ALT: What's the Plan?

[Psychomeltdown]

I guess I'll just make this a thread, since a lot of our plans are buried in different threads. We need to make a plan of what we've going to do as a group, not just the people in small sub groups, doctors, farmer,s herders, military, etc.



We've got at least 1,250,000 lbs of equipment that need hauling from Spot A (ian's Apartment) to Spot B (Ianopolis).

We also have at least

320 horses
70 donkeys
70 oxen
70 cattle
45 dairy cows
20 llamas
300 Pigs
250 Sheep
80 Goats
64 Dogs

in animals.


Moving Proposal A

1. We catalogue and know what we've all brought. We take inventory.

2. Then we fortify Ian's Apartment, if its coming with us.

3. We store the things we don't really necessarily need right now there.

4. Then we pack up most of the horses, donkeys, oxen, and whatever else can carry weight and head northward with 1000 men and women to begin building the storage facilities, clearing land, etc for the first settlement. This will be a rough living type deal, tents and the basics only. Save poundage for tools and weapons.

5. When near completion of Ianopolis' Storage areas, Fort Ian's Apartment is dismantled, I mean it's a wealth of stuff, from wires, pipes, etc. We'll need all of it come later.

6. All the remaining women, children, and animals get shifted over to Ianopolis and begin their new luxurious lives there.


Unfortunately I think the move will take at least two months.

1 week getting organized.
1 week traveling there.
2 weeks possibly haggling with the locals and making agreements.
1 weeks of frantic building (getting storerooms up first).
3 weeks for the Fort Ian people to move from their location to the new location.

[Soyuz]

Moving Proposal A

1. We catalogue and know what we've all brought. We take inventory.
Good, but who's doing it, and who's insuring that it's accurate and that people aren't holding vital supplies back?

2. Then we fortify Ian's Apartment, if its coming with us.
?

3. We store the things we don't really necessarily need right now there.
That's horrible. Maybe you are all super macho men that can sleep during winter in the rain for months, but there are at least women and children. Those apartments are the only thing close to civilization, and you're using them to store supplies??? Are supplies more important than people?

4. Then we pack up most of the horses, donkeys, oxen, and whatever else can carry weight and head northward with 1000 men and women to begin building the storage facilities, clearing land, etc for the first settlement. This will be a rough living type deal, tents and the basics only. Save poundage for tools and weapons.
Ok, but it would be easier to do the other way around - stay near Ian's house right now, live there, store everything nearby, and then concentrate on building permanent houses on our final site?

5. When near completion of Ianopolis' Storage areas, Fort Ian's Apartment is dismantled, I mean it's a wealth of stuff, from wires, pipes, etc. We'll need all of it come later.
Hm... can't we just find a way to use a perfectly good building instead of destroying it? You can always take out wires et all without destroying it.

6. All the remaining women, children, and animals get shifted over to Ianopolis and begin their new luxurious lives there.
Right, lol.

Unfortunately I think the move will take at least two months.

1 week getting organized.
Maybe a bit less...
1 week traveling there.
Really it's that far? How many km/miles? Days on foot?
2 weeks possibly haggling with the locals and making agreements.
*Fires a warning shot in the air* 2 weeks shortened to 2 minutes.
1 weeks of frantic building (getting storerooms up first).
:eek: :eek: :eek: Well, depending on what we're building... But 1 week for 2 people to build themselves a house? Won't we have to be working in the fields sometime? And doint all those other important things?
3 weeks for the Fort Ian people to move from their location to the new location.
Hm

Indigenous People Contact

There may be contact with indigenous peoples. For the RP I say we take Stirling's ISOT approach. We find a sick and near dying person, we heal them, using precious medicines, and we take him back to his people. They are grateful, we've had a person see first hand we're not savage of ready to kill, and we've at least learn a bit of the local dialect.
That's a terrible idea. We'll be needing a huge amount of simple, unskilled labor for months. We can even pay then if you want.

[Ward]

I hate to say it but we are going to have to build more wagons to load stuff on . We have a lot of heavy iteams to move . That can not be moved by hand .

We might want to send an advance party ahead with younger men to start building warehouses and some shelters and plant some fields .

As we at the main camp build some wagons . So we have some crops ready when we get there .

I hope every one put ther stuff at less in plastic bags to ship it in . At less Every thing i brought is in plastic .

[Darkest]

Keep Ian's Apartment as a village/colony, at least for a little while. We shouldn't dismantle it immediately, we don't even need wires and pipes and such.

Let's move as soon as we can, leave a contingent at Ian's Apartment with the stuff we don't need to bring. They can try to forage, hunt, and try to deal with the natives while they are there. Maybe even plant crops.

After the first harvest, then we'll do some dismantling. However, our biggest thing right now is to get land cleared away and start planting. We don't need pipes/wires/wood from Ian's Apartment right now.

[pisces74]

Pardon me for being dimwitted, but sholdn't we just keep in the landing zone, and then range into new lands as time wears on?

[Scarecrow]

Pardon me for being dimwitted, but sholdn't we just keep in the landing zone, and then range into new lands as time wears on?
i agree. where has this idea to go somewhere else com from?:confused:

[Forum Lurker]

Because the initial area isn't suited for long-term habitation, at least if that habitation involves sedentary agriculture and limited industry.

[Bulgaroktonos]

This is why I, Glenn, MBarry, and Co. sent out the initial expedition. For now, sit tight, and we'll figure things out. These may be decent quarters to set up our winter quarters and first season settlements, or they may not. We've got top men working on it.

We should know what to do after a few days. Until then, I say we sit tight, get acquainted, and eat what food we brought. We've got wood, and hopefully some extra food for those who were foolish enough not to bring any.

[Flocculencio]

Really it's that far? How many km/miles? Days on foot?


It's around 46 miles from Berkeley (proposed site for Ianopolis due to it's central location in the most salubrious part of the Bay Area) to San Jose (Ian's Apartment) as the crow flies. Figure maybe roughly doubling that to get the easiest route for wagons, pack animals and people on foot and we get, say, 80 miles. It'l porbably take around a week since we won't want to overwork the horses.

[jolo]

An advance party can go there, scout the area, buy the land, and return within 3 days. A few people can stay there to start clearing the city grounds. Until then, most of the wagons and carts should be assembled by the others.

The 3 days are also good to help build up the first settlement, as most people won't have much to do.

Also, it's a good time to teach each other survival and manufacturing skills.

There should be opportunities to establish contact with the natives - hopefully learning some of their language and teaching some of our language. Some of the natives might join the trek to work as scouts and translators.

The advance team would start on day 2 and return on day 4. The main trek would start on day 5, with half their equipment and 75% of their people.

After 2 or 3 weeks, the rest of the people and their equipment follows.

[Dave Howery]

looking at that map that someone posted on another thread, our initial area does have access to two rivers... wouldn't that be good for irrigation and mills? Wherever we decide to settle, we need access to rivers for those two purposes...

[Hendryk]

1. We catalogue and know what we've all brought. We take inventory.
I can handle that, along with any other volunteer. But the stuff can't just stay out in the open, much of it would be damaged by the rain, and we don't know at this point whether someone won't try to pilfer. We're going to have to protect it; what are the biggest tents we have?

[Flocculencio]

looking at that map that someone posted on another thread, our initial area does have access to two rivers... wouldn't that be good for irrigation and mills? Wherever we decide to settle, we need access to rivers for those two purposes...

Well there are quite a few rivers in the Northern Bay around the proposed site of Ianopolis and from there it's only 20 miles or so north to the Sacramento River and the Napa Valley which, in the long run (say ten or so years after we've got an agriculture base up and running around Ianopolis) is probably going to be our agricultural breadbasket.

[Gerard-ABC]

I brought several rolls of those black bin bags... can be opened out to keep the rain off piles of stuff, and they're light / easy to fold / store in a pocket.

Maybe use some of that nylon thread to rig up a tent, with those bags. Should be enough to keep rain off supplies.

Also got plastic carrier bags, for food that we collect, berries, fruit, veg, so that we can hang it off the ground, from tree branches, away from the wildlife.

[jolo]

darn - i forgot bags - but I packed everything watertight.

[Psychomeltdown]

That's horrible. Maybe you are all super macho men that can sleep during winter in the rain for months, but there are at least women and children. Those apartments are the only thing close to civilization, and you're using them to store supplies??? Are supplies more important than people?

The reason I suggested Ian's apartment as a storage facility is that it's a sealed place. Little if no water will be entering it. We can't say that about the tents.

If it's only Ian's apartment, then it'll be at the smallest about 1000 sq feet. We can't pack a large amount of people in there anyway, so why not use it to hold what we can't survive without. Food and seeds? If those get wet, then they become useless very fast. WE need to keep it dry and safe.

Not to sound harsh or cold, but we can sacrifice people, we can't lose those seeds.

*Fires a warning shot in the air* 2 weeks shortened to 2 minutes.Putting the fear of what we can do into them will only work in the short time. We're looking for a long term settlement and that means dealing with the locals. If we begin our relationship with them on a aggressive note, then we'll be looking over our shoulders for the next few years.

We need peace and quiet, we need all our man power to make our storage areas, clear land, make things so that we can survive, not guarding and patrolling and constantly looking over their shoulders in case of an attack.

Well, depending on what we're building... But 1 week for 2 people to build themselves a house? Won't we have to be working in the fields sometime? And doint all those other important things?By the frantic building comment, I meant that they'd be getting the storerooms up, making sure they're not leaking and making sure they're good and solid. Along with getting the animal pens ready and possibly a main cooking house. Homes aren't going to be built until we clear the fields and get the seeds into the ground. They're the most important thing and all our energy will be going to making sure that happens. Until then we're going to be "roughing" it.



I think if we have a few or more carpenters or woodworkers we can make a basic cart, solid wooden wheels and wooden axle. It doesn't have to be good, only strong enough to last the trip to the Main Settlement Area.

[Grimm Reaper]

Alternately we just inform luakel of our high expectations of him as a draft beast.:p

I believe we have Ian's entire apartment building, not just one apartment.

I led a group(anyone?) to find a solid site for long-term settlement, so in the interim temporary shelters are called for.

[Flocculencio]

Alternately we just inform luakel of our high expectations of him as a draft beast.:p

Heheheh...

http://www.shinvision.com/nodwick/pict/chara_nodwick.jpg

[Psychomeltdown]

I believe we have Ian's entire apartment building, not just one apartment.
Good. Then we can put all our food in there and all our sensitive equipment.

[Othniel]

Until I'm settled my stuff has to stay with me, after a point I'll give up what is needed to the community. Right now I need my Beefalo to pull my cart, the same with the food I carried with me. I'll share with anybody near me, or how needs it, but it will be near me. How do I know when I'll need that food again? I'm travelling for a little less than a week or more, and we'll need that for energy.

[Matt]

Alternately we just inform luakel of our high expectations of him as a draft beast.:p

I believe we have Ian's entire apartment building, not just one apartment.

I led a group(anyone?) to find a solid site for long-term settlement, so in the interim temporary shelters are called for.


Right now the Rangers are on a scouting mission of the immidiate area. We've headed north to the Bay near San Jose, where we established first contact. That's going to cut our mission short, 4 of the Rangers well head back and report to the authorities(Glen or Ward I suppose) while me and Flocc stay behind.

In a couple weeks the plan is to scout out as far north as Berkely, but we're inexperenced in the saddle for such a long trip. Hence the shorter mission to gain experence.

[Grimm Reaper]

MBarry offers yet another reason why we need to start building ships. So much easier to travel on water than on land.

[Psychomeltdown]

The Great Hunt

Proposed by Psychomeltdown, Herder


We have 3055 people in our Community, though 272 are planning on settling in Ian's Apartment, they will be counted in this.

3055 mouths to feed.
7000 lbs of food daily consumed.

so far 2 days have gone by, that's 14000 lbs consumed.

We at the least got about another 30 days of food and if we don't do anything quickly, we'll be looking at starvation. We've got a limited supply of food. We've got a huge number of mouths to feed. We've also got a large number of men and women who aren't really doing anything., and we're still waiting for word from the Scouts.

Therefore while we wait, I suggest that we begin putting our large numbers and large amounts of weaponry to use, while we can.

The plan I'm proposing is simple.

1. Beaters
2. Shooters
3. Rear Logistics

BEATERS
We take a large group of armed men and women, preferably those that can shoot straight and kill what they're aiming at, into the woods. They begin making a hell of a lot of noise and begin driving everything before them, toward Ian's Apartment.

The reason for experienced hunters/shooters is that we'll probably be facing some predators that'll prefer to turn on the Beaters, therefore they'll need to be able to shoot to kill.

SHOOTERS
Everyone who's got a gun, 30-06 or whatever, will be sitting in a fenced off clearing. The fences will prevent the quick escape of animals when they see the large number of armed people before them.

The Shooters job is basic, they shoot anything that comes out of the woods. Simple mass killing.

REAR LOGISTICS
Since we lack salt, the only option for long term preserving of meats is through smoking/drying. Therefore we'll need a large number of fires going and a large number of people to tend them.

We'll need every wagon, cart, travois pole we can get our hands on. We'll be needing plenty of teamsters.

We'll need water haulers, butchering takes a lot of water, for cleaning.

We'll need a continuous supply of firewood.

Along with every person that knows how to butcher.


Numbers Breakdown
150 to guard the camp, herds, supplies
350 to keep the fires going, to prepare for the incoming meat
100 teamsters, to haul the meat
500 shooters, under strict supervision
200 beaters, working in teams of three

Shooters and Beaters can revert to Butcherers when all the animals have been killed. Once the animals are all dead, we can also tear down the fencing and use it to haul/smoke the meat we get.


At the least I figure we'll be able to get 2 weeks of food, that's still about 107000 lbs of meat. What I'm hoping for is at least one month's supply of food, 220000 lbs of food.



We'll be needing A LOT of wood. For fires, for fencing, for carrying the meat, everything. So Norbert's got to pull in all the excess laborers and begin tearing down trees and begin making rough fences and piling up the fire wood.

We're also going to need a lot of hot water and more storage rooms.

I'm thinking if we get going we can prepare in about 3 days and take at least 2 days to clear up the mess we've made, and another 4 days to completely smoke all the meat we've got.

1 week of work for at least a month of food...

[Gerard-ABC]

Pyscho,
Some good ideas there.

It's a lot of work, but we *should* get a lot of meat from it.

It might be an idea to break it down into several smaller operations though - not all the animals coming in from one direction. No point in there being more cornered animals running round in one place than we can deal with.
Also split it up into maybe 6 or 8 sessions, 6 hours each.

When peopple get tired, mistakes are made, and with guns can be fatal. I'm also worried that too many people could start shooting, the docs will be working hard with the accidents.

I don't know enough about how to prepare meat to comment on the other preparations, but I've got some containers of salt. Only 20 or 30 pounds in weight though. Salted or smoked meat is fine with me. I've been known to add lots of salt to my food in the past, and prefer smoked bacon to plain.

There won't be a shortage of wood. I'm working with 2 NPCs on making wagons / carts. Norbert may have some more ideas on that.

I think that it may take a week until we're all ready to do all this food work.

It takes time to construct the carts / wagons. MBarry and Ward and Glen will also want to be sure that more people are training on weapons safety. And on knife safety too, considering all the meat that's to be chopped up.


Regards,
Gerard

[Ward]

Pyscho,
Some good ideas there.

It's a lot of work, but we *should* get a lot of meat from it.

It might be an idea to break it down into several smaller operations though - not all the animals coming in from one direction. No point in there being more cornered animals running round in one place than we can deal with.
Also split it up into maybe 6 or 8 sessions, 6 hours each.

When peopple get tired, mistakes are made, and with guns can be fatal. I'm also worried that too many people could start shooting, the docs will be working hard with the accidents.

I don't know enough about how to prepare meat to comment on the other preparations, but I've got some containers of salt. Only 20 or 30 pounds in weight though. Salted or smoked meat is fine with me. I've been known to add lots of salt to my food in the past, and prefer smoked bacon to plain.

There won't be a shortage of wood. I'm working with 2 NPCs on making wagons / carts. Norbert may have some more ideas on that.

I think that it may take a week until we're all ready to do all this food work.

It takes time to construct the carts / wagons. MBarry and Ward and Glen will also want to be sure that more people are training on weapons safety. And on knife safety too, considering all the meat that's to be chopped up.


Regards,
Gerard


I have 20 lbs of jerking spices and the wife and I have made jerky before .

Some one most of broght a smoker

[Norbert]

Woodcutter Proposal:
Day 3: Cut for half a day, and work on less strenuous activities.
Day 4 until Day of the Hunt: Work hard bringing in as much wood as possible.
Day after hunt: Evaluate the amount of wood on hand, maintain a supply to keep the fires going.

Those keeping an eye on the smoking process should be divided into three or preferably four groups, and work in shifts. Ward, and any others experienced in tanning should work teaching as many as possible how to tan. A lot of hides will be partially ruined from inexperience, but it will be a start on a stock of leather to be used for clothing in the future, as well as for other things.

On the shooting, the best shots should concentrate on the more dangerous animals, ie the predators, first, and then on the other animals. Divide the shooter into teams of four, with each team being given a specfic area to fire into in the kill zone. Give each in the team of four 1 extra rifle each, with two or three extra people to reload weapons. Use the best shots for the killers.

Before the kill day, the woodcutters will fell and trim trees into baricades to have the people behind.

[Doctor What]

Anybody have a rough idea what kind of critters there will be and roughly how many?

[Ghost 88]

Warning one of those predators is likely to be GRIZ. We must always be very respectful of MR GRIZ as before the European and his gun came MR GRIZ was the TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN! He could easily run 1200 to1500 lbs:eek:
When I was taught about him while stationed in Alaska I was reminded of the scene in Blazing Saddles where Mongo(Alex Karras) had come to town and the deputy told the sheriff not to shoot him cuase it "just make him mad". This is the only reason I brought the Barret 50 cal Sniper Rifles (4+1000 rnds) that are available to our best shooters. Would not expect more than one in immediate area,but truthfully in less you get a HEART shot a 30.06 is just going to piss him off.
Range safety is going to be a bitch,but I'm sure we can work that out. Might not need as many shooters as proposed???

Griz's Prayer
Ye though I walk thru the Valley of the Shadow of Death
I shall fear no evil



Cause I am the Meanest SOB in the valley:)

[Ward]

Anybody have a rough idea what kind of critters there will be and roughly how many?
How about some Elves, a dragon or two , and some centaurs:p

[Norbert]

Anybody have a rough idea what kind of critters there will be and roughly how many?

Lions & Tigers & Bears! (Oh My!)

But really: Deer, Elk, Bears, Maybe a Mountain Lion or two, Rabbits, Ground Squirrels, a family of skunks, porcupine, maybe a Ground Sloth or two, Racoons, Turkeys, Pheasent, Grouse, Snakes. Stuff like that.

I would suggest whoever is going to roll them up to use these dice:
Deer: 12D6
Elk: 5D6
Bears: 3D6
Mountain Lions: 1D6-2
Rabbits: 6D6x10
Ground Squirrels: 4D6x8
Skunks: 2D6
Porcupine: 4D6
Ground Sloth: 1D6-2
Racoons: 4D6
Turkeys: 3D6
Pheasent: 4D6
Grouse: 4D6
Snakes: 3D6
Wolves: 4D6
Forest Bison: 3D6

[DominusNovus]

Anyone consider the possibilities that there might be a herd of, well, something in the general area?

[Norbert]

I saw a couple of photos last year on a Mr GRIZ shot in Alaska. Its Front paws were over a foot wide. He shot it, emptied his rifle into it, and barely escaped it before it dropped. Biggest bear shot on record. AAnd he couldn't keep it (he was a forest ranger). Unfortunatly for him at the time he had a lighter calibre suited for deer (which he was hunting). Claws about six inches long, and the TEETH!! (Look at the Bones!!!)

[Psychomeltdown]

Refining the Plan

Okay,

Come up with a good suggestion, instead of using one massive place to slaughter the animals we can probably break it down into four smaller areas of about 125 shooters and 100 beaters each. On continued thinking on it, one massive kill area will only make it so that the animals coming up behind will begin panicking like hell when they hear all the noise and smell all the blood.

DAY ONE
Section A and Section B will be going.

Section A will be to the Far South,
125 shooters in teams of five, three shooters, two reloaders.
100 beaters, teams of four, 1 gunner, 3 noise makers

Section B North of Section A
125 shooters in teams of five, three shooters, two reloaders, 25 independent shooters taking care of the Big Game, grizzlies etc.
100 beaters, teams of four, 1 gunner, 3 noise makers

Section A will go in the early morning, meaning at sunrise the Beaters will begin marching into the woods and the Shooters will begin setting up. Section B Beaters will also go, but not move until noon, setting up at the Section B area in the woods.

A Beaters begin moving Ian Apartmentward about 10 am, pushing everything before them.

Kill Zone A will begin preparing using the basics of the original Plan. Shooters will line up on one side of the fencing, northern side, due to safety reasons. Shooters begin opening up when the first animals begin crossing the Shoot Line, shooting only in ONE DIRECTION, while the independent shooters take care of the big stuff and the Beaters move into positions to support the Shooters.

Once all animals are killed and the signal goes up, Section B Shooter begin moving into positions at Section B Kill Zone. They'll be occupying the souther side of the Fences. Beaters will begin moving Ian Apartmentward again and chasing game.

Section A Beaters and Shooters will begin butchering the game they've killed, separating the meats and piling the offal to be fed to the pigs.

Teamsters and extra Butchers begin moving into position bringing water and storage containers to pack up the meat in the wagons. They'll begin shipping it to Camp and there the Smokers will begin the process of smoking the meat. We'll need a large clear area and plenty of firewood.

about noon or 1 pm, Section B should begin shooting away at the game they've captured. Pretty much everything happens the same as in Section A. We'll probably need to post some shooters about Section A just in case some game escapes southward from Section B.

The hope is to clear Section A and Section B of any killed game before sunset. That means double timing it over to Section Band helping in the butchering also.


DAY TWO

The same thing again as Day One, with Section C and Section D, basically recycled Shooters and Beaters from the day before. We'll probably need to add more to each group, due to injuries, hurts, etc, that may be suffered from the frantic pace of the day before. Expect high knife inflicted wounds, accidents and possibly a shooting or two, hopefully none.

Section C in the morning, north of Section B.

Section D in the afternoon, Far North.



In the End

300 Shooters
250 Beaters
200 Teamsters
100 Extra Butcherers
300 Smokers
100 Camp Helpers
100 Camp Guardians
200 Misc. Tasks

This'll probably take all the man power we have, but split over two days, it shouldn't be so exhausting as in one day.

I suspect the meat will have to be all processed and smoked by at least three days, before they begin to spoil.

[SionEwig]

Warning one of those predators is likely to be GRIZ. We must always be very respectful of MR GRIZ as before the European and his gun came MR GRIZ was the TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN! He could easily run 1200 to1500 lbs:eek:
When I was taught about him while stationed in Alaska I was reminded of the scene in Blazing Saddles where Mongo(Alex Karras) had come to town and the deputy told the sheriff not to shoot him cuase it "just make him mad". This is the only reason I brought the Barret 50 cal Sniper Rifles (4+1000 rnds) that are available to our best shooters. Would not expect more than one in immediate area,but truthfully in less you get a HEART shot a 30.06 is just going to piss him off.
Range safety is going to be a bitch,but I'm sure we can work that out. Might not need as many shooters as proposed???


Yeah, the range safety is what is making me leary of this but like you say, it can probably be be worked out. One thing that would be better is if we make the most use of the Hawkins that many brought and use as little of the modern ammunition as possible. Since I will still probably be out on the scouting trip I will miss out on it but put my wife down for having one of your Barrets as a backup (if you don't mind).

Still overall a good idea and probably necessary now, not later.

[Ward]

Yeah, the range safety is what is making me leary of this but like you say, it can probably be be worked out. One thing that would be better is if we make the most use of the Hawkins that many brought and use as little of the modern ammunition as possible. Since I will still probably be out on the scouting trip I will miss out on it but put my wife down for having one of your Barrets as a backup (if you don't mind).

Still overall a good idea and probably necessary now, not later.


I hate to say it but before any one become a shooter they will have to show me that they know weapon safety and can hit a 6 in target 8 out of 10 times at 200 yards .

[SionEwig]

Refining the Plan

Okay,

Come up with a good suggestion, instead of using one massive place to slaughter the animals we can probably break it down into four smaller areas of about 125 shooters and 100 beaters each. On continued thinking on it, one massive kill area will only make it so that the animals coming up behind will begin panicking like hell when they hear all the noise and smell all the blood.

DAY ONE
Section A and Section B will be going.

Section A will be to the Far South,
125 shooters in teams of five, three shooters, two reloaders.
100 beaters, teams of four, 1 gunner, 3 noise makers

Section B North of Section A
125 shooters in teams of five, three shooters, two reloaders, 25 independent shooters taking care of the Big Game, grizzlies etc.
100 beaters, teams of four, 1 gunner, 3 noise makers

Section A will go in the early morning, meaning at sunrise the Beaters will begin marching into the woods and the Shooters will begin setting up. Section B Beaters will also go, but not move until noon, setting up at the Section B area in the woods.

A Beaters begin moving Ian Apartmentward about 10 am, pushing everything before them.

Kill Zone A will begin preparing using the basics of the original Plan. Shooters will line up on one side of the fencing, northern side, due to safety reasons. Shooters begin opening up when the first animals begin crossing the Shoot Line, shooting only in ONE DIRECTION, while the independent shooters take care of the big stuff and the Beaters move into positions to support the Shooters.

Once all animals are killed and the signal goes up, Section B Shooter begin moving into positions at Section B Kill Zone. They'll be occupying the souther side of the Fences. Beaters will begin moving Ian Apartmentward again and chasing game.

Section A Beaters and Shooters will begin butchering the game they've killed, separating the meats and piling the offal to be fed to the pigs.

Teamsters and extra Butchers begin moving into position bringing water and storage containers to pack up the meat in the wagons. They'll begin shipping it to Camp and there the Smokers will begin the process of smoking the meat. We'll need a large clear area and plenty of firewood.

about noon or 1 pm, Section B should begin shooting away at the game they've captured. Pretty much everything happens the same as in Section A. We'll probably need to post some shooters about Section A just in case some game escapes southward from Section B.

The hope is to clear Section A and Section B of any killed game before sunset. That means double timing it over to Section Band helping in the butchering also.


DAY TWO

The same thing again as Day One, with Section C and Section D, basically recycled Shooters and Beaters from the day before. We'll probably need to add more to each group, due to injuries, hurts, etc, that may be suffered from the frantic pace of the day before. Expect high knife inflicted wounds, accidents and possibly a shooting or two, hopefully none.

Section C in the morning, north of Section B.

Section D in the afternoon, Far North.



In the End

300 Shooters
250 Beaters
200 Teamsters
100 Extra Butcherers
300 Smokers
100 Camp Helpers
100 Camp Guardians
200 Misc. Tasks

This'll probably take all the man power we have, but split over two days, it shouldn't be so exhausting as in one day.

I suspect the meat will have to be all processed and smoked by at least three days, before they begin to spoil.

Better, but do we have 300 competent shooters, and I do mean people who are well qualified with their weapons, most especially the 25 people to handle the big game (and weapons that can handle them). Still good thinking here.

[SionEwig]

I hate to say it but before any one become a shooter they will have to show me that they know weapon safety and can hit a 6 in target 8 out of 10 times at 200 yards .

Jeez, is that all. My 6 year old can x ring at 200 yards.

[Ward]

Jeez, is that all. My 6 year old can x ring at 200 yards.


Yes but we have a lot of city folk who have never shoot a weapon before.

I left my big rifle at home it weighs two much at 18 lbs un loaded .

Its a custom made rifle fires a wildcat .357 down from a .50 cal

[Psychomeltdown]

Better, but do we have 300 competent shooters, and I do mean people who are well qualified with their weapons, most especially the 25 people to handle the big game (and weapons that can handle them). Still good thinking here.
Although it would be good to have competent shooters, we're kind of in a time crunch here so passable shooters will do. Hell, people who can aim and pull the trigger will do.

Though Weapon M and the others are going to have to hammer in a little gun safety into their noggins before they begin.

Shooters 300
it's actually
50 independent shooters
150 shooters
100 reloaders

Beaters 250
We'll need about 75 competent shooters.

Yeah, about 300 shooters overall. Figure we can scrounge that up? out of 1700ish grown adults.

[Norbert]

For the Wagons to be loaded with meat: Use the space blankets i brought to line the bottoms. They are the easiest thing we have to wash off. DO NOT USE Plastic Bags for this!!! They are much to valuable to get torn up and lost forever!

Driving Teams do Not move in a straight line. Use a shallow curve with the ends pointing the direction of the drive. Firing teams shold have One or two heavier calibre weapons (.30-06) with a Light Calibre (.22). Light calibre is Only for firing at small game (house cat/small dog size). That way we do not use as much heavier ammo wasted on the small stuff.

We should not drive directly towards the camp! To much possibility of something getting through and injuring some innocent bystander. Plan the drive down a shallow valley, heading down hill. It is much easier to control the drive. The Bottom of the valley should come into a large clearing with trees brought down blocking the escape routes. The trees can be cut up and used as fuel afterwards.

Your idea of driving the four seperate areas sounds like a good idea, but won't work like you expect. After the first drive, with all the racket, anything else will leave the area for a couple of miles around (Post-Haste, I might add). A drive like this will only work once, and a succeeding drive in anything less than a week or three will net you only 10% of the game. It needs to be all or nothing now.

[Norbert]

I'll be one of your shooters. I've handled a variety of weapons from .22 on up. I also learned how to shoot by placing a bullet about six inches from the nose or tail of cats and dogs to spray dirt up into the animal to scare them away, without ever hitting the animal. Also I have hunted (though I do not anymore) and know where to shoot quadrupeds to kill and not ruin meat by hitting the intestines and stomach (which will ruin the surrounding meat. I have also been on deer drives before.

[SionEwig]

Yes but we have a lot of city folk who have never shoot a weapon before.

I left my big rifle at home it weighs two much at 18 lbs un loaded .

Its a custom made rifle fires a wildcat .357 down from a .50 cal

Sorry, I keep forgetting how many people there are out there who have never even toughed a firearm.

We also left other nice weapons back (not to mention ammunition). Even so the 2 heavy rifles we brought are over 12 lbs each unloaded. My wife's Springfield 1903 Type B and my custom made Remington No.3.

Your's sounds like a sweet shooter and heavy hitter.

[Norbert]

Hey Ward! Tell him of the scope you had on it and shooting the Mountain Sheep!

[Psychomeltdown]

Your idea of driving the four seperate areas sounds like a good idea, but won't work like you expect. After the first drive, with all the racket, anything else will leave the area for a couple of miles around (Post-Haste, I might add). A drive like this will only work once, and a succeeding drive in anything less than a week or three will net you only 10% of the game. It needs to be all or nothing now.
Yeah, most likely it'll fail if we do it in four. What about two? one in the Far Bottom and the other in the Top? Couple of miles apart, whatever game escapes the beaters moves Top and we push them toward the kill zone.

We could probably get enough game in staggered chasings, but expect Section B to be less than Section A...

Probably add more shooters to A then...

[SionEwig]

Yeah, most likely it'll fail if we do it in four. What about two? one in the Far Bottom and the other in the Top? Couple of miles apart, whatever game escapes the beaters moves Top and we push them toward the kill zone.

We could probably get enough game in staggered chasings, but expect Section B to be less than Section A...

Probably add more shooters to A then...

Yeah, that'll work.

[Doctor What]

Lions & Tigers & Bears! (Oh My!)

But really: Deer, Elk, Bears, Maybe a Mountain Lion or two, Rabbits, Ground Squirrels, a family of skunks, porcupine, maybe a Ground Sloth or two, Racoons, Turkeys, Pheasent, Grouse, Snakes. Stuff like that.

Weren't Ground Sloths pretty much extinct by 10,000 BC? :confused:

Rest of that list looks good

Mmmmmmm...pheasant......

[Norbert]

Use the terrain. Starting high and working down. Animals will follow the easiest path. Though a drive down two valleys might work, the ridge in between would muffle the noises from the other valley. And if the two valleys join into one with the same kill zone, it would be easier to set up, and if beaters from group A block valley A so the animals can't go up it, they will go into the kill zone, even though it smells of death. And if animals from drive A go up valley B, they will be turned around and still end up in the kill zone. So, drive a would net 40% of the kill, and B 60%, or therabouts.

Double the numbers of what I put up before.

[Norbert]

Weren't Ground Sloths pretty much extinct by 10,000 BC? :confused:

Rest of that list looks good

Mmmmmmm...pheasant......


Were they? I have read unsubstniated reports of elephant like creaturs seen by early pioneers, and even around 1800, the first Amerinds who saw the first elephants were not shocked by the sight, they had tales of ancestors in their tribes hunting shaggy ones.

[Ward]

Sorry, I keep forgetting how many people there are out there who have never even toughed a firearm.

We also left other nice weapons back (not to mention ammunition). Even so the 2 heavy rifles we brought are over 12 lbs each unloaded. My wife's Springfield 1903 Type B and my custom made Remington No.3.

Your's sounds like a sweet shooter and heavy hitter.



Yes it is I had it built in Aust. back in the late 60 for 170 Aust dollors .
I used it in Nam . I think you can figure what I used it for .
But I took 4 Springfields 1903 star series with the scope on them .
And match grade rounds .Hay If those ASB are willing to give them to us why not take it . Did you and the wife take a side arm if not I have extra . Rugger .357 blackhawks the two of you can use . yes they are single action but they are back up . The rounds I brought with them are nasty ask Norbert to tell you about them . He can spell I can't any more since I have a few mild storkes .

[Ghost 88]

I saw a couple of photos last year on a Mr GRIZ shot in Alaska. Its Front paws were over a foot wide. He shot it, emptied his rifle into it, and barely escaped it before it dropped. Biggest bear shot on record. AAnd he couldn't keep it (he was a forest ranger). Unfortunatly for him at the time he had a lighter calibre suited for deer (which he was hunting). Claws about six inches long, and the TEETH!! (Look at the Bones!!!)

That is exactly why I brung the portable cannons:D I was told one of the problems with all Bears is that if you don't heart or brain shoot them(and they have extremly thick skulls) is thier heart beat is about 17 beats per minute so they are very slow to fall due to blood loss. Therefore big gun massive damage extremly large and destuctive animal brought down quicker. Mr Griz can out run a horse for short distances:eek:

[Darkest]

Ground Sloths are dying out in the Americas, they will be very rare on the Northern American continent. However, there is a good chance that there might be a small population in the Great Plains, with a good deal more situated on the islands in the Caribbean, and southern South America.

I think the Great Hunt is a Great Idea, and I say we go for Psycho's idea with all haste.

[Norbert]

That is exactly why I brung the portable cannons:D I was told one of the problems with all Bears is that if you don't heart or brain shoot them(and they have extremly thick skulls) is thier heart beat is about 17 beats per minute so they are very slow to fall due to blood loss. Therefore big gun massive damage extremly large and destuctive animal brought down quicker. Mr Griz can out run a horse for short distances:eek:

I've heard about them outrunning horses, and I have seen their skulls. Unless you get lucky on a head shot by getting it through the mouth or eye, body shots would be the best bet. Otherwise, Good-Night Sweet Prince, I hope you have a better afterlife!

[Ghost 88]

all kidding aside they b sum scary thins out there.

[Doctor What]

Ground Sloths are dying out in the Americas, they will be very rare on the Northern American continent. However, there is a good chance that there might be a small population in the Great Plains, with a good deal more situated on the islands in the Caribbean, and southern South America.

So--there really will be a few 'dragons' out there... :p

[Othniel]

So--there really will be a few 'dragons' out there... :p
Well Pyscho could tell you of the Gillia Monsters they have...dragon enough for me.

[Dave Howery]

no pheasants... native to Asia, introduced to the Americas by whites...
I don't think there are any ground sloths in CA at this time.. there is one small one in the Carribean, and possibly some in Patagonia, but I think the NA ones are gone by this time...
Put me in with the shooters too... I hunted back in my younger days. We can put the non-shooter people in charge of herding and lumbering for a day, couldn't we? And we should probably do another great hunt after the big move...

[Dave Howery]

OK, so what day is this great hunt taking place?

[Ward]

OK, so what day is this great hunt taking place?


I belive its going to be on day four ,

[Matt]

How many of these weapons are zero'ed for the shooters? Might need some more time to do that. Even the Rangers went off half-cocked, with unzero'ed weapons.

[Psychomeltdown]

I belive its going to be on day four ,
I think we should hold on a bit.

We've got a general plan approved, but we don't got the location and the resources allocated to atempt this venture.

We need a estimation on how long it would take Norbert to bring in enough wood for

Firewood
Hide racks
Fencing
and a whole lot of other things that we don't know yet.

That's why i suggested three days for Norbert to gather a large enough body of workers and begin harvesting the trees.

3 days for preparing
2 days of processing the meats
3 days of frantic smoking and preserving of meats
a week we'll be needing.

I suggest we begin implementation starting Day 4 and by Day 7 the Great Hunt begins.

[SionEwig]

How many of these weapons are zero'ed for the shooters? Might need some more time to do that. Even the Rangers went off half-cocked, with unzero'ed weapons.

Been meaning to bring that up:rolleyes: . One of the reasons I wanted to bring my own rifle:D . Oh, well things happen, LOL.

[Matt]

Been meaning to bring that up:rolleyes: . One of the reasons I wanted to bring my own rifle:D . Oh, well things happen, LOL.

I didn't think of it until we got to the village, and now I think it's a bad idea to count of 36 yards and start shooting a tree :p

[SionEwig]

I didn't think of it until we got to the village, and now I think it's a bad idea to count of 36 yards and start shooting a tree :p

Gee, ya think:D . On the other hand, Day 3 will see 2 rifles getting sighted in after OUR encounter with the natives.

[Matt]

Gee, ya think:D . On the other hand, Day 3 will see 2 rifles getting sighted in after OUR encounter with the natives.


Snicker...

Which might explain what goes wrong...

[Flocculencio]

Gee, ya think:D . On the other hand, Day 3 will see 2 rifles getting sighted in after OUR encounter with the natives.

Ah, you're back online :D Looking forward to reading about the skirmish.

[Matt]

Ah, you're back online :D Looking forward to reading about the skirmish.


Poor Phred, he never even had a chance :p

[Psychomeltdown]

Poor Phred, he never even had a chance :p
always the but of jokes...

Guess that's the life of an NPC.

[Flocculencio]

Heheh...NPCs. The Redshirts of RPGs

[SionEwig]

Heheh...NPCs. The Redshirts of RPGs

snicker, yeah - every RPG we played in my old gaming group had the habit of naming all the non important NPCs Phred, of course we also had Sir Happy the anti-paladin and Warchief Butthead. Ah the old days.

[Psychomeltdown]

Here's an updated schematic of what I'm hoping is what we're going to do for the Great Hunt.

Since we can't get as much game if we spread it out over two days, I've pushed it back to one day.

The Basics work as what I've posted the other day.

The Kill Zone is a depression among some hilly terrain, we'll probably be able to push the game into that general direction and slaughter them.


HUNTING DAY

Section A and Section B will be going.

Section A will be to the West,
300 shooters in teams of five, three shooters, two reloaders, 50 independent shooters taking care of the Big Game, grizzlies etc.
100 beaters, teams of four, 1 gunner, 3 noise makers

Section B North of Section A
300 shooters in teams of five, three shooters, two reloaders, 50 independent shooters taking care of the Big Game, grizzlies etc.
100 beaters, teams of four, 1 gunner, 3 noise makers

Section A will go in the early morning, meaning at sunrise the Beaters will begin marching into the woods and the Shooters will begin setting up. Section B Beaters will also go, but not move until noon, setting up at the Section B area in the woods.

A Beaters begin moving Kill Zoneward about 10 am, pushing everything before them.

Kill Zone will begin preparing. Shooters will line up on one side of the fencing, northern side, due to safety reasons. Shooters begin opening up, shooting only in ONE DIRECTION, while the independent shooters take care of the big stuff and the Beaters move into positions to support the Shooters.

Once all animals are killed and the signal goes up, Section B Beaters will begin moving KIll Zoneward again and chasing game.

Section A Beaters and Shooters will begin the process of removing the dead animals, as much as can be removed before Section B game enters the Kill Zone, watchers out will inform of incoming game.

Teamsters and extra Butchers begin moving into position bringing water and storage containers to pack up the meat in the wagons. They'll begin shipping it to Camp and there the Smokers will begin the process of smoking the meat. We'll need a large clear area and plenty of firewood.

About noon or 1 pm, Section B game should enter the Eastern side of the Kill Zone. Pretty much everything happens the same as in Section A. IS will take care of any big game and head off any running away herds.

The hope is to clear the Kill Zone of any killed game before sunset, mainly to keep any missed predators from coming over for a look see. That means double timing it over to Section Band helping in the butchering also.




In the End

300 Shooters
250 Beaters
200 Teamsters
100 Extra Butcherers
300 Smokers
100 Camp Helpers
100 Camp Guardians
200 Misc. Tasks

IS= Independent Shooters





xxx

[Matt]

Um... The two shooting groups are pointing at each other.... Do it more like this

..../
../
./
|
|
|
.\
.\
....\

[Psychomeltdown]

Well I'm hoping IS A and IS B will be mounted shooters, therefore they can move about on the field and kill the big game that's more of a threat.

The center shooters will hopefully be only shooting southward, the Beaters will swing around on their flanks and join in in the mass slaughter.

Plus the Kill Zone is going to be a big depression and they'll be hopefully mostly be shooting downward into it. This'll hopefully help prevent much noise from escaping and keep the smell of blood and death from spooking the Section B Game when they're coming.

[Hendryk]

How long does smoked meat keep?
Could we salt some as well, provided we have enough salt for that?

[Norbert]

Smoked meat will keep quite a while. Salting it, though, would take a lot of salt. Once we start obtaining salt, which could be done once we are nearer to the salt water, we could think of doing salted meat, for example, bacon. Something most people do not know, is when the body gets rid of the excess salt in the system, which can take several months, they will actually have less problems from being bothered by flys and some types of mosquitos. I went on a diet for a few years using very little added salt, and while people were swatting at flys and mosquitos, I was not. I do not know if there is any study to back this up, other than my own experience.

One of the nastier flys I have encountered in Michigan, is one we call a "deer fly', which is particularly a problem in the woods. I don't remember if they extend to California, the time I was out there I was pretty much always in the desert. An example of this little buggers comes from working in the woods on the family tree farm, and at one point rubbing the back of my neck, and my hand being covered with blood, a lot of blood. If we get to the point of being bothered less by insects, the more comfortable we will be.

BTW, don't use perfume or cologne or aftershave if you are going in the woods. They really seem to attract bugs.

[Hendryk]

The logistics of the Big Hunt are going to be complex. Leaving out the construction of the smoking area, which have already been detailed, there'll be a need for chariots, and every person who participates will need supplies.

[Forum Lurker]

One small problem with the "salt it" idea: it's also a good way, in the absence of ready supplies of pure drinking water, to get dehydrated. One of the common effects of a long-term high-sodium diet is kidney stones; while the ASBs have presumably removed mine, I don't think they've actually made me immune to them, and others (particularly the elderly) will also be vulnerable. Kidney stones without any naseau or pain medication means a few days of lost work, minimum, every time they crop up.

[Dave Howery]

How many of these weapons are zero'ed for the shooters? Might need some more time to do that. Even the Rangers went off half-cocked, with unzero'ed weapons.
couldn't we just request them to be zeroed in when we ask for them? Granted, we'll have to adjust them all as time goes by...

snicker, yeah - every RPG we played in my old gaming group had the habit of naming all the non important NPCs Phred, of course we also had Sir Happy the anti-paladin and Warchief Butthead.
Yeah, in the first D&D campaigns I played in way back in the ol' college days, nobody ever wanted to play a cleric, so we had a multitude of NPC clerics all named Fred, who were apparently clones cuz they all had the same stats...

Salting it, though, would take a lot of salt.
Yeah, and I suggested that everyone should bring a 40lb. case of iodized salt and got argued at over it. OK, altogether now... "Dave was right...".... :p

[Psychomeltdown]

Possible animals

Deer:
Bears:
Mountain Lions
Rabbits:
Ground Squirrels:
Porcupine:
Racoons:
Turkeys:
Grouse:
Snakes:
Wolves:

Here are some more animals we might find : Click Me! (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/whdab/html/lifehistmammal.html)


Required Personnel

300 Shooters
250 Beaters
200 Teamsters
100 Extra Butcherers
300 Smokers
100 Camp Helpers
100 Camp Guardians
200 Misc. Tasks

[jolo]

Salting it, though, would take a lot of salt.
Yeah, and I suggested that everyone should bring a 40lb. case of iodized salt and got argued at over it. OK, altogether now... "Dave was right...".... :p

Wasn't there someone who said salt water is also useful for conserving things? Also, looking at a satellite picture of the area today, it appears to be easy enough to get salt at the bay...

[Ghost 88]

Jolo theres easy then theres easy. Went to a site on sea salt It was part of Natural Cures website showed pictures of a man made salt flat at least an acre in size they let in sea water shut the dam and let the water evaporate. later they raked up the salt looked to fill a 50 gal barrel from an area 20feet by 20 feet. bad part how deep was the pond ?how long to evaporate? and boiling seems to kill in mineral/vitamin benefit. also it would imho be cost effective to boil dont see how there can be a whole lot of salt per gallon of sea water. Bottom line is I don't know but seems to be a little bit harder than what you were thinking Personel note to you not trying to pick on you (I have corrected or questioned others)just trying to point out that what we are doing out here in 3000 BC California is not like backpacking in The 21st century. Further many things that seem simple in fact are quite difficult in reality I know you understand this at least in theory.
By the way as one of the "Rangers" could I get you not to trade the realy big knives and like till we know "they aren't going to come back and haunt us" please please please :D :D :D

[Norbert]

Jolo theres easy then theres easy. Went to a site on sea salt It was part of Natural Cures website showed pictures of a man made salt flat at least an acre in size they let in sea water shut the dam and let the water evaporate. later they raked up the salt looked to fill a 50 gal barrel from an area 20feet by 20 feet. bad part how deep was the pond ?how long to evaporate? and boiling seems to kill in mineral/vitamin benefit. also it would imho be cost effective to boil dont see how there can be a whole lot of salt per gallon of sea water. Bottom line is I don't know but seems to be a little bit harder than what you were thinking Personel note to you not trying to pick on you (I have corrected or questioned others)just trying to point out that what we are doing out here in 3000 BC California is not like backpacking in The 21st century. Further many things that seem simple in fact are quite difficult in reality I know you understand this at least in theory.
By the way as one of the "Rangers" could I get you not to trade the realy big knives and like till we know "they aren't going to come back and haunt us" please please please :D :D :D


Evaporating salt can be done using a pool of about 4" of sea water. I don't remember how long it takes, though. Where I grew up, we had two salt companies that injected water down to a salt dome, and then pumped the brine into big evaporators. It would have a higher concentration of salt, though. You may have heard of the one company: Morton Salt, Manistee, Michigan:D

[jolo]

Jolo theres easy then theres easy. Went to a site on sea salt It was part of Natural Cures website showed pictures of a man made salt flat at least an acre in size they let in sea water shut the dam and let the water evaporate. later they raked up the salt looked to fill a 50 gal barrel from an area 20feet by 20 feet. bad part how deep was the pond ?how long to evaporate? and boiling seems to kill in mineral/vitamin benefit. also it would imho be cost effective to boil dont see how there can be a whole lot of salt per gallon of sea water. Bottom line is I don't know but seems to be a little bit harder than what you were thinking Personel note to you not trying to pick on you (I have corrected or questioned others)just trying to point out that what we are doing out here in 3000 BC California is not like backpacking in The 21st century. Further many things that seem simple in fact are quite difficult in reality I know you understand this at least in theory.
By the way as one of the "Rangers" could I get you not to trade the realy big knives and like till we know "they aren't going to come back and haunt us" please please please :D :D :D

Consider a medium sized knife yours in exchange for whatever you have too much of and think to be worth it - didn't bring any machete or the likes, though. If you have sth. good to offer, I could also give you my dagger.

I know it's a lot of work to do it - but if we get 50 gallons of salt from 20x20 feet, that's already 400 (?) lbs. I also expected there to be some natural salt crusts in the area if we are really lucky - though maybe not in February, and maybe not with the Amerindians around. We'll also unluckily have to wait for summer to get salt, afaik.

Though I make things sound easy, I try to factor in the people to do it realistically. And I'm ready to accept reality when it hits me hard enough... :D

[Ghost 88]

Evaporating salt can be done using a pool of about 4" of sea water. I don't remember how long it takes, though. Where I grew up, we had two salt companies that injected water down to a salt dome, and then pumped the brine into big evaporators. It would have a higher concentration of salt, though. You may have heard of the one company: Morton Salt, Manistee, Michigan:D

No can't say that I have we always used salt with this cute kid and an umbrella on it . Just remembered it was "when it rains it pours "salt

[Ghost 88]

Consider a medium sized knife yours in exchange for whatever you have too much of and think to be worth it - didn't bring any machete or the likes, though. If you have sth. good to offer, I could also give you my dagger.

I know it's a lot of work to do it - but if we get 50 gallons of salt from 20x20 feet, that's already 400 (?) lbs. I also expected there to be some natural salt crusts in the area if we are really lucky - though maybe not in February, and maybe not with the Amerindians around. We'll also unluckily have to wait for summer to get salt, afaik.

Though I make things sound easy, I try to factor in the people to do it realistically. And I'm ready to accept reality when it hits me hard enough... :D
Jolo don't no about crust . I meant NOT trade any big sharp or point things to the native people til certian they were not going to stick it in us. A mistake a lot of the NA settlers made. On realism opps:o I know this is just RPG but if you can learn sum thin from this ole cracker and he can lurn from u thats a good thing right

[jolo]

Jolo don't no about crust . I meant NOT trade any big sharp or point things to the native people til certian they were not going to stick it in us. A mistake a lot of the NA settlers made. On realism opps:o I know this is just RPG but if you can learn sum thin from this ole cracker and he can lurn from u thats a good thing right

Didn't look closely - I suppose the whole military is behind this. Market rule #1: No weapons trade with natives - that includes any kind of knife and axe. Though I believe you'd be better of with a cut from a steel knife then from a knife made from other materials...

[Norbert]

Didn't look closely - I suppose the whole military is behind this. Market rule #1: No weapons trade with natives - that includes any kind of knife and axe. Though I believe you'd be better of with a cut from a steel knife then from a knife made from other materials...

Actually, even though they are easy to chip and break, a flint knife or fire treated flint knive can be a lot sharper than any steel knife.

[Ghost 88]

Actually, even though they are easy to chip and break, a flint knife or fire treated flint knive can be a lot sharper than any steel knife.

Yes Norbert but I was thinking a 4-6" flint they make them self as opposed to a 12" Bowie they can't.I know they can make sharp pointy things but cured leather can turn some. Shot if you'd had on your leather britches Doc might not be sewing you back together right now

[Flocculencio]

Didn't look closely - I suppose the whole military is behind this. Market rule #1: No weapons trade with natives - that includes any kind of knife and axe. Though I believe you'd be better of with a cut from a steel knife then from a knife made from other materials...

Well we already gave one steel knife to the Coastal Miwok to gain their trust. I guess if the council agrees that this should be stopped then it will be.

[Doctor What]

Possible animals

Deer:
Bears:
Mountain Lions
Rabbits:
Ground Squirrels:
Porcupine:
Racoons:
Turkeys:
Grouse:
Snakes:
Wolves:

Here are some more animals we might find : Click Me! (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/whdab/html/lifehistmammal.html)

A couple questions about the Hunt:
-How many skins/furs/pelts do you think can be salvaged from this Hunt?
-How many of these do we need and how many can be traded with the natives?

Well we already gave one steel knife to the Coastal Miwok to gain their trust. I guess if the council agrees that this should be stopped then it will be.
I agree that there should be a moratorium for now on weapons trading but I'm going to bring up in council that this could be re-established once we're sure they're going to stay friendly. Even then--strictly regulated and only with one or two bands for the foreseenable future.

[Psychomeltdown]

A couple questions about the Hunt:
-How many skins/furs/pelts do you think can be salvaged from this Hunt?
-How many of these do we need and how many can be traded with the natives?

I'm thinking all the small game's skins are a lost cause, we'll be pretty much doing a rush job, since we'll hopefully have a lot of animals to process and skin sis not the main concern right now.

Though I figure with some supervision, we may be able to preserve some of the bigger animal skins, deers, bears, etc.

I would imagine a grizzly skin would fetch a good price among the natives.

Though tanning is another matter all together.

[Doctor What]

I'm thinking all the small game's skins are a lost cause, we'll be pretty much doing a rush job, since we'll hopefully have a lot of animals to process and skin sis not the main concern right now.

Plus we'll just be blasting away like crazy at the critters--wouldn't be surprised if most get hit by multiple shots or get partially crushed by the larger ones.

Though I figure with some supervision, we may be able to preserve some of the bigger animal skins, deers, bears, etc.

What do you think will be a good ballpark figure? 50? 100?

I would imagine a grizzly skin would fetch a good price among the natives.

My thinking exactly. Maybe with a bit of luck we can trade the skin for the use of some guides for a few days. BTW--what happened to the skin of the first bear that was killed on day 2--still lying around the Ward place somewhere?

Though tanning is another matter all together.

Would that be absolutely necessary or can we get away without doing so?

[GBW]

Am I right in understanding that two groups have already peeled off of the main group? One has moved in another direction (Where, btw?), while the other is deciding to stay at Ian's place in San Jose. San Jose doesn't get as much rainfall as the area the rest of us will be heading towards, so I don't know how well their crops will do...

[jolo]

Am I right in understanding that two groups have already peeled off of the main group? One has moved in another direction (Where, btw?), while the other is deciding to stay at Ian's place in San Jose. San Jose doesn't get as much rainfall as the area the rest of us will be heading towards, so I don't know how well their crops will do...

We'll do some irrigation - there are two creeks there, one should at least be permanent.

[Psychomeltdown]

What do you think will be a good ballpark figure? 50? 100?If the forests aren't heavily hunted and still holding plenty of game, then we may see figures upwards to that, maybe more if we're lucky.

What I'm hoping for is at least two weeks of food from these animals.

which is about 100000 lbs of meat.

Need couple of hundred deer for that...

BTW--what happened to the skin of the first bear that was killed on day 2--still lying around the Ward place somewhere? figure Ward and Co are trying to tan it...

Maybe we could ask Ahmick how he does it? ;)



Would that be absolutely necessary or can we get away without doing so?
Well we have to tan it or at least preserve it somehow, or else the skin will begin to spoil and rot, especially with the damp weather we're having.

Here's a bit on Tanning (http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_l/l-103.html)

and Some More...l (http://www.braintan.com/articles/brainbones2.html)

[jolo]

The first method of tanning was simply chewing on the leather after the meat is scraped off and any remaining meat has been washed and scrubbed off.

[Forum Lurker]

I know it's a lot of work to do it - but if we get 50 gallons of salt from 20x20 feet, that's already 400 (?) lbs. I also expected there to be some natural salt crusts in the area if we are really lucky - though maybe not in February, and maybe not with the Amerindians around. We'll also unluckily have to wait for summer to get salt, afaik.

You get 35 grams of salt per liter of seawater. That means for one kilo of salt, you need .3 square meters at 10 cm depth. That's not really so bad; the problem lies in evaporating the water. Given that a five-gallon cookpot can net you almost a pound of salt, we might be better off using wood fires to boil it off; it depends on how long we can afford to wait, and how good our engineering skills our.

[jolo]

You get 35 grams of salt per liter of seawater. That means for one kilo of salt, you need .3 square meters at 10 cm depth. That's not really so bad; the problem lies in evaporating the water. Given that a five-gallon cookpot can net you almost a pound of salt, we might be better off using wood fires to boil it off; it depends on how long we can afford to wait, and how good our engineering skills our.

To get enough salt for our first big hunt, wood fires should do.

[Psychomeltdown]

Since I like thinking on things, Here's My figuring of Othniel's proposal, broad outlines.





OTHNIEL'S EXPLORATION AND SURVEYING OF POTENTIAL IANOPOLIS SITES

Othniel has volunteered to lead an expedition to the proposed site for Ianopolis. The reasons are many, but it boils down to this. We need to know where we're going. We need to know the landscape, the natural resources around the area we are to settle, soil type, game, native tribes. We cannot go in blindly and the information that he gathers will be helpful to out planning and moving situation.


Therefore Othniel will be taking a survey team, along with a contingent of guards, and possibly a representative of the Foreign Relations Committee.

They will be traveling at least 80 miles.

1 week to get there, scouting along the way.
2 weeks to survey and find a suitable spot
1 week to return

PERSONNEL

Othniel - Chief Surveyor/Expedition Leader
Norbert - Resource Assessing
2 surveyors
3 Ranger guards
1 FRC representative

They will be going on foot, supported by:
3 pack donkeys
2 guard dogs

SUPPLIES

5 30-06 rifles, 300 rds
4 .22 rifles, 500 rds
8 .357 revolvers, 150 rds
3 Springfield Model 1863 Rifle, 150 rds
extra powder

600 lbs of food
Clothing, various
Rainwear
camping gear
fishing gear
cookware
Surveying gear
medical supplies
Tools (shovels, axes, hatchets, etc)
potential trade items/gifts

[Flocculencio]

Sounds reasonable.

[GBW]

Once the Rangers have been officially formed, I'll volunteer for the expedition as one of the guards.

[Ghost 88]

Too few rangers the guard alone is 24/7. On trek to base camp,one each minimum for flanks ,point,and trail with amain body to react.Need 8-12

[Psychomeltdown]

Too few rangers the guard alone is 24/7. On trek to base camp,one each minimum for flanks ,point,and trail with amain body to react.Need 8-12
We don't even have 8-12 Rangers yet. As Othneil said, this plan has to go ahead and get a move on, since we can't sit around Ian's Apartment forever.

Norbert can shoot, maybe the two surveyor NPCs can also. Oth claims he can't, but I'm sure he can take a hour or four and stay on watch.

[Ghost 88]

We don't even have 8-12 Rangers yet. As Othneil said, this plan has to go ahead and get a move on, since we can't sit around Ian's Apartment forever.

Norbert can shoot, maybe the two surveyor NPCs can also. Oth claims he can't, but I'm sure he can take a hour or four and stay on watch.

Thought about that after I posted:o should have said guards Party should be 12 maybe 14

[Norbert]

Unfortunatly, after my encounter day 4, I will not be readily able to hike it like I originally planned. The good news is my thigh wound amounts to deep gashes, not deep enough to be a permenant problem, but able to heal up. I figure that the wounds, were similar to one I picked up some years ago. Using a walking stick, I should be able to get around ok, and should be able to ride a horse. Painful, but I often have pain like someone were driving nails into my knee anyway, and while I might frown a bit at the pain, I get around allright. And if I am able to obtain materials to change the dressings and keep it clean, I shouldn't run into problems. Maybe I just need to borrow my horse back from the loan to the Rangers?:D

[Gerard-ABC]

Norbert,
Glad that you're recovering. My team heard the shots, then got told by an NPC what had happened. I'll keep a rifle handy too, as well as the .45 pistol. Of course, swinging an axe at a cougar will be useful...

I'm no good on a horse, and don't know surveying, so I can't replace you.

I can keep things going here for the new wagons, and keep a supply of wood ready for after the hunt.


Regards,
Gerard

[Matt]

Norbert, my friend Brad(an NPC sort) is a trained engineer. He can take the survey.

[Psychomeltdown]

Norbert, my friend Brad(an NPC sort) is a trained engineer. He can take the survey.
Maybe Sion can go, he's an engineer and knows how to shoot, it seems.

[SionEwig]

Since I like thinking on things, Here's My figuring of Othniel's proposal, broad outlines.





OTHNIEL'S EXPLORATION AND SURVEYING OF POTENTIAL IANOPOLIS SITES

Othniel has volunteered to lead an expedition to the proposed site for Ianopolis. The reasons are many, but it boils down to this. We need to know where we're going. We need to know the landscape, the natural resources around the area we are to settle, soil type, game, native tribes. We cannot go in blindly and the information that he gathers will be helpful to out planning and moving situation.

Well, we had already planned on sending a Scouting team to the area so this is a reasonable idea but....


Therefore Othniel will be taking a survey team, along with a contingent of guards, and possibly a representative of the Foreign Relations Committee.[quote]

Pretty much what had been ball parked in earlier planning, so far so good.

[quote]They will be traveling at least 80 miles.

From where we are to the current planned location is at least 45 miles by the route Phred and I had worked mostly out.

1 week to get there, scouting along the way.
2 weeks to survey and find a suitable spot
1 week to return

Way too long, do we have 4 more weeks to sit around here, though we would get a lot of work done on the area for those staying at the Apartment. Plus we could get even more wagons made, which we will need.

The time must be cut, 3 days up, 1 week on site, and 3 days back, with one extra day to spare.

PERSONNEL

Othniel - Chief Surveyor/Expedition Leader
Norbert - Resource Assessing
2 surveyors
3 Ranger guards
1 FRC representative

Way too few, given that we have had encounter with hostiles in the area. If the hostiles get 50 or more after you they could just wipe you out in one fell swoop. And that few will be fairly easy to pick off also.

They will be going on foot, supported by:
3 pack donkeys
2 guard dogs

SUPPLIES

5 30-06 rifles, 300 rds
4 .22 rifles, 500 rds
8 .357 revolvers, 150 rds
3 Springfield Model 1863 Rifle, 150 rds
extra powder

600 lbs of food
Clothing, various
Rainwear
camping gear
fishing gear
cookware
Surveying gear
medical supplies
Tools (shovels, axes, hatchets, etc)
potential trade items/gifts

This stuff actually looks good, you may want to add another donkey depending on if the number of people in the party is increased. Also, if you have never handled guard dogs, if can be a bit tricky. Now if any of the personel are the ones who brought the guard dogs, then things should be ok.

Yes this is a necessary idea, but it still needs some work.

[Norbert]

3 Days up: OK
7 Days there: OK
3 Days Back: OK

A lot can be done by a group in 7 days. True, we will not find everything, but we can get a VERY good idea on the area, and where we can initially set up until the permenant settlement is up and ready. I think two more donkeys are in order.

[Othniel]

I'll defer to Sion.

[Psychomeltdown]

werid, I thought it was said that it was 80 miles to Ianopolis... maybe Flocc said 80 km...

Well like I said, broad outlines.

Sion can change it if he wants, I guess he'll be going?

[SionEwig]

werid, I thought it was said that it was 80 miles to Ianopolis... maybe Flocc said 80 km...

Well like I said, broad outlines.

Sion can change it if he wants, I guess he'll be going?

I think that was the original estimate until a couple of us pulled out maps with scales on them and did some measuring. Now during that week there could easily be several side trips that could really add some miles.

Hey, your broad outline was good.

I'm not in any position to change anything like that, just giving my opinion and making some corrections on what we originally thought. It is up to y'all to make the actual decisions, I will give advice and suggestions:D .

I'll go if y'all decide, or not if y'all decide.

[Psychomeltdown]

DEPARTMENT OF LIVESTOCK MAINTENANCE AND ALLOCATION

Department Heads: Psychomeltdown and DominusNovus
Exterior Livestock Coordinator: Psychomeltdown
Interior Livestock Coordinator: DominusNovus
Chief Veterinarian:
Animal Force Allocation Coordinator: Hendryk
Animal Byproduct Resource Coordinator: Hendryk


The animals that we have are as follows:

559 Large Animals
562 Medium Animals
166 Small Animals

Large Animals

340 horses, 303 mares, 37 stallions.
67 donkeys, 59 female, 8 males
49 oxen, 44 female, 5 bulls
56 cattle. 50 female, 6 bulls
25 dairy cows, 20 cows, 5 bulls
20 llamas, 17 female, 3 male

Medium Animals

246 Pigs, 222 females, 24 males
200 Sheep 181 ewes, 19 rams
72 Goats 65 female, 9 male
44 Dogs 30 female, 14 male

Small Animals

96 Chickens 75 female, 21 male
53 Rabbits 36 female, 17 male
14 Cats 9 female, 5 male
3 Small Dogs 3 male



Exterior Livestock
Horses
Donkeys
Oxen
Cattle
Llamas
Sheep
Goats

Interior Livestock
Dairy Cows
Pigs
Chickens
Rabbits

Draft Animals
Horses
Donkeys
Oxen
Llamas

Herd Animals
Cattle
Sheep
Goats

Limited Herd Animals (meaning staying near camp)
Dairy Cows
Pigs


Personnel Request

Draft Animal Handlers

Due to the fact that we will be needing our animals to do a lot of laboring activities, we will also have to form a group who’s purpose it to ensure that the animals are being well cared for and to handle them for various people who aren’t used to handling animals.

The most important Draft Animal that we have at the moment is the horse. With 340 horses we are still going to be stretched with all that we need to do. Therefore it is imperative that these horses are watched for, cared for, and fed correctly.

Along with the other Draft Animals, I’m requesting personnel be trained to look out solely for the animals in our possession. The Draft Animals will be kept within the perimeter of the camp, for ease of watching and for protection.

1 Chief Horsemen
13 Head Horsemen
40 Horse Handlers
2 Dedicated vets

1 Chief Llamamen
3 Llama handlers

1 Chief Donkeymen
9 Donkey Handlers

1 Chief Oxenmen
7 Oxen Handlers

Support Personnel: 15

The handlers will also fill the spot of teamster when it is needed.


Herders

Herders will work on a 12 hr watch, guarding, herding, etc on a daily basis.

Watches are from the following

6 am – 6pm
6 pm – 6 am

Personnel Needed

Day Watches will be needing more men and horses, due to the fact that the Herd animals will be needed to be grazed away from camp, therefore needing to be watched more carefully and keep an eye for predators.

Night watches will be needing slightly less personnel, due the fact that the Herd animals will be brought back to camp and place within the guarding perimeter of the Camp.

Sheep/Goats
Day: 15 people, 2 on horseback
Night: 5

Support Personnel: 4


Cattle
Day: 10, 3 on horseback
Night: 5

Support Personnel: 3


Interior Livestock

Most Interior Livestock do not need to be moved or herded about, they are kept either in pens or cages for their own safety and out of necessity. Therefore unlike Draft Animals and the Herd animals, they do not need to be continuously watched.

In a sedentary situation there needs to be less personnel devoted to the care of the animals, though plenty are still needed due to the amount of animals. Once the Camp gets moving, then they’ll be need for more people to help in the moving of these animals..

1 Chief Pig Farmer
10 Pig Foremen
30 Handlers

4 Dairy Cow Handlers

4 Chicken Handlers
3 Rabbit Handlers

Support Personnel: 6

[SionEwig]

The animals that we have are as follows:

Large Animals

340 horses, 303 mares, 37 stallions.
67 donkeys, 59 female, 8 males
49 oxen, 44 female, 5 bulls
56 cattle. 50 female, 6 bulls
25 dairy cows, 20 cows, 5 bulls
20 llamas, 17 female, 3 male


Once again you have left off the Jack MULE that my family brought. I have mentioned it several times but I guess you missed it. Subtract out which ever large animal you wish. One of the female dogs is ours also.

[Ghost 88]

Damn Sion didn't they tell you? Damn ASBs your Jack mule is resting inside of one of the mares them damn Bats decided to send only fertile animals:D

[SionEwig]

Damn Sion didn't they tell you? Damn ASBs your Jack mule is resting inside of one of the mares them damn Bats decided to send only fertile animals:D

LOL, then my wife is going to be hunting down some ASBs and defertilizing them with a very rusty and dull rock. Not because of the mule, but that she was done with that stuff and doesn't really want to go through the time again (and if she does, then I will need to schedule a out of community trip for a while:D ).

[Ghost 88]

LOL, then my wife is going to be hunting down some ASBs and defertilizing them with a very rusty and dull rock. Not because of the mule, but that she was done with that stuff and doesn't really want to go through the time again (and if she does, then I will need to schedule a out of community trip for a while:D ).
Damn ------- damn-------uh I meant the livestock:o

[DominusNovus]

Hey Psycho...

oxen, are just castrated bulls. :o
(well, a wild ox is another animal completely, but I doubt thats what anyone meant).

[SionEwig]

Hey Psycho...

oxen, are just castrated bulls. :o
(well, a wild ox is another animal completely, but I doubt thats what anyone meant).

That has been mentioned to him before, several times, but I guess he missed that too:D .

[Ghost 88]

Hey Psycho...

oxen, are just castrated bulls. :o
(well, a wild ox is another animal completely, but I doubt thats what anyone meant).
Dominus castrated bulls are called steers an oxen is a different breed of bovine If you still don't believe us please google it

[Flocculencio]

Dominus castrated bulls are called steers an oxen is a different breed of bovine If you still don't believe us please google it

No they're not- Oxen are cattle trained to be draft animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxen#Ox). They are often though not always steers.

[Ghost 88]

No they're not- Oxen are cattle trained to be draft animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxen#Ox). They are often though not always steers.
Okay my bad

[Othniel]

Who is going on the Ianapolis Information Expedition? I'm going as one of the people I know, just because I brought some of the right equipment. But whom else? Doctor What, Leo, GBW, hopeful Sion... did we say 8 people, or 12?

[Matt]

I started a thread for it Oth.

[Psychomeltdown]

No they're not- Oxen are cattle trained to be draft animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxen#Ox). They are often though not always steers.
Well, that settles that, it seems. :o


What do you say, trade the oxen for horses? We don't really need any cattle now and I don't think anyone has the training to train an oxen...

[Matt]

Well, that settles that, it seems. :o


What do you say, trade the oxen for horses? We don't really need any cattle now and I don't think anyone has the training to train an oxen...


Yes! We need horses. Specifically horses that are more suitable to be mounts(Walers, Saddlebreds). Most people have taken draft horses, which can be difficult as mounts.

[Psychomeltdown]

Yes! We need horses. Specifically horses that are more suitable to be mounts(Walers, Saddlebreds). Most people have taken draft horses, which can be difficult as mounts.
Alright instead of the 75 oxen we came with, they'll be 75 horses???

Think this should be a poll thing or what? Can we just change something like this, this far into the game???

[Matt]

Alright instead of the 75 oxen we came with, they'll be 75 horses???

Think this should be a poll thing or what? Can we just change something like this, this far into the game???


Well we haven't used the oxen for anything yet have we? It can just retconn in.

I'm a big fan of the retconn :)

[Norbert]

My understanding of the Morgan Horse was that they were suited both for riding and work. (Justin Morgan had a horse, da da da da)

[Psychomeltdown]

Well we haven't used the oxen for anything yet have we? It can just retconn in.

I'm a big fan of the retconn :)
Define retconn :o

[Matt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon

[Psychomeltdown]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon
Aw...

run it by Ward, if he's cool.

We'll be having an additional 75 horses to the original herd,

meaning the Camp will have 49 extra horses, 44 mares, 5 stallions.

[Othniel]

Opinions on thee two setiments on the Grand Trek.:)

Grand Trek;

I've come to the conclusion that we need to save the labor for the main settlement. We'll need everyone healthly and treking we it comes time to go, meaning we should put the camp into more easily moving postion. Tell everyone that a true north overlay of the camp needs to be done. All Wagons, all tents and all people need to be orinatated towards the north.

We may have to just have the rangers scout out trails directly ahead of our camp. We'll need to know what formation is nessacary for our wagons to get through the terrain if it is rougher in some of these parts. Nor will this be easy, most Wagon Trains consisted of less than 150 people, thus we must be willing to leave in waves if it alleavates the stress on the main encampment. 30 to 50 Wagons are going to be organized into groups, Ward's leaving first, and whose ever is in the rear ending the trek. Every group leaves 30 mins before the one before it, starting at 4 AM. Millitia Calvary willl make sure stragglers make it there ok.

From there the logistics people can sort out who ends up in what areas when we get there. First priority when we get there is the full out clearing of the woods, with housing and the acualt farming becoming more important. Places where Community goods can be distrubited will have to be set up(the reason I'm not giving up my stuff right now is because I don't qant to have to find someone to get what I need and my breakfast, which I'll need for the trip.)

Yes, moving in waves would be best, but we need the scouts report on our destination, and route to avoid hazards, be they natural or man.

I would like a team of woodcutters with each group, just in case we do not camp in the same location, but with the majority with the first group. That way, when the first group reaches our destination, work can begin cutting immediatly, at first for fuel, and then for construction materials. Someone mentioned building sod houses, which I agree would save on wood, but my concern with them is the amount of rain, and the level of the water table. Sod houses work well in relativly dryer climates, where the ground water is not very close to the surface, but in California, the bay region specifically, could we dig down even two feet without having water seeping into the hole?

Another reason to have the majority of the woodcutters with the first group is if we need to build rafts to cross a river safely.

The last point I will make, is by expanding the number of people who can safely cut down a tree without hurting someone by doing the preperation of the great hunt, increases the number of teams to travel with each group. The great hunt will also free up people in the long run for the clearing of the land at our destination, for we will have food to fall back on, and be able to stretch our meager supply of 'up-time' food for emergancies. The risk of someone getting hurt in the hunt is outweighed by the long term benefits, in my opinion.

[Norbert]

Aw...

run it by Ward, if he's cool.

We'll be having an additional 75 horses to the original herd,

meaning the Camp will have 49 extra horses, 44 mares, 5 stallions.


Ward would like to see more milk cows. He will be posting a link on cows he found when I take him home from my place tonight.

[DominusNovus]

I know how to train oxen...

And besides, oxen have their uses, especially when it comes to lumber. Besides, we can always just slaughter them and eat them. No need for retconning (other than the gender issue).

[Matt]

Need... horses.... WAAAA!!!

[Grimm Reaper]

But horsies are not much use when they is old, and oxies are beef!

[Ghost 88]

But horsies are not much use when they is old, and oxies are beef!
and horsies is dog food

[Norbert]

As to lumbering, I would eventually like to get a couple devices I will describe:

Basically, two wheels about 10 to 12 feet in diameter with a heavy duty axle and about a 20 to 24 foot tongue. Width overall was about 8 feet. To the axel, a chain was able to be attached, and the front of the logs was off the ground with the rear of the log(s) dragging. It is pulled by two oxen. The actual name was 'Overpack Logging Wheels' (Overpack was actually the guys name who built them). They were successfully used to log the virgin timber of Michigan during the 1870s on, where ready access to the rivers required moving the logs to get them to the river so they could be floated to the lumber mills at the rivers mouth.

By the way, I wrote a 200 page paper once on the lumbering operations of Michigan, starting from 1850s to 1920s. Got a B+ because my spelling at the time wasn't to good.

[Norbert]

and horsies is dog food

Horse isn't to bad with mushrooms, onions and potatoes. They might be even better if we used horseradish with it!

(BTW, I brought Horseradish seeds!!! Once they are growing, we'll never get rid of them!!)

[GBW]

Horse meat is food. With all the people we're feeding, we can't be too choosy.

Another thought: it was said that the frost period for the area we're going to is early January. I take it we'll begin plowing and planting after that? Around January 10 or so?

[Psychomeltdown]

I know how to train oxen...

And besides, oxen have their uses, especially when it comes to lumber. Besides, we can always just slaughter them and eat them. No need for retconning (other than the gender issue).
Instead of retconning them, why not leave them as they are.

Consider that they're the future herd of oxen. it'll be years before they can be used, but then again so will the sheep, goats, and cattle be years in the working. Figure there''s a breed of cattle that's mainly used for making oxen, therefore we keep that breed.

This is a long term plan. not short term.

We can just keep the breed of "oxen" and leave it at that. Years from now when we can get the herds up to snuff, we can begin using them as draft animals.

[Norbert]

Horse meat is food. With all the people we're feeding, we can't be too choosy.

Another thought: it was said that the frost period for the area we're going to is early January. I take it we'll begin plowing and planting after that? Around January 10 or so?

Normally, we could plow before the first frost (avg Jan 3), and plant after the last frost (about Jan 8). But we are at Feb 11th, or therabouts, right now (day 6).

[Psychomeltdown]

Horse meat is food. With all the people we're feeding, we can't be too choosy.
I ordered the horse that I had to put down (it broke it's leg) to be butchered for food. It's food and we need all the food we can get.

Guess someone's eatin' horse tonight...

[Ghost 88]

Horse isn't to bad with mushrooms, onions and potatoes. They might be even better if we used horseradish with it!
Yeah for sure next you'll say we can eat them cute little deer i've seen around camp

(BTW, I brought Horseradish seeds!!! Once they are growing, we'll never get rid of them!!)
Why would you want to plant something that will give our poor horsies a rash

[Norbert]

Why would you want to plant something that will give our poor horsies a rash


Because it can cover up the nasty taste of things like Green Beans and cooked Spinach?

[Ghost 88]

Because it can cover up the nasty taste of things like Green Beans and cooked Spinach?
Nothing I say again nothing can hid the taste of spinach.

[Forum Lurker]

Nothing I say again nothing can hid the taste of spinach.
Spoken like a man who's never eaten raw rabbit.

Not that I have; I'm just saying, is all. Plus, I'd eat the spinach.

[Dave Howery]

Guess someone's eatin' horse tonight...

well, they could mix it with the bear we shot yesterday, add some wild greens...

God, does that sound like the foulest stew in creation, or what...

[Psychomeltdown]

Guess someone's eatin' horse tonight...

well, they could mix it with the bear we shot yesterday, add some wild greens...

God, does that sound like the foulest stew in creation, or what...
Good thing navajos have a deep aversion to eating horse. We're not Apaches. :D

[Ghost 88]

Good thing navajos have a deep aversion to eating horse. We're not Apaches. :D
Of course your not an enemy what would make you think that

[Psychomeltdown]

Of course your not an enemy what would make you think that
Huh enemy??? :confused:

[Ghost 88]

Huh enemy??? :confused:
Damn thought you would have known that Apache is Papago for enemy ;) (yes I know they prefer thier tradtional name but I cant even start to spell it)

[Dave Howery]

you know, we haven't heard anything from Shadestorm or the others who just took off for days and days.

should we assume they died?

[GBW]

you know, we haven't heard anything from Shadestorm or the others who just took off for days and days.

should we assume they died?
Or the ASBs decided to send them back to the Jurassic. :rolleyes:

[Psychomeltdown]

What happened to the homesteaders? those that just left to strike it out on their own???

[Dave Howery]

they died. Bears ate them. So sad.

[Ward]

they died. Bears ate them. So sad.


no they are getting attacked by a war party from Alantics and being made slaves

[Psychomeltdown]

no they are getting attacked by a war party from Alantics and being made slaves
Just wrote it up...

wonder how Jolo's gonna take it??? :D

[jolo]

Just wrote it up...

wonder how Jolo's gonna take it??? :D

Now you know...

[Hendryk]

Guess someone's eatin' horse tonight...
Why the fuss about horse meat anyway? It's actually pretty good.
Bear meat I've never tried, so I can't tell. But if it's anything like boar, it must be rather tasty.

[Ghost 88]

Why the fuss about horse meat anyway? It's actually pretty good.
Bear meat I've never tried, so I can't tell. But if it's anything like boar, it must be rather tasty.
Black Bear is greaser than beef along the lines of pork taste I don't recall but not bad.

[Forum Lurker]

Why the fuss about horse meat anyway? It's actually pretty good.
Bear meat I've never tried, so I can't tell. But if it's anything like boar, it must be rather tasty.
Well, my objection would be that it's not kosher. Of course, that just means more for the rest of you, and more fish stew for me.

[Dave Howery]

from what I remember about bear meat... how it tastes depends on what they've been eating... if you get ones that have been eating berries and fruit, it's good. If you get one that's eating fish, it's not good. At this point though, I don't think we can afford to turn down any source of food, so no matter what the bears are eating, we eat them...