Interest in a utopian world democracy TL?

[TheLordProtector]

I'm thinking of doing a TL based on this post (http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=6080775&postcount=48) in the 'what's the best TL you can imagine?' thread. It really is the best realistic TL I can imagine, and I want to make a fictional version of it happen.

Also, I'm stuck on names. I'd appreciate suggestions.

[jacobus]

Don't do it! Dystopias are more interesting to read about. They also remind us that our wretched lives really aren't as bad as we think, or at least, could be a lot worse.
However, how about a supposed utopian world, that unknown to many of its people, really is closer to a dystopia? Think about it.

[TheLordProtector]

Don't do it! Dystopias are more interesting to read about. They also remind us that our wretched lives really aren't as bad as we think, or at least, could be a lot worse.
However, how about a supposed utopian world, that unknown to many of its people, really is closer to a dystopia? Think about it.

Yeah, but dystopias and fake utopias are so cliché these days. And anyway, it'll be a rough, hard trip to the good times.

[Richter10]

Go for it! :D
A realistic utopic TL would be a nice change! :)

[Keith]

I like dystopia as much as the next person, but I'd be interested in a well-written utopia for a change (if nothing else). It doesn't have to be conflict-free if the focus is on how the utopia came about or if the utopia acts as a setting for some sort of conflict that threatens it.

[Riain]

Go nuts, but one man's utopia is another's dystopia.

[TheLordProtector]

Yeah, I know that. I'll try to get something for everybody...

[Anaxagoras]

Go nuts, but one man's utopia is another's dystopia.

I agree with this. Most "utopias" are reflections of material bliss and total equality that could only ever be achieved by severe restraints on personal liberty. A tyranny, in other words.

[Corbell Mark IV]

Mmm, I note the post mentions higher investment in Africa. But no mention of whether Third WOrld nationalizations still occur.

I would try reading it, but I doubt I would stick with it. I am sensitive to political slights to my political views.

But hey, I would give it a chance.

I like the idea of trying to describe the best TL. I had missed that thread, I will review it shortly.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.:)

[TheLordProtector]

Mmm, I note the post mentions higher investment in Africa. But no mention of whether Third WOrld nationalizations still occur.

I would try reading it, but I doubt I would stick with it. I am sensitive to political slights to my political views.

But hey, I would give it a chance.

I like the idea of trying to describe the best TL. I had missed that thread, I will review it shortly.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.:)

What are your political views (out of curiosity)?

[Maponus]

Tell me, what's HG Wells more famous for, the utopian novels he deeply cared about, or the nonsensical stories about alien invasions he wrote to make money?

[Anaxagoras]

Mmm, I note the post mentions higher investment in Africa.

What do you mean by "investment", though? If you mean increased foreign aid as it has been done IOTL, that is likely to simply keep Africa in poverty by hindering economic development.

[TheLordProtector]

What do you mean by "investment", though? If you mean increased foreign aid as it has been done IOTL, that is likely to simply keep Africa in poverty by hindering economic development.

What it means, really, is that African colonies are actually prepared for independence beforehand and somewhat guided by the mother country afterwards rather than the OTL solution of "fuck 'em all".

[Richter10]

Utopic works could be interesting too, like "Stellvia of the Universe" - just avoid that they described a Marysuetopia.

[Shevek23]

I voted yes. If you asked me to do it as a challenge, and I were fool enough to accept the challenge, I'd be working with a movement somewhere on the spectrum between Marxist-Leninism and Ursula LeGuin's Odonianism as described in The Dispossessed, with an even heavier dose of eco-feminism thrown in. I can guess right now that looks like a dystopia to some people in the very rosiest possible scenario!:( My personal inclination would be to be tolerant of divergent religious dogmas but to give them short shrift whenever they oppose the movement directly.

Odonianism, for those (the vast majority here, I'm guessing) who haven't read the book, is a kind of "anarchic" communism, anarchic in the sense that they abjure any sort of official state that claims the authority to override an individual's choices. In practice they deal with the possibility that individuals might choose to do harm to others by stressing "the social organism," teaching that we are all part of a larger whole and it behooves us to achieve our individual goals by positive cooperation, which means inquiring as to what works for other people and figuring out how to progress toward one's goals by means that further those of other people we need help from, and avoiding side effects that frustrate others.

One cynical way of looking at it is this requires heavy indoctrination, making "the state" in the form of a nannyish superego instilled in everyone. Also the novel is subtitled "an Ambiguous Utopia" and one of its themes is the apparent degeneration of the Odonian moon colony of Annarres into a de facto state with the central organs that are supposed to serve as tools to facilitate each person's free choices of cooperation into a veiled dictatorship manipulated by egotists disguising their selfish interests from others, and possibly via doublethink themselves, as the mandatory logic of the social organism.

The lesson I draw from that is, some sort of necessity that appears coercive is inevitable in any human society. Another theme of LeGuin's book is that the revolution is eternal, it is always necessary for people to assert themselves and the higher causes they believe they are furthering; conflict cannot be avoided completely.

Therefore it wouldn't faze me too much if the path to this better world is paved with ugly incidents; the benchmark for failure would be, is it a world on the whole worse than our own, or is it at least somewhat better? Also, did the winning side set higher standards for its own behavior than the norm OTL? Is the trend for conflict to diminish in intensity and frequency? Can ordinary human beings find broader life prospects or narrower?

It's no good saying "government is bad" because some sort of cooperative organization is needed to accomplish anything, even just to maintain a barely adequate standard of living, and a movement that focused on merely abolishing ostensible state power must either destroy all means of cooperation or deliver everyone over to hierarchies of private power--that is, power that doesn't even consider the needs of others and sets out to further itself regardless. The "governmental" aspect of Odonianism seeks to impose that consideration as a matter of rational self-interest.

Well, if I could define a workable utopia of this or any other kind that I saw a clear path toward actually achieving, I like to hope I'd be out there working to further it.:o As things are I put a lot more weight on trying to do some good where and when I am, and hoping that it will contribute toward a general betterment by means I don't know how to predict exactly.

So I wouldn't try to write such a timeline. But of all the historical forces known to me OTL, left-wing socialistic utopianism seems the most promising in terms of conformity of goals with my understanding of reality, particularly of human nature. It is true enough that largely unregulated capitalism seems more robust, and certainly is more readily attainable, given the inherent chaos of the human condition, and it may appear that freedom lies entirely in that chaos, but it also looks to me like bowing to the overriding right of owners of private property to do whatever they damn well please, even if they are somewhat constrained by rules like "don't have people murdered without a court order or declaration of war from the legislature," results in what looks like tyranny to me.

The democratic aspect of humanism seems like the only remedy and its logic seems to me to lead to conscious control of the whole economy by democratic institutions, that someday the drawbacks of free competition must either become self-destructive or the incremental introduction of piecemeal legislation and regulation to head off obvious dysfunctionalities must eventually amount to a command economy by roundabout means; at that point the pretense of a "free" economy is no benefit but only a chokepoint. If we could reach that point gradually, with a robust democracy on top of things, abolishing the charade of private enterprise when we have evolved that far would be a painless matter.

We won't get there by that means because the dysfunctionalities of capitalism that seem obvious to me are the guarantees of power and privilege for a few, who will fight hard to keep them. Along the way they will disregard every pious rule they generously agreed to abide by earlier when things did not seem so tight; in practice actually that kind of double standard prevails throughout history.

I've gotten cynical enough to accept that utopia is not in the cards and human history will probably have its nightmarish aspects as long as we exist as a species. But not enough to be comfortable with that and those who are dedicated to trying to make things better remain my heros.

[Asnys]

I'd give it a shot. I'm terribly, terribly tired of dystopias. I don't buy the argument they're any more interesting than a utopia - what's so interesting about a setting where the bad guys always win? And fake utopias are even worse, because most of the time any half-intelligent reader will see it coming before he finishes the first chapter.

[Shevek23]

Oh wow! Nuclear Utopia!

I will listen respectfully. I might not agree, but I'll surely learn something interesting.

[Asnys]

Oh wow! Nuclear Utopia!

I will listen respectfully. I might not agree, but I'll surely learn something interesting.

Um, I meant I'd give reading his TL a shot. Sorry. :o

(Project TSTC is unlikely to be ready for public display this year, and it's not exactly a utopia.)

[Abhakhazia]

Too liberal.

[Samm]

Give it a shot although it will be difficult. Be ready for criticism and realise that many will certainly feel that it is not anything like a utopia. It seems too seldom that people attempt straight out utopia these days.

[Corbell Mark IV]

What are your political views (out of curiosity)?

Fairly right-wing.

The reference to the survival of the US Socialist Party, presented as a good thing, and one or two other little things, give me pause.

I don't require that a story conform to my POV to be enjoyable. But very often I find my POV and/or characters with my POV, to be presented as one dimensional foolish evul masterminds. :rolleyes::(:mad:

Which is bad writing and annoying.

[Faeelin]

Fairly right-wing.

The reference to the survival of the US Socialist Party, presented as a good thing, and one or two other little things, give me pause.


How much do you know about Wilson's campaign against the US Socialist Party?

It's entirely possible to disagree with a party and not support unconstitutional actions to destroy it.

So, to the extent the pod involves "no violation of Americans' constitutional rights" this is certainly better than OTL.

[Corbell Mark IV]

How much do you know about Wilson's campaign against the US Socialist Party?

It's entirely possible to disagree with a party and not support unconstitutional actions to destroy it.

So, to the extent the pod involves "no violation of Americans' constitutional rights" this is certainly better than OTL.

Nothing.

Agreed.

Sounds likely. Depending on the consequences.

[TheLordProtector]

Nothing.

Agreed.

Sounds likely. Depending on the consequences.

Indeed, that's more the point than actually letting the Socialists into power. Furthermore, it enfeebles the Two-Party System (which I, personally, despise with a deep and burning hatred) and allows more parties onto the field, which is good in the long run.