A Great War for Antiquity

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

A Great War For Antiquity
POD: Hasdrubal isn’t discovered to have crossed into Italy himself and manages to link up with Hannibal in Italy and destroy the Roman Army under Marcus Livius Salinator. They then march on the city of Rome. and lay it to seige. Not wanting to see Rome destroyed cooler heads prevail in the Senate and make peace with Hannibal. I kmow this isn't the best POD but I don't see any other possible point to begin and no Hannibal couldn't march on Rome after Cannae
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“The defeat of Rome at Carthaginian arms planted the seeds for the final and third war between the Romans and Carthaginians. As Hannibal returned to his city triumphant and victoriously and Italy lay waist to his campaign of terror, it was on that day that the Roman people swore that should war come again between Rome and Carthage again it would either see the end of Rome or the end of Carthage.”
-The Third Punic War by Lucius Vedius Aurelius

Treaty of Brundisium
Despite Hannibal’s victories throughout the Italian peninsula when the peace talks finally began Rome still could bargain from a position of strength. Roman Legions in Iberia, under Publius Scipio were still roaming freely throughout the country and Hannibal had still failed to take hold of any major city throughout Italy. So the talks weren’t dominated completely by Carthage but nevertheless the treaty was mostly dictated by Carthaginian envoys.
The final treaty’s terms were this
-Sicily will remain under the jurisdiction of the Roman Republic, however the Ustica, Aeolian Islands, and the Aegadian Islands will be returned to Carthage
-Corsica and Sardinia will be returned to Carthage
-Carthaginian holdings in Iberia will remain under Carthage’s rule.
-Neither nation shall declare war upon one another or their allies for the next 50 years
-Rome will pay 2000 Talents to Carthage over the next 50 years.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

A Returning Hero


Hannibal returned to Carthage for the first time since his childhood by 206 B.C. a joyous nation declared a week of celebration in honor of the hero. Hannibal and his brothers rode triumphantly through the city on the largest elephants the city could provide. The most distinguished soldiers of Hannibal’s mercenary army paraded through the city, inspiring awe in many of the city dwellers who had never seen such foreign warriors before.

However as the celebrations died down Hannibal began to get busy again. Hannibal, remembering the corruption amongst the Carthaginian government that had nearly destroyed his entire campaign, dedicated himself to reforming Carthage to one make it more efficient and two, remembering his childhood promise to his father, to prepare for any future conflict with Rome. He began by seeking election as Suffete, the city’s head executive and the de facto ruler the Carthaginian Empire. Despite some opposition from the same opponents of his during the Second Punic War Hannibal was easily elected by the popular majority of the people and his co-Suffete was his brother Hasdrubal.

Hannibal instantly began proposing new policies to the Council of Elders, the city’s main legislative body; Hannibal called for the creation of a permanent standing army, a continued policy of militaristic expansion in Spain, and a series of alliances in across the Mediterranean to isolate Rome. In terms of reform of the government Hannibal began reforming the Hundred and Four, a group that decided on the constitutional issues of the government which had accumulated too much power for Hannibal’s liking. He reduced the terms of service from life to two years and once out of office couldn’t run again for five years. These reforms earned Hannibal criticism from his opponents for trying to “Romanize” Carthage. In fact in private Hannibal admitted that one of the few things he admired about the Romans was their system of checks and balances.

These reforms, while popular with the masses, earned Hannibal many enemies amongst the Oligarchy, who detested seeing their power weakened by a man who hadn’t even lived more than two decades in his native city. These two forces in the Carthaginian government would eventually clash in the Hannibalic War

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

A Bitter Enemy
Unlike in Carthage where celebrations were called for Rome was a dark and gloomy place. A good many of priests called the defeat at the hands of Carthage were beginning of the end for Rome. The Senate would go on to declare the day the Treaty of Brundisium to be day of mourning for Rome’s humiliation at the hands of the “African Barbarian”. In those years following the defeat a good many generals who had served in the Second Punic War were tried on charges of “Treason” and other trumped-up charges such as “Failure to Defend the State in its Hour of Need”. A good many lives would be destroyed by these trials, the most common results of the trials would be either be exile or the slitting of one’s own throat. Only Publius Cornelius Scipio would escape such trials, for he remained the only Roman General, along with his father and uncle, to say he had beaten Carthaginian armies. Needless to say the Scipii family was quite popular following the war and would remain so for much time

Rome’s chance to re-prove its military might came in 201 B.C. when it had learned that Macedon and the Seleucid Empire had formed a non-aggression pact and Philip IV, king of Macedon, declared war on the Kingdom of Pergamon . Rome used the excuse to declare war on Macedon. Officially stating it was “defending it’s allies from a brutal tyrant”, however in reality it was to reassert some form of military fear in its neighbors, particularly the Gallic tribes who were growing quite courageous in recent years.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The Second Macedonian War
201 B.C. - 198 B.C.
In 201 B.C. a Roman Army under recently elected Consul, Publius Cornelius Scipio, sailed for Greece and landed in Roman Illyria. Rome’s ally, the Aetolian League was quick to join in with Rome and began raiding the supply ships of Macedonian allied cities.

Scipio sent envoys to Philip V demanding that he end his alliance with Achaean League, end any future ambitions on Greece, and cease his war with the Kingdom of Pergamon. Philip, confident on his alliance made with Hannibal, refused the ultimatum. Meanwhile back in Carthage news of Roman intervention in Greece stirred much debate over what to do however Carthage was in the mists of near-civil war due to the growing conflict between Hannibal and the oligarchy.
Philip marched his army to meet the Romans, confident of both victory and Carthaginian support; his confidence would soon be shattered. The two armies met at the Battle of Dodora where the Macedonian Army was annihilated by the Roman Legions. Philip fell to same trap that Varro had at the Battle of Cannae and threw his army at the Roman center, betting on the superiority of the Phalanx to the Legion. Scipio, like Hannibal, had intentionally weakened his center and strengthened his flanks with calvary and the most experienced veterans. Nearly the entire Macedonian Army was destroyed and Philip was nearly killed himself in the retreat of his troops.

On the next day at the Macedonian camp, Scipio would lay out the end of the war to King Philip with the terms given to him by the senate
-Macedon will renounce all alliances with Achaean League
-Macedon will give up its fleet
-Macedon will pay 3200 Talents as tribute to Rome
-Macedon will not declare war on another nation for 50 years.
-Macedon will relinquish control of its Asia Minor territories to the Kingdom of Pergamon

Philip, with his army virtually destroyed, had not choice to accept the treaty. The short-lived war would officially end in early 198 B.C. when the Senate ratified the treaty.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Aftermath of the Second Macedonian War
The Second Macedonian War would have far reaching consequences upon the ancient world. Following the end of its alliance with Macedon, the Achaean League would be merged with the Aetolian League, and other Greek city-states such as Athens, into a Hellas League. The League was essentially a Roman puppet established to check possible reassertion of Macedon and to establish a Roman presence in the Eastern Mediterranean. Rome and Pergamon would form a much a closer alliance, propelling Roman influence into Asia Minor. However not all of the fallout from the war would be good for Rome. The humiliation of Macedon would drive Philip into securing a more proper alliance with Carthage, giving Carthage a still semi-powerful ally neighboring Rome, which while inconsequential at the time have much greater impact by the time of the Third Punic War.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

thoughts, critiques?

[willbell]

Carthage is much closer to home than Macedonia, the Romans will definitely have to reach a definitive end to Carthaginian wars (in the third punic war, or perhaps later) before they have any chance at the Hellenic powers.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Carthage is much closer to home than Macedonia, the Romans will definitely have to reach a definitive end to Carthaginian wars (in the third punic war, or perhaps later) before they have any chance at the Hellenic powers.
The only real reason Rome attacked Macedonia was to show the Carthaginians, and the rest of the Mediterranean that Rome is still a force to be reckoned with. Rome still has it's eyes on Carthage

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Crisis in Carthage
The reason Carthage had not come to aide of Philip V was due to a number of things. Hannibal, now a member of the Council of Elders, strongly supported intervention on the grounds that Rome violated the Treaty of Brundisium. However many in the Council, fearing Hannibal’s popularity, argued against it saying one the treaty made between Hannibal and Macedon was invalid because it wasn’t approved by the council and two that Hannibal only wished to increase his own glory. As bad as the situation got, it slightly improved when the war was ended. The new Suffete, this time Mago Barca, was quick to draw up a new “official treaty” with Macedon and this time with Council approval.

The worsening relationship finally reached a boiling point when Mago, under the influence of Hannibal, proposed a law that would make grant Namibians and Iberians who had served with Carthage in the Punic Wars citizenship and their own piece of land. Nearly the entire Council of Elders was outraged over the proposition and threatened to have Mago forcibly removed from office. In the aftermath of the meeting many in the Council, led by Hanno II the Great, agreed to have the Barca brothers (Hannibal, Mago, and Hasdrubal) arrested and tried for “war crimes” and if that failed to have them killed.

The plan failed due to a slave leaking it to the Barcid Family. Hannibal and his brothers finally came to conclusion that the Council must be dealt with, permanently. They and their families fled the city, along with units of the Sacred Guard, whom where loyal to Hannibal. They took to eastern Africa to raise an army to march on the city. Mago was sent to Iberia to secure the armies there and Hasdrubal was sent to broker a deal with the kings of Western (Syphax) and Eastern Massylii (Massinassa). Hannibal meanwhile began forming army amongst Carthaginian peasants, farmers, and discharged Punic War soldiers. The start of the Hannibalic War, or the Carthaginian Civil War, had begun.

[King Thomas]

Very orginal.

[willbell]

I must agree, a hannibal tl where Rome doesn't die right away is very original (at least to my memory).

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Hannibalic War Part I
197 B.C. - 195 B.C.
Back in Carthage the Council of Elders, led by Hanno II the Great, was at a loss. The only competent commander they had was Hasdrubal Gisco but only a couple hundred Sacred Guard units to command, while there were a good many of volunteers there were not as much as Hannibal was getting. For the Council their main hope depended on who the Numidian Kingdoms decided to join. When the decision did come it was King Massinassa who joined Hannibal and King Syphax who joined the Council. For Hannibal it was mostly good news as the Eastern Massylii Kingdom was located at the flank of Carthage, however the council also perceived this as good news since now they had an ally, whether or not this ally would be helpful or not appeared to never occur to them.

Meanwhile in Iberia Mago had mostly an easy job, the Carthaginian colony was entirely loyal to Hannibal even the tribes Hannibal had fought brutally for most of his life still preferred him to a distant and foreign council of old men. The most important thing that would occur for Mago in this war would be the securing of Sardinia and Corsica, which Hannibal and Mago suspected Rome would try and snatch up as they had done in the Mercenary War decades ago.

Back in North Africa, Hannibal was now forced to change his strategy. With Western Massylii closer to him it made more sense to take out Syphax immediately then it did the Council. Hannibal then marched his army of some 20,000 men into Western Massylii. Syphax, who had never fought Hannibal before, confidently marched to meet Hannibal in battle. In what became known as the Battle of the Plains the army under Syphax was ambushed while marching intense desert heat and annihilated. Syphax tried to escape but was killed by his own troops who were retreating as well. Hannibal met with Syphax's son and the son agreed to surrender the Kingdom of Eastern Massylii to Hannibal.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Hannibalic War Part II
197 B.C. - 195 B.C.
Meanwhile in Western Massylii King Massinassa, an old war-comrade during the Second Punic War, raised an army and marched towards the Carthage. Hasdrubal Gisco, under pressure from the Council, marched out of the confines of Carthage to meet Massinassa in battle. Hasdrubal would be defeated at the Battle of Zama and retreated to the city of Utica, where held up for a siege. The situation only grew worse when Hannibal arrived to reinforce Massinassa’s army. Hannibal personally met Hasdrubal under a banner of truce and offered surrender with promises that he would be given fair treatment “We all Carthaginians here, let us end this bloodshed.” Hannibal was reported to have said. Nevertheless Hasdrubal refused saying he had a duty to Carthage.

The siege went on for another six months and then finally the city fell after a brutal assault. During the fighting in the streets Hasdrubal was reported to have been seen fighting with his troops until he was finally struck down. The fighting and looting of the city would go on throughout the night. When the night was over Hannibal instantly began preparing his men for the march on Carthage.

Meanwhile in Carthage the situation was despereate. There only commander who had stood a remote chance against Hannibal was dead and only a couple thousand Sacred Guard Units where left defending the city. The Council resorted to desperate measures to try an build some form of defense. Slaves were freed, prisoners pardoned, old men and young children, and even women were all given weapons to defend the city. The situation resembeled that that of Rome following the defeat at Cannae. However some in the Council offered a different approach. They proposed that they should have Rome come in to intervene on their behalf in exhange for Corsica and Sardinia. In any other situation this proposal would meant career suicide, however given the special cicumstances and envoy was sent to Rome to beg for intervention.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

I must agree, a hannibal tl where Rome doesn't die right away is very original (at least to my memory).
thanks. I would of thought someting like this would have already been done

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Hannibalic War Part III
197 B.C. - 195 B.C.
Hannibal reached Carthage within days of his sacking of Utica and immediately laid siege to city. The city’s massive three walls proved to be one of Hannibal’s more formidable foes. He managed to get through the first fall after about three weeks. Hannibal then settled in after seeing how high his casualties were in taking the first wall. Dissent in his army was a problem at first but when news of the Council’s attempt to bring Rome into the conflict emerged the problem was virtually non-existent due to desires of revenge against the Council. As for the envoy that was sent to Rome, it never got there. Sailors loyal to Hannibal captured the envoy and presented them to Mago in Corsica. Mago then sent the news to Hannibal.

After about another two weeks, Hannibal made for another attack on the city. He did manage to get through the second walls but the casualties were becoming too high for Hannibal to sustain. Realizing that he would have to resort to another long-drawn out siege and to starve the populace out, Hannibal began to settle in. To take care of the food transports into the city, Hannibal bought out mercenary-pirates to blockade the port of Carthage.

After about 7 months Hannibal finally received his chance to end the siege. Dissidents in the city offered to open the gates of the city in exchange that Hannibal would let food into city, Hannibal happily agreed and called off his ships. Two days later the gates of Carthage were opened. Only a few die-hard Sacred guard units resisted with much of population surrendering without a fight. Many of the members of the Council willingly surrendered, but a few such as Hanno II committed suicide. Hanno’s head would be put on display in the center of Carthage.

Hannibal was now the undisputed ruler of the Carthaginian Empire.

[ShlomoLen]

Excellent!
I'm definitely subbing.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Aftermath of the Hannibalic War
Hannibal was now one the most powerful men in the Mediterranean. He proclaimed himself Suffete and ordered the dissolution of the Council, the Hundred and Four, and left only the Popular Assembly untouched. Councilmen and Judges who had opposed him were crucified or exiled, with their land acquisitioned by the state.

With absolute power now in his hands, Hannibal could now focus on his long-planned reforms that had been continuously blocked by the Council. He began the creation of a permanent-standing army that all could enlist in, regardless of class or property qualifications. He granted Carthaginian citizenship to Numidians and Iberians who had served with him in his army and granted thousands of soldier’s land grants in Iberia and North Africa. He would form an alliance with the Seleucid Empire following the Roman alliance with Ptolemaic Egypt.

Other changes included the merging of Western and Eastern Massylii into one kingdom, the Kingdom of Numidia, under King Massinassa which was similar to the Hellas League in terms of being a vassal but was much more autonomous. Changes to government he made were that he declared the position of Suffete was for life and could only be removed by a unanimous vote by the Popular Assembly. He created a Suffete Council which were all appointed by the Suffete in charge but were approved by the Popular Assembly. The reforms were done one to increase Hannibal’s popularity and consolidate his power and two to genuinely make the Carthaginian government more efficient.

Hannibal would serve as Suffete of Carthage until his death in 182 B.C. where power was passed on to his son Hamilcar

[willbell]

I am loving it, I don't know much about the time period but it is well written, especially considering the format that can sometimes (not in this case) disappoint.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The Roman Wolf
Back in Rome, the Hannibalic War had some hoping that this would give Rome the chance to retake Corsica and Sardinia but those hopes were quickly dashed when Mago was sent to secure the two islands. However this would not deter Roman expansion into other parts of the Mediterranean. The first act would be the annexation of Illyria. Rome had had Illyrian puppets and protectorates but to counter the possible Macedonian expansions into Illyria, Rome began annexing its several protectorates and would make war on the remaining tribes. Closer to home in Italy the Romans began pushing north into the Gallic tribes of Northern Italy and would only be stopped when they reached the Alps.

Unlike the Carthage which had undergone a massive reform in its society Rome’s had stayed the same for the most part. No civil wars were started, Roman militarization was still commonplace, and the Senate was the still the supreme law of the land. The only thing that really changed was Rome’s foreign policy. Going from a rather lethargic style to an aggressive and very active style.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Reign of Hamilcar Barca Part I
When Hannibal was dying in 182 B.C. he had made the decision to pass power on to his 37 year old son, Hamilcar. He considered his brothers but discarded it citing their ages and stating they would most likely die only a few years after him. When Hannibal finally did die he was finally deified by the Popular Assembly with a large statue of him built off the coast of the city. “It will put the Colossus of Rhodes to shame” declared one Assemblyman. While it didn’t outdo the Colossus it certainly was a technical marvel with the statue being seen from ships miles away as they approached the Carthaginian harbor. Hamilcar would begin his reign mostly as a continuation of the reign of Hannibal, carefully consolidating power and enacting several reforms, such as granting all of Iberians in Carthaginian Iberia citizenship. However a power struggle would emerge soon.

Mago, the youngest of the original Barcid brothers, had taken not being declared Suffete following the Hannibal’s death as a personal offense. He had seen himself as more than worthy of Hannibal’s legacy, not his Hamilcar. He planned on assassinating Hamilcar and having himself put in place. He tried to recruit Hasdrubal, who was now Captain of the Sacred Guard but was turned down. Instead this offer would lead to Hasdrubal to informing his nephew of the plot. When Hamilcar would ask why he even warned him Hasdrubal answered it was because as a Sacred Guardsmen it was his duty and his respect of his dead brother’s wishes. Mago was captured in his sleep, taken to the outskirts of the city, beheaded, and his body was burned. Mago’s fate remained unknown to anyone but Hasdrubal and Hamilcar, even the Sacred Guardsmen who had murdered him where taken out to ensure absolute secrecy.

[MerryPrankster]

Good concept. I like how there'll still be at least one more Punic War and Rome is still in the game. I will keep an eye for updates.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

All Updates will be postponed until Monday

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

I managed to get enough time on the computer to get these following updates posted. Please enjoy
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Reign of Hamilcar Barca Part II
The attempted coup by Mago is what many cite as the beginning of the terror that has become associated with Hamilcar’s reign. After Mago was taken care of, Hamilcar would have Hasdrubal, despite his loyalty, be put on secret surveillance by his secret police, the Eyes of Ba’al. When Hasdrubal finally died in 175 B.C. many assumed it was of Hamilcar’s doing but it was mostly likely of old age. Members of the Popular Assembly would also fall under Mago’s watch. As the years went on Hamilcar would isolate himself more and more, to the point where he even had his own wife exiled from Carthage. As he got older members of the Barcid Family began saying that Hamilcar must have a son if the Barcid were to remain in power. Hamilcar dismissed them saying he would live forever, after all he was the son of a god.

The apparent lack of an heir had many in the Popular Assembly see this as their chance to overthrow the Barcid family and take the position of Suffete. The ambitions would eventually lead to the Night of Swords.

The Nigh of Screams would take place in late March of 173 B.C. When Hamilcar came to realize the amount of plots in the Popular Assembly there were against him he acted immediately. He ordered the Sacred Guard to go to the houses of all suspected plotters against his rule and kill not only the ones involved but their entire families as well. That night the city of Carthage would be filled with the screams of men, women, and children. It is said the screams could be heard all the way in Britannia. The amount of people who died that night remains unknown but the estimates range from 2,500 – 10,000

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Reign of Hamilcar Barca Part III
The Night of Screams would lead to the second thing that the reign of Hamilcar Barca is most well-known for, the Massinissan War. Following the Night of Screams, members of the Popular Assembly fled Carthage in droves. While some fled to Rome, Macedon, and the Seleucid Empire the majority fled to Numidia, still ruled by the aging Massinassa. Hamilcar demanded that Massinassa hand over the refugees or face war with Carthage. Massinassa refused stating the refugees renounced their Carthaginian citizenship and were now Numidian citizens and therefore out of Hamilcar’s jurisdiction. When the news of Massinassa’s refusal was presented to Hamilcar he declared we would see the head of Massinassa placed alongside the head, now a skull, of Hanno II’s which still stood upon a pike in the town center.

Hamilcar marched his army of some 20,000 men out to crush Massinassa. However Massinassa, a veteran of both the Punic and Hannibalic Wars, was more than wise enough to take out the inexperienced general. He and his army never met Hamilcar’s army for the first few weeks of the war, carefully harassing them and drawing them deeper and deeper into the African desert. Then finally after three months of intense marching Massinassa pounced on the Carthaginian army at the Second Battle of the Plains where the exhausted and dehydrated army of Hamilcar was easy pickings for the much faster and refreshed Numidians. Many Carthaginian soldiers were reported to have died more from exhaustion rather than the blade or arrow of a Numidian.

Hamilcar was captured during the battle and forced to sign a treaty that one recognized all the Assemblymen who had fled Carthage were now Numidian citizens and two that Numidia will no longer pay tribute to Carthage and three that all of the POW’s be released without ransom except Hamilcar. With his life at stake Hamilcar had little choice but to sign the treaty.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Reign of Hamilcar Part IV
Upon hearing of the news of Hamilcar’s captured the Popular Assembly would act upon this immediately. Many of the surviving members all argued that they alone were fit for the position of Suffete. However the Sacred Guards would be the ones who ultimately made the decision. The Sacred Guard, along with the portion of the Assembly still loyal to the Barcid Family, placed Hasdrubal Barca’s grandson Hanno Barca in the position of Suffete.

As for Hamilcar, neither the Assembly, the new Suffete Hanno, nor any member of the Barcid Family would offer to pay for Hamilcar’s release. In fact it was declared that any citizen who did so would be executed. He lived the last 15 years of his life in a run-down prison in the Aurès Mountains with little food or water, a forgotten monster. No proper record exists of his treatment there and the only three accounts exist of his life there. The one when he arrived in mid-173 B.C., when an envoy came to say that no payment for his release was to be made, and when he died in 158 B.C.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Finally back from a mini-vacation and so here are the lastest updates.
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The Gallic Wars
170 B.C. - 150 B.C.
While Carthage suffered under the madness of tyranny of Hamilcar, Rome was busy expanding its power and influence on the continent and for Rome the only direction was North, Gaul. By the time of Hannibal’s death Roman was fighting a brutal war with the Gauls. To justify the constant wars with Gauls the Senate passed the Gallic Decree which declared that Rome had the right to do whatever it took to prevent Gallic invasions of Italy, this decree would the make the Gallic provinces located near Nearer Gaul and Further Gaul would make them the most contested amongst the Senators. Notable families would make names for themselves during the Gallic Wars with the Scipii, Claudian, and Julii families making the biggest impact.

The Gallic Wars would wage on and off for twenty years but by 150 B.C. Rome had complete control of the whole of Gaul, with either areas completely annexed by the Romans or with tribes living under the protection of Rome. The spirit of Gallic resistance was crushed and as the last of the tribes were defeated by the Roman legions, the people of Gaul began settling down, more or less accepting Roman rule. The Roman Republic now included not just all of Italy but now Illyria and Gaul.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Reign of Hanno Barca
With the memory of Hamilcar Barca still fresh in the minds of the Assemblymen, Hanno knew he walked a tight robe, unlike Hannibal and Hamilcar he ruled only as long as the Sacred Guard backed him and in order to maintain that he would have to a be a much more benevolent ruler than Hamilcar had been. Hanno saw his way to securing his rule through building up Carthaginian wealth. While Carthage was still an economic source of trade and wealth in recent years it was beginning to fall behind to other cities throughout the Mediterranean. To propel Carthage back to the top Hanno saw the only way was to establish colonies in the far reaches of the world, even beyond the reaches that the great explorer Hanno the Great had discovered. Hanno would send merchants and colonists to West Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, Hibernia, and Britannia. Many cities would be established throughout this colonial empire, such as New Utica in West Africa and New Lilybauem in southwestern Britannia. As these colonial cities began to expand their influence and territory in their respective regions this also brought in conflicts with the local natives, who heavily resisted this foreign presence.

Other accomplishments of the Hanno’s rule would be declaring Iberia now an integral part of Carthage, rekindling the alliance between Carthage and Numidia in 156 B.C., and successfully negotiating a non-aggression pact with Rome that would be good for another 50 years in 154 B.C. (Sometimes considered his greatest accomplishment). The reign of Hanno as Suffete would become known as the “Golden Age of Carthage” and because of this is sometimes placed above Hannibal as the greatest of the Suffetes. Hanno would die in 133 B.C., after nearly 40 years of his rule, at the age of 69. Besides Hannibal, he would be the only Suffete deified by the Popular Assembly upon his death.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The Punic Colonies
While many colonies would be establish throughout the known world by Carthage the two most successful and long-lasting would be the colonial cities of New Utica and New Lilybauem. As with all civilizations they all leave some form of lasting impact on the world once they collapsed. For Carthage it would be these two colonies.

New Utica would become the largest of the colonies established in Africa and would grow rich from slave trade, discovery of gold, and lack of a large hostile native population that could resist the Carthaginians. It would become a prime destination spot for many traders and explorers who wanted to continue the discoveries of new resources and trade. However New Utica would not just be a power at sea but also one on land, it expanded deeper and deeper in Africa forcing the various African tribes into a confederation loyal to Carthage.

Meanwhile the second of the most well-known and greatest of the Carthaginian colonies would be the city of New Lilybauem. New Lilybauem was located in southwestern Britannia and faced a much harder time in establishing a Carthaginian presence on the island. The city constantly faced the threat of attacks from hostile Britannic tribes. However unlike in New Utica which was more than capable of defending itself, New Lilybauem received much more troops from Carthage and so was able to build a large substantial military army on the island and was able to fend off Britannic attacks and take control of the southwestern province of Britannia.

While there were other successful colonies in other parts of the world, most notably New Tyre in Hibernia, none would outlive Carthage as long as these two cities would.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Macedonian Succession Crisis
With the death of Hanno Barca in 133 B.C and the succession of Hannibal II the Mediterranean would remain at relative peace, there were some minor conflicts in the Eastern Mediterranean but overall it would be peaceful. However in 115 B.C. the King of Macedon, Philip VII, would die at the age of 30 just two years into his reign. Philip had left no clear heir and a possible succession war appeared to be on the horizon. Of all the claims to the throne two had the strongest claims. One was Cassander, the son of Philips dead brother, and Pyrrhus, the son of Philip’s dead sister. Cassander received heavy support from the more economically powerful cities and Rome, due to him being a Roman client. Pyrrhus had support mostly from the agrarian populace and Carthage, because he was married to the Suffete’s, Hannibal II, daughter, Spanibal.

Both Rome and Carthage pledged to support their clients but that would soon be tested when violence began breaking out in the cities of Macedon between the two claimant’s supporters. Upon hearing this news Hannibal II asked the Assembly to allow Carthage to send an intervention force to Macedon to end the violence and put Pyrrhus on the throne. The Assembly approved, discarding the thought of Roman intervention on the behalf of their claimant.

When news reached Rome of this news roars of outrage filled the Senate halls and under pressure from Consul Appius Aemilianus the Senate declared war on Carthage and immediately called in its allies (Egypt, the Hellas League, and Kingdom of Pergamon). When Carthage received news of this it called in its ally the Seleucids and Epirus. The Third Punic War had begun.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Thoughts?, Critiques?

[Timmy811]

I agree with Merry, great concept. As for critiques, more detail would be welcome and I'd like to see some maps.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

I agree with Merry, great concept. As for critiques, more detail would be welcome and I'd like to see some maps.
You know where I can make a map?

[Berserker]

dammm...daaaam....DAAAAAMMM..I like:D

subscribed for sure.

wil gaul really not rebel against rome as soon as they fight carthage again:confused:

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

dammm...daaaam....DAAAAAMMM..I like:D

subscribed for sure.

wil gaul really not rebel against rome as soon as they fight carthage again:confused:

Well by the time of the Third Punic War, Gaul has been under Roman rule for about 35 years and this was after a twenty year war series of wars with Rome and so by this point they are properly subjacated province with many new born Gauls thinking themselves as Romans rather than Gauls. Remember in the OTL Caesar managed to turn all of Gaul into a loyal province in eight years for 400 years, so to make Gaul loyal to Rome in about 35 years isn't that unlikely. Thank you for subscribing.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Any one know how to make a map?

[Monopolist]

I like this timeline. You use the same POD as I did (and as a lot of people who make Second Punic War timelines do), but it's original and well-done. Very different from my timeline. My only complaints are that Philip IV is actually Philip V of Macedonia, and that there's not much about how Rome managed to conquer all of Gaul. That was a tricky conquest for a much more powerful Rome, and I guess I'd just like a little more explanation as to how the wars went. Also, that seems like a long time to wait for a third war given Rome's jingoism and how powerful both states are.

One more thing: what happened to Scipio after the war with Macedonia?

You know where I can make a map?

You've got MS Paint (or an equivalent), right? Just take something from the blank map thread and color it in. At least, that's what I always do.

If you want me to help you out though, I'd be willing and able. :)

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

I like this timeline. You use the same POD as I did (and as a lot of people who make Second Punic War timelines do), but it's original and well-done. Very different from my timeline. My only complaints are that Philip IV is actually Philip V of Macedonia, and that there's not much about how Rome managed to conquer all of Gaul. That was a tricky conquest for a much more powerful Rome, and I guess I'd just like a little more explanation as to how the wars went. Also, that seems like a long time to wait for a third war given Rome's jingoism and how powerful both states are.

One more thing: what happened to Scipio after the war with Macedonia?



You've got MS Paint (or an equivalent), right? Just take something from the blank map thread and color it in. At least, that's what I always do.

If you want me to help you out though, I'd be willing and able. :)

1. The reason Rome hasn't gone to war with Carthage is that its been involved in wars with the Gauls for a while so its busy but revenge on Carthage has always been on top of the agenda

2. I do plan on detaling the Gallic Wars much more eventually

3. Scipio served in the Illyrian Wars and served the rest of his life as an elder statesman. His descendents went on to go fight in the Gallic Wars and I plan on including a couple of Scipii's in the current war

[Zuvarq]

Great TL but it does seem to me too that Rome should have declared war again aleady.

Also MS Paint comes with all Windows computers. If you don't have a Microsoft operating system then get Paint.NET.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The Rise of Appius Aemilianus Part I
“No man can say he ever won much glory for Rome as Appius did, but also no man can say he brought Rome to near collapse as he did. An enigmatic figure he was in his own lifetime and remains to this day both a legend and nightmare”
-The Lives of Romans by Marcellus Pulcher

Appius Aemilianus was born in 165 B.C. of a small noble family. He came from a military to say the least. His father and older brother had commanded legions in the Gallic Wars earning distinction for their bravery. Ancestors on both his father’s and mother’s families had fought in both the First and Second Punic Wars, so needless to say a career in the army was what many assumed the young Appius would do.

Unfortunately for Appius he would live mostly a quiet life, due to the Gallic Wars dying down however that would not stop Appius. When a Gallic rebellion broke out in Northern Gaul, Appius immediately signed up for the legion and managing to get the position of Centurion. He would earn distinction for being the first soldier to penetrate the fortress the Gallic rebels were hiding in and holding out for 15 minutes before reinforcements arrived. When the rebellion was crushed he would return to Rome and become a Tribune of the Plebs.

While Tribune he proposed various ideas but none so prominent as his Military Reform Law. The law he proposed would abolish land qualifications for joining the army and would grant land after their service, but only after twenty-five years of service. While opposed by those of the aristocracy, Appius would break tradition and go over the Senate’s head and propose it directly to the People, and the law passed with near-universal support. Rome’s manpower would go through the roof when recruits for the army began pouring in.

While Appius basically established a permanent army and solved Rome’s manpower problem, his going over the Senate’s head to get it passed earned him numerous enemies in the Senate. On one occasion an assassination attempt was made on Appiu’s life, he narrowly avoided it, but managed to survive it. While there was no conclusive evidence to prove it was the Senate, however it was fairly obvious the most to gain from Appius’s death was the Senate. When asked about the Senate obviously fearing him he stated “It is better to have the fear of the Senate than their respect.”

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Rise of Appius Aemilianus Part II
Following the assignation Appius would go own to serve as Tribune of the Plebs three consecutive times in 24 B.C., 23 B.C., and 22. B.C, receiving various death threats and assassination attempts throughout his terms. Following his last Tribuneship in 23 B.C. he left Rome to go serve as a mercenary in the Seleucid Army in its conflicts with the Parthian rebels in the Eastern most portions of the world. Like in Northern Gaul he would gain distinction for his bravery.

After about five years of serving with the Seleucids he would return to Rome in 118 B.C. where he gained fame when he published memoirs of his adventures and would amass a great wealth. Then finally he ran for the Consulship and thanks to bribes, death threats, and master oratorical skills, would win the Consulship at the age 30, 11 years before the proper age. He would face a hostile Senate at first but that would all be moved aside when the Macedonian Crisis emerged, their common hatred would unite them.

By the end of the year, nearly the whole of the Mediterranean was at war, Appiu’s consulship would end and he would assume command the army of the Gaul, set to invade Iberia.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

War in Macedonia Part I
Rome would have a much easier time fighting in Macedonia than Carthage would. Rome’s border with Macedon would make it much easier for Rome to pour in troops to support Cassander than it would for Carthage to support Pyrrhus, which had to transport its supplies across the Mediterranean. Rome sent about 15,000 troops (Three Legions) under the command of Claudius Pulcher to take command of the situation in Macedon. Pulcher soon met up with Cassander in Macedon and marched to meet Pyrrhus.

However the joint Roman/Macedonian Army would meet disaster when it was beaten by the Macedonian/Epirus Army under Pyrrhus at Epidammus. Pulcher at basically thrown his troops against the Macedonian phalanxes. With the Roman/Macedonian Army pinned down, the Companion Calvary led by Pyrrhus himself charged Roman flanks and forced a route of the Roman/Macedonian forces. The Roman Army would retreat back in Roman Illyria to lick its wounds. When the Senate heard of this disaster it sent Gaius Cornelius Scipio, descendent of the famed Publius Scipio, to take command of the situation.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

180525

Alright here's a map I think can sum up the situation.
Red: Rome
Green: Carthage
Purple: Epirus
Gold: Hellas League
Black Macedon:
Pink: Pergamon
Light Green: Pontus
Orange: Armenia
Grey: Selecuid Empire
Brown Egpyt
Yellow: Numidia
Black in Asia Minor: These are indepdent small kingdoms

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

This is just a question to all those who enjoy reading this and are subscribed. Would you like the possbility of rebooting this timeline. IF were to do it it would much more detailed and would go well beyond the Great War, However updates would a lot less frequent. Please respond.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

War in Macedonia Part II
When Gaius arrived in Illyria he not only had the problem of beating the Macedonian/Epirus Army, but also had to repair the damage inflicted on his army by the disastrous Battle of Epidammus. He withdrew his forces deeper into Illyrian territory, igniting a Fabian strategy as used in the Second Punic War. This strategy would cause him much criticism from his political enemies in Rome. However the Battle of Scorda where Gaius Scipio, finally reinforced by troops from Italy, defeated the Macedonian Army under Pyrrhus. During the battle Pyrrhus himself had been killed by his retreating troops, his body would be brought to Gaius Scipio who would then have the body crucified while declaring Cassander King of Macedon.

After the battle Gaius began moving his troops into Macedon his movements clearly showing that he was heading for Pella. However Alexander, a cousin of Philip, would take command of the pro-Carthaginian forces and would successfully rally the pro-Carthaginian forces to fend off the Roman invasions. However unlike other commanders throughout the war, Alexander was smart enough to know when he was outmatched, and so he took his 13,000 army and fled to the Seleucid Empire where he would try and build a proper army to retake Macedon. Before stepping on his boat that would take him to Asia Minor he boldly stated “The King Shall Return.”

Alexander’s flight would one bring most of Macedon under control of both the Romans and Hellas League and two be a great propaganda victory for the Romans. The most famous phrase referencing Alexander’s flight would be “Alexander the Great went to the east to conquer, Alexander the Pretender goes to the east to grovel. “

[Zuvarq]

This is just a question to all those who enjoy reading this and are subscribed. Would you like the possbility of rebooting this timeline. IF were to do it it would much more detailed and would go well beyond the Great War, However updates would a lot less frequent. Please respond.I say keep doing it in this basic format.

[Herzen's love-child]

Ditto to keeping this format this time around. Then do Version 2 in best detailed style!

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The War in Iberia Part I
While Macedon was where the war started, it would not receive as much attention as the Iberian front would. It war here would be divided up into two theaters (Northern Southern) with Appius Aemilianus taking command of the army marching towards New Carthage and Tiberius Nero taking command of the army in the north where it would annihilate Carthaginian presence there.

It would be in the Iberian front where Appius would show that his military skills didn’t end with just pure bravery. His moved his army at quick speeds, giving them only mere hours of rest, and while on these forced marches would scorch and decimate the country side around him to make it inhospitable to his Carthaginian forces even at the expense of his own men. When they came upon villages the civilians were given the option of accept Roman dominance or face destruction and when towns heard of what he did to towns that dared refused they thanked him for even giving them the option.

When Appius finally faced his first Carthaginian Army, he had some reason to fear. The army arrayed against him was a joint Carthaginian/Iberian composed of 6,000 Iberian Calvary, 20 African War Elephants, and about 35,000 infantry (consisting of Carthaginians, Iberians, Numidians, and transplanted Gauls),ironically commanded by Hannibal III (son of Suffete Hannibal II). Historians years later would remark it was as if the army of Hannibal during the Second Punic Wars had been resurrected.

Nevertheless Appius would prove much more competent than the Roman commanders of the Second Punic War ever where. When battle finally came he ordered servants of the army to make loud noise where ever they could to frighten the Elephants when they were ordered to charge. The noise worked and most of the elephants went charging back to their own troops, the ones that continued to charge forward, Appius simply ordered his troops to step out the way. With the Carthaginian Army in chaos Appius ordered his Legions to charge, with him leading from the center. The disarrayed Carthaginians fled almost instantly, even when the enemy Calvary tried to outflank him raised the signal for his own cavalry and a special contingent of infantry to outflank the enemy. The route was where the real bloodshed would be with both infantry and cavalry cutting down the Carthaginians. An estimated 10,000 Carthaginians would be cut killed and would retreat northward to lick its wounds, leaving New Carthage virtually undefended. New Carthage was exactly were Appius planned to go.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

War in Iberia Part II
With the road to New Carthage cleared Appius instantly began making a forced march towards to the city. His speed managed to catch the city off-guard when he arrived just a day after the news of the defeat reached the city. With little more than a mere militia and some Sacred Guard units, the city was overrun in a mere five days. To celebrate Appius ordered the troops to loot and destroy the city, it its estimated that the amount of money taking away from that city was about the equivalent of 2000 Talents.

While Rome was experiencing success in the southern half of the peninsula in the north disaster would strike when the army under Tiberius Nero would be annihilated by two Carthaginian armies commanded by Hannibal III and Hanno II (Another one of Hannibal II’s sons). Now with one Roman army taken out both of the armies began marching south to meet Appius. With New Carthage destroyed, Appius had little reason to let himself get caught in siege and fled the city with his army. He initiated a Fabian strategy where he avoided direct conflict with the two enemy armies and harassing them at every corner. Hannibal III took what remained of his army and occupied New Carthage while Hanno II would continually try and draw Appius into a new battle.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Disastrous Undertaking
When the war began Corsica and Sardinia were made top military targets for the war. Even when Rome was forced to give them up during the Second Punic War it still considered them its own territories. Almost instantly when the war began Rome dispatched two legions to seize the island of Corsica. The natives were shocked by the quick arrival of the Roman force and island fell in a matter of days. The victory was lauded as the noble reunion of two peoples. Carthage would make no attempt to try and retake the island, its forces already busy in Africa, Iberia, and Sicily it could little afford such a venture.

The relative ease of taking Corsica greatly inflated the ego of the commander Caius Cornella, almost immediately he began drawing up plans for an invasion of Sardinia. Possessing no great military skill like Gaius Scipio or Appius Aemilianus, when he landed his army in Sardinia he made a fool-hardly siege of the most defended city on the island. Meanwhile on the sea the navy the transported him there was driven off by a Carthaginian navy, stranding Caius and his men on the island. The situation would only get worse when an army of mercenaries (Carthage reverting to its old practices) landed on the island and nearly destroyed the entire army, Caius would commit suicide after the battle than let himself become a prisoner of the Carthaginians.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

War in Iberia Part III
Back in Iberia Appius finally met Hanno II in battle. Appius had withdrawn closer to Roman Gaul, where he picked up much supplies and reinforcements, and now he was ready for a fight. He lined his troops up ready for battle and managed to get Hanno to play offense. Like Hannibal at Cannae and Scipio at Dordora, he had intentionally weakened his center and strengthened his flanks and encircled Hanno’s army crushing it. Hanno II would die in the battle with his body unfound.

Now the road to New Carthage was once again nearly defenseless but Appius wouldn’t be the one to command the march. Days after the battle the Roman senate recalled Appius back the Italy to take command of the army sent to counter the Carthaginian invasion of Sicily.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

180650
Here's how the wars going so far. Light Red is territory occupied by Romans and Light Green occupied by the Carthaginians

[Berserker]

Well by the time of the Third Punic War, Gaul has been under Roman rule for about 35 years and this was after a twenty year war series of wars with Rome and so by this point they are properly subjacated province with many new born Gauls thinking themselves as Romans rather than Gauls. Remember in the OTL Caesar managed to turn all of Gaul into a loyal province in eight years for 400 years, so to make Gaul loyal to Rome in about 35 years isn't that unlikely. Thank you for subscribing.

Too bad, but I can respect the discision ;)

after all, this is a Carthage TL:)

awsome updates btw

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Too bad, but I can respect the discision ;)

after all, this is a Carthage TL:)

awsome updates btw
I plan on shifting to Rome eventually.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

War in Asia Minor Part I
When Alexander fled Macedonia with his army to Asia Minor he was received warmly the Seleucid government. Both Alexander and King Seleucus were confident they could overrun the Roman ally of Pergamon and retake Macedonia. They began advancing their armies into Pergamon and would not find much of resistance at first but were shocked when they came upon a Roman Army commanded by Gaius Scipio himself, along about 4,000 companion cavalry led by Cassander Despite the shock they were still confident of victory. Scipio had about 24,000 troops altogether compared to the combined 48,000 strong army of Alexander and Seleucus.

The two kings planned that one would take his army, make a forced march around the Roman Army, and have the Roman army surrounded by morning. The plan might have worked had they not been taking for by surprise when Gaius Scipio launched an attack on their camp at night. In the chaos that followed thousands would die but the Romans had the advantage of surprise and readiness while the two king’s armies were unprepared and half-asleep. In the chaos the two kings and parts of their army would escape but it would be a while before they could build another army to take on the Romans. However not all was good for the Romans during the chaos Cassander was killed by his own troops who had mistaken him. With no other pro-Roman member of the Macedonian Royal family in reserve, Macedonia was declared an official protectorate of the Rome.

For Kings Seleucus and Alexander the situation would go from bad to worse when the kingdoms of Pontus and Armenia, after some promises from Roman diplomats, declared war on the Seleucid Empire.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The War in Sicily Part I
Carthage had its eyes in on retaking Sicily long before the Third Punic War, dating all the way back to the end of the First Punic War. With Roman forces engaged all across the Mediterranean now Carthage finally had its chance. Many military advisors of Hannibal II and the Popular Assembly advised against the expedition saying it the war in Iberia took precedence over the war in Sicily. However their advice was not heeded and a grand expedition was planned. Hannibal II’s third son, Hasdrubal, was given command of the expedition and several Popular Assemblymen joined the expedition.

Just as Rome surprised Carthage with its quick grab of Corsica, Carthage surprised Rome with its invasion of Sicily. Rome had depleted the garrison of the island, confident that it could prevent a Carthaginian invasion of the island with offensives elsewhere. This overconfidence would result in Carthage overtaking half the island in a mere few weeks after they arrived.

To combat this threat the Senate instantly began assembling an army to toss the Carthaginians out of Sicily, they would assign Appius Aemilianus to the job.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The War in Sicily Part II
Appius Aemilianus led his about five legions into Sicily, however instead of landing in territory still held by the Romans he had his navy land in Carthage-held Sicily. He quickly overran the defenses built by the Carthaginians and in a very controversial move ordered Lilybauem to be burned to ground, his reasoning being that the city hadn’t properly resisted when the Carthaginians arrived.

When the news reached the Carthaginian Army of the Roman landing almost instantly it turned around and went off to face the army, unfortunately for the Carthaginians they played right into Appius’s hands. When the army turned around, the second half of Appiu’s army that he had left in Southern Italy landed behind them. Now the Carthaginians had to two Roman armies to contend with. Realizing they face destruction, Hasdrubal II sent a message to Carthage, via their last remaining port, to get the fleet to Sicily as soon as possible. Hasdrubal then dug his army in in the southeastern portion of the island and prepared to hold out for the Roman onslaught.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

180824

The Situation in Sicily

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

thoughts?, critiques?

[forget]

Has Julius Caesar been butter flied away yet?

Without a conquest of Gaul power grab he and others could be much less able to erode away at the roots of the Roman Republican system.

What are the current factions within the Senate?

Who leads these factions?

Juliua Magnus thank you for the many update and maps.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Has Julius Caesar been butter flied away yet?

Without a conquest of Gaul power grab he and others could be much less able to erode away at the roots of the Roman Republican system.

What are the current factions within the Senate?

Who leads these factions?

Juliua Magnus thank you for the many update and maps.

The Caesar we know has been butterflied away

There's not real factions in the Senate like there were by this time period in OTL but there are supporters of Appius and Scipio in the Senate. they aren't at eachother's throats as they were OTL...yet anyway.

[Monopolist]

thoughts?, critiques?

Good stuff, although I'm going to be honest: I'm really impressed with how you seem to be mastering maps so quickly! Each one is better and better. :cool:

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Good stuff, although I'm going to be honest: I'm really impressed with how you seem to be mastering maps so quickly! Each one is better and better. :cool:
thank you, I practiced alot with it.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Sorry for the recent absence here's a small update. I'll try and get more out soon.
---------------

Another Disastrous Undetaking
A lesser known disaster perpetrated by the Romans was Gnaeus Cassius’s invasion of Britannica. The reason for it not receiving much attention was due to it not actually being approved by the Senate or official Roman Legions were used. Rather it was an army composed of mercenaries and citizens who didn’t meet the qualifications for service in the army. Gnaeus planned on invading Britannica and seizing the Carthaginian colonies and taking over the southern half of the isle and this propelling Roman power even further.

When New Lilybauem received news of the threat it immediately called upon its Britannic allies to its aid. Unfortunately only about half of Carthage’s allies answered the call, with the others either staying neutral of siding with Rome. However despite the willingness of some tribes to ally with the Romans some quickly returned to Carthage upon seeing the Roman’s brutal ransacking across the land. All and all the Carthaginians were able to assemble about 5,000 men however the Romans had 8,000.

However the deciding factor would not be the numbers but the Romans mistake in their policy towards the native Britons. As stated earlier Rome was ravaging the countryside which had infuriated many of the natives and drove many tribes to Carthage. One of which would be the Briton, Cunobelinus.

Cunobelinus would become a spy for the Carthaginians and lead the Roman mercenary army into an ambush and would result in nearly all of the 8,000 Roman army to be butchered. Gnaeus’s head was brought to the town square of New Lilybauem to be displayed. after being paraded through the street.

Upon hearing of the annihilation the reaction was of course outrage, more directed at Gnaeus trying to rob glory than the disaster. Nevertheless the Roman Senate would declare that it would not cease this war until all parts of the Carthaginian Empire would lie in ruins, reaffirming their commitment to war.

[DanaF]

I've loved reading this TL so far. Especially the use of 3-4 different fronts. It really does feel like reading a timeline between several great powers. I'm just hoping that even if Carthage loses, it manages to come back for a round 4.

[Berserker]

However the deciding factor would not be the numbers but the Romans mistake in their policy towards the native Britons. As stated earlier Rome was ravaging the countryside which had infuriated many of the natives and drove many tribes to Carthage. One of which would be the Briton, Cunobelinus.


will he become more powerfull then OTL???

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

will he become more powerfull then OTL???

who ?, Cunobelinus.

[Berserker]

who ?, Cunobelinus.

...Jup;)...

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

...Jup;)...
maybe....;)

[JackExpo]

Very interesting TL, keep up the good work.

My only question is where exactly is New Utica? Is it down the Moroccan coast (just off the map) or is further south, around OTL Dakar? Depending on its longevity and location, I could see a Carthaginian-influenced African state becoming a significant player and strong enough to fend off Europeans, at least by the time the Portuguese start exploring. I'm seeing a lot on similarities with Ethiopia/Axum.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Very interesting TL, keep up the good work.

My only question is where exactly is New Utica? Is it down the Moroccan coast (just off the map) or is further south, around OTL Dakar? Depending on its longevity and location, I could see a Carthaginian-influenced African state becoming a significant player and strong enough to fend off Europeans, at least by the time the Portuguese start exploring. I'm seeing a lot on similarities with Ethiopia/Axum.

181232
Here's what the Carthaginian African Empire looks like. The light green is territory under influence and yellow is in Numidia

[Berserker]

maybe....;)

..
..
..
..
a crap. more stuff to read during my holliday XD (good thing though)

also: very interesting map: effectifly and simply showing Carthage's dominion

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

War in Asia Minor
The declarations of war by Pontus and Armenia on the Seleucid Empire would the death sentence of the Seleucid Empire. For years the Seleucid Empire had been on a decline and now in the wake of these great defeats would see final nail in the coffin. Roman, Pergamon, Pontus, and Armenian armies were forcing Seleucids out of Anatolia, Ptolemaic Egypt was forcing the Seleucids out of the Sinai Peninsula, and finally Parthian hordes began pouring into the far eastern portion of the empire.

King Selecuis, out of anger, blamed Alexander for his empire’s spiraling downfall and one night he had Alexander executed in front him while he was dining. Meanwhile he continued his retreat deeper and deeper into his empire, hoping the Romans would lose interest and leave. However his son, angered with his father for ruining the empire would have inherited killed his father in his sleep. The new King Seleucus immediately called for a peace to be made between him and Rome and its allies.

The King and Gaius Scipio met in Antioch where the partition of the empire was made and ended the war in the Eastern Mediterranean.

181239
Here's a map after the Patrition of Antioch

[willbell]

One little nitpick, Rome is way to good, so far they have really only had two major losses that didn't turn out to be a victory in disguise (britannica colony, Sardinia), and that was a force of less than 4 legions in all. Not only have they not lost but they appear to be more powerful than OTL, I find this a little unlikely since they suffered through multiple periods of peace when their economy was based almost entirely on war.
I want to see the Carthaginian fleet take Corsica! Iberia cleared of Roman barbarian! Hannibal's children marching through the gates of Rome!
But hey its your timeline you can do whatever you want with it.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

One little nitpick, Rome is way to good, so far they have really only had two major losses that didn't turn out to be a victory in disguise (britannica colony, Sardinia), and that was a force of less than 4 legions in all. Not only have they not lost but they appear to be more powerful than OTL, I find this a little unlikely since they suffered through multiple periods of peace when their economy was based almost entirely on war.
I want to see the Carthaginian fleet take Corsica! Iberia cleared of Roman barbarian! Hannibal's children marching through the gates of Rome!
But hey its your timeline you can do whatever you want with it.
Soon, this war has just gotten started.

[Berserker]

Soon, this war has just gotten started.

:eek::eek: iff I wassnt such a Barbarian, I would feel bad for the Roman republic
...
...
..wait....thats not true XD

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

A Blessing for Carthage
2 ½ years into the war and all in all it was going pretty well for Rome. Carthaginian presence in Iberia was smashed, the war in the east was won, and the Carthaginian expedition to Sicily had been reversed into a Roman victory. In the Senate many ambitious senators were planning on proposing an expedition to Carthage, in hopes of finally destroying the African superpower. Meanwhile in Carthage there was talk amongst the popular assembly of over throwing Hannibal II from power and making peace with Rome. However neither Rome nor Carthage would expect what was to come next.

In the northern portion of Gaul the Germanic tribe of the Teutones invaded Roman Gaul in search of new land and loot. For the Romans this could not have come at a worse time, most of their professional legions and generals were hundreds of miles away from Gaul and had virtually nothing to throw them back with. To try and solve the problem immediately as possible the Roman Senate withdrew the Roman Army from Iberia to counter this threat, with Carthaginian presence smashed it looked like a good idea. Unfortunately other circumstances would only magnify the situation for the Romans.

In Sicily the Carthaginian expedition force had managed to hold off the Roman onslaught by Appius and managed to successfully evacuate its army over the course of a weak, one of the few black spots on Appius’s record. To Hasdrubal’s surprise the army was not being taken back to Carthage but to Iberia to retake the lost territory. Meanwhile when the Roman Iberian Army finally met the Teutones the battle resulted in a complete annihilation of the Roman army with nearly 50,000 Romans perishing in the battle, the greatest defeat inflicted on the Romans since Cannae, over a century ago. Meanwhile Rome’s top commanders (Gaius Scipio and Appius Aemilianus) were rushing to Rome’s defense but it would be time before they could do such a thing.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

181316
Here's a map showing the Teutonnes progress

[willbell]

I like it.

[forget]

So the race of super humans march out of left field laying waste to an entire professional Roman army.:eek:
With out answering critical questions just how big was the Teutones army to achieve this miraculous victory?
With out a great migration period how were the Germanic people able to concentrate enough man power to take on the might of Rome?

[Herzen's love-child]

This wouldn't be all that many years before the OTL Cimbrian War which featured some heavy Roman defeats before Marius defeated the Teutons in 102BC. So.....?

[willbell]

So the race of super humans march out of left field laying waste to an entire professional Roman army.:eek:
With out answering critical questions just how big was the Teutones army to achieve this miraculous victory?
With out a great migration period how were the Germanic people able to concentrate enough man power to take on the might of Rome?
I have to agree with #80 on some parts, however as issue for me is why did they set up a territorial area, or is that just a vague description of where their tribe would be somewhat in control.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

I have to agree with #80 on some parts, however as issue for me is why did they set up a territorial area, or is that just a vague description of where their tribe would be somewhat in control.
Its mostly territory they are ravagining but also control.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The War Starts to Pick Up
With the Roman Army in Iberia annihilated by the Germans the Carthaginians had more than a walkthrough in retaking the rest of the peninsula. When Hasdrubal landed in Iberia he planned on rebuilding his rather tarnished reputation and taking the war to Rome itself by invading Roman Gaul, guarded by only a few garrisons in cities and it would be a while before Rome could assemble an army to try and counter both the German and Carthaginian threat.

Meanwhile Rome resorted to desperate measures to try and turn the war back in its favor. For the first time since the Second Punic War a Dictator was appointed with Appius Aemilianus being given the position. His first act was to order the withdrawal of Roman legions from Macedon, Epirus, and Greece and had Macedon and Epirus made a part of the Hellas League. National Conscription for all Roman citizens and allies was put in place, and legions in Corsica and Sicily were withdrawn.

Back in the east, Gaius Scipio was preparing for a daring assault he marched his army into Egypt and took camp there to prepare for an invasion of Carthage and Numidia. He had no official orders but he knew that with the Senate and Appius’s eyes busy with the Teutones and Carthaginians, he and his army were an afterthought.

[TaylorS]

Interesting timeline! bookmarked.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Appius Takes Command
Despite demands from Senators that the invading Carthaginian Army to be taken out first, Appius deemed the Germans a greater threat to Rome than a weakened-Carthaginian army led by a subpar commander. He assembled two armies and took command of one and gave command to his trusted commandant Decimus Antonius. Appius’s plan was to go at the Germans from two sides. Appius would command the frontal assault marching towards the Germans while Antonius would take command of the army that marches around the Germanic horde and would surround the Germans. The plan omitted any engagement with the Carthaginians but to satisfy the worried Senators, Appius left three legions to guard Italy in the case of Carthaginian penetration of Italy.

For Hasdrubal and his army he had an easy walkthrough of taking over parts of Roman Gaul and decided to change his plans. Instead of taking over Roman Gaul, Hasdrubal made a march for Italy itself, emulating his great ancestor and father’s namesake, Hannibal. This would coincidently come in conjunction with another Carthaginian invasion of southern Italy that was based in Sardinia.

Back in Africa, Gaius Scipio was facing trouble with the Ptolemies. Egypt had been lukewarm about the war and had made little penetration into Numidia, focusing more on the Seleucids, and now with the Seleucids knocked out of the war was planning on returning to peace. Now with a whole Roman Army camped outside of Alexandria put a serious damper on their plans.

Gaius Scipio wanted and Egyptian support army, along with food for his army and it seemed the Ptolemies were intentionally trying to forestall and delay. Even when Gaius threatened to kill King Ptolemy himself it didn’t move things along any faster, many in the Egyptian court aspired to have him killed for his rudeness thinking that Rome would care little for the death of such a far-off general and already so focused on other things.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

181431
The Situation in Gaul

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Thoughts?, Critiques?

[Berserker]

Thoughts?, Critiques?

Really like the arrival of the Teutones;)
wondering where the Cimbri went.

no critiques:D
silently wondering how the Teutones would manage

and how much of a prifit Carthage will have from it

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Chaos in Egypt
The continuing deteriorating relationship between Gaius and Ptolemaic court resulted in members of court conspiring to have Gaius killed for his “rudeness”. While dining one night the Ptolemies paid for one of Gaius’s cooks to poison his wine. The ploy worked and Gaius Scipio would die within two hours of drinking the poison. The Egyptians satisfied with their work now returned to their daily routines and completely ignored the Roman Army’s commanders.

However it wasn’t over for the Egyptians, Scipio’s second in command Lucius Pullo suspected foul play and tortured the cooks until they admitted that they had been paid by the Ptolemies to kill Gaius Scipio. Lucius, Scipio’s most loyal commander, was enraged by this and informed the other commanders of the army of the Egyptians foul play. They all agreed to make the Ptolemies pay for their deceit. Lucius took command of the army and laid siege the city of Alexandria and sent out riders to rouse the native Egyptian populace help the Romans and overthrow their Greek overlords. Most of the natives happily replied and joined.

When the Roman Senate heard of the Egyptians wrongdoing and Scipio’s army’s response it instantly dispatched a fleet to blockade Alexandria’s port to prevent food shipments into the city. Meanwhile the Lucius’s army was becoming bloated with volunteers from native Egyptians, the Ptolemaic reign over Egypt was nearing in its death throes.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Really like the arrival of the Teutones;)
wondering where the Cimbri went.

no critiques:D
silently wondering how the Teutones would manage

and how much of a prifit Carthage will have from it
thank you. The Teutonnes definately have given the Carthaginians an advantage.

[Berserker]

thank you. The Teutonnes definately have given the Carthaginians an advantage.

looking forward for more;)

[willbell]

Could we see an independent Egyptian Dynasty? :D
Or will Rome be quick to take over from the Ptolemies? That is good too.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The Fall of the Ptolemies
In the city of Alexandria, content for the Ptolemies was brewing. Infuriated over the situation their King and his court had gotten the city in to, the resentment grew so great that the King couldn’t leave the palace out of fear of lynching by his subjects.

Meanwhile on the outskirts of the city, Lucius Pullo simply waited and laughed as he heard tales of the city’s growing resentment towards its own government. He knew he would only have to wait a little while longer for the city to fall. However to end the war in Egypt quickly and carry on with the larger war, he prepared to make plans for one grand assault on the great city.

The attack came in the middle of the night, nice and cool, and when the Alexandrian soldiers would be mostly asleep, Pullo was betting on the Ptolemies lack of military prowess. What resulted would become one of the most chaotic events in military history. As Romans overwhelmed the garrison, Alexandrian citizens fed up stormed the Ptolemaic palace and killed most of the Ptolemaic family. They also killed citizens who hadn’t joined the frenzied mob. One historian would note that only around 50 Alexandrians died that night at the hands of Romans, obviously false but it is assumed Alexandrian killed more of themselves then the Romans did.

The next morning what remained of the House of Ptolemy was brought before Lucius Pullo and after some insults Pullo informed the family that they were to be banished from ever setting foot on Egpyt, Rome, or any of Rome’s allies.
What remained of the Ptolemies most splintered off and went their own ways. Some fled to Carthage, others to Carthage’s colonies, some committed suicide, and some are rumored to have sailed all the way to India.

Following the expulsion of the Ptolemies, Lucius Pullo got busy. First he prepared proper funeral of Gaius Scipio and had his ashes scattered in the direction of Rome. Then he made a deal with his Egyptian allies. The deal was that in exchange for recognizing a native Egyptian Dynasty, the city of Alexandria would be made its own city-state and made a protectorate of Rome (with Pullo in charge of course). The Egyptians, happy to be rid of Alexandria and all remnants of the Ptolemies, happily agreed to the deal. Egyptian general, Aahotepre, was named Pharaoh and the beginning of the 27th Dynasty. While actually the 34th it was called the 27th to establish ties with the 26th Dynasty, that last time a native dynasty ruled over Egypt independently.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

181535
Green: Carthage
Light Green: Carthaginian Influenced
Yellow Numidia
Brown: The Kingdom of Egypt
Red: The Protectorate of Alexandria

[Berserker]

and chaos is just marvelous:D

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Once the Great War wraps up, would you guys like to see a sequel?

[willbell]

I would suggest keeping it as one timeline. But please continue.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Back in Gaul
Meanwhile back in Gaul, Appius and Antonius were moving at full speed to meet up the Teutones. Appius finally managed to make reach up with the Teutones and camped his army in front of the Teutones. His plan was to buy time for Antonius to maneuver around the Teutones. To do this he simply ignored the Teutones when the lined up for battle. This was confusing to both the Germans and Appius’s soldiers, who felt this was incredibly unmanly. Finally after about a week of just sitting around, Appius received news that Antonius was in position for attack.

The next day Appius lined up his men, with him in the center of the army, and ordered the Roman Army to charge. The Teutones, surprised by the sudden attack, were caught off guard by the Romans but nevertheless prepared for a fight. Both the Teutones and Romans fought with fiercely against each other. For a while it appeared the Teutones would throw off the Romans but Antonius and his men arrived just in time with his soldiers and slammed into the rear of the Teutones. The battle continued throughout the night in a frenzy and by the time the sun arose over 100,000 Roman and Germans lied dead on the field, making the Battle of River Siene one of the bloodiest battles of Antiquity. Among the dead would be wives of warriors who had refused to retreat or taken part in the battle.

Over the next few days what remained of Teutones were hoarded off to slavery by the Romans or were escaped back into Germania. The Romans had little time to rest though, while Appius and Antonius had been pre-occupied by the Teutones, Hasdrubal and his army had crossed the Alps and were in Italy. When Appius received news of this, he instantly struck camp and began marching back to save Rome.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

To all those who read this.

I plan on continuing this timeline well beyond the Great War. I already have a load of ideas for where to take this TL but feel free to offer suggestions.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

100,000 dead!?

That sounds like an order of magnitude too high.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

100,000 dead!?

That sounds like an order of magnitude too high.
This includes noncombtants as well. Remeber nomadic German tribes weren't just men and legions weren't just soldiers. Plus this was a total of three massive armies

[The Spitfire017]

I am really enjoying this timeline. Keep it up.

To be honest, I could nitpick a lot of things, but it is mainly a problem of minor details.

[willbell]

Why did the entire Teuton army meet the Romans at once? Wouldn't the nomadic tribes be more likely to be fragments of different bands of a few hundred/thousand?

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Why did the entire Teuton army meet the Romans at once? Wouldn't the nomadic tribes be more likely to be fragments of different bands of a few hundred/thousand?
I'm basing this Teutone army off the one from OTL where they were this massive tribe that was moving together.

[willbell]

I'm basing this Teutone army off the one from OTL where they were this massive tribe that was moving together.
I wasn't aware of that, neat. You certainly did your research. Being able to answer critical questions puts you as especially admirable in my eyes compared to less researched timelines.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

I wasn't aware of that, neat. You certainly did your research. Being able to answer critical questions puts you as especially admirable in my eyes compared to less researched timelines.
Thank you.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

I am really enjoying this timeline. Keep it up.

To be honest, I could nitpick a lot of things, but it is mainly a problem of minor details.
Sorry for the problems but happy you're enjoying it.

[Berserker]

Very much like the update:D

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Sorry for the recent absence, been busy lately, but I promise I will have updates on Monday

Update: I'm going to be out of town and without any form of interet acess until thursday.

[willbell]

Sorry for the recent absence, been busy lately, but I promise I will have updates on Monday

Update: I'm going to be out of town and without any form of interet acess until thursday.
So when is the next update? :)

[forget]

I take back my pervious thought less trolling if that speeds up the update.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Really sorry for the absence and the small update but there will more tomorrow.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Return of Carthage
Hasdrubal marched into Italy in the same vein of his distant relative, Hannibal, he rode upon an elephant and styled himself in armor that mosaics and statues depicted Hannibal wearing. Hasdrubal’s plan was simple, he intended to march to Rome and upon seeing their city threatened he assumed the Romans would surely surrender. Hasdrubal seemed to forget Hannibal had to fight three bloody battles before he himself could march on Rome. Italia was guarded by along about 3 Legions and all were spread out along the peninsula. However Appius was marching with his usual increased speed and was expected to arrive within weeks.

Hasdrubal didn’t make himself loved by the populace like Hannibal had intended. He torched the countryside and ordered whole villages and cities that didn’t heed to his demands to be sacked and their populace sold into slavery. Unlike his opponent Appius, he moved at his own speed and was confident he could reach Rome before Appius entered Italy. This was against the urgings of his more experienced sub-commanders.

This rather lazy style to his campaign would come to haunt Hasdrubal when his scouts informed him the advance units of Appius’s army where in northern Italy. Hasdrubal now had a choice, go for Rome and have a hostile army in his rear or go big and continue on the way to Rome. Hasdrubal chose to take out Appius and he began moving his army northward. The stage was set.

[willbell]

Fingers crossed that Carthage pulls through.

[Berserker]

Fingers crossed that Carthage pulls through.

indeed:eek::eek:

[willbell]

Is this dead?

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Is this dead?
Sorry, Just been bust lately with Football and School Starting. I'm going to post the next updates hopefully this weekend

[willbell]

Sorry, Just been bust lately with Football and School Starting. I'm going to post the next updates hopefully this weekend
Good. :)
I can't wait.

[Berserker]

Good. :)
I can't wait.

seconded:D

[Awilla the Hun]

Good. :)
I can't wait.

Just read this TL. Thirded.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

The Battle
Appius lined up his troops with his least most experienced troops in the center and his most battle hardened troops in reserve. He placed his all his cavalry on his left flank. Hasdrubal did a similar setup only with his cavalry on both flanks. Appius took the first move and attacked with his least experienced troops heading straight for the center. The fighting was fierce with both Hasdrubal and Appius both in the heat of the fight. Hasdrubal then ordered for legions to be deployed and almost broke through the line but at the last moment Appius deployed his veteran troops and cavalry on Hasdrubal’s flanks. The Carthaginians would route in chaos and Hasdrubal would die in the retreat from his own troops

[Berserker]

oww crap...thats a blow

pore pore Hasdrubal

[willbell]

WHY!!!!
I like Carthage . . .

[forget]

oww crap...thats a blow

pore pore Hasdrubal

WHY!!!!
I like Carthage . . .

There, there never mind i am sure both side will soon be to exhausted to wipe each other out.

[willbell]

The thing is that Carthage won't be able to do more than conquer Rome, that way the Roman Republic as is would be balkanized most likely and overthrown by natives in Gaul, Germania, Macedonia, and most of the Balkans. Rome just has to cripple Carthage for it to lose. This kind of means it is a lot easier for Rome to gain than Carthage because Rome is hard to get at.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

I'm really sorry for the recent absense as I have been busy with school. But this Timline will be back on track very soon

[willbell]

I'm really sorry for the recent absense as I have been busy with school. But this Timline will be back on track very soon

IT LIVES!!!!!

(I'll have to go back and reacquaint myself with what happened so far)

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

IT LIVES!!!!!

(I'll have to go back and reacquaint myself with what happened so far)
yeah it has been, regretably, a while.

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Tradjedy Hits Carthage
When Hannibal II learned of his son's death and defeat at the hands of the Romans he went into a rage. "The heads of every Roman who has ever walked this world will never sastify my grief" he was purported to have said. Hannibal had loved his son greatly and the greif would become to much for him to bare. He took his own life a week after hearing the news and left no clear heir to assume his role as Suffette, many members in the Popular Assembly used this to their advantage. Two days after Hannibial's suicide the Popular Assembly declared the popular upstart Milkyaton to be the new Suffette. This would be the first time since Hannibal the Great that a non Barcid was made Suffette. He was twently years younger than Hannibal II had been and had never seen combat but he was an impressive orator and rouser of men. Whether Milkyaton had what it took to lead a nation, at nation at war, remained to be seen.

[willbell]

Please can he be competent? I want to see Carthage pull through here!

[Gaius Julius Magnus]

Civil Unrest
Milkyaton's upstart appointment as the new Suffette of Carthage was a dangerous move by the Popular Assembly. Both the Barcid Family and Sacred Guard felt wronged by their exclusion from the appointment of this new upstart. Hannibal II's brother, Hamilcar, rallied against this injustice and stormed the Popular Assembly Hall with the Sacred Guard arresting Milkyaton and the majority of the assembly. For the anti-Barcid faction this was a gold mind of propaganda. The Suffette may have been supreme commander of the Carthage but the common folk always saw the Assemblymen as sacrosanct. This mass arresting of the Assemblymen was used as condemned by a good many of the Carthaginian population. Milkyaton, supposedly, had written letters and them snuck out of his prison to be read to the populace which rallied them against the Barcid family. Riots would break out in the streets between pro and anti Barcid factions.

The Sacred Guard would be what kept the Barcid palace from being overrun by rioters. The situation would become so bad that troops sent off to fight the Romans on the front lines would be kept back to end the violence. Seeing he had made a mistake and under pressure from his allies in the Assembly, Hamilcar allowed for the release of certain members of the Senate, including Milkyaton. Milkyaton was then made co-Suffette with Hamilcar to further satisfy his allies and foes in government.