ALT Drug Laws Poll

[Glen]

Someone asked me to post some questions about these. I suggest they would have been brought up for a vote at one of the earlier general meetings.

[Glen]

Just to clarify...

You can still be held criminally or civilly negligent in the event of harm caused by you secondary to being under the influence of a mind altering substance.

[SionEwig]

So if the selling is made illegal, no one could sell whiskey, beer or wine?

[pisces74]

Change the wording of the second choice of the poll from "selling" to "distribution" and we're on.

[SionEwig]

Change the wording of the second choice of the poll from "selling" to "distribution" and we're on.

So if 'distribution' is made illegal, then no one could 'distribute' whiskey, beer, or wine?

[Glen]

So if the selling is made illegal, no one could sell whiskey, beer or wine?

Hmmm, good question....

I think this was meant more to deal with substances other than alcohol, but maybe we should be consistant, however we decide.

[Glen]

Change the wording of the second choice of the poll from "selling" to "distribution" and we're on.

I think this would be specific for selling, or profiteering, off the use of mind altering substances.

Why, what in particular did you have in mind when you specified distribution?

[SionEwig]

Hmmm, good question....

I think this was meant more to deal with substances other than alcohol, but maybe we should be consistant, however we decide.

While we are at it, throw in Tobacco and Caffine.

[Glen]

While we are at it, throw in Tobacco and Caffine.

Personally, I'd be glad to throw in tobacco...

Caffeine is a toughy...pretty darn safe, positive nootrophic effects, but also addictive...

Sure, we'll throw it in for now...

Do y'all think we need to divide the question on this one?

[pisces74]

I think this would be specific for selling, or profiteering, off the use of mind altering substances.

Why, what in particular did you have in mind when you specified distribution?
Remember "the first one is free." We've already had one person threaten to start a drugocracy. Now I'll be the first to admit I'm a jaded bastard so, imagine if you will a situation where someone strings out a few people on a drug, and without the exchange of money starts a prostitution ring based soley on bartering and kickbacks. with selling as the watchword, no selling is being involved, the kickbacks would be under the table, so if called on in a lawful manner someone could say "no money or profiteering is involved, I give the candyman this stuff of my own accord."


While we are at it, throw in Tobacco and Caffine.
I myself have never found myself willing to kill someone, or perform lewd acts on anyone I didn't care for over a pepsi, but I hear results vary.

[Glen]

Remember "the first one is free." We've already had one person threaten to start a drugocracy. Now I'll be the first to admit I'm a jaded bastard so, imagine if you will a situation where someone strings out a few people on a drug, and without the exchange of money starts a prostitution ring based soley on bartering and kickbacks. with selling as the watchword, no selling is being involved, the kickbacks would be under the table, so if called on in a lawful manner someone could say "no money or profiteering is involved, I give the candyman this stuff of my own accord."

Given how much of our economy is likely to involve barter, the two will be interchangable. That is still profitting from distribution, ie selling...


I myself have never found myself willing to kill someone, or perform lewd acts on anyone I didn't care for over a pepsi, but I hear results vary.

LOL!

[Flocculencio]

Just to clarify...

You can still be held criminally or civilly negligent in the event of harm caused by you secondary to being under the influence of a mind altering substance.

Given this caveat I see no reason why there should be any restrictions on drug sale and use.

And I will defend my tobacco patch with my life :D

[Matt]

While I may not agree with your tobacco patch, I well defend your right to have it ;)

[Glen]

Given this caveat I see no reason why there should be any restrictions on drug sale and use.

And I will defend my tobacco patch with my life :D

Why? For me, it comes down to three factors:

1) Several of these substances have harmful health effects
2) And also are addictive, making informed choice problematic
3) And people profitting off an addictive, harmful substance is not a good thing.

So, when something has these two qualities, other people having a vested interest in promoting their use becomes rather malignant.

Alcohol falls under this description, but there are some complicating factors, namely its ease of production making it ubiquitous, its long history in civilization making it more acceptable to many, and that in moderation, alcohol has actual health benefits.

Tobacco on the other hand is harmful, is not ubiquitous, is addictive, and has no health benefits. I'd outlaw it in a heartbeat if I could; sorry Floc. However, that doesn't seem likely, so I'd at least like to see it not being peddled and people making money off ruining your health.

There is another element to addiction that we haven't mentioned...the contextual aspect of it. When the use of potentially addictive substances is heavily ritualized or regularized (very strict parameters over when and how they are used), the risk of abuse goes down. Religious ceremonies are one example; a more prosaic one is a glass of wine or beer with dinner, and only one, only then.

[Othniel]

I think we should allow whom ever wants to grow it to grow it, but a prohibition on selling or distrubting refined goods. However it shouldn't be encouraged, and certain goods need to be grown specifically for Doctor Glen's work.

[Flocculencio]

Tobacco on the other hand is harmful, is not ubiquitous, is addictive, and has no health benefits. I'd outlaw it in a heartbeat if I could; sorry Floc. However, that doesn't seem likely, so I'd at least like to see it not being peddled and people making money off ruining your health.

Oh fair enough- however growing some for my own use should be a different case. I'm not exactly likely to turn into Big Tobacco- it's a lot more likely that all the smokers will get together to form a tobacco collective or something of the sort to grow the stuff. As Othniel says, perhaps there shpuld be different standards of regulation for people who grow to sell and those who grow for personal (or non-commercial) consumption

a more prosaic one is a glass of wine or beer with dinner, and only one, only then.

However said ritualisation differs from culture to culture. In much of Europe, for example, only one glass of wine only with dinner would seem strange indeed.

[Hendryk]

I am among those who have a problem with having addictive substances peddled in our community. I have too many friends hopelessly hooked on tobacco not to wish it wasn't used in this TL, especially if we consider that heavy smokers will end up being a disproportionate drain on the community's resources when they start getting cancers and slowly withering away.
But I'm aware that aiming for utopian perfection is, well, utopian. So a live and let live approach may be the most sensible one by default. Besides, though I haven't indulged in the stuff for years, I wouldn't mind a toke or three from someone's spliff every once in a while.

[Doctor What]

Just want to point out that Jimson Weed grows quite prominently in California--and indeed, in many parts of the Americas. There are actually two varieties of Jimsonweed that exist but Datura Wrightii will be the ones that we will almost certainly running into.

http://wildflowers.jdcc.edu/Enitre%20Leaf%20Thorn%20Apple.JPG

D. stramonium (virtually a cousin of D. wrightii) grows pretty much everywhere else in north america. Soldiers stationed in Jamestown were accidentally fed the plants at one point and got seriously stoned and ill on it and that's where we got the name Jimson weed ( 'Jamestown weed')

http://wildflowers.jdcc.edu/Jimson%20Weed.JPG

I bring this up for several reasons:
1) It grows naturally--we are almost certainly going to run into a patch of them at some point (if we haven't already)

2) There's a cool looking moth that feeds on the blossom of the plants. its larvae also feeds on the plant. Problem is that jimsonweed, tomato and tobacco all come from the same family so the larvae is quite content to jump from plant to plant.

3) In nearly every native culture that grows up in an area that has any kind of hallucinatory plant growing in the area, there are always some kind of rituals/sacredness attached to them. The details are different from culture to culture and the type of plant consumed may be different (our pal Psycho comes from a culture that has a great deal of significance around the peyote cactus, for example) but the results are the same--one does NOT get stoned for the sake of getting stoned but to communicate with the spirits or gods, spiritually cleanse oneself, offerings to the gods for safety and protection, part of your prayers, etc. Tobacco, for example, was to be used in only four circumstances: prayer, offerings, purification rituals and as a sign of respect and appreciation to elders or to a person you have angered ('we smoke peace pipe'). Almost certainly Ahmick's people will be consuming jimsonweed for some kind of ritual (probably puberty initiation for the males). And almost certainly they will be appalled at our 'abuse' of 'sacred plants'.

4) Because of the factors I cited above, I want to insist in the strongest possible terms that --while we are free to do whatever we wish inside the community--under no circumstances should those who interact with the natives for trading on a regular basis introduce anything resembling drugs to them. I do not wish to have a repeat of the introduction of alcohol that occurred in OTL.

[Ward]

I can see us having beer with are meals because the water is not fit to drink , I did bring a pound of dry beer yeast so we can make it later on .

[Forum Lurker]

There are a few points to consider here.

A) Difficulty of enforcement. As noted, it's easy enough for someone to find wild patches of hallucinogens; those inclined to indulge will do so. We don't have anything near the law enforcement capabilities to hunt down every patch of hemp that's useful for more than just rope, nor do we really want that level of monitoring. Alcohol, in particular, is a problem because it's an important chemical precursor and a good cheap antiseptic; we'll have lots of it around, and making sure no one ever takes a nip will be quite difficult.

B) Cultural issues. As noted by Dr. What, it's very important that we not mess with the native's rituals; on the other hand, some of us have rituals which require the use of certain intoxicants, and I'll be leading the unrest if someone tells me that my still needs to be confiscated and monitored by the medical councillor because I can't be trusted to celebrate Purim.

In the long run, I think the only workable solution is to permit usage, with the understanding that A) natives are not to be exposed to any drug usage other than in their own rituals, unless and until they've fully assimilated, and B) any actions undertaken by someone under the influence is still fully their responsibility, or if a minor that of their guardian.

[Dave Howery]

I think we should allow anyone to do any kind of drugs they please and have no laws on them... except for Straha. He doesn't get anything and must be a teetotaler.


Why? 'Cuz I'm mean... :)

[Psychomeltdown]

Drugs, I think that it should be only limited to marijuana.

mainly because one can pretty much use marijuana in the same fashion as alcohol, Many users who indulge in it do not become addicted, unless they already have the addictive gene, and can preform well when not under the influence.

Remember people who use alcohol can also become very addicted to it, though many aren't.


I think we should also limit alcohol production. Distilled alcohol especially, since if it starts being traded with the Locals, then all sorts of hell is gonna break loose.

[Ghost 88]

I can see us having beer with are meals because the water is not fit to drink , I did bring a pound of dry beer yeast so we can make it later on .
Ward I don't get this water unfit to drink bit its not like there's a dozen big cities washing thier crap into the local streams.Yes we need to filter the sediments out of it but I don't see it having major contamination.

[Glen]

BTW, one thing I REALLY don't like is smoking as a delivery system. In and of itself a health risk factor, and it tends to get into others' face.

Not to mention any means of making fire is a limited resource at present, so lighting up is also using up, but that is a short term issue.

[Ghost 88]

BTW, one thing I REALLY don't like is smoking as a delivery system. In and of itself a health risk factor, and it tends to get into others' face.

Not to mention any means of making fire is a limited resource at present, so lighting up is also using up, but that is a short term issue.
Never been a Boy Scout Doc they be many ways to start a fire with out matches and most smokers will use a going fire to light up(at least they did when I was in the army) I agree with you on the hazards of smoking though

[Ward]

Ward I don't get this water unfit to drink bit its not like there's a dozen big cities washing thier crap into the local streams.Yes we need to filter the sediments out of it but I don't see it having major contamination.


We will have over 3000 people around are water sorce and a lot of children
and kids don't think of were they pee .

[jolo]

We will have over 3000 people around are water sorce and a lot of children
and kids don't think of were they pee .

It's not poisenous, and even in a small creek it dissolves to nearly nothing. I suppose if it's a normal creek, most of us wouldn't even need to boil the water - though it would be safer.

[Ghost 88]

We will have over 3000 people around are water sorce and a lot of children
and kids don't think of were they pee .
And we are leaving our children unsupervised and untrained?:eek:

[Norbert]

And we are leaving our children unsupervised and untrained?:eek:

Even supervised and trained I've seen it happen many, many times.

[Forum Lurker]

BTW, one thing I REALLY don't like is smoking as a delivery system. In and of itself a health risk factor, and it tends to get into others' face.

Not to mention any means of making fire is a limited resource at present, so lighting up is also using up, but that is a short term issue.
Public smoking should be restricted, but not as a separate law; simply make it explicit that smoking upwind of someone is considered as much of a public nuisance as lighting your campfire directly upwind of someone's tentflap, pissing upriver of someone getting cookwater, etc.

[Psychomeltdown]

We will have over 3000 people around are water sorce and a lot of children
and kids don't think of were they pee .
wel, I guess we'd have to remedy that. Afterall we need the water clean and even then we're still going to have to boil it. we don't know what bacteria or whatever lies in the water.

One reason I'm against the use of water purification tablets is that we'll be needing them on the trip and for now we can just boil the water we get.

It's not poisenous, and even in a small creek it dissolves to nearly nothing.
No, it does not dissolve to almost nothing. Its still there. One person pissing into the stream won't really cause a problem, 10 people pissing into it, then we've got a problem. 20 people and that's not cool, in a sanitary way.

We are still hopefully boiling our water. Again: we don't know what's in the water and we can't risk someone getting sick over it.

Even supervised and trained I've seen it happen many, many times.Well, damn it. Get those parents/guardians to watch them. We've got latrines set up, hopefully away from any water sources. These kids are going to have to learn a lot of discipline over the next couple of weeks.

[Psychomeltdown]

Public smoking should be restricted, but not as a separate law; simply make it explicit that smoking upwind of someone is considered as much of a public nuisance as lighting your campfire directly upwind of someone's tentflap, pissing upriver of someone getting cookwater, etc.
I think this is a moot point. I mean have you ever had a campfire, cooked with a fire, etc? You'll be practically breathing smoke when that's happening. What's a little second hand smoke going to do? Nothing.

Hell, we'll probably be dead before any major side effects of smoking occurs.

[Norbert]

As to smoking, I figure when the ASBs cured everything else, they fixed my addiction to tobacco.

As to Drinking, whether it is Beer, Wine, or Distilled, I am not about to propose Prohibition. It didn't work before, it won't work now. If someone trys to say that they were drunk when they did something against someone that constitutes a crime, and begs to be let go because their judgement was impaired, it doesn't fly with me, and I say throw the book at them as if they were sober in the first place. Japan has a law where driving under the influence (or did in the 80s) is punishible by the loss of their drivers liscence for life.

Mind you that this opinion is not because I drink: I do not have more than 1-2 drinks per year, and that is only for a very special occassion, like my fathers 78th birthday.

[Matt]

Hello? Jolo... dysentery? 3000 people all pissing in one spot is going to cause one awfully fierce probelm. I don't even want to think of the shitting aspects.

[Othniel]

Hello? Jolo... dysentery? 3000 people all pissing in one spot is going to cause one awfully fierce probelm. I don't even want to think of the shitting aspects.
This is why we have latrine duty.... or you dig a hole and bury it out in the woods...and have the common cursity to stay away from our water source, thank you! There are enough problems with stream water as is! (Chorlea , and others)

[Ghost 88]

This is why we have latrine duty.... or you dig a hole and bury it out in the woods...and have the common cursity to stay away from our water source, thank you! There are enough problems with stream water as is! (Chorlea , and others)
thought Chorlea was cause by pissing and crapping in your water source?:confused:

[Matt]

Cholera originated in India.

[jolo]

Hello? Jolo... dysentery? 3000 people all pissing in one spot is going to cause one awfully fierce probelm. I don't even want to think of the shitting aspects.

I didn't say it should be encouraged for our people to pee into the rivers... I'm just saying amounts of pee that can't even be measured with the best tools will have a low likeliness of harming anyone...

[Matt]

It's a discipline issue though. We can't tolerate something like that on a small scale, it well lead to wide spread behavior of this sort. We have to let ppl know that it's harmful behavior every single time.

[Glen]

We will have over 3000 people around are water sorce and a lot of children
and kids don't think of were they pee .

We had latrines being dug away from our water supply on day one...I specifically organized that.

You might get some people doing so anyway.

[Ward]

We had latrines being dug away from our water supply on day one...I specifically organized that.

You might get some people doing so anyway.


I'm just thinking how it goes at Boyscout camperies we always find some one not useing them .

[Glen]

We'll see what happens by the end of the poll, but it looks like there isn't a majority opinion as of yet as to what to do with 'drugs'.

Probably, this will have to be re-addressed with more detailed options, possibly dealing with different classes of substances, such as:

Safe, Non-Addictive
Safe, Addictive
Mixed Safety, Non-Addictive
Mixed Safety, Addictive
Unsafe, Non-Addictive
Unsafe, Addictive

For the immediate future, the advice I'd give is don't go to work stoned, don't get kids stoned, and don't put effort into starting a drug based (solely) business.

We'll probably be starting a community medicinal garden with the seeds/cuttings/pods I brought, any indigenous medicinals we can find, and anything others have found that can be used for that. Quite frankly, given our limited resources, any marijuana and opium plants will be needed in the immediate future for medicinal purposes.