ALT: The Hell is Going On?

[Bulgaroktonos]

I'm pretty sure we have a giant misunderstanding on our hands, and this thread is dedicated to figuring this out.

Jolo: Is Ian's Fort at the Apartment or is is located somewhere else, as a separate entity beyond the apartment?

If the former, then everything we've said has bearing on what you are doing, as the main group of people, some 3000 odd individuals, are all camped out there. Thus, it is illegitimate and confusing to start posting about currency and market places when the majority of people at the campsite are not in full support of it.

If the latter, than our criticisms regarding your colony are somewhat illegitimate, as you are a separate political entity with your own economic policy, and therefore, you can do as you please, but expect the moderators, like myself, to keep your growth at a reasonable level.

[jolo]

I'm pretty sure we have a giant misunderstanding on our hands, and this thread is dedicated to figuring this out.

Jolo: Is Ian's Fort at the Apartment or is is located somewhere else, as a separate entity beyond the apartment?

If the former, then everything we've said has bearing on what you are doing, as the main group of people, some 3000 odd individuals, are all camped out there. Thus, it is illegitimate and confusing to start posting about currency and market places when the majority of people at the campsite are not in full support of it.

If the latter, than our criticisms regarding your colony are somewhat illegitimate, as you are a separate political entity with your own economic policy, and therefore, you can do as you please, but expect the moderators, like myself, to keep your growth at a reasonable level.

I see the 272 people who want to stay there as slowly becoming their own community, most of them assembled around the house, while most of the others are assembled a little bit further away - with overlappings.

They elected their mayor separately from the others, and already follow their own interests, as those are pretty different from the rest of the settlers.

While geographically not really separate, they are pretty much economically, as most of what the others are organizing isn't very useful for them, even counterproductive.

Where interests are the same (defense, the big hunt) the guys take part in all activities. Also, nearly no-one doubts the specialists competences or Glen's authority above the mayor. And they are as willing to help the main settlers as they expect the main settlers to help them.

Stocks are organized separate from the main settlement - people built their own (temporary) corrals, built up a separate militia which tomorrow starts training with MBarry, and so on.

[Glen]

I see the 272 people who want to stay there as slowly becoming their own community, most of them assembled around the house, while most of the others are assembled a little bit further away - with overlappings.

Nope. Certainly not in the first week. That apartment is necessary dry storage for a lot of reasons. And there is no reason that the majority of people would move AWAY from it. Your group if they wanted to self segregate would actually have to move away from the apartment to do so, or just wait until (and if) the main group moves on.


They elected their mayor separately from the others, and already follow their own interests, as those are pretty different from the rest of the settlers.

This is where you have overstepped a bit, jolo. You shouldn't unilaterally decide all of that happening. There has been no vote, you've proposed no mayoral candidate, and I'm not entirely clear where this 27oish number comes from (is that adults and children, AH.commers, what?). Was this from a poll? And I also do not agree with your supposition that you can dictate the actions and happenings of this entire group. This needs to be played out more.

I am not saying this as a personal rebuke, but just a statement of how (in my capacity as a moderator) we need to proceed. Really, I don't think this is so much your fault as a general problem we have with people wanting to progress the game while there are still a lot of unresolved issues to sort out. Once we get the basics down, the game will accelerate, but we're just moving it forward too fast, people.


While geographically not really separate, they are pretty much economically, as most of what the others are organizing isn't very useful for them, even counterproductive.

Again, this is an assumption I'd say. We haven't even finished electing a council or setting out our gameplan, nor voted on where the main settlement should be. I keep telling Ward to slow down with the days; this is part of the problem.

And I still think you ought to consider pushing your ideas for the economy with the entire community, they have merit. We may be adopting some of it anyway, so your supposition that what is being organized in the main group isn't very useful may not be true.

Where interests are the same (defense, the big hunt) the guys take part in all activities. Also, nearly no-one doubts the specialists competences or Glen's authority above the mayor. And they are as willing to help the main settlers as they expect the main settlers to help them.

Glad to here this much, at least. But its just too early yet for this level of distinguishing between groups. Why not write about setting up a marketplace, or having your group meeting to make plans for Ian's Fort should the main group move on?


Stocks are organized separate from the main settlement - people built their own (temporary) corrals, built up a separate militia which tomorrow starts training with MBarry, and so on.

According to who? That's not a criticism so much as a real question. Are you the mayor? How did you go about setting up a separate organization from the main settlement? You've got of stuff you are suggesting here, but not a lot of people identified as doing this. Who else is in this with you, jolo, besides purported NPCs? Can you maybe tell us who is doing these things?

[jolo]

Nope. Certainly not in the first week. That apartment is necessary dry storage for a lot of reasons. And there is no reason that the majority of people would move AWAY from it. Your group if they wanted to self segregate would actually have to move away from the apartment to do so, or just wait until (and if) the main group moves on.


The apartment is used as storage by the main settlers. It's already pretty much filled up. People who thought the trek would start earlier keep coming back to get things they thought they'd only need later.

The others didn't move away. They are where the ASBs put them. Only the ones who want to stay concentrated in this area - partly only during the days.


This is where you have overstepped a bit, jolo. You shouldn't unilaterally decide all of that happening. There has been no vote, you've proposed no mayoral candidate, and I'm not entirely clear where this 27oish number comes from (is that adults and children, AH.commers, what?). Was this from a poll? And I also do not agree with your supposition that you can dictate the actions and happenings of this entire group. This needs to be played out more.


I thought this was already debated - and I'll try interact more. Unluckily, there are no other active posters for the first settlement - even though Imajin said at one point he wants to stay, too. An election which involved all of us didn't appear to make sense imo, as the mayor was supposed to be mayoring only the locals. New to this genre, I'd also have expected more people to add some interaction on their own - most important decisions had some preparation in the direction before.

The number of 272 was put up by Darkest90, and apparently accepted by most - due to a poll which actually delivered a higher percentage, but with a high probability of some joke votes. As the number was so far never disputed, I used it. Some of the people changed their mind later. I wouldn't have minded if a moderator posted a story to reflect this. As no-one did, I kept the number.


I am not saying this as a personal rebuke, but just a statement of how (in my capacity as a moderator) we need to proceed. Really, I don't think this is so much your fault as a general problem we have with people wanting to progress the game while there are still a lot of unresolved issues to sort out. Once we get the basics down, the game will accelerate, but we're just moving it forward too fast, people.


I don't really see speed as the main problem - where I had to agree, I slowed things down. The main problem imo is that the majority believes we wouldn't need an economy at the beginning. I tried to role play a part of the settlers deciding otherwise - which didn't really make me friends... :(


Again, this is an assumption I'd say. We haven't even finished electing a council or setting out our gameplan, nor voted on where the main settlement should be. I keep telling Ward to slow down with the days; this is part of the problem.

And I still think you ought to consider pushing your ideas for the economy with the entire community, they have merit. We may be adopting some of it anyway, so your supposition that what is being organized in the main group isn't very useful may not be true.


If this were a real situation, there would definitely be conflicting interests - the main settlers want to have their wagons built asap, while the people staying want their fields, gardens, fishing, and so on up and running asap. There are lots of decisions which the 2 groups can't share - and therefore wouldn't without some infighting in reality.

Also, in reality, people wouldn't wait for a game plan or for others to decide where they like to stay. They'd just do what they believe to be right. You'd have an ant hill full of hectic, chaotic, and sometimes colliding activity, with lots of people trying to direct things - in differing directions.


Glad to here this much, at least. But its just too early yet for this level of distinguishing between groups. Why not write about setting up a marketplace, or having your group meeting to make plans for Ian's Fort should the main group move on?


Imo, people in such a situation would automatically start making decisions - everyone according to his interests, with the usual amount and variation of some altruism. That's why the main settlers started building wagons even though it might have made more sense to first build up the local fishing and farming industry to produce the foods necessary for the trek.

I also did set up a market place - against quite some resistance of many of the main settlers. As my settlers decided to do most on their own, there is not much central planning - but there is some activity on community level.


According to who? That's not a criticism so much as a real question. Are you the mayor? How did you go about setting up a separate organization from the main settlement? You've got of stuff you are suggesting here, but not a lot of people identified as doing this. Who else is in this with you, jolo, besides purported NPCs? Can you maybe tell us who is doing these things?

I try to let my NPC's make decisions which by common sense people might make in such a situation. The reason why I didn't put up a name for the mayor yet was that I hoped someone else would do that to play that role - lack of experience in this genre led me to believe someone would just grab that opportunity. I'd try to do that differently at another time.

Unluckily, not many people are posting their side of the development of this group. But I think something should happen, as this would be realistic - though it could also mean a development in a completely different direction.

[pisces74]

The problem as I see it, (and I may have posted this before,I've got that deja vu feeling, and if I did I don't mean to harp.) Is that we have quite a few people (rangers, wagoneers, medical staff, etc) doing some very nesscessary labor, and drawing off of a communal pot of food, and 272 people keeping their things in seperate corrals, right near our only storage facility, doing their own thing and trying to build a free market. Which I don't see happening especially when the majority of people are kicking into the community chest.

secondly not one person in 272 has needed to go to the doctors hut for any reason, signed up for community service not involved in your deal, or tried to promote the usage of your money. In other words you've set up a curtain right around the center landmark of our community, and no one has noticed until day 7. given the general lack of interest in things of your average human I don't have as much a problem with this as the first and third points,but from a ooc standpoint it smacks of shadeyness, from an in game standpoint congratulations! you've made yourself a political minority in the center of a community which will look for a scapegoat as soon as the food runs out (and at the current rate it will)

Thirdly you and your group are working on a project (currency) at a time when basic survival necessitates working on other things. Do not expect goodwill from your fellow man when food starts to run thin. Because food unlike money doesn't accrue a deficet. Three meals are missed and whatever semblence of law there is goes right out the window and you have despotism or anarchy.

lastly your group looks to have been working 20 hours a day since about day three to be where you're at in the game. Again no write ups that I can find (I'll admit I may have passed over them) and no injuries, defections or even witnessess.


I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm just trying to articulate some issues that some people have been having of late. Its not pick on Jolo day I don't think

[Ghost 88]

The problem as I see it, (and I may have posted this before,I've got that deja vu feeling, and if I did I don't mean to harp.) Is that we have quite a few people (rangers, wagoneers, medical staff, etc) doing some very nesscessary labor, and drawing off of a communal pot of food, and 272 people keeping their things in seperate corrals, right near our only storage facility, doing their own thing and trying to build a free market. Which I don't see happening especially when the majority of people are kicking into the community chest.

secondly not one person in 272 has needed to go to the doctors hut for any reason, signed up for community service not involved in your deal, or tried to promote the usage of your money. In other words you've set up a curtain right around the center landmark of our community, and no one has noticed until day 7. given the general lack of interest in things of your average human I don't have as much a problem with this as the first and third points,but from a ooc standpoint it smacks of shadeyness, from an in game standpoint congratulations! you've made yourself a political minority in the center of a community which will look for a scapegoat as soon as the food runs out (and at the current rate it will)

Thirdly you and your group are working on a project (currency) at a time when basic survival necessitates working on other things. Do not expect goodwill from your fellow man when food starts to run thin. Because food unlike money doesn't accrue a deficet. Three meals are missed and whatever semblence of law there is goes right out the window and you have despotism or anarchy.

lastly your group looks to have been working 20 hours a day since about day three to be where you're at in the game. Again no write ups that I can find (I'll admit I may have passed over them) and no injuries, defections or even witnessess.


I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm just trying to articulate some issues that some people have been having of late. Its not pick on Jolo day I don't think
His community is not the only thing most posters have missed.

[Norbert]

I suppose the loggers could request payment for the land cleared for them and keeping them supplied with fuel, and for constuction materials.

[Darkest]

272 was the result of polling (which was held over what, two-three days?). I actually thought the number we originally got were way too large to be used. So, I made 75% of our group go automatically with the Ianapolis Marchers, and I extrapolated the results of the poll over the remaining 25%.

272 is the number, it could have been three times higher, but it isn't. 272 people think that their children will be threatened by the move to the city. 272 people got started on building permanent locations as soon as they were ISOTed and they realized they don't want to leave them. 272 people think that The Apartment is a structure that will be able to protect them much more efficiently than some log cabin. 272 people want to keep an eye on their stuff that they would otherwise have to leave behind for at least a little while to go and help clear land at the Ianapolis location.

It is a good number.

However, I will admit, how many wish to CONTINUE to stay at the apartment is up in the air. I'd say that at least 1/2, maybe even 2/3 will want to move to Ianapolis, where farms will be better, where there is a larger, safer population, and where the central government is being headed at.

Fort Ian (is that what they are calling it) is simply situated on a bad spot of land. Hunting, logging, foraging, yes... but not farming. It has a structure, yes, one that could be accurately called a Castle, in perspective to its environment. This Fortress will become extremely important, but it will have little food to benefit from. People will leave. But some people will stay. Out of 3000 people, minority opinions can form a sizeable group.

[Glen]

272 was the result of polling (which was held over what, two-three days?). I actually thought the number we originally got were way too large to be used. So, I made 75% of our group go automatically with the Ianapolis Marchers, and I extrapolated the results of the poll over the remaining 25%.

272 is the number, it could have been three times higher, but it isn't. 272 people think that their children will be threatened by the move to the city. 272 people got started on building permanent locations as soon as they were ISOTed and they realized they don't want to leave them. 272 people think that The Apartment is a structure that will be able to protect them much more efficiently than some log cabin. 272 people want to keep an eye on their stuff that they would otherwise have to leave behind for at least a little while to go and help clear land at the Ianapolis location.

It is a good number.

However, I will admit, how many wish to CONTINUE to stay at the apartment is up in the air. I'd say that at least 1/2, maybe even 2/3 will want to move to Ianapolis, where farms will be better, where there is a larger, safer population, and where the central government is being headed at.

Fort Ian (is that what they are calling it) is simply situated on a bad spot of land. Hunting, logging, foraging, yes... but not farming. It has a structure, yes, one that could be accurately called a Castle, in perspective to its environment. This Fortress will become extremely important, but it will have little food to benefit from. People will leave. But some people will stay. Out of 3000 people, minority opinions can form a sizeable group.

Why is the land here bad for farming, again?

Its an apartment, which says to me there isn't a lot of square footage for use there, and certainly not enough for 272 people to shelter in. Its at best a storage area for this large a group.

I think we need to hear the scouting report again about the available sites, and then have another vote...just first as to where the main settlement will be established. Then we can talk about who stays and who goes.

Jolo has kindly consented in PM to retcon a lot of his stuff and let more play out before weighing in on this. I'm going to lock this particular thread, and this discussion if needed can continue on another thread.