German peace offer after Battle of France

[33k7]

Okay this is my first post
I just wanted some opinions on this idea


The year is July 17, 1940

After the Battle of France Germany offers peace terms to the Allies in exchange for former German colonies and them officially recognizing Germany's control over Poland

In exchange they will pull all forces out of Luxembourg Netherlands Belgium and France and cease all hostilities with the nations.

So how you think it would play out

And if you can Think of a counteroffer to their proposal please post it

[Armored Diplomacy]

I don't think Churchill would accept such a thing. In OTL, he rejected a peace offer from Hitler whereas Britain is left alone and has its empire untouched, and remains a superpower.

[Dan Reilly The Great]

Well, if we somehow get passed the idea that Hitler at this point is at his "I am unstoppable" phase and is willing to make any kind of concessions to anyone(mind you he hadn't decided to scrap the idea of Sealion until after the failure of the Luftwaffe to achieve its goals in the Battle of Britain), then there is still the dubious prospect of the British being willing to accept any kind of offer from a Germany that has broken every agreement it has signed up to this point.




And if you can Think of a counteroffer to their proposal please post it

Perhaps a picture of Winston Churchill mooning the camera, beyond that, a simple note stating "sod off" comes to mind.

[33k7]

I don't think Churchill would accept such a thing. In OTL, he rejected a peace offer from Hitler whereas Britain is left alone and has its empire untouched, and remains a superpower.

What about the other four countries Belgium the Netherlands Luxembourg and France

[33k7]

Well, if we somehow get passed the idea that Hitler at this point is at his "I am unstoppable" phase and is willing to make any kind of concessions to anyone(mind you he hadn't decided to scrap the idea of Sealion until after the failure of the Luftwaffe to achieve its goals in the Battle of Britain), then there is still the dubious prospect of the British being willing to accept any kind of offer from a Germany that has broken every agreement it has signed up to this point.



Perhaps a picture of Winston Churchill mooning the camera, beyond that, a simple note stating "sod off" comes to mind.

the Battle of France lasted less than three months 46 days very minimum damage to both sides infrastructure at its highest casualties on both sides to be a little over 517,000 military casualties
Keep in mind the rest of Europe is in shock of what just happened in France

Winston Churchill wants to be prime minister right is his political opponents going to let him dictate Britain's entire future because the question of if Britain could win the war by itself was probably at a all time low
for the British people

[GarethC]

...The year is July 17, 1940

After the Battle of France Germany offers peace terms to the Allies in exchange for former German colonies and them officially recognizing Germany's control over Poland

In exchange they will pull all forces out of Luxembourg Netherlands Belgium and France and cease all hostilities with the nations.

So how you think it would play out

And if you can Think of a counteroffer to their proposal please post it
I think if Hitler really pressed ahead with this, he would have a nasty shaving accident at the hands of some regretful members of his own party.

Churchill would decline this offer, and his counteroffer would be along the lines of the response given in Arkell vs Pressdram Ltd..

Given that Pétain accepted a much harsher outcome, I am certain France and the Benelux countries would leap at this offer. France would then start re-arming like there was no tomorrow. If France has not gone back to war with Germany by September (more likely they wait until spring '41) then Paris will probably respond more robustly than in the OTL to any Japanese incursion into l'Indochine, probably with British and Dutch aid. However, the German colonies weren't occupied by France, and so wouldn't have been returned.

Mussolini would look at the map of North Africa and despair, start painting Libya, Ethiopia and Italian Somaliland pink, and ask someone to find out what the pension arrangements are for former dictators, as he's about to retire to obscurity in Firenze, maybe opening an ice cream shop.

Stalin would... probably believe Richard Sorge next year. And as soon as Barbarossa is launched, France will declare war on Germany again and try out its new doctrine of guerre d'éclair.

[Armored Diplomacy]

What about the other four countries Belgium the Netherlands Luxembourg and France

They are German-occupied and in no position to make policy. They can't accept or reject anything. The choice was solely Britain's.

[33k7]

I think if Hitler really pressed ahead with this, he would have a nasty shaving accident at the hands of some regretful members of his own party.

Churchill would decline this offer, and his counteroffer would be along the lines of the response given in Arkell vs Pressdram Ltd..

Given that Pétain accepted a much harsher outcome, I am certain France and the Benelux countries would leap at this offer. France would then start re-arming like there was no tomorrow. If France has not gone back to war with Germany by September (more likely they wait until spring '41) then Paris will probably respond more robustly than in the OTL to any Japanese incursion into l'Indochine, probably with British and Dutch aid. However, the German colonies weren't occupied by France, and so wouldn't have been returned.

Mussolini would look at the map of North Africa and despair, start painting Libya, Ethiopia and Italian Somaliland pink, and ask someone to find out what the pension arrangements are for former dictators, as he's about to retire to obscurity in Firenze, maybe opening an ice cream shop.

Stalin would... probably believe Richard Sorge next year. And as soon as Barbarossa is launched, France will declare war on Germany again and try out its new doctrine of guerre d'éclair.

he peace treaty Would hang on mostly the British because they controlled most of Germany's former colonies if Britain walks away

Germany would counteroffer then France would give up all of its colonial empire in northwest Africa to have its freedom


Belgium and the Netherlands would be a mixed bag Germany could demand its colonies and then give them over to some foreign power like Franco gets the Congo/Zaire and maybe the rest of Morocco if he forces the British out of Gibraltar even though the Spanish Civil War did just get over a little over a year ago this would be tempting offer

Japan gets Indonesia if it declares war on the Soviets

Hopefully building stronger alliances

now to your French belief Please turn your attention to the Attack on Mers-el-Kébir resulting in the deaths of 1,297 French servicemen the French would not be happy about this and Second Armistice at Compiègne would be different in this world mind you the France would probably already know a peace treaty was coming or at least being made aware of it at the meeting

you have to remember that the British and French declared war first the French people might not want to be so trigger-happy due to most of their
army being stripped of all of its equipment at least in the north the treaty itself is just a starting point no one is talking about the 1,900,000 allied soldiers that are now POWs

[33k7]

They are German-occupied and in no position to make policy. They can't accept or reject anything. The choice was solely Britain's.

Belgium and the Netherlands government in exile

Leopold III of Belgium was in German custody the prime minister of Belgium was in London and could easily be branded a coward Leopold III of Belgium had more power at this point he could make a peace treaty

Dirk Jan de Geer the prime minister of the Netherlands wanted to make peace with the Nazis so at this point so it probably would've happened

France government was still hanging around Philippe Pétain was still the acting prime minister and would accept the offer

[Armored Diplomacy]

Belgium and the Netherlands government in exile

Leopold III of Belgium was in German custody the prime minister of Belgium was in London and could easily be branded a coward Leopold III of Belgium had more power at this point he could make a peace treaty

Dirk Jan de Geer the prime minister of the Netherlands wanted to make peace with the Nazis so at this point so it probably would've happened

France government was still hanging around Philippe Pétain was still the acting prime minister and would accept the offer

It doesn't matter what they accepted. They were just former leaders in hiding, and had no more control over any territory or military force. Britain had the final say.

[33k7]

It doesn't matter what they accepted. They were just former leaders in hiding, and had no more control over any territory or military force. Britain had the final say.

The British did not become overlord of all of Western Europe and what they say does matter their soldiers will listen to them their families live in these countries there not putting their lives in jeopardy because of some British pride and foolishness

And you're leading to the inevitable conclusion of this Britain drives a major wedge between them and France Belgium and the Netherlands if they think they can tell them what to do you might have the French soldiers that were evacuated from Dunkirk become a major problem in Britain if the British government thinks they can Dictate the future of the French people

[Richter von Manthofen]

I believe Germany would have wanted to make peace - even without giving back the colonies (the colonies would have been more of a bureden than an asset.

But Churchill would NEVER have "given up" - so you have the butterfly a bulldog away first abd then you could make peace - maybe (maybe becase of all the broken - by Germany - agreements.

After Sept. 1st 1939 it was "them or us" - summer 1940 it was almost "us" - but only almost.

(Stronger UK peace faction)

[Armored Diplomacy]

The British did not become overlord of all of Western Europe and what they say does matter their soldiers will listen to them their families live in these countries there not putting their lives in jeopardy because of some British pride and foolishness

And you're leading to the inevitable conclusion of this Britain drives a major wedge between them and France Belgium and the Netherlands if they think they can tell them what to do you might have the French soldiers that were evacuated from Dunkirk become a major problem in Britain if the British government thinks they can Dictate the future of the French people

All Britain has to do is keep fighting, and they can torpedo any of Hitler's offers. He will not withdraw from these countries if the British are still in the game.

[33k7]

I believe Germany would have wanted to make peace - even without giving back the colonies (the colonies would have been more of a bureden than an asset.

But Churchill would NEVER have "given up" - so you have the butterfly a bulldog away first abd then you could make peace - maybe (maybe becase of all the broken - by Germany - agreements.

After Sept. 1st 1939 it was "them or us" - summer 1940 it was almost "us" - but only almost.

(Stronger UK peace faction)

The goal of the treaty was to drive a wedge between the British and France Belgium and the Netherlands

The British Attack on Mers-el-Kébir at this point would be to placing a of a nail and Britain's refusal of the treaty would be hammering a nail into the coffin of Britain's foreign relations with its European allies

[33k7]

All Britain has to do is keep fighting, and they can torpedo any of Hitler's offers. He will not withdraw from these countries if the British are still in the game.

Germany can't do anything about what the British do in ocean but on the land they can dictate everything

how will Britain look to its allies if it abandons their allies and forcing them to give away much more for their freedom the purpose of this treaty itself was to drive a wedge between Britain and its Western European allies the French were just attacked in the Attack on Mers-el-Kébir by the British

Germany didn't need to concentrate on building a Navy it needed to concentrate building alliances and its ground forces the only thing it really needed in the ocean where its submarines to make Britain's life a living hell targeting any ship that will have the British flag on it

[b12ox]

Germans wold not be happy to give up what they conquered solely because they needed the loot and they wanted to turn the industry of France and all of Europe for the war effort in the east, likewise to fight the English and possibly Americans in the future. The fate of France and Norway and the rest was to be sealed for years to come. They could not force all to fill in the ranks in the Werhmacht but who knows what may have happened if they drew a stalemate with the Soviet Union. and permament sacrifice was needed to be paid with blood tax. But the main thing is the werhmcht was underequipped for the war with the Soviets and all they could get from the new additions was to be had.

The word peace by diplomatic means was meaningless in 1940. It would have had to be supported with somehing more substanstial than a signature and there was nothing the germans could have done to apease the English in 1940.

[MattII]

The British will agree only when hell freezes over. As for a counter offer, full retreat from all occupied areas, breaking down their army to Versailles levels, and handing over the heads of all the Nazis on a silver plate would probably be a good start.

[Lemon flavoured]

Churchill would decline this offer, and his counteroffer would be along the lines of the response given in Arkell vs Pressdram Ltd..

Nice reference, and I agree entirely.

[thevaliant]

The year is July 17, 1940

After the Battle of France Germany offers peace terms to the Allies in exchange for former German colonies and them officially recognizing Germany's control over Poland

In exchange they will pull all forces out of Luxembourg Netherlands Belgium and France and cease all hostilities with the nations.

So how you think it would play out

And if you can Think of a counteroffer to their proposal please post it

The counter offer from Churchill will be:

No, you're not getting your colonies back.
Add Norway AND Poland to that list.

Maybe, just maybe we can do a deal, but push it and I'll add the requirement that Cze and Denmark are freed after all.

[Cook]

July 17, 1940

After the Battle of France Germany offers peace terms to the Allies in exchange for former German colonies and them officially recognizing Germany's control over Poland

In exchange they will pull all forces out of Luxembourg Netherlands Belgium and France and cease all hostilities with the nations.

Hitler making such a proposal is about as likely as him learning the violin in order to provide free entertainment at Bar Mitzvahs.

Hitler had just achieved for the German Volk and Reich that which was their racial destiny but which had been denied them for far too long: hegemony in continental Europe. The decadent democracies had crumbled under the onslaught of Nazi Germany and had collapsed in far less time, and at far less cost in blood than had ever been envisioned, further underlining the natural racial and moral superiority of Nazi Germany.

In July 1940 the war was over. A new order had been established in Europe, one that with a firm hand would guarantee ongoing peace, free from the conspiring of Jews and International Bolshevism. The English had been thoroughly beaten; they’d abandoned an entire army’s worth of equipment on the beaches of Dunkirk and fled back to their island. It would only be a short time until they saw reason and asked for peace. If the drunkard Churchill and the warmongering clique surrounding him weren’t willing to see reason then other, more reasonable people would be sure to assume the reins of power and send emissaries to Berlin seeking a place in the New European Order.

And if they didn’t, well then England Goering’s Luftwaffe would simply crush them, just as it had crushed the rest of Europe, or the Kriegsmarine would starve them into submission. Either way, it would be the English coming with cap in hand offering up colonies and trade deals in exchange for peace, not the Master of Europe.

[Devolved]

Okay this is my first post
I just wanted some opinions on this idea


The year is July 17, 1940

After the Battle of France Germany offers peace terms to the Allies in exchange for former German colonies and them officially recognizing Germany's control over Poland

In exchange they will pull all forces out of Luxembourg Netherlands Belgium and France and cease all hostilities with the nations.

So how you think it would play out

And if you can Think of a counteroffer to their proposal please post it

Wishful thinking and no one would fall for it.

The days when anyone except a Nazi sympathizer (or Stalin!) trusts Hitler's offers and guarrantees are gone. He had simply broken too many agreements and lied too often to be trusted. Even if the offer were genuine no one would believe him.

Besides Hitler wants a 1000 year New Order in Europe not a France free to plot revenge with an undefeated Britain. Not when he wants to invade Russia.

As soon as Churchill entered Downing Street the policy of the British government was to destroy Hitler and his regime and that was that. OTL Churchill clung to this idea when nearly everyone else believed Britain had already lost the war in June 1940 so I see no reason for a change in this scenario.

[Grimm Reaper]

Not remotely plausible unless you can explain why Hitler agrees to withdraw from the Alsace-Lorraine, which he stole OTL without even including mention of this in the treaty forced on France.

[b12ox]

I am sure the Germans after succesfull Barbarossa would have been happy to participate in the New World Order in and outside of Europe, which means more than influence in British colonial world. That was another thing why Churchill wanted Germany out of the game. The Soviets were a trouble in Persia true enough and there had been been wars for oil and control of the middle east with the Soviets, but it would have been not nearly as bad as stemming off global objectives of victorious Germany. The Germans may have been contend with the lebensraum in the east but no one in England wanted to take chances. Not saying it was realisable, but thats what was on Churchills mind.

[lucaswillen05]

Only ways this might have happened are:

1 Churchill failed to form a government. Lord Halifax gets the job
2 Chamberlain staggers on after the Norway debacle and through the French campaign
3 The BEF is destroyed at Dunkirk because Hitler does not halt the Panzers

If one or more of the above happened a peace offer from Hitler is more likely to be accepted. If not then, with better German tactics in the Battle of Britain or a U boat blockad (or boh the above) might force a peace even on Churchill. Without the need for the Unmentionable Sea Mammal :D

[b12ox]

Peace with hitler means surrender or at best very uncertain future. That's why Churchill got the job.

[Devolved]

Only ways this might have happened are:

1 Churchill failed to form a government. Lord Halifax gets the job
2 Chamberlain staggers on after the Norway debacle and through the French campaign
3 The BEF is destroyed at Dunkirk because Hitler does not halt the Panzers

If one or more of the above happened a peace offer from Hitler is more likely to be accepted. If not then, with better German tactics in the Battle of Britain or a U boat blockad (or boh the above) might force a peace even on Churchill. Without the need for the Unmentionable Sea Mammal :D

Number 1 maybe.

Number 2 maybe not. IMO Chamberlain wouldn't surrender. His problem was his over confidence in his ability to prevent war not an unwillingness to fight. In cabinet he was open to ideas but not to surrender.

Number 3 no difference. OTL the decision of the cabinet to fight on to the finish was made on May 28th when the BEF was still on the Dunkirk beach and in danger of being lost.

[lucaswillen05]

Number 1 maybe.

Number 2 maybe not. IMO Chamberlain wouldn't surrender. His problem was his over confidence in his ability to prevent war not an unwillingness to fight. In cabinet he was open to ideas but not to surrender.

Number 3 no difference. OTL the decision of the cabinet to fight on to the finish was made on May 28th when the BEF was still on the Dunkirk beach and in danger of being lost.

On 2 we might have Chamberlain falling after the French disaster instead of a month or so earlier. If we agree there is a possibility Churchill fails to form a new government then it is probably Halifax who gets the job. If the BEF had been destroyed at Dunkirk then a large part of the British army is gone although some would remain in Britain. In this situation maybe the new British government, whover it is led by, would have to seriously reconsider a German peace offer. If the war continues Germany must still either win the Battle of Britain, impose a submarine blockade or actually try the Unmentionable Sea Mammal thing (for which control of the air is a pre requisite asis some control of the Channel. Even if the Germans did pull it off under the above circunstances it would be very close. Cutting British supplies by U Boat blocade would be much safer and, in OTL came close.

[Grimm Reaper]

Halifax was offered the job and refused on the grounds that a member of the House of Lords could not be Prime Minister so he's not an option.

[Anaxagoras]

How is this question any different from OTL? Hitler did make a peace offer to Britain after the Battle of France and Churchill told him where he could stick it.

[33k7]

How is this question any different from OTL? Hitler did make a peace offer to Britain after the Battle of France and Churchill told him where he could stick it.


That's the point of the treaty Churchill would outright refutes the nations that are under German occupation would not their governments would accept it pretty quickly

but once Britain backed out it would be seen as a betrayal to the nations in Europe and remember the British just killed over 1000 French sailors and destroy the French fleet in this month

once Britain backed out Germany would not be getting their former colonies so they would renegotiate with the Netherlands Belgium and France

France giving up most of northwest Africa for independence
Belgium giving up the Congo which would in turn along with the rest of Morocco be offered to Franco in exchange for getting the British out of Gibraltar

The Netherlands giving Indonesia Germany offers Japan Indonesia for free forcing Britain to declare war on Japan Britain is now in a two front war FDR couldn't force Congress to declare war on Japan in this case he would only get his war if Japan declared war on Britain first

[Zmflavius]

That's the point of the treaty Churchill would outright refutes the nations that are under German occupation would not their governments would accept it pretty quickly

but once Britain backed out it would be seen as a betrayal to the nations in Europe and remember the British just killed over 1000 French sailors and destroy the French fleet in this month

once Britain backed out Germany would not be getting their former colonies so they would renegotiate with the Netherlands Belgium and France

France giving up most of northwest Africa for independence
Belgium giving up the Congo which would in turn along with the rest of Morocco be offered to Franco in exchange for getting the British out of Gibraltar

The Netherlands giving Indonesia Germany offers Japan Indonesia for free forcing Britain to declare war on Japan Britain is now in a two front war FDR couldn't force Congress to declare war on Japan in this case he would only get his war if Japan declared war on Britain first

Considering how pathetic the Kriegsmarine surface fleet was, colonies are an extremely poor trade for European hegemony. Not to mention that the Nazis were always more concerned with a Greater German Reich in Europe, not colonies.

And FDR didn't have to force Congress to declare war, he just needed to goad Japan into war by cutting off the oil.

[Cook]

And FDR didn't have to force Congress to declare war, he just needed to goad Japan into war by cutting off the oil.
Oh for Chist' Sake!

[Grimm Reaper]

Goaded Japan by cutting off shipments which Tokyo could no longer pay for in the first place.:rolleyes:

[Zmflavius]

I'll admit that my knowledge of this period of history is that there was an oil embargo, but I'll admit that I wasn't aware that Japan was also going bankrupt.

[33k7]

33k7

Welcome to AH.com:)

There are just a few things to note you may not find in the rules:

Beware the cliched/done to death discussion threads/time lines:

1) Successful Operation Sealion (otherwise known here as The Unmentionable Seamammal)

2) Axis defeats Soviet Union

3) Nazis get The Bomb first

4) Imperial Japan invades/conquers Hawaii/Australia in WWII

5) Nazi Germany Triumphant in WWII

6) Japan Triumphant in WWII

7) Nazi Germany is "Nazi In Name Only", otherwise known as "NINO"'s. Thus, allowing them to accomplish so many more things than they did but couldn't OTL because they were too choked up with their Nazi racial beliefs. The thing is, if they didn't behave like Nazis, they wouldn't have been able to lie, cheat, steal, and break every agreement they ever made to get them to the pinnacle of power that they enjoyed.

(I know 1-7 have overlap, but I'm just making a point here)

Don't feel bad. We all do this at one time or another. Each of us has a predilection for a particular ATL idea, usually one of the above (or something similar). With time and learning, we realize just WHY such things are at the edge of the ASB Forum, even if not in it outright.

Do you have any other ideas? Let us know!:)

Thank you for the welcome

Should this be categorized as a alien space bat moment

I see this as the only stopgap to force Britain into a major problem the Nazis could not invade Britain so why bother this is my plan of action

First make the British betray its allies forming a wedge in between them

Negotiations with France, Belgium and the Netherlands

France turns over control of all of them their northwest African colonies or at the very least gives temporary control of Algeria to Germany and gives the rest of Morocco and German former colonies to Germany

Belgium surrenders the Congo to Germany

The Netherlands gives up all of Indonesia or a sizable chunk of it.

Second get Franco to kick the British out of Gibraltar way to get Franco Way to get him to join give him the rest of Morocco and the Congo

Third force the British into a two front war with Japan by having the British declare war on Japan easy way for this to happen is to give Japan Indonesia or at least part of it

Fourth make a U-boat deathtrap from the British Isles to Egypt destroying every British ship that is seen

In between hopefully get Turkey to declare war on Britain in exchange for British territory in the Middle East

Get the Kingdom of Sweden to sign a military alliance in the event that Russia invades Nazi Germany treaty would be void if Germany attacked first.

Hopefully being able to take Cyprus from Britain and use it as a landing zone for bombers and fighters to attack British interests in the Middle East and supply lines

Fifth Winston Churchill is ousted as prime minister peace is achieved British lose control over Israel Palestine and Iraq and returned former German colonies

Germany would allow the Soviets to attack first and then have a counterattack this time though pretending to be a liberation force to the Soviet people to gain their support in the opening years of the war

the major problems of Hitler was his ability not to use common sense Stalin was a monster act as a kind liberating force and you may have a Soviet union in civil war within a year Stalin dead within two years

[33k7]

Considering how pathetic the Kriegsmarine surface fleet was, colonies are an extremely poor trade for European hegemony. Not to mention that the Nazis were always more concerned with a Greater German Reich in Europe, not colonies.

And FDR didn't have to force Congress to declare war, he just needed to goad Japan into war by cutting off the oil.


FDR could not declare war on Japan in 1941 it took Pearl Harbor to have that happen and if Britain declares war on Japan America does not get involved

there may be a push for in the Congress and Senate but the American public will not support it there is no rallying cry
and Britain brought this upon themselves they were offered peace and they refuse i have posted several comments

this is a plan to destroying Britain will for war and force them into peace and making FDR and Winston Churchill look like warmongers

[darkenedaze]

Take away Churchill, and add a large bag of prisoners the Germans should have bagged at Dunkirk, and you have G.B. at peace with the Reich after the invasion of France. G.B. was still haunted by a generation of young men mutilated by the First World War. Can you imagine the English public facing the total destruction of the BEF a scant 22 years later? And without Churchill?

[Dan Reilly The Great]

33k7, you keep mentioning that the Germans can use this peace offer to drive a wedge between the British and their allies. What 'Allies' are you talking about? The only allies that the British have at this point are either governments in exile, various partisan groups in occupied Europe, and free military forces that escaped their home countries before they fell to the Nazis. None of these forces are going to get more pissed at the British because they don't accept a peace offer from the Germans. And even if that isn't the case, their choice is between sticking it out with a British government that 'betrayed' them, and a brutal militaristic empire that conquered them and broke every agreement it has ever signed.

[33k7]

33k7, you keep mentioning that the Germans can use this peace offer to drive a wedge between the British and their allies. What 'Allies' are you talking about? The only allies that the British have at this point are either governments in exile, various partisan groups in occupied Europe, and free military forces that escaped their home countries before they fell to the Nazis. None of these forces are going to get more pissed at the British because they don't accept a peace offer from the Germans. And even if that isn't the case, their choice is between sticking it out with a British government that 'betrayed' them, and a brutal militaristic empire that conquered them and broke every agreement it has ever signed.

So you're saying that the three governments would not accept peace and follow the British blindly into what is now is a hopeless war and abandoning their loved ones in their home countries to suffer under occupation because Britain want to continue a war with a country that just destroyed them in mainland Europe I have said in a previous comment that


Belgium and the Netherlands government in exile

Leopold III of Belgium was in German custody the prime minister of Belgium was in London and could easily be branded a coward Leopold III of Belgium had more power at this point he could make a peace treaty

Dirk Jan de Geer the prime minister of the Netherlands wanted to make peace with the Nazis so at this point so it probably would've happened

France government was still hanging around Philippe Pétain was still the acting prime minister and would accept the offer

[Dave Howery]

Take away Churchill, and add a large bag of prisoners the Germans should have bagged at Dunkirk, and you have G.B. at peace with the Reich after the invasion of France. G.B. was still haunted by a generation of young men mutilated by the First World War. Can you imagine the English public facing the total destruction of the BEF a scant 22 years later? And without Churchill?

along with losing in France and getting smashed at Dunkirk, maybe add in Germany winning the Battle of Britain and devastating the RAF? Those three together might do the job. Granted, getting the Luftwaffe to win the BoB is quite a chore...

[CalBear]

I'll admit that my knowledge of this period of history is that there was an oil embargo, but I'll admit that I wasn't aware that Japan was also going bankrupt.


Gone bankrupt actually.

The yen was not a reserve currency in 1940. You paid for thing either in dollars or pounds (unless you had currency reserves for the country you were dealing with, which mainly the Japanese didn't). If you lacked dollars or pounds you paid in gold. Most of Japan's gold was in deposit in either New York or London (where it would be moved from the Japan vault to the Brazil vault if Japan bought good from Brazil, movement happened once a quarter). Japan didn't have the gold reserves on deposit necessary to make major purchases and the lending banks were all British or American at the time and the UK banks couldn't float the loans and the U.S. banks wouldn't

The UK was not sending pounds outside the Commonwealth because of the war. The U.S. was not sending dollars to Japan as a result of the embargo (Japan wasn't buying or selling much to the U.S. by that point).

Japan put itself into this position by hyper-aggression toward China and in grabbing "French Indochina" as soon as France fell. No one forced them to do anything.

[CalBear]

Actually Hitler's main problem was that he was bug-fuck insane, a sociopath in the bargain, while harboring a hatred for numerous ethnic groups.

I would move this to ASB except there is no magic involved. What is involved is a through misunderstanding of what the Reich actually was, how it was organized, and what the Nazi Party believed.Thank you for the welcome

Should this be categorized as a alien space bat moment

I see this as the only stopgap to force Britain into a major problem the Nazis could not invade Britain so why bother this is my plan of action

First make the British betray its allies forming a wedge in between them

Negotiations with France, Belgium and the Netherlands

France turns over control of all of them their northwest African colonies or at the very least gives temporary control of Algeria to Germany and gives the rest of Morocco and German former colonies to Germany

Belgium surrenders the Congo to Germany

The Netherlands gives up all of Indonesia or a sizable chunk of it.

Second get Franco to kick the British out of Gibraltar way to get Franco Way to get him to join give him the rest of Morocco and the Congo

Third force the British into a two front war with Japan by having the British declare war on Japan easy way for this to happen is to give Japan Indonesia or at least part of it

Fourth make a U-boat deathtrap from the British Isles to Egypt destroying every British ship that is seen

In between hopefully get Turkey to declare war on Britain in exchange for British territory in the Middle East

Get the Kingdom of Sweden to sign a military alliance in the event that Russia invades Nazi Germany treaty would be void if Germany attacked first.

Hopefully being able to take Cyprus from Britain and use it as a landing zone for bombers and fighters to attack British interests in the Middle East and supply lines

Fifth Winston Churchill is ousted as prime minister peace is achieved British lose control over Israel Palestine and Iraq and returned former German colonies

Germany would allow the Soviets to attack first and then have a counterattack this time though pretending to be a liberation force to the Soviet people to gain their support in the opening years of the war

the major problems of Hitler was his ability not to use common sense Stalin was a monster act as a kind liberating force and you may have a Soviet union in civil war within a year Stalin dead within two years

[33k7]

along with losing in France and getting smashed at Dunkirk, maybe add in Germany winning the Battle of Britain and devastating the RAF? Those three together might do the job. Granted, getting the Luftwaffe to win the BoB is quite a chore...


Nazi Germany didn't have a chance to win the battle of Britain it would have taken years and the Germans didn't have that much time Stalin was making his own designs on Europe so he would be coming probably in the fall of 1944 or the summer of 1945 Britain has to be out of the war by the summer of 1943 otherwise Germany is in a two front war

[CalBear]

Take away Churchill, and add a large bag of prisoners the Germans should have bagged at Dunkirk, and you have G.B. at peace with the Reich after the invasion of France. G.B. was still haunted by a generation of young men mutilated by the First World War. Can you imagine the English public facing the total destruction of the BEF a scant 22 years later? And without Churchill?

So not going to happen.

The British had way more balls than you are giving them credit for.

[33k7]

Actually Hitler's main problem was that he was bug-fuck insane, a sociopath in the bargain, while harboring a hatred for numerous ethnic groups.

I would move this to ASB except there is no magic involved. What is involved is a through misunderstanding of what the Reich actually was, how it was organized, and what the Nazi Party believed.

Hitler was a foolish when it came to diplomacy and war after the battle of France the occupation force was over 1,500,000 in these three countries the campaign in North Africa was extremely overlooked.

He left an opening in his side leaving the the British as an enemy you have to take Britain out before you can take on the Soviets and you have to have the Soviets declare war first to not give the French and British governments the option of declaring war if you can defeat the French and British prior to the Soviet invasion of Europe they will be licking their wounds while you will be free to use whatever means necessary to stop the Soviet union

preparing defenses and supplies so Germany can counterattack the Soviet offensive and as I've said before pretending to be a liberating force from the iron fisted rule of Josef Stalin is an excellent way to have the Soviet people and army turn on him all of them purges pissed off most of a lot of people if you give them the option to kill that man and his cronies it will happen.

[Grimm Reaper]

How the Soviet Union is going to be convinced to invade Europe remains entirely mysterious and unsupported in this thread...

[33k7]

So not going to happen.

The British had way more balls than you are giving them credit for.


So hit them where it hurts their pride destroy their colonial empire in North Africa

That's where my scenario will be focusing the soldiers that would be occupying French in Belgium and the Netherlands a massive buildup in Libya for one giant push to take Egypt the Suez Canal and Jerusalem

[CalBear]

You are aware that Hitler invaded the USSR in order to wage a war of extermination right?Hitler was a foolish when it came to diplomacy and war after the battle of France the occupation force was over 1,500,000 in these three countries the campaign in North Africa was extremely overlooked.

He left an opening in his side leaving the the British as an enemy you have to take Britain out before you can take on the Soviets and you have to have the Soviets declare war first to not give the French and British governments the option of declaring war if you can defeat the French and British prior to the Soviet invasion of Europe they will be licking their wounds while you will be free to use whatever means necessary to stop the Soviet union

preparing defenses and supplies so Germany can counterattack the Soviet offensive and as I've said before pretending to be a liberating force from the iron fisted rule of Josef Stalin is an excellent way to have the Soviet people and army turn on him all of them purges pissed off most of a lot of people if you give them the option to kill that man and his cronies it will happen.

[33k7]

How the Soviet Union is going to be convinced to invade Europe remains entirely mysterious and unsupported in this thread...

Stalin has made it quite clear he wanted to take control over Europe for quite some time

he believed he had more time before the Germans would be ready to attack him in our world

[Devolved]

So hit them where it hurts their pride destroy their colonial empire in North Africa

That's where my scenario will be focusing the soldiers that would be occupying French in Belgium and the Netherlands a massive buildup in Libya for one giant push to take Egypt the Suez Canal and Jerusalem

Oh dear we have another one. The supply is endless.

[usertron2020]

Halifax was offered the job and refused on the grounds that a member of the House of Lords could not be Prime Minister so he's not an option.

I've never understood the basic blindness of so many historians to see this basic fact. This, and that the only "people" in the UK of any serious note who actually WANTED Halifax were Number 10 and Whitehall.

[Dan Reilly The Great]

So hit them where it hurts their pride destroy their colonial empire in North Africa

That's where my scenario will be focusing the soldiers that would be occupying French in Belgium and the Netherlands a massive buildup in Libya for one giant push to take Egypt the Suez Canal and Jerusalem

The idea of the Germans putting more troops has been brought up and debunked repeatedly in this forum. The Axis just did not have the logistics to support a larger force than they sent to Africa OTL. Also, if any troops were freed up from garrison duty in Europe, they would be sent to fight the Soviets, not fight a campaign that Hitler viewed as a diversion and was primarily pursued in order to placate Mussolini.

[Grimm Reaper]

33k7, please feel free to provide evidence supporting that claim at any time.

[usertron2020]

I'll admit that my knowledge of this period of history is that there was an oil embargo, but I'll admit that I wasn't aware that Japan was also going bankrupt.

Japan was demanding the right to pay for the oil in Yen.:rolleyes:

[33k7]

You are aware that Hitler invaded the USSR in order to wage a war of extermination right?

Who said he had to do it right away support a revolt against Stalin which would cause massive damage to the Soviet military and then turn around back stab them while they're divided

[GarethC]

Dirk Jan de Geer the prime minister of the Netherlands wanted to make peace with the Nazis so at this point so it probably would've happened
Queen Wilhelmina dismissed de Geer from his post for his collaborative attitude in OTL Sept 1940, to replace him with the more militant Gerbrandy. I don't see her doing differently here, when so much of the Netherlands military is in the DEI, as are its major sources of revenue. Wilhelmina was a woman of formidable will and dedicated to preserving the DEI as part of the Netherlands.

France government was still hanging around Philippe Pétain was still the acting prime minister and would accept the offer
Equally, de Gaulle had already claimed to be the legitimate government, and would not accept the offer.

While the French colonies in North Africa sided with Vichy (unlike those in Equatorial Africa), I rather suspect that should Pétain try to give them away to Hitler, they'd change alignment from Vichy to Free French very quickly.

[Dan Reilly The Great]

Stalin has made it quite clear he wanted to take control over Europe for quite some time

he believed he had more time before the Germans would be ready to attack him in our world


Having the patience to wait for the Soviets to get their ducks in a row and launch an attack is the quality of a sane man, Hitler is not a sane man. Also, the German economy; the way the Nazis were running it, wasn't likely to survive long enough for the Soviets to make their move, at least not without additional conquests to feed itself.

[Devolved]

The OP just wants to know how to get a German victory I think.

ANYTHING will do. Send the army into Egypt and Palestine.

Get the British to leave the war just because Hitler promises to evacuate Western Europe.

Invade the USSR at just the right time.

I'm waiting for him to suggest getting the Me 262 jet and the King Tiger into service a couple of years early.

[33k7]

33k7, please feel free to provide evidence supporting that claim at any time.


Here you go good sir

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy
http://www.rense.com/general75/makk.htm

Now don't believe that Stalin would have started the war in 1941 after he had just killed half of his military officers but I do believe he would have started it in 1943 or 1944

[33k7]

The OP just wants to know how to get a German victory I think.

ANYTHING will do. Send the army into Egypt and Palestine.

Get the British to leave the war just because Hitler promises to evacuate Western Europe.

Invade the USSR at just the right time.

I'm waiting for him to suggest getting the Me 262 jet and the King Tiger into service a couple of years early.

If you're going to exterminate an entire people you have to divide them first and that would be really easy inside Stalin's Soviet Union act like the peaceful liberator and the Soviet people will turn on him and then amongst themselves to put someone new in power

Attacking at the right time is not an option for Nazi Germany attacked in the right way is the only way to win.

And if you really want to wipe them out after they're divided position the military ready the bombers attack every major city with a surprise attack wiping out entire cities with mustard gas or something like that building jet and super tanks is just stupid using biological weapons is a lot cheaper and more effective if you really wanted to wipe out the Soviets take away their will in one fell swoop and then have your army mop up

again this is just an alternate history map I am making
not a debate in our worlds reality

[Geon]

If I may add my own two cents to this discussion?

I'd like to say I think it is improbable that the Allies would accept peace for two reasons. Those two reasons were Hitler and Churchill.

Churchill hated Hitler period. Further, Churchill was a student of history, especially recent history. Hitler had broken every single treaty and agrement he had made with the Allies. Unlike Chamberlain, Churchill was not naive. He knew that any peace agreement would last only as long as it was convenient for Hitler. He also knew that Hitler was planning an attack on Russia. Even assuming that Hitler kept his word and did withdraw from France and the Low Countries (see below) there was no guarantee he wouldn't be back later to reoccupy them under some pretext or another. And if he won against Russia he would have the resources of Russia to add to his empire. This and having a very large well trained army would make him nigh unstoppable. To Churchill it was better to fight Hitler now when he and the Allies had a chance however slim at the moment of success then later when Hitler's forces would be practically unbeatable.

Hitler on the other hand saw things from the perspective of revenge and strategy. Hitler wanted revenge on France for her defeat of Germany in 1918 and the humiliating terms of the Treaty of Versailles. Just defeating the French army wasn't enough, Hitler would have demanded some territorial adjustments. Furthermore, Hitler knew he needed the Low Countries and French coast as long as England stayed in the war. If France was allowed to rearm they would eventually want to start another war with Germany. Hitler was not about to allow that. Better to occupy France and keep it from being used by Great Britain and France for a future attack on Germany. No. Hitler was happy to offer Britain a peace treaty, but withdrawal from occupied territories was not on the program for him.

Geon

[Devolved]

If you're going to exterminate an entire people you have to divide them first and that would be really easy inside Stalin's Soviet Union act like the peaceful liberator and the Soviet people will turn on him and then amongst themselves to put someone new in power

Attacking at the right time is not an option for Nazi Germany attacked in the right way is the only way to win.

And if you really want to wipe them out after they're divided position the military ready the bombers attack every major city with a surprise attack wiping out entire cities with mustard gas or something like that building jet and super tanks is just stupid using biological weapons is a lot cheaper and more effective if you really wanted to wipe out the Soviets take away their will in one fell swoop and then have your army mop up

again this is just an alternate history map I am making
not a debate in our worlds reality

It starts with a thread about a peace offer to get Britain to leave the war and then we get to how to win in the east and wipe out the people of the USSR.

I'm getting quite good at this Naziwank spotting I think.

As a famous Austrian once said "You only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down"

[CalBear]

If you're going to exterminate an entire people you have to divide them first and that would be really easy inside Stalin's Soviet Union act like the peaceful liberator and the Soviet people will turn on him and then amongst themselves to put someone new in power

Attacking at the right time is not an option for Nazi Germany attacked in the right way is the only way to win.

And if you really want to wipe them out after they're divided position the military ready the bombers attack every major city with a surprise attack wiping out entire cities with mustard gas or something like that building jet and super tanks is just stupid using biological weapons is a lot cheaper and more effective if you really wanted to wipe out the Soviets take away their will in one fell swoop and then have your army mop up

again this is just an alternate history map I am making
not a debate in our worlds reality
I was trying to decide if you were a troll, a Reich fanboy, or just utterly clueless.

You have taken the utterly clueless off the table. Thanks.

We don't need any more Reich Fanboys, and we have way too many trolls as is.

Thanks for stopping by.

We divorce you.

To Coventry with you.

[b12ox]

Sealion was a long shot at intimidating the English. Ive red somwhere they were happy they achieved that much even though the island was saved. The result of course was massive bombardments of german cities. Hitler didn't want to consider that it could end with retaliatiory strikes and it was obvious it would.


The Soviets would never attack Germany, at least not until the combat armour is upgraded which meant years. They knew very well the state of german miltary equipment was far superior.

[Devolved]

Sealion was a long shot at intimidating the English. Ive red somwhere they were happy they achieved that much even though the island was saved. The result of course was massive bombardments of german cities. Hitler didn't want to consider that it could end with retaliatiory strikes and it was obvious it would.


The Soviets would never attack Germany, at least not until the combat armour is upgraded which meant years. They knew very well the state of german miltary equipment was far superior.

German military equipment far superior is a little bit of an exaggeration:confused:.

The Germans best tank was the Panzer IV while the Soviets were introducing the T34 and KV1 both MUCH BETTER than anything the Germans had.

The Soviet 76mm gun was later copied by the Germans as the 7.62 paK 36.

I'm sure others with more knowledge of weapons would add to that list.

[b12ox]

If you're going to exterminate an entire people you have to divide them first and that would be really easy inside Stalin's Soviet Union act like the peaceful liberator and the Soviet people will turn on him and then amongst themselves to put someone new in power

Attacking at the right time is not an option for Nazi Germany attacked in the right way is the only way to win.

And if you really want to wipe them out after they're divided position the military ready the bombers attack every major city with a surprise attack wiping out entire cities with mustard gas or something like that building jet and super tanks is just stupid using biological weapons is a lot cheaper and more effective if you really wanted to wipe out the Soviets take away their will in one fell swoop and then have your army mop up

again this is just an alternate history map I am making
not a debate in our worlds reality

Nazis were alwayz trying to devide first. Jews against locals, one country against another offering some scraps for land, ethnicities and so on. There were massive number of soviet colaborators drawn from not russian ethinics, driving trucks, working by supplies, not just slave labour.

[Kalvan]

This post may or may not belong in Alien Space Bats, but If I were Hitler, then after the Battle of France, my treaty offer to France and the Low Countries would be this:

1. Plebecite in Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxumbourg (And I will insist upon an honest electoral process with no reprisals for a negative vote, and will abide by them posthaste.) whether for independence or joining the Reich at the level of "Lander." A third electoral choice in Belgium would be for Flanders to join the Reich and Walloonia to join France.

2. The return of Alsace-Lorraine, but the whole of it.

3. The Concession of Nice and Savoy to Italy, and Rousillon and French Morocco to Spain.

4. The Concession of Togoland and Cameroon back to Germany (Namibia and Tanganyika can wait until after my plans involving the battle of Britain), but no other North African territories will be ceeded to Germany.

5. The Dutch East Indies are to be sold to Japan. The Netherlands may set any reasonable price, but mest be willing to accept payment in yen and/or Japanese durable goods. The Japanese, if they wish to own Indonesia, must be willing to pay a price for the archipelago other than blood and war materiel.

6. For the next five years, France will maintain a standing professional army of no more than 250,000. They are limited to a maximum 1000 self-propelled armored artillery land vehicles (which should include the defitition of tank handily) of a main gun caliber of between 13 and 65 mm. (No limit on such vehicles with main guns smaller than 13 mm, since I doubt the French or anyone else will invent a practical rail-machinegun in the then forseeable future). They may maintain an air force of no more than 400 combat planes and no more than 800 support aircraft. Combat helicopters count as combat planes.

7. There will be no reparations to Germany from France, but any remaining reparations to France due to WWI are officially canceled. Any and all assets looted from French sites in contravention the the Geneva conventions will be returned posthaste, and punished most harshly. (In places like Dachau, if possible)

8. Germany reserves the right to lease (at appropriate rates) plots of 1000 hectares for the stationing of naval or air assets and all appropriate constuction to support this pourpose at the following sites: Eu, Dieppe, Le Havre, Ouestrieham, Cherebourg-Octeville, Avranches, St Malo, Pleubian, and Brest.

[b12ox]

German military equipment far superior is a little bit of an exaggeration:confused:.

The Germans best tank was the Panzer IV while the Soviets were introducing the T34 and KV1 both MUCH BETTER than anything the Germans had.

The Soviet 76mm gun was later copied by the Germans as the 7.62 paK 36.

I'm sure others with more knowledge of weapons would add to that list.
well, if an army of 5000 tanks gets destroyed by 300 than we are talking here of near total superiority. It happened more than once in the first two years. Majority of soviet equipment was obsolete.

[Devolved]

well, if an army of 5000 tanks gets destroyed by 300 than we are talking here of near total superiority. It happened more than once in the first two years. Majority of soviet equipment was obsolete.

Yes a lot of Soviet equipment was obsolete in 1941 but you are confusing superior German leadership, training and tactics with other things.

German equipment wasn't far more advanced than the Russians. It never was and never would be.

[RGB]

The Soviets would never attack Germany, at least not until the combat armour is upgraded which meant years. They knew very well the state of german miltary equipment was far superior.

No it wasn't?

The Germans happily used Czech and French equipment and later captured Soviet gear too.

T-26 was getting rather old (but still better than anything older than PzIII or the newest Fiat)...but the other lines were very good at their roles, both BTs and KVs

The Germans did produce a lot more radios, and they had much better training for specific kind of combat, which, combined with Soviet misdeployments provides you the lopsided results.

Hardly reflects on the hardware though.

[b12ox]

no, the majority was not suited to engage german troops. Planning and strategy was one thing but even here, you can not plan big game with bows and arrows, even if you want to. All the Russians could do was to batter and wear down the opponent as much as possible with what they had.

[b12ox]

besides, large scale operations require supply lines to follow the troops. Half of soviet tanks didn't even make it to battle and were left unused due to shortage of fuel, spare parts, mechanics. The gear was to be upraded and because of that not much was done to assure all that, including planning and strategy before the war started. Why upgrade old computer with modern software?

[Zmflavius]

no, the majority was not suited to engage german troops. Planning and strategy was one thing but even here, you can not plan big game with bows and arrows, even if you want to. All the Russians could do was to batter and wear down the opponent as much as possible with what they had.

Err, the T-34 was introduced in 1940, and remained a viable main battle tank until the 1950s. For most of WWII, it was a dominant MBT. The KV-1, and it's later evolution, the IS-2 were the best heavy tanks of the war as well. The Sturmovik was widely considered one of the best ground attack planes of the war as well. Soviet aircraft in general was also passably good, though there was an appalling shortage of trained pilots in the early days of the war. Katyushas remained a very modern weapon for most of the war. And the Soviets had a lot of all of it.

besides, large scale operations require supply lines to follow the troops. Half of soviet tanks didn't even make it to battle and were left unused due to shortage of fuel, spare parts, mechanics. The gear was to be upraded and because of that not much was done to assure all that, including planning and strategy before the war started. Why upgrade old computer with modern software?

Which is very much different from having obsolete hardware.

[RGB]

no, the majority was not suited to engage german troops. Planning and strategy was one thing but even here, you can not plan big game with bows and arrows, even if you want to. All the Russians could do was to batter and wear down the opponent as much as possible with what they had.

About 60% of German armoured vehicles (Pz I-II in all variants, almost all captured Czech vehicles, a good deal of the French) were unequivocally worse than the Soviets' obsolete T-26. The Soviets actually chose a bad moment to tech up from T-26, T-37, T-28 and BT-7 to T-34, T-50 and the KV series.

I'd even argue they'd have been better off producing more spare parts and maintaining their old fleet than upgrading to the new designs.

Hitler chose his time of attack really well.

[Astrodragon]

33k7, you keep mentioning that the Germans can use this peace offer to drive a wedge between the British and their allies. What 'Allies' are you talking about? The only allies that the British have at this point are either governments in exile, various partisan groups in occupied Europe, and free military forces that escaped their home countries before they fell to the Nazis. None of these forces are going to get more pissed at the British because they don't accept a peace offer from the Germans. And even if that isn't the case, their choice is between sticking it out with a British government that 'betrayed' them, and a brutal militaristic empire that conquered them and broke every agreement it has ever signed.

Ah yes, it was terrible in 1940.
The British Empire and its Dominions were fighting alone.
All 500 Million of them.....:p:p

[usertron2020]

This thread was started by a newbie who was banned for trolling and Nazi-fanboying. I would suggest to the mods that they lock this thread.

[GarethC]

Ah yes, it was terrible in 1940.
The British Empire and its Dominions were fighting alone.
All 500 Million of them.....:p:p

There is a strange disconnect between the two concepts of "the plucky little island standing alone against the masters of Europe" and "the largest empire the world has ever seen upon which the sun never sets".

I suppose one of those plays better in movie-script-world.

[MattII]

Well most of that population was piss-poor farmers with the only real industrial base outside of Britain being Canada, which had a grand total population of less than 12 million, and maybe Australia (population just over 7 million), although that was mostly limited to armoured cars with a few aircraft (mostly trainers) and tanks on the side.

[Astrodragon]

There is a strange disconnect between the two concepts of "the plucky little island standing alone against the masters of Europe" and "the largest empire the world has ever see upon which the sun never sets".

I suppose one of those plays better in movie-script-world.

Indeed, it was noted at the time as well :)

Standing alone does play much better on the political stage.

[Devolved]

Well most of that population was piss-poor farmers with the only real industrial base outside of Britain being Canada, which had a grand total population of less than 12 million, and maybe Australia (population just over 7 million), although that was mostly limited to armoured cars with a few aircraft (mostly trainers) and tanks on the side.

Yes but the combined population of Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa alone was greater than Hitlers enlarged Germany and had a greater GDP. The piss poor farmers in the Third World provided 2 million troops plus raw materials at a low price and labour to build things like airfields, roads things like that:rolleyes:.

[VictorLaszlo]

The only slight hope to end WW2 after the fall of France would be Hitler suffering a stroke or heart attack and dying from it in June 1940 and some saner heads coming to power in Germany and making the following offer:

Retreat from France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark and Norway. All those countries keep their colonies. Alsace-Lorraine falls under german administration for 15 years, thereafter a plebiscite is to be held there to determine whether the population wants to stay german or become french once again. In might be a smart idea to hold 2 seperate plebiscites for Alsace and Lorraine respectively, where Alsace would most likely prefer staying german and Lorraine to be returned to France.

And even that might not be enough, as there still would be demands that Germany retreats from Poland as well. But there, Germany could play the card that they are willing to do so if only the USSR would do it as well, knowing, that Stalin will never accept.

[CalBear]

There is a strange disconnect between the two concepts of "the plucky little island standing alone against the masters of Europe" and "the largest empire the world has ever see upon which the sun never sets".

I suppose one of those plays better in movie-script-world.


Well, the reality is that they are both correct. The Empire was huge, but it was also dispersed. After the fall of France the closest active ally the British had was Canada, 3,000 miles away and on the other side of the Atlantic. That's a bit lonely, especially when the enemy is doing their best to sink everything headed to your home island.

[Deckhand]

Well most of that population was piss-poor farmers with the only real industrial base outside of Britain being Canada, which had a grand total population of less than 12 million, and maybe Australia (population just over 7 million), although that was mostly limited to armoured cars with a few aircraft (mostly trainers) and tanks on the side.

Canada produced nearly twice as many non tank military vehicles as Germany, Italy, and Japan combined, more tanks than Japan and Italy combined, more aircraft than Italy, and twice as much artillery than italy and Japan combined. On economic terms alone, Canada was worth more to Britain than Italy was worth to Germany, by far.

Just sayin.

[KACKO]

The Soviet 76mm gun was later copied by the Germans as the 7.62 paK 36.
It was not copied I belive but Reworked and bit redisagned from captured Soviet F-22. Around 550 were upgraded as Paks. Another 900 barrels were upgraded and later used in Marders II and III.

[MattII]

Canada produced nearly twice as many non tank military vehicles as Germany, Italy, and Japan combined, more tanks than Japan and Italy combined, more aircraft than Italy, and twice as much artillery than italy and Japan combined. On economic terms alone, Canada was worth more to Britain than Italy was worth to Germany, by far.Maybe I should have made it clearer that I was pointing out the limits of Australia's industry.

[Remicas]

The only slight hope to end WW2 after the fall of France would be Hitler suffering a stroke or heart attack and dying from it in June 1940 and some saner heads coming to power in Germany and making the following offer:

Retreat from France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark and Norway. All those countries keep their colonies. Alsace-Lorraine falls under german administration for 15 years, thereafter a plebiscite is to be held there to determine whether the population wants to stay german or become french once again. In might be a smart idea to hold 2 seperate plebiscites for Alsace and Lorraine respectively, where Alsace would most likely prefer staying german and Lorraine to be returned to France.

And even that might not be enough, as there still would be demands that Germany retreats from Poland as well. But there, Germany could play the card that they are willing to do so if only the USSR would do it as well, knowing, that Stalin will never accept.

In 1940 june 22th armistice between France and Germany, France is supposed to keep Alsace-Moselle. Hitler just grab it anyway, proving once more you can't trust him. By the way I don't think a plebiscite in Alsace will work to well to Germany eiter, the Alsacian drafted into the Wermacht didn't called themself "Malgré-nous" (despite us) for nothing.

[Deckhand]

Maybe I should have made it clearer that I was pointing out the limits of Australia's industry.


Sorry, sloppy reading.

[Cook]

In 1940 june 22th armistice between France and Germany, France is supposed to keep Alsace-Moselle. Hitler just grab it anyway...
You are mistaken, the armistice agreement made no mention of permanent territorial changes and likewise made no guarantee as far as French territory was concerned. The full text of the armistice is here:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/frgearm.asp (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/frgearm.asp)

[BELFAST]

Okay this is my first post
I just wanted some opinions on this idea


The year is July 17, 1940

After the Battle of France Germany offers peace terms to the Allies in exchange for former German colonies and them officially recognizing Germany's control over Poland

In exchange they will pull all forces out of Luxembourg Netherlands Belgium and France and cease all hostilities with the nations.

So how you think it would play out

And if you can Think of a counteroffer to their proposal please post it

I think this was offered by the Germans at the time.
The British were not interested.