ALT Chat

[Ward]

let us move the chat to here Guys . Insead of the What we are taking thread .

[jolo]

let us move the chat to here Guys . Insead of the What we are taking thread .

Good idea.

I for one think the Amerindians will be exposed to Eurasian illnesses anyways sooner or later, and if we are too careful, our offspring might even be vulnerable, if our medical system doesn't develop as quickly as our contacts.

We should also be able to help a lot of the affected medically, so that our influence is neutral in terms of death - some more flu on one hand, some less syphillis on the other hand.

[pisces74]

If no else is willing to try to stop Shadestorm's little drugocracy off the get go I am. all we need is for him to get out, be moderately successful and turn the usually peaceful and isolated Chinook ( I think they're the closest big tribe) into a bunch of junkie Comanches. theres only at tops 1000 of us and 1/2 that is fighting capable. One day sooner or later that drugocracy is going to want to expand right around us, and my siege mentality dosn't cotton to that at all.

[jolo]

If no else is willing to try to stop Shadestorm's little drugocracy off the get go I am. all we need is for him to get out, be moderately successful and turn the usually peaceful and isolated Chinook ( I think they're the closest big tribe) into a bunch of junkie Comanches. theres only at tops 1000 of us and 1/2 that is fighting capable. One day sooner or later that drugocracy is going to want to expand right around us, and my siege mentality dosn't cotton to that at all.

I'm not too afraid of an army of drug addicts...

[Glen]

Good idea.

I for one think the Amerindians will be exposed to Eurasian illnesses anyways sooner or later,

Thousands of years later...

and if we are too careful, our offspring might even be vulnerable, if our medical system doesn't develop as quickly as our contacts.

Yeah, but we can develop a lot of the vaccines with some ease. We'll have to go probably to live attenuated viruses injected into eggs for incubation for most.

Yes, our offspring will be...and that is one reason why we shouldn't attempt any contact with the Old World until we have our medical infrastructure up and running. Exposure is a crappy way to protect people, since it also leads to infection.

BTW, we might already be vulnerable...some strains of disease may be circulating around the old world at this time that has been long extinct in our own..don't assume.

What we really need to do is bring enough knowledge and equipment to be able to produce our own antibacterials and vaccines, if given time.

I would argue that we have plenty of time, if we're smart. We could spend generations building up our nation in the New World before ever even contacting the Old World.

We should also be able to help a lot of the affected medically, so that our influence is neutral in terms of death - some more flu on one hand, some less syphillis on the other hand.

That won't be a neutral trade...and it is an unnecessary one. Some simple precautions and a little patience and forethought could have us have our cake and eat it too.

[pisces74]

I'm not too afraid of an army of drug addicts...

Then you've never been to close to one....

[Shadestorm]

Well I'm taking off as soon as we get there. You can't identify me in a crowd of 1000+ excited people. I'll be able to slip away before you can get your bearings together. Plus, I have a rifle.

[jolo]

Then you've never been to close to one....

I suppose none of us have, as such armies were pretty much limited to China (and made it easy to control that country).

[Darkest]

Hey, here is a San Francisco Map, had to edit out all the roads and words, so now it works very well. Let's use this to plan where our towns and stuff are going to be, ect.

[Dave Howery]

Well I'm taking off as soon as we get there. You can't identify me in a crowd of 1000+ excited people. I'll be able to slip away before you can get your bearings together. Plus, I have a rifle.
so long then... do you have any identifying marks or unique scars or anything so we can identify your body later?

[General_Paul]

I for one am going to found my own shipyards thank you very much. I'm bringing a laptop with me, along with the plans for some older Roman-esque vessels, and the plans for every major naval advancement up to the Dreadnaught. Our grandchildren and great-grandchildren can use them well. Anyone want in on the ground floor? You can even have your own hovel next to the yards! Plus, tons of natives are getting hired to do the work. Pound a nail, cut the board, don't cut your hand off...

[Darkest]

I say let him go off. As long as he isn't bothering us, whatever. It's not important enough to waste precious time hunting him down, we have to get planting, and breeding, so that we can get food as soon as possible.

[Dave Howery]

sounds like a nice long term plan, but I don't think you'll be in a position to do that for a few years..

[General_Paul]

Who said I need to farm/hunt for anyone besides myself and my clone celebrity wife? Plus, I want to establish good relations with any natives living nearby to use as laborers in the ship works, and later on, as the ones who RUN the shipyards.

In that sense, i think one of our first goals should be the founding of a school system. Education WILL be needed in this world. I'll volunteer to be a school teacher!

[Dave Howery]

well, the first couple years, it'll be all hands on deck to do field clearing and harvesting... there won't be any 'me and only me' for a while... and even if you were farming just for you and your wife, that'd still tie up most of your time... it's not that easy... you're going to need help at first...

[Darkest]

Head to China or Egypt or the Middle East if you are going sailing. The Neolithic Civilizations are out there, just need to go find them. In particular the Chinese would be awesome to find and become their god. Turn them into a true empire, conquering everybody thousands of years early.

[jolo]

Here's the small map from the beginning of the thread, with my addition.

[Dave Howery]

our initial area doesn't look too bad... two rivers for power, access to the sea... but not so close to the shore that we'll be running into all those mollusk-hunting natives...

[General_Paul]

And why would that be a bad thing? We need contact with the native civilizations, plus they're a good work force. Either via conquering, trade alliances, intigration with our settlement, exc., the native population is an excellent base for future civilizations. And if a few of us bring translation books for these native languages, we can have a working relationship with the tribes of the area.

[Darkest]

Dude, I just spent an hour fixing up a map so it doesn't have roads or words everywhere... USE IT!:)

[Bulgaroktonos]

I for one am going to found my own shipyards

I'll form a consortium with you in that endeavor, as I too want a ship yard.

Upon that note, we may want to have a significant number of fishermen. California has some excellent fishing. Also, how is seal as a food? They have significant colonies that are incredibly close, with likely massive populations. Those would present some excellent food opportunties. It would also give us heating oil from their blubber.

[Dave Howery]

a shipyard will be nice a couple years down the road, but the first years, we need everyone clearing land and building houses... the only fishing we'll be doing is in those rivers nearby...

[Glen]

Head to China or Egypt or the Middle East if you are going sailing. The Neolithic Civilizations are out there, just need to go find them. In particular the Chinese would be awesome to find and become their god. Turn them into a true empire, conquering everybody thousands of years early.

Again, I think we need to stay in the Americas for the foreseeable future.

I think one or a handful of people are going to have some difficulty establishing personal empires out there in the Old World...and why would you?

Do we really want to repeat the errors of the past, or start finding our own, new mistakes?

Empires are fun to play, not in reality...

[jolo]

Dude, I just spent an hour fixing up a map so it doesn't have roads or words everywhere... USE IT!:)

Sorry, I was too lazy to insert all the necessary things there - can you PLEEEEEAAASE do it? :o

[Darkest]

Yeah, I guess you are right. Let's try to play this realistically.

Still, eventually, I would like to meet up with China or Egypt for trade or just to help them out with technology.

[Bulgaroktonos]

a shipyard will be nice a couple years down the road, but the first years, we need everyone clearing land and building houses... the only fishing we'll be doing is in those rivers nearby...

Question is how heavily forested is the San Bernadino valley? While not Arid, its not a land of giant trees. It tends to be some what dry in California, with a perfect amount of rain for agriculture, but not dense forests.

Clearing isn't going to be as big a problem as it would be in say the US Northeast.

[Dave Howery]

what civilizations are around in 5000 BC? Is Egypt up and running? Anything in China? Middle East? Hey, no one's living in New Zealand... we could claim the place in a couple of generations...

[Dave Howery]

Question is how heavily forested is the San Bernadino valley? While not Arid, its not a land of giant trees. It tends to be some what dry in California, with a perfect amount of rain for agriculture, but not dense forests.

Clearing isn't going to be as big a problem as it would be in say the US Northeast.
no, but there will likely be a fair number of trees scattered through our potential fields... the natives at the time regularly set wildfires to keep the brush down and promote the growth of the trees they harvest nuts from. And then's there's the rocks... and the fact that we'll be plowing virgin grassland... oh, make no mistake about it, that first year is going to be one tough bitch...

[Darkest]

Okay, fine, here is an updated map using the clear template. Enjoy.

[Bulgaroktonos]

no, but there will likely be a fair number of trees scattered through our potential fields... the natives at the time regularly set wildfires to keep the brush down and promote the growth of the trees they harvest nuts from. And then's there's the rocks... and the fact that we'll be plowing virgin grassland... oh, make no mistake about it, that first year is going to be one tough bitch...

We may wish to try and create some firebreaks around our fields, and then torch them. Slash and burn agriculture could work miracles, especially with more modern agricultural techniques allowing for greater productivity, and our low population density.

As for the difficulty here, I don't think that there is going to be large die off in our population, and food shouldn't be a problem at all. Some, if not most of us, are packing hunting rifles of various kinds, and given the large game density, even some of the most inept should be able to knock down food to provide for at least themselves, and those with the largest families seem to also be our most accomplished hunters.

The difficulty is more likely to be in the amount of work involved.

[Dave Howery]

you should put a little skull and crossbones at the end of Shadestorm's route arrow, or maybe a little tombstone...

[Dave Howery]

The difficulty is more likely to be in the amount of work involved.
Agreed. If we can keep everyone working flat out, we shouldn't starve to death (although we won't be stuffing ourselves either). But just getting the fields cleared and planted, and then putting up the buildings we need is going to be a hell of a lot of work.... those log cabins ain't easy....

[Darkest]

With 3000 people?

See, that's why I advocate more people ISOTed than just the active members. More people = more chance to survive.

[Dave Howery]

actually, it's less than 3000, because some of those are small children, and Shadestorm and his wife are running off to be killed.
Still, we should be able to get the job done... it'll be hard work, but if we plan well, we'll have what we need...

[Darkest]

I don't think its definite that Shadestorm and whoever is following him are going to get killed immediately. If he plays smart, it can be done. He will definitely find complications, however.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Agreed. If we can keep everyone working flat out, we shouldn't starve to death (although we won't be stuffing ourselves either). But just getting the fields cleared and planted, and then putting up the buildings we need is going to be a hell of a lot of work.... those log cabins ain't easy....

I agree. We need to specialize quickly. I think housing should be our primary concern. Seeing as many of us are carrying lots of food, ammo, or various other tools for the production of food, as well as locality of nuts and wild fruits, we are unlikely to starve, and thus, agriculture may be cutting it too close to be successful before winter.

Though California winters are mild. Will crops survive California winters if planted late? Or how will it work on that note?

[Dave Howery]

not definite, but likely... this absolute stranger who looks funny and has a big weird animal is going to ride in with a lot of stuff that they will be drooling to get, kill a bunch of them, get them hooked on drugs (which means that they won't be spending enough time on food gathering), demand overlordship of them (it should be noted that Amerindians of this area have no concept of a permanent king or chief... their chiefs are basically popular guys who make decisions only after long debates involving the other men.. and they're chiefs only so long as everyone agrees on it), and likely spread disease among them... sure, they'll be afraid of his guns at first, but eventually, they'll realize it can only kill them and he's just one man. I really despise the idea that primitive people are so superstitious that a modern man with guns will be automatically regarded as a god... they aren't that stupid, and treating them that way will get you killed...

[Dave Howery]

Though California winters are mild. Will crops survive California winters if planted late? Or how will it work on that note?

well, it will depend partly on when we get there.. say, March or so.. that gives us time to get in one crop, I think... someone else said on here that you can usually get 2-3 crops a year in the area... depends on what you're growing, I suppose.

[Bulgaroktonos]

I really despise the idea that primitive people are so superstitious that a modern man with guns will be automatically regarded as a god... they aren't that stupid, and treating them that way will get you killed...

I don't know. They may not be stupid, but even civilized cultures, on both landmasses, fled at the initial applications of firearms. To this end, if one sought to intimidate the natives, you would want high caliber weaponry with big booms and horrible wounds, or rapid fire weaponry.

But yeah, he's dead. He has a monopoly on force, but unless he doesn't need to sleep, then he's fucked.

Personally, I think a fully armored individual has a better chance of aweing them into his rule. He'll look even more foreign, much like we would be awed by alien creatures revealing themselves to be human underneath. If he takes a gentle approach, in which he teaches rather than rules, he could maintain power for a long time.

[General_Paul]

Why don't we change where we end up during the ISOT to where we would like the main settlement to be? That way, we can get our colony up and running, and not have to worry about anything that might crop up in the move to where the main settlement will be. Plus, it gives us more readily available access to hunting, logging, fishing, and Alameda, where I would like to found the shipyards.

[Dave Howery]

I don't know. They may not be stupid, but even civilized cultures, on both landmasses, fled at the initial applications of firearms. To this end, if one sought to intimidate the natives, you would want high caliber weaponry with big booms and horrible wounds, or rapid fire weaponry.

this'll work for a while, but they'll get over it... sooner or later, they'll realize that the gun is just a tool, and he's just one man. Guns didn't stop the Zulus from charging at Redcoats... and Shadestorm won't have a few thousand of them backing him up...

[Bulgaroktonos]

I don't know. They may not be stupid, but even civilized cultures, on both landmasses, fled at the initial applications of firearms. To this end, if one sought to intimidate the natives, you would want high caliber weaponry with big booms and horrible wounds, or rapid fire weaponry.

this'll work for a while, but they'll get over it... sooner or later, they'll realize that the gun is just a tool, and he's just one man. Guns didn't stop the Zulus from charging at Redcoats... and Shadestorm won't have a few thousand of them backing him up...

Oh I agree, Shadestorm is likely dead.

So do you put the Aztec willingness to submit to a few dozen Europeans down to the fact he fulfilled a prophecy or the fact he was armored with guns? He could theoretically pull a Cortez, and engage in a fight, and when their weapons prove entirely useless against an armored opponent, spread the idea that he is immortal......

[jolo]

I suppose Cortez was only possible because the Vikings left a good impression 500 years earlier and left before their weaknesses became known. One reason less to worry...

I also have another idea - we might bring along some seeds suitable for other climates (farther north and south), send a few people on expeditions to get to know the land and the people (maybe also some techs), and let them plant the seeds - maybe even show some natives how to cultivate them in return for some goods. That way, we'd get a much higher diversity of food for later. Might also be useful to return a few hundred pounds of iron ore or the likes.

[Bulgaroktonos]

again, it's going to be awhile before we can extract it though.. and we need the salt for preservation pretty soon.. even if everyone brings a case, it won't last all that long... it's only to get us through that first rush of activity, when we don't have time to do much else...

I'd say fishing is one of the first things we should get moving on. Labor may not be as big a problem as we think.

Okay, how many people do we think we need for a single house? Worst comes to worst, we can use tepees for the winter. Also, on an important note, do we have a lot of sturdy trees that will allow for log cabins or permanent structures? Where are they? That will be important.

Lets say we have two people on a single tree. Let's say, based on an average height of 20 feet per tree, and a usable 10-15ft per tree, with a diameter of 1.5-2ft, we need about 6 trees per side, for a square cabin, so about 24 trees per house, for the frame. Roof is different, requiring saws and planking.

Roofing should be the job of several people. Commit them solely to the working of roofing materials until we have our housing up.

Okay, so lets say that 2 people can chop a medium sized tree into usuable sections with an hour and 1 1/2, perhaps two. That's one day per side, per group. Theoretically, we could get the base of a house up in a day with 30 or so people, as two people are unlikely to be able to lift an entire tree into position, and thus extra labor is required.

Am I insane, or is this semi-logical?

[Dave Howery]

I think we're all going to be living in tents for a while, as housing is less important than barns, food storage, dams, mills, butcher shop, etc... everyone bring a nice thermal sleeping bag...

[Glen]

I think we're all going to be living in tents for a while, as housing is less important than barns, food storage, dams, mills, butcher shop, etc... everyone bring a nice thermal sleeping bag...

True...

And we will probably all be out in the fields when it is time to bring in the harvest...

[jolo]

Thinking about it, I'll probably put my tent on top of the stable (for heat) and the solar panels on top of the store and the storage. Saves one room and the according work.

[Forum Lurker]

I'd suggest earth houses, for the insulation. Just weave a wall out of brush and grasses (quite easy to do, in my experience, if you're not too concerned about making it pretty), then load it with clay-type soil and pack it in. It takes less heavy tool use, and will save you a lot of trouble chopping firewood.

[Dave Howery]

be warmer than a tent, I suppose... although, if we arrive at the start of the growing season, tents will be more than warm enough... it's the first winter that worries me...

[Flocculencio]

Winters in the Bay are relatively mild. For any of us who've slept in the wet and cold it should'nt be much of a problem. It won't be comfortable but I'm pretty sure we can take it.

[Forum Lurker]

If you have a cold-weather sleeping bag, all you should need is a windbreak. It's not a nice long-term solution, but it'll keep you from dying.

[Dave Howery]

OK, so a couple of thermal lined sleeping bags and a backpacker's two man tent should do the trick for me and the missus...

[Flocculencio]

OK, so a couple of thermal lined sleeping bags and a backpacker's two man tent should do the trick for me and the missus...

Probably. Personally I've slept in gravel and mud in the middle of a monsoon so I think I can sleep in the open and handle anything above sub-zero temperatures (which IIRC the Bay doesn't get).

[Dave Howery]

I've noticed some of you are bringing along .22s and some other modern guns. That's probably a good thing. One grim thing we're going to have to do is really put a whammy on the wildlife around us. We'll need to find and shoot every grizzly bear for miles around, as we don't dare let them around our animals and children. We'll need to shoot deer around the settlement every day, not only for food, but to keep them afraid of us... otherwise, they'll raid our crops. We'll need to beat the bushes for bunnies too, and keep them afraid to come near us. There's nothing worse than rabbits when it comes to destroying crops. We'll need to get rid of the local ground squirrels, not only because they dig holes in fields, but they attract badgers and foxes too. Luckily, we'll be in fairly open grassland, and some controlled fires should open up the land enough that the local wildlife won't be bothering us right off the bat...

[Darkest]

You're worrying about grizzlies?

*laughs*

If we arrive in the time period I expect, there will be Giant Ground Sloths around our area. That means six meter tall, big as a bull-elephant, bipedal killing machine.

Guarding is going to be as big as an occupation in our colony as farming.

Also, Dave Howry made us arrive at Ian's house, end of story. We have to follow the rules. Its a pain, but we have to do it.

[jolo]

You're worrying about grizzlies?

*laughs*

If we arrive in the time period I expect, there will be Giant Ground Sloths around our area. That means six meter tall, big as a bull-elephant, bipedal killing machine.

Guarding is going to be as big as an occupation in our colony as farming.

Also, Dave Howry made us arrive at Ian's house, end of story. We have to follow the rules. Its a pain, but we have to do it.

Ground sloths are herbivores. They will usually not attack us. But I suppose they are tasty and can be shot with spears.

[Darkest]

Elephants are herbivores as well, but the ones you find out in the wild will certainly take a swipe at you if you come onto their territory. 5,000 years ago, they did it even more frequently.

[Forum Lurker]

Ground sloths are herbivores. They will usually not attack us.
"The Cape buffalo couldn't possibly be dangerous! It's an herbivore. Eats nothing but grass. And the hippopotamus barely even leaves the river. How could it pose a threat?"

Unfortunately, some of the most dangerous animals on the face of the Earth are herbivores. Until and unless we actually meet some, we have no way of knowing how territorial or aggressive they might be.

[Matt]

Well I'm taking off as soon as we get there. You can't identify me in a crowd of 1000+ excited people. I'll be able to slip away before you can get your bearings together. Plus, I have a rifle.


Well I'll make it my first task to track you down with a squad of milita and put a .303 round right in your forehead ;)

[Norbert]

I don't know. They may not be stupid, but even civilized cultures, on both landmasses, fled at the initial applications of firearms. To this end, if one sought to intimidate the natives, you would want high caliber weaponry with big booms and horrible wounds, or rapid fire weaponry.

But yeah, he's dead. He has a monopoly on force, but unless he doesn't need to sleep, then he's fucked.

Personally, I think a fully armored individual has a better chance of aweing them into his rule. He'll look even more foreign, much like we would be awed by alien creatures revealing themselves to be human underneath. If he takes a gentle approach, in which he teaches rather than rules, he could maintain power for a long time.

Take time to watch 'The Man Who Would Be King', starring Sean Connery presenting himself as a God to a African Tribe, and then being killed when they discovered he bled and was mortal...

[luakel]

Well I'll make it my first task to track you down with a squad of milita and put a .303 round right in your forehead ;)
So much for unity & trust... :p

[Shadestorm]

And how do you know who I am? What if I leave during the night? Or the second night? Or a night a week from now? Are you seriously going to keep everyone contained until you find me out? Because I don't find that plausible; I'm sure their will be plenty of gun-toting Americans who find the idea of someone inhibiting their 'freedom', something to fight about.

Otherwise, just wanted to know when is the soonest we can get this thing started?

[Matt]

It's not like you're not making your plans in secret. You can get your head start. But when Amerindians are relating tales of the white man trading strange goods, it would be a dead give away.

[Shadestorm]

So you're going to track us down later? When we've got gun-toting Indians as mercenaries? And I'm going far man, I have enough food for a good week-long travel on horseback. And I might go in any direction too. By the time you find us, we'll be worth something enough for the natives to fight for.

[Othniel]

I'm not too afraid of an army of drug addicts...
Depends on the drug. Meth addicts for one could be particularly dangerous.

[Matt]

So you're going to track us down later? When we've got gun-toting Indians as mercenaries? And I'm going far man, I have enough food for a good week-long travel on horseback. And I might go in any direction too. By the time you find us, we'll be worth something enough to the natives.


And how many guns can you carry for this indians with out sacrificing other esstentials. and more importantly how much ammo for them?

[Norbert]

I'd say fishing is one of the first things we should get moving on. Labor may not be as big a problem as we think.

Okay, how many people do we think we need for a single house? Worst comes to worst, we can use tepees for the winter. Also, on an important note, do we have a lot of sturdy trees that will allow for log cabins or permanent structures? Where are they? That will be important.

Lets say we have two people on a single tree. Let's say, based on an average height of 20 feet per tree, and a usable 10-15ft per tree, with a diameter of 1.5-2ft, we need about 6 trees per side, for a square cabin, so about 24 trees per house, for the frame. Roof is different, requiring saws and planking.

Roofing should be the job of several people. Commit them solely to the working of roofing materials until we have our housing up.

Okay, so lets say that 2 people can chop a medium sized tree into usuable sections with an hour and 1 1/2, perhaps two. That's one day per side, per group. Theoretically, we could get the base of a house up in a day with 30 or so people, as two people are unlikely to be able to lift an entire tree into position, and thus extra labor is required.

Am I insane, or is this semi-logical?

First, an average size tree would be in the neighborhood of 70-90 feet in length if pine, and have an useful diameter of 18-24" for a good portion of its length. I can cut with the help of one other person with a 2-man crosscut a 2-3 foot tree in about 15 to 20 minutes, and saw it into lengths and have ithem ready to be hauled away, with cutting it down in half an hour. Using a chain saw, 15 minutes tops. Also, if we were to use chainsaws, it would take about 2-4 gallons of gasoline to clear 1 acre (depending on the type of wood to be cut, and how that wood is to be cut up. 2-4 gallons per acre cutting for firewood). When I was 16, I regularly moved logs of 8 foot lengths up to 10 inches diameter by myself, and larger logs with the help of my 17 year old brother up to 24 inches diameter.

What I propose is to square logs, which has them easier to fit together, and even if we were to use 12 inch square logs that were 24 feet long, they could be moved by no more than 4 people. It is also not to hard to make a primitive 'crane', just a chain attached to a long pole on a fulcrum. They are not hard to learn how to use either.

[Othniel]

So you're going to track us down later? When we've got gun-toting Indians as mercenaries? And I'm going far man, I have enough food for a good week-long travel on horseback. And I might go in any direction too. By the time you find us, we'll be worth something enough for the natives to fight for.
I doubt your power of presusation and to speak lanagues over 7000 years old. There is serious strength in numbers that you are leaving behind and you could just end up angering them. Plus the possiblity that you poison somebody with the drugs..

[Glen]

You know, these are hunter gatherers...

If Shadestorm et al try to set up an empire by force, they just move away.

Be kinda funny having our would-be emperors have to try and track down the natives they'd enslave.

Assuming they don't just kill you in your sleep and take your stuff...

[Psychomeltdown]

So you're going to track us down later? When we've got gun-toting Indians as mercenaries? And I'm going far man, I have enough food for a good week-long travel on horseback. And I might go in any direction too. By the time you find us, we'll be worth something enough for the natives to fight for.

Look. A horse can possibly carry 1200 pounds, but that's if its completely loaded, meaning no room for a rider (there' sonly so much room on horse back).

The most you'll get is about 600 pounds on it's back.

260 for you and the missus.
40 for the tack
50 for food/water
that leaves you with barely 250 for other crap.

then again a horse carrying 600 lbs isn't going to be running off anywhere It's going to be walking and with frequent stops. this is why people have remounts, pack horses, etc. You'll only have one horse.

So either you leave a lot of your equipment behind, your wife, and take only drugs and weapons, you'll still be moving pretty slowly. also weapons are pretty bulky, as said before there's only so much space on horseback.

[Shadestorm]

Alright. So I now have a tame buffalo instead of a horse. A flippin' huge buffalo. With a flippin' huge saddle. It'd be right at home. And the ASB's said they would make whatever I wanted. So what's wrong with all my supplies being made with superlight materials?

And if the natives saw me riding in on a buffalo, it'd be easier for them to think me a god. Sweet. Why didn't I think of it earlier?

[Norbert]

I will send you off with the words my father said to me when I left home (Don't come back!)

Good Bye, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out

[Bulgaroktonos]

Take time to watch 'The Man Who Would Be King', starring Sean Connery presenting himself as a God to a African Tribe, and then being killed when they discovered he bled and was mortal...

That was kinda my point. Presenting himself as a cruel god isn't going to fly.

[Bulgaroktonos]

First, an average size tree would be in the neighborhood of 70-90 feet in length if pine, and have an useful diameter of 18-24" for a good portion of its length. I can cut with the help of one other person with a 2-man crosscut a 2-3 foot tree in about 15 to 20 minutes, and saw it into lengths and have ithem ready to be hauled away, with cutting it down in half an hour. Using a chain saw, 15 minutes tops. Also, if we were to use chainsaws, it would take about 2-4 gallons of gasoline to clear 1 acre (depending on the type of wood to be cut, and how that wood is to be cut up. 2-4 gallons per acre cutting for firewood). When I was 16, I regularly moved logs of 8 foot lengths up to 10 inches diameter by myself, and larger logs with the help of my 17 year old brother up to 24 inches diameter.

What I propose is to square logs, which has them easier to fit together, and even if we were to use 12 inch square logs that were 24 feet long, they could be moved by no more than 4 people. It is also not to hard to make a primitive 'crane', just a chain attached to a long pole on a fulcrum. They are not hard to learn how to use either.

What is the density of pine trees in the California Valley? I was assuming we'd be dealing with relatively smaller trees given the relative aridity of the region.

And a chainsaw is a brilliant Idea.

[Glen]

Take time to watch 'The Man Who Would Be King', starring Sean Connery presenting himself as a God to a African Tribe, and then being killed when they discovered he bled and was mortal...

Actually, it was Afgan, not African.

Tried to pass himself off as the son of Alexander the Great or some such...

[Norbert]

What is the density of pine trees in the California Valley? I was assuming we'd be dealing with relatively smaller trees given the relative aridity of the region.

And a chainsaw is a brilliant Idea.


Judging from virgin growth areas I am familiar with, probably about 60 trees per acre at 15 feet between trees, or up to 38,400 trees per square mile. A resource that I have states that it would take 100 mandays to clear an acre using iron age tools. Using a chainsaw, it would probably take three to four days to cut the trees down and into transportable units. Depending on the method of clearing stumps, it would take about one to two weeks to fully clear it. Using crosscut saws, a team of two could cut down the trees in about a week. If a location is chosen wisely, with open meadows, we could get a jump start at some of the planting.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Judging from virgin growth areas I am familiar with, probably about 60 trees per acre at 15 feet between trees, or up to 38,400 trees per square mile. A resource that I have states that it would take 100 mandays to clear an acre using iron age tools. Using a chainsaw, it would probably take three to four days to cut the trees down and into transportable units. Depending on the method of clearing stumps, it would take about one to two weeks to fully clear it. Using crosscut saws, a team of two could cut down the trees in about a week. If a location is chosen wisely, with open meadows, we could get a jump start at some of the planting.

As a question, where are you familiar with?

The climate in the Californian Valley doesn't seem to support large forests, but rather the very scruby trees that do exist there.

[Flocculencio]

As a question, where are you familiar with?

The climate in the Californian Valley doesn't seem to support large forests, but rather the very scruby trees that do exist there.

We've got redwoods in the North Bay right? which is why I suggested moving the colony up to Berkeley- it's more central.

[Flocculencio]

Alright. So I now have a tame buffalo instead of a horse. A flippin' huge buffalo.

Ain't he cute? :D

[Psychomeltdown]

So we've begun then?

Guess first things first. What year and what time of the year have we been Isoted?

1800 people are coming, it seems. 693 large animals, 693 medium animals.

is Ian's apartment still coming with us?

[Nicksplace27]

After the first couple of Weeks, I'll be heading south to set up a new colony near LA. I'll call it the Baja Empire.

[Psychomeltdown]

After the first couple of Weeks, I'll be heading south to set up a new colony near LA. I'll call it the Baja Empire.
We'll need to know who you're taking and what you're taking.

My guess is you leave as soon as possible, because the rules of all animals go into a communal herd will apply, and you foodstuff will be put into Communal Storage.

This is about survival and as things go, the only way to make sure things go right is by taking a firm hold.

[Nicksplace27]

We'll need to know who you're taking and what you're taking.

My guess is you leave as soon as possible, because the rules of all animals go into a communal herd will apply, and you foodstuff will be put into Communal Storage.

This is about survival and as things go, the only way to make sure things go right is by taking a firm hold.

Like I said, I won't just get up and leave after the first day, that would be suicide. I'd like to stay with the group until the settlement is up and running. Then I would request that I and another group move south. I'm an avid fisherman and only need a few hooks to feed a large group. I'm not going very far and I would like to get closer to the Olmec Civilization.

[Psychomeltdown]

Like I said, I won't just get up and leave after the first day, that would be suicide. I'd like to stay with the group until the settlement is up and running. Then I would request that I and another group move south. I'm an avid fisherman and only need a few hooks to feed a large group. I'm not going very far and I would like to get closer to the Olmec Civilization.
Again the Community outweighs what you want to do. So you have your equipment and tools, but no food, no animals.

That is unless the Community Leaders decide otherwise.


Personally I would take the same line with you as with Shadestorm. You're colony may cause us trouble later on, therefore it needs to be negated before it can do any harm to us. You stay more than a few days, then your animals and food will be taken from you. Again, that's just what I'd do.

[Ward]

Again the Community outweighs what you want to do. So you have your equipment and tools, but no food, no animals.

That is unless the Community Leaders decide otherwise.


Personally I would take the same line with you as with Shadestorm. You're colony may cause us trouble later on, therefore it needs to be negated before it can do any harm to us. You stay more than a few days, then your animals and food will be taken from you. Again, that's just what I'd do.



My self I would like a small fishing village set up with in a couple weeks that is a good sorce of food that we will need very soon . I can see them having a few chickens a wagon and a couple horses to pull the wagon . if they are less then 4 hrs from us and send fish back to us every day , I can see us trading milk to them for the fish . As long as they stay as part of are Colony and obay our rules .

[Psychomeltdown]

My self I would like a small fishing village set up with in a couple weeks that is a good sorce of food that we will need very soon . I can see them having a few chickens a wagon and a couple horses to pull the wagon . if they are less then 4 hrs from us and send fish back to us every day , I can see us trading milk to them for the fish . As long as they stay as part of are Colony and obay our rules .
That's what I'm going for two. We'll be setting up smaller outposts and villages due to the fact that we'll be needing a continuos source of wood and food from outlying areas.

But to say that you're going to leave the camp and start your own "empire" well that's a completely different matter.

[Nicksplace27]

That's what I'm going for two. We'll be setting up smaller outposts and villages due to the fact that we'll be needing a continuos source of wood and food from outlying areas.

But to say that you're going to leave the camp and start your own "empire" well that's a completely different matter.

i would Follow the same rules and even send items back that aren't available at our current colony. Thats the purpose of spreading out. Thinking back on it I also wouldn't call it an empire.

[The_Leader]

Any way we could make Poudre B?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poudre

or may be Ballistite?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistite

[Psychomeltdown]

i would Follow the same rules and even send items back that aren't available at our current colony. Thats the purpose of spreading out. Thinking back on it I also wouldn't call it an empire.
it pretty much boils down to this:

You're with us or not.

If you are, then your animals and your food go into the Communal Storage and Herds. This is not negotiable. You get our protection, you get our help, you get our knowledge.

If not, you're on your own. We will not send forces to help you, we will not send supplies to help you, we will not send anything that could potentially take away from our own survival.

Even if you follow the same rules, the same laws, and create everything the same way the Main Settlement does, you're not apart our "our group".

survival is the main driving force.

[Nicksplace27]

I think that if you treat everyone like that, people will leave very quickly. A commune is a good idea, but very few people will want to put it all together. You could have some conflict very soon. Also I think that if we had more contact with Maize Growers and early civilizations to the south, our chances for survival is much better. I will stay with the group for the time bieng.

[Psychomeltdown]

I think that if you treat everyone like that, people will leave very quickly. A commune is a good idea, but very few people will want to put it all together. You could have some conflict very soon. Also I think that if we had more contact with Maize Growers and early civilizations to the south, our chances for survival is much better.
There may be those that don't like the way thing are run, but at this moment it's the only way. Survival is what matters and putting out fates into the hands of those that know what they are doing. The Food and Animals are the most important things. Then those with the knowledge and then weapons.

We're trying to survive here in a land where we have to build EVERYTHING ourselves and that takes a different approach than just letting everyone do what they want. Unfortunately a strong and centralized ruling is needed to do this.

For ex: say you have a cow, you're going to have to feed, water, and care for it. That's going to take a lot of energy on your part. Now, if everyone does that, then no one will be building, clearing, etc. Putting the animals in the hands of those that know how to handle them, that know how to care for them, will free you up to do whatever else is needed, such as logging, farming, clearing.

Now, if you want to head up a fishing village in the SFB and still be apart of the Community, then you can. Like it was said, we'll be needing all the sources of food we can get to make it through the year.

As for contacting Meso America, you know there's a huge desert between us and them and we have no boats, especially anything that can cross the hundred of miles to them, also these are human sacrificing people. I'm not sure a boat riding, strange clothing wearing, metal carrying person will be met with welcome.

I will stay with the group for the time bieng.Then we'll be taking your animals and if you leave, you'll be only taking only what you can carry on your backs or drag with you. It's either you leave now with everything, or leave later minus the animals and food, or not leave at all.

[pisces74]

not definite, but likely... this absolute stranger who looks funny and has a big weird animal is going to ride in with a lot of stuff that they will be drooling to get, kill a bunch of them, get them hooked on drugs (which means that they won't be spending enough time on food gathering), demand overlordship of them (it should be noted that Amerindians of this area have no concept of a permanent king or chief... their chiefs are basically popular guys who make decisions only after long debates involving the other men.. and they're chiefs only so long as everyone agrees on it), and likely spread disease among them... sure, they'll be afraid of his guns at first, but eventually, they'll realize it can only kill them and he's just one man. I really despise the idea that primitive people are so superstitious that a modern man with guns will be automatically regarded as a god... they aren't that stupid, and treating them that way will get you killed...


Since this is the general consensus if how to deal with Shadestorm I'll go against my better judgement and just let him go. but when the army of meth head Chinooks comes raiding our fields I reserve the right to say I told you so. IMO the reason the Chinooks we're so peaceful was that when they were found they had no known contact even with other indian tribes. With Shadestorm going out to fire them up they could very well become the pacific northwest Comanche.

And Shadestorm I don't think buffalo are indiginous to the pacific northwest. ( I may be wrong). so have fun tackling the rockies to get to souix or Navajo territory.

[Flocculencio]

i would Follow the same rules and even send items back that aren't available at our current colony. Thats the purpose of spreading out. Thinking back on it I also wouldn't call it an empire.

Yeah but the trouble here is that if you go all the way down to the LA area sending stuff back is going to be really hard. For the first decade or so we'll probably have to spread out slowly.

There's a difference between sending back shipments from logging and hunting camps that are a week's ride away and sending shipments back from LA. I don't think we'd be able tos pare the men to escort a shpment across such a huge distance.

[Forum Lurker]

Any way we could make Poudre B?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poudre

or may be Ballistite?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistite
Nope. Our best explosive is going to be blackpowder: I know there are guano caves in the California area, charcoal can be made, and sulfur might, maybe, be found at hot springs or in salt domes. If we don't have sulfur, I believe that a sufficiently nitrate-rich powder will still deflagrate with good effect.

[Flocculencio]

Nope. Our best explosive is going to be blackpowder: I know there are guano caves in the California area, charcoal can be made, and sulfur might, maybe, be found at hot springs or in salt domes. If we don't have sulfur, I believe that a sufficiently nitrate-rich powder will still deflagrate with good effect.

Jolly good...this confirms something I was wondering. Our weapons will mostly be black powder rifles then?

[Forum Lurker]

We'll go through our real ammo, first; after that, it depends on whether we can actually find viable sources of sulfur. If we can't, the stuff is too stable to use as a propellant; it'll still be useful for destumping and quarrying, if we're careful.

[Dave Howery]

a lot of people are bringing modern guns and ammo (they really aren't that much weight). Personally, I have a replica Sharps on my list with reloads for the bullets I bring for it... that way, I can shoot off the bullets and reload them later when we get black powder. We're going to need the modern guns at first.. have to put the fear of us into the local wildlife ASAP, or they'll take a lot of our food from us...

[Flocculencio]

a lot of people are bringing modern guns and ammo (they really aren't that much weight). Personally, I have a replica Sharps on my list with reloads for the bullets I bring for it... that way, I can shoot off the bullets and reload them later when we get black powder. We're going to need the modern guns at first.. have to put the fear of us into the local wildlife ASAP, or they'll take a lot of our food from us...

Yeah, I'm bringing Sharps carbines and Colt Army revolvers as my personal weapons. I'd rather stick with something I know can be reloaded and can function with black powder than bring along modern weapons that'll be useless once the ammo runs out.

[Dave Howery]

Yeah, I'm bringing Sharps carbines and Colt Army revolvers as my personal weapons. I'd rather stick with something I know can be reloaded and can function with black powder than bring along modern weapons that'll be useless once the ammo runs out.
well, be careful... any black powder cartridge reload, you have to have primers for them, and it's probably gonna be a long time before we can make those. For my Sharps, I'm taking 500 rounds and 500 reloading primers and lead shot... thus, I'll have at most 1000 shots before it's useless.. I'm thinking of it mostly as a "need it for the first year" weapon... after that, I fall back on my muzzleloading Hawken... if we can get black powder and lead, that'll always be usefull...

[Ward]

Yeah, I'm bringing Sharps carbines and Colt Army revolvers as my personal weapons. I'd rather stick with something I know can be reloaded and can function with black powder than bring along modern weapons that'll be useless once the ammo runs out.


Well yop untill I had my stroke I was using the same box of 20 rounds for 8 years plus I usely got my deer .

[Bulgaroktonos]

I don't think casings will be too hard to produce, at least for early breechloading blackpowder guns such as the Lee-Metford. Simply collect what casings we have, and those of us that move into smithing can melt it down/recast it/etc. I think that if we put our minds to it, we can have bullets and cartridges for the older guns rather quickly.

[Darkest]

We cannot start the game now!

Do not start the game now, we have no stability right now. I promise you, the game will collapse if we start this early. I've seen it happen many times.

We have so much progress, to start now would kill the game very soon.

Minimum Amount of Things To Do Before We Start

AT LEAST, complete the following items before we start:

Finish Censuses, to determine the size of the group and what kind of people are coming. Almost done with this.

Master Inventory, a thread to catalogue all the stuff that is coming.

A Rule Thread, to detail how the game will be played. You can't just start and say, "Well let's start playing." This is very important. How will roleplaying work? How much allowance do you have controlling NPCs? How do we determine random events? (how do we know when we will meet Indians or Wildlife, those are events that aren't controlled by one player) How much does one day in REAL TIME mean in GAME TIME.

Please do not do this yet. Trust me.

[Psychomeltdown]

Yeah, I'm bringing Sharps carbines and Colt Army revolvers as my personal weapons. I'd rather stick with something I know can be reloaded and can function with black powder than bring along modern weapons that'll be useless once the ammo runs out.
Well the only reason I'm taking modern rifles is that we'll be hunting the hell out of the wildlife and whatever we can find. We'll need weapons that can fire fast and accurately for that. Beyond that. I figure I can trade/buy a blackpowder rifle later, if one is willing to sale it...

[Dave Howery]

I don't think casings will be too hard to produce, at least for early breechloading blackpowder guns such as the Lee-Metford. Simply collect what casings we have, and those of us that move into smithing can melt it down/recast it/etc. I think that if we put our minds to it, we can have bullets and cartridges for the older guns rather quickly.
no, we could probably do the casings... it's the primers that worry me...

[Psychomeltdown]

no, we could probably do the casings... it's the primers that worry me...
I'll add some primers to my list, how much do they weight?

[Dave Howery]

I'll add some primers to my list, how much do they weight?
not much.. they're small.. you could fit hundreds in a shoe box...
but they're specific to a certain bullet, so you have to list which ones... and this is for only black powder cartridges.. you do NOT want to mess around with reloading smokeless powder.. that stuff, you have to measure out exactly... black powder is a lot more forgiving...
My primers are going to fit the 45-70 cartridges for my replica Sharps...

[Bulgaroktonos]

no, we could probably do the casings... it's the primers that worry me...

More in the manufacturing of the primers, or the required materials for the primer itself. In the former, I think we may be able to set up the Boxer system with out a hell of a lot of problems, but procuring potassium chlorate might be harder.

[Forum Lurker]

I'm fairly certain we're not going to see the chemical industry needed to make primers in a generation. They're very tricky things, being both unstable and high-energy.

[Norbert]

I'm fairly certain we're not going to see the chemical industry needed to make primers in a generation. They're very tricky things, being both unstable and high-energy.


Book I planned on Bringing: 'Chemical Processes 1880', tells of the set-up and production of different chemical types from 1880. Also (though it will take longer to produce them) is a book on Steam Powered engines from the same period.

[Forum Lurker]

Actually, steam engines are much easier to make than chemical labs. All you need for a steam engine is a decent copper-working industry; it's not going to be wonderfully efficient without precision steel manufacture, but it'll do some of what needs to be done.

[SionEwig]

I'll add some primers to my list, how much do they weight?

Most primers, especially if you cut down on their packaging, run arount 5000/lb.

Don't forget a mould for the 45-70 slugs (1 lb).

[SionEwig]

We cannot start the game now!

Do not start the game now, we have no stability right now. I promise you, the game will collapse if we start this early. I've seen it happen many times.

We have so much progress, to start now would kill the game very soon.

Minimum Amount of Things To Do Before We Start

AT LEAST, complete the following items before we start:

Finish Censuses, to determine the size of the group and what kind of people are coming. Almost done with this.

Master Inventory, a thread to catalogue all the stuff that is coming.

A Rule Thread, to detail how the game will be played. You can't just start and say, "Well let's start playing." This is very important. How will roleplaying work? How much allowance do you have controlling NPCs? How do we determine random events? (how do we know when we will meet Indians or Wildlife, those are events that aren't controlled by one player) How much does one day in REAL TIME mean in GAME TIME.

Please do not do this yet. Trust me.

YES, YES, YES.

And at least some of this stuff will need to be agreed on by the players. I would estimate that we might could really start in about a week.

[Darkest]

I'm glad you think so Sion. However, even though I share your opinion that we should have a week to get ready for even the First Day, I propose a compromise to start a little earlier, for people who want to start immediately.

We could probably start tonight or tomorrow if we get on the ball.

[Psychomeltdown]

there's a bit of a thing called over build up. People will get a bit tired of waiting around for the game to start and then they'll bail because it's taking too long.

I'm ready.
I have my list.
I have my plan.

[Darkest]

Can you wait until tomorrow to give people who might not be here right now the chance to plan ahead?

I don't want to wait more than 24 hours to start this game, just because of the reason you mentioned. Alterverse had a lot of support initially, but we overdid the details and debated forever, and it died. I do not want to repeat that mistake.

But we really need to get some basic rules nailed to the wall first. And that will take at least 24 hours.

[SionEwig]

I'm glad you think so Sion. However, even though I share your opinion that we should have a week to get ready for even the First Day, I propose a compromise to start a little earlier, for people who want to start immediately.

We could probably start tonight or tomorrow if we get on the ball.

No problem, :) , I just call 'em like I see 'em. Heck, I still haven't heard a decision on what the food amount (in days) was. That will probably make a big difference in a lot of people lists, cause most are only carrying enough for less than 30 days.

The following is going to be posted in multiple of the threads so that hopefully everybody will see it.

Using the lightest weight food I could come up with while also taking into account maximizing nutritional value (and you won't really get any lighter than this), I figured on using Mountain Home freeze dried food.

For 3000 cal./day - 2.5 lbs (75 lbs/30 days)
For 2000 cal./day - 1 2/3 lbs (50 lbs/30 days)
For 1500 cal./day - 1.25 lbs (37.5 lbs/30 days)

[Ward]

YES, YES, YES.

And at least some of this stuff will need to be agreed on by the players. I would estimate that we might could really start in about a week.



Rember we are RP ourself if this happen to us with in 24 hrs . And what we are going to do .

Thats part of the reason we are starting today as the first day.


I can see us yelling and screaming at each other for the first couple of days. Hell we might have a few people kill themself if this happen to them .

[Norbert]

I think Monday afternoon to start at the earliest.

[Glen]

I need to know, did the ASBs do anything to fix any medical conditions, or are people coming 'as is'.

If they are, we're going to have some problems early on.

From another game similar to this one I am in, we had the ASBs fix all medical conditions on arrival. Simplified things and allowed us to focus on roleplay rather than people dying from their pre-existing conditions.

[Ward]

I need to know, did the ASBs do anything to fix any medical conditions, or are people coming 'as is'.

If they are, we're going to have some problems early on.

From another game similar to this one I am in, we had the ASBs fix all medical conditions on arrival. Simplified things and allowed us to focus on roleplay rather than people dying from their pre-existing conditions.


All Medical problems are fixed , we are helthy and all medical conditions have be cleared up . Like Lurker little brother no longer has CP .

[Scarecrow]

All Medical problems are fixed , we are helthy and all medical conditions have be cleared up . Like Lurker little brother no longer has CP .
is the fix a genetic thing so our kids wont inherit things such as Asthma?

[Ward]

is the fix a genetic thing so our kids wont inherit things such as Asthma?


Yes as far as I'm concerned

[Glen]

Works for me...

...and actually, we should have the ASBs decontaminate us. Maybe have it take us a week or so to realize that NO ONE has the sniffles. That would make it easier on the Native Americans, and simplify our initial lives....

[Psychomeltdown]

Works for me...

...and actually, we should have the ASBs decontaminate us. Maybe have it take us a week or so to realize that NO ONE has the sniffles. That would make it easier on the Native Americans, and simplify our initial lives....
I'll second that motion.

[Forum Lurker]

I hope they also fix my vision; it's not lethal, but having 20/300 vision and no lensgrinding facilities isn't pleasant.

[Ward]

I hope they also fix my vision; it's not lethal, but having 20/300 vision and no lensgrinding facilities isn't pleasant.


Yes if you have your glass on you are having a hard time seeing for your eyesight is now 20/20

[SionEwig]

All Medical problems are fixed , we are helthy and all medical conditions have be cleared up . Like Lurker little brother no longer has CP .

And my oldest is no longer diabetic (YEAH)!!!:)

[jolo]

I missed out on the fun of the last 30 hours.

Site was down when I was logged in - could see you but not talk.

Anything important happening?

[Hendryk]

I agree with a suggestion made earlier about housing: Scandinavian-type semi-buried houses are the most convenient form of accommodation we can hope for until we get organized. It requires much less timber to build as anything with a roof on it, and earth makes for great thermal insulation.

[jolo]

I agree with a suggestion made earlier about housing: Scandinavian-type semi-buried houses are the most convenient form of accommodation we can hope for until we get organized. It requires much less timber to build as anything with a roof on it, and earth makes for great thermal insulation.

Additionally, it would have the advantage of being more fire resistant, in case of attacks by Amerindians or fighting among us.

Though the first few days (or even weeks), the tents should be enough.

I also suppose even if it's very cold, one fire for 10 to 20 people should be sufficient, and all tents will be full enough to generate enough heat to avoid cooling too much.

[Scarecrow]

Additionally, it would have the advantage of being more fire resistant, in case of attacks by Amerindians or fighting among us.

Though the first few days (or even weeks), the tents should be enough.

I also suppose even if it's very cold, one fire for 10 to 20 people should be sufficient, and all tents will be full enough to generate enough heat to avoid cooling too much.
perhaps a stockade needs to be built?

[Norbert]

perhaps a stockade needs to be built?

Once a permenant location is found, a stockade would be important. I think a layout such as the medieval manor with a palisaded area would be a good way to go. We will also needto get material for fencing for the livestock to be kept in at night.

[jolo]

perhaps a stockade needs to be built?

Ian's home will be a good temporary stockade for the first 1 or 2 weeks. The rest is up to the main settlement - enough pros there.

[Hendryk]

Ian's home will be a good temporary stockade for the first 1 or 2 weeks.
Perhaps Ian's place could be set up as a colonial-style strong house? How long would it take to build one?

Incidentally, it would be fun to have the site become, in time, a thriving community. Centuries later people would wonder why this town has such a name as Ian's Apartment. Well, beats Martha's Vineyard any day of the week.

[Doctor What]

If I might interject a few things here?....

This looks like a cool game and I've given Ward permission to role-play me but give me an opportunity here to show off my anthropology/psychology degrees here and give you people just a quick course on what to expect in california c.3000 BC

The Natives in Southern California are experimenting with a great many things and adapting to a great many changes:

Southern California Early Period (6000-1000 BC).

-Sea level rose 50 feet by 4000 BC so many early sites beneath sea; but don't see rapid population rise until c. 3500 BC. A period of complex environmental changes (rising sea levels, kelp bed fluctuations, etc). Many current maps of the region are going to be, sadly, inaccurate--especially when it comes to locations and sizes of rivers and lakes and stuff.

- A seasonal cycle develops by 3500 BC in which fall nut and seed harvests alternate with shellfishing, sea mammal hunting, and fishing at other periods; population size increases; mortars and pestles (greater acorn exploitation), and greater emphasis on fishing and sea mammal hunting, after 3500 BC.

-Semi-subterranean pithouses with numerous manes and metates at larger seasonal basecamps. Some dead buried in red-ocher sprinkled graves.

Generally speaking--An Archaic way of life---hunting deer and mountain sheep, fishing, netting migratory birds, harvesting pine nuts and wild grains-developed by 8000 BC and persisted with no radical changes until about AD 1850.

Villages were simple, with thatched houses, and in the warm months little clothing was worn.

The technology of getting, processing, and storing food was sophisticated. Basketry was developed into a true art.

On the California coast, people fished and hunted sea lions, dolphins, and other sea mammals from boats; the wealth of resources stimulated a well-regulated trade using shell money

- California was the most densely populated of the United States at the time of European arrival with a population of approximately 150,000 (1.5 persons per square mile). This was in spite of the fact that all of the California tribes were hunter/gatherers except for the farmers along the Colorado River. The dense population was the product of the relatively peaceful nature of the California tribes and the bountiful supply of fish, game, and edible vegetation, and natural boundaries created by the relatively irregular terrain. Please note that 150,000 population figure is at the time of European contact--expect that number to be rather lower at 3000 BC.

Regarding Shadestorm's plan to go out and conquer the local population--good luck--he's going to need it.

-150,000 natives living in the entire state of california and all of them at hunter/gatherer or fishing village level means that he can go days before he meets the first group of natives. Also note that--generally speaking--a village of hunter-gatherers is considered 'very large' if it has a population of 200 people or so. 'Very large' villages will exist only if there's an immense amount of food in the area or they have really fantastic leader(s) or there's some other factor that can convince so many people to stay together. The more likely figure will be 30-50 people (i.e. half a dozen families or so).

-He will be using marijuana and opium to convert the natives. The natives in the area have had zero experience with even the concept of smoking, so he's going to have his work cut out for him convincing them to try it. Considering that he has no ability to speak to them beyond very simple gestures, I see this as nearly impossible.

-While the natives may have primitive tech, they DO know how to handle a spear. If Shadestorm does try to pull his 'I am a God--worship me' stunt by showing up on a buffalo, firing a couple of shots from his rifle and blaring his boombox, the odds are that this will be the likely scenario:

1) Women and children run screaming into the woods

2) The hunters of the group are going to freak out at this appearance.

Hmmm...freaked out young males armed with spears...anybody care to wager how likely one (or more) of these guys are going to chuck a spear at the 'spirit' just on general principles? Now Shadestorm could start blowing away some of the natives. Congratulations--he's just killed 1/4 of the tribe and caused the other 3/4 to run into the woods. If those survivors hook up with other groups, word will spread of an 'evil lightning firing spirit' killing people--how likely do you think the odds are that a bunch of experienced and angry hunters are going to see if they can destroy him? How likely do you think that the natives are actually going to worship him now?

-But assume that he does manage to convert them to dopeheads. Having had some experience with smoking marijuana myself and knowing people who have had smoked opium and/or shot up heroin, let me assure you that these drugs can not--by any stretch of the imagination--be considered 'performance enhancing drugs'.

Hope all this helped out you guys.

[Darkest]

Very good information, Doctor What, like always. You have no idea how much that will help us! :)

[Shadestorm]

Evil lightning firing spirit eh? I kinda like the sound of that!

But thanks for the info. It'll help me restructure my strategy.

[Doctor What]

Evil lightning firing spirit eh? I kinda like the sound of that!

But thanks for the info. It'll help me restructure my strategy.

Sure--go ahead. Good luck.

If I was a betting man, tho, I'll say that you won't survive more than six months....

[Straha]

Why not a discussion on what happened on the other side of the portal(the split off 2005 AD where everyone who joined any AH forums are gone). We'd likely see a government investigation and attempts to find and eventually beat the ASBs. We'd likely see ASB motifs in popular culture. MAybe another lovecraft style writer emerges who brings ASBs to the mainstream. We'd see a major uprise in paranoia/fear/reactionary beliefs in the countries with large numbers of missing AH.commers. I might write some stories about the split off 2005 earth a few decades after the AH.commers vanish.

[Straha]

I wonder how the colony is going to develop? Even if the colony falls into anarchy/ruin IT would still be an inteesting world. I think the long-term effects wouldn't change the world outside of the americas until after 1492. The difference would be that the european invaders would be facing white indians(I think about 4000 years of isolation and the eventual mixing of the AH.commer population with the natives would at least mean that the "natives" would be white but still look different from the europeans) who are armed with middle ages level tech, have the whole eurasian package of crops/domestic animals, have diseases of their own(again we'd be in close proximinity to domestic animals so we'd see diseases jumping and we'd be isolated enough for our flu/cold strains to mutate to something NASTY to the europeans), some features of european civilization(I don't think we'd lose things like cowboy hats, stirrups, distillation) and speak languages that all split off from english(even in our high-tech world of OTL US/british english diverged so in a lower tech epansion we'd see eventual languages forming). Unlike OTL due to higher levels of medical tech than OTL's native civilizations there'd be much less of a dieoff so we'd see the europeans not getting to take over much of the new world and several "native" empires being formed.

[Imajin]

Introducing horses (some are going to get out) into the native cultures will have some major effects... By 1492, even assuming AH.Com fails and falls apart, the Natives are likely at least the level of Europe- probably ahead if our colony survives. Original AH.Commers go into myths and legends...

[Straha]

Introducing horses (some are going to get out) into the native cultures will have some major effects... By 1492, even assuming AH.Com fails and falls apart, the Natives are likely at least the level of Europe- probably ahead if our colony survives. Original AH.Commers go into myths and legends...
Yeah. That's why I see the americas in this TL as being equal to europe when they meet. The Natives likely have a big dieoff as OTL due to disease and rampages by wannabe AH.commers/their descendent warlords. However, the surviving natives would be assimilated into the new AH.commer civilization so we'd see absorption of the natives more by intermarriages/assimilation rather than wiping them out(another reason why I said that we'd have white "natives" by 1492).

[Flocculencio]

Original AH.Commers go into myths and legends...

I shall tell you now of the Gods of our Forefathers

First and mightiest, Ward, King of the Gods, Bringer of the Harvest

...Weppenem, God of the Hunt, He who leads the deer to his devoted servants

...Embarriee, The Lightning God of Justice warring against those who would cause chaos, with Flok the Thunder God of Righteous Anger, dark of complexion, riding at his side

...Ztrhaaar, The Mellow God, Guardian of the calming herb...

[Straha]

I shall tell you now of the Gods of our Forefathers

First and mightiest, Ward, King of the Gods, Bringer of the Harvest

...Weppenem, God of the Hunt, He who leads the deer to his devoted servants

...Embarriee, The Lightning God of Justice warring against those who would cause chaos, with Flok the Thunder God of Righteous Anger, dark of complexion, riding at his side

...Ztrhaaar, The Mellow God, Guardian of the calming herb...
LOL! The Ztrhaaar religion likely is a state religion of some nations in the carribean/gulf of mexicio area.

[Straha]

We likely have Genghis Collins doing raids from the southwestern deserts as far south as Ztrhaar City(mexico city), as far north as Wa'hrdburg(st. louis) and far eas as biloxi.

[Flocculencio]

Yes...the travelling warrior clerics of Flok (whose emblematic clothes are the waistcoat and fedora) patrol the lands of the Board (the continent known in OTL as North America :)) tirelessly but sometimes raiders get past them.

[Ward]

I shall tell you now of the Gods of our Forefathers

First and mightiest, Ward, King of the Gods, Bringer of the Harvest

...Weppenem, God of the Hunt, He who leads the deer to his devoted servants

...Embarriee, The Lightning God of Justice warring against those who would cause chaos, with Flok the Thunder God of Righteous Anger, dark of complexion, riding at his side

...Ztrhaaar, The Mellow God, Guardian of the calming herb...


Dont forget Glens God of health and Birth

And Iron Yuppie God of stong women

[Straha]

I see the warrior clerics of Flok establishing a nation where its nice and warm but not TOO hot like in the uplands of southern mexico where the weather is pleasant.

[Flocculencio]

I see the warrior clerics of Flok establishing a nation where its nice and warm but not TOO hot like in the uplands of southern mexico where the weather is pleasant.

Sounds good...or maybe at the site of Mexico city itself. It'll be something like the Shaolin Temple where apprentices come for their training and are then sent out across the Board to preserve justice and help the weak.

[Matt]

Dont forget Glens God of health and Birth

And Iron Yuppie God of stong women


You mean Lennfeenly- God of Health and Birth

[Straha]

Sounds good...or maybe at the site of Mexico city itself. It'll be something like the Shaolin Temple where apprentices come for their training and are then sent out across the Board to preserve justice and help the weak.
Why not? The religion of Ztrhaaar would not have any problems with the clerics of Flok.

On another note... I'm going to possibly do a series of short stories set in a world where the "we go on a trip" event happens with a twist but the AH.commers are sent to the 4000 BC of a different north america(the ASBs adjust supplies accordingly to fit the warmer climate) and they also have to live with the Imperial Gang(Not just the imperials, even people who just happen to live in their neighborhood/fought them(go to my WDC site and this also even includes people from their past)) and all of their family/friends/supplies being snet ot the past with them.

[Doctor What]

And Daktor Waat -God of Diplomacy :rolleyes:

Btw--found a map of the various tribes in the California that you people might find useful. Bear in mind that this map cover a great deal of time and are just guesses but it should give you an idea of the range of cultures that exist in california.

http://www.mip.berkeley.edu/cilc_images/bibs/maps/tribemap.gif

[pisces74]

Can we get a grid on the game map we're using, for help with development.

also if any of the mods needs help with random events I've got quite a few random development charts laying around my rpg collection. One could say I excel at random.

Really, I'd be all for things going right now as they are with these things hammered out. More time spent developing the "rules" beyond that also allows us more time to develop the game community ooc, which IMO lessens the fun of a chaos ISOT.

[schrammy]

well sins every one is claiming its god titles so do i schrammy god of science

[Bulgaroktonos]

Happily my name translates readily into godliness...

[Glen]

Yeah. That's why I see the americas in this TL as being equal to europe when they meet. The Natives likely have a big dieoff as OTL due to disease and rampages by wannabe AH.commers/their descendent warlords.

Not really. The biggest killer we aren't introducing...smallpox.

However, the surviving natives would be assimilated into the new AH.commer civilization so we'd see absorption of the natives more by intermarriages/assimilation rather than wiping them out(another reason why I said that we'd have white "natives" by 1492).

The demographics say light-eyed native americans rather than 'white' indians.

[Othniel]

Not really. The biggest killer we aren't introducing...smallpox.



The demographics say light-eyed native americans rather than 'white' indians.Which animal is it that smallpox comes from? Wasn't it pigs?

[Bulgaroktonos]

Which animal is it that smallpox comes from? Wasn't it pigs?

Cows. Cowpox is how we developed the vaccine IIRC.

[Glen]

And Daktor Waat -God of Diplomacy :rolleyes:

Btw--found a map of the various tribes in the California that you people might find useful. Bear in mind that this map cover a great deal of time and are just guesses but it should give you an idea of the range of cultures that exist in california.

http://www.mip.berkeley.edu/cilc_images/bibs/maps/tribemap.gif

That map is likely to mean nothing in 3000 BCE...but it is nice to have some thoughts out there about the tribes.

[The_Leader]

Read something a few months back.In american scientific journal i think.On them try to save some south americian cat.That for any animal inculdeing man there needs to be at least 30 couple sets. to be genetically viable.???Know i dont exactly know if that means pair(15/15) or actual sets(60/60).I would lean to the latter as that what seems to me to be a "couple set".

And on that note about the animals to have. On the donkeys and oxen.Dont think we should have alot of donkeys.Or at least way more females then males.As we could cross them with horses and get mules( even thou there sterile)NO female OXEN They are castrated steers surprise!!!!!

Also my.02 would has going to post this earlier but didnt get to.Would have like the "Frist days" to be more like a reconnoitre. To be able to give us a better idea of what is there seeing how every one wants to know what to bring.

[Doctor What]

Read something a few months back.In american scientific journal i think.On them try to save some south americian cat.That for any animal inculdeing man there needs to be at least 30 couple sets. to be genetically viable.???Know i dont exactly know if that means pair(15/15) or actual sets(60/60).I would lean to the latter as that what seems to me to be a "couple set".

50/500 rule I believe is what you're talking about.

For short-term survival (i.e. ~ 5 generations), 50 individuals are needed before inbreeding becomes a problem.

For long-term survival (i.e. more or less 'forever'), 500 individuals will be enough to avoid any serious inbreeding problems.

This is, of course, merely a very rough rule of thumb--different animals will have different numbers under different circumstances. This rule is used merely if you want to make some rough calculations.

[Psychomeltdown]

That map is likely to mean nothing in 3000 BCE...but it is nice to have some thoughts out there about the tribes.
Well any map we have might mean nothing, afterall rivers change, steams dry up, etc.

I guess we'll have to make a map based upon Now's SFB and work from there.

[Dave Howery]

?? is inbreeding likely to be a problem with our band? We have over 450 couples who are mostly not related, IIRC, from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds... about as mixed genetics as humans ever get...

[Doctor What]

?? is inbreeding likely to be a problem with our band? We have over 450 couples who are mostly not related, IIRC, from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds... about as mixed genetics as humans ever get...

Don't forget that some of the board's descendents will also be interbreeding with the local population as well.

Seriously doubt we have any inbreeding issues to deal with.

The ethnic make-up of the Band will end up looking....interesting....in a few hundred years.

[Darkest]

So... I've been gone for a while (20 hours, I suppose?). Don't school, sports, and dinner parties suck?

What has happened? Please, someone give me a summary. Are people roleplaying realistically, or are we still calling each other by their AH.com username and just wandering around in a crowd of 3000 people?

Any ventures described by the conquistadors?

[Straha]

Don't forget that some of the board's descendents will also be interbreeding with the local population as well.

Seriously doubt we have any inbreeding issues to deal with.

The ethnic make-up of the Band will end up looking....interesting....in a few hundred years.
Don't forget the effects of isolation from other people of european descent as a factor. sure by 1492 the "natives" of the new world may be white but they'd obviously look different than europeans with different eye colors being common(perhaps yellow eyes become common? as a result of the people with lighter eyes mixing with the dark eyed natives)

[Forum Lurker]

Remember that humans mate assortatively by physical appearance. Until we have major intermarriage with the natives, our descendants will look like a whole hodgepodge of ethnicities (as they will be); even afterwards, certain traits will still be preserved beyond all probability, because rare traits are desireable, particularly when they're associated with an elite. Expect red hair and blue eyes, in particular, to crop up now and then even millenia down the road.

[Ward]

So... I've been gone for a while (20 hours, I suppose?). Don't school, sports, and dinner parties suck?

What has happened? Please, someone give me a summary. Are people roleplaying realistically, or are we still calling each other by their AH.com username and just wandering around in a crowd of 3000 people?

Any ventures described by the conquistadors?


People are starting to role play .

And things are starting to orgnized . And the 48 hrs has work out well for this day .
Read the treads and we have the weather for day 2 up and what the major events happing for people .

The groups that have left the group have there P.M's about what is happening to them that they can respond to .

[Straha]

Remember that humans mate assortatively by physical appearance. Until we have major intermarriage with the natives, our descendants will look like a whole hodgepodge of ethnicities (as they will be); even afterwards, certain traits will still be preserved beyond all probability, because rare traits are desireable, particularly when they're associated with an elite. Expect red hair and blue eyes, in particular, to crop up now and then even millenia down the road.
Yes but that hodgepodge of ethnicities and the natives are basically all we'd have to mix with. no more newcomers until 1492. That's why I postulate subtle changes in appearence like yellow and gold eyes becoming common due to lack of more europeans coming in and bringing the gene pool back to european "normality". for example the common shade of blue for the blue eyes would be pretty different than the european ones. Same with the red hair. Thanks to people of MANY ethnic groups being brought together in one expect rarer traits like purple or red eyes to pop up too due to isolation.

[Straha]

Thanks to the fact that the AH.commers all come form a time where humanity has evolved some resistance to alcohol poisoning and is starting to do the same for tobacco/other smokable drugs, the "natives" come 1492 of the americans will be able to drink Columbus and his boys under the table easilly.

[Norbert]

Thanks to the fact that the AH.commers all come form a time where humanity has evolved some resistance to alcohol poisoning and is starting to do the same for tobacco/other smokable drugs, the "natives" come 1492 of the americans will be able to drink Columbus and his boys under the table easilly.


To bad its about 4 and half thousand years away, though if we can develop and keep a tech base, Our descendents may be going to Europe and taking charge!

[Darkest]

What I Would Like To Get Done Today Or Tomorrow, Real-Time
- Post a Day Two Thread, with a summary of Day One's events and some colorful prose added as well.

- See what moderators of the Shared World forum would like to create a moderation council to deal with unbelievability during roleplay, post the reactions of NPCs, and generally organize things.

- As well as a Day Two thread for the main group, I would like to post a Conquistador Roleplaying Thread for the main conquistador group, as well as a Deserters Roleplaying Thread for people who leave the main group but don't want to conquer anything. Because they will be interacting with the world much more, they will be subject to more moderation from the council I hope to set up, to determine the reactions of Native Americans, the setting around them, how fast they can travel, ect.

Later, I would like to get:
- A Calendar Thread so we know how one day of real-time computes with game time.
- A New Person Thread, detailing what they need to know to figure out what they bring.
- A Guidelines on Roleplaying Thread, just to post hints for those that may not know how.
- A Main Inventory Thread, to figure out the main colony's inventory, including 'large items'. We'll update this every day with a running total of the amount of food we have.
- A Census on Race (any objections?)
- A Census on Religion (any objections?)
- Redo the Chat Thread (a little long, we should start up a new one).
- Perhaps a 'General Meeting' Thread to roleplay arguments and decisions we make that apply to the real world?

[Straha]

To bad its about 4 and half thousand years away, though if we can develop and keep a tech base, Our descendents may be going to Europe and taking charge!
Now that would be interesting... europe being invaded by oceanic versions of genghis khan... from the WEST and by white men nonetheless. I wonder how the catholic church would rationalize THAT?

[Shadestorm]

So if you read my most recent roleplay... I gave up the drugs. Because I don't think I would bring drugs if I was really there. And because you guys kept saying it would fail.

Congratulations! No army of comanches! Just a normal army!

[Norbert]

Question for everyone: Who is going to decide if the NPCs are bringing big stuff with them? Figure out how many people have posted equipment, calculate how much weight the NPCs have allocated to them, and use a percentage of that total for the heavy stuff?

[SionEwig]

Question for everyone: Who is going to decide if the NPCs are bringing big stuff with them? Figure out how many people have posted equipment, calculate how much weight the NPCs have allocated to them, and use a percentage of that total for the heavy stuff?

I had made a suggestion a couple of days ago that each family group kick in 10 lbs of their allowance for large items to be brought (that would be what, some odd 6000 lbs?), but I guess it wasn't adopted.

[Doctor What]

Yes but that hodgepodge of ethnicities and the natives are basically all we'd have to mix with. no more newcomers until 1492. That's why I postulate subtle changes in appearence like yellow and gold eyes becoming common due to lack of more europeans coming in and bringing the gene pool back to european "normality". for example the common shade of blue for the blue eyes would be pretty different than the european ones. Same with the red hair. Thanks to people of MANY ethnic groups being brought together in one expect rarer traits like purple or red eyes to pop up too due to isolation.

Uh...what? Red eyes? Yellow eyes? Dude--eye color is eye color around the world--we even know the genes responsible for eye color:

Light blue/gray 0 dominant alleles
Blue 1 dominant allele
Blue-green 2 dominant alleles
hazel 3 dominant alleles
Light brown 4 dominant alleles
Brown 5 dominant alleles
Dark brown / black 6 dominant alleles

That's pretty much it. Unless there's some really bizarro mutation that crops up, those are the eye colors we'll have 5000 years down the line.

But you're right about the lack of 'new' Old World genes for the next several thousand years--eventually the local population will start to wash out our gene pool--but the key word here is 'eventually'. Five hundred couples and god knows how many kids and siblings along for the ride (btw--someone should make a survey about exactly how many 'families' are coming along) means that we can stay isolated from the local population for centuries if we so desire. Just like people everywhere, personal standards of attractiveness are going to come into the picture. There might be some families that might stay 'Old Stock' for centuries and some families that are going to interbreed with the locals first chance they get. With the very eclectic ethnicity we have among the group, there's going to be weird mixes (blue-eyed, blonde haired blacks; whites with black 'afros', etc--see parts of South America where blacks, natives and europeans have been intermingling together so much that there's actually different terms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terms_for_multiraciality) for all the different mixes). Many of those genes--like Forum Lurker said--will crop up from time to time even thousands of years down the line. Remember--there's at least 1000 ah.commers and 'only' 100 000 natives (scattered throughout an entire state)--the genes of the ah.commers are going to make a big splash in the local gene pool for many, many generations.

[pisces74]

If we can't get a grid map can we at least sticky the map we're using atm?

[jolo]

Under any fairly normal circumstances, we should have todays tech after a few generations - especially if we keep integrating Amerindians to get the necessary population sizes quickly. The books will also survive us and give our settlement big advantages. It might even be less than 50 years before we start mass producing our own computers.

Also, we'll have lots of trade with China and Europe pretty soon. Even Africa, looking at the interests of some people here. Expect immigrants from all over the world after a 100 years or less.

[Forum Lurker]

I think you vastly underestimate the physical infrastructure needed. To build a computer, we need a whole host of micromachines, which need minimachines for their manufacture, which can only be built with precision machine tools. At the very least, we will need to build the machines to build the machines to build the machines to build the computers; that's ignoring the machines we need to build in order to build the machines which extract the materials for the computers, and the machines we need to build in order to build the machines which refine the materials for the computers, let alone the machines we need to build in order to produce the materials for all of these tooling machines. Get the idea? Lots and lots of machines. Given that assimilation will take at least two generations, our working population for the next fifty years is less than 5000 people; even if we could get all of our non-technological needs taken care of by the natives, 5000 people can't rebuild a tech base in fifty years that took three centuries to build with all of the might of Europe and America behind it, even if we know exactly what we need to do.

[Bulgaroktonos]

I don't know. With an agriculturally based population of 1200(?) we can expect a full population of 1700 by November, with a relative boom every 9 months or so. So we should have a working population of 3000 within a decade or so.

Shipbuilding will be easier than computers, IMHO.

[jolo]

I think you vastly underestimate the physical infrastructure needed. To build a computer, we need a whole host of micromachines, which need minimachines for their manufacture, which can only be built with precision machine tools. At the very least, we will need to build the machines to build the machines to build the machines to build the computers; that's ignoring the machines we need to build in order to build the machines which extract the materials for the computers, and the machines we need to build in order to build the machines which refine the materials for the computers, let alone the machines we need to build in order to produce the materials for all of these tooling machines. Get the idea? Lots and lots of machines. Given that assimilation will take at least two generations, our working population for the next fifty years is less than 5000 people; even if we could get all of our non-technological needs taken care of by the natives, 5000 people can't rebuild a tech base in fifty years that took three centuries to build with all of the might of Europe and America behind it, even if we know exactly what we need to do.

I believe we're gonna get a lot of Amerindians in our cities if we let them. Therefore, populations should double every few years, up until we have a group of cities counting several hundred thousand people together. That should allow enough specialization.

Also, there appear to be enough specialists and generalists with enough abilities to quickly have a broad industrial base - chemistry, medicin, metal industry, and so on. From that, we'll quickly have simple electronics, a vehicle industry, communications, photography, and so on. The first simple programmable circuits for industrial purposes should be done after a few decades. And 50 years is more time than many third world countries needed.

And while ship building is easier, we'll probably only build small boats at the beginning - after some time, wooden ships may be built for the first contact with China. Once we reach the Gulf or the East Coast, we can contact Europe and Africa. If there's no large ships by then in our main settlement.

[schrammy]

i was thining if we take our population it would be somewhare around 1000 main colony and 120 people that leave.

the native population should at best be no more than 100.000 but likely fewer than this.

even if we do our best to help the native people to survive the diseases that we bring them it is unlikely that we can prvent all of it say instead of 90% losses are 50% due to our intervention and of those 50.000 another 10% dies due to direct or indirect contact with the 120 people that take of on there own.

that would leave some where around 1200 of us and 45000 of them to interbreed, these numbers are rather favorable for the natives and i suspect the numbers to be closer to 1