[ALT] We're all going on a little trip...

[Dave Howery]

Once again, those wacky ASBs wake us up in the middle of the night to tell us that we are all going to be ISOT'd into the past, and to get ready. The rules are:

Only you and your immediate family are going along: spouse/S.O., dependent children. If you don't have anyone to go along, the ASBs will provide you a free clone of any celebrity or other person you find appealing. The clone will be devoted to you, and vice versa (the ASBs don't want us to get lonely)...

You are allowed to take along one large domestic animal (horse, cow/ox, mule, burro). The animal will be docile and not run away, and it will carry packs if you so desire. You must specify male or female.

You are allowed to take along one small domestic animal (dog, cat, pig, sheep, goat). Again, it will be docile and not run away, and you must specify male or female.

You can take whatever gear you and your family can carry, plus whatever you can pack onto your large animal. You do not have to actually go out and buy this gear... just make up a list and present to the ASBs and they will provide it for you. We are allowed to discuss it with each other to make sure we get a good selection of animals and gear (the ASBs want us to survive and thrive). We are allowed a reasonable amount of time to plan all this out, but anyone who deliberately dawdles to avoid being ISOTd will die of Spontaneous Human Combustion.

Anyone who has serious medical conditions requiring medication or other medical care to live will be cured.. you're not getting out of it that easily!

OK, there's the rules... what are your suggestions?

Oh, where are we going? The San Francisco bay area, 5000 BC, exactly where Ian's house is located... :)

[Justin Pickard]

Female llama, female sheep. Erm...I'll have a think about the rest...

[Count Dearborn]

I ain't going.

[Max Sinister]

I like the "free clone of any celebrity" part :-) Since there are no diseases except syphilis in America, and no animals too dangerous, my life could be pretty good :-)

[Flocculencio]

Female cow, female dog. I can hope that they're both pregnant.

A musket and as much ammunition and black powder as the clone I decide to bring along can carry. Antivennin, a reasonable supply of common medicines such as vitamin supplements and paracetamol, a physical and natural resources map of the Bay Area. As many tools as the cow can carry and a collapsible sled that the dog can drag. Finding the fixins' for black powder might be a problem in that region though.

[Ward]

I will take a female Camel pregant , One Female Goat Pregant .
12 wheelsbarrels to load goods into . My reloader and 120 lbs of powder for reloading , 30 lb of lead , I will wear my .357 and carry my 30-30 rifle , as will my wife and three sons my son=in law , my daughter , and my dughter in laws , The 2 oldist Grand kids will have 22 rifles and 22 pistols . We will also take tents , sleepeing bags, MRE, 800 lbs of seeds , and we will take axes , hoes , shovels , and a prow ,

[Flocculencio]

Ward, however, has an unfair advantage in this one :D

[Ward]

Well all the newbees will have to take male anamails , as well as nails and screws , that is every one with under post of 200 or less , those with 201 -400 get to bring such things as potting wheels , looms , and that , those over 401-900 get to bring 100 lbs of seeds , wood working tools and that .
those over 901 posts get to bring what we want .
By the Way all the medical people bring medical supplys you are going to be are doctors .

Rember we all are going back to 5000 BC were Ians house is . That means we are going to have a colonie of at less 1,600 people there .

Also people let only stick to 4 types of rounds for are weapons .

Would this mean that Ian is in charge of the colony because we are all ending up at his house .:D

[Grimm Reaper]

We all rush out and have our all-female animals subject to artificial insemination, thus guaranteeing a major population boom soon.

Various hand tools, books like The Way Things Work and anything we can carry from Dan Forrester's set in Lucifer's Hammer. A book of the best formulas, of course. I bring sulfur and saltpeter, and we can make the charcoal on our own. Then Ward can mix the firepowder for the bang-bang sticks.:D

Perhaps we should be asked in a situation where we each go alone on the ISOT instead of a entire AH.com colony thousands strong?

Say, Dave, will the clone also be docile? Selection might make Doctor What a casualty!:p

[Ward]

Well let us all get hawkins 52 cal , Flint locks rifles .
Do we have anyone who is a blacksmith ?
Something to think about is camels use less water and food then cows and there milk is better for you .
Also rember people get old fastion seeds not the hibreads that sold to farmers . We will want to beable to plant food from some of the seeds we get in from this year crops .

Dose anyone know who to make bows and arrows by hand .
Do we have anyone who has plains for oldfasion sailing fishing boats .

Also let us leave the pigs home .

[jolo]

As you took care about the animals one can eat, I'll take a horse. If I can find out on the board that other people choose horses, too, only one needs to be male, the others female. Otherwise let's take some deep frozen seemen along a female horse. Should be an easy to handle horse useful for carrying weight and drawing carts - race horses aren't needed there. Some ah.com-folks will still make a big cavallery out of them...

The other animal will probably be a dog suitable for guarding - there are enough around there at the time, but under the savage life likely to happen the next few years I want to make sure I wake up when someone comes along in the middle of the night.

I'll quickly divorce my wife, so that I can get some actress with lots of beautiful grown up daughters - and I'll become a Mormon.

I'll also take along everything needed for farming and equipment to turn woods into wood. Also everything needed to build homes, tools, and so on. I'll try to get maps, especially of the area. Books on farming, medicine, plants, animals, local languages, crafting, chemistry, and so on, might also be useful.

The seeds I bring along should be easy to handle and for all kinds of things - wheat, potatoes, salad, fruits, vegetables, and so on.

Maybe I'll try to get to know which kinds of groups will develop - I'd prefer living in a small city/village with some of the more democratically minded ah.comers, and there in a quarter with mainly some of the more sane and friendly of you people, who don't mind atheist mormons - though especially the sane ones will be difficult to find... :)

[Psychomeltdown]

I'll tag along with Ward and his family, since they seem to know what they're doing. Figure they'll be the ones who are going to be showing us al what to do and how to do it.

I can do a few things, hunt, skin an animal, shoe a horse, take care of livestock, but I'm not what one would call a professional at it. I've felled trees, i've helped in planting and harvesting crops, mainly corn.

As for animals, I'm taking what I've grown up with Horse and Sheep. Both female and if possible knocked up. Horse of course will be a quarter horse. Sheep mainly because you can make wool and sadly I know how to card and spin the wool, my grandma's way. (sadly because it's in my culture it's supposed to be "woman's work") and I think i can make a Navajo loom, only good for making blankets/rugs/or thick cloth though.

Though I don't see why we can't bring pigs? They're some of the fastest breeding animals and they'll pretty much eat anything.

As for equipment, I'll be packing what personal items I can and whatever else is needed by the group. medicines, books, tools, etc. We'll of course will probably be living cheek and jowl for a few weeks until our various homes get built and from there possibly in a community or three. As for seeds, the ones my family uses to plant aren't hybrids, they're mainly handed down from countless generations.

[Flocculencio]

Oh, we're all going together? Sorry- I misread the initial post.

In that case I just bring along books and writing materials (as many as my pack animal can carry), the flintlock rifle Ward recommended, a pregnant female horse* and a dog. Someone's going to have to act as teacher to the various kids people will no doubt be having and it might as well be me. I have some Medic training but I'm not experienced enough to do anything more than act as backup to Torq, Diamond and Glen Finney (our resident MD). I can shoot alright too. So basically I can be the settlement's teacher plus help out where needed.

Camels are a good idea but I've heard that for some reason they haven't seemed to do very well outside Asia and Australia. Maybe someone has more info on this?

*regarding the breed: possibly the Shire Horse- good for farming, plus incredibly strong, or the Arabian- good endurance, fast (would be useful on hunting or raiding parties) and bred for a hot climate.

[Flocculencio]

Also, what's the situation hostile native-wise in the Bay at 5000BC? The Bay Area's probably one of the best places in the world to start a community as you have that fantastic mediterranean climate moderated by the cooling effect and moisture of the Bay itself.

[Grimm Reaper]

I have a few basic skills, courtesy of camp and SCA, ironically the less combat-worthy, like candle-making and soap-making.

If we go as a pack, we should avoid overlap and bring not only books but start-up kits as well.

We must have a few pigs! I need bacon and ham and North America doesn't have them yet!

Alternately...

...the ISOT was a tragic failiure. Many obvious and necessary items were lacking while others were duplicated. The skilled workers were quickly outraged by the laziness of the sedentary majority and sought to flee, instead being kept as captives and lamed. The celebrity wives crowd earned the hatred of the other women as their looks required no work and vital resources, and their looks didn't hold up long in any event. Soon moral collapsed, infighting commenced, and with the onset of winter the entire community collapsed into internicine warfare and degenerated into a handful of surviving cannibals. Only the cynical and ruthless Grimm Reaper held on to a kernel of civilized thought and as the last survivor he left a message to one who would understand...

...San Francisco, 2005AD. Ian Montgomerie puzzled over the flat rock he had dug up in his backyard. The one inscribed

Croaton
Wish I Wasn't Here
Grimm Reaper

Was this the next part in the AH.com joke being pulled on him? The first part being when his entire site suddenly went silent and he was unable to reach any of the members by email. Would he ever know the truth?

[Flocculencio]

If we go as a pack, we should avoid overlap and bring not only books but start-up kits as well.

I volunteer to bring along a home brewing kit and an instruction manual on how to use it

[Othniel]

I'd bring my Dutch-Oven cooking set...;) hmmm, do I want more bodies to care more stuff, or do I want to get a clone of a liked girl to propagate. If the first then I am one of six people to carry stuff due to bring my parents and siblings as my immeadiate family... If the second I would be able to help substane the colony.

Bringing books on botany, my female dog (just a puppy but attached I am to her), and a male oxen for hauling more stuff as soon as I can build a cart or a plow from other materails, so i'll load it up with garden equipment..

[Psychomeltdown]

Wonder if there should be a standardized set of equipment to bring.

Plus how much food will have to be packed. There'd be my girl and me, then the horse and sheep. A horse can carry a large load, especially if it's not too far, and the woman and i can possibly load up with even more.

a camping set.
cooking set.
tool set (saws, axes, knives, etc)
and enough food for each person to last six months?

based upon the active members for the site: there's 450 people possibly going, unless every Ah.com member is going...

That'll be about a minimum of 900 people, adding children and some family that others are taking, at least 1000 or more people.

[Matt]

I'd take a strong draft horse(male) and my corgi roxie(female). The male horse can be used to establish a breeding stock, and roxie is a natural herder to assit with our meager, um... herd. She'll need a companion though to help here out.

Then there is the basic survival kit of clothing, shelter, food, and tools.

I'd take basic machine tools with me, so we can manufacture things once we get there.

[Grimm Reaper]

Why can't these inconsiderate ASBs ever call us after a nice Sunday brunch? Always the middle of the night!:mad:

So...are we there yet?

[Matt]

MMMmmmm an idea for an online game methinks?

[Psychomeltdown]

Based on the 450 members.

population: 1050, roughly 50/50 male/female ratio.

450 large domestic animals.
450 small domestic animals.

60 pounds of gear for each person.
possible 300 pounds for the large animal.


Unless we're going the communal route, as in sleeping, eating, living, then everyone will probably be wanting to have their own set of items they want. Of course everyone can live under a large tarp for a couple of weeks while the homes get built, so we don't have to probably bring separate tents and the like, if you're willing to sleep cheek and jowl with other board members.

Clothing, tough and durable.
Tools, good stainless steel
Food, for both man and animal
Personal items

[Matt]

60 lbs per person?

Even a person that's not in great shape should be able to carry at least half of their body weight for an extended period of time.

[Psychomeltdown]

60 lbs per person?

Even a person that's not in great shape should be able to carry at least half of their body weight for an extended period of time.
just guesstimation. Some people, such as the womanfolk, won't probably be able to carry the weight for an extended period. Plus it's an average.

75 lbs sound reasonable?


plus further looking into the SFB area, it seems to have easy access to salt marshes, and is a stopping spot for millions of waterfowl heading wherever. So that would probably cut down on the food that is needed to be taken, 'course we'll be needing nets.

[GBW]

Once again, those wacky ASBs wake us up in the middle of the night to tell us that we are all going to be ISOT'd into the past, and to get ready.
ASB: Ho there! Wake up, got some news for you!

AH.Commer: (drowsy) Huh? Who's there-- GAH! BIG! BAT!

ASB: Yes, yes. Besides all that, you're going to be Isotted into--

AH.Commer: BIG! BAT! TALKING! Gaaaahhh?!

[Flocculencio]

plus further looking into the SFB area, it seems to have easy access to salt marshes, and is a stopping spot for millions of waterfowl heading wherever. So that would probably cut down on the food that is needed to be taken, 'course we'll be needing nets.

Yeah I had forgotten about the marshes.

We'll probably have to establish one main colony- the South Bay (where Ian lives IIRC) is a bit hot and dry so it might be an idea to trek North and set up our main base around the Berkeley area- lots of flat land for crops and such. A subsiduary colony further North near the salt marshes (which IIRC are in the North Bay) for fowling, maybe a second one in the hills for hunting/logging- I don't know what the original vegetation of the Bay was but I'd assume scrubland. I think I remember reading that the hills were originally forested though.

[CalBear]

I would suggest bringing a good deal of trade goods. The Bay Area wasn't UNPOPULATED 5.000 years ago and the residents from that period will have considerable useful knowledge. They also have 1st claim on the land (I assume we will not recreate the worse parts of the past?) I figure that no one will have smallpox or the measles when we ISOT so we will not see a 90% Native die-off as in OTL.

You will also want to bring drought resistant crops (very little rain falls in the Bay Area from May through November) or figure out some method of irrigation. (BTW: The North Bay, Marin, Sonoma & the like gets Way more rain that the San Jose area.) The land in this area is very fertile IF you can bring water to it.

Just stay away from SoCal. The first couple of settlements in the LA region died from lack of water.

75 lbs seems reasonable as an average. How far do the ASB's mean for us to carry it? If it simply lift it, most people will be able to stand up and take a stepwith the body weight added as packs if it's properly balanced.

In addition to the items already noted: Make sure we bring LOTS of flints and firestarters, useful & great trade items. A portable forge, like that carried by Lewis & Clarke is also vital. Black powder weapons are easier to repair & get extra powder for than modern weapons. If we are going to bring modern weapons I would suggest a single caliber, perhaps 2. For rifle & big bore pistols .44 mag will allow for game hunting anywhere in California, for the pot .22 rifles & pistols. I agree that .52 caliber for black powder weapons is a good choice. For bows, you will be able to find Yew trees with 30 miles or so. If no one is bowyer, we better include some manuals on making bows.

As far as companions, are we going to limit the number of Charlize Theron clones we can bring? Might get damned confusing if we don't (of course I don't want to miss out on MINE!).

[Flocculencio]

You will also want to bring drought resistant crops (very little rain falls in the Bay Area from May through November) or figure out some method of irrigation. (BTW: The North Bay, Marin, Sonoma & the like gets Way more rain that the San Jose area.) The land in this area is very fertile IF you can bring water to it.


Yeah like I said earlier I figured a settlement around Berkeley or a bit farther North for the main base with subsiduaries in the wetlands and hills for hunting/logging.

RE the natives- smallpox and measels are probably not going to be much of a problem but what about the 'flu?

[Ward]

They did not say we could not have wagon and carts people .
So one of the Easy way to move ideams is a wheelbarrel you can move up to 800 lbs in a large constrution one . Glens 6 year old could move 40 lbs in a small kids wheelbarrels . Also did they say we could not take bikes remember you can but a small tralier on a bike . .As for myself I would leave wearing my SCA out fit , With my sword , dager , and chianmail on . Thats beside my .357, pistol .
Rember when asking for cooking gear get eather cast iron or stanlice steel .

Every one should carry at less 2 lbs of waxs so we can make candles .

Rember to take colthing that will wear a long time not fance clothing .

Some books for you to take is the Foxfire books , the scouts fields books ,
most military survival manuales . .

people don't forget to bring water . And water filiting gear . Also bring two good sets of boots and make sure they are broken in .

If you have fur coats bring them they are warm and will last a long time .

[Psychomeltdown]

I think Dave said that you're restricted to what you can carry and your animal can carry.

[Tyr]

Male sheepdog or maybe labrador (most intelligant, loyal sorts of dog). Can be put out to stud to lesser animals in possession of natives.
Male horse- everyone else seems to be choosing female so we need some male! Will be a bitch to keep under control for carrying my stuff until I can hook up with the others... Better not make it one of the peak specimans of horsekind.

For books after the immediate survival some books on projects for the future would be good- steam engines and the like. In the plentiful free time I will have I can carve some bits out of these onto cave walls for the Europeans to gawp at after they kill all our decendants :D

For skills I've got...Not many in California. I don't do hot weather and all the soil,plants and wildlife will be strange. I worked part time on a farm for a time but that just involved worrying sheep mainly. Never bothered with crops much beyond growing veg in my garden...

MMMmmmm an idea for an online game methinks?
Hell yes, I've been wanting us to do a ISOT for some time. The being yourself is iffy but...Meh.


Edit- just read back in the topic and noticed a good idea. Instead of the male horse just take a female with sperm samples from the peak animals of horse kind and all the relevant books and err...equipment to get the job done.

[Ward]

Well then rember to load your animals and your self heavy . They said we would be sent to Were Ians house is .Once there you can put it down and we can build a drag for it . Did they say we could not carry between the group maybe two people holding on to it .

[Flocculencio]

Well then rember to load your animals and your self heavy . They said we would be sent to Were Ians house is .Once there you can put it down and we can build a drag for it . Did they say we could not carry between the group maybe two people holding on to it .

Or just coordinate- I'm sure, say, five members, their partners and animals could manage to load up the materials for a medium sized wagon, especially if they choose a heavy draft animal for their large animal.

[Ward]

The Bad part is lets take a family like mine I get two animals for 8 Audilts , 2 teens , and 6 kids . We will get short changed on anmials but we can carry a lot of stuff. And would the Teens get a mate to bring along or what ,

[Psychomeltdown]

The things we need will probably be food and shelter first.

food will have to be what we can hunt/fish/etc and supplemented by what can be grown.

Figure the Ward Clan's gonna be the Master Farmers for the region. Pretty much all resources will be going to what lands we can clear and plant upon. A lot of hard work in clearing land, unless we're going for the slash and burn type for the first year or two.

As Flocc said we'd probably have to move more northernly to have a better area to cultivate and settle. Nearer to rivers, forests, and a steady supply of salt.

Guess all the animals can be put into communal herds, just make sure you remember which one is yours. The animals will probably have to be well guarded, just in case of wild animals, bears and the such.

As for native populations, they'll be hunter gatherers and nomadic, subsisting on the waterfowl they can capture and what can be harvested from the sea. It might not be too difficult to start a working relationship with them, if they aren't wiped out by any disease that we carry.

[Psychomeltdown]

The Bad part is lets take a family like mine I get two animals for 8 Audilts , 2 teens , and 6 kids . We will get short changed on anmials but we can carry a lot of stuff. And would the Teens get a mate to bring along or what ,
Your clan will be basically in command of the whole food source. Not many of us can farm worth a damn, so it'll be up to you and your family to begin teaching everyone how to.

figure that'll even out things a bit, no?

[Ward]

well I hate to say it but what are we going to do with a lot of these people .

Like Dr. What what can he do besides cook and watch porna .

[Psychomeltdown]

well I hate to say it but what are we going to do with a lot of these people .

Like Dr. What what can he do besides cook and watch porna .
put them to work in the fields. We'll need wood cutters, hunters, land clearers, herders.

Plus once you get your manor built, you can put Dr What to work in the kitchen. :D

[Flocculencio]

well I hate to say it but what are we going to do with a lot of these people .

Like Dr. What what can he do besides cook and watch porna .

The majority will be taking tutorials from the specialists- i.e. you for farming, someone else for hunting, maybe a third person for fishing, Glen Finney and Torq for medical knowledge and trauma management. Plus there are going to be a lot of general jobs that anyone can do e.g. basic carpentry like setting up fences and stuff.

Those of us with military experience should probably be the scouting section unless, like Ward, our skills are irreplaceable. However, people like me who have military training but don't have any other immediately useful skills could be best used in this way: If we're moving up to the North Bay from San Jose, we'll need say ten to twenty mounted men under the command of, say, Weapon M to recce the area while the rest of the group moves up more slowly. The same group will also be used to recce the hunting and logging sites and later on to mount attacks if we run into hostile natives- which we probably will. At the very least, we're going to have problems with cattle and horse rustling.

[Psychomeltdown]

A lot of manpower will be needed in cutting wood and clearing land. It takes a hellva lot of wood for just cooking, heating, and building. I'm guessing that's where all the man power will be going in the beginning.

The military types, if not having irreplaceable skills, can be sent to guard the animals and keep a look out for unwelcomes. The rest of us will be learning a trade, from farming to whatnot.

Classes on basic archery and the whatnot will be important, if there's hostiles and just for simple hunting. gun powder weapons only to those that are pretty good shots or know what they're doing.

[Codeman]

what about members that are under 18? do we get to bring our parents or what?

if we do my dad knows how to farm and what plants you can and cant eat My mom is an accomplisehd gardener me and my 3 brothers can fish well as for stuff we all would bring an infloatable liftraft to use for fishing until we get some real boats and chisel,screw,hammer,axe,pick,shovel and all that stuff i would take my male great dane and a male camel for riding plus alot of seeds and alot of pennies and dimes to trade with and maybe some fake gold to trade with

[Flocculencio]

Here's a map with potential settlement areas. Sorry about it's crappiness- I couldn't find a blank one.

[NapoleonXIV]

Drew Barrymore, her looks are based on bone structure, so should hold up well.

A pregnant alley cat and pregnant horse, small draft type

A portable hydroelectric generator.

A laptop, most durable available with 4 extra batteries.

CD's on all the technology of survival, modern life and how to build it. Metallurgy, electronics, medicine, chemistry etc etc. Also maps and geological maps of the area at the time. Schematics, diagrams, explanations etc. I figure I can carry about 200 DVDs in a rack.

A small tent. For the laptops

Four black powder cartridge rifles and reloaders for same. Two black powder revolvers.

This should all fit on a small draft horse, (I'll load up poor Drew as well, Cats don't carry:D )

[Flocculencio]

A lot of manpower will be needed in cutting wood and clearing land. It takes a hellva lot of wood for just cooking, heating, and building. I'm guessing that's where all the man power will be going in the beginning.

That's a good point which also brings up a question. Does anyone know what the vegetation of the Bay Area was like at the time? As I've said I know the Berkeley Hills were forested to a certain extent but what about the plain? If it proves too troublesome to transport the lumber down from the hills we might have to set up our main settlement in the hills. However, that leaves us with the trouble of guarding our farmland down on the plain.

The military types, if not having irreplaceable skills, can be sent to guard the animals and keep a look out for unwelcomes. The rest of us will be learning a trade, from farming to whatnot.

Classes on basic archery and the whatnot will be important, if there's hostiles and just for simple hunting. gun powder weapons only to those that are pretty good shots or know what they're doing.

Basic archery is a good one- however, it might be an idea to think about making crossbows- much easier to maintain and use than ordinary bows.

I have a feeling that the guns might be more needed by the farmers, hunters and loggers- perhaps the security detachment could be made up of four squads of five men each- four lancers (with a lance and mace i.e. baseball bat each) and a gunman (also with a mace) per squad. Lancers should be able to drive off most enemies and you don't need any special training to use a mace. That way we can free up more people with modern military training for base defence and the scouting squads can practice with their melee weapons. After all, if anyone's got any metalworking skills we should be able to bang up some crude lance heads and it would be less wasteful of metal than handing out bullets to the scouts.

[Psychomeltdown]

Here's a map with potential settlement areas. Sorry about it's crappiness- I couldn't find a blank one.
ouch. that seems like a long journey, with most of us on foot and herding after animals.


maybe for those under 18 they can bring along their parents and siblings?

[Dave Howery]

what about members that are under 18? do we get to bring our parents or what?

dang, didn't think about that... uh... well, let's stick you under the whole 'immediate family' heading, and send you along with your parents and siblings...

[Psychomeltdown]

That's a good point which also brings up a question. Does anyone know what the vegetation of the Bay Area was like at the time? As I've said I know the Berkeley Hills were forested to a certain extent but what about the plain? If it proves too troublesome to transport the lumber down from the hills we might have to set up our main settlement in the hills. However, that leaves us with the trouble of guarding our farmland down on the plain.

I've been trying to look for maps or descriptions of landareas around the SFB, but haven't had much luck. Most just give general description.

though for the main farming settlement we can probably make a fortified area, a palisade or something. If there's an attack, it'll come from small raiding groups. Though the other groups will have to be more heavily armed.

Though even the hint of possible attack will probably force us to devote some resources to keeping a militia of sorts, with a core of more military minded individuals leading it.


Basic archery is a good one- however, it might be an idea to think about making crossbows- much easier to maintain and use than ordinary bows.
I'll go with the garbled quote: "crossbows are good weapons, but take a lot to make, whereas a bow is a simple weapon, one that can be easily made if anyone ties to get to tyrannical"

:D

[Flocculencio]

ouch. that seems like a long journey, with most of us on foot and herding after animals.

Yeah but it's necessary- the South Bay is way too hot and dry. If we head up Berkeley way it'll be cooler and moister too.

Oh and another point in favour of the majority of the security teams being mounted lancers- since we're using primitive black powder weapons we'll only be able to get off one shot on horseback at most. Lancers will be more effective in pursuing and stopping thieves or hostiles than mounted musketmen.

I suggest that while everyone will act as part of the militia, the dedicated mounted security squads will perform continuous and regular patrols of the area, travelling between the three settlements and patrolling the bounds of our territory, thus facilitating regular communication between the groups. Each "round trip" should take maybe a week or two? This way we'll get a general picture of what's happening in the region and hopefully note any armed raiding bands approaching our territory before they actually attack the settlements.

[Psychomeltdown]

Oh and another point in favour of the majority of the security teams being mounted lancers- since we're using primitive black powder weapons we'll only be able to get off one shot on horseback at most. Lancers will be more effective in pursuing and stopping thieves or hostiles than mounted musketmen.
of course that mean a lot more training to get a man to learn how to use a lance and chase down enemies. Plus we'll be dealing with small groups of lightly armed men who don't even have bows and arrows yet. The most they have are atlatls and with a good bow you can out range them.

Small raiding parties is what we'll be facing, therefore I'm guessing we'll need people who are good at countering small raiding parties. Lancers would be good, but they probably won't be useful for a long time. You need an enemies who won't just melt into the forest for that type of weapon.

I'm figuring gun powder weapons are only used in emergencies, such as large animal attacks or raids. they'll to irreplaceable, especially since it's a long way to get sulphur.

[jolo]

Looking at the map, there appears to be enough suitable terrain pretty close to where we'd be ISOTed to.

A permanent river would be completely sufficient for a small settlement, even if agriculture is difficult there.

So I propose (lazy as I am) I'd start a location there with others who like the place, we built a small fort, and we charge the rest of you some food or other equipment for storing some of your less important stuff - then everyone should be able to carry even more than his weight.

A few chainsaws might be useful - even if they will break down soon. If it's possible to make them run on alcohol or oil, they should last a while. If they are all the same, broken ones can be used to repair the others.

[Flocculencio]

of course that mean a lot more training to get a man to learn how to use a lance and chase down enemies. Plus we'll be dealing with small groups of lightly armed men who don't even have bows and arrows yet. The most they have are atlatls and with a good bow you can out range them.

Small raiding parties is what we'll be facing, therefore I'm guessing we'll need people who are good at countering small raiding parties. Lancers would be good, but they probably won't be useful for a long time. You need an enemies who won't just melt into the forest for that type of weapon.

Training the lancers will be important but it's a lot easier to train a man to stay in the saddle and ride down an enemy than it is to teach him to shoot a bow accurately from horseback.

Most of the terrain where the lancers will be operating probably won't be forest- rolling plains is where the majority of our herd animals should be grazing. The outer settlements should be well armed enough to beat off a raid on their own. The job of the lancers will be to cut off and intercept raiding parties making for the grazing lands. Basically if they get into the hills with the animals or whatever else they've stolen we'll never be able to catch them anyway- hence a small highly mobile force not dependent on ammo (whether arrows or bullets).

[Flocculencio]

Looking at the map, there appears to be enough suitable terrain pretty close to where we'd be ISOTed to.

A permanent river would be completely sufficient for a small settlement, even if agriculture is difficult there.

So I propose (lazy as I am) I'd start a location there with others who like the place, we built a small fort, and we charge the rest of you some food or other equipment for storing some of your less important stuff - then everyone should be able to carry even more than his weight.

A temporary base fort would be a good idea but it's not going to be useful in the long term- the temperature down there is hellish in the summer.

[Ward]

Looking at the map, there appears to be enough suitable terrain pretty close to where we'd be ISOTed to.

A permanent river would be completely sufficient for a small settlement, even if agriculture is difficult there.

So I propose (lazy as I am) I'd start a location there with others who like the place, we built a small fort, and we charge the rest of you some food or other equipment for storing some of your less important stuff - then everyone should be able to carry even more than his weight.

A few chainsaws might be useful - even if they will break down soon. If it's possible to make them run on alcohol or oil, they should last a while. If they are all the same, broken ones can be used to repair the others.




The Chainsaws will take to much weight we can use crosscut saw .and an axe and it takes less room and weight .

[jolo]

A temporary base fort would be a good idea but it's not going to be useful in the long term- the temperature down there is hellish in the summer.

Gives me a good excuse to sit lazy on the veranda... :D

[Flocculencio]

Gives me a good excuse to sit lazy on the veranda... :D

Where's the fun in that? :D I'd rather be out riding with the lancers :cool:

[Psychomeltdown]

Maybe a Ranger type armed force.

a lancer is expensive. Consider a horse that could be used for plowing or other work and a man who could also be working. all the horses will probably be needed in tearing up stumps, plowing land, hauling stuff and I'm not sure they'll be any left over for a group of lancers.

We're pretty much back to human and animal power here. and we'll need all of those we can get.

[luakel]

Where's the fun in that? :D I'd rather be out riding with the lancers :cool:
Same here. :D

As Ward said, does everyone get a mate? Or only those who don't have anyone?

[Ward]

So how about a list of what you are taking and who you are taking .

And who is intrested in makeing this a on line game . We will use Gurps rules for set ourself up .

So sign up if you are intrested in the Game .

[Darkest]

Anyone want to build a basic wind-powered generator? I'd like to create a 'Television Tent', where we can remember the world we came from, by viewing an assortment of movies.

Also, I think a lot of you are forgetting that people might not be as unified as you think. We might go Lord of the Flies and become divided. Or, laziness might set in... I mean, most of us are from first-world countries, we won't be used to hard labor, providing for ourselves from scratch, ect.

Another thing, religion. Do you think we'll have religious divisions? My family might very well be the only Latter-Day Saints, how will we react when our Prophet disappears, our whole organization that we believe in? You can't tell what might happen when everyone's plug is pulled.

What do you think might happen to the native populations, with this introduction of technology? Do you think we might be able to sway some to our side, and incorporate them into our colony? That might be cool.

[Ward]

Well I can see it become if you don't work you don't eat rule coming into effect .

[Flocculencio]

Maybe a Ranger type armed force.

a lancer is expensive. Consider a horse that could be used for plowing or other work and a man who could also be working. all the horses will probably be needed in tearing up stumps, plowing land, hauling stuff and I'm not sure they'll be any left over for a group of lancers.

We're pretty much back to human and animal power here. and we'll need all of those we can get.

You do have to take into account that our only advantages over raiders will be metal weapons, firearms and horses. Firearms are too precious to be used for anything other than settlement defence and large animal hunting so we're down to using bows and metal melee weapons.

And though some of us have infantry training, I don't know if we'd be able to effectively pursue and take on raiders hand-to-hand on foot. These will be tribesmen who have spent their lives hunting and tracking.

[Flocculencio]

My list (this assumes the ASBs will grant us said items):

-A woman of some sort
-Horse, w. saddle etc.
-Goat
-SAS survival manual
-Hat
-my big coat
-Two lances, a sabre
-whetstone
-Boots and a spare pair
-Basic schoolbooks
-Complete Shakespeare (just 'cos :D)
-Communal goods (trade goods, seeds) to be added to the common stockpile of items

[Psychomeltdown]

Well I can see it become if you don't work you don't eat rule coming into effect .
True.




religion will probably be something you practice individually. there's no need to establish a central church or something of that nature.

[Flocculencio]

Well I can see it become if you don't work you don't eat rule coming into effect .

Hear, hear!

And everyone's going to have to put aside some of their first-world niceties. We're not in the first world anymore and the different groups of people are going to have to listen to what their respective specialists (e.g. Ward for the farming settlement) will say.

As Psycho says, religion's an individual thing.

[GBW]

Has anyone thought about ballista emplacements for settlement defense?

[Flocculencio]

Has anyone thought about ballista emplacements for settlement defense?

Same problem as Psycho pointed out with the crossbows- making them is going to be tricky. If we get the design wrong the first time we fire it it's going to spring apart in a mass of flying timbers probably killing the operators

[GBW]

Then why not bring a book on siege engines?

[Flocculencio]

Then why not bring a book on siege engines?

Making them won't be the problem- making them right will be. There's probably all kinds of structural engineering stuff you'd have to figure out to make sure the things don't come back and bite us in the ass. Although we might have some engineers among our ranks in which case it would probably be a very useful project to take up in time.

Although a ballista would probably be overkill- a manned stockade would be more than enough to hold off a direct attack.

[Psychomeltdown]

basics of what I'll be taking

A woman, navajo variety... ;)
A horse, quarter horse, female, with tack and western saddle.
an ewe, hopefully preggers.
wood working tools, axes, adzes, saws, etc.
other steel tools, knives, pots, pans, etc.
two short swords
as many steel arrow heads I can get
a flute, figure I'll learn to play it.
tough clothing and boots,
trade goods,
animal care manuals, figure I'll go for animal care and hunting rather than farming.
and communal goods, what's needed as in seeds, defense items, etc.

[jolo]

If we're setting up a small fort at a river, it shouldn't be too difficult to add a simple dam for water powered equipment, running water, and maybe even generating some electricity.

And I'm not sure how much we'd manage with saws - most of us would have blisters after less than an hour. With chain saws, each of us could do a simple 1-room block house in a day (animals pulling the wood). Thinking about it: How about some professional equipment to turn wood into planks and beams?

Also, what can be used against fire? Mud? At the beginning, there might be attacks, and the Amerindians know fire.

[Flocculencio]

And I'm not sure how much we'd manage with saws - most of us would have blisters after less than an hour. With chain saws, each of us could do a simple 1-room block house in a day (animals pulling the wood). Thinking about it: How about some professional equipment to turn wood into planks and beams?

Yes but the thing about chainsaws is that they'd soon be useless- everyone is going to get nasty blisters and lose a lot of weight in the first few months anyway.

Houses aren't what we should be thinking about- the North bay is mild enough that tents should be sufficient. The main uses for wood in the first few months will be for making animal pens, a stockade and for fuel.

[Flocculencio]

Oh yeah- I'd like to add a book on horsemanship to my lot- 18th C cavalry training manual of some sort.

[jolo]

Yes but the thing about chainsaws is that they'd soon be useless- everyone is going to get nasty blisters and lose a lot of weight in the first few months anyway.

Houses aren't what we should be thinking about- the North bay is mild enough that tents should be sufficient. The main uses for wood in the first few months will be for making animal pens, a stockade and for fuel.

For building a little fort - with an extra palisade going all around - I'll take a chainsaw with me... should work for a few weeks.

[Ward]

Same here. :D

As Ward said, does everyone get a mate? Or only those who don't have anyone?



Luakel you don't need a mate you have one its your right hand .:D :p

[jolo]

Oh yeah- I'd like to add a book on horsemanship to my lot- 18th C cavalry training manual of some sort.

And I suppose we won't be better than the Spaniards... :(

[Flocculencio]

And I suppose we won't be better than the Spaniards... :(

Well- it is 5000BC. I doubt they'll be showing up any time soon. Even amateur lancers should represent the finest fighting force on the planet :D

[Psychomeltdown]

Oh yeah- I'd like to add a book on horsemanship to my lot- 18th C cavalry training manual of some sort.
ah, you just wanna be a lancer, right?

:p


The animals will have to be protected at all times, basically.

What large animals are there beside Horses and cattle? They offer all that we need, basically. horses for power, cattle for meat, leather, and milk.

smaller animals would be
pigs
sheep
goats
chickens
dogs
cats

the latter two being mainly for home defense and keeping pests out.

[Psychomeltdown]

And I suppose we won't be better than the Spaniards... :(
We won't be enslaving. massacring, and trying to convert them.

such things are only for defense only, not going after the local populations in need of labor and the like.

[jolo]

Well- it is 5000BC. I doubt they'll be showing up any time soon. Even amateur lancers should represent the finest fighting force on the planet :D

I meant morally better... :rolleyes: :D

[Grimm Reaper]

Elephants. We need elephants. It will be a long time before we build heavy equipment so we need some.

jolo, what a thing to say! As a regular on this board, surely you can sit down, analyze the moral and intellectual strength of the membership, and determine the level of ethical behavior we can confidently expect.

...Grimm does just that...

My, I do not feel well at this time, a sudden case of the gorge of horror rising as I predict the future of AHworld...

[Darkest]

So, we are all transported 5000 BC? We might be able to create a formidable nation state and reach the Old World before civilization is officially created there. I personally would like something more like 500 AD or 1000 AD. The Amerindians are still very primitive, conditions are very much the same... but, we can look forward to contact more civilized peoples outside of the New World, sometime in the future.

It would make for a more fun of a game, I think.

[jolo]

jolo, what a thing to say! As a regular on this board, surely you can sit down, analyze the moral and intellectual strength of the membership, and determine the level of ethical behavior we can confidently expect.


Well, I'll sit on my veranda and look at all this folly happening... :D

[Flocculencio]

I meant morally better... :rolleyes: :D

Yeah as Psycho says we'll only act in self defence. If a raiding party tries to steal cattle we'll ride them down but it's not like we're going to storm into villages shooting and killing. In fact, encouraging the local population to join or trade with the settlements will give us a much needed population boost as well as the skills of people who are going to be better at hunting than any of us could ever hope to be.

Although I think we should make it a policy not to release any horses to the locals.

Grimm: Elephants would be cool but they might be a bit hard to handle.

[Ward]

Elephants. We need elephants. It will be a long time before we build heavy equipment so we need some.

jolo, what a thing to say! As a regular on this board, surely you can sit down, analyze the moral and intellectual strength of the membership, and determine the level of ethical behavior we can confidently expect.

...Grimm does just that...

My, I do not feel well at this time, a sudden case of the gorge of horror rising as I predict the future of AHworld...



Are you saying we will build a sick world with who we have as members of the board . :eek:

[Psychomeltdown]

Well, I'll sit on my veranda and look at all this folly happening... :D
and we'll watch you starve. :p


anyway, here's a site that's got some info on parks around the SFB area.

clicky clicky (http://3dparks.wr.usgs.gov/3Dbayarea/)



We'll also basically have to start everything from scratch, so it'll take a while before we begin building ships to explore the world. My guess the first decade or so will be establishing a thriving community and the like.

[Flocculencio]

We'll also basically have to start everything from scratch, so it'll take a while before we begin building ships to explore the world. My guess the first decade or so will be establishing a thriving community and the like.

Yeah- we'll have to worry about getting a food surplus and then after that about finding and establishing mining outposts for metals and the like.

[GBW]

Am I the only one who looks at that map of the SF area and see a Constantinople-like city rising up on that peninsula with the fortifications along its neck? That would likely be the work of future generations, though, unless a lot of locals joined us.

[Flocculencio]

Am I the only one who looks at that map of the SF area and see a Constantinople-like city rising up on that peninsula with the fortifications along its neck? That would likely be the work of future generations, though, unless a lot of locals joined us.

That would be exceedingly cool but the peninsula's extremely hilly- we'd most likely have to haul produce in from the flat lands across the bay so yeah, the work of future generations more likely :D

The mighty city of Ianopolis

[Grimm Reaper]

jolo, the 'no work, no eat' rule is in effect.

Flocc, so what? As long as we have luakel, we keep trying. If not, each is several tons of meat plus some ivory.

Ward, at no point did I use the word 'sick'.

...hail, Ming...uhm, Grimm, hail...


Psycho, we start with fishing boats and one Yankee clipper. We just have to grab some coffee in Hawaii.

[Flocculencio]

Ah well- you lot can go larking about at sea

[Mr. T]I ain't gettin' on no damn boat![/Mr. T] :D

I'll be happy guarding the herds from raiders and keeping communication lines open between base camp and the settlements :)

'Night guys- I'm off to bed

[Psychomeltdown]

I'll be happy guarding the herds from raiders and keeping communication lines open between base camp and the settlements :)
I'll be happy hunting and taking care of the animals.

You don't know how much i dislike seafood or the ocean. must be my desert upbringing. :D

[Matt]

Ward bought up a good point, you don't have to carry this stuff very far. You can carry your own personal gear, and have plenty of room for more since you can drop it soon after the ISOT. You might even be able to get away with you body weight.

With the draft animals we might be able to get some heavy duty, but important stuff. if we can attach a cart, we can have afford to carry modern firearms, since we can carry plenty of ammo.

Barter items would be good to take with us: hard liquor, precisious metals and stones, etc etc.

[CalBear]

Also let us leave the pigs home .

What's wrong with pigs?

I have to point out that we are being very 21st Century with some of the plans. Wagons are great, except there are NO ROADS, not even any trails except game trails. Berkeley get too little sun for good farming (lots of fog), you will want to head for the Napa & Sonoma Valleys, figure 100-125 miles on foot (you have to go around the Bay, no bridges). That's a decent stretch of the legs if you have a road or a trail, now figure its all uphill & down (lots of hills from the Earthquake faults), should be fun. You can also head South into the Salinas Valley, the walk is about the same

One thing you can not do is piss off the locals. They know how to survive in the area, where the water is during the dry season, which as I pointed out lasts for 6 months or so throughout the area. (Those Golden Hill of California, they're actually brown from the dead grass!). They also know which plants, mushrooms, and roots are edible & which ones will kill you (the area has some mushroom KIA's every couple of years so this is important stuff to know). They will also out number us by a good piece, guns are a great equalizer, but it's a major pain to have to send out an armed force every time you want to pick some berries.

The San Jose area actually isn't too hot during the summer 80 degrees or so most of the time, it gets much hotter (90 - 100 in the summer) in the East Bay once you cross the coastal hills East of Oakland. The problem is that the area is VERY dry (13-15 inches of rain per year on average most falling between January & early March) the rest of the area is much the same.

I can't say for sure what the area looked like 5,000 years back, but these are the main forest/grassland types dating from the early colonial period (1770's):

Redwood groves within 10 miles of the coast (more in some areas) from the Monterey Bay up to Oregon. Huge trees 20-30 ft in DIAMETER. One tree will give you enough lumber to build a several small cabins, but cutting them down with hand tools would a real task. Lots of ferns and small plants. Plenty of game. Mountain Lions and the occasional Bear are top predators

Oak groves (hence Oakland) where the Redwoods aren't. Big oak with grass land. Lots of brambles, wild berries. Mostly near creeks, streams, & other water sources. Some of the local native groups built their entire economy around acorns.

Grasslands, mile after mile of them. Anywhere there isn't enough water for the trees to grow.

Marshlands & Salt flats all around the Bay. Tons of birds in the right seasons, good fishing/crabbing. The bay is HUGE; these days you can take a ocean-going ship all the way inland to Stockton (50 - 60 miles). Don't even think of taking a small boat out through the Golden Gate unless you want to die.

Lots of Natives. In the 1770's, AFTER the impacts of Old World dieases, there were 310,000 Indians in the State (mostly in the Northern part as it's more hospitable). So the land is not exactly empty. This is both good & bad.

As far as the Old World coming in in 4500 years and wiping out our decendents - I think it's more likely the other way around. Provided the settlement survived a couple of generations until it took root, the Bay Area would be about 4,000 years ahead of anywhere else. A couple thousand years to build up the Population...

[Matt]

Take it from a butcher, theres some probelms with pork that you don't get with beef. Pigs would also be raised just for slaughter, while you can use a cow for pulling a plow, producing milk, and at the end of it's life; for food.

hey, butcher! That's my trade skill.

[jolo]

There's another problem: Sea levels changed a lot in the last 7000 years. And there were also quite a few pretty bad catastrophes happening in this time - I even believe the fact that northern North-America had few people when America was discovered (again) might have to do with lots more than just some glacial floodings - like the one or other asteroid impact, climate catastrophe, or the likes. Think about how all the Salt came to Salt Lake City - such salt lakes usually quickly (within a few thousand years) disappear, if they aren't regularly fed with salt water.

Just for the ones of you who like to put all eggs in one basket.

[jolo]

jolo, the 'no work, no eat' rule is in effect.

I didn't say I won't work at all - and don't forget, whoever moves little also needs few calories...

[GBW]

That would be exceedingly cool but the peninsula's extremely hilly- we'd most likely have to haul produce in from the flat lands across the bay so yeah, the work of future generations more likely :D

The mighty city of Ianopolis
Well, Constantinople was on seven hills... but I'm guessing there's more than that.

[luakel]

Luakel you don't need a mate you have one its your right hand .:D :p
:eek: :rolleyes:

That's just sick. The question was meant to apply to over-16's only...

BTW Ward, since you're the official king/emperor, what happens to all of us AH.COMers who just want to sit around and do nothing? :p

[GBW]

BTW Ward, since you're the official king/emperor, what happens to all of us AH.COMers who just want to sit around and do nothing? :p
Tells you to get your head out of your ass and that you now get to collect the fertilizer from the animals.

[Othniel]

Thinking about this, I have nearly indefinate access to tools. So a tool belt and building materials is what I'd bring. Or load up tents on my oxen until we can get better shelters. We'd need something of a city planning community. A effient design, something of a library for the number of books we bring, a deliever system or a supermarket made of makeshift coolers. Oh and canvas. I'd suggest for small animals someone brought chickens, lots of hens and a few roosters. Eggs are going to be a mainstay for a while.

Maybe fishing would do some good as well. Any ideas there?:)

[Ward]

:eek: :rolleyes:

That's just sick. The question was meant to apply to over-16's only...

BTW Ward, since you're the official king/emperor, what happens to all of us AH.COMers who just want to sit around and do nothing? :p



Well lets see you can watch and see your backbone touch your belly button :D

Those of us who do work might just have a long pig party with one of you lazy do nothings as the main corse .

And If I know my Grand daughter she will take you under her wing so to say and you will be working in the field very fast luakel .

[Ward]

Thinking about this, I have nearly indefinate access to tools. So a tool belt and building materials is what I'd bring. Or load up tents on my oxen until we can get better shelters. We'd need something of a city planning community. A effient design, something of a library for the number of books we bring, a deliever system or a supermarket made of makeshift coolers. Oh and canvas. I'd suggest for small animals someone brought chickens, lots of hens and a few roosters. Eggs are going to be a mainstay for a while.

Maybe fishing would do some good as well. Any ideas there?:)



Just rember to take tools that are hand powered only . I would try to talk the ASB to let all children under 10 to be able to take a chicken each .
But if need be we caputre Rabits and rase them for meat .
do you have the plans of salt lake city in the eary days .

[Othniel]

Just rember to take tools that are hand powered only . I would try to talk the ASB to let all children under 10 to be able to take a chicken each .
But if need be we caputre Rabits and rase them for meat .
do you have the plans of salt lake city in the eary days .
I know it was settled in a grid to make things easy to find. Just make Ian's House the central point and form from there outwards along straight lines. We can put important centers about every eight blocks out, rotating even and odd numbers by the side of the street you are on.... everything numbered with an east or a west, a north or a south..

We'll set up centers of worship, and a towne hall with an elected concucil. Of corse for a while these will be make-shift. huts made of wood and hay for when we don't have tents. Schools will only go a short time for those under 15, us implementing trade schools for certain purposes. Metal isn't going to last long so its going to valuable, very valuable.

We'll need maps of near-by mines for referance when we can finally expand as a group.

[Dave Howery]

My, some of you have thought this out thoroughly.
Should I be worried about that?

random thoughts:
Elephants would not be a good choice, as they are a one-generation animal... they aren't bred in captivity, but are captured in the wild and tamed... ours would die off and we couldn't replace them unless we get some really big boats and sail all the way to Borneo.
We need guns... big bore ones... I have a .54 cal. Hawken replica, and I'm not sure that even that is big enough.. remember that CA at this time is swarming with grizzly bears. I suggest Hawkens or something similar in flintlocks. I have no idea if the stuff we need to make black powder is available (well, charcoal would be.. anyone know how to make it), and once our livestock industry gets going, we'd have access to saltpeter.
Animals... we should make sure we have an assortment of beef cows and milk cows... milk and potatoes are a pretty complete diet, even if it's boring... it'd keep us alive on minimum acreage. Need some draft horses for plowing, quarter horses for riding and herding. Mules are nice too, so I'd suggest at least a few burros for crossbreeding.
Small animals... again, go for a good assortment of sheep, dogs, cats, and pigs. Wouldn't need a lot of dogs and cats to start out with, as they breed pretty quickly. Same for pigs... they are way more prolific than the other meat animals, and can eat damn near anything.. in fact, they can forage for themselves.
I remember reading that a lot of the natives of CA were dependent on some kind of nut producing tree, so they started fires a lot to keep the trees healthy and thinned out. So, IIRC, we'd find ourselves in an area with lots of grass, scattered trees, and not many shrubs. Good area for planting, plowing, and grazing.
Food plants... potatoes would be the big one.. we need lots. Other than that... any kind of grain we'd want? We'd need one eventually, as our population grows... what would be best? Other than that, I'd suggest things like rasberry cuttings (very easy to grow, spread like crazy), and other plants like that where you don't need to have new seeds every year.
Luakel> sorry, my sense of morals prevents me from giving an adult woman clone to a 13 yr. old... you wouldn't leave the bedroom for weeks at a time and we'd never get any work out of you... maybe we could pair you up with one of Ward's many girl offspring...

*runs for the hills ahead of Ward and his shotgun*

[Dave Howery]

I would try to talk the ASB to let all children under 10 to be able to take a chicken each .
well, you could each have them take one as part of the "whatever you can carry" rule... they don't weigh much... you realize we'd have to build chicken coops PDQ...

oh, Ian's house doesn't get ISOT'd with us... we just go to that location in 5000 BC... it'll be bare grassland, I suppose.

Hmm.. would Ian be going with us? Or is he more powerful than the ASBs...

[Dave Howery]

I ain't going.
**The AH.COM online community was struck by tragedy today, when Count Deerborn suddenly burst into flames and was turned into a small pile of ashes**

[Othniel]

Just rember to take tools that are hand powered only . I would try to talk the ASB to let all children under 10 to be able to take a chicken each .
But if need be we caputre Rabits and rase them for meat .
do you have the plans of salt lake city in the eary days .
I also realised that power tools are a bad idea. Shovels, axes, hammers, saws, pick axes, and other materials, such as survey equipment would... well be helpful in setting up a settlement. If the ASBs gave as as much time to cordinate, as say Easter, I think we could be set. I'd increase my lifting capicity for sure...

[Dave Howery]

Since there are no diseases except syphilis in America, and no animals too dangerous, my life could be pretty good :-)
CA has big populations of grizzly bears at this time, and a pretty good stock of wolves, black bears, and cougars too. Hey, would it be a good idea to hop over the Rockies and get some bison and turn them loose on the grasslands? Feed the natives and have another source of food handy....

[Othniel]

well, you could each have them take one as part of the "whatever you can carry" rule... they don't weigh much... you realize we'd have to build chicken coops PDQ...

oh, Ian's house doesn't get ISOT'd with us... we just go to that location in 5000 BC... it'll be bare grassland, I suppose.

Hmm.. would Ian be going with us? Or is he more powerful than the ASBs...
I know, but as the area around which we are ISOTing its as good as a momument as any...

[Dave Howery]

It would be kinda neat to make a master list of everyone on the board, who'd they'd be bringing with them, what animals, what gear, and what skills they have... and then post it some place... we'd have to make sure that we didn't miss anything necessary or have too many duplicated items though. However, that list would be a major pain, and I doubt anyone has time to do it.

I think I'd get heavy into truck-garden type stuff... go big on potatoes, various fruits (ack! We need oranges or something to prevent scurvy!) and vegetables that don't need new seed every year, things like that... I'd have to take along a lot of basic gardening gear (lots of shovels), some books on that kind of gardening (I'm no expert), etc. I'd take along a pregnant milk cow and a pregnant sow. To be sure, truck garden stuff wouldn't feed all of us, but it'd still be useful and give us some variety in our diet.

oh, my partner... hmm... have to think on that... I'm tempted to say Angelina Jolie, but she doesn't look like the physical labor type. Maybe Michelle Rodriguez... she's young, cute, and has done hard work in her life...

[Othniel]

Of corse when we did get there most of us would speak english. As is most regional accents will in the future of this settlement come to portray parts of the city, mixed in with each other. I wonder what extent it would have...:)

[jolo]

If we're gonna have supermarkets and the likes, I'm gonna bring along a primitive printer and some equipment to produce paper and to prevent forging papers.

I print money which is distributed by a simple method: The elected "government" decides upon community work (building houses, building forts, clearing paths (don't wanna call them roads yet), clearing fields, building irrigation, and so on). The people bid for the contracts, the lowest bidder does the work, and gets the money once/if he or she fullfilled the contract. If someone fails, he or she cannot get similar contracts again without proving the original problem has changed. The people then can use the money for trade. Only as much money may be printed as can be without destroying the prices.

I also print certificates of land ownership. Preferably, land is traded in from the locals, but it may also be aquired in other ways. The according proofs (sale contract, peace contract, or just witness claims) and maps are used to create those certificates. I keep a copy for ensuring their validity. The owners (at the beginning hopefully mainly the community itself) can decide on parting the land. The according plans and the old certificate are given to me, I make the according certificates from them. The owner can sell or lend the (partitioned) land to anyone he or she likes - here too, I'd propose some kind of bidding market. The land sales will also boost the value of my currency, as people have more reason to work to get the money.

I may also use my role to ensure contracts - checking them, maybe making sure they fit to our rules, and keeping a third copy to allow verifying them against any forgeries.

And I may print a small newspaper with ads.

[Flocculencio]

You don't know how much i dislike seafood or the ocean. must be my desert upbringing. :D

I love seafod but I'm quite prepared to let people who are more experienced in such tasks handle that side of things :D

[Flocculencio]

If we're gonna have supermarkets and the likes, I'm gonna bring along a primitive printer and some equipment to produce paper and to prevent forging papers.

I print money which is distributed by a simple method: The elected "government" decides upon community work (building houses, building forts, clearing paths (don't wanna call them roads yet), clearing fields, building irrigation, and so on). The people bid for the contracts, the lowest bidder does the work, and gets the money once/if he or she fullfilled the contract. If someone fails, he or she cannot get similar contracts again without proving the original problem has changed. The people then can use the money for trade. Only as much money may be printed as can be without destroying the prices.

I also print certificates of land ownership. Preferably, land is traded in from the locals, but it may also be aquired in other ways. The according proofs (sale contract, peace contract, or just witness claims) and maps are used to create those certificates. I keep a copy for ensuring their validity. The owners (at the beginning hopefully mainly the community itself) can decide on parting the land. The according plans and the old certificate are given to me, I make the according certificates from them. The owner can sell or lend the (partitioned) land to anyone he or she likes - here too, I'd propose some kind of bidding market. The land sales will also boost the value of my currency, as people have more reason to work to get the money.

I may also use my role to ensure contracts - checking them, maybe making sure they fit to our rules, and keeping a third copy to allow verifying them against any forgeries.

And I may print a small newspaper with ads.

I think you're thinking a bit far ahead- we're going to have to concentrate on pure survival for the first decade or so. No need for a money economy or land ownership- communal livestock/supply pool will probably be more efficient with specialists taking out their animals and tools/weapons "on loan" as it were. I detest communism in most cases but this sort of situation is one of the few where it actually works.

Dave: Bison would be interesting but would herding them over such a distance be feasible? Plus it would be a while before we could spare the men needed for an expedition of that magnitude- would probably take at least 20 men with horses, at least a few firearms and remounts. Although it would be cool- going on an expedition over the Rockies would be fantastic.

[jolo]

I think you're thinking a bit far ahead- we're going to have to concentrate on pure survival for the first decade or so. No need for a money economy or land ownership- communal livestock/supply pool will probably be more efficient with specialists taking out their animals and tools/weapons "on loan" as it were. I detest communism in most cases but this sort of situation is one of the few where it actually works.


While the initial organisation will definitely be done before any such system is set up, money is really useful even for small villages of few hundred people. The same is true for a civilized land ownership system, and other things paper is good for. It also doesn't keep people from exchanging goods and help without charging money - as IOTL. Think about what to do if someone accidentally kills the animal of someone else - with money an easily solveable problem. And lots more.

The thing we're here trying to imagine would be pretty big. So money would be very useful - especially as we'd quickly have specialization in terms of bakeries, butcher shops, and so on.

What I'd propose for the city dwellers - hunters and farmers are a different matter - is first building up the basics - the fort close to Ians home, a fort close to the area the others choose, both with some storage facilities, places to keep the animals, schools if needed, a librairy in one or both of them, and so on.

We'll probably quickly come to a point where everyone shouting orders won't lead to very good results - that's when we'll either have a split up, a "lord of the flies"-like dictatorship, or some kind of communal decision making - which is my preferred solution, if only for the city dwellers.

Once we have that up and running, we can easily take the next steps - money, land ownership-records, ads, and so on.

Therefore, I'd say one week for the basics (including the trek to Amerindian territory), one week for organizing while improving things, one week for people to set up their own homes and working places, and then it's time for money to make sure people have a chance to get something useful for the things they produce, and to make sure people get a reward for their actual achievements, not just for making a busy impression.

[Steffen]

i´m bringing some textbooks and design a legal system second to no one.

quite easy if there isn´t another one, but...

[jolo]

i´m bringing some textbooks and design a legal system second to no one.

quite easy if there isn´t another one, but...

We'll probably need some kind of rules - but I'd prefer to set them up in a democratic process one rule after the other, as they become needed. I'd also prefer a simple system of few abstract rules to keep things civilized without the need of lawyers - like the "20 commandments".

Don't also forget that the legal system should neither make everyone an outlaw, nor be too unpopular - otherwise, it would soon be gone.

[jolo]

We could also use an open "flea" market pretty quickly - to make it easier to exchange goods with the locals, and amongst each other.

[Ward]

We'll probably need some kind of rules - but I'd prefer to set them up in a democratic process one rule after the other, as they become needed. I'd also prefer a simple system of few abstract rules to keep things civilized without the need of lawyers - like the "20 commandments".

Don't also forget that the legal system should neither make everyone an outlaw, nor be too unpopular - otherwise, it would soon be gone.




We could use the 10 comandments as the basic rules to start and work from there . The rest of the rules we could work out in town hall meetings .
As for money every one could take a roll of dimes , penneys , nickles , and quarters . They will last longer than paper money and every one will start with the same amount of money . Are English and Eruo members can bring the equivent in there money ..

As for leaders of the town Ian would be are king and leader to start .
I think with in weeks we will breack down into subgroups that will have a leader these leaders then could make up are governing body ..

[Thande]

Is it wise for us to do all this on a board where we know real authors are watching?

I bet 18 months from now, someone like Stirling or Flint brings out an ISOT book which consists of a group of Internet posters establishing a civilisation in ancient California (that's just their style...)

[Ward]

Why not Then we all could bitch when they get us wrong in the book .

[Flocculencio]

The thing we're here trying to imagine would be pretty big. So money would be very useful - especially as we'd quickly have specialization in terms of bakeries, butcher shops, and so on.

What I'd propose for the city dwellers - hunters and farmers are a different matter - is first building up the basics - the fort close to Ians home, a fort close to the area the others choose, both with some storage facilities, places to keep the animals, schools if needed, a librairy in one or both of them, and so on.

We'll probably quickly come to a point where everyone shouting orders won't lead to very good results - that's when we'll either have a split up, a "lord of the flies"-like dictatorship, or some kind of communal decision making - which is my preferred solution, if only for the city dwellers.

Once we have that up and running, we can easily take the next steps - money, land ownership-records, ads, and so on.

I still think you're overestimating the complexity of our society and the ease with which we're going to get established. My personal view is that New England township style democracy and an economy will have to wait a few years until we get a food surplus. Until then the most efficient way to organise the group would be like an army with all specialist groups and general labourers taking orders based on decisions that the farming specialists (who are going to be our only hope for long-term survival) make for the good of the crops. We ain't in Kansas anymore Toto.

Therefore, I'd say one week for the basics (including the trek to Amerindian territory), one week for organizing while improving things, one week for people to set up their own homes and working places, and then it's time for money to make sure people have a chance to get something useful for the things they produce, and to make sure people get a reward for their actual achievements, not just for making a busy impression.

Also, I have to remind you that Ian's home (i.e. the San Jose area) is a really, really bad place to try to set up the main settlement when much cooler and moister lands are just a week's trek away at most.

[jolo]

We could use the 10 comandments as the basic rules to start and work from there . The rest of the rules we could work out in town hall meetings .
As for money every one could take a roll of dimes , penneys , nickles , and quarters . They will last longer than paper money and every one will start with the same amount of money . Are English and Eruo members can bring the equivent in there money ..

As for leaders of the town Ian would be are king and leader to start .
I think with in weeks we will breack down into subgroups that will have a leader these leaders then could make up are governing body ..

Personally, I prefer some more separation of state and church - and also rules which are about community life, not personal matters - if people don't mind adultery, it's their business - even though doing it against the consent of the partner might be treated like a breach of contract.

Coins are heavy - especially if it's supposed to be enough to trade big things and small things. But it should be possible to find some suitable material quickly and mint coins ourselves - for small deals actually better than paper money. We wanna quickly establish metal melting, anyways. We might also avoid all the hassle with stealing of money by creating accounts as soon as the money gets too much to store at home.

And elections can wait, I admit.

[Flocculencio]

Actually regarding the coins- metal's probably going to be too useful for practical uses rather than wasting it as currency. Maybe wooden tokens would be a more practical option?

[jolo]

Is it wise for us to do all this on a board where we know real authors are watching?

I bet 18 months from now, someone like Stirling or Flint brings out an ISOT book which consists of a group of Internet posters establishing a civilisation in ancient California (that's just their style...)

So what? I'm not about to write a book, and there are millions of forums to look for ideas, if one has a blockage. To me, it's fun, if someone makes money from it, maybe I'll learn from him and do the same...

And if someone makes a lot of profit, maybe he'll donate a new server to Ian, or a little car to each of us who helped him... :p - just kidding... (even though it might motivate me to spend even more time here :) ).

[Grimm Reaper]

I can see my outrage now! :mad:

Yes, your honor. I am suing the esteemed Mr Stirling due to the severe emotional stress caused by his description of me in his latest book "Anarchy For The Ages: An ISOT Cautionary Tale". His description of my character was correct, perceptive, and completely accurate and I demand immediate compensation.

Ward, didn't you see the clause regarding chosen celebrity bride for the unwed and unattached AHers? How does that correlate with the "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife' thingie?

[Flocculencio]

Is it wise for us to do all this on a board where we know real authors are watching?

I bet 18 months from now, someone like Stirling or Flint brings out an ISOT book which consists of a group of Internet posters establishing a civilisation in ancient California (that's just their style...)

Well you could say that about any of the posts on these forums- all anyone has to do is register and there's the entire Writers Forum there to be stolen from.

Turtledove, for one, would probably love to write a book or five where a Muslim Europe launches a crusade to reclaim the Christian Holy Land.

However, I'd like to think that the writers who do post here aren't as big jerks as stealing ideas from hobbyists would imply.

[jolo]

I still think you're overestimating the complexity of our society and the ease with which we're going to get established. My personal view is that New England township style democracy and an economy will have to wait a few years until we get a food surplus. Until then the most efficient way to organise the group would be like an army with all specialist groups and general labourers taking orders based on decisions that the farming specialists (who are going to be our only hope for long-term survival) make for the good of the crops. We ain't in Kansas anymore Toto.


Complexity is not what I'm concerned with - I only believe it would make it much easier to concentrate on the important and effective things if money tells us which that are. Without this tool, our specialists will be very likely to bother too much with unimportant things, and too little with important things. Just look at tools: Some people like simple tools, others like complex tools. The simple tools would lead to an economy, the complex tools would lead to another economy. The more successful side has automatically more money, so that more people can be payed to repair the according tools, who again will be able to do more to develop the needed tech. The same is true for decisions between hunting, gathering, fishing, farming, herding, and so on. Money makes life much easier, and increases our chances for survival dramatically.


Also, I have to remind you that Ian's home (i.e. the San Jose area) is a really, really bad place to try to set up the main settlement when much cooler and moister lands are just a week's trek away at most.


The better lands will also have more locals. We can't fight off 100 000 of them, should things go bad. And we have all the knowledge necessary to use just one all-year-river in the area to irrigate enough farm land for all of us. I'm also pretty sure a small settlement there should add to specialisation and therefore success - if we need to stay there for a few weeks anyways, why not keep what we needed to build up in that time? Though if the main settlement succeeds, it would probably be worth it to concentrate there.

[NapoleonXIV]

Why are you guys all planning on doing everything yourselves? 5000 years ago the area had people.

And these people will come after you if you don't come after them.

Why not just bring along whatever is necessary to produce gunpowder and flintlock rifles, establish a factory protected by MBarry and Ward's armory and expertise at first, find some curious locals and become the Wizards of the Coast?

You could concentrate on providing guns of better and better quality, making sure that noone figured out how you were making them and managing your harems of pretty indian girls. (Kitjed and Fellatio can establish some elite fighting units)

Let them build and farm and hunt for you and you make them by far the strongest and best fed tribe in the area. Seems an even exchange to me.

[jolo]

Why are you guys all planning on doing everything yourselves? 5000 years ago the area had people.

And these people will come after you if you don't come after them.

Why not just bring along whatever is necessary to produce gunpowder and flintlock rifles, establish a factory protected by MBarry and Ward's armory and expertise at first, find some curious locals and become the Wizards of the Coast?

You could concentrate on providing guns of better and better quality, making sure that noone figured out how you were making them and managing your harems of pretty indian girls. (Kitjed and Fellatio can establish some elite fighting units)

Let them build and farm and hunt for you and you make them by far the strongest and best fed tribe in the area. Seems an even exchange to me.

I'd definitely be for cooperating with the locals and letting them live and work in our cities and on our farms. Money might have the advantage of not needing to force anyone, which might make things more peaceful and effective. If they see they can get some of our tools for some bear skin, they'll work for us and we'll work for them - much more productive than only one side working for the other.

[Flocculencio]

The better lands will also have more locals. We can't fight off 100 000 of them, should things go bad. And we have all the knowledge necessary to use just one all-year-river in the area to irrigate enough farm land for all of us. I'm also pretty sure a small settlement there should add to specialisation and therefore success - if we need to stay there for a few weeks anyways, why not keep what we needed to build up in that time? Though if the main settlement succeeds, it would probably be worth it to concentrate there.

There probably aren't going to be 100k locals. I seriously doubt that the Bay Area in 5000BC supported anywhere near that number.

Besides from a purely comfort-wise level, I'd rather put in a month of hard work at the beginning hauling everything up to Berkeley than spend every summer of my life nearly dying of heatstroke in the South Bay without air conditioning. Plus, the North Bay is going to be nearer the more forested sites which we'll desperately need for fuel and building materials.

Napoleon: We make peace with them if we can, offer no violence unless directly threatened and encourage as many of them as possible to join our society. However this assumes that the locals will survive contact with our germs- now as was previously stated we probably won't be carrying smallpox or anything like that but for all we know 90% of them might drop dead of the 'flu.

Also, once word of horses and cattle spreads to more distant tribes we might find them trying to raid.

Also, I for one, would vote against trading horses, livestock and gun with local tribes who do not join us. It'd be profitable but a long term recipe for disaster. The tribes who do join us, of course, would recieve all the benefits of any other members of our society.

Napoleon- I agree with your thoughts re. flintlocks for the long term but in the first few decades metal is going to be scarce and hard to come by. There's a limit for the amount of metal and sulphur we can bring (though charcoal and saltpetre will be able to be sourced locally). Also, metal's going to be more useful for replacing farm implements and tools- firearms, though important, will have to take second stage to these which is why they'll be so precious. This is why when I was talking with Psycho I suggested keeping the guns within the settlements for defence and hunting and having a company of mounted lancers for perimeter security and communication between the base and the logging/hunting settlements.

[NapoleonXIV]

Well you could say that about any of the posts on these forums- all anyone has to do is register and there's the entire Writers Forum there to be stolen from.

Turtledove, for one, would probably love to write a book or five where a Muslim Europe launches a crusade to reclaim the Christian Holy Land.

However, I'd like to think that the writers who do post here aren't as big jerks as stealing ideas from hobbyists would imply.

It isn't ideas that make stories, it's good writing, assiduous research and a hardworking agent:D . There's really Nothing New Under the Sun.

And ISOT, Islands on the Sea of Time, gee, that sounds like a good book title:D

[Flocculencio]

Looking at the pattern of the posts below I feel like I'm going to be the Walker figure- the one who's advocating a disciplined, tightly controlled societal structure :D

Edit: Or perhaps more like Randall Flagg the Walkin' Dude from The Stand minus the freaky supernatural powers.

[Flocculencio]

It isn't ideas that make stories, it's good writing, assiduous research and a hardworking agent:D . There's really Nothing New Under the Sun.

The first would seem to be pretty optional judging by the quality of most published fiction :D

[Ward]

Personally, I prefer some more separation of state and church - and also rules which are about community life, not personal matters - if people don't mind adultery, it's their business - even though doing it against the consent of the partner might be treated like a breach of contract.

Coins are heavy - especially if it's supposed to be enough to trade big things and small things. But it should be possible to find some suitable material quickly and mint coins ourselves - for small deals actually better than paper money. We wanna quickly establish metal melting, anyways. We might also avoid all the hassle with stealing of money by creating accounts as soon as the money gets too much to store at home.

And elections can wait, I admit.




Yes but most of the comandments are easy to rember .
as for money coins are small and easy to carry when $.0.50 a day is what a person earns for a day . Plus the will last for years which is better then paper money will .

[Matt]

Is it wise for us to do all this on a board where we know real authors are watching?

I bet 18 months from now, someone like Stirling or Flint brings out an ISOT book which consists of a group of Internet posters establishing a civilisation in ancient California (that's just their style...)


Well we all save this on our computers, print out a copy and mail it to ourselves. Leave the envelope sealed. The post mark would verify the date that the idea was concieved. Then we take em to court for violation of IT :).

Paper money? The money well be inheritingly valueless. Without anything to back it, who well be willing to use it in the exchange of goods? The communial style of living that well be established at first well preclude the need for it. If you want to eat, you work. You need shelter? You work. Simple as that.

[Flocculencio]

Yeah but perhaps modifying the commandments to the following three might be a better option

1) Thou shalt not steal

2) Thou shalt not commit murder

3) Thou shalt not shirk

[Flocculencio]

Paper money? The money well be inheritingly valueless. Without anything to back it, who well be willing to use it in the exchange of goods? The communial style of living that well be established at first well preclude the need for it. If you want to eat, you work. You need shelter? You work. Simple as that.

Exactly- this is what I was trying to say. Thanks, MBarry!

[Matt]

Exactly- this is what I was trying to say. Thanks, MBarry!


Thanks ;)

When I was younger me and my friends were obsessed with the post-apocalyspe genre. When we devolped our own scenerios my best friend at the time thought that a few years down the road dollars would still be worth something. I couldn't get it through his thick skull that money would be worthless without gold or silver to back it up, or the government letting us know how much said dollar is worth.

Well paper money help you capture game? No.
Well paper money help you forage for food? No.
Well paper money build shelter? No.
Well paper money provide heat? Yes, but it burns really fast :p
Well paper money feed you? No.
Then why would you want paper money if you survival is at stake? It more practical to so something thusly:

Flocc is hungery. Flocc needs bread. Flocc agrees to become one of the "warrior" class. In exchange for protecting our outpost, the community agrees to support him. If he shrinks from his duties, or fails them; you don't eat

[NapoleonXIV]

Napoleon: We make peace with them if we can, offer no violence unless directly threatened and encourage as many of them as possible to join our society. However this assumes that the locals will survive contact with our germs- now as was previously stated we probably won't be carrying smallpox or anything like that but for all we know 90% of them might drop dead of the 'flu.

Also, once word of horses and cattle spreads to more distant tribes we might find them trying to raid.

Also, I for one, would vote against trading horses, livestock and gun with local tribes who do not join us. It'd be profitable but a long term recipe for disaster. The tribes who do join us, of course, would recieve all the benefits of any other members of our society.

Napoleon- I agree with your thoughts re. flintlocks for the long term but in the first few decades metal is going to be scarce and hard to come by. There's a limit for the amount of metal and sulphur we can bring (though charcoal and saltpetre will be able to be sourced locally). Also, metal's going to be more useful for replacing farm implements and tools- firearms, though important, will have to take second stage to these which is why they'll be so precious. This is why when I was talking with Psycho I suggested keeping the guns within the settlements for defence and hunting and having a company of mounted lancers for perimeter security and communication between the base and the logging/hunting settlements.

I didn't factor in the disease killing everyone and it is true that for the first few months you're going to be hard pressed to make anything. But metal is actually abundant and in purer form if you know where to look. I still think you might be able to carry enough ammo back to protect yourselves for the few months necessary to make an 18thc technology, given that you have 21stc know how.

I just want to make sure Luakel has a necessary and satisfying job. He's got no experience or training in anything but boy, could a 13 year old keep a harem happy or what?:D

[Tyr]

We really should do some form of ISOT game.

SF wouldn't be ideal- too out of the way of mainstream civilization with not much known about it. Also Conquistador has already done it.


When I was younger me and my friends were obsessed with the post-apocalyspe genre. When we devolped our own scenerios my best friend at the time thought that a few years down the road dollars would still be worth something. I couldn't get it through his thick skull that money would be worthless without gold or silver to back it up, or the government letting us know how much said dollar is worth.

Well paper money help you capture game? No.
Well paper money help you forage for food? No.
Well paper money build shelter? No.
Well paper money provide heat? Yes, but it burns really fast
Well paper money feed you? No.
Then why would you want paper money if you survival is at stake? It more practical to so something thusly
Depends how post-apoc we are getting. If everyone still believes money is worth something then it is worth something.

[Matt]

Depends how post-apoc we are getting. If everyone still believes money is worth something then it is worth something.


True. That was he's take. But in a system where a currency is credit backed, it gets its value via a person's faith in the government to enforce it's value. When said goverment ceases to exist....

[jolo]

Paper money? The money well be inheritingly valueless. Without anything to back it, who well be willing to use it in the exchange of goods? The communial style of living that well be established at first well preclude the need for it. If you want to eat, you work. You need shelter? You work. Simple as that.


Without money, trade will be difficult. Imagine a hunter who brings a bear or some other big animal to the town. Without money, he'll have difficulties finding someone who'll take the bear professionally apart - leading to quite a mess quite often, at least until people figured it out themselves. Then, the hunter will have difficulties to get what he needs in return for the meat - he'll probably need ammunition, some portable food, equipment for his horse, and so on - if none of the people he finds who just like to have some meat have what he needs, he is basically forced to give away the meat for free, there's a big party, everyone will like this guy, but he still won't get what he needs. The next day, people hear about the party and the few people who could help him are pissed because they weren't there, too. With money, the same hunter will go to the next Butcher, get the usual price for the good, and use the money to get whatever he needs. He'll also have a little party, but a few days later, as he can spend the money whenever he likes, and that gives him enough time to reach all his friends. Or take two farmers: One has one food, the other another food. Both think their food is the more valuable. How are they ever going to trade to get a healthy nutrition? The same is true for every kind of trade - the advantages of money are too good even if there were only a hundred people.

The easiest way to get a value for the money would be to set certain prices for every kind of community activity - if a farmer wants his land ownership in paper to get herders or other farmers out, he has to pay a fee. If two people argue and want to settle it in front of a community trial or the likes, the looser has to pay a fee. If people want to use community property (like a spot in the community market), they have to pay a fee. And so on. Once it's established, the community only needs to avoid the temptation of producing too much money, to keep the value up.

An easy start might be to just give everyone some of this money, so that buying and selling starts at the same time.

[Flocculencio]

Flocc is hungery. Flocc needs bread. Flocc agrees to become one of the "warrior" class. In exchange for protecting our outpost, the community agrees to support him. If he shrinks from his duties, or fails them; you don't eat

An excellent summation :D

I don't know if I'd see myself as part of a "warrior class"- keeping the herds secure and ensuring regular communication between the settlements is more like it. "Messenger Class" maybe.

Napoleon- whereabouts are the nearest iron deposits to the Bay? And what about sulphur? You'll have to factor in that every man we sent to extract ore is going to need food supplies sent up from the plains. Said food caravans will probably have to be guarded and all kinds of other considerations. Said mining settlement is going to have a minumum size so that it can defend itself from hostiles and every man at the mines is one less man logging in the hills or hunting in the North Bay or farming at Berkeley. It might be decades before we can spare the manpower even if we do manage to get surviving natives to join us. Some of them will but there will probably be a large proportion of suvivors who see us as cursebringers and will be hostile- our priority must be making sure that no metal, livestock or horses falls into the hands of these hotsiles. Every man we lose from the 21st century is an irreplaceable loss seeing as we all have our own strange titbits of useful information.

I don't mean to be a killjoy but I think that most of you guys are being a bit overambitious.

[Flocculencio]

Without money, trade will be difficult. Imagine a hunter who brings a bear or some other big animal to the town. Without money, he'll have difficulties finding someone who'll take the bear professionally apart - leading to quite a mess quite often, at least until people figured it out themselves. Then, the hunter will have difficulties to get what he needs in return for the meat - he'll probably need ammunition, some portable food, equipment for his horse, and so on - if none of the people he finds who just like to have some meat have what he needs, he is basically forced to give away the meat for free, there's a big party, everyone will like this guy, but he still won't get what he needs.

This is what communal stockpiles are for

The hunters bring the meat in, and get their share of grain and what not. The loggers send down a consignment of timber and the same goes for them. The riders facilitate communications and defend the herds and they get their share.

[Ward]

Thanks ;)

When I was younger me and my friends were obsessed with the post-apocalyspe genre. When we devolped our own scenerios my best friend at the time thought that a few years down the road dollars would still be worth something. I couldn't get it through his thick skull that money would be worthless without gold or silver to back it up, or the government letting us know how much said dollar is worth.

Well paper money help you capture game? No.
Well paper money help you forage for food? No.
Well paper money build shelter? No.
Well paper money provide heat? Yes, but it burns really fast :p
Well paper money feed you? No.
Then why would you want paper money if you survival is at stake? It more practical to so something thusly:

Flocc is hungery. Flocc needs bread. Flocc agrees to become one of the "warrior" class. In exchange for protecting our outpost, the community agrees to support him. If he shrinks from his duties, or fails them; you don't eat



No but what about other goods , Rember most communes faild because not everyone is willing to work as hard as the next person . Now let us say MBarry comes home from traping with three bevers skins and 2 fox skins
Now let say my wife wants the bever skins how would I get them for her .
If there were not some sort of iteam to exchange . Also with in a few years the natives would be exchangeing things with us . And coins are shiny and good trade iteams .
Also medal ideams last longer than you think rember roman swords and spears were still around in the midle ages .

As for laws how about this
1 no murdering some one
2 no hurting each other
3 no stealing
4 no work no food


I do not know how many of you have ever had to cook anything but I have eaten food cooked by some cooks that tastes like nothing and some else can make it taste good .How do we get the good cooks to cook if they do not get some in exchange for there work . How do I get my Beer from the brewer if he gets the same as I do . But he makes Beer from his own little guarden crops .

Also how are we going to make a chose of who dose what .
yes I can farm but I also can do word working and throw pots , and make candles . What if all I want to do is baby set the kids how are you going to make me work on the farm . I'm doing something that need to be done .


Also what about the Gay Guys do they get mates who are male or female ?
If Female do they have to have children with these women ?

[Ward]

Thanks ;)

When I was younger me and my friends were obsessed with the post-apocalyspe genre. When we devolped our own scenerios my best friend at the time thought that a few years down the road dollars would still be worth something. I couldn't get it through his thick skull that money would be worthless without gold or silver to back it up, or the government letting us know how much said dollar is worth.

Well paper money help you capture game? No.
Well paper money help you forage for food? No.
Well paper money build shelter? No.
Well paper money provide heat? Yes, but it burns really fast :p
Well paper money feed you? No.
Then why would you want paper money if you survival is at stake? It more practical to so something thusly:

Flocc is hungery. Flocc needs bread. Flocc agrees to become one of the "warrior" class. In exchange for protecting our outpost, the community agrees to support him. If he shrinks from his duties, or fails them; you don't eat



No but what about other goods , Rember most communes faild because not everyone is willing to work as hard as the next person . Now let us say MBarry comes home from traping with three bevers skins and 2 fox skins
Now let say my wife wants the bever skins how would I get them for her .
If there were not some sort of iteam to exchange . Also with in a few years the natives would be exchangeing things with us . And coins are shiny and good trade iteams .
Also medal ideams last longer than you think rember roman swords and spears were still around in the midle ages .

As for laws how about this
1 no murdering some one
2 no hurting each other
3 no stealing
4 no work no food


I do not know how many of you have ever had to cook anything but I have eaten food cooked by some cooks that tastes like nothing and some else can make it taste good .How do we get the good cooks to cook if they do not get some in exchange for there work . How do I get my Beer from the brewer if he gets the same as I do . But he makes Beer from his own little guarden crops .

Also how are we going to make a chose of who dose what .
yes I can farm but I also can do word working and throw pots , and make candles . What if all I want to do is baby set the kids how are you going to make me work on the farm . I'm doing something that need to be done .


Also what about the Gay Guys do they get mates who are male or female ?
If Female do they have to have children with these women ?

[Matt]

Ah, but you missed my caevet Ward. Paper money is useless. Hard currency(be it gold, copper, silver, even bronze) would still hold it value, because it would have an external value.

[jolo]

Thanks ;)

When I was younger me and my friends were obsessed with the post-apocalyspe genre. When we devolped our own scenerios my best friend at the time thought that a few years down the road dollars would still be worth something. I couldn't get it through his thick skull that money would be worthless without gold or silver to back it up, or the government letting us know how much said dollar is worth.

Well paper money help you capture game? No.
Well paper money help you forage for food? No.
Well paper money build shelter? No.
Well paper money provide heat? Yes, but it burns really fast :p
Well paper money feed you? No.
Then why would you want paper money if you survival is at stake? It more practical to so something thusly:

Flocc is hungery. Flocc needs bread. Flocc agrees to become one of the "warrior" class. In exchange for protecting our outpost, the community agrees to support him. If he shrinks from his duties, or fails them; you don't eat

Paper money will help get the needed things in return for captured game.

Paper money will help people decide how much time to spend foraging food - if it's better to work somewhere and buy the food and some more from the wages on the market, they'll do that instead.

Paper money will make sure the housing will have something to do with the achievements - if only to make everyone see where the money is best made.

The money will make sure people produce as much as they consume - allowing specialisation in wood cutting, hunting, farming, or the likes according to talent. It'll also make sure people make fire from the cheapest materials, not from materials needed for other purposes.

Money will make sure you not only get the foods you produce yourself, but foods other people produce, thus ensuring a healthy (or at least tasty) nutrition. Money makes sure you produce what people eat, so less is thrown away in good times, allowing better concentration in other areas. Money makes sure people eat what can easily be produced, also reducing waste of productivity.

Money makes sure people concentrate on the valuable trades. If even mediocre hunters go hunting, we'll have a big meat surplus and lots of fun. But we'll loose a lot of productivity in other, more useful areas. It might also become more difficult to equip hunters with weapons and ammunition, so that we may even hunt on nearly the same technological level as the locals after a few years, instead of the other way around.

[Steffen]

But with paper money, you need a central authority which issues it and guarantees the buying power.

Civilisation is administration.

[jolo]

This is what communal stockpiles are for

The hunters bring the meat in, and get their share of grain and what not. The loggers send down a consignment of timber and the same goes for them. The riders facilitate communications and defend the herds and they get their share.

And how do you value the stocks? How much ammo, grain, and so on do I get for a bear? Who decides that? Who keeps half the people from herding herds when other things are more important? How do we realize what's more important without wasting too much effort on difficult projects like building complicated tools and machinery? How do we decide how many people have to do which job? How do we explain the hundreth Amerindian bringing something that he'll get less for it than the Amerindian from the day before?And so on. Your system will lead to lots of fighting and little productivity.

[Flocculencio]

No but what about other goods , Rember most communes faild because not everyone is willing to work as hard as the next person

It's quite simple- they work or they die.

I do not know how many of you have ever had to cook anything but I have eaten food cooked by some cooks that tastes like nothing and some else can make it taste good .How do we get the good cooks to cook if they do not get some in exchange for there work . How do I get my Beer from the brewer if he gets the same as I do . But he makes Beer from his own little guarden crops.

I don't think we're going to be worrying about good food for the first few years- boiled potatoes, milk and beer give you al the nutrients you need.

Sure, after we get on our feet we can start moving away from the communal system but for the first few years it's the most efficient way to survive.

Also how are we going to make a chose of who dose what .
yes I can farm but I also can do word working and throw pots , and make candles . What if all I want to do is baby set the kids how are you going to make me work on the farm . I'm doing something that need to be done .


Well we have people who have useful specialties. For the purposes of simplicity let's take four sectors as a case study

A few with farming experience

A few with carpentry experience

A few with hunting/fishing experience

A few with military experience

The rest are your normal urban first-worlders who know a bit about various things but aren't really specialised (of course you have other specialists such as doctors/paramedics etc but lets stick with the above four for argument)

So basically the senior among each group of specialists gets to pick the men he needs. You'll need a lot of farmers and builders, somewhat fewer hunters and a small number of warriors. Thus, the majority would go to the farms and settlements, some would go out on hunting expeditions and a few would start scouting the area and preparing to hunt down raiders if that proves necessary.

In the first few years what you want will have nothing to do with it. If you're able bodied you farm or log or build, if you're a good woodsman you hunt or fish, if you can follow orders you join the guards. Then within those groups specialisations will get sorted out. Say Ward finds that you're good at candlemaking- you become a candlemaker, or WeaponM finds that you can shoot well from horseback- you become the gunner for a squad of lancers. If you're less capable for physical tasks then you get to take care of the children.

I'm afraid that for the first few years we're all going to have to put ourselves in the hands of the specialists.

[Matt]

Without money, trade will be difficult.


It's called the Barter System. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter) Societies functioned, surprisingly enough, for thousands of years before the invention of paper money.

[jolo]

Ah, but you missed my caevet Ward. Paper money is useless. Hard currency(be it gold, copper, silver, even bronze) would still hold it value, because it would have an external value.

If someone finds a streak of copper and mints lots of coins himself, the coins would also loose value. Fixed prices for all kinds of community services would be completely sufficient to make people want and value some money. Once that's the case, it's easy to let the market determine a value for it. Than we automatically have funtioning trade. The Germans used Nazi-Reichsmark up to 1949. The only ones who need to accept it, are the ones who play the role of some kind of authority or community organizers.

[Flocculencio]

It's called the Barter System. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter) Societies functioned, surprisingly enough, for thousands of years before the invention of paper money.

Yep money is useful for a complex society but for the first decade or so a communal system will work better.

[jolo]

It's quite simple- they work or they die.



I don't think we're going to be worrying about good food for the first few years- boiled potatoes, milk and beer give you al the nutrients you need.

Sure, after we get on our feet we can start moving away from the communal system but for the first few years it's the most efficient way to survive.



Well we have people who have useful specialties. For the purposes of simplicity let's take four sectors as a case study

A few with farming experience

A few with carpentry experience

A few with hunting/fishing experience

A few with military experience

The rest are your normal urban first-worlders who know a bit about various things but aren't really specialised (of course you have other specialists such as doctors/paramedics etc but lets stick with the above four for argument)

So basically the senior among each group of specialists gets to pick the men he needs. You'll need a lot of farmers and builders, somewhat fewer hunters and a small number of warriors. Thus, the majority would go to the farms and settlements, some would go out on hunting expeditions and a few would start scouting the area and preparing to hunt down raiders if that proves necessary.

In the first few years what you want will have nothing to do with it. If you're able bodied you farm or log or build, if you're a good woodsman you hunt or fish, if you can follow orders you join the guards. Then within those groups specialisations will get sorted out. Say Ward finds that you're good at candlemaking- you become a candlemaker, or WeaponM finds that you can shoot well from horseback- you become the gunner for a squad of lancers. If you're less capable for physical tasks then you get to take care of the children.

I'm afraid that for the first few years we're all going to have to put ourselves in the hands of the specialists.

Your system will lead to a lot of injustice towards people whose work is important but not highly regarded - which again would make survival unnecessarily difficult.

I'm also afraid it'll simply not work very well, leading to much less use of our knowledge than might be the case.

And what happens when there are more specialists than needed in one area, and less than needed in another area?

But as no-one needs to be forced to accept paper money, I'd join the ones who understand the use and we'd establish it among us first - then a hunter can decide freely whether to accept money, or whether to spend so much time looking for useful barter until the game begins to rot.

[Flocculencio]

Your system will lead to a lot of injustice towards people whose work is important but not highly regarded - which again would make survival unnecessarily difficult

Yeah so? I can teach but that skill isn't going to be useful for a few years. On the other hand, I've got military training which will be useful so I can usefully serve in that capacity.

Justice is secondary to survival. If I'm going to be stuck in the wilderness with no hope of return I want to be sure that people aren't going to be grumbling about voting for leaders when there are specialists whose orders we should all follow to survive.

And what happens when there are more specialists than needed in one area, and less than needed in another area?

Then we make do.

[jolo]

It's called the Barter System. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter) Societies functioned, surprisingly enough, for thousands of years before the invention of paper money.

If you include unconventional kinds of money, than money existed much longer. Germans used blades as currency, Japanese rice, and some more. I suppose even the hand-axe was used as currency - sometimes even peacefully. And also, only few of us would want to live under the conditions those people lived - close to starvation every once in a while, with malnutrition and according illnesses every once in a while, without any useful medical system, with either no conveniences, or an inefficient deadly "modernization" communist style, and so on.

[Flocculencio]

And also, only few of us would want to live under the conditions those people lived .

Y'know it's not as if we have much of a choice.

I keep repeating this- for the first few years, maybe the first decade, we're going to be pretty much subsistence farming. There's going to be little personal property, little scope for individual innovation. After we start accumulating food surpluses then we can start thinking about all the other stuff.

[jolo]

Yeah so? I can teach but that skill isn't going to be useful for a few years. On the other hand, I've got military training which will be useful so I can usefully serve in that capacity.


How do you decide when to change from hunting to teaching? Without money, you'd change when you are too old to hunt, at which time you have also forgotten a lot or might even be too old for effective teaching. With money, you'll teach once it gives you more in return, maybe with a little time of indecision inbetween, but usually still much earlier - according to the need of the community.


Justice is secondary to survival. If I'm going to be stuck in the wilderness with no hope of return I want to be sure that people aren't going to be grumbling about voting for leaders when there are specialists whose orders we should all follow to survive.


Everyone will be a potential specialist for something - even the older kids after a few years. Who decides which of those specialists will have the say? Money would easily propel the people with the right trades into the position to employ people. It's a way to vote for leaders only by their importance.


Then we make do.


But not as good as could be - which might be less good than necessary for survival.

[jolo]

Y'know it's not as if we have much of a choice.

I keep repeating this- for the first few years, maybe the first decade, we're going to be pretty much subsistence farming. There's going to be little personal property, little scope for individual innovation. After we start accumulating food surpluses then we can start thinking about all the other stuff.

I don't see a reason to start in the stone age. It doesn't even take up much work to establish a currency and ensure it works - but it'll help make even the earliest steps much more efficient and therefore successful than a simple do-as-you-like approach.

Also, I believe money will be much better motivation than force. And among the people cooperating under other people's lead, there are only those two choices.

[Flocculencio]

Everyone will be a potential specialist for something - even the older kids after a few years.


Once again the aforemantioned communal system will only need to last until we get proper food surpluses coming in. Then we can relax.

Heres how it would work

You have the logging camp, the hunting/fishing camp and the base camp.

These are kept in touch with each other by the patrolling guards (lets say it takes a week for the guards to make a full circuit of the camps). Every fortnight, the hunters and the loggers send down a consignment of salted meat and lumber with the guards. The guards then escort consignments of grain, potatoes and tools to the loggers and hunters.

The diet will be monotonous but it'll be survivable.

Then, once we're firmly settled (say ten years) and have started producing surpluses people can try to start homesteading on patches of their own if they so wish. It's during this phase that a money economy can logically start coming back into being.

[jolo]

Once again the aforemantioned communal system will only need to last until we get proper food surpluses coming in. Then we can relax.

Heres how it would work

You have the logging camp, the hunting/fishing camp and the base camp.

These are kept in touch with each other by the patrolling guards (lets say it takes a week for the guards to make a full circuit of the camps). Every fortnight, the hunters and the loggers send down a consignment of salted meat and lumber with the guards. The guards then escort consignments of grain, potatoes and tools to the loggers and hunters.

The diet will be monotonous but it'll be survivable.

Then, once we're firmly settled (say ten years) and have started producing surpluses people can try to start homesteading on patches of their own if they so wish. It's during this phase that a money economy can logically start coming back into being.

What you describe is a planned command economy - and it won't even be able to make a useful decision on how many people to send on patrol - a few raids by some Amerindians will be enough to make far too many people go on those trips, so that the losses due to work not done and additional fighting are far more than the losses due to raids - even if only counting human lifes. The same is true for deciding how many people will log trees. And so on.

For a military expedition lasting only for a few weeks, or being payed by a functioning economy at home, that might work. For founding a new colony, it'll be a waste of time.

It'll also make it difficult to use opportunities - trade with Amerindians, Amerindian workers, new found ressources, and so on.

And what if the loggers are given another food because the usual food is not available? If they don't like it, they will feel betrayed and maybe stop logging or deliver only half the logs. There are even more possible conflicts which wouldn't appear if money is used.

What if someone is personally convinced that it's time for him to do sth. more productive - will he be forced to stick to his old job, just because there are also few people there? How's he payed if he's allowed to do what he likes to do? With money, that problem is solved without even a bad word.

But as I said that everyone should be free to choose to work for money or in moneyless groups, and everyone should be free to barter or to trade, this matter should be settled (to my favour :p ).

[Flocculencio]

And what if the loggers are given another food because the usual food is not available? If they don't like it, they will feel betrayed and maybe stop logging or deliver only half the logs. There are even more possible conflicts which wouldn't appear if money is used.

What if someone is personally convinced that it's time for him to do sth. more productive - will he be forced to stick to his old job, just because there are also few people there? How's he payed if he's allowed to do what he likes to do? With money, that problem is solved without even a bad word.

I don't understand what you mean by liking and not liking stuff. We're trying to survive here...

NVM- I give up :rolleyes:

[Imajin]

I would be completely useless and a likely drain of resources...

[Matt]

I would be completely useless and a likely drain of resources...


Can you dig a hole? How about swing an axe?

[jolo]

I would be completely useless and a likely drain of resources...

If you don't make enough money to survive, we'll give you to the sadists in one of the hunting parties... :p

[Flocculencio]

Can you dig a hole? How about swing an axe?

Or saw planks, or feed the cattle?

Yeah everyone can be useful.

If you don't make enough money to survive, we'll give you to the sadists in one of the hunting parties...:p

You make us sound like the Minbari warrior caste from B5 :D

[Psychomeltdown]

I don't see what's all the argument about money is. As Flocc said, this is about survival in the beginning. You don't work you don't eat. with nothing backing the bills and coins you have, then they're useless.

There's not enough of a surplus to sell anything t anyone. What you make is basically consumed by the immediate group, your family and friends. Paying someone in coin is not going to mean anything, if there's nothing o buy.

What you bring with you in the beginning is not enough to become a trader, after all the most you can probably bring is about 500 lbs of equipment and much of that will have to be food, tools, seeds. Everyone else will be in the same situation, they'll be bringing things that probably won't be enough to allow for sole survival. Therefore they'll need help from the other members.

Everything is going to have to be built up from scratch. We'll only have tools and knowledge.

If you don't make enough money to survive, we'll give you to the sadists in one of the hunting parties... Hey. I'm going to be one of the hunters. :p And if I manage to get a surplus of food or hides, I'm not exchanging it for money. There's always something that's needed. Food, tools, knick knacks.

[Ward]

Rember with the seeds we can bring with us we will be much better of than
most colonies ever were . Rember we know of pataols and orions and many other foods that other cultures did not know about . So most people could have Guardens that can feed them almost all year long .
Also in this area of Cal. can we get 3 crops in a year .

[Psychomeltdown]

Also in this area of Cal. can we get 3 crops in a year .
So what would be the main crops?

Potatoes
Wheat
Corn?

We'll also need crops that'll put nutrients back into the grounds, I think Peanuts and peas can do that, don't know what others can.

Plus we'll need alfalfa or some kind of hay for the draft animals. Also we'll probably need to bring along some seeds for grazing grasses, since I think it was said that the grasses in NA at the time weren't as good as some that adapted in other places.

As for plows, how are we going to work that one out? horse drawn plows are pretty much the way to go, but I doubt we can bring a fully functional plow, mainly because of the weight. What we'll have to do is probably just bring along the blade and see if we can make the rest of it from what we have. How many are needed to produce enough grain and other crops for a group whose diet will hopefully be half grain half meat. How many acres is that also?

Steel and iron items are the most important things. the handles for axes, shovels, and pickaxes can be easily replaced, but not the steel.

[Dave Howery]

I'd think potatoes would be our main crop... most calories from smallest acreage. Storing them would be a problem though. We would want wheat eventually, but mainly only small amounts at first, and increase them over time... bread is just so darn handy. Corn? I dunno... does it have any advantages over the other two? As for grass... maybe some kind of fescue, it grows fast... heck, that's what's in a lot of lawn seed anyway. We definitely want grass for our milk cows. Milk + potatoes is dang near a complete diet... just need something with vitamin C in it...

[Othniel]

I still think you're overestimating the complexity of our society and the ease with which we're going to get established. My personal view is that New England township style democracy and an economy will have to wait a few years until we get a food surplus. Until then the most efficient way to organise the group would be like an army with all specialist groups and general labourers taking orders based on decisions that the farming specialists (who are going to be our only hope for long-term survival) make for the good of the crops. We ain't in Kansas anymore Toto.
More like a craft based society. First most important thing is food, next housing, raw material, storage, and distrubition. With that we go into expanding. I have thought of a lay out for the city and how to distribute land. Everything will be organized by occupation at first though.



Also, I have to remind you that Ian's home (i.e. the San Jose area) is a really, really bad place to try to set up the main settlement when much cooler and moister lands are just a week's trek away at most.
Why does this seem familliar oh well...

Yes a change of settlement would prehaps do us better. Where are the best hunting, wodlands, and fertile lands?

[jolo]

I don't see what's all the argument about money is. As Flocc said, this is about survival in the beginning. You don't work you don't eat. with nothing backing the bills and coins you have, then they're useless.

There's not enough of a surplus to sell anything t anyone. What you make is basically consumed by the immediate group, your family and friends. Paying someone in coin is not going to mean anything, if there's nothing o buy.

What you bring with you in the beginning is not enough to become a trader, after all the most you can probably bring is about 500 lbs of equipment and much of that will have to be food, tools, seeds. Everyone else will be in the same situation, they'll be bringing things that probably won't be enough to allow for sole survival. Therefore they'll need help from the other members.

Everything is going to have to be built up from scratch. We'll only have tools and knowledge.

Hey. I'm going to be one of the hunters. :p And if I manage to get a surplus of food or hides, I'm not exchanging it for money. There's always something that's needed. Food, tools, knick knacks.

The "you don't work you don't eat" rule would be the same. Any kind of subsistence farming, "subsistence hunting", and the likes would still be possible, for everyone who doesn't like money.

If I go to a place where I can get things, and I find something I want to have, and it costs a certain amount of money, I will do whatever it takes to get this money and then the product. That's where the value of the money will come from. Once again, all you need to get the system running is a few things needed by most and only available with money, a little bit of money in circulation, and preferably reliable ways to get money, like markets or community bids.

There's also enough surplus - even if everyone would only produce all he needs for the survival of his family, there'll be by-products or easily increased amounts: A hunter will have more animal skins than he can ever use, a logger can handle producing a few more logs, a farmer will usually have a few storage facilities to empty before the new harvest comes, and so on. Even patrols and the likes will regularly find curious, precious, or valuable things on their trips. If trade started just with those things, it would quickly also be done to exchange meat for plant food, vegetables for fruits, work for products, and so on. Everyone would be better off, and all it costs is going to a market once a week or so for a few hours. And nobody is forced to participate - unlike the moneyless model.

Helping others: Who decides who helps whom? Just by friendship? Then we will often see people who could profit from each other not doing that. We'll see a lot of people consuming a lot of time of others for little return but "being a great guy". While much more important things aren't done because in other groups no-one has spare time.

Exchanging any surplus: Where do you think you will get sth.? Among your friends? Every once in a while, but not always. Directly from the specialists? Which of them will just be in demand for the stuff you have to offer? How much will you get if they are just luke warm for it? How long do you have to carry the stuff around until you find someone who gives you a good deal for it? How long would it take before you always go to the same person, someone who does trade? And how likely is it he's got all the things you need in store? How do you make sure you get it later? What happens if later never happens?

Building things from scratch: How much quality is needed? What do we build up first? Who decides that? And so on.

I believe we could start at nearly the same level we left - except all the goods only available with very high specialization or investment. If we make sure the first generation of housing and other buildings is just quickly made simple constructions, if we use trading opportunities with the locals, if we make sure people do more of what's most useful for them and the others, and so on, it would even be fairly easy. Hunting and gathering would only be a pasttime for most hunterers once the fields and herds produce enough food - because they could afford their families much more by doing other things, too. Once food is no problem, lots of people can be used for construction, ammo production, and the likes, so that we live much safer and at a higher comfort. And so on.

If lots of Amerindians participate, the settlement would quickly turn into a big city and we could even start all the technologies we know - would be much easier than our third, fourth, or even later generation offspring having to figure out everything by themselves. And Amerindians wouldn't settle in the cities for barter. Only jobs and money could do that.

[Othniel]

We have to look at important factors. First off is bringing enough food...earlier David said no Elephants, however I say 10 to 20 just for pure carrying capicity may help in the early Ianipolis days and then we can slaughter them for food when it came time in the winter. This by no means is the wild west, though it will be more like it in design that much else. It will be more like the Mayflower in early community standards.

Next up housing. I suggust a tent per two people, and something else for kids.

[Psychomeltdown]

If I go to a place where I can get things, and I find something I want to have, and it costs a certain amount of money, I will do whatever it takes to get this money and then the product. That's where the value of the money will come from. Once again, all you need to get the system running is a few things needed by most and only available with money, a little bit of money in circulation, and preferably reliable ways to get money, like markets or community bids.
But the things that are needed by most will be community items, such as plows and the like. Things that are really needed will be used, not set aside to be purchased.

Along with that, if you’re working continuously, on subsistent farming or hunting, then you’ll have no spare time to make surpluses to go to making money. Afterall everyone else will be working equally as hard to produce what they need to survive.




There's also enough surplus - even if everyone would only produce all he needs for the survival of his family, there'll be by-products or easily increased amounts: A hunter will have more animal skins than he can ever use, a logger can handle producing a few more logs, a farmer will usually have a few storage facilities to empty before the new harvest comes, and so on. Even patrols and the likes will regularly find curious, precious, or valuable things on their trips. If trade started just with those things, it would quickly also be done to exchange meat for plant food, vegetables for fruits, work for products, and so on. Everyone would be better off, and all it costs is going to a market once a week or so for a few hours. And nobody is forced to participate - unlike the moneyless model. But there needs to be a surplus to even begin this. Plus what you’re describing is the barter system. Working for food, trading meat for grain, vise versa. It can be done without money in the first place.

Helping others: Who decides who helps whom? Just by friendship? Then we will often see people who could profit from each other not doing that. We'll see a lot of people consuming a lot of time of others for little return but "being a great guy". While much more important things aren't done because in other groups no-one has spare time.I’m guessing you don’t know much about friendship and helping out others. :) This is not about profit or money making, this is just about plain helping in things that need doing. There are some big jobs that need more than two people to help in and the best way to do that is to get your friends to help. Most individuals would be doing that, than attempting to find someone to pay to do work for them.

Exchanging any surplus: Where do you think you will get sth.? Among your friends? Every once in a while, but not always. Directly from the specialists? Which of them will just be in demand for the stuff you have to offer? How much will you get if they are just luke warm for it? How long do you have to carry the stuff around until you find someone who gives you a good deal for it? How long would it take before you always go to the same person, someone who does trade? And how likely is it he's got all the things you need in store? How do you make sure you get it later? What happens if later never happens?

Building things from scratch: How much quality is needed? What do we build up first? Who decides that? And so on. First things first. Food.

We build the farms
We build storage for the things we’ve brought.
We build pens for the animals.
We build shelter for the animals.
We built shelter for ourselves.

Quality is important for the storage facilities. After all most will contain things that are irreplaceable.

I believe we could start at nearly the same level we left - except all the goods only available with very high specialization or investment. If we make sure the first generation of housing and other buildings is just quickly made simple constructions, if we use trading opportunities with the locals, if we make sure people do more of what's most useful for them and the others, and so on, it would even be fairly easy. Hence the whole spiel about communal living and doing what’s needed first. People can live in crappy shelter for weeks, while the farms and pens get built. The animals and seeds are the most important thing in the beginning.

But starting off at the same level we left, isn’t doable, since there’s no infastructure for us. It’s just what we’re carrying on our backs and what we can make with out hands. A LOT of time will be devoted to just making things we need to survive.


Hunting and gathering would only be a pastime for most hunters once the fields and herds produce enough food - because they could afford their families much more by doing other things, too. Once food is no problem, lots of people can be used for construction, ammo production, and the likes, so that we live much safer and at a higher comfort. And so on. I think I’ve read somewhere that in areas where game is known, hunting only takes about 15 hrs a week to keep a family fed for the week. But then there are a lot of other things that need doing. Specialization will only apply to those things that require a lot of training, but other things like chopping your own wood, making your own personal items, mending clothing, cooking, etc.

If you’ve ever worked on a working ranch or farm, then you’ll know a lot of time is needed to care for the plants and animals you have. There’s always feeding, cleaning, caring, etc. The hours of the day aren’t usally enough to allow for comfort and such.

If lots of Amerindians participate, the settlement would quickly turn into a big city and we could even start all the technologies we know - would be much easier than our third, fourth, or even later generation offspring having to figure out everything by themselves. And Amerindians wouldn't settle in the cities for barter. Only jobs and money could do that. This is a BIG if. Afterall they may want our items, but do they want our lives? Probably not. They’ve been born in a different lifestyle and they’re use to it.

Think of all the native American tribes that had to be pretty much forced into agricultural living.

Actually trade and trade would be the main drawing thing. We have pelts, you have hammers. Gimmie.

[Ward]

Well let me think what I had in my guarden this sumer it was 5 acres we will eat from it for the rest of the year . We grow 4 types of beans , tomatols , 5 types of squarsh , peas , ornions, cabage and corn , melons , cucombers , and herbs . we also have rasbearies and grapes . This is the type of guarden I would have besides putting in other crops .

I would also bring seeds for some fruit trees .

Also some of the Druggies should bring pot seeds we can use it for rope , cloth and paper .

[Psychomeltdown]

It will be more like the Mayflower in early community standards. without all the religious hoopla.

Next up housing. I suggust a tent per two people, and something else for kids.
i suggest a large tarp that can hold ten or more people, mainly because a two man tent will take up a lot of space and weight, when every pound is pretty much needed for other important things, like food.

[Psychomeltdown]

I've been reading some info online:

1. can 1 acre of corn feed a family of four for 10 yrs? or is that just the super hybrid crap that's made in the labs.

2. An acre of potatoes can feed three for a year?

3. An acre of corn pretty much feeds one person for a year.

So what's the mixture of grains, meat, etc in the diet so we can figure out how much to plant...

[Psychomeltdown]

Seeds I Can Bring

Corn
Watermelon
Squash
Honeydew Melon
Cantaloupe
Pumpkin


I’ll be feeding two, me and the woman. Hopefully this can be supplemented with what can be hunted.

1 acre of corn can produce roughly 3000 lbs of edibleness.

From what I’ve been reading, 1 lb of corn is about 400 calories.

3000 calories seem to be needed for hardish work.


Therefore:

1.5 acres of corn
1 acre for other crops/garden
The rest can be supplemented by hunting, if possible.

[Flocculencio]

Hey. I'm going to be one of the hunters. :p

It's the scouts for me :D

A note about the native americans of the region- they were hunter-gatherers even into historical times as no domesticated crops made it across the Rockies or up from Mexico so they probably won't easily adapt to an agricultural lifestyle- however, friendly natives would be excellent assistants and teachers in the hunting camps.

This however brings us to the problem of disease- our common illnesses are going to hit them pretty bad and the survivors are going to be divided into two groups. The first are going to be the survivors who come to us for food and assistance. We should give it to them because they'll make great friends.

However the second group will be hostile- probably made up of the strong young warriors who managed to survive the diseases. They might well hate us for inadvertantly destroying their tribes and it's these (and any other more distant tribes who are also affected) who will start bothering us. Give them say 5 years from the time the disease wave hits and the hills above Berkeley will probably be crawling with disaffected hostiles. This is the time period when communication between Ianopolis and the outer camps will be most critical.

It's only after this initial wave of hostiles is beaten off that it'll be safer for smaller groups to start homesteading (assuming that we've managed to stabilise and start producing surpluses over the seven or so years we'll have been there)

I hate corn but I'll eat the stuff if it's that or starve. What about wheat though? :D

Another point regarding the salt marshes- does anyone know if there are any exposed salt beds in the region? Evaporating seawater to get salt is a slow and labour intensive business but salt is going to be critical since it'll be one of the few methods we'll have for preserving stuff.

[Flocculencio]

i suggest a large tarp that can hold ten or more people, mainly because a two man tent will take up a lot of space and weight, when every pound is pretty much needed for other important things, like food.

That's a good idea- especially since wood will be needed for communal buildings first before anyone can get around to building their own log cabins, especially seeing as we're going to have to haul most of it down from the hills.

[Psychomeltdown]

That's a good idea- especially since wood will be needed for communal buildings first before anyone can get around to building their own log cabins, especially seeing as we're going to have to haul most of it down from the hills.
It would be easier if you and your lancers weren't prancing about on your horses that could be pulling logs. :p


Though living cheek and jowl with other members is going to get a little uncomfortable, especially with all the celeb wives running about. :rolleyes:

[Flocculencio]

It would be easier if you and your lancers weren't prancing about on your horses that could be pulling logs. :p

You'll be glad we are when a raiding party comes gallopping down to help scatter the raiding party that seems to be on the verge of overwhelming the stockade of the hunting settlement :D

Though living cheek and jowl with other members is going to get a little uncomfortable, especially with all the celeb wives running about. :rolleyes:

I'm not bringing a celeb wife. Just a normal person <takes the high moral standpoint> :D

Actually from a practical standpoint- look at how thin most celebs are, not exactly ideal childbirthing material in a hospital-less situation. Ideally you'd want plump girls with wide hips.

[Psychomeltdown]

I'm not bringing a celeb wife. Just a normal person <takes the high moral standpoint> :D

Actually from a practical standpoint- look at how thin most celebs are, not exactly ideal childbirthing material in a hospital-less situation. Ideally you'd want plump girls with wide hips.
Same here.

sigh... Just like the animals, guess we'll all be taking breeders. :rolleyes:



As for raids, i figure they'll be small, ten men at the most, going after the things that are valuable, tools and animals.

each settlement's going to have to have a look out person, arms nearby in case of attack, and some kind of semaphore tower to contact the lancers in case of attack. Lots more work.

though lancers will probably be coming in use later on. figure you guys can pull your weight in the beginning. :D

[Othniel]

When it comes to lands, after some time, I say we divide it into lots and keep it organized from the beginning. Farmers nearest the fertile grounds, woodcutters near the woods, fishers near the sea, and craftsmen towards the center. I also think some of us aren't going to be able to carry food in favour of loading up on things that would go towards shelters, or even prehaps transportation (a more important goal if we want to relocate.) I agree the more people that we can fit under a shelter the better. Stilll the most important buildings will be storage for food, and other practical items. Waterproff containers for books....ect.

Still I think we should communize and cordinate who brings what based on colonial occupation. Cooks bring food, Builders bring tools and housing equipment, Woodcutters bring saws and prehaps pots and pans, Horticulturalists bring seeds, plows, etc. Millitia bring weapons, Fishing bring nets, light boats...


From there we take individuals we need to build stuff, Cartwrights, tailors and weavers (hey we need someone to repair and make clothes), shoemakers and repairers, Distrubtion clerks...

I also think we should have a leading council in the beginning appointed from the various occupations. From there we will work towards free election say in twenty to thirty years.

[Ward]

And Think about this what about the clothing most of those Celeb wifes will want to wear . :D

You would be beter off with the girl from next door . She would at less know how to cook some what .

[Othniel]

I'm not bringing a celeb wife. Just a normal person <takes the high moral standpoint> :D

Actually from a practical standpoint- look at how thin most celebs are, not exactly ideal childbirthing material in a hospital-less situation. Ideally you'd want plump girls with wide hips.
While not taking a celeb I'm favouring a farm girl who is fit as oppossed to large. Early on I think I'll prefer having the extra muscel over being out over being pregant, that can come later. (Seriously less mouths.)

[GBW]

Are we going to bring books and perhaps materials to help develop industry later on? Steam power and such? Would be useful if we could somehow construct a steam-driven barge for lumber, produce, etc.

[Psychomeltdown]

Well there should be a standardized set of items you have to bring, such as tools, knives, etc. Things that you don't wnat to have to ask to borrow from your neighbor.


the rest of the weight you'll be carrying will go toward the whole communal storage pit. along with your animals and food. Once it's there you'll be marked as having brought what and how much and then processed to a work detail, mainly what you choose. :)

[Psychomeltdown]

Are we going to bring books and perhaps materials to help develop industry later on? Steam power and such? Would be useful if we could somehow construct a steam-driven barge for lumber, produce, etc.
books and all that are apart of the stuff you can pack on your back. anything and everything you're and your mate and your animals can carry.

[Othniel]

Are we going to bring books and perhaps materials to help develop industry later on? Steam power and such? Would be useful if we could somehow construct a steam-driven barge for lumber, produce, etc.
Rafts are just as pratical, just harder to steer. Now why it would be useful if we could ISOT back with compenets to make a hydro eletric dam I don't think us or our animals have enough carrying capicity. However books containing useful information such as How to Build types, and indidignoius animals of california would really help out....

Now I figured the population we are sending through time is about 5500. If we treat it like 6000 even in packing we should be able to build up the community. Also assuming we can convince the ASBs to let us control the flow of traffic into the past we could do this rather well.

[Othniel]

Well there should be a standardized set of items you have to bring, such as tools, knives, etc. Things that you don't wnat to have to ask to borrow from your neighbor.


the rest of the weight you'll be carrying will go toward the whole communal storage pit. along with your animals and food. Once it's there you'll be marked as having brought what and how much and then processed to a work detail, mainly what you choose. :)
I'm bringing tools; both small and for different tasks than mechanical. Axes, shovels, saws, etc.

I'm also working on an application form we can use to sort this out. Although I will be quite angry when the toliet paper runs out...

[Ward]

Something to think about is bring Dried foods and rice and maybe some soy .
Also some cheese would be nice . Ask for some rubbermade containers to take the food in they are water proof and the wife still has some she got as shower gifts.

I still wish we could get the ASB to let us have wheelbarrows to carry thing in .

Rember to load youself heavy with iteams .

[Psychomeltdown]

Rafts are just as pratical, just harder to steer. Now why it would be useful if we could ISOT back with compenets to make a hydro eletric dam I don't think us or our animals have enough carrying capicity. However books containing useful information such as How to Build types, and indidignoius animals of california would really help out.... Rules of the iSOTing mainly so that we have to struggle with what we want built. :D

Now I figured the population we are sending through time is about 5500. If we treat it like 6000 even in packing we should be able to build up the community. Also assuming we can convince the ASBs to let us control the flow of traffic into the past we could do this rather well.
I've been mainly figuring by the active member list, mainly cuz it'd suck for those that have signed up and posted only once. not to mention those with double accounts. active members was 452 when I last saw, with wives, possible children/immediate family (meaning your kids, their spouses, their kids, and if you're under 18 your parents and siblings) to be a total of at least 1100.

Plus small size, harder difficulties and problems.

[Psychomeltdown]

Something to think about is bring Dried foods and rice and maybe some soy ..
My mother usually sends down a 25 lb bag of flour every couple of months for me and my siblings. I guess we can load up on those. but dried foods would be best, especially rice, a lot of punch for it's small size.

As for wheelbarrows, maybe you can just strap them to your animal, like the chickens. Basically what you can bring.

[GBW]

not to mention those with double accounts.
Would that mean there would be eight clones of Mike Collins along?!

[Ward]

Would that mean there would be eight clones of Mike Collins along?!




God I hope not .

[Psychomeltdown]

God I hope not .
but at least we'll get someone to dig and cover up the shit pits. :)


I say we keep it at the active members amount, just cuz.



So what animals are needed?

452 large animals
452 smallish animals
whatever other amount of small animals you can strap to yourself or animals.


Horses
Cattle
Donkeys

would probably be the big animals.

[Flocculencio]

While not taking a celeb I'm favouring a farm girl who is fit as oppossed to large. Early on I think I'll prefer having the extra muscel over being out over being pregant, that can come later. (Seriously less mouths.)

Oh fit definitely- by plump I didn't mean fat- just someone with a proper amount of meat on their bones as opposed to your stick-thin celeb/model types. Any average girl would probably be alright.

[Flocculencio]

As for raids, i figure they'll be small, ten men at the most, going after the things that are valuable, tools and animals.

Yeah but you can never tell when some pocket Genghis might manage to unite a bunch of tribes and start a concerted programme of raiding building up the pressure.

each settlement's going to have to have a look out person, arms nearby in case of attack, and some kind of semaphore tower to contact the lancers in case of attack. Lots more work.

Semaphore is actually a really good idea- hadn't thought about that.

though lancers will probably be coming in use later on. figure you guys can pull your weight in the beginning. :D

Yeah of course- everyone's going to have to pull their weight :D

[Othniel]

Cattle is going to be the most important, particularly Oxen or those with higher lift capicities or better meats, or easier milk. Besides I wanted to haul a bunch of the zero posters along...

[GBW]

What's the plan for initial food supplies, anyway? Do each of us bring things like MREs, non-perishable foods, etc., for communal storage?

[Flocculencio]

When it comes to lands, after some time, I say we divide it into lots and keep it organized from the beginning. Farmers nearest the fertile grounds, woodcutters near the woods, fishers near the sea, and craftsmen towards the center. I also think some of us aren't going to be able to carry food in favour of loading up on things that would go towards shelters, or even prehaps transportation (a more important goal if we want to relocate.) I agree the more people that we can fit under a shelter the better. Stilll the most important buildings will be storage for food, and other practical items. Waterproff containers for books....ect.

Still I think we should communize and cordinate who brings what based on colonial occupation. Cooks bring food, Builders bring tools and housing equipment, Woodcutters bring saws and prehaps pots and pans, Horticulturalists bring seeds, plows, etc. Millitia bring weapons, Fishing bring nets, light boats...


From there we take individuals we need to build stuff, Cartwrights, tailors and weavers (hey we need someone to repair and make clothes), shoemakers and repairers, Distrubtion clerks...

I also think we should have a leading council in the beginning appointed from the various occupations. From there we will work towards free election say in twenty to thirty years.


Yep that sounds about right- however coordinating stuff might be pretty hard going by the rules set out in the original post. Plus I doubt we have any cartwrights and weavers- however since the original post states that the ASBs will give us whatever items we ask for within the limits of the original post we could bring along components for looms and carts and books on how to manufacture them. I'm pretty sure some of our people who are amateur carpenters would be able to get the hang of it.

[Psychomeltdown]

Okay,

What are the most important buildings?

Storage pits, possibly like root cellars to keep the food coolish.
Storage room, to hold excess tools and equipment until they're needed.
Armory, to hold the bags of gunpowder and extra shot.
Animal pens, keep the precious furries alive.
Stockade, to keep any hostiles out and for defense.

Along with homes
Semaphore towers/look out towers
Possible library


I suggest putting the animal pens at the center of the stockade, mainly to protect them from thief and attack. Then the storage pits/storage rooms. homes and the like can surround them.

[Psychomeltdown]

What's the plan for initial food supplies, anyway? Do each of us bring things like MREs, non-perishable foods, etc., for communal storage?
Initial food supplies will pretty much be what we can bring ourselves and what we can hunt.

This one will be a difficult thing, since these items will be taking up a lot of space and weight...

[Ward]

but at least we'll get someone to dig and cover up the shit pits. :)


I say we keep it at the active members amount, just cuz.



So what animals are needed?

452 large animals
452 smallish animals
whatever other amount of small animals you can strap to yourself or animals.


Horses
Cattle
Donkeys

would probably be the big animals.




Well if we say there are 452 of us and we add wifes thats 904 but let fighre
each active member at 2.50 people that would give us 1130 people who are coming .

lets take 100 milk cows with 6 bulls , 40x beef cows with 3 Bulls ,
20 Donkeys female and 3 males , 200 Mares and 20 stalions . and make the rest oxen .

As for small Animals
how about 150 goats , 100 sheep , 50 pigs , 90 dogs and 62 cats .

[Flocculencio]

As for small Animals
how about 150 goats , 100 sheep , 50 pigs , 90 dogs and 62 cats .

Sounds good but frankly won't cats be a waste of space? They're not nearly as useful as dogs- if we brought along 62 small dogs like Corgis (good for herding cattle) or Beagles (good for tracking prey) these could perform the same vermin-control duties as cats as well as their primary tasks.

[Othniel]

Yep that sounds about right- however coordinating stuff might be pretty hard going by the rules set out in the original post. Plus I doubt we have any cartwrights and weavers- however since the original post states that the ASBs will give us whatever items we ask for within the limits of the original post we could bring along components for looms and carts and books on how to manufacture them. I'm pretty sure some of our people who are amateur carpenters would be able to get the hang of it.
Lets just postulate if we could cordinate before doing this though... As this thread looks. Outside of the area of making the wagons carts and other makeshift sleds I do know how to fix stuff like that..paths, trenchs, trees, other stuff, with a thought and that would be what I'd focus on, however without cordination you see me automatically packing for a long long camping trip.

[Psychomeltdown]

Well if we say there are 452 of us and we add wifes thats 904 but let fighre each active member at 2.50 people that would give us 1130 people who are coming .

lets take 100 milk cows with 6 bulls , 40x beef cows with 3 Bulls ,
20 Donkeys female and 3 males , 200 Mares and 20 stalions . and make the rest oxen .

As for small Animals
how about 150 goats , 100 sheep , 50 pigs , 90 dogs and 62 cats .
Pretty much what I was thinking. but i think we can cut back on the dogs and cats, mainly cuz they breed fast and we'll need more other animals.

Chickens
ducks
turkeys


what about 45 dogs and 25 cats. mainly since the dogs will be for guarding and herding, the cats for keeping rodents out of the storage.

[Psychomeltdown]

Lets just postulate if we could cordinate before doing this though... As this thread looks. Outside of the area of making the wagons carts and other makeshift sleds I do know how to fix stuff like that..paths, trenchs, trees, other stuff, with a thought and that would be what I'd focus on, however without cordination you see me automatically packing for a long long camping trip.
well Dave said we could talk to one another before we upped and went. So figure on us talking to one another and figuring out what needs to be brought for the trip.

[Ward]

Pretty much what I was thinking. but i think we can cut back on the dogs and cats, mainly cuz they breed fast and we'll need more other animals.

Chickens
ducks
turkeys


what about 45 dogs and 25 cats. mainly since the dogs will be for guarding and herding, the cats for keeping rodents out of the storage.





I with you on that but so many people were talking about bring ther cats and dogs .

[Flocculencio]

Initial food supplies will pretty much be what we can bring ourselves and what we can hunt.

This one will be a difficult thing, since these items will be taking up a lot of space and weight...

Well MRE's keep for a helluva long time and they're not that bulky (don't know what your US MRE's are like but in Singapore they're just small pouches filled with rice and suspicious meat chunks :)). If we limit ourselves and get by on one a day we should be able to bring down some game to supplement them before we run out.

Of course that might be playing it a bit too risky. Since bears lived in the Berkeley Hills I assume there will be game animals in the North Bay but it's anyone's guess what we'll find at Ian's Place down in San Jose when we start. Maybe deer? If we head along the coastline we can catch fish but that'll make our progress North even slower.

[Flocculencio]

Chickens
ducks
turkeys

Chickens would be a great idea but wouldn't ducks be a waste of resources? They need more specialised habitats than chickens don't they? Plus there will be a lot of waterfowl in the Bay anyway.

As for turkeys- do they lay eggs regularly like chickens do? If not we might cut them out and focus on chickens since they're more useful.

[GBW]

Link for some information on American MREs: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mre.htm

[Psychomeltdown]

I with you on that but so many people were talking about bring ther cats and dogs .
Then we slap some sense into them. :D


Plus we'll probably need to bring some bees along, for honey and the wax.


Animals
Horse
Cattle
Donkey
Oxen
Sheep
Goats
pigs
dogs
cats
chickens
Honey bees


guess we can cut out the ducks and turkeys. We can probably find wild types of them abouts.

[GBW]

We can talk to Othniel about useful insects; one of his hobbies I think. And we have to make sure Straha doesn't 'pull a Walker'.

[Othniel]

well Dave said we could talk to one another before we upped and went. So figure on us talking to one another and figuring out what needs to be brought for the trip.
Yep, thats what I was basing my thoughts on.. Advanced cordination. We want to keep order up the best we can as such I've been working on the grid system and trying to find a map of the topography of the region. After that I'll make an application form fitting people to different areas, giving them a decent sized land to shelter in..

[Psychomeltdown]

. And we have to make sure Straha doesn't 'pull a Walker'.
He can try. but who's going to follow him?? Plus there's no one out there beyond nomadic bands and primitive cultures in the rest of the world.


Oth: the USGS usually has some topographic maps, not sure if they have it on the SFB area though.

[Flocculencio]

Link for some information on American MREs: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mre.htm

They actually look a lot tastier than ours. Though I'm not sure how well stuff like chocolate brownies and potato chips would keep

Singapore's MREs are based on the same pattern but adapted to local tastes. Which means lots of rice. :p However they did include dry biscuits which came in two flavours- cheese AKA sawdust and chocolate- always a favourite because if you tore open one end of the packet of biscuits, poured in a bit of water and waited for a bit for them to get soggy you could pretend you were eating brownies :D I hated the rice packs so those biscuits kept me going :D

[Othniel]

We can talk to Othniel about useful insects; one of his hobbies I think. And we have to make sure Straha doesn't 'pull a Walker'.
Aye I have the stomach to find which insects would be best for the area, however I think California has enough already... Pollinators should be natural in that part, however if you wish me to find nuetritonal values....

[Flocculencio]

He can try. but who's going to follow him?? Plus there's no one out there beyond nomadic bands and primitive cultures in the rest of the world.

Also, to my knowledge, Straha, unlike Walker, doesn't actually have any military training of any kind with which to lead an army/insurgency :D

[Flocculencio]

Aye I have the stomach to find which insects would be best for the area, however I think California has enough already... Pollinators should be natural in that part, however if you wish me to find nuetritonal values....

That's another pretty good idea- does California get those locust swarms like in the Midwest? Those things are pure protein! :D

[Psychomeltdown]

That's another pretty good idea- does California get those locust swarms like in the Midwest? Those things are pure protein!My grandma use to feed us locust when we were young, they taste a bit nutty. Though you have to pull of the wings and legs, they tend to tickle.
:rolleyes:

[Psychomeltdown]

Here's a precipitation map for cali, through 1961 - 1990, not sure how much of a use it'll be. Times change and all that...

http://www.ocs.orst.edu/pub/maps/Precipitation/Total/States/CA/ca.gif

[Othniel]

That's another pretty good idea- does California get those locust swarms like in the Midwest? Those things are pure protein! :D
No, but anything with wings is likely going to be more disgusting than the grubs you can find under a log. I however think if we get to the point where we have to be snacking on bugs that it would be better to have spontantiously combusted. Look for natural roots, most of them are eatible no matter how watery.

[Othniel]

Here's a precipitation map for cali, through 1961 - 1990, not sure how much of a use it'll be. Times change and all that...

Ah, anouther idea, how about we get one of you colledge types who have had a class in metrology to look at the recorded weather for that area. You can then use that to detrimine an average weather pattern as well as coupling that with the best time to plant certain crops in those seasons. Best to be as specific as possible in knowing how the land treats us...

[Psychomeltdown]

here's a sight that has close up maps of the region, pretty much all of California.

it's a bit of a hassle, but i guess you could give it a whirl...

Clicky Clickyl (http://www.topowest.com/California/framestate.html)

[Flocculencio]

Here's a precipitation map for cali, through 1961 - 1990, not sure how much of a use it'll be. Times change and all that...


That's pretty cool- you can see just how precipitation changes just from the South Bay to the North- an extra ten inches of rain a year! Good for the crops methinks! :D

[Othniel]

here's a sight that has close up maps of the region, pretty much all of California.

it's a bit of a hassle, but i guess you could give it a whirl...

Clicky Clickyl (http://www.topowest.com/California/framestate.html)
Here is wear we'd start;

http://www.topowest.com/California/37121/o37121c5.25.png
and to the west of that...
http://www.topowest.com/California/37122/o37122d2.25.png

[Flocculencio]

Jolly good- just wish the maps on that site were a bit clearer :)

[GBW]

We have people with medical skills, but what are our prospects for future medical technology? What will we need to bring to produce our own medical supplies? I believe we'd need certain plants for morphine and such...

[Othniel]

We have people with medical skills, but what are our prospects for future medical technology? What will we need to bring to produce our own medical supplies? I believe we'd need certain plants for morphine and such...
We probably will need to, however does willow grow naturally in California? I hear its bark is what they orginally made asprin from.. Natural medicine is something we may have to go back to, either that or whiskey...

[Matt]

without all the religious hoopla.


i suggest a large tarp that can hold ten or more people, mainly because a two man tent will take up a lot of space and weight, when every pound is pretty much needed for other important things, like food.


A few GP tents. The large green military kind. The modular ones that are newer would be better. If we we can bend the rules by attaching a cart to the horse, then several can be brought in one cart... one top of everything else.

As for smaller tents, I own a commercial 7 person/1 dog tent. It weighs no more then 25 pounds.

[Matt]

Well there should be a standardized set of items you have to bring, such as tools, knives, etc. Things that you don't wnat to have to ask to borrow from your neighbor.


I'll work on that tomorrow.

[DarkSlavik]

We have people with medical skills, but what are our prospects for future medical technology? What will we need to bring to produce our own medical supplies? I believe we'd need certain plants for morphine and such...

well basic surgical tools will need to be brought with us, we will need to be able to produce something such as alchoal to clean our tools, and bring some special plants back with us to use as a sentitive.

[Othniel]

I'm definately thinking about making an online game from this....

Just need to finsh the application, showing skill, family size, stuff brought with you, skills, preisot occupation and post ISOT Occupation(defined as craft). I'll use Oregon trail, Ceaser III, and serval other things as guide.

[Matt]

Sounds good but frankly won't cats be a waste of space? They're not nearly as useful as dogs- if we brought along 62 small dogs like Corgis (good for herding cattle) or Beagles (good for tracking prey) these could perform the same vermin-control duties as cats as well as their primary tasks.


I wanted to point this out before. Without singing the praises of my favorite breed, a corgi can perform most the task you can expect of a GSD, plus be a ratter. All that with a smaller energy requirement. A few larger dogs might be a good idea, but smaller dogs can before the ratter/general utility role.

[Psychomeltdown]

I'm definately thinking about making an online game from this....

Just need to finsh the application, showing skill, family size, stuff brought with you, skills, preisot occupation and post ISOT Occupation(defined as craft). I'll use Oregon trail, Ceaser III, and serval other things as guide.
Ward approached me with the idea of making this into an online game. maybe you can talk with him and work things out. I'm not really knowledgeable in the whole online gaming things. :o I wanted to point this out before. Without singing the praises of my favorite breed, a corgi can perform most the task you can expect of a GSD, plus be a ratter. All that with a smaller energy requirement. A few larger dogs might be a good idea, but smaller dogs can before the ratter/general utility role.Some of us just like cats, it seems. :D Though good herding and guard dogs are always needed. Seems Corgi can be a choice breed. But they just look so small and too cute.

[Flocculencio]

Seems Corgi can be a choice breed. But they just look so small and too cute.

They're tough little buggers- bred to herd cattle. Plus if you piss the Queen off she will send a pack of them to your house to eat you. They can skeletonise a cow in two minutes flat.

[Psychomeltdown]

well basic surgical tools will need to be brought with us, we will need to be able to produce something such as alchoal to clean our tools, and bring some special plants back with us to use as a sentitive.
It would seem strong spirits would be the way to go. I'm sure Ward knows who to cook up some distilled liquor. Ward also said we'll probably need some cannabis, for it's medical effects, of course. ;)

[Ward]

It would seem strong spirits would be the way to go. I'm sure Ward knows who to cook up some distilled liquor. Ward also said we'll probably need some cannabis, for it's medical effects, of course. ;)



No for its ability to be made into rope , cloth , and paper .

[Psychomeltdown]

They can skeletonise a cow in two minutes flat.
Er... is this a plus? :D




Grr... Fear Me!
http://www.puppydogweb.com/breeders/pic_images/pembroke_dhawkinsmn.jpg

[Matt]

They're tough little buggers- bred to herd cattle. Plus if you piss the Queen off she will send a pack of them to your house to eat you. They can skeletonise a cow in two minutes flat.


My corgi Roxie has done it numerious times.

[Flocculencio]

Yeah plus they can call upon an entire rugby side to do their bidding

http://www.rugbyheaven.smh.com.au/rwc2003/graphics/popout_queen.jpg

[Psychomeltdown]

No for its ability to be made into rope , cloth , and paper .
Yep, gotcha. ;)


though we'll also need to make up a list of the tools needed to harvest crops.

Plows, shovels, hoes, rakes, scythes/sickles?

what else?

[Flocculencio]

Hammers, saws, manual drills, planes

[Matt]

how about this?

We talk the ASB into palletizing a certain amount of stuff? All that we couldn't carry, and would need the pack animals for. There would still be a weight cap, but we can bring bulkier items this way.

[Matt]

Hammers, saws, manual drills, planes

nails... lots and lots of nails. Durable nails that can be reused it the structure needs to be torn down.

Black smithing tools... heavy hammers, clamps, aprons, an anvil(somehow)

[Psychomeltdown]

how about this?

We talk the ASB into palletizing a certain amount of stuff? All that we couldn't carry, and would need the pack animals for. There would still be a weight cap, but we can bring bulkier items this way.
now that would be cheating... :D


Farming stuff:

Plows
Hoes - possibly make on our own
Shovels
Pickaxes - dual uses
Axes - dual uses
Scythe/Sickle
Flail (for grain)
Harrow - possibly make on our own...
Rakes - Maybe we can make on our own

Plus we'll probably need to build a smallish mil for the wheat and corn. That means finding rocks, mainly granite, that can be used as the mill stones. Unless one is willing to grind by hand...