jolo]

I, as a member of the people who (so far) want to stay, don't see any reason to consider this statement more than populist nonsense.

- Smaller settlements have survived and prospered

- Fishing is necessary and possible

- Farming is necessary and possible

- Gardening is necessary and possible

- Boat-building is necessary and possible

- Once our food supply is stable, we will have no problems to produce salt, which is also necessary, and here easier to get than at your place

- There are lots of ressources in the hills around Fort Monty, which will also be needed soon. Once farming produces enough food, we can put a lot of effort into extracting those, otherwise we may have to wait for decades to access them.

- Our chances to survive more than double by splitting up

- Fishing, farming and more is necessary now, not later

- Competition will be good for both sides

- Waiting with farming and other activities for more than 2 months while food only lasts for 1 month is a bigger problem

- We are superior in numbers and weapons to all surrounding tribes, attacks by them won't be a big problem

- We can access more ressources and land by splitting up, thus increasing our potential

[Psychomeltdown]

I would hope that the Council gathers a full Logistic report from the Fort Ian settlement, not just some declarations of what THEY PLAN TO DO.

[SionEwig]

ALL OOC - (sorry Glen)

Snipped a bunch of stuff that I'm not wanting to get into.





- There are lots of ressources in the hills around Fort Monty, which will also be needed soon. Once farming produces enough food, we can put a lot of effort into extracting those, otherwise we may have to wait for decades to access them.


Jolo,

Not challenging you here, but out of honest curiosity, what resources are you referring to and could you give more exacting locations (even if you make references to landmarks on modern maps - like road intersections - it would be of help).

[jolo]

ALL OOC - (sorry Glen)

Snipped a bunch of stuff that I'm not wanting to get into.



Jolo,

Not challenging you here, but out of honest curiosity, what resources are you referring to and could you give more exacting locations (even if you make references to landmarks on modern maps - like road intersections - it would be of help).

I made the effort to look it up:

http://www.consrv.ca.gov/cgs/minerals/images/YellowMap.pdf

We are the only place in the area with clay - desperately needed. We also have Magnesium (useful later), limestone, and "stone" nearby. Berkeley only shows stone and shale.

Also, this is just a production map - exhausted and untapped resources are not shown. There should be some useful differences in those, too...

Edit: I just looked up the uses of limestone - it's needed for paper, for glass, and for lots of other things. It also is easy to handle and to process, and it usually contains a lot of other useful minerals which are apparently easy to separate.

[Glen]

Four proposed laws 1) we don't tug on Supermans cape.
2) we don't spit in the wind.
3) we dont take the mask off the old Lone Ranger
4) and we don't mess around with Jim;)

Well, at least our sheriff has a sense of humor.

[jolo]

Well, at least our sheriff has a sense of humor.

Sorry, sometimes I can't resist tugging on Superman's cape... :D

[Glen]

Mr. Chairman

Regarding the work that has been done over the course of the week,

The Herders have been successfully keeping the Cattle and Sheep in order. Though there has been evidence of predators sniffing about, there has yet to be any deaths among the Herd Animals. Due to the fact that there were other items that needed doing, I handed over control of the Herd Animals and their well being to Dave Howery and his wife, until we reach Ianopolis or they wish to resign.

Although the Herd Animals have been doing well, Horses on the other hand are a different matter. Just recently I was forced to put down a horse because it had a broken leg. The accident was caused by the inexperienced and reckless activities of the rider. The carcass of the horse was butchered and it’s meat handed out to the community. I suggest that this individual be barred from handling any animal in the near future.

There has also been some irresponsibility in the caring and the feeding of the horses and other animals in the community. Many people lacked the necessary skills to care for their animals and many more were too stubborn or short sighted to allow for their animals to be released into the communal herds.

Due to this lack of knowledge among the community members, I decided to retrieve all the animals that were in the custody of individuals and place them within the Communal Herds. Although this may have been going a bit far, my main concern was the well-being of the animals and not the personal thoughts of the owners.

Already we’ve lost a horse, we’ve hand many more injured or mishandled. We cannot replace these animals, therefore we cannot allow for them to be mishandled by men and women who have never handled a large or medium animal before.

Upon more thinking, it occurred to me that we will be needing a core of men and women who know how to care and handle the animals that we have. It will be a long time coming before everyone is able to have an animal for themselves, therefore at the time being we need quasi professionals to care for the animals.

I have attempted a recruiting drive to find out how many men and women are willing to learn the skills needed to handle the animals that we have in our care. So far we have only thirty plus students who are willing to learn. We have been attempting to teach them the basics of animal care and handling, though none of us are professionals we are doing the best we can with the resources we have.

The current plan is to create a department which handles the maintenance and allocation of all animals in the Herds. Again, we will not have enough animals to go around for a long time, therefore we need to make sure the ones we have are well cared for. The main concern right now is the Draft Animals, making sure they’re well cared for, making sure they’re not overworked, strained, injured, or abused in any way. Teamsters are being trained to help in the handling of the Draft Animals and we hope to train up a few vets, using the information that many had brought on animal care, physiology, and biology, though that may be at a later date.


Beyond the care for animals and starting up a training session for those that wish to handle the animals, I have also taken responsibility for providing water to the camp, from the river. We are using a windmill pump, kindly provided by Ward and his family, to fill jugs and other containers and haul it back to camp. The work is hard and laborious, but it is necessary and from what I’ve been seeing going fairly well.

Thank you,

Psychomeltdown

I am quite happy to have Dave Howrey and his wife handling the herds. Please feel free to establish assistance as you need in the handling of your duties, but we need a report on the numbers of people you will require for driving the herds to the new site, and for the foreseeable future in maintaining the herd. Thank you also for the organization of the efforts for veterinary aid. I'll help as needed, of course, but I'm not a vet.

As for the necessity of taking the animals for proper handling, I wish you would have approached the council for a vote before proceding. Did you at least follow my recommendation that a record be kept of who had the animals? (OOC: Better say yes...I know you would have had hell to pay from me at least if you took my animals and didn't even record it) I think perhaps arranging a system for evaluating a person's ability to care for their animals should be instituted after the move, so that those who do have the necessary experience and wish to maintain their animals separately may do so. It would also be good to institute at some point training programs in animal care and handling for those without experience but desiring it. The reckless individual you cited, for example, should be banned...until such time as he has satisfied you or your designated appointee of his ability to handle an animal in future (and assuming he can buy one later, since he has already lost his own). Of course, such decisions could be appealed to a judge and jury, but its good that we have checks and balances.

How is the efforts to plan for fishing going with GBW? I consider this an absolutely vital necessity for our viability over the next year, and probably for the foreseeable future beyond that.

[Glen]

The barter market helped people trade some goods in a central place. It also kept fresh foods from rotting.

Informal trading has apparently been on the rise during this week - people realise more and more, what they need and what not.

The introduction of a little weekly allowance has been a success - it gives people some more motivation, and it allows them to let others do some of the chores they really don't like to do. Food prices were very high at the beginning to avoid hoarding, but could be lowered after the big hunt delivered quite some food. The market is filling with products. So far, no-one opted out of communal work - the private stuff is done on the side. Food is mainly bought by people who want to cook something themselves.

Statistics about the food deliveries of our hunters, gatherers, and fishermen are in the making.

So as intended, the market is serving as a supplement to our main efforts for now, and setting the seeds for more in future...good.

How is the census and inventory proceeding? This is absolutely necessary for our ability to discern the size of our actual and potential economy, and for pegging the value of that currency you brought. I really would advise, however, not handing out TOO much of that currency until we have those numbers.

[jolo]

So as intended, the market is serving as a supplement to our main efforts for now, and setting the seeds for more in future...good.

How is the census and inventory proceeding? This is absolutely necessary for our ability to discern the size of our actual and potential economy, and for pegging the value of that currency you brought. I really would advise, however, not handing out TOO much of that currency until we have those numbers.

Can't say much about census and inventory - not my duty yet. As only little money is circulated (a weekly pay for everyone working) and nearly all the money comes right back through the community market at community prices, inflation or deflation is no problem - we just adapt the prices to make sure people have a choice and foods in danger of rotting and not used by the community kitchens go away quickly.

[Glen]

Missed putting this on report. A man named Soyuz was questioned on a shooting incident at the same time as the "Rommy Killings" as he seemed more in shock about it than the victim I confiscated Soyuz's weapons and released him on his own regog. As soon as a prosecutor or judge will file charges,I can arrest him so he can be charged. Soyuz has been helping the man he wounded to get what the man needs that he can't on his own. It is fortunate for both parties that it was a small wound about an Inch long maybe a half inch deep. My wife whois a Nurse Practiciner put sevaral stitches and doesn"t beleive the victim will be off his feet for more than a week. My recommendment is to charge Soyuz with reckless endangerment and as PART of his punishment be given extensive firearms training till I and at least two of the senior Rangers are satisfied he knows how to control a weapon safely.

So THAT'S why Soyuz has been keeping a low profile...but it sounds like this was more a firearms accident than an actual assault? If so, and the wounded party doesn't wish to file charges, I think his making recompense and taking the firearms lessons should be enough. Run it past one of our judges and if they give you an okay, let's leave it at that...

As for your wife, congratualations! She just got a scholarship to medical school...

[Glen]

Can't say much about census and inventory - not my duty yet. As only little money is circulated (a weekly pay for everyone working) and nearly all the money comes right back through the community market at community prices, inflation or deflation is no problem - we just adapt the prices to make sure people have a choice and foods in danger of rotting and not used by the community kitchens go away quickly.

For the money allocated so far...okay.

However, the census and inventory are DEFINITELY under your department. I don't expect you personally to be out there doing it, but I expect you to be organizing it and tracking its progress, absolutely!

Now then, please revise your report and tell us the progress of the census and inventory. I have sent several people who volunteered laptops (especially the wind-ups) and other resources for this effort. I want everyone who is leaving in the first wave to have their skills, numbers, and equipment noted before leaving here. I want all the people who are staying here at Fort Ian to have the same before WE leave here. This is as vital an effort as anything else we are doing. The ability to know what our assets actually are and how to access them can mean the difference between success and failure for any number of endeavors, some of which might be life and death.

If you want this project assigned under someone in particular, fine. But you will be responsible for reporting their progress to us.

[Glen]

Science and Technology, there are two impending shortages that I am very concerned about; paper and ammunition. Paper is vital for our ability to carry on society at a literate, higher organized level of sophistication. Ammunition of course is necessary to continue our advantage in terms of self defense (more from wild animals and possible rogue uptimers) and superior hunting capacity.

What is being done on these fronts, and what do we need for success?

Also, we will need sometime in the near future, probably after the move, to start a general chemistry lab, with an emphasis on organic chemistry. We'll need to requisition any stainless steel sinks and tubs from the apartment complex as well as stainless steel containers and pyrex glass containers for chemical production. Rubber or plastic tubing as well. I don't know how much we can do with regards to refrigeration, at least for the lab, but that would be an added benefit if possible.

Ward, I'm going to need one or two of our best gardeners to be responsible for establishing our medicinal gardens. This should be done as quickly as possible upon our arrival at the main settlement site. The ASBs gave us a little breathing space with their clearing of diseases, but it won't last long.

[Glen]

Doctor What, the progress with Ahmick's tribe is of course important, but given the distance separating them from our main settlement area, won't they be of more importance to Ian's Fort? Perhaps we can leave someone here to continue that work.

My question is, how generelizable will our progress here be to our main settlement location, and shouldn't we be sending an advanced team from the Rangers and your department to replicate some of these efforts with groups closer to there?

[Glen]

Psychomeltdown, I too am concerned with the people staying at Ian's Fort. While they may be separated from us by 1-3 days travel, they are still part of the general community. We will do everything we can to give them the best opportunities to survive and continue ties with the main settlement.

While being 20 miles upstream may not be optimal for a fishing village, it wouldn't be the oddest such situation in history. And they may be right, if not in the time frame optimistically presented, in terms of further resource utilization in this area. Clay does seem to be a resource here we could use for export to the main settlement. I am also somewhat comforted that the water route will be workably fast enough for continued communications and coordination between the sites.

I still wish they would all come with us for now. If there are things worthwhile to come back for, we could have some do that at a later date. But it is their choice, and indeed in a democracy that is a good thing. Though I suspect in the end the majority might be right, there is always the chance that the minority is correct, and thus the ability to explore different paths is a worthwhile one, so long as enough resources are kept for the main effort to not endanger it.

[Psychomeltdown]

I am quite happy to have Dave Howrey and his wife handling the herds. Please feel free to establish assistance as you need in the handling of your duties, but we need a report on the numbers of people you will require for driving the herds to the new site, and for the foreseeable future in maintaining the herd. Thank you also for the organization of the efforts for veterinary aid. I'll help as needed, of course, but I'm not a vet.

We are trying to train as many people as we can in the methods and ways of caring for animals, especially the Draft Animals. I’ve given my estimation on how many personnel I will need to effectively care for the animals we have.

Here are the numbers i came up with, (http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=387896&postcount=113) it's posted in the "What's the Plan" thread. Hopefully it’s doable, I think we can safely assume the numbers will be about the same when we’re going on the Great Trek Northward, though we’ll probably need a little more help handling the pigs. All the horses and oxen by then should be used as draft animals, Ranger mounts, or Herd Mounts.


As for the necessity of taking the animals for proper handling, I wish you would have approached the council for a vote before proceeding. Did you at least follow my recommendation that a record be kept of who had the animals? (OOC: Better say yes...I know you would have had hell to pay from me at least if you took my animals and didn't even record it) I think perhaps arranging a system for evaluating a person's ability to care for their animals should be instituted after the move, so that those who do have the necessary experience and wish to maintain their animals separately may do so. It would also be good to institute at some point training programs in animal care and handling for those without experience but desiring it. The reckless individual you cited, for example, should be banned...until such time as he has satisfied you or your designated appointee of his ability to handle an animal in future (and assuming he can buy one later, since he has already lost his own). Of course, such decisions could be appealed to a judge and jury, but its good that we have checks and balances.

Due to the chaos and lack of established leadership in the beginning, I was forced to act in what I considered the best interest of the animals. Food, water, and a calm environment were needed, not animals defecating and causing problems within the Camp. Therefore my actions to move and secure the animals before they were harmed or caused harm.

I did write down the names of those who gave up their animals and what animal they gave up (OOC: I though I had written that in the Day One, but on further looking, seems I didn’t). Unfortunately due to the fact that things were chaotic in the beginning, I was only able to record what type of animal they had given up, not the identifying marks or names of the animals.

Classes have begun for those that wish to learn to handle and care for the animals, these will hopefully become the full time animal caretakers until a time comes when it is possible to break up the herds for individual ownership. Those that wish to learn can come and learn.

How is the efforts to plan for fishing going with GBW? I consider this an absolutely vital necessity for our viability over the next year, and probably for the foreseeable future beyond that.

Unfortunately I have not yet met with Mr. GBW in regards to setting up a fishing site. I agree that this is a necessary thing, but as I have been busy with my other duties and this is basically the first time I’ve been informed that Fishing falls under my management.

I will contact GBW (OOC: I though it was Grimm?) and see what can be arranged. This will mean more manpower diverted from other areas, though and unfortunately I’ve never fished in my life, so I will be counting on the experience and knowledge of other people when it comes to this endeavor.

[Glen]

I believe, under the circumstances, noting the number and type of animal will do. Presumably the ASB beasties weren't that different from each other in quality...

OOC: I thought its GBW, but whichever, get the guy with the most boating/fishing experience and get them to work. Sorry, I had hoped this would be a separate council position but the community voted otherwise...

[Doctor What]

Doctor What, the progress with Ahmick's tribe is of course important, but given the distance separating them from our main settlement area, won't they be of more importance to Ian's Fort? Perhaps we can leave someone here to continue that work.

I am hoping that the settlement at Ian's Fort changes their mind and eventually follows us. However, regarding your question, Ahmick and his tribe are aware of the 'Ian Fort settlement' and Ahmick has made the journey between the two places twice already. Any trading that may occur will be with them primarily --although there is the possibility that other Miwok bands may exist that are are closer to the main settlement--in which case both groups could benefit. If the Fort settlement continues to stay, a few meetings between Ahmick and a few representatives can be easily arranged to facilitate the process.

My question is, how generelizable will our progress here be to our main settlement location, and shouldn't we be sending an advanced team from the Rangers and your department to replicate some of these efforts with groups closer to there?

Difficult to say at this point how generalizable our efforts will be. While we have made astounding progress, we are still flying quite blind. We will continue to use Ahmik for several reasons:

-Translator/interpretor.
Ahmik's knowledge of our language and our knowledge of his can only continue to grow. While the possibility does exist that neighbouring tribes may speak completely different languages (and in my opinion, is almost a certainty), the fact that limited trading exists between many groups indicates to me that either there exists some kind of 'trade lingo' or that certain members of various tribes can speak two or more languages. Either way--using Ahmik's people as a 'go-between' could be a distinct possibility for the forseenable future

-Guide.
We do not know, for example, how far the territory of the 'Coast Miwok' extends, nor which tribes are on cordial terms with them nor which ones are on hostile terms with them. Ahmik's people (and presumably Ahmik himself) will know this information. I have been attempting to acquire such information from Ahmik (with limited success) for several days now--presumably now that we have him with us on this journey this information will be more easily communicated to us. Sending an advanced team northwards while the rangers stayed at Ahmik's village would have been an ideal plan but we are faced with many factors that prevented us from using this--the time crunch we are under to start sending the first wave of settlers northwards, for starters, as well as many other unknown dangers. Additionally, this plan would have necessatated splitting the scout group--an idea that both myself and MBarry were uncomfortable for different reasons (MBarry from a military point of view of protecting two widely separated small groups rather than one close-knit group; myself for the fact that two groups doubles the chances of additional cultural misunderstandings).

Unfortunately, like it or not, the scout/survey mission may also have to do additional duty as 'first contact' team. Fortunately, with Ahmik telling us which places to avoid, his relationship (if any) he may have with neighbouring tribes and Leo & myself's growing knowledge of their language and customs, such contacts may have a good chance of turning out well. And if we are set upon or ambushed by additional hostile tribes, then our relative large force will protect us (indeed--our large group may in fact scare some of the hostile groups into giving us a wide berth and avoid a repeat of what happened to the first scouting mission).

[Ward]

I move that we divide the members into three tribes and give them each a diffrent day off during the week .

Also I belive we need to have a dance on Day 9 evening .

[Glen]

I move that we divide the members into three tribes and give them each a diffrent day off during the week .

Also I belive we need to have a dance on Day 9 evening .

Feel free to assign three different days of rest...but it won't be anything like three different tribes...we are one people! Try to keep families having the same day off, and accomodate where possible religious preferences, though it appears we have a predominance of christians, so Sunday will be a bit popular, if not always available. Maybe some of them can be switched over after a while to give others a chance.

A Dance on Day 9 would be quite nice, and I heartily support the effort.

Anyone on the council have any objection to these?

[Ward]

Feel free to assign three different days of rest...but it won't be anything like three different tribes...we are one people! Try to keep families having the same day off, and accomodate where possible religious preferences, though it appears we have a predominance of christians, so Sunday will be a bit popular, if not always available. Maybe some of them can be switched over after a while to give others a chance.

A Dance on Day 9 would be quite nice, and I heartily support the effort.

Anyone on the council have any objection to these?


Clans , Tribes , Neigborhoods , What ever . But this way not everyone whould have the Same day off . And we would always have 2/3 of the people working .

[Doctor What]

Anyone on the council have any objection to these?

None whatsoever--except that it would be nice to throw a little party for the scouting mission when we come back too...

[Forum Lurker]

We should probably get some kind of calendar up and running, for holidays if nothing else. I and mine can go by a lunar calendar, and pick a convenient month in which to have started, but those of you who want an Easter are going to have to decide the actual solar date at some point.

[Othniel]

We should probably get some kind of calendar up and running, for holidays if nothing else. I and mine can go by a lunar calendar, and pick a convenient month in which to have started, but those of you who want an Easter are going to have to decide the actual solar date at some point.
Not really. Easter should fall on the sixth of nissan...or was that the day of the cruxifiction? Alls I know is that its the first sunday after passover on a jewish calender.

[Glen]

I'd like to poll the council on the question of requisitioning large animals from those who will be staying behind at Fort Ian for use in the initial stages of the great trek.

They will get credit in the community coffers for their use, and the animals will be returned once people and the most vital materials for the settlement have been shipped.

[Psychomeltdown]

I'd like to poll the council on the question of requisitioning large animals from those who will be staying behind at Fort Ian for use in the initial stages of the great trek.

They will get credit in the community coffers for their use, and the animals will be returned once people and the most vital materials for the settlement have been shipped.
I Vote; NO.

Mainly since the poor sods at Fort Ian will be needing them more than we do. They can't release them for more than a week, and we're looking at possibly two months of moving.

though I'm not a fan of the Fort Ian settlement and would gladly Like for us to absorb it, they seem intent on staying. And due to their small numbers they'll be needing everything that can haul, carry, pull, to even make it. Unlike the Main Settlement, they're lacking a lot of the things we have. In fact they'll probably need more Draft Animals, if they want to do half the things they're planning.

[Ward]

I Vote; NO.

Mainly since the poor sods at Fort Ian will be needing them more than we do. They can't release them for more than a week, and we're looking at possibly two months of moving.

though I'm not a fan of the Fort Ian settlement and would gladly Like for us to absorb it, they seem intent on staying. And due to their small numbers they'll be needing everything that can haul, carry, pull, to even make it. Unlike the Main Settlement, they're lacking a lot of the things we have. In fact they'll probably need more Draft Animals, if they want to do half the things they're planning.



I have to agree with Pych on this I also vote No

[Norbert]

I'd like to poll the council on the question of requisitioning large animals from those who will be staying behind at Fort Ian for use in the initial stages of the great trek.

They will get credit in the community coffers for their use, and the animals will be returned once people and the most vital materials for the settlement have been shipped.

Though I agree that they would be very useful, I agree with Psycho in that Fort Ian will need them more desperatley than we do for the Trek.

[Glen]

Well, I've been thinking further on this, and have perhaps another solution.

We have a lag before our available wagons will outnumber our available teams.

What if we granted extra large animals and labor to the Fort Ian group to get their crops in ASAP. They are a much smaller group. How quickly could we get their initial planting in, Ward?

The idea would be a win-win for both groups. Fort Ian folk get help early on to get their own crops in the ground, more than they could do with their own resources. This in turn frees up their large animals for wagon duty once our wagon production warrants it.

Is this a workable plan?

[Norbert]

Well, I've been thinking further on this, and have perhaps another solution.

We have a lag before our available wagons will outnumber our available teams.

What if we granted extra large animals and labor to the Fort Ian group to get their crops in ASAP. They are a much smaller group. How quickly could we get their initial planting in, Ward?

The idea would be a win-win for both groups. Fort Ian folk get help early on to get their own crops in the ground, more than they could do with their own resources. This in turn frees up their large animals for wagon duty once our wagon production warrants it.

Is this a workable plan?

My suggestion is their planting a mininum of 160 acres (1/4 mile x 1/4 mile). This should give them sufficient harvest even with lack of knowledge on some peoples part on farming. They will also have a start at raw materials for building permenant structures, and I was teaching basics of squaring and splitting wood for building using the tools I brought. I also figured most of these tools would move with the first or second group of settlers. Logs were to be held together primarily with wood pis when necessary (after all, some of the Japanese wooden buildings were built using zero metal fasteners. Its just a little more time consuming!).

[Glen]

My suggestion is their planting a mininum of 160 acres (1/4 mile x 1/4 mile). This should give them sufficient harvest even with lack of knowledge on some peoples part on farming. They will also have a start at raw materials for building permenant structures, and I was teaching basics of squaring and splitting wood for building using the tools I brought. I also figured most of these tools would move with the first or second group of settlers. Logs were to be held together primarily with wood pis when necessary (after all, some of the Japanese wooden buildings were built using zero metal fasteners. Its just a little more time consuming!).

Sounds reasonable. How about my proposal of trading help putting in their first planting now for use of their animals during the Great Trek (and really, just the main push, not the whole thing)? Does this sound doable?

[Psychomeltdown]

I was thinking of something along these lines too, It could give our own workers some experience in building, planting, and all the other stuff. Make them slightly more skilled for when they head to Ianopplis.

[Ward]

I've asked about planting some food earlier but was told not to .

[Norbert]

Sounds reasonable. How about my proposal of trading help putting in their first planting now for use of their animals during the Great Trek (and really, just the main push, not the whole thing)? Does this sound doable?

I was really hoping that that is what was being done already. I am all for getting people more experience in what needs to be done, which is part of the reason I pulled so many people before the Great Hunt. Not all of the wood cut at that time would have gone towards curing meat, building wagons, and fueling camp fires. I figure there is quite a bit of wood that is being prepared for building already, probably enough to at least build the homes at Fort Ian, or there will be by the time we move out completely. And by that time, they will have the experience to build their barns and other storage, as well as be able to start building a palisade (which I would recommend Strongly).

[Norbert]

I've asked about planting some food earlier but was told not to .

As to that, I think a mistake was made, I certainly would not have said no. But it is one that can be corrected before it is not possible to correct it.

"The only way not to make the same mistake twice, is to learn from the first time"

[Psychomeltdown]

As to that, I think a mistake was made, I certainly would not have said no. But it is one that can be corrected before it is not possible to correct it.

"The only way not to make the same mistake twice, is to learn from the first time"
actually I think it was said not to plant the foods that we'll be needing, such as the seeds we'll be taking along for OUR crops. We can help out the Fort Ians and help them clear and plant THIER seeds.

Plus I'll prove a good training groud for all the massed unskilled labor we have.


Could we also divert some labor to making a solid dock and facilities for the Fort Ians? Damn it, why did General Paul leave? We could have used him here...:(

[jolo]

Sorry for not being in the game for 2 days. I'm in a developed country with worse internet access than most developing countries I've been in atm.

Helping now and taking some of the animals for some time would be a good deal imo. Especially I believe you will profit from that, too.

What we need right now is some irrigation/small dams, some more removal of tree stumps, some paths to lead our animals to clearings, and so on.

Most people already did plant parts of their seeds in makeshift fields (1 row of field alternating with 1 row of tree stumps, clearings, and so on. Some of those places will need water in the summer.

If someone other than Psychomeltdown can make a useful offer for exchanging animals so that we can specialise a little more, that would also be ok.

I try to come back asap.

[Norbert]

Helping now and taking some of the animals for some time would be a good deal imo. Especially I believe you will profit from that, too.

If someone other than Psychomeltdown can make a useful offer for exchanging animals so that we can specialise a little more, that would also be ok.

What might your idea for an exchange be?

[Glen]

We weren't planting earlier because we were hoping to convince everyone to come. Now that that isn't happening, a trade of labor/animals for a time would be appropriate. (OOC: Assume a lot of this conversation happened just after the decision to go to the main settlement).

[Norbert]

Then we just need to remember that the animals are the property of the people who brought them. If they wish to trade, then so be it. (OOC, I do not think it will be a problem though, we can probably figure that deals can be made).
I am concerned with the future of the Llamas, though. Not long before we were put here (December), I watched a program on searching for the City of Gold of the Incas, and the animal handlers stated that the Llamas could not do well in hot weather. Eventually, when some people go to the mountains, they should be all right, but until then...

[Psychomeltdown]

Then we just need to remember that the animals are the property of the people who brought them. If they wish to trade, then so be it. [/quote[

The best course of action i've concluded is the complete requisitioning of all large and medium animals by the Council. As i've said when I took the animals into the communal herds, is that you've been basically credited an animal that you've brought and when we get our numbers back up and when we've established ourselves beyond a subsistent style of living, then the an animal of the same species will be returned to the owner, until then they stay with men and women who at least know how to care for them.

for now the survival of the animals is what's important.



[quote]I am concerned with the future of the Llamas, though. Not long before we were put here (December), I watched a program on searching for the City of Gold of the Incas, and the animal handlers stated that the Llamas could not do well in hot weather. Eventually, when some people go to the mountains, they should be all right, but until then... weather is not extremely hot in SFB, but at the Fort Ian site, its' a lot hotter.

[Psychomeltdown]

As for trade with Fort Ian, I've suggested we trade Pigs with them.

After all, pigs are the hardy type and in a few years they can increase their numbers dramatically.

As I've said to Jolo when we first tried to trade, it's what the animal can produce that makes it valuable.

Cattle will take a long time to produce anything, we just don't have the numbers yet.

Donkeys, can carry stuff, therefore are useful, but we need a large breeding pool, therefore we'll trade you for it.

llamas, too hot in your area, though if they are trained, they make excellent guard animals. Shepherds use them to guard their sheep. hell, they had them back home.

[Grimm Reaper]

I agree that a breakup into several smaller communities would be wisest, although we might consider several smaller outposts linking the major communities as well.

As to animal reproduction, we should start this at once, even if this costs us the use of many of our draft animals. Sadly the draft animals have the longest period to reproduce towards valuable numbers, so must not waste time. Sheep and goats bear young(twins sometimes) and those young will be bearing next year, so the number will nearly double annually. The pigs and chickens are truly in a class by themselves. A single sow, even in medieval times, might have two litters of five or more pigs per year!

A question: Have we considered a water powered lumber mill to produce something other than planks? Perhaps wooden piping to greatly ease the flow of water to the communities?

When planting crops, consider that most of the labor force is less than experienced in such matters. We will need a reserve of perhaps 25% more land than pros like Ward would choose. Also we really need to start finding spots for our saplings and other plants.

[Norbert]

I agree that a breakup into several smaller communities would be wisest, although we might consider several smaller outposts linking the major communities as well.

As to animal reproduction, we should start this at once, even if this costs us the use of many of our draft animals. Sadly the draft animals have the longest period to reproduce towards valuable numbers, so must not waste time. Sheep and goats bear young(twins sometimes) and those young will be bearing next year, so the number will nearly double annually. The pigs and chickens are truly in a class by themselves. A single sow, even in medieval times, might have two litters of five or more pigs per year!

A question: Have we considered a water powered lumber mill to produce something other than planks? Perhaps wooden piping to greatly ease the flow of water to the communities?

When planting crops, consider that most of the labor force is less than experienced in such matters. We will need a reserve of perhaps 25% more land than pros like Ward would choose. Also we really need to start finding spots for our saplings and other plants.

I have considered all these, and as to the crops, I think 300% more, for lack of pesticides, and so on. Even if we get 50% of the crop going to waste, we can do it in such a way as to recover seeds.

As to the lumber mill, we have a civil engineer skilled in hydro-mechanical power, and one person who has experience in saw mills.

[jolo]

What might your idea for an exchange be?

According to Psychomeltdown, we have:

Large Animals
35 Horses 30 female, 5 male
19 Cattle 15 female, 4 male
18 Oxen 15 female, 3 male
18 Dairy Cows 14 female, 2 male (?)

Medium Animals
40 Pigs 36 female, 4 male
40 Sheep 36 female, 4 male
1 Goat 1 female, 0 male
9 Dogs 5 female, 4 male (?)

Small Animals
36 Chicken, 30 female, 6 male
12 Cats 10 female, 2 male
2 Small Dogs 2 female, 0 male

I'm not quite sure about the numbers, as the goat needed
to be added and I don't know which animal numbers to
reduce for it - I took one dog away for it. There's also a
problem with the number of dairy cows.

We can handle giving up the goat, the 18 Cattle, maybe
also the 18 oxen if we get sth. in return.

The 40 sheep might also be given up for a certain share of
the wool - we need it for sails.

As we have a smaller share of children, we can handle
loosing a few Dairy Cows, too. Psychomeltdown proposed 3.

Altogether that means:

Up to 19 cattle, 19 oxen, and 3 dairy cows for 41 horses, or
19 cattle and 3 dairy cows for 22 Oxen.

1 goat for one pig, sheep, or dog.

40 sheep for a 30% share of the wool in the first year and a
10 % share in the next 3 years - after that, it's market prices.

[SionEwig]

According to Psychomeltdown, we have:

Large Animals
35 Horses 30 female, 5 male
19 Cattle 15 female, 4 male
18 Oxen 15 female, 3 male
18 Dairy Cows 14 female, 2 male (?)

Medium Animals
40 Pigs 36 female, 4 male
40 Sheep 36 female, 4 male
1 Goat 1 female, 0 male
9 Dogs 5 female, 4 male (?)

Small Animals
36 Chicken, 30 female, 6 male
12 Cats 10 female, 2 male
2 Small Dogs 2 female, 0 male

I'm not quite sure about the numbers, as the goat needed
to be added and I don't know which animal numbers to
reduce for it - I took one dog away for it. There's also a
problem with the number of dairy cows.

We can handle giving up the goat, the 18 Cattle, maybe
also the 18 oxen if we get sth. in return.

The 40 sheep might also be given up for a certain share of
the wool - we need it for sails.

As we have a smaller share of children, we can handle
loosing a few Dairy Cows, too. Psychomeltdown proposed 3.

Altogether that means:

Up to 19 cattle, 19 oxen, and 3 dairy cows for 41 horses, or
19 cattle and 3 dairy cows for 22 Oxen.

1 goat for one pig, sheep, or dog.

40 sheep for a 30% share of the wool in the first year and a
10 % share in the next 3 years - after that, it's market prices.


Those animal numbers are WAY off, they were based on you having 90 members, which you no longer do going by the results of the poll "An Appeal to the Community"

Use these numbers which were developed from that newer poll.

Of the 652/3253

88% go to Berkeley - 574 Members/Families (2864 people)
08% stay at Fort Ian - 52 Members/Families (259 people)
04% set out on their own - 26 Members/Families (130 people)

These new percentages are taken from the poll "An Appeal to the Community"

Berkeley breakdown as follows
802 Men
773 Women
1289 Children

Fort Ian breakdown as follows
73 Men
70 Women
116 Children

New Homesteaders breakdown as follows
36 Men
35 Women
59 Children

Large Animals Totals (does not include any deaths)
400 Horses
75 Donkeys
75 Oxen
56 Beef Cattle
25 Dairy Cattle
20 Llamas
1 Jack Mule

652 Total which matches the number of Members/Families

Now, I broke down the large animals as to which goes with which group according to the same percentages as for the people. Originally this was not done, though the totals were correctly done. I think that this is only fair to do it this way.

Berkeley Large Animal Breakdown
352 Horses
66 Donkeys
66 Oxen
49 Beef Cattle
22 Dairy Cattle
18 Llamas
1 Jack Mule

574 Total which matches the number of Members/Families for Berkeley

Fort Ian Large Animal Breakdown
32 Horses
6 Donkeys
6 Oxen
4 Beef Cattle
2 Dairy Cattle
2 Llamas

52 Total which matches the number of Members/Families for Fort Ian

New Homesteaders Large Animal Breakdown
16 Horses
3 Donkeys
3 Oxen
3 Beef Cattle
1 Dairy Cow

26 Total which matches the number of Members/Families for New Homesteading

[jolo]

Berkeley Large Animal Breakdown
352 Horses
66 Donkeys
66 Oxen
49 Beef Cattle
22 Dairy Cattle
18 Llamas
1 Jack Mule

Fort Ian Large Animal Breakdown
32 Horses
6 Donkeys
6 Oxen
4 Beef Cattle
2 Dairy Cattle
2 Llamas



The 6 Donkeys, 4 Beef Cattle, 2 Llamas, and maybe also the 6 Oxen, would be available for trade then.

Horses and Oxen would be suitable for the other side of the trade, 12 or 18 together.

Edit: Saw the thread with the new numbers - I get:

17 Pigs
15 Sheep
12 goats
8 Dogs

The 12 goats would be up for trade, maybe also the 15 sheep.

Instead of some of the Horses and Oxen we might also take a higher number of sheep, as we need wool for ship production anyways until we have other materials available for sails, ropes, and so on.

That would make a total of 18 large animals and 12 goats in exchange for 66 or so sheep.

We might also drop the idea altogether and rather go for having every kind of animal in every settlement, to increase chances of the herds surviving illnesses, theft, wars, and so on. In that case we'll probably have a few more losses due to mismanagement - in all settlements, but more stable population numbers altogether. I understand it that our dairy cows are female and pregnant, then, and that a male breeder will be send over every once in a while. The Llamas would still be up for trade, as they will have more use for the main settlement.

Once we have the additional animals from the ASB's, we might let a few surplus animals run free to form wild herds. A few animals are likely to break free anyways.

[Ward]

I would like to offer an admemdment to are goverment in that if we breack down to 16 camps counting Fort Ian I move that we have a congress made up of 16 members that is formed in 6 mo from now . This Group of people are elected by there villages and meets for 6 days every two mo to over see what the Council has done . They also sent up projects that they would like to have the Council to run .

[Glen]

I would like to offer an admemdment to are goverment in that if we breack down to 16 camps counting Fort Ian I move that we have a congress made up of 16 members that is formed in 6 mo from now . This Group of people are elected by there villages and meets for 6 days every two mo to over see what the Council has done . They also sent up projects that they would like to have the Council to run .

I would suggest that something like this be suggested as an incorporation to our future Constitution, which should be done by the end of the year I hope. If we get something that there is a lot of excitement about earlier, we can bring it up at the General Meeting.

However, it seems to me that with the exception of Fort Ian and possibly one or two other sites, most of these camps will be well within travel range of each other, and therefore going to some form of representational system, while it might be eventually desirable, wouldn't be necessary as such yet.

We need to stay close together and in communication for the foreseeable future, so we have the maximum population to support the maximum number of specializations. While we can have neighborhoods and be spread out over several miles, we're still talking about basically one large settlement and a few small ones, at least for the next several years.

[Glen]

Let's have a round of reports from the council members or their designated representatives (for those on missions) of the progress of the various activities under council administration.

Briefly, medical supplies other than bandages are holding up well, mostly due to the lack of disease we started out with.

As soon as we get to the new site, I want to start a designated pharmaceuticals garden, and recruit whoever in AH.com has the greenest thumb to grow these most precious of plants, our medicinals.

Medical training at the moment has been restricted to first aide, trauma medicine, sanitation, and practical anatomy, and has mostly been progressing on a see one, do one, teach one model for procedures and such, with didactics based on presenting cases and follow-up reading. Once we arrive at the new site and the first crops are in, we will begin more formal lectures, readings, and teaching. We will also need to start up a lab for laboratory studies of serum, CSF, tissue, etc.

Fire safety courses organized in the first few days of the ISOT have dramatically cut down on the number of burn cases we are receiving, and we suspect the firearms safety courses of the rangers have done likewise. We have also been posting reminders and giving impromptu lectures to remind people of the vital importance of good sanitation.

Several people have been organized into a sanitation corps, though we are having high turnover in these positions. All the medical personnel are being rotated through to help with this and to also emphasize how important it is. We have dug new latrines as the old ones filled, have been enforcing strict washing and cleaning zones on the river, and have arranged for a cart to take up garbage collection every week based on tent/grid placement. This has gone less smoothly than we have liked just due to the large numbers of people we need to reach, but we are making progress with trial and error.

We plan to build septic tanks for the new settlement, and want to know the likelihood of having concrete by that time. Running water would be a bonus, if anyone can manage to figure that one out. We've been toying with the idea of hollowed out logs as a stop-gap measure, but it would probably be just as well to gather water in buckets. Hopefully someone has some ideas with regard to this.

As to our general health, people probably have more lean body mass now than they did on arrival, and no one appears to be starving. We now feel it reasonable to confirm that all physical and especially infectious ailments appear to have been removed by the ASBs from ourselves and our livestock. This will make the job of survival that much easier for us, and provides a much needed reprieve for the native Americans in the region. Until we need to make contact with the old world, this should remain the situation, though we will undoubtably be picking up some viruses and bacterial infections from the environment and our native neighbors.

We do have some smallpox vaccine, but we recommend that it be saved until such time as we plan our first expedition to the Old World (probably China) at which time it can be used to innoculate the first contact team, who will then need to gather samples of viruses to create attenuated virus vaccines for us (in the case of smallpox, maybe just cowpox).

[Ward]

Well Farming class are going good I have trained in the last 4 days about 30 men how to plow behind a team . once we get to the new site these men will help to start the first feilds to be plowed . Also we have made about 10 more wooden plows and are starting to train people on how to use them .
As it stands now we will be able to plow 14 Acres a day . so in less then 20 days we should have 280 acres plowed . Which is what we have in seeds at this time .

[Gerard-ABC]

Glenn,

My construction crews are doing fine with the wagons.

The number available for the trek to the new location will be as Norbert and I have already calculated. ( With a couple of spare ones. )

I don't need any more people for the crews - already using 50 to 60, depending on the exact stage any wagon is at. They do the tree felling, construction, site security, and delivering the wagons to the main camp.

No major injuries, just some bruises, scarpes, minor cuts, and a couple of strains. You've already seen the worst of them, and no one needed any time off work to recover. Even someone with a strained arm can still walk round the construction site with a Colt .45 auto, to look out for any dangerous wildlife / people, or guard the horses that we used to deliver the wagons to camp.

Morale is good, many of my people are already talking about what furniture they want to construct for their new homes after we move.


Regards,
Gerard

[Norbert]

Norberts Report:

First two convoys are to be about 680 people. Placing the camp should be no less than 7 acres, lets call it 14 acres (being conservative, here). The clearing is actually 144 acres in size, with Camp 1 that leaves 130 acres to start for crops (conservative, call it 120). 10 acres for animals and work space. The next groups will be able to camp within the area just cleared before they get there. The first group should be able to start plowing the land within 2 days of their arrival.

[Doctor What]

Dr. What's report:

Language lessons going well. As of a result of Ahmick's assistance, we have collected a wide variety of botanical samples that may prove useful. Samples, descriptions, and a small collection of various medicines, teas and so forth will be forwarded to the appropriate experts for further research and study. In addition. Ahmick's assistance has played a major role in scouting out possible future village sites (see Norbert for further info). Some additional information obtained on other tribes in the area but this still remains sketchy for the moment. Given the current information available however, I believe that future negotiations with other tribes in the area may be a possibility. No other tribes sighted by the group although there is some evidence to suggest that the other tribes may be aware of our journeys.

[jolo]

People take more care of their money this week, it's not like last week, where most money was spent after the first 2 days. People finally attach a value to our currency - small items are traded for money even on a private basis every once in a while.

The forms for registering the supply have only partly been filled in - people in average take a day to complete the form, there are 20 names on each form, therefore it'll be another two weeks before most are returned. Guesstimates on the data available so far can be made. I assume a little bit of cooperation with Hendryk there, though I didn't pm him for that. The ressupply might cause trouble - how about we assume the asb's let us write on paper what we want, so that the survey of those goods is done when the goods arrive?

As the development goes atm, in a few months we'll probably have a large settlement where the fishing camp is now, a minor settlement at Fort Monty, and another minor settlement at the dam, where a quarry, on oil well, and the more dangerous chemical industries will be situated.

We'll try to copy Hendryk's paper mill somewhere at the fishing camp (close to salt water), though with our limited number of people we'll probably not be able to produce finer papers - toilet paper, and maybe some newspaper quality paper will be it. I hope Hendryk allows a few of our people to look into his paper production.

P.S.:

For a simple water pipe, we only need wooden boards - it doesn't even need to be water tight. Shouldn't take more than a few days to get running water, which might also be useful for our lumber mills.

Also, we should expect to already get colds and later even more serious illnesses from the Amerindians and sometimes even from wild animals, if we play realistic.

[jolo]

I propose to extend the economy to the community kitchens by giving them an allowance based on the number of people they usually feed (maybe with lists or the likes), and letting them buy the food on the market at market prices. That would make it easier to specialise - Fort Monty could do more fishing, Ianopolis more farming, for instance. Otherwise, we'd need unnecessary redundancies.

I hope for your agreement.

[Glen]

I propose to extend the economy to the community kitchens by giving them an allowance based on the number of people they usually feed (maybe with lists or the likes), and letting them buy the food on the market at market prices. That would make it easier to specialise - Fort Monty could do more fishing, Ianopolis more farming, for instance. Otherwise, we'd need unnecessary redundancies.

I hope for your agreement.

Well, this is not the time to switch it over, I would suggest to you. Right now those numbers are in flux as the old kitchens close down and new ones open up in Ardenwood. Wait at least until the Great Trek is complete.

I think your small community in Fort Monty could go to this system almost immediately once the crowds are gone.

In Ardenwood, we are going to be working hard to build the infrastructure there for the next several months, and quite frankly the markets there will be side affairs. Once we have the first harvests coming in, that would likely be a good time for the switchover. Remember, we are still on rationing until the first crops and fishing hauls become available.

[jolo]

Well, this is not the time to switch it over, I would suggest to you. Right now those numbers are in flux as the old kitchens close down and new ones open up in Ardenwood. Wait at least until the Great Trek is complete.

I think your small community in Fort Monty could go to this system almost immediately once the crowds are gone.

In Ardenwood, we are going to be working hard to build the infrastructure there for the next several months, and quite frankly the markets there will be side affairs. Once we have the first harvests coming in, that would likely be a good time for the switchover. Remember, we are still on rationing until the first crops and fishing hauls become available.

There are already 10 boats fishing every day. Should be enough for 3000 people (together with some other food sources). And much of their catch might go to natives in turn for all kinds of (usually lesser) goods if we don't offer the fishermen a reward, while you guys are still rationing your food (without real need).

As I understood that all the hunters, gatherers, fishermen and so on give their food surplus to the market for free anyways, to be part of the community and to get their weekly allowance, there wouldn't be much change. Instead of a free distribution of the food, we give the kitchens the needed money, the kitchens give the money to the market, the market gives part of the money to the fishermen (and hunters) and keeps another part. The kitchens would have to announce how many they feed anyways (to organize the free distribution).

Imo this would be a very fair way to a) reward efforts to help the community survive, to b) allow the first settlement to move to more market economy without causing friction (if we'd simply increase money supply in the first settlement, it would be too difficult to keep prices stable), and to c) increase money supply gradually and in relation to market size.

It's a little bit hard on the farmers, who won't be able to produce much until the first harvest, but that's why the money goes to the kitchens and the people more or less as a subsidy atm. The farmers therefore won't have any real disadvantages, except that they can't make much money until their first harvest. But a little reward for feeding all those people and thereby basically supporting their trek and their farming efforts isn't wrong imo.

It would also simplify the next step: Increasing the allowance of the people according to what the kitchens consume, and letting people pay for their food themselves.

Thinking about it, it might also be possible to do this step directly, as it would get us rid of a lot of controls to make sure the kitchens don't take more than the number of the people eating there justifies. It's also no effort to simply increase the weekly allowance on one side and to stop the free distribution of food on the other side. There would only be slightly more risk of unpopular price changes whenever there are supply problems.

For Ardenwood/Ianopolis, the choice is mainly between doing everything on their own and with quite a few problems, or starting specialisation and solving problems much faster. For the fishermen, there's no big difference anymore - they can get money (trade with all our communities), trade with natives, or hord the food. There might also be "black"/grey market trade if the situation is unchanged. All with the same results, as the ones being productive earlier automatically gain a little advantage, at least for the first months.

I'll leave the final decision to you.

[Glen]

There are already 10 boats fishing every day. Should be enough for 3000 people (together with some other food sources). And much of their catch might go to natives in turn for all kinds of (usually lesser) goods if we don't offer the fishermen a reward, while you guys are still rationing your food (without real need).

Well, we actually might have more boats than that, since I had several NPCs bring aluminum boats and nets as part of their weight allowance.

What do people think? How is our fishing industry going at present, and is it enough that we're going to be able to go off rationing?

As I understood that all the hunters, gatherers, fishermen and so on give their food surplus to the market for free anyways, to be part of the community and to get their weekly allowance, there wouldn't be much change.

Sigh....how many times have I explained this. It's not for free. In fact, you're even indicating this in part with your mention of a 'weekly allowance'. Work done for the community is being credited to those individuals account, part of which they are using to get their ration from the food stores and kitchens. And the more food they bring in, the bigger that credit.

Instead of a free distribution of the food,

Its not free, see above.

we give the kitchens the needed money, the kitchens give the money to the market, the market gives part of the money to the fishermen (and hunters) and keeps another part. The kitchens would have to announce how many they feed anyways (to organize the free distribution).

Once we are out of a rationing system, we can talk about this. Until I hear agreement from the other councillors that this is the case, we should continue with the current system.

Quite frankly, once we've got the first crop in, I'd just as soon see the kitchens sold off to people and turned into restaurants.

Imo this would be a very fair way to a) reward efforts to help the community survive, to b) allow the first settlement to move to more market economy without causing friction (if we'd simply increase money supply in the first settlement, it would be too difficult to keep prices stable), and to c) increase money supply gradually and in relation to market size.

Money supply should reflect the real net worth of our nation, so that people have a convenient way of trading, and increasing that value. As the value increases, so should the money supply. This is another reason why the inventory/census was so vital, to get a rough estimate of what our true net worth is.

It's a little bit hard on the farmers, who won't be able to produce much until the first harvest, but that's why the money goes to the kitchens and the people more or less as a subsidy atm. The farmers therefore won't have any real disadvantages, except that they can't make much money until their first harvest. But a little reward for feeding all those people and thereby basically supporting their trek and their farming efforts isn't wrong imo.

Yes and no. If the farmers are currently engaged in farming activities, they should receive credit for their labor. Besides, most of them will be gainfully employed by wagon making before the move and with setting up the main settlement and farms after.

Everyone is working hard, jolo. And its all necessary at this point, so most people are getting about the same credit/wages for their efforts, with bonuses for good results.

It would also simplify the next step: Increasing the allowance of the people according to what the kitchens consume, and letting people pay for their food themselves.

Thinking about it, it might also be possible to do this step directly, as it would get us rid of a lot of controls to make sure the kitchens don't take more than the number of the people eating there justifies. It's also no effort to simply increase the weekly allowance on one side and to stop the free distribution of food on the other side. There would only be slightly more risk of unpopular price changes whenever there are supply problems.

See above.


For Ardenwood/Ianopolis, the choice is mainly between doing everything on their own and with quite a few problems, or starting specialisation and solving problems much faster. For the fishermen, there's no big difference anymore - they can get money (trade with all our communities), trade with natives, or hoard the food. There might also be "black"/grey market trade if the situation is unchanged. All with the same results, as the ones being productive earlier automatically gain a little advantage, at least for the first months.

I'll leave the final decision to you.

Hoard the food? And why are they going to do that? Much easier to sell it to the big buyer, the community itself, and not have to go to the trouble of preserving their catch for future (which at this point would require a lot of work on their part, and be very obvious).

[jolo]

It's not for free. In fact, you're even indicating this in part with your mention of a 'weekly allowance'. Work done for the community is being credited to those individuals account, part of which they are using to get their ration from the food stores and kitchens. And the more food they bring in, the bigger that credit.


OK - I take it then that we already have some kind of market system for the food distribution, even though the money is given as credit, not in bills for now. That would be sufficient and simplify things a lot.


Once we are out of a rationing system, we can talk about this. Until I hear agreement from the other councillors that this is the case, we should continue with the current system.


Should work as it is if I understand you right. There'd just need to be a way to get "real money" for the credit, so that the communities can do more liberalisation asap.


Quite frankly, once we've got the first crop in, I'd just as soon see the kitchens sold off to people and turned into restaurants.


Same here, except that I see most of the southern kitchens on private ground already - no selling necessary.


Money supply should reflect the real net worth of our nation, so that people have a convenient way of trading, and increasing that value. As the value increases, so should the money supply. This is another reason why the inventory/census was so vital, to get a rough estimate of what our true net worth is.


I don't consider it that important, as there will automatically be market prices after a time. But it might make the transition from our respective local currencies to our self made currency easier by reducing price fluctuations a little bit. We could start abolishing most subsidies at about the time the credits and the money supply have reached this point. That will also be the painful time when we'll have to introduce a few taxes to support the most necessary community projects without increasing the money supply.


Yes and no. If the farmers are currently engaged in farming activities, they should receive credit for their labor. Besides, most of them will be gainfully employed by wagon making before the move and with setting up the main settlement and farms after.

Everyone is working hard, jolo. And its all necessary at this point, so most people are getting about the same credit/wages for their efforts, with bonuses for good results.


There is a little problem here - if the southern communities would just support themselves, they'd get exactly the same credits in average as the people in the northern communities. If the southern communities are supposed to help the northern communities, as is now possible, there must be an incentive for that.

The southerners could use the 5 weeks advantage to just bother with their affairs - which should usually give them an advantage over the northerners - earlier homes, earlier food, earlier production, earlier everything. Or they could use the 5 weeks to help the northerners - but that wouldn't really make sense for the southerners without some *additional* reward which compensates for loosing this advantage.

There was already some free help for the northerners - the south cut back on wood crafting and building to support the wagon building with lots of wood - without demanding anything in return (except maybe an according share of the still functioning wagons when they aren't needed in the north anymore).

In other words - a little bit temporary injustice (based on everyones decision whether to move or not, therefore not really unjust) would speed specialisation and therefore development a lot.

All we need for that (following your above post), is a more market oriented credit system for the work being done, so that people get credited more by the demand of their work than by some kind of honor system.


Hoard the food? And why are they going to do that? Much easier to sell it to the big buyer, the community itself, and not have to go to the trouble of preserving their catch for future (which at this point would require a lot of work on their part, and be very obvious).


Most of the preserving will have to be done on the go anyways, as the Bay is big and our boats are slow and without refrigeration. Only the boats fishing close to our settlements can deliver fresh seafood.

Once hoarding has reached the limits of practicality, the southerners would usually reduce the number of fishermen and assign the people to construction, farming, and other work, if there is no suitable agreement on crediting the help for the northerners. This is not even egoism - it's just so that there's more than enough to do at home to ensure survival that there has to be convincing reason to put some of the effort into other communities.

Basically, my proposal is about whether every community just bothers with their own problems until a full market economy is established, or whether we already start a functioning cooperation (based on free will). Either way, there's a slight advantage for the southerners atm. Right now would be the right time to start formal cooperation, as the local separation is just starting.

[Glen]

OK - I take it then that we already have some kind of market system for the food distribution, even though the money is given as credit, not in bills for now. That would be sufficient and simplify things a lot.

Not only take it....darn it, we told YOU that that was being implemented day one, and YOUR department was implementing it. So either you've had someone doing this all along, or we've had to replace you in this capacity.


Should work as it is if I understand you right. There'd just need to be a way to get "real money" for the credit, so that the communities can do more liberalisation asap.

Well, that's your job, jolo. Just make certain you run it past the council, since the credit system and money supply effect everything else everyone is doing.

Same here, except that I see most of the southern kitchens on private ground already - no selling necessary.

I'm sorry, but you've lost me here. Which are the Southern and which are the Northern? You talking about the Southern being Fort Monty, and the Northern being Ardenwood?

Most of the Southern kitchens are on private ground already? What does that even mean? Those kitchens were built together as a community, and people got credit for that work. If some now wish to cash in their accumulating credit to buy the kitchens from the community once the Great Trek is ending, fine. Or maybe we're talking about some small kitchens, rather than the main ones for the entire community.


I don't consider it that important, as there will automatically be market prices after a time.

Of course there WILL be market prices, as you yourself points out there always has been. But if you want your nascent free market to work out at first with the least trouble, how you initially value that cash will be important. That's why we're doing it that way.

But it might make the transition from our respective local currencies to our self made currency easier by reducing price fluctuations a little bit.

Try A LOT. As for 'our local currencies', those became worthless the moment of the ISOT, without the nations and economies that once supported them. We bought them up to use as pocket change, or don't you recall that discussion? They were worth something as hard to counterfeit paper, but not based on anything else.

We could start abolishing most subsidies at about the time the credits and the money supply have reached this point. That will also be the painful time where we'll have to introduce a few taxes to support the most necessary community projects without increasing the money supply.

This now is a very important point and question for us to take to the general meeting. For the time being, the 'government' has basically been running on a pay-for-services model, though with liberal credit being extended in both directions and without interest.

This has worked fairly well as long as most projects have been community based, but once we get away from that (as we should, though maybe not as fast as jolo suggests), we'll need to start thinking of how best to finance those functions of government.


There is a little problem here - if the southern communities would just support themselves, they'd get exactly the same credits in average as the people in the northern communities. If the southern communities are supposed to help the northern communities, as is now possible, there must be an incentive for that.

The southerners could use the 5 weeks advantage to just bother with their affairs - which should usually give them an advantage over the northerners - earlier homes, earlier food, earlier production, earlier everything. Or they could use the 5 weeks to help the northerners - but that wouldn't really make sense for the southerners without some *additional* reward which compensates for loosing this advantage.

There was already some free help for the northerners - the south cut back on wood crafting and building to support the wagon building with lots of wood - without demanding anything in return (except maybe an according share of the still functioning wagons when they aren't needed in the north anymore).

In other words - a little bit temporary injustice (based on everyones decision whether to move or not, therefore not really unjust) would speed specialisation and therefore development a lot.

Whatever. So the Fort Monty folks end up with a little lead time and a little extra credit for assisting with the Trek. That's fair. And they are going to likely need it, as they will not have as large of a population base for their economy, so maybe that extra now will help them to keep up once the bigger settlement gets going.

All we need for that (following your above post), is a more market oriented credit system for the work being done, so that people get credited more by the demand of their work than by some kind of honor system.


People are getting credited right now depending on the demand for their work, as well as the supply of who can do it. However, the demand is high for nearly everything right now, so there are only relatively small differences in what people get paid.


Most of the preserving will have to be done on the go anyways, as the Bay is big and our boats are slow and without refrigeration. Only the boats fishing close to our settlements can deliver fresh seafood.

How are you going to do this preserving 'on the go'? Are you saying on the boats, or are you going to pull aside someplace on the shore to do the preserving. I don't think we're going to be producing enough salt to do that, so its going to have to be smoking for the most part.

I also don't understand why you'd go this far. The fishing close to the settlement should be great, and you can just deliver it fresh and it will be sold and not your problem any more.

Once hoarding has reached the limits of practicality,

Hoarding of freshly killed food, as opposed to what we have brought, is just inefficient in the extreme. Try and hoard any significant amount, and you're going to run into spoilage and storage issues.

the southerners would usually reduce the number of fishermen and assign the people for construction, farming, and other work, if there is no suitable agreement on crediting the help for the northerners.

Whichever. The agreement for crediting work should not be any problem...we've been doing that for individuals with the community for weeks and weeks now. The community refers to both the southern and northern settlements, so that credit earned in one can transfer to another. And your southern settlements will eventually be wanting credit (or cash) that is good in the north, because we are going to have a lot more specialists than you are. You just don't have the population to have much of any.

This is not even egoism - it's just so that there's more than enough to do at home to ensure survival that there has to be convincing reason to put some of the effort into other communities.

It's called profit and trade, my friend. Just the same as you've been saying. I don't expect anyone to do anything without some credit (even if there are those willing to).

Basically, my proposal is about whether every community just bothers with their own problems until a full market economy is established, or whether we already start a functioning cooperation (based on free will).

We've already started a functioning cooperation based on free will, jolo. Cash and more privatization will augment that, but it is already happening. Heck, you are in that process up to your neck!

Either way, there's a slight advantage for the southerners atm. Right now would be the right time to start formal cooperation, as the local separation is just starting.

Per capita, yes there is a slight advantage atm for the southerners (if by that you mean Fort Monty). Of course, given the numbers of people going North, we've probably have people who have accrued more wealth in our society than the whole Fort Monty crew together. And formal cooperation already started, even before the trek. Or did you forget the tillage for draft work agreement?

[Ward]

So Jolo
how much do you belive we owe you for the use of anamils to head to the new area . Because I put in 15 Acers of Crops for the use of them I fell that
The !5 acres of Seeds and plowing the fieds for you and teaching how to plow is worth to me 500 Days worth of animal use , Also the 5 Wood plows that I build your comunity is worth another 100 days of animal use . Then there is my time as a Master Farmer teaching and doing work for your comunity I belive myh time is worth 1000 Days worth of animal use . So I belive you still owe me a lot of time and money .

[SionEwig]

So Jolo
how much do you belive we owe you for the use of anamils to head to the new area . Because I put in 15 Acers of Crops for the use of them I fell that
The !5 acres of Seeds and plowing the fieds for you and teaching how to plow is worth to me 500 Days worth of animal use , Also the 5 Wood plows that I build your comunity is worth another 100 days of animal use . Then there is my time as a Master Farmer teaching and doing work for your comunity I belive myh time is worth 1000 Days worth of animal use . So I belive you still owe me a lot of time and money .

I know I am not on the Council, but just to add in cause Gerard might have forgotten it, the wagon builders constructed 60 additional wagons after they had done enough for the people going on the Trek. That is enough for every family unit in the Fort Ian community to have a wagon with 8 left over for spares for the Fort Ian community.

[Norbert]

I know I am not on the Council, but just to add in cause Gerard might have forgotten it, the wagon builders constructed 60 additional wagons after they had done enough for the people going on the Trek. That is enough for every family unit in the Fort Ian community to have a wagon with 8 left over for spares for the Fort Ian community.

Not to mention 90% of the wood for building and fuel for Fort Ian was contributed by people who will not use it. Not to mention numerous acres of land cleared for their use. jolo, stop whining about getting screwed. If anyone is, it is the people who contributed to your community with little hope of repayment. You want to stay there, fine. But the people on the trek are not getting anything for free. Personally, I think you should say Thank You for the aid and contributions, and then shut up about it. I've defended your actions in the past, tried to be patient in explaining many, many things to you, but now I am tired of the grousing. As to the council, if you don't like it, resign and theres the door.

[jolo]

Not only take it....darn it, we told YOU that that was being implemented day one, and YOUR department was implementing it. So either you've had someone doing this all along, or we've had to replace you in this capacity.


Sorry, I do remember the matter to have been discussed, but I don't remember a final decision about it. There was a decision about an equal pay for everyone starting after 1 or 2 weeks, and a bonus system to be implemented by the group leaders 1 or 2 weeks later. I can't remember a decision about implementing a system of writing down every contribution by everyone, as that would be pretty unfair to the farmers, the gardeners and other people not eligible for such credits - without any logical reason. In a market economy, such inequalities would be acceptable as they'd just be an investment in future profits or an incentive to concentrate on more measurable work. And you are always free to replace me with someone else if you like. I won't lack things to do.


Well, that's your job, jolo. Just make certain you run it past the council, since the credit system and money supply effect everything else everyone is doing.


I take it I'm free to make any credits convertible into money. I leave it up to you whether credits are supposed to have been collected from the beginning, or whether we'll only collect credits for members of one community helping another community (i. e. selling fish and the likes). I'd advocate the latter. Papers of the community market should be sufficient to award credits now, if this is wanted, as everyones contributions have been noted for the work-assignment program anyways.


I'm sorry, but you've lost me here. Which are the Southern and which are the Northern? You talking about the Southern being Fort Monty, and the Northern being Ardenwood?


I used those terms as Fort Monty is only a part of the people staying. The fishing camp is a few miles away, as are some farms (concentrated in villages). There was also a proposal by Ward to split Ardenwood into several small villages, which is your business. Therefore, I say south for the area around Fort Monty and north for the area around Ardenwood, as you guessed correctly.


Most of the Southern kitchens are on private ground already? What does that even mean? Those kitchens were built together as a community, and people got credit for that work. If some now wish to cash in their accumulating credit to buy the kitchens from the community once the Great Trek is ending, fine. Or maybe we're talking about some small kitchens, rather than the main ones for the entire community.


I didn't even think of building much. More like some housewives cooking for their men and their co-workers, in the large tents, on the outside if the weather is fine, and under improvised roofs. The camping places of the housewives would be the community kitchens and property of the respective family at the same time, and they'd do any work there on their own.

But if you like, I'll understand that you are leaving a few community buildings here. I just see problems with building them besides 440 wagons. Up to you.


This now is a very important point and question for us to take to the general meeting. For the time being, the 'government' has basically been running on a pay-for-services model, though with liberal credit being extended in both directions and without interest.


Consider it done. I'd need some information on whether and how your community will spread in the Ardenwood area. Then I could try to calculate a budget. Part of the budget will be financed by increasing the money supply (maybe 1% per month, depending on prices), the remains by taxes. It should only be a guideline, as local mayors should have a few freedoms in this regard (deciding how much taxes/community work they want).

I'd just like to know which community services anyone had to pay or was taken credit for.


Whatever. So the Fort Monty folks end up with a little lead time and a little extra credit for assisting with the Trek. That's fair. And they are going to likely need it, as they will not have as large of a population base for their economy, so maybe that extra now will help them to keep up once the bigger settlement gets going.


Thanks for agreeing. I also believe we'll have tough times later, though with you guys settling pretty close to us that will be less of a problem.


People are getting credited right now depending on the demand for their work, as well as the supply of who can do it. However, the demand is high for nearly everything right now, so there are only relatively small differences in what people get paid.


Good.


How are you going to do this preserving 'on the go'? Are you saying on the boats, or are you going to pull aside someplace on the shore to do the preserving. I don't think we're going to be producing enough salt to do that, so its going to have to be smoking for the most part.


Where there is fire, a pan, and salt water, there is also salt. They can also take along some salt prepared at the fishing camp. But smoking any catch might be enough. It would usually be on shores of fishing and hunting grounds not tapped by Amerindians - like little uninhabited isles or remote coasts.


I also don't understand why you'd go this far. The fishing close to the settlement should be great, and you can just deliver it fresh and it will be sold and not your problem any more.


It's mainly for our seals. I suppose most seal colonies will not be in the Bay, as they are too easy a kill for the natives there.


Hoarding of freshly killed food, as opposed to what we have brought, is just inefficient in the extreme. Try and hoard any significant amount, and you're going to run into spoilage and storage issues.


Yes, but lots of people store more food than they can eat. Especially if they don't know if there's enough to eat available next month. Once enough is stored, fishing would be cut back if there were no market for fish, but that problem has been solved if there's not too much disagreement with your above proposals.


Per capita, yes there is a slight advantage atm for the southerners (if by that you mean Fort Monty). Of course, given the numbers of people going North, we've probably have people who have accrued more wealth in our society than the whole Fort Monty crew together. And formal cooperation already started, even before the trek. Or did you forget the tillage for draft work agreement?


I wish you good luck :)

And the tillage for draft agreement is a fine example, but only a one-time thing. I meant permanent agreements like the one about fish for cash. I'm glad it's possible to come to an understanding there.

[jolo]

So Jolo
how much do you belive we owe you for the use of anamils to head to the new area . Because I put in 15 Acers of Crops for the use of them I fell that
The !5 acres of Seeds and plowing the fieds for you and teaching how to plow is worth to me 500 Days worth of animal use , Also the 5 Wood plows that I build your comunity is worth another 100 days of animal use . Then there is my time as a Master Farmer teaching and doing work for your comunity I belive myh time is worth 1000 Days worth of animal use . So I belive you still owe me a lot of time and money .

The deal was tillage for draft animals, and it was a fair deal imo.

I also don't want to sound unthankful - I just try to simulate a realistic behaviour of the fishing camp. The fishermen and -women have families to support, homes to build, and so on. Try to tell them they are supposed to give up 80% of their catch for nothing just because some farmers owe the main settlers something.

Also, my proposals are about creating a functioning economy, not perfect justice. As Glen already said, we'll have more problems than you later anyways - especially if there isn't as much specialisation between our camps as possible asap. And specialisation will only work if there's a functioning economic model supporting it. We are not the only ones profiting from that - it will also help you guys. In the long term even more than us, as you have much more specialists.

[jolo]

I know I am not on the Council, but just to add in cause Gerard might have forgotten it, the wagon builders constructed 60 additional wagons after they had done enough for the people going on the Trek. That is enough for every family unit in the Fort Ian community to have a wagon with 8 left over for spares for the Fort Ian community.

Sorry, I didn't know that. I hoped we'd get some wagons after they had been used for the trek (expecting to get only 20 or so, and only in a few weeks). Now I'm really blushing, as I expected us to need to buy some additional wagons from you guys later. We'll definitely have to credit that work - and the farming, if we're at it.

[jolo]

Not to mention 90% of the wood for building and fuel for Fort Ian was contributed by people who will not use it. Not to mention numerous acres of land cleared for their use. jolo, stop whining about getting screwed. If anyone is, it is the people who contributed to your community with little hope of repayment. You want to stay there, fine. But the people on the trek are not getting anything for free. Personally, I think you should say Thank You for the aid and contributions, and t