ALT: Firearms, ammunition, spare weapon parts

[Hendryk]

I figure that a separate thread might be necessary to list this specific category of items. Until we have the right tech level (and that won't be for a long time), guns of a more complex design than single-shot blackpowder types, their ammunition and their spare parts have to be considered non-renewable resources.

As I said in the general ALT chat thread, I haven't brought a gun myself, lacking any experience whatsoever with one (I don't even play shoot-em-up video games :rolleyes: ). Wendy, OTOH, has brought a Type 53, which is a Chinese knock-off of the Mosin-Nagant M1944 bolt-action rifle. She has 100 rounds (7.62 x 54 mm), a complete set of spare parts, and a cleaning kit.

[Dave Howery]

well, I brought a Sharps, which is a black powder cartridge rifle, and 500 rounds, and 500 rounds worth of reloads, which means I'll get 1000 shots from it. The Sharps shoots a bigass 45-70 round, designed to knock buffalo down... hopefully, grizzlies will notice it...
and I also brought along a muzzleloading rifle with a caplock, and a big pile of caps (they're small). But I brought a replacement lock for it that is a flintlock... thus, so long as we can make black powder, I'll always have something to shoot...

[Flocculencio]

Following advice from Dave and MBarry, I brought two '59 Sharps cavalry carbines and two Colt Army revolvers.

Also a pair of cavalry sabres :D

[Matt]

Most of my communial property are firearms and ammo, as well as those of my two friends and my sister's fiance who are joined the board but are NPCs:)

Altogether in this lot there are

50- .22 caliber Rifles
120- .30-06 Lee-Enfields- Primary Ranger weapons
100- Sharpe's Rifles
20- Colt M1911

There are several thousand rounds of all these types in just my(and my NPCs) possesion, but since we've also standardized the .30-06 and .22 rounds people should have several hunderd rounds of each. Keep in mind this is spread across 4 parties.

A Powder mill is must sometime in the 2nd year though.

[Ward]

well for my large group of people we brought a few weapons
8 x54 cal Hakens rifle Black powder flint locks with 100 lbs of black powder and 50 lb of pre cast rounds .
12 x 22 singel shot 22 with 8,500 rounds for them
12 x Blackhawk .357 revolvers . with 1450 rounds .these are the stainless steel pistols .
4x 1903 springfields star seriese sniper rifles with 1500 rounds of match grade rounds .
6x Sabers repuducions of 1600's type .

[Hendryk]

Has anyone brought a Marlin M1895? I hear it's a really powerful rifle, and it's supposed to be usable with blackpowder cartridges.
Anyway, here's what the Type 53 looks like. Ward may have seen the business end of a few of those, as many found their way into Vietnam.

[Dave Howery]

the problem with any cartridge rifle, even a black powder one, is that sooner or later, you'll run out of primers for reloading the cartridges. Sure, they are small and you can take a lot, but they'll run out sometime... and it's going to be a loooong time before anyone can make more of them. So, I recommend that anyone who plans on using a rifle regularly should take along a muzzleloading flintlock. Chances are pretty good that we can make FFg and FFFg black powder...

[Ward]

Thats why I have the Flint locks its easier to find flint then make new caps for a bll and cap weapon .

By the way Norberts 1900 sears catalog had replacement locks , rifles barrows and triger groups . and the rest of the parts .

[SionEwig]

the problem with any cartridge rifle, even a black powder one, is that sooner or later, you'll run out of primers for reloading the cartridges. Sure, they are small and you can take a lot, but they'll run out sometime... and it's going to be a loooong time before anyone can make more of them. So, I recommend that anyone who plans on using a rifle regularly should take along a muzzleloading flintlock. Chances are pretty good that we can make FFg and FFFg black powder...

I think that we could be producing some primers/caps within 5 years. Mercury fulmanate is not too hard to make. Make sure and save the used caps from anyone who brought percussion weapons, I did bring a cap making tool.

[pisces74]

My replica 1860 black powder musket an 100 lbs of powder/ and about 5000 caps, and ammo,with bayonett

[SionEwig]

One thing to consider is that we will probably use all of our lead slugs for our flintlock and percussion weapons well before we run out of powder and caps. We should try to recover any slugs used for recasting.

Using the 54 cal Hawkins as an example

It uses 75 grains of blackpowder pre charge - that comes to 933 charges per 10 lbs of powder. (You should actually use Pyrodex Select instead, cut the weight of powder by 20% for the same number of charges, so for the same number of charges it would only be 8 lbs).

The Hawkins uses either a .535 round ball (which average at 230 grains each) or a bullet of some sort. I went with 2 types of bullets by Hornady both weigh 425 grains each.

So with approximately 15 lbs of lead slugs alloted for each Hawkins my family brought, we have 135 round balls and 180 bullets, and 933 charges of Pyrodex.

Bringing the precut high grade english flints will give you around 250 shots for each flint and flints will be about 50 to the pound. (There are sources of chert in the general area.)

[SionEwig]

Most of my communial property are firearms and ammo, as well as those of my two friends and my sister's fiance who are joined the board but are NPCs:)

Altogether in this lot there are

50- .22 caliber Lee-Enfield Rifles, for use as light brush rifles and for training
75- .30-06 M1917 Lee-Enfields- Primary Ranger weapons
125- Springfield model 1861 Rifle, cal .58- black powder weapons
50- Sharpe's Rifles
150- Colt Army Revolvers

There are several thousand rounds of all these types in just my(and my NPCs) possesion, but since we've also standardized the .30-06 and .22 rounds people should have several hunderd rounds of each. Keep in mind this is spread across 4 parties.

A Powder mill is must sometime in the 2nd year though.11

Matt,

I think there is still some misidentification here. The US Model 1917 is NOT simply a 30-06 version of the classic Lee-Enfiel (aka SMLE). The M1917 has a 5 rd internal magazine just like the 1903 Springfield (and most military mausers). The M1917 was a rechambering of the Pattern 14 rifle (in 303)that was made in the US for the Brits during WWI. When the US finally got into the war they simply changed the caliber to 30-06 and kept the production lines going. I would put a picture of a M1917 in if I knew how.

What I think you want for us to have is a SMLE rechambered for 30-06, then it would have the 10 rd detachable (more or less) magazine. I know this is being picky, sorry.

And why did you decide to go with the 1861 58 cal instead of the Hawkins 54 cal? Just curiosity there.

[Matt]

Oh, I didn't know that Sion. Thanks though, I understand the nitpickery so don't worry...


As for the Springfields instead of the Hawkins? No good reason really :p
Besides if we trade some away, it would handicap the user if they turn em on us.

[Ward]

Oh, I didn't know that Sion. Thanks though, I understand the nitpickery so don't worry...


As for the Springfields instead of the Hawkins? No good reason really :p
Besides if we trade some away, it would handicap the user if they turn em on us.



I'm sorry but I would rather not trade any firearms at all to the natives .
For rember with there bows they will have higher rates of fire then we will once we are down to black power weapons .

[Forum Lurker]

I think that we could be producing some primers/caps within 5 years. Mercury fulmanate is not too hard to make. Make sure and save the used caps from anyone who brought percussion weapons, I did bring a cap making tool.
It requires having various fuming acids, which are difficult to make, and it's highly volatile; on the bright side, there is apparently a major cinnabar deposit at New Almaden, in the Capitancillo Hill region near San Jose.

[SionEwig]

It requires having various fuming acids, which are difficult to make, and it's highly volatile; on the bright side, there is apparently a major cinnabar deposit at New Almaden, in the Capitancillo Hill region near San Jose.

Yep, know where that deposit is, and another nearby.

All we will need is sulfuric acid to make the nitric acid and then we can have the fulminate of mercury (and we can make the sulfuric acid). I think that 5 years is not unreasonable though it could be longer. Now how good a quality of the stuff is another question:D .

[The_Leader]

Well actually u can make nitic acid from saltpeter or so says wik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid

under Synthesis

[Norbert]

2 Enfield M1917 .30-06, 1,000 rounds
2 1860 Colt Army Black Powder revolver, 2 spare cylinders each, 2,000 Ball and 2,000 Pyrodex pellets (.44)
1 Hawkens .54 Flint Lock, 1000 minie-ball, 1,000 pyrodex pellets
200 Agate Flints
8,000 Percussion Caps
2 Modern 120 lb Crossbows, 48 Bolts
2 Modern Steel Shortswords
2 Boar Spears

'Recipes' for Different types of Powder, plus Mercury Fulminate, Nitroglycerine, etc (ie, the A******** Cookbook)

[Forum Lurker]

Well actually u can make nitic acid from saltpeter or so says wik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid

under Synthesis
Yes, if you have fuming nitric acid, which requires fuming sulfuric acid, which requires bulk sulfur, a whole lot of heat, and a vanadium pentoxide catalyst. Now, where do we find vanadium ore? New Mexico's the closest, but it'll be a good long while before we can take a bulk mining trip out there.

[Grimm Reaper]

May I presume that our more modern firearms immediately went into the military reserve, while we use old style firearms and especially bows to do our hunting?

[Dave Howery]

One note: Pyrodex works very well in caplocks, but poorly in flintlocks... I have both powders and both caplock and flintlock guns, and I've tried both out... if you have a flintlock, bring regular FFg powder for the main charges and FFFg powder for the pan...

[Forum Lurker]

May I presume that our more modern firearms immediately went into the military reserve, while we use old style firearms and especially bows to do our hunting?
I hope so; I brought crossbows and a lathe to replace the bolt shafts, specifically so we wouldn't have to use consumables to get food.

[Norbert]

One note: Pyrodex works very well in caplocks, but poorly in flintlocks... I have both powders and both caplock and flintlock guns, and I've tried both out... if you have a flintlock, bring regular FFg powder for the main charges and FFFg powder for the pan...

Interesting point, I was not aware of that. I suppose then if I had a cap lock action with a flint lock to be used later, and then use the caps I brought for the rifle would work all right?

[Doctor What]

A Powder mill is must sometime in the 2nd year though.

Stupid question from this noob who's never used a gun before: what exactly are the minerals/ingredients needed for a powder mill?

[Norbert]

Stupid question from this noob who's never used a gun before: what exactly are the minerals/ingredients needed for a powder mill?

Ingredients basically sulfur, charcoal, and Salt-peter. Something that will not spark for grinding would be helpful. I hace some diagrams of mixing areas that were used for the mass production in the early black powder days. Best to mix it damp, which reduces the risk of pre-mature ignition, and then let it dry.
As I stated before, I have proportional recipes for various grades/strengths. One thing I heard of some years ago from a black powder buff, was using Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer in place of Salt-Peter, gave a little more powerful powder.

[Forum Lurker]

Unfortunately, ammonium nitrate requires synthesis in a lab, while potassium nitrate (that is, saltpetre) can be obtained from guano or manure.

[Doctor What]

Ingredients basically sulfur, charcoal, and Salt-peter. Something that will not spark for grinding would be helpful. I hace some diagrams of mixing areas that were used for the mass production in the early black powder days. Best to mix it damp, which reduces the risk of pre-mature ignition, and then let it dry.
As I stated before, I have proportional recipes for various grades/strengths. One thing I heard of some years ago from a black powder buff, was using Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer in place of Salt-Peter, gave a little more powerful powder.

There's a bunch of mineral springs and geysers in Yosemite Valley, about 60-80 miles outside of San Francisco, right? Big tourist attraction, IIRC. A lot of the natives in the area were familiar with them. Sulfur for sure can be found there and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bunch of other minerals and salts that can be mined there.

[sbegin]

Any weight estimates on these various firearms, are they 2lbs, 10 lbs, etc, would help in planning out total weight brought over. How much powder is enough powder, or should you bring all your extra available weight as powder? Is it better to bring extra powder, or extra lead? Sorry, never used these black powder thingies before :D

[Norbert]

Any weight estimates on these various firearms, are they 2lbs, 10 lbs, etc, would help in planning out total weight brought over. How much powder is enough powder, or should you bring all your extra available weight as powder? Is it better to bring extra powder, or extra lead? Sorry, never used these black powder thingies before :D

Hawkens .54 calibre: 9 lb
Colt 1860 Army Revolver: 3 lb
Sharps 'Big 50' (.50-90): 9 lb
Sharps Carbine, .52: 6.5 lb
Sharps Rifle .52: 9 lb

Someone posted earlier on weights of powder and lead, I believe. Preserved Food is always useful, As will be hand tools. Look at some of the entries on the 'What We Are Bringing With Us' thread for other ideas. Ward gives weights on things, and should be on the first page of the thread. Larger items, such as cook stoves, and so on could be useful to you too. Look at the 'So Major Items that came with us' thread for ideas of heavier things. Some of us found that we could not afford the weight to bring everything we wanted with us, for example, I conentrated on tools for wood cutting, and wood-working, as well as a cook stove, and really did not have room to bring some of the equipment that would have been useful for irrigation and planting. If you were to choose to bring seed to plant crops, figur apx 4 bushel of seed to plant an acre. Wheat: 50 lb/bushel; Oats: 25 lb/bushel; Barley: 40 lb/bushel; Rye: 45 lb/bushel; Beans: 40 lb/bushel; Peas: 40 lb/bushel.

[Ward]

Any weight estimates on these various firearms, are they 2lbs, 10 lbs, etc, would help in planning out total weight brought over. How much powder is enough powder, or should you bring all your extra available weight as powder? Is it better to bring extra powder, or extra lead? Sorry, never used these black powder thingies before :D


rember side arms are a tool its best for killing snakes . rember we have been lucky so far that none of the gunpowder has gone up in the firefight .

also do you know how to fire a weapon if not take a 2x 22 pistol and 2x22 rifle the rounds are light . Then take a about 100 lbs of that ammo .
These rifles are easy to learn how to fire on .
Mbarry has brought a blackpowder weapon you could use .

If you dont know how to use a weapon go with the .22 for the rounds are light and you cab carry enough to learn on that weapon .
Also take a singal action pistol if you naver shot one before it will be safier for you .

Rember fire arm saftey is the no 1 most importian thing to think off

[Matt]

Rember fire arm saftey is the no 1 most importian thing to think off


We need to insitute a rule about that. When in town, all firearms are to be unloaded and slung/holstered. Only on-duty milita well be permitted to do otherwise.

[Gerard-ABC]

Ok, Sophie and I always carry a .45 pistol. We got 800 rounds for it. She got 2 of those 30-06 rifles, and another 800 rounds. She's better with it than I am. I've only fired a black-power rifle a handful of times, but I did hit the target. Of course, I was given the rifle all loaded, told what to aim at, and just needed to hold it and press the trigger.

I agree on the need that only the Rangers can walk around with guns in their hands. Everyone else got to have them either slung over shoulders or in holsters. Not as sure about them being loaded or not. I'll leave the decision on that to the experts.


Regards,
Gerard

[Bulgaroktonos]

We need to insitute a rule about that. When in town, all firearms are to be unloaded and slung/holstered. Only on-duty milita well be permitted to do otherwise.

I don't know if militia should be allowed to carry it in town either. I think we should have a police force for that.

I don't not trust the militia, but if people get too comfortable and accustomed to having our military be our police, then they won't see the need to change down the road, and that could be a whole heap of political problems far too numerous to name.

[Matt]

I don't know if militia should be allowed to carry it in town either. I think we should have a police force for that.

I don't not trust the militia, but if people get too comfortable and accustomed to having our military be our police, then they won't see the need to change down the road, and that could be a whole heap of political problems far too numerous to name.

Sorry I was too clear. I meant the Militia who are performing the mundane but needed duty of the daily camp guard.

Re: my latest comments about the Rangers and police powers in the other thread. I only think the militia should be a guard/emergency force now. The Rangers not on patrol on the frontier would fill the law enforcement role.

[Forum Lurker]

Military and law enforcement for frontier communities really only differ in the number of people operating together. If we're fighting true pitched battles, the whole town will be called out, and otherwise the same skills (ability to locate individuals who don't want to be located, combat ability, good judgement under pressure) are required for both.

[Matt]

Military and law enforcement for frontier communities really only differ in the number of people operating together. If we're fighting true pitched battles, the whole town will be called out, and otherwise the same skills (ability to locate individuals who don't want to be located, combat ability, good judgement under pressure) are required for both.



That's why I see the reasoning to let the Rangers handle both. The militia would just be there to augment them in sentry duties in camp/town.

[Forum Lurker]

I agree; just throwing in my two cents on the matter.

[SionEwig]

There's a bunch of mineral springs and geysers in Yosemite Valley, about 60-80 miles outside of San Francisco, right? Big tourist attraction, IIRC. A lot of the natives in the area were familiar with them. Sulfur for sure can be found there and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bunch of other minerals and salts that can be mined there.

I think you are thinking of Yellowstone in Wyoming. And hell no you are not mining Yosemite Valley (and this is from a mining engineer).

Don't worry about sulfur, there is an extensive deposit not too much further south of Yosemite NP just north of Death Valley NP or there are other ways to make it that will take more effort.

[Doctor What]

I think you are thinking of Yellowstone in Wyoming. And hell no you are not mining Yosemite Valley (and this is from a mining engineer).

Don't worry about sulfur, there is an extensive deposit not too much further south of Yosemite NP just north of Death Valley NP or there are other ways to make it that will take more effort.

Just because I'm feeling a bit annoying(:p ), there are hot springs in Lassen Volcanic National Park (200 miles away from SF--damn brain cells--could have sworn I read that there was something just 60 miles away)--they call the area Bumpass Hell. (http://www.americansouthwest.net/california/lassen_volcanic/bumpass_hell.html)

But you're the engineer here--I'll defer all that stuff to you.

How difficult is it to collect that stuff anyway?

[SionEwig]

Just because I'm feeling a bit annoying(:p ), there are hot springs in Lassen Volcanic National Park (200 miles away from SF--damn brain cells--could have sworn I read that there was something just 60 miles away)--they call the area Bumpass Hell. (http://www.americansouthwest.net/california/lassen_volcanic/bumpass_hell.html)

But you're the engineer here--I'll defer all that stuff to you.

How difficult is it to collect that stuff anyway?

Lassen you can mine if you want, it is pretty, but it's not Yosemite Valley:) . The Death Valley sulfur location is not too hard to work. Bear in mind that when I was there, it had already been mined so there was much exposed. However I estimate that we should be able to surface collect (drilling steels and shovel work) several wagon loads (tons). To get down to the really pure stuff in large amounts it would be best to use explosives, which we will need the sulfur to make. The salt petre is local in caves just to the west of where we plan on settleing and charcoal we will have to make (not that big a deal, just some time to experiment).

[Dave Howery]

Interesting point, I was not aware of that. I suppose then if I had a cap lock action with a flint lock to be used later, and then use the caps I brought for the rifle would work all right?
that's what I'm doing.. luckily, caps are tiny little things and you can carry a few thousand without any real weight problem. But they are going to run out sooner or later, so having a replacement flintlock lock is a must. Plus, keep in mind, even if you don't run out of caps right away, you might end up breaking something on the caplock. So, I would skip Pyrodex completely and stick with the two sizes of normal black powder...

[Norbert]

that's what I'm doing.. luckily, caps are tiny little things and you can carry a few thousand without any real weight problem. But they are going to run out sooner or later, so having a replacement flintlock lock is a must. Plus, keep in mind, even if you don't run out of caps right away, you might end up breaking something on the caplock. So, I would skip Pyrodex completely and stick with the two sizes of normal black powder...

Ok, shoot me some info for how much powder for 1000 rifle shots (apx; .54 cal) and 2000 pistol shots (again apx; .44 cal). I've never had to figure how many shot I can get from a given weight of powder, though I have used cap locks before, I just will need a refresher course on proper loading, its been quite a while since I've used them.

[perdedor99]

Being stuck as 1st Sargent:p I guess I bring to this little trip two 1911 .45 caliber pistols with 500 rounds each. Two Thompson submachine guns with 1000 rounds each. They are also in a .45 caliber and of course they will rest in the Rangers' armory for emergency use only. :rolleyes:

[Matt]

Being stuck as 1st Sargent:p I guess I bring to this little trip two 1911 .45 caliber pistols with 500 rounds each. Two Thompson submachine guns with 1000 rounds each. They are also in a .45 caliber and of course they will rest in the Rangers' armory for emergency use only. :rolleyes:


Didn't realize you were playing p99, but I figured you as a natch as top :)

[perdedor99]

Didn't realize you were playing p99, but I figured you as a natch as top :)
I wasn't but my civilian job being an accountant I guess I serve better as your Top. Ready for duty! Sir!

[SionEwig]

Ok, shoot me some info for how much powder for 1000 rifle shots (apx; .54 cal) and 2000 pistol shots (again apx; .44 cal). I've never had to figure how many shot I can get from a given weight of powder, though I have used cap locks before, I just will need a refresher course on proper loading, its been quite a while since I've used them.

Using the Hawkins that Ward recomended for people - it uses 75 grain per charge - so you get 933 charges of powder for 10 pounds of powder.

The 44 will depend on which pistol you take, they use different amounts.

I measured right around 5000 percussion caps or primers in 1 pound. Largest amount of their weight was in the packaging, so you reduce that and get the 5000/lb.

Let me know what 44 revolver you were thinking and I can get the exact charge info for you.

[Norbert]

Using the Hawkins that Ward recomended for people - it uses 75 grain per charge - so you get 933 charges of powder for 10 pounds of powder.

The 44 will depend on which pistol you take, they use different amounts.

I measured right around 5000 percussion caps or primers in 1 pound. Largest amount of their weight was in the packaging, so you reduce that and get the 5000/lb.

Let me know what 44 revolver you were thinking and I can get the exact charge info for you.

Colt Model 1860 Army .44 cal Revolver

[SionEwig]

Colt Model 1860 Army .44 cal Revolver

22 grains per charge which will give us 318 charges per 1 pound of powder

Amazing that it worked out to an even number of full loads.

BTW, good choice there, I ended up going with the LeMats, having that 20 GA barrel for backup seemed like a good idea to me.

[Ghost 88]

22 grains per charge which will give us 318 charges per 1 pound of powder

Amazing that it worked out to an even number of full loads.

BTW, good choice there, I ended up going with the LeMats, having that 20 GA barrel for backup seemed like a good idea to me.
Backup my (bleep) you just want to pretend your James Ewell Brown Stuart

[SionEwig]

Backup my (bleep) you just want to pretend your James Ewell Brown Stuart

LOL, Hell no. I've always liked them since I was knee high to the proverbal grasshopper. There is an original one in my family that my great grandfather carried while he was with Forrest (not passed down to my branch though:( ).

[Ghost 88]

LOL, Hell no. I've always liked them since I was knee high to the proverbal grasshopper. There is an original one in my family that my great grandfather carried while he was with Forrest (not passed down to my branch though:( ).
Wonder if he was with Forrest when he burnt my home town? Hopkinsville Ky iirc it was at the time of Hoods Nashville Campaign. Htown being about 70 miles nne

[Norbert]

Wonder if he was with Forrest when he burnt my home town? Hopkinsville Ky iirc it was at the time of Hoods Nashville Campaign. Htown being about 70 miles nne

Please don't start a family fued over the past!!!!:D

Of course, I had an ancestor who joined the 6th Michigan 1 month before Appomatix, and ended up being sent out west for the rest of his year hitch (he was 44 at the time).

Wards family was with Sherman going to the Sea

[Ghost 88]

Please don't start a family fued over the past!!!!:D

Of course, I had an ancestor who joined the 6th Michigan 1 month before Appomatix, and ended up being sent out west for the rest of his year hitch (he was 44 at the time).

Wards family was with Sherman going to the Sea
Hell man we just saw it as urban renewal

[Hendryk]

I suppose that, along with the rest of his property, Romulus's weapons were seized by the Council pending a court decision. We know he owns a 9 mm semi-automatic pistol (which will be presented at the trial), but do we know what type exactly, and how much ammo he brought?
I would guess he owns another gun as well, perhaps a Russian assault rifle (he is a former Soviet citizen after all). If so, I'd like confirmation from those better acquainted than I am with firearms that the 7.62 round used in the Kalashnikov line of assault rifles is compatible with the Mosin-Nagant M1944. Because if that's the case, they can also be used in my significant other's Type 53 rifle.

[Ghost 88]

I suppose that, along with the rest of his property, Romulus's weapons were seized by the Council pending a court decision. We know he owns a 9 mm semi-automatic pistol (which will be presented at the trial), but do we know what type exactly, and how much ammo he brought?
I would guess he owns another gun as well, perhaps a Russian assault rifle (he is a former Soviet citizen after all). If so, I'd like confirmation from those better acquainted than I am with firearms that the 7.62 round used in the Kalashnikov line of assault rifles is compatible with the Mosin-Nagant M1944. Because if that's the case, they can also be used in my significant other's Type 53 rifle.
The AK-47 uses a 7.62X39 cartridge

[Matt]

I doubt it is Hendryk. The last number in 7.62 x 39 mm refers to the length of the cartiage. The AK-47 fires a shorten cartiage compared to a regular rifle round. The Mosin is probably 7.62 x 54 mm. Right diameter, wrong length.

[Ward]

Well I will offer up a .357 blackhawk and 120 rounds , for the AK and the ammo for it .

[Hendryk]

The last number in 7.62 x 39 mm refers to the length of the cartiage. The AK-47 fires a shorten cartiage compared to a regular rifle round. The Mosin is probably 7.62 x 54 mm. Right diameter, wrong length.
Yeah, it's the 7.62 x 54 mm round I was looking for. No big deal.
But I take it that we assume Rom did bring an AK-47 or similar weapon with him, apart from his pistol?

[Matt]

I would have expect him to bring something overly complex for what we're doing, like an FN2000.

[Norbert]

I suppose that, along with the rest of his property, Romulus's weapons were seized by the Council pending a court decision. We know he owns a 9 mm semi-automatic pistol (which will be presented at the trial), but do we know what type exactly, and how much ammo he brought?
I would guess he owns another gun as well, perhaps a Russian assault rifle (he is a former Soviet citizen after all). If so, I'd like confirmation from those better acquainted than I am with firearms that the 7.62 round used in the Kalashnikov line of assault rifles is compatible with the Mosin-Nagant M1944. Because if that's the case, they can also be used in my significant other's Type 53 rifle.

Without a bit more digging, my weapons lists show them both using the 7.62mmR, which measures 7.62mm x 39mm. That is from Janes Infantry Weapons.

[The_Leader]

work for a major pacel comp and over the past week or so came up this info may help

case of 200 186 gr s30.06 ammo weighs 17 lbs
250 12 3in 1oz slugs 23lbs
1000 45 150 grs 37lbs

[Grimm Reaper]

I brought no firearms, but I did bring 6 crossbows(120lb pull) and 4 'hand' crossbows for small game with kits of spare parts for each and 200 bolts per crossbow. Will that help?

[Highlander]

The firearms I brought along:

Enfield M1917 .30-06 with about 500 rounds
.357 Magnum Revolver with about 800 rounds
Sawn-Off 12 Guage Double Barreled shotgun with about 190 rounds
.22LR Bolt Action Rifle with about 3000 rounds

All of these have spare parts

I also have a US Military Survival Handbook, that shows how to make other weapons.

[SionEwig]

The firearms I brought along:

Enfield M1917 .30-06 with about 500 rounds
.357 Magnum Revolver with about 800 rounds
Sawn-Off 12 Guage Double Barreled shotgun with about 190 rounds
.22LR Bolt Action Rifle with about 3000 rounds

All of these have spare parts

I also have a US Military Survival Handbook, that shows how to make other weapons.

Just out of curiosity, why did you choose the Enfield M-1917? If it was because of earlier discussion by Matt and others, then you may wish to change your choice to the SMLE (the No.1 Mk.3 Lee Enfield) chambered in 30-06 (not 303 which is the norm for it) which is what Matt finally went with for the Rangers (at the moment unless he changes his mind again for some plastic POS). There was a misunderstanding that the M-1917 was simply a SMLE in 30-06, which it is not. It is a completely different rifle.

[Highlander]

I chose that out of suggestion by a member who contacted me before I joined.

I should know this, but what makes it better? Want to get each side before I change it.

[Norbert]

I was thinking of a little 'toy' for the resupply drop:

The 12 gauge Winchester M97, in trench gun or riot gun style, was a pump-action shotgun with an exposed hammer and a 5 round tubular magazine beneath the 18 inch barrel. One round could be in the chamber bringing capacity to six rounds total. It was chambered for the short 2 3/4-inch shells only.
The design did not have a trigger disconnector so the magazine could be emptied by holding back the trigger and firing as fast as the forearm could be pumped. Originally shipped in solid frame only, after number 833,000 it was made with a takedown receiver. The finish on the metal parts was light blue until 1945, after which it was black.

M1917 Bayonet
The blade and tang are forged in one piece and the guard and pommel are brazed in place forming one very strong unit. The pommel has a T-shaped slot to receive the bayonet lug from the firearm, which holds the bayonet on the rifle (or shotgun) along with the bayonet stud that fits into the crossguard hole. The spring loaded bayonet catch engages the bayonet lug on the rifle (or shotgun). The catch is released by pressing the thumb piece.
The blade is 16 1/2 inches in length with a cutting edge of almost 15 inches. The overall length of the M-1917 bayonet is 21 3/4 inches.
Left and right grips are mounted on the tang, between the pommel and guard, held by two screws. The grips are countersunk, to receive the nuts and the heads of the screws. Originally the grips were wood, but later production were black plastic.

(BTW, I was being fecious about refering to it as 'toy')

[Norbert]

Just out of curiosity, why did you choose the Enfield M-1917? If it was because of earlier discussion by Matt and others, then you may wish to change your choice to the SMLE (the No.1 Mk.3 Lee Enfield) chambered in 30-06 (not 303 which is the norm for it) which is what Matt finally went with for the Rangers (at the moment unless he changes his mind again for some plastic POS). There was a misunderstanding that the M-1917 was simply a SMLE in 30-06, which it is not. It is a completely different rifle.

I thought the .03-06 Enfield M1917 was the rifle settled upon, not the rechambered Lee-Enfield?

[SionEwig]

I chose that out of suggestion by a member who contacted me before I joined.

I should know this, but what makes it better? Want to get each side before I change it.

Biggest plus is that the SMLE (in 30-06) is what the Rangers are going with so there is full interchangeability with them.

Otherwise here are the different specs for the 2.

Short Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE) No.1 Mk.3
weight - 8.75 lbs
barrel length - 25.25 inches
10 round detachable box magazine
sights - adjustable long range rear and blade front with guards

US Model 1917 Enfield Military rifle
weight - 9.25 lbs
barrel length - 26 inch
5 round internal magazine
sights - adjustable rear sight and blade front with guards

[Norbert]

Biggest plus is that the SMLE (in 30-06) is what the Rangers are going with so there is full interchangeability with them.

Otherwise here are the different specs for the 2.

Short Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE) No.1 Mk.3
weight - 8.75 lbs
barrel length - 25.25 inches
10 round detachable box magazine
sights - adjustable long range rear and blade front with guards

US Model 1917 Enfield Military rifle
weight - 9.25 lbs
barrel length - 26 inch
5 round internal magazine
sights - adjustable rear sight and blade front with guards

Personally, I'd prefer not to use a detachable magazine, I've seen many jam there feeds, and the springs usually seemed weeker than the internals. Unless someone brings spare magazine springs, it could be a problem.

[SionEwig]

Personally, I'd prefer not to use a detachable magazine, I've seen many jam there feeds, and the springs usually seemed weeker than the internals. Unless someone brings spare magazine springs, it could be a problem.

Bear in mind, that even though the magazine on the SMLEs (and the other Lee Enfields) was officially detachable, in practice most of the time it was never detached except for cleaning. The rifles were generally reloaded just like the Springfields and most mauser military rifles, by 5 rd stripper clip or by individual rounds. The Lee Enfields that my wife and I own all have magazines that are anywhre from just under 90 years old to 60 years old and all are still operating just fine. In fact, the SMLE detachable box magazine uses the same type of spring (leaf spring) as do the internal magazines, not the wire spring like most detachable magazines.

[Norbert]

Bear in mind, that even though the magazine on the SMLEs (and the other Lee Enfields) was officially detachable, in practice most of the time it was never detached except for cleaning. The rifles were generally reloaded just like the Springfields and most mauser military rifles, by 5 rd stripper clip or by individual rounds. The Lee Enfields that my wife and I own all have magazines that are anywhre from just under 90 years old to 60 years old and all are still operating just fine. In fact, the SMLE detachable box magazine uses the same type of spring (leaf spring) as do the internal magazines, not the wire spring like most detachable magazines.


Ok. Whats the weight difference? I show the Lee-Enfield at 10 lbs, and the Enfield at 9.5 lbs. Is that about right?

[SionEwig]

Ok. Whats the weight difference? I show the Lee-Enfield at 10 lbs, and the Enfield at 9.5 lbs. Is that about right?

Do you want me to put them on the scale or look it up?

[Norbert]

Do you want me to put them on the scale or look it up?

Either is fine by me.:D

[Ward]

Myself I like 1903 Springfield . But thats because I learned to fire with this rifle .

[Highlander]

I'll just stick with what I have then, if that's alright.

Btw, that Trench Gun would be awsome. Who would have it?

[SionEwig]

Either is fine by me.:D

OK, the SMLEs averaged to 8.73 lbs each (unloaded and without sling or bayonet) and the Model 1917s averaged to 9,26 lbs each (same conditions). Difference in the wieghts due to wood densities in the stocks I guess.

[Hendryk]

On a practical level, is the ammunition being pooled? Bullets, cartridges, primers, etc., are nonrenewable resources for the foreseeable future. Shouldn't they be under the responsibility of Supply Management, even with the understanding that whatever ammo everyone brought with them does remain their property?

[Glen]

On a practical level, is the ammunition being pooled? Bullets, cartridges, primers, etc., are nonrenewable resources for the foreseeable future. Shouldn't they be under the responsibility of Supply Management, even with the understanding that whatever ammo everyone brought with them does remain their property?

I would suggest that while we ask people to ration out their ammunition, and to make it available should there be great need (a gun without ammo is a fancy club, after all), I think the additional logistic load to our community efforts would not warrant it. Taking care of your ammo is not as labor intensive as taking care of your livestock, and we don't need your ammo to make more ammo.

What we probably should be collecting, however, are empty cartidges for reloads, as I alluded to during the Great Hunt. We need those for future use. But people can also store them themselves until we have someone able to do reloads.

[Highlander]

I've been trying to do that all along. Will we be able to make gunpowder, when we settle down?

[jolo]

I've been trying to do that all along. Will we be able to make gunpowder, when we settle down?

We'll hafe to get some sulfur first - an expedition is already being planned, but it'll take a few months.

[Othniel]

On a practical level, is the ammunition being pooled? Bullets, cartridges, primers, etc., are nonrenewable resources for the foreseeable future. Shouldn't they be under the responsibility of Supply Management, even with the understanding that whatever ammo everyone brought with them does remain their property?
I think it was, so we could control the rate which we ran out, hopefully most of the weapons are used primarily for hunting, and never war, eh? We can't afford a war...ammunition is too valueable.