Lt. George W. Bush: Prisoner of war.

[SergeantHeretic]

Imagine this: In 1970, the Tezas Air National Guard unit that George W. Bush served in is rotated to South VIetnam.

George W. Bush, then a Lieutenent in his air wing flies several sorties and makes a decent share of kills. Then he is shot down and captured. The North Vietnamese hold him as a prisoner of War until he is repatriated in 1973.

When he comes home, Lt. Bush is a different man. He is somber, and serious. Barbara Bush laments that she no longer knows her son. George H.W. Bush is angered by his son's apparent dissaffection with "Traditional values".

George hits the road and spends several years metting people and seeing the United States as it is. When he returns, George enters college. Eventually gaining a Master's certificate in Political science with a minor in AMerican history.

Fast forward to George as the Governor of Texas. George is a very liberatarian Governor, having seen the fruitlessness of doctrinal overcontrols in North Vietnam. Many in the party call him "RINO".

Republican In Name Only.

Despite this, in 2001, He is inaugurated as America's 43rd President.

How do you feel this much different and more hardened man will deal with the Republic, and with the threat of Bin Laden and the Taliban?

[MacCaulay]

George W. Bush, then a Lieutenent in his air wing flies several sorties and makes enough kills to qualify as an ace. Then he is shot down and captured. The North Vietnamese hold him as a prisoner of War until he is repatriated in 1973.


First off: this is a great idea. Honestly. This is the kind of thing I could write a fucking story about.

But let's just leave out the whole "ace" thing.

I'm saying that as an "editor". There was ONE ace in the entire Vietnam war.

After WWII and Korea, 2 kills was enough to make someone amazing. Hell, there's only been one pilot in the post-Vietnam era who's made more than one kill.

Just saying. Apart fram that, man, I'm going to honestly think about this.

[SergeantHeretic]

First off: this is a great idea. Honestly. This is the kind of thing I could write a fucking story about.

But let's just leave out the whole "ace" thing.

I'm saying that as an "editor". There was ONE ace in the entire Vietnam war.

After WWII and Korea, 2 kills was enough to make someone amazing. Hell, there's only been one pilot in the post-Vietnam era who's made more than one kill.

Just saying. Apart fram that, man, I'm going to honestly think about this.

FGair enough, DOne

[Imperator Novae Zealandae]

Sounds interesting. Will look forward to it.

[Meadow]

This would indeed be a fascinating TL. A Bush who, by the sounds of it, was a bit more of a McCain.

[Peelitebkearns]

Imagine this: In 1970, the Tezas Air National Guard unit that George W. Bush served in is rotated to South VIetnam.

George W. Bush, then a Lieutenent in his air wing flies several sorties and makes a decent share of kills. Then he is shot down and captured. The North Vietnamese hold him as a prisoner of War until he is repatriated in 1973.

When he comes home, Lt. Bush is a different man. He is somber, and serious. Barbara Bush laments that she no longer knows her son. George H.W. Bush is angered by his son's apparent dissaffection with "Traditional values".

George hits the road and spends several years metting people and seeing the United States as it is. When he returns, George enters college. Eventually gaining a Master's certificate in Political science with a minor in AMerican history.

Fast forward to George as the Governor of Texas. George is a very liberatarian Governor, having seen the fruitlessness of doctrinal overcontrols in North Vietnam. Many in the party call him "RINO".

Republican In Name Only.

Despite this, in 2001, He is inaugurated as America's 43rd President.

How do you feel this much different and more hardened man will deal with the Republic, and with the threat of Bin Laden and the Taliban?

This is an interesting idea. You might have major butterflies before Jan 2001, though. For example, I wonder how his son being captured will affect George Bush Seniour, particularly when it comes to his political career?

[Plumber]

This is an interesting idea. You might have major butterflies before Jan 2001, though. For example, I wonder how his son being captured will affect George Bush Seniour, particularly when it comes to his political career?
Yes, he could have replaced Agnew on the ticket in '72 for all we know.

[LtNOWIS]

I don't think any Guard or Reserve units were sent to Vietnam, which is why they were so appealing to wealthy, well connected young men like Bush.

Bush would had to have wanted to do a tour and transferred to another unit, most likely.

[Plumber]

I don't think any Guard or Reserve units were sent to Vietnam, which is why they were so appealing to wealthy, well connected young men like Bush.

Bush would had to have wanted to do a tour and transferred to another unit, most likely.
This is also true.

[Brasidas]

I don't think any Guard or Reserve units were sent to Vietnam, which is why they were so appealing to wealthy, well connected young men like Bush.

Bush would had to have wanted to do a tour and transferred to another unit, most likely.

There were several national guard units sent to Vietnam.

http://delawarenationalguard.com/aboutus/history/vietnam/
http://kynghistory.ky.gov/history/4qtr/vietnam.htm
http://www.ng.mil/resources/galleries/heritage/indianarangers.html
http://www.kansastag.gov/NGUARD.asp?PageID=356

The units were under the control of state governors who could choose whether or not to release them for use by the federal government. Among those who did not release their units was Texas, under John Connally during the time that Bush served.

You could have a PoD of the "Total Force Policy", removing this governor's discretion, being implemented before the end of the war.

Another PoD might be embarrassment of the governor. Connally's son served in the same Texas Air National Guard unit as Bush.

[Duke 4]

Interesting. But Bush had the option of combat. Any Officer in the military can request a combat tour. If JFK can bribe and use his Dads influence to first get into the military and then get combat Bush could have too. So you might need to change things about him, keep his military unit from being an unit that was safe for people like the Bushes of the world. But lets say all this happens. Well a RHINO in modern America cannot get the the GOP nomination for President. Junior saw how the Super right wing tuned on his Dad. He did not make that same error. By reading what his party really was and is made him a two term American President. That is a success in the political world , non standing his failure in the governing world.

[glenn67]

Will this version of Dubya still buy the Texas Rangers baseball team? That is how he got elected Governor of Texas IOTL.

[MerryPrankster]

It's been awhile, but I do remember reading somewhere Bush had inquired about serving in Vietnam. Maybe he felt bad about getting into the Guard when others could not or something.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml

Here's the link. Apparently Bush had inquired about serving in the Palace Alert program, but was told he didn't have enough flight time. Plus the program had stopped accepting applicants.

POD is that the program lasts longer?

[JN1]

I don't think any Guard or Reserve units were sent to Vietnam, which is why they were so appealing to wealthy, well connected young men like Bush.

Knowing the safety record of the F-102 he probably would have been safer flying over Vietnam. ;)

[SergeantHeretic]

All of Y'all bring up interesting points and problems particularly vis a vie butterflies. (Good term, BTW, I get it, "Butterfly effect, change a little thing, end up with massive changes.)

I just wondered what kind of a President George W. Bush would have made if he had served combat and been a Prisoner of War. Chiefly, would he have been as cavalier as he was vis a vie the commitment of American troops to foreign wars. I mean, I get that we need(ed) to fight the Taliban and it's good that Iraq worked out in the end, but if we had NOT deposed Hussein, would Iran be doing all that loud talking about getting a Nuclear device. I think it's pretty clear at this point that Iran was afraid of Hussein, not the U.S. and WE deposed Hussein. (Nice job breaking it, Hero.)

[Osakadave]

Questions:
How would this effect Papa Bush's becoming DCI?
I assume this butterflys Bush's congressional race against Kent Hance, so what are the effects?

[SergeantHeretic]

Questions:
How would this effect Papa Bush's becoming DCI?
I assume this butterflys Bush's congressional race against Kent Hance, so what are the effects?

I have no idea, I was just blue skying and now it turns out I am just talking out of my (Well shaped) butt. Sorry.

[LegionoftheUnitedStates]

Imagine this: In 1970, the Tezas Air National Guard unit that George W. Bush served in is rotated to South VIetnam.

George W. Bush, then a Lieutenent in his air wing flies several sorties and makes a decent share of kills. Then he is shot down and captured. The North Vietnamese hold him as a prisoner of War until he is repatriated in 1973.

When he comes home, Lt. Bush is a different man. He is somber, and serious. Barbara Bush laments that she no longer knows her son. George H.W. Bush is angered by his son's apparent dissaffection with "Traditional values".

George hits the road and spends several years metting people and seeing the United States as it is. When he returns, George enters college. Eventually gaining a Master's certificate in Political science with a minor in AMerican history.

Fast forward to George as the Governor of Texas. George is a very liberatarian Governor, having seen the fruitlessness of doctrinal overcontrols in North Vietnam. Many in the party call him "RINO".

Republican In Name Only.

Despite this, in 2001, He is inaugurated as America's 43rd President.

How do you feel this much different and more hardened man will deal with the Republic, and with the threat of Bin Laden and the Taliban?


You have to get him into a different Air National Guard Unit, have his existing unit equipped with different aircraft before he joins it, or have him join the regular Air Force. His ANG unit was an F-102 unit. There is no need for a nuclear bomber interceptor in Vietnam. They tried using them for several years there, but the aircraft was inadequate for the role. They were pulled out by 1968. He would have to be trained on a different aircraft in order to deploy to Vietnam.

[SergeantHeretic]

You have to get him into a different Air National Guard Unit, have his existing unit equipped with different aircraft before he joins it, or have him join the regular Air Force. His ANG unit was an F-102 unit. There is no need for a nuclear bomber interceptor in Vietnam. They tried using them for several years there, but the aircraft was inadequate for the role. They were pulled out by 1968. He would have to be trained on a different aircraft in order to deploy to Vietnam.

O.K., so I just have to get him into a unit of either F-4's or F-105's.

[Osakadave]

I have no idea, I was just blue skying and now it turns out I am just talking out of my (Well shaped) butt. Sorry.

No sorries needed - you actually have a really good counterfactual question, especially if we indeed end up w/ a this Dubya as president in a post-9/11 world as opposed to OTL's deserter-in-chief and his possie of chicken-hawks.

[arrowiv]

Another interesting point. What if Dick Cheney did indeed serve in Nam instead of having several draft deferments? How would this affect and change him as a human being and politician?

[SergeantHeretic]

No sorries needed - you actually have a really good counterfactual question, especially if we indeed end up w/ a this Dubya as president in a post-9/11 world as opposed to OTL's deserter-in-chief and his possie of chicken-hawks.

It would be interesting would it not?

[SergeantHeretic]

Another interesting point. What if Dick Cheney did indeed serve in Nam instead of having several draft deferments? How would this affect and change him as a human being and politician?

Cheny is in his seventies, isn't he? Too old for Nam, May Korea or WWII. If he dodged his way out of WWII then that REALLY makes him a contempible louse.

[Plumber]

Cheny is in his seventies, isn't he? Too old for Nam, May Korea or WWII. If he dodged his way out of WWII then that REALLY makes him a contempible louse.
He dodged Vietnam when he was 28.

[SergeantHeretic]

He dodged Vietnam when he was 28.
Pussy. I cannot believe that as a woman who served, I am more of a man than DIck Cheney.

[oldironside]

Not only did Cheney not serve, he received no fewer than five deferments to being drafted.

"I had other priorities in the 60s to military service ."

[SergeantHeretic]

Not only did Cheney not serve, he received no fewer than five deferments to being drafted.

"I had other priorities in the 60s to military service ."

Military service is not about one's OWN priorities, it's about putting other people and one's nation AHEAD of one's own personal desires.

Anyone who doesn't understand that has no business in National leadership.

[Hyperion]

But let's just leave out the whole "ace" thing.

I'm saying that as an "editor". There was ONE ace in the entire Vietnam war.

I agree, don't make him an Ace.

That being said, your ability to research information isn't all that great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

In Vietnam, two pilots made Ace, along with three Weapon Systems Officers, ie backseat drivers.

I hope you where not counting the NVA pilots that made Ace status.

[SergeantHeretic]

I agree, don't make him an Ace.

That being said, your ability to research information isn't all that great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

In Vietnam, two pilots made Ace, along with three Weapon Systems Officers, ie backseat drivers.

I hope you where not counting the NVA pilots that made Ace status.
I already took out the ace bit.

[Hyperion]

I already took out the ace bit.

No biggie. I don't mind that one way or the other, but while not many airmen did make Ace during the war, a lot more than ONE pilot or backseat pilot earned that distinction.

If Bush is trained to fly the F-4, especially if he qualifies as a WSO of which three made Ace, though flying with different pilots, he might not make Ace status, but the idea of having three or even four kills to his credit wouldn't be impossible. Difficult yes, impossible no.

[SergeantHeretic]

No biggie. I don't mind that one way or the other, but while not many airmen did make Ace during the war, a lot more than ONE pilot or backseat pilot earned that distinction.

If Bush is trained to fly the F-4, especially if he qualifies as a WSO of which three made Ace, though flying with different pilots, he might not make Ace status, but the idea of having three or even four kills to his credit wouldn't be impossible. Difficult yes, impossible no.
I justy need him to get over there, feel some heat, see some shit, and spend two or three years i nthe Hanoi Hilton.

[Tim Thomason]

I agree, don't make him an Ace.

That being said, your ability to research information isn't all that great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

In Vietnam, two pilots made Ace, along with three Weapon Systems Officers, ie backseat drivers.

I hope you where not counting the NVA pilots that made Ace status.

Yeah, I think MacCauley probably forgot about Steve Ritchie and was merely talking about Duke Cunningham.

Of course, Cunningham, the "ace of aces" during the Vietnam War, later joined Congress and resigned amidst scandal, so that proves that even decorated war heroes (the opposite of Dick Cheney) can still become less-than-stellar politicians.

[SergeantHeretic]

Yeah, I think MacCauley probably forgot about Steve Ritchie and was merely talking about Duke Cunningham.

Of course, Cunningham, the "ace of aces" during the Vietnam War, later joined Congress and resigned amidst scandal, so that proves that even decorated war heroes (the opposite of Dick Cheney) can still become less-than-stellar politicians.

Guys, what I need is a war hardened seasoned battle tested W. who KNOWS what war is really like to be in the white house on 9-11.

[Fellatio Nelson]

After WWII and Korea, 2 kills was enough to make someone amazing. Hell, there's only been one pilot in the post-Vietnam era who's made more than one kill.




Is that "Sharky" Ward, during the Falklands Conflict? Otherwise I can't think of the person.

[SergeantHeretic]

Guys, what I need is a war hardened seasoned battle tested W. who KNOWS what war is really like to be in the white house on 9-11.
I don't see my War vet POW vet Bush putting up with Chickenhawk Cheney for very long.

[Paul V McNutt]

War hero rather than draft dodger makes his political career easier.

[Mike Stearns]

Guys, what I need is a war hardened seasoned battle tested W. who KNOWS what war is really like to be in the white house on 9-11.

Then make him a Marine.

[SergeantHeretic]

War hero rather than draft dodger makes his political career easier.

Indeed, but it does increase the chances that the chickenhawks will go after him and keep him from spoiling their reindeer games.

They tend to do that.

[SergeantHeretic]

Then make him a Marine.
Now THERE is an idea, switch me if it's not.

SO, what would make W. join the Corps?

[MacCaulay]

I don't think any Guard or Reserve units were sent to Vietnam, which is why they were so appealing to wealthy, well connected young men like Bush.

Bush would had to have wanted to do a tour and transferred to another unit, most likely.

Apparently, the 120th Tactical Fighter Wing of the Colorado National Guard served, as well as three other complete wings and most of another.

They were also flying F-100 Super Sabres, like Bush did.

[SergeantHeretic]

Apparently, the 120th Tactical Fighter Wing of the Colorado National Guard served, as well as three other complete wings and most of another.

They were also flying F-100 Super Sabres, like Bush did.
Yeah, that's cool, but now I have it in my head to trty and make Dubya a Marine in my TL.

[Mike Stearns]

Indeed, but it does increase the chances that the chickenhawks will go after him and keep him from spoiling their reindeer games.

They tend to do that.

Maybe, but it would be alot harder for them to do that Bush joined the Marines.

[SergeantHeretic]

Maybe, but it would be alot harder for them to do that Bush joined the Marines.

I just cannot get "Lance Corporal George W. BUsh out of my head."

A ground poundin' mud crunchin' Gyrene.

[Hyperion]

Apparently, the 120th Tactical Fighter Wing of the Colorado National Guard served, as well as three other complete wings and most of another.

They were also flying F-100 Super Sabres, like Bush did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush#Texas_Air_National_Guard

Do you do any research at all? Bush never flew the Super Sabres.

He flew the F-102 Convair.

Seriously, are you trolling?

[SergeantHeretic]

Picture this, George is a young man maybe 18 and he listens to his father telling him how his life is going to be. Daddy has Georgie's life all figured out and Georgie just has something go "Click" in his brain. Suddenly living his life by the numbers like Daddy's good little boy is just about the scariest thing he can imagine.

He and his father have a massive fight and George peels out of the driveway in a mad rush.

He thinks of joining the Air Force, or the Army, or the Navy, but then realises his father could null that easy.

He then hits on the one service that would never allow george to break his contract.

The United States Marine Corps.

Before Daddums can do or say much of anything, George is on his way to Paris Island marine recruit depot.

What do you think?

[MacCaulay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush#Texas_Air_National_Guard

Do you do any research at all? Bush never flew the Super Sabres.

He flew the F-102 Convair.

Seriously, are you trolling?


LOL


Man, I've been up for ten minutes. Give me a break! :D

[SergeantHeretic]

Picture this, George is a young man maybe 18 and he listens to his father telling him how his life is going to be. Daddy has Georgie's life all figured out and Georgie just has something go "Click" in his brain. Suddenly living his life by the numbers like Daddy's good little boy is just about the scariest thing he can imagine.

He and his father have a massive fight and George peels out of the driveway in a mad rush.

He thinks of joining the Air Force, or the Army, or the Navy, but then realises his father could null that easy.

He then hits on the one service that would never allow george to break his contract.

The United States Marine Corps.

Before Daddums can do or say much of anything, George is on his way to Paris Island marine recruit depot.

What do you think?

Geoge nearly doesn't make it, but when he hits his hump what carries him over it, is that he would rather DIE literaly frikken DIE in training than have to slink home to Daddy and listen to years of "I told you so".

Private George W. Bush graduates and is sent to a Marine Rifle Company in SE Asia.

[LegionoftheUnitedStates]

Cheny is in his seventies, isn't he? Too old for Nam, May Korea or WWII. If he dodged his way out of WWII then that REALLY makes him a contempible louse.

Cheney turned 18 on January 30th, 1959. The first combat units were not deployed to South Vietnam until 1965. Regardless of what you think about deferments, and I think it is a bad policy, you can't dodge a war that hasn't occurred yet.

[Osakadave]

Picture this, George is a young man maybe 18 and he listens to his father telling him how his life is going to be. Daddy has Georgie's life all figured out and Georgie just has something go "Click" in his brain. Suddenly living his life by the numbers like Daddy's good little boy is just about the scariest thing he can imagine.

He and his father have a massive fight and George peels out of the driveway in a mad rush.

He thinks of joining the Air Force, or the Army, or the Navy, but then realises his father could null that easy.

He then hits on the one service that would never allow george to break his contract.

The United States Marine Corps.

Before Daddums can do or say much of anything, George is on his way to Paris Island marine recruit depot.

What do you think?

That doesn't really seem to be in character for the frat rat he was at the time. If he got in some serious trouble - getting busted for drugs or getting a girl (or three) in "trouble" - and gets kicked out of school, maybe daddy realizes he's got a spoilt rotten brat on his hands and decides he needs a little discipline in his life. That'd be more in character (for both). Instead of the ANG, Ben Barnes pulls strings to get George into either Navy or USMC aviation. (Aviation because a stint in the Hanoi Hilton will do him extra good. Plus, sending POWs to Gitmo and OKing waterboarding would be out.)

[Jim Smitty]

This would be a fun TL to watch. I agree time in the Hanoi Hilton would do Bush good. Maybe Bush-McCain 00???

[SergeantHeretic]

That doesn't really seem to be in character for the frat rat he was at the time. If he got in some serious trouble - getting busted for drugs or getting a girl (or three) in "trouble" - and gets kicked out of school, maybe daddy realizes he's got a spoilt rotten brat on his hands and decides he needs a little discipline in his life. That'd be more in character (for both). Instead of the ANG, Ben Barnes pulls strings to get George into either Navy or USMC aviation. (Aviation because a stint in the Hanoi Hilton will do him extra good. Plus, sending POWs to Gitmo and OKing waterboarding would be out.)

Yeah, I could see that. Don't know why I didn't think of it.

[docfl]

I dont get it. Sr served in WW2, why would he be against Jr going into the military?
docfl

[SergeantHeretic]

I dont get it. Sr served in WW2, why would he be against Jr going into the military?
docfl

Because then Lit' Bushie might get killed, or worse, hurt in such a way as to make him unelectable.

[Meadow]

Because then Lit' Bushie might get killed, or worse, hurt in such a way as to make him unelectable.

But don't forget Jeb was the one who was going to be President. George Jr wasn't meant to grow up into politics.

[SergeantHeretic]

But don't forget Jeb was the one who was going to be President. George Jr wasn't meant to grow up into politics.

Ugh, Jeb Bush as President, the mind recoils.

[Dave Howery]

I dont get it. Sr served in WW2, why would he be against Jr going into the military?
docfl

maybe because he'd been to war? I'm curious as to how many men who've seen the horrors of war firsthand want their children to go through the same thing. Not to mention, WW2 was a war of necessity thrust upon the country, while Vietnam was a controversial not-really-necessary conflict...

[SergeantHeretic]

maybe because he'd been to war? I'm curious as to how many men who've seen the horrors of war firsthand want their children to go through the same thing. Not to mention, WW2 was a war of necessity thrust upon the country, while Vietnam was a controversial not-really-necessary conflict...
Another good point, thank you, and George senoir would be watching the same gorey news broadcasts as the rest of the country.

[Apollo 20]

The butterflies here are potentially profound even if W winds up with no political career of his own due to the trauma of being a POW. In 1970, Bush, Sr. was running for the Senate against Lloyd Bentsen. If you time this right, you could wind up with Bush in the Senate and that would change quite a few things...

[Osakadave]

maybe because he'd been to war? I'm curious as to how many men who've seen the horrors of war firsthand want their children to go through the same thing. Not to mention, WW2 was a war of necessity thrust upon the country, while Vietnam was a controversial not-really-necessary conflict...

Poppy seems like he was pretty accepting of Jr.'s misbehaviour until he endangered his little brother.

Bush apparently reached his nadir around Christmas 1972. Home for the holidays, worrying his parents by working too little and partying too much, he got carried away at a party with his 15-year-old brother Marvin, and drove the boy home drunk, smashing into a neighbor’s garbage cans and infuriating his parents. His father asked to see him in the den, and a drunk George W. burst in: “I hear you’re looking for me. You wanna go mano a mano right here?”

Jeb Bush broke the tension by announcing to his unhappy parents that George had been accepted to Harvard Business School.
http://www.salon.com/1999/11/23/bush_39/singleton/

Now if, as our POD, we move that incident to Xmas 1967, we have a reason for a change of heart.

Lets run with this for a path to the WH....

On Xmas eve, 1967, George W. Bush takes his brother Jeb (same age as Marvin was in the OTL accident) to a party. George gets drunk at the party, and on the way home has an accident. Poppy lays down the law: George is out of control and will go into the service or else - the real service, not some Gaurd unit. If he gets killed, at least it won't embarass the family name.

In May of 1968, George graduates from Yale and enlists in the USMC. In 1969, he becomes a naval aviator, qualified on the F-4. He is asssigned to Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 122, the "Crusaders". George takes to the life of a hot shot pilot, although he continues his drinking.

The "Crusaders" are deployed to Chu Lai, Republic of Vietnam, in the summer of 1969. In early 1970, George's Phantom is shot down and George is captured. He ends up in Hoa Lo prison, where he makes the aquantance of one John McCain. While a prisoner, George dries out and has a religious awaking.

In 1973, George is released. Having come to appreciate both the military life and sobriety, he made the decision to go career. At about the same time, Laura Welch is offered a position as a librarian in the Corpus Christi Independent School District.

In 1976 and 1977, George serves as a flight instructor at the NAS Corpus Christi. In March of 1977, Laura Welch and some friends are enjoying a spring break on the beach, when she meets a handsome USMC captain. By December, they are married.

George's continues in the USMC. Among the highlights of his career, as colonel, he commands the 3rd MAW in the first Persian Gulf War.

In 1998, Lt. General Bush retires and takes a position at Bechtel to help oversee their work on King Fahd International Airport.

In 2000, John McCain becomes the GOP candidate for president. He makes a surprise nomination for VP - his old friend from Loa Ho, George W. Bush. Being busier with the election campaign than IOTL, McCain does not get the invasive melanoma on his left temple examined until after the election. When it is finally detected and diagnosed, it is too late. McCain resigns in early August.

During the transition, the possibility that Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network would attempt to hijack a U.S.-based airliner is mentioned to George W. Bush. However, George is busy becominbg the president. On September 11, the attacks are carried out...

[SergeantHeretic]

Poppy seems like he was pretty accepting of Jr.'s misbehaviour until he endangered his little brother.


http://www.salon.com/1999/11/23/bush_39/singleton/

Now if, as our POD, we move that incident to Xmas 1967, we have a reason for a change of heart.

Lets run with this for a path to the WH....

On Xmas eve, 1967, George W. Bush takes his brother Jeb (same age as Marvin was in the OTL accident) to a party. George gets drunk at the party, and on the way home has an accident. Poppy lays down the law: George is out of control and will go into the service or else - the real service, not some Gaurd unit. If he gets killed, at least it won't embarass the family name.

In May of 1968, George graduates from Yale and enlists in the USMC. In 1969, he becomes a naval aviator, qualified on the F-4. He is asssigned to Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 122, the "Crusaders". George takes to the life of a hot shot pilot, although he continues his drinking.

The "Crusaders" are deployed to Chu Lai, Republic of Vietnam, in the summer of 1969. In early 1970, George's Phantom is shot down and George is captured. He ends up in Hoa Lo prison, where he makes the aquantance of one John McCain. While a prisoner, George dries out and has a religious awaking.

In 1973, George is released. Having come to appreciate both the military life and sobriety, he made the decision to go career. At about the same time, Laura Welch is offered a position as a librarian in the Corpus Christi Independent School District.

In 1976 and 1977, George serves as a flight instructor at the NAS Corpus Christi. In March of 1977, Laura Welch and some friends are enjoying a spring break on the beach, when she meets a handsome USMC captain. By December, they are married.

George's continues in the USMC. Among the highlights of his career, as colonel, he commands the 3rd MAW in the first Persian Gulf War.

In 1998, Lt. General Bush retires and takes a position at Bechtel to help oversee their work on King Fahd International Airport.

In 2000, John McCain becomes the GOP candidate for president. He makes a surprise nomination for VP - his old friend from Loa Ho, George W. Bush. Being busier with the election campaign than IOTL, McCain does not get the invasive melanoma on his left temple examined until after the election. When it is finally detected and diagnosed, it is too late. McCain resigns in early August.

During the transition, the possibility that Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network would attempt to hijack a U.S.-based airliner is mentioned to George W. Bush. However, George is busy becominbg the president. On September 11, the attacks are carried out...

Like the old lady said, "That'll do the job". That's it right, there, you've done it, you devil you. You gave me what I needed to have a tougher and tougher minded President George W. Bush in the big chair in our ATL.

[Osakadave]

And yet I still feel dirty...

[SergeantHeretic]

And yet I still feel dirty...
But WHY you did a great job, I love it.

[Osakadave]

But WHY you did a great job, I love it.

That's just how much I dislike W. - even if he's a more sympathetic and better president, he's still a privileged oligarch. (It may help to realize I lean towards Mutualist left libertarianism...)

[SergeantHeretic]

That's just how much I dislike W. - even if he's a more sympathetic and better president, he's still a privileged oligarch. (It may help to realize I lean towards Mutualist left libertarianism...)
Well, I truly bewlieve that most of the problems you have with Bush would have been amieliorated or eliminated by him serving in Nam and spending two years as a POW.

[AdA]

[QUOTE=MacCaulay;5825000]First off: this is a great idea. Honestly. This is the kind of thing I could write a fucking story about.

But let's just leave out the whole "ace" thing.

I'm saying that as an "editor". There was ONE ace in the entire Vietnam war.
You mean american ace, right? Some vietnamese pilots scored multiple kills, and their overclaimming is not much worse than US overclaimming?

After WWII and Korea, 2 kills was enough to make someone amazing. Hell, there's only been one pilot in the post-Vietnam era who's made more than one kill.
Do you mean the Saudi who shoot down two Iraqui planes with is F15? what about Iranian F14 pilots in the Iran Iraq war? And in the 82 massacre of the Syrian Air Force over lebanon do you mean nobody in the IDFAF scored more than one kill? Did nobody in the RN shoot more than one Argie in the Falklands?

[Brasidas]

Jumping back to the Cheney tangent,

Cheney turned 18 on January 30th, 1959. The first combat units were not deployed to South Vietnam until 1965. Regardless of what you think about deferments, and I think it is a bad policy, you can't dodge a war that hasn't occurred yet.

Conscription was in place prior to the Vietnam war. Deferments existed before the war; a deferment when you were 18 didn't mean that you didn't have to serve at some point, it just deferred your service.

Cheney did dodge the war with repeated deferments.

[SergeantHeretic]

Jumping back to the Cheney tangent,



Conscription was in place prior to the Vietnam war. Deferments existed before the war; a deferment when you were 18 didn't mean that you didn't have to serve at some point, it just deferred your service.

Cheney did dodge the war with repeated deferments.
Yes, Brasidas, he certainly did as he was of draftable age for the duration of the conflict.

[SilverSwimmer]

Please tell me someone is doing a TL on this. It would be amazing if done right.

[Emperor of Scandinavia]

http://liberalslikechrist.org/about/chickenhawks.html

The above link lists many "Chicken Hawks." GOP'ers who got deferments, or just didn't serve, and yet want to invade every country they don't like.

How could these people be different, if they had served, and survived their services?

Here are a few GOP'ers such as Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Don Rumsfeld, Michael Steele, Karl Rove, Grover Norquist, Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito,John G. Roberts, Jr., Clarence Thomas, Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson.

There are many other interesting people such as the Koch brothers, many Fox News hosts, and commentators (Glenn Beck, Bill Kristol...)

I personally could see Michael Steele as President. He is a moderate GOP'er, and with a military record, he could run for Senate, perhaps governor. Using his executive experience, and war record, he could be elected POTUS.

If Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito,John G. Roberts, Jr. and Clarence Thomas all served, I can't imagine anyone of them on the Supreme Court. At least one might be on the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Even if Arnold Schwarzenegger served, I can still see him go into politics. We might see Arnold as Governor of New York.:D

Newt Gingrich might learn a bit about discipline, and restraint if he served. I can see him becomming President because he's got the brains, and ideas, but he just needs self control.

Pat Robertson in Korea would create many interesting butterflies. The evangelist community would lose its best known member. Perhaps if Rush Limbaugh served, we might see the loud and abnixious radio talk show host become America's best known loud, and pious radio evangelist.

These are just some of my ideas.

Please check out the link because it has many good POD's that would make a great TL.


Wishing you well, his majesty,
The Scandinavian Emperor

[Decatur]

Even if Arnold Schwarzenegger served, I can still see him go into politics. We might see Arnold as Governor of New York.:D
Shwarzenegger was drafted into the Austrian Army when he was 18. He once went AWOL to participate in a bodybuilding competition and spent a week in jail for it.

Pat Robertson in Korea would create many interesting butterflies.
The revelation that Robertson had used his family’s influence to keep from serving in Korea was a major factor in quitting the presidential race in 1988.

[SergeantHeretic]

You know, not EVERY prominent member of the GOP is a loud war hawk who would never dream of serving and would never have their kids serve, but there sure are quite a number ouf them aren't there?

Yes, quite a number of them indeed.

(Waits patiently for someone to demand that I point out all the non military warhark democrats.)

[bguy]

Don Rumsfeld.

Why is Rumsfeld on that list? He served in the Navy.

[jmc247]

Well a RHINO in modern America cannot get the the GOP nomination for President. Junior saw how the Super right wing tuned on his Dad. He did not make that same error. By reading what his party really was and is made him a two term American President.

He did make the same error, but only after he won a second term.

[SergeantHeretic]

He did make the same error, but only after he won a second term.

By whitch point it was moot.Honestly I like what CalBear said about the modern American right wing,"If Ronald Reagen himself popped up revived and alive HIS views would be considered "Out of the AMerican mainstream" by the right wing demagouges of FAUX NOOZE.

[jmc247]

By whitch point it was moot.Honestly I like what CalBear said about the modern American right wing,"If Ronald Reagen himself popped up revived and alive HIS views would be considered "Out of the AMerican mainstream" by the right wing demagouges of FAUX NOOZE.

Talk radio, 24/7 cable news and sadly the internet as well has radicalized opinion on left and right. The loudest and most radical voices are heard the rest are ignored, mocked or banned from being heard.

[SergeantHeretic]

Talk radio, 24/7 cable news and sadly the internet as well has radicalized opinion on left and right. The loudest and most radical voices are heard the rest are ignored, mocked or banned from being heard.
Yes, though I am at best a moderate liberal with some classial conservative leanings, I am cast as a "LIBERAL COMMIE LEFTIST ELITIST" because I am not in lockstep with FOX news, and consversly I am called a "Gun loving warmongering psycho" for not swinging as far left as possible.

[Hyperion]

You know, just because Bush was a pilot and an officer doesn't mean he actually has to fly in order to see some action in Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Security_Forces

Assign him as a 1st Lieutenant in charge of a platoon of SF personnel guarding an air base somewhere in South Vietnam. Have him on some small engagements with Viet Cong or other irregulars trying to ambush the odd convoy outside the base, or be involved in a couple of incidents where one of his men gets injured or killed by a sniper or something.

It may not be as fancy or glamourous as flying a jet, but it would probably be a better way to give him a more up close and personal view of the war, actually pulling the trigger on an M-16 or a 9mm pistol with the intent to kill a Viet Cong or NVA soldier, actually seeing someone working directly under him killed and having to write the odd personal letter or two to some poor airman's family back in the states.

[SergeantHeretic]

You know, just because Bush was a pilot and an officer doesn't mean he actually has to fly in order to see some action in Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Security_Forces

Assign him as a 1st Lieutenant in charge of a platoon of SF personnel guarding an air base somewhere in South Vietnam. Have him on some small engagements with Viet Cong or other irregulars trying to ambush the odd convoy outside the base, or be involved in a couple of incidents where one of his men gets injured or killed by a sniper or something.

It may not be as fancy or glamourous as flying a jet, but it would probably be a better way to give him a more up close and personal view of the war, actually pulling the trigger on an M-16 or a 9mm pistol with the intent to kill a Viet Cong or NVA soldier, actually seeing someone working directly under him killed and having to write the odd personal letter or two to some poor airman's family back in the states.
Yeah, I thought about that, but I need to get him to a cell i nthe Hanoi Hilton, how do I do that if he never gets out of sight of an AMerican air base or FSB?

[pnyckqx]

First off: this is a great idea. Honestly. This is the kind of thing I could write a fucking story about.

But let's just leave out the whole "ace" thing.

I'm saying that as an "editor". There was ONE ace in the entire Vietnam war.

After WWII and Korea, 2 kills was enough to make someone amazing. Hell, there's only been one pilot in the post-Vietnam era who's made more than one kill.

Just saying. Apart fram that, man, I'm going to honestly think about this.i have to agree on the point of not having Bush become an ace.

George W. Bush flew the F-102 Delta Dart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-102_Delta_Dagger)
It was an interceptor, and utilised in a ground attack role in Vietnam.

Now to those who denigrate George W. Bush's political abilities, and intellect, Just hold on...apples and oranges.

The F-102 is an aircraft that hated pilots, and tried very hard to kill them. To fly one of them and live to tell the tale required a pilot of ability.

Whether one cares for his politics or not, George W. Bush comes from good stock as far as piloting ability goes. Daddy was no slouch himself, even though he had to go swimming twice during WWII.

It is conceivable that in terms of ability to make an aircraft do what he wants it to do, George W. Bush could have been selected to train on...say the F-4 Phantom II?

BTW, Bush's Air National Guard unit switched out to the F-106, and aircraft that did NOT see use in Vietnam.

So in order to get Bush there, he has to go as an F-102 Pilot, or some aircraft that did see action in theater.

[pnyckqx]

Pussy. I cannot believe that as a woman who served, I am more of a man than DIck Cheney.Hell, even Teddy Kennedy served.

Of the present crop of Republicans, only Ron Paul and Rick Perry had any military experience. That ought to really piss off some people.

In 2008 the only Republican candidates with military service were John McCain, Ron Paul and Duncan Hunter...out of about 12 contenders.

What really pisses me off was that "Mayor 9/11" got an exemption from the draft because of being a vital government employee...he was a US Attorney prosecuting draft dodgers. :mad:

From one retired soldier to another...Things aren't always as they appear Sarge.

[RPW@Cy]

In 2008 the only Republican candidates with military service were John McCain, Ron Paul and Duncan Hunter...out of about 12 contenders.


Just a thought. You make this sound like a bad thing, but what are the odds that a random group of 12 Americans would include three veterans? Were veterans underrepresented or overrepresented in that group as a share of the population and, if the latter, what was your point again?

[Hyperion]

Yeah, I thought about that, but I need to get him to a cell i nthe Hanoi Hilton, how do I do that if he never gets out of sight of an AMerican air base or FSB?

He'd have to be a pilot.

The biggest problem would be the transition time to a new aircraft if he goes into combat. The national guard squadron he flew in used what by late Vietnam where considered second rate jets, to by the time he retrains on an F-4 or another aircraft, the war could be over.

That and the idea of seeing someone in front of him, a young airman under his command taking a bullet could have a traumatic impact all in itself.

That and the possibility of him taking a bullet while leading a patrol would have an impact all on it's own.

As for the base itself, in South Vietnam, just because you where on a base didn't mean you couldn't get killed by the enemy.

[pnyckqx]

Just a thought. You make this sound like a bad thing, but what are the odds that a random group of 12 Americans would include three veterans? Were veterans underrepresented or overrepresented in that group as a share of the population and, if the latter, what was your point again?It is a bad thing.

Remember, these men were of an age. Namely the cold war and specifically Vietnam Era.

My point is that i don't want as a general rule some S.O.B. sending MY SON and/or GRANDSONS off to die, when they were reluctant to pay that ultimate price themselves.:mad:

If you can't see the hypocracy in that, i can't help you.

[SergeantHeretic]

He'd have to be a pilot.

The biggest problem would be the transition time to a new aircraft if he goes into combat. The national guard squadron he flew in used what by late Vietnam where considered second rate jets, to by the time he retrains on an F-4 or another aircraft, the war could be over.

That and the idea of seeing someone in front of him, a young airman under his command taking a bullet could have a traumatic impact all in itself.

That and the possibility of him taking a bullet while leading a patrol would have an impact all on it's own.

As for the base itself, in South Vietnam, just because you where on a base didn't mean you couldn't get killed by the enemy.
O.K., that's a fair point, and remembering my own experiences, I withdraw my earlier critismsm of the concept.

Dubya does NOT have to become a POW for his war to change him.

[SergeantHeretic]

It is a bad thing.

Remember, these men were of an age. Namely the cold war and specifically Vietnam Era.

My point is that i don't want as a general rule some S.O.B. sending MY SON and/or GRANDSONS off to die, when they were reluctant to pay that ultimate price themselves.:mad:

If you can't see the hypocracy in that, i can't help you.

While my emotions agree with you, my logical pragmatic proffesional side does not.

Your answer and reasoning FEELS good to me it FEELS right, but if I THINK about it, there is a flaw.

The United States is a Civilian nation.

Theorerically at least, War is not supposed to be the norm.

Then too, we, as Soldiers are the obedient servants of Civilians. We serve the citizens not the other way around, and therfore if our COmmander in Chief has never served a day in uniform, we'll neither have a majority of Senators and representatives and those folks are constitutionally empowered to declared war.

Sooooooo,........

[RPW@Cy]

It is a bad thing.

Remember, these men were of an age. Namely the cold war and specifically Vietnam Era.

My point is that i don't want as a general rule some S.O.B. sending MY SON and/or GRANDSONS off to die, when they were reluctant to pay that ultimate price themselves.:mad:

If you can't see the hypocracy in that, i can't help you.


What the Sergeant said. THE USA is a civilian nation, and whereas it might be emotionally satisfying for the commander in chief to have worn a uniform at some point it can in no sense be considered a requirement.

If it *is* to be a requirement however, then where do you stop? Consider for a moment - the biggest issues in US politics over the last decade or so seem (to this outsider, at least) to have been the war and healthcare. If you believe that only a veteran can oversee the war, then presumably you also believe that only a qualified doctor can bring in health care. Or, to put it another way, in your ideal world the only candidate in recent years fit to be POTUS is Ron Paul. Is this really your preferred solution?

[Cook]

When he comes home, Lt. Bush is a different man. He is somber, and serious. Barbara Bush laments that she no longer knows her son. George H.W. Bush is angered by his son's apparent dissaffection with "Traditional values".
Sombre and serious are not traditional values?
:confused:

[Hyperion]

I guess another aspect to look at would be his service after the war. By the time he would go to Vietnam in 1970, he'd already be a 1st Lieutenant. Stay a full year, give or take a month, and come home to a base in the US, depending on when his next four years are up, he'd be promoted to Captain at some point, if not while deployed then sometime after he gets back.

If he has a full 1 year deployment on his record, doesn't do too bad, and gets promoted to Captain, he might look at staying in the Air Force. That and if he's a Captain, at some point those gold oak leaves that Majors have are going to start looking really nice, though that would be more mid to late 1970s.

I don't know of Bush would have what it would take to become a Colonel or even a 1 star general, but the idea of him eventually retiring after 20 years with the rank of Lieutenant Colonel might not be out of the question.

[SergeantHeretic]

I guess another aspect to look at would be his service after the war. By the time he would go to Vietnam in 1970, he'd already be a 1st Lieutenant. Stay a full year, give or take a month, and come home to a base in the US, depending on when his next four years are up, he'd be promoted to Captain at some point, if not while deployed then sometime after he gets back.

If he has a full 1 year deployment on his record, doesn't do too bad, and gets promoted to Captain, he might look at staying in the Air Force. That and if he's a Captain, at some point those gold oak leaves that Majors have are going to start looking really nice, though that would be more mid to late 1970s.

I don't know of Bush would have what it would take to become a Colonel or even a 1 star general, but the idea of him eventually retiring after 20 years with the rank of Lieutenant Colonel might not be out of the question.
Which with his family connections would be like strapping a rocket to his back and pointing him at the oval office.

[Hyperion]

Which with his family connections would be like strapping a rocket to his back and pointing him at the oval office.

True. But it would give him a lot more experience, both hands on, and politically.

I guess a big issue might be how high up the ranks he goes. If he gets up to Lieutenant Colonel and retires after 20 years, I could see him making a good run for Congress at least.

OTOH, if he gets promoted to full Colonel, or possibly even gets nominated to become even a 1 star general, that could extend his career more to 25-30 years, possibly longer if he where to get a 2nd or 3rd star at some point. If he where to make a life career and become a 3 or 4 star general, it isn't uncommon for officers of any service that get that high up to not retire until their late 50s or early 60s.

Say he gets 3 stars has a couple of assignments for that level of rank and retires in his mid 50s without being nominated for that 4th star, if he doesn't go into politics right away, he could end up being nominated for a civilian job at the Pentagon.

[SergeantHeretic]

True. But it would give him a lot more experience, both hands on, and politically.

I guess a big issue might be how high up the ranks he goes. If he gets up to Lieutenant Colonel and retires after 20 years, I could see him making a good run for Congress at least.

OTOH, if he gets promoted to full Colonel, or possibly even gets nominated to become even a 1 star general, that could extend his career more to 25-30 years, possibly longer if he where to get a 2nd or 3rd star at some point. If he where to make a life career and become a 3 or 4 star general, it isn't uncommon for officers of any service that get that high up to not retire until their late 50s or early 60s.

Say he gets 3 stars has a couple of assignments for that level of rank and retires in his mid 50s without being nominated for that 4th star, if he doesn't go into politics right away, he could end up being nominated for a civilian job at the Pentagon.
SO a 4-star general G.W. Bush shunning politics alltogether and instead serving as the possible CJCS for a president like John McCain.

[Hyperion]

SO a 4-star general G.W. Bush shunning politics alltogether and instead serving as the possible CJCS for a president like John McCain.

Maybe not that high. I could see him maybe becoming a two or three star general, serving 30-35 years, and retiring to work a Monday-Friday 9-5 job at a defense contractor or some university or somewhere.

Settle down with whoever is wife would be ITTL(Barbara Bush and his twin daughters may well be butterflied away) raise any kids or grandkids, and generally not worry about politics, war, or what goes in in DC anymore.

If he has a civilian government job, I could see him being nominated maybe for an Assistant Secretary or Undersecretary of the Air Force or something, maybe even Secretary of the Air Force. Some mid level civilian leadership position that any President, democrat or republican could appoint him to.

[SergeantHeretic]

Maybe not that high. I could see him maybe becoming a two or three star general, serving 30-35 years, and retiring to work a Monday-Friday 9-5 job at a defense contractor or some university or somewhere.

Settle down with whoever is wife would be ITTL(Barbara Bush and his twin daughters may well be butterflied away) raise any kids or grandkids, and generally not worry about politics, war, or what goes in in DC anymore.

If he has a civilian government job, I could see him being nominated maybe for an Assistant Secretary or Undersecretary of the Air Force or something, maybe even Secretary of the Air Force. Some mid level civilian leadership position that any President, democrat or republican could appoint him to.
(Nods head and rubs chin, contemplativly,) Yeah,...yeah, OK I can see that.

[Benjamin XVIII]

http://liberalslikechrist.org/about/chickenhawks.html

The above link lists many "Chicken Hawks." GOP'ers who got deferments, or just didn't serve, and yet want to invade every country they don't like.

How could these people be different, if they had served, and survived their services?

Here are a few GOP'ers such as Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Don Rumsfeld, Michael Steele, Karl Rove, Grover Norquist, Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito,John G. Roberts, Jr., Clarence Thomas, Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson.

There are many other interesting people such as the Koch brothers, many Fox News hosts, and commentators (Glenn Beck, Bill Kristol...)

I personally could see Michael Steele as President. He is a moderate GOP'er, and with a military record, he could run for Senate, perhaps governor. Using his executive experience, and war record, he could be elected POTUS.

If Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito,John G. Roberts, Jr. and Clarence Thomas all served, I can't imagine anyone of them on the Supreme Court. At least one might be on the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Even if Arnold Schwarzenegger served, I can still see him go into politics. We might see Arnold as Governor of New York.:D

Newt Gingrich might learn a bit about discipline, and restraint if he served. I can see him becomming President because he's got the brains, and ideas, but he just needs self control.

Pat Robertson in Korea would create many interesting butterflies. The evangelist community would lose its best known member. Perhaps if Rush Limbaugh served, we might see the loud and abnixious radio talk show host become America's best known loud, and pious radio evangelist.

These are just some of my ideas.

Please check out the link because it has many good POD's that would make a great TL.


Wishing you well, his majesty,
The Scandinavian Emperor

I'm sorry but I have to address this.

Are you implying that someone who has not served in the military should automatically not support any wars?

That is absolutely, flagrantly ridiculous. So Instead of making decision based on the circumstances of the moment you would imply that one should decided whether or not war is a good idea based on some cowardly action they took 40 years ago?

Preposterous, ridiculous, and highly insulting to those of us who've chosen careers outside of the military. The military exists to protect American freedom, it is not an end in and of itself.

That said, Vietnam and Iraq were both terrible ideas. I do see your point about hypocrisy to a degree; but at the same time, politicians are often treated like this; like they can't change their mind or opinion about something over time.

Also I want to say I love this TL idea!

[SergeantHeretic]

Not to stick my head i nthe lion's mouth, but I am sorry, I have HUGE problems with non military warhaks that went out of their way to NOT serve, and yet cannot wait to send other people's kids to fight and die in some foreighn shithole.

I speak fro mthe perspective of a woman who did volunteer and DID give twenty years and a good piece of my sanity to the service of my country.

[Benjamin XVIII]

I can see the point about going out of their way but; to imply that Mitt Romney's kids should have to serve because their dad supports a war borders on ludicrous.
I was more taking a shot at the website EOS posted.

Also, thank you for your service. I respect the hell out of veterans, one of my deepest regrets is not serving/ not being able to serve.

[pnyckqx]

O.K., that's a fair point, and remembering my own experiences, I withdraw my earlier critismsm of the concept.

Dubya does NOT have to become a POW for his war to change him.
Simple enough to remedy. Just have your POD being that Bush's Air National Guard Unit transition to the F-4 Phantom in an adequate amount of time for what you've visualised to come to pass.

i concur though, you don't need to have Bush be a POW for the war to change him.

Matter of fact, in the Vietnam era, you don't even have to have Bush fly at all...Make him a FAC on the ground with the infantry.

Those guys saw some serious ground combat.

The example would be Charley Hastings USAF, Hal Moore's FAC in the Ia Drang campaign.

The Infantry needed somebody who could communicate with the pilots during close air support missions. Those guys were pilots during Vietnam. Hastings was a pretty good F-4 driver himself.

[Benjamin XVIII]

Just to be clear, my problem with the "chicken hawks" thing is mostly the time gap.

To be even more clear, I despise most of the politicians mentioned on that website, I just don't think we should waste time calling people out for stupid shit they did 40 years ago. Move on. Don't vote for them. I didn't.

[SergeantHeretic]

It still bothers me that not only do these Pricks NOT want to serven, not only do they not want their kids to serve, but they don't even want to pay the money that it costs to fight the wars THEY want to fight.

"Oh, no don't tax US we're the "Job Creators"."

[pnyckqx]

While my emotions agree with you, my logical pragmatic proffesional side does not.

Your answer and reasoning FEELS good to me it FEELS right, but if I THINK about it, there is a flaw.

The United States is a Civilian nation.

Theorerically at least, War is not supposed to be the norm.

Then too, we, as Soldiers are the obedient servants of Civilians. We serve the citizens not the other way around, and therfore if our COmmander in Chief has never served a day in uniform, we'll neither have a majority of Senators and representatives and those folks are constitutionally empowered to declared war.

Sooooooo,........It used to be my profession too, before i got too old to run with the pups any more. At this time though, i haven't addressed any real professional matters.

i think you might have missed my point.

i have no problem with Civilians in government making the decision to commit US Forces. That's the way the Country was set up, and that's the system we took an oath to defend, and that's really all there is to say about that matter.

My objection is to people who have no idea what they hell they're doing using the Military in a manner for which it was not designed to be used.

Nation building? Wrong, the purpose of the military is Nation breaking

Regime change? Not our job. It's the job of the people who live in that nation.

Occupation? Your hated nemesis, Douglas MacArthur wanted the occupation of Japan to last no more than three years. We STILL have troops there, even thought aside from being rightfully pissed at the North Koreans, the Japanese have no intention or desire for aggressive action against anyone. In fact, we're slowly getting the Japanese Self Defense Forces tied up in some of our misadventures. --they haven't deployed combat troops ...yet...

135 countries have US troops on their soil in over 900 bases (Not counting the US Marines that guard US embassies).

How the hell is this providing for the common defense?

All it is doing is depleting our blood and treasure for no return and plenty of harm to our national interests.

This isn't a right-left political paradigm. Both wings have consistently bad records. We always seem to replace a bad guy with a worse guy. Then we end up sending more kids off to straighten out our screwup later.

Somebody who has been on the ground knows this. Even so, there are people in our government who could not have served had they been so inclined, and i exclude them from this condemnation...FDR. Can't exactly lead an infantry platoon from a wheel chair.

Still, FDR and others were smart enough to listen to the guys who'd "been there, and done that". Not to say that he didn't make mistakes...ground commanders make mistakes too.

ANECDOTAL STORY (but true)
JFK had desired to meet MacArthur, because he'd never seen a living dinosaur. Kennedy was fascinated with the man, and invited him to the White House later that year.

He spent three hours talking with MacArthur During their conversation in 1961, he'd advised Kennedy against intervention in Vietnam, and that Kennedy should concentrate on domestic issues. Oddly enough, for an old right winger, Mac had nothing but contempt for the so-called "domino theory".

Kennedy didn't listen. The results are what we've seen.

TIE IN TO PRESENT DISSCUSSION

i don't really care who runs the military and makes deployment decisions, that's up to the American Electorate. What i do care about is that they are up to the job. While not necessary for them to be former military, one prerequisite is that they know how to listen to the people who DO know what the hell they're doing.

Draft Dodger Rudy, family exemption Newt, student deferment Joe (Lieberman), "I Loath the Military" Bill, "i was a Mormon Missionary" Mitt aren't going to cut it.

Boil-on-his-fat-ass Rush, "i had little kids and couldn't go to Afghanistan, but i want to send YOUR kids off to die" Sean (Hannity) and the rest of them can cheer lead all they want for "War without end, Amen, Amen" but their opinion isn't worth the photons it takes to transmit it over the monitor.[/RANT]

[pnyckqx]

Not to stick my head i nthe lion's mouth, but I am sorry, I have HUGE problems with non military warhaks that went out of their way to NOT serve, and yet cannot wait to send other people's kids to fight and die in some foreighn shithole.

I speak fro mthe perspective of a woman who did volunteer and DID give twenty years and a good piece of my sanity to the service of my country.None of my business, and i won't get offended if you tell me to mind my own business, but how long retired? i was under the impression that you either are still serving or just retired after DADT was repealed.

[SergeantHeretic]

For the most part we are in agreement.

For the most part.

The dissagreement comes when I look at most of the countries where we have troops and realize their geographical postition.

That's when it hits me.

Airbases, Naval Stations and Naval Air Stations out the yang.

Global reach.

The power to go and be anywhere we need to.

Logistical power projection that most other nations just cannot touch.

The ability to tell any dictator, "Don't screw with us, we can have our guys up your ass before you can pull your pants up" and have it be TRUE!

Think about what that kind of power really means.

I am no warmonger, but we NEED to maintain that global power projetion and that global reach network.

There is a big difference between wanting to back up a pal and or rescue an American i na foreign place and actually having the global logistical network that will let you do it.

[SergeantHeretic]

None of my business, and i won't get offended if you tell me to mind my own business, but how long retired? i was under the impression that you either are still serving or just retired after DADT was repealed.
I retured on an honorable medical classification in 08.

I have,...problems.

[pnyckqx]

What the Sergeant said. THE USA is a civilian nation, and whereas it might be emotionally satisfying for the commander in chief to have worn a uniform at some point it can in no sense be considered a requirement.

If it *is* to be a requirement however, then where do you stop? Consider for a moment - the biggest issues in US politics over the last decade or so seem (to this outsider, at least) to have been the war and healthcare. If you believe that only a veteran can oversee the war, then presumably you also believe that only a qualified doctor can bring in health care. Or, to put it another way, in your ideal world the only candidate in recent years fit to be POTUS is Ron Paul. Is this really your preferred solution?No secret that i support Ron Paul. i'm in good company, lots of my retired and still serving 'brothers' are with me on that.

irrelevant though.

My objection is to the present crop of 'chicken hawks' in both parties who are spending America's blood and treasure at a rate we can't sustain, in places we never needed to be, while when it was their time, they did all they could to avoid the same service.

Generally speaking, HELL YEAH! it's a good thing for them to learn what they're talking about or shut the hell up.

FDR is a perfect example of somebody with no military experience who did just fine leading his nation into war. But FDR didn't have chicken hawk delusions.

i've seen some kids on their seventh combat deployment. That's over seven YEARS in combat (Army tour).

Aside from what it is costing our nation, the human cost will be far worse, MUCH worse than Vietnam.

As per health care, forgive me if i'm mistaken but it sounds a whole lot like you're saying "What the hell does an M.D. know about health care?" i hope i'm wrong on that.

Now let's make a bit of a pact. Sarge wanted advice on this thread for what sounds like might be a good story...Turtledove material.

i'm going to dial back the rant factor so as not to derail this thread any more than has already happened.

It's just a case of "Some things make us regress."

[pnyckqx]

I retured on an honorable medical classification in 08.

I have,...problems.i get reminded of my 'travels' ever time the weather is about to change, i hope your issues aren't for the same reason.

Fortunately, my boy managed to escape getting THAT particular combat award during his time.

[SergeantHeretic]

i get reminded of my 'travels' ever time the weather is about to change, i hope your issues aren't for the same reason.

Fortunately, my boy managed to escape getting THAT particular combat award during his time.

I had four tours in Iraq to in the Stan back to back.

Now I have problems, things in my head that I have to manage.

I go see a thereapist now and again o nthe army's dime.

Because I have problems.

[pnyckqx]

For the most part we are in agreement.

For the most part.

The dissagreement comes when I look at most of the countries where we have troops and realize their geographical postition.

That's when it hits me.

Airbases, Naval Stations and Naval Air Stations out the yang.

Global reach.

The power to go and be anywhere we need to.

Logistical power projection that most other nations just cannot touch.

The ability to tell any dictator, "Don't screw with us, we can have our guys up your ass before you can pull your pants up" and have it be TRUE!

Think about what that kind of power really means.

I am no warmonger, but we NEED to maintain that global power projetion and that global reach network.

There is a big difference between wanting to back up a pal and or rescue an American i na foreign place and actually having the global logistical network that will let you do it.Don't want to derail this any further, so just let me say that there are easier and cheaper ways to do it. Remember how we first got our ground forces into Afghanistan back in 2001? Lots of those old carriers still around, and still servicable. Good enough for an Infantry and aviation brigade to be aboard for 3-6 month rotations...it also gives the Navy a spare flight deck in the event of an emergency.

NOW BACK TO TOPIC:

You can do a damned good story by putting Bush43 on the ground as a Forward Air Controller for an infantry unit. Lots of pilots served in such a manner. They also got involved in ground combat.

It would take a bit of research to find the appropriate place and time for Bush to be, but it would work out just fine.

You could even have him wounded and/or captured if you want to go that route.

i look forward to your story.

[SergeantHeretic]

At this point the story may not get written.

It might, but it might not.

Right now I am chasing too many rabbits.

[pnyckqx]

I had four tours in Iraq to in the Stan back to back.

Now I have problems, things in my head that I have to manage.

I go see a thereapist now and again o nthe army's dime.

Because I have problems.i avoided those people, and told my son to do the same thing. Don't trust them, never will. They have their own agenda, and your recovery is not it.

i wouldn't talk to anyone who didn't have a CIB or valor awards that you can ONLY get in combat --not everybody was infantry, but lots of non-infantry fought well.

Things fade with time, sorry that's the best i can tell you.:(

[SergeantHeretic]

i avoided those people, and told my son to do the same thing. Don't trust them, never will. They have their own agenda, and your recovery is not it.

i wouldn't talk to anyone who didn't have a CIB or valor awards that you can ONLY get in combat --not everybody was infantry, but lots of non-infantry fought well.

Things fade with time, sorry that's the best i can tell you.:(

Dude, it happens, BUsh and Cheney were playing toy Soldiers andl like many I got broken so they threw me away.

I'm just glad you didn't tell me I'm faking it" or "Just being a whiner".

I hear that from some folks.

[pnyckqx]

Dude, it happens, BUsh and Cheney were playing toy Soldiers andl like many I got broken so they threw me away.

I'm just glad you didn't tell me I'm faking it" or "Just being a whiner".

I hear that from some folks.Seen too much shit to do that to anyone. i don't know --don't want to know-- your story.

Hackworth used to compare the stress to a bottle. Each person is a bottle. Some bottles are bigger than others. Unless there's a chance to empty the bottle it fills up, and the soldier is not capable any more.

They have to get him (or her) away and let the bottle drain.

Unfortunately, it takes less to fill the bottle the next time(s).

With the regular Army the size it is, and the number of combat deployments increasing for the individual soldier, we're going to see a lot of that in the near future.

i have my own theories about what is going to happen with those people, but they're probably material best suited for another story on this board if i ever get around to writing it.

[SergeantHeretic]

Seen too much shit to do that to anyone. i don't know --don't want to know-- your story.

Hackworth used to compare the stress to a bottle. Each person is a bottle. Some bottles are bigger than others. Unless there's a chance to empty the bottle it fills up, and the soldier is not capable any more.

They have to get him (or her) away and let the bottle drain.

Unfortunately, it takes less to fill the bottle the next time(s).

With the regular Army the size it is, and the number of combat deployments increasing for the individual soldier, we're going to see a lot of that in the near future.

i have my own theories about what is going to happen with those people, but they're probably material best suited for another story on this board if i ever get around to writing it.

My bottle broke.

I won't say how or what the camel's straw was but, it just had too much in it and no time to drain so I broke and had to be cashed out as a pensioner.

SO now I live in my little house and I spend lots of time hiding from most people and I spend a LOT of time on these forums just spinning things out of my head and trying not to think of,...stuff.

That's pretty much all there is to me these days.

[pnyckqx]

My bottle broke.

I won't say how or what the camel's straw was but, it just had too much in it and no time to drain so I broke and had to be cashed out as a pensioner.

SO now I live in my little house and I spend lots of time hiding from most people and I spend a LOT of time on these forums just spinning things out of my head and trying not to think of,...stuff.

That's pretty much all there is to me these days.Already told you this earlier, but it bears repeating. Time. It takes time, and not just a year or two or five. i still get the nightmares once in a while, and a lot of guys had it worse than i ever did.

First time i ever came under fire, i screwed up. Got mesmerized by the tracers of the incoming fire. At the last second i realized what the pretty lights were, and got the hell down. i was pissing myself in the fetal position saying "Oh shit! Oh shit!..."till i pulled it together. Had some strong 'encouragement' from my squad leader to do just that.

Didn't even realise i'd been hit. Nothing much to talk about, band aid Purple Heart. Doc just bandaged it later, and i continued the mission. But the point is that every once in a while, i see that in my sleep. i see the tracers coming in, and i can't get the hell out of the way, like i'm in slow motion. i can feel the impacts when it wakes me up. Maybe once a year or less that happens.

What is important is what you do with your time. This board. It's a great place to explore some of your ideas, see how they'd work with some people who know their shit. It makes you think. Doesn't matter what about, just that you have to think.

It's a start Sarge. And if it's all you can manage, well, it's better than substance abusing your life away, or getting into a destructive relationship with somebody who is screwed up worse than you.

If this kind of thing interests you, have at it. Get good at it. Maybe you can sell some short stories one of these days. There are writers of that caliber here on this board. Statichaos (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=113866)
is one fellow who comes to mind. He's got some problems of his own, but follow the link and you'll see what is possible.

i'm a little unique here. i'm not a kid. Hell, i've got grandchildren, and i started late. And i've made damned near every mistake that it's possible to make and live to tell the tale.

[SergeantHeretic]

Well, pnyckqx, you just listed the reasons why I am on here and why I average sixy friggen posts PER DAY.

This is how I cope, this is what I do. No drugs, no booze, no gambling, no dysfunctional relationionships, for me my fantasy escapism is entirly self generated and costs not one thin dime. I guess I'm lucky that way.

I know what you mean about your first action, standing there like a dipshit and watching it happen, the same thing happened to me the first time I got into a really for real firefight. I just stood there watching. I got hit in the leg, non-fatally, and a woman I loved more than life itself was hit fatally.

That is just one of many things I carry around every day.

[La Rouge Beret]

The opportunity to explore a POD where George W Bush serves as a FAC I think would result in a vastly different man.

Alternatively if we consider his father's service as a Naval aviator, I think that it is possible for George W to join the senior service. With his personality, particularly if he becomes a deck officer, I could see him volunteering for the Brown Water navy. If that happens we may have a similar ATL George W with a different POD.

[SergeantHeretic]

The opportunity to explore a POD where George W Bush serves as a FAC I think would result in a vastly different man.

Alternatively if we consider his father's service as a Naval aviator, I think that it is possible for George W to join the senior service. With his personality, particularly if he becomes a deck officer, I could see him volunteering for the Brown Water navy. If that happens we may have a similar ATL George W with a different POD.
George W. captaining a PIbber i nthe Delta. that could get pretty gritty, man.

[Just Leo]

We'd have to wave away John Fogerty's "Fortunate Son" because it was Dubya he was singing about. Shame to lose good Credence.

[SergeantHeretic]

We'd have to wave away John Fogerty's "Fortunate Son" because it was Dubya he was singing about. Shame to lose good Credence.
I liked that song too, still kind of tough to rib him when he's in the Delta with the rest of the guys.

[pnyckqx]

We'd have to wave away John Fogerty's "Fortunate Son" because it was Dubya he was singing about. Shame to lose good Credence.No evidence of that. In fact, the lyrics "I ain't no Senator's son" would be a better fit for Gore, who was pulling guard duty at the Stars & Stripes Offices in Saigon while Fogerty was out in the weeds.

George H.W. Bush was a Senator's son, but he was never a Senator. And Bush41 did his time flying an Avro. Had to go swimming twice during WWII.

Revised: My mistake. Fogherty DID NOT serve in Vietnam.

[pnyckqx]

The opportunity to explore a POD where George W Bush serves as a FAC I think would result in a vastly different man.

Alternatively if we consider his father's service as a Naval aviator, I think that it is possible for George W to join the senior service. With his personality, particularly if he becomes a deck officer, I could see him volunteering for the Brown Water navy. If that happens we may have a similar ATL George W with a different POD.FAC could be a pretty hairy job (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOwwAf7QMPs&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLABD3FEC61F157585).

The guy on the radio calling in the napalm strikes is Lt. Charlie Hastings, USAF.

[SergeantHeretic]

FAC could be a pretty hairy job (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOwwAf7QMPs&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLABD3FEC61F157585).

The guy on the radio calling in the napalm strikes is Lt. Charlie Hastings, USAF.
And trhe other kind of CHarlie was willing and happy to fold spindle and mutilate Lt. Hastings to get him to quit doing his job.

[pnyckqx]

And trhe other kind of CHarlie was willing and happy to fold spindle and mutilate Lt. Hastings to get him to quit doing his job.Maybe. But they'd better do a complete job, cause when Col. Hastings (ret) got back into the cockpit of his F-4, he could pay that bill back with interest.

You do have something to work with here though.

Just figure out when you want Bush43 in Vietnam, and find out where the battles were during that time. Put him on the ground with the appropriate unit, and you'll have a good story.

BTW, you'll have mail shortly. i have an idea that i'll mention to you privately.

[SergeantHeretic]

Maybe. But they'd better do a complete job, cause when Col. Hastings (ret) got back into the cockpit of his F-4, he could pay that bill back with interest.

You do have something to work with here though.

Just figure out when you want Bush43 in Vietnam, and find out where the battles were during that time. Put him on the ground with the appropriate unit, and you'll have a good story.

BTW, you'll have mail shortly. i have an idea that i'll mention to you privately.


Yeah, our dudes o nthe ground in SE Asia were so badassing that the only way we COULD lose was chronic systemic mismanegment at the COmmand level in DC.

[La Rouge Beret]

FAC could be a pretty hairy job (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOwwAf7QMPs&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLABD3FEC61F157585).

The guy on the radio calling in the napalm strikes is Lt. Charlie Hastings, USAF.

I think that you misunderstand me, I did not demean being a FAC and it is a difficult job.

My point is we can have a different POD, and still arrive at the same man in an ATL. My thoughts are if we want to have a different George W, than give him responsibility and command. Additionally if he goes to the Brown Water Navy he is working with a plethora of organisations, ARVN, RVN, USAF, US Army, Seals, SOG, and the Khmer Serei.

[pnyckqx]

I think that you misunderstand me, I did not demean being a FAC and it is a difficult job.

My point is we can have a different POD, and still arrive at the same man in an ATL. My thoughts are if we want to have a different George W, than give him responsibility and command. Additionally if he goes to the Brown Water Navy he is working with a plethora of organisations, ARVN, RVN, USAF, US Army, Seals, SOG, and the Khmer Serei.Not offended or argumentative at all. Please forgive me if my response came off that way. It certainly was not my intention.

While i could be wrong, i believe that Sarge has an outline or at least a general idea for this TL. It should be interesting

The war in the Delta was interesting in the Chinese sense of the word ("May you live in interesting times"), and the US probably had the wrong troops there. In terms of civilian casualties inflicted upon the population of the Delta, the 9th Infantry Division was NOT the unit to have there, at least not under the command of "The Butcher of Dong Tam (http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/jjewell.htm)". It probably would have been better to have the US Marines deploy into the Mekong Delta (IV CTZ), and move the army up to the DMZ.

[Matt Wiser]

Just found this thread, but there's several problems with this:

1) The Texas Guard's two fighter squadrons at the time flew F-102A Delta Daggers. Both squadrons were NORAD-dedicated and never made a foreign deployment.

2) The only ANG squadrons sent to SEA were F-100 squadrons from Colorado, New Mexico, Iowa, and New York, during the Pueblo Crisis.

3) ROLLING THUNDER, the bombing of NVN, was halted on 31 October, 1968, and had been over for 18 months by the time Bush joined the ANG.

4) The two active duty F-102 squadrons in South Vietnam had been returned to the States in 1969, and one of them lost an aircraft to a MiG during their deployment.

Unless he joins the regular Air Force, it's not very likely.

[SergeantHeretic]

Just found this thread, but there's several problems with this:

1) The Texas Guard's two fighter squadrons at the time flew F-102A Delta Daggers. Both squadrons were NORAD-dedicated and never made a foreign deployment.

2) The only ANG squadrons sent to SEA were F-100 squadrons from Colorado, New Mexico, Iowa, and New York, during the Pueblo Crisis.

3) ROLLING THUNDER, the bombing of NVN, was halted on 31 October, 1968, and had been over for 18 months by the time Bush joined the ANG.

4) The two active duty F-102 squadrons in South Vietnam had been returned to the States in 1969, and one of them lost an aircraft to a MiG during their deployment.

Unless he joins the regular Air Force, it's not very likely.
Yes, Matt, I know, many different people have told me essentially the same thing on al lthe pages you didn't bother reading, we've do on to another possibility entirly, go ahead and read the thread, that way, you can catch up with the rest of us.

[Matt Wiser]

There are several possiblities: though in the 1970-71 time frame, largely involve SVN or Laos (and remember, of over 300 airmen shot down in Laos, only nine returned from Hanoi in 1973, and none from Laos).

1) He volunteers for A-1 Sandy duty, and is shot down over Laos or SVN and sent up the Trail to Hanoi and release in 1973.

2) F-4, either a fighter or the RF-4C variant. Shot down over Laos or southern NVN (RF-4s did make recon runs into NVN despite the bombing halt.

3) FAC duty, either in O-2s or OV-10s. However, very few FACs returned from captivity in 1973: it was said that there was a bounty on them, dead or alive. There were exactly three FACs, in fact, who did return in 1973, and those three were 1971-72 captures.

4) F-105 Wild Weasel: the hariest, most dangerous flying in SEA: First in, last out, looking for SAM or AAA radars, and killing them with Shrike or Standard-ARM antiradar missiles. Though a number of F-105 Weasel crews were shot down, and most of those in the 1966-68 time frame who made it out of the aircraft did return, there were several known to have bailed out and were alive on the ground, who did not. The same goes for a number of Weasel backseaters shot down in 1972. The pilots were either captured or rescued, but the backseater, though known alive on the ground, didn't come home. And a rookie 2nd or 1st Lt. is not going to be given a Weasel at this stage of the war.

[SergeantHeretic]

Matt as of now I am leaning toward either making Dubya and F-4 jockey or a FAC.

[MrHuman]

We'd have to wave away John Fogerty's "Fortunate Son" because it was Dubya he was singing about. Shame to lose good Credence.

No it wasn't.

The song was inspired by David Eisenhower, the grandson of President Dwight David Eisenhower who married Julie Nixon, the daughter of President Richard Nixon, in 1968. John Fogerty told Rolling Stone: "Julie Nixon was hanging around with David Eisenhower, and you just had the feeling that none of these people were going to be involved with the war. In 1968, the majority of the country thought morale was great among the troops, and like eighty percent of them were in favor of the war. But to some of us who were watching closely, we just knew we were headed for trouble.

[La Rouge Beret]

Matt as of now I am leaning toward either making Dubya and F-4 jockey or a FAC.

For what it's worth, my preference would be for George W to become a FAC. As from a TL perspective it creates more opportunities for him to meet people from outside of his upbringing and that in itself would be interesting to see how it affects his personality and later political views.

[SergeantHeretic]

For what it's worth, my preference would be for George W to become a FAC. As from a TL perspective it creates more opportunities for him to meet people from outside of his upbringing and that in itself would be interesting to see how it affects his personality and later political views.
That is my thinking as well.

If we can get Dubya to develope his sense of cross-class and cross-cultural empathy, then we're in business.

[pnyckqx]

For what it's worth, my preference would be for George W to become a FAC. As from a TL perspective it creates more opportunities for him to meet people from outside of his upbringing and that in itself would be interesting to see how it affects his personality and later political views.That is always going to be a hard one to predict. One's political views do not correspond to the horrors of ground combat. Note the differences in existing OTL politicians. Daniel Inowe, Bob Dole, Duncan Hunter Sr., and Bob Kerrey.

The one factor that appears to be a constant is the ability to work and play well with others. This is independent of what ever ideology one takes on.

i do agree with your observation though. With real combat experience, i could easily see George W. Bush as President standing off certain advisors with the "Are you out of your f*cking mind?" factor when he gets some of the crazier advice from those people who have never handled a firearm or worn so much as a cub scout uniform in their life.

With the 'hearts and minds' phrase from Vietnam echoing in his head, i could see him easily rejecting advice to allow mission creep in Afghanistan, and get away from trying to 'build democracy' in a land where it will never be accepted.

That means a lot less kids in body bags and a government that isn't clutching at it's chest against the heart attack that the economy is taking from almost 11 years of combat.

Sorry, there are some things i have rather strong opinions about.

[SergeantHeretic]

That is always going to be a hard one to predict. One's political views do not correspond to the horrors of ground combat. Note the differences in existing OTL politicians. Daniel Inowe, Bob Dole, Duncan Hunter Sr., and Bob Kerrey.

The one factor that appears to be a constant is the ability to work and play well with others. This is independent of what ever ideology one takes on.

i do agree with your observation though. With real combat experience, i could easily see George W. Bush as President standing off certain advisors with the "Are you out of your f*cking mind?" factor when he gets some of the crazier advice from those people who have never handled a firearm or worn so much as a cub scout uniform in their life.

With the 'hearts and minds' phrase from Vietnam echoing in his head, i could see him easily rejecting advice to allow mission creep in Afghanistan, and get away from trying to 'build democracy' in a land where it will never be accepted.

That means a lot less kids in body bags and a government that isn't clutching at it's chest against the heart attack that the economy is taking from almost 11 years of combat.

Sorry, there are some things i have rather strong opinions about.

Strong opinions are O.K., and in terms of the fundamentals, I think you and I agree.

Where we might disagree is this.

I don't like bullies.

I spent much of my early life as the small, weak victim of people who were bigger and stronger than me and used that advantage to do whatever they wanted to do to me with impunity.

It's one of the reasond I joined the Army, it's why I have and keep guns, it's why I keep up on my self defense training even at my age.

It's why I think the United States should either oppose bullies or stay home.

I absolutly LOATHE people who want us to befriend bullies in the name of short term expediency and then wonder why the emboldened bully is now picking on us. (Osama Bin Laden)

What my point?

After the end of the Afghan war i nthe 80's the SOviets had left, but the country was in shambles, and we did not engage the Afghans in a rebuilding reconstruction effort that would have been a pittance of the cost to evict the Soviets.

As a result Afghanistan was a rich fertile ground for the Pakistani Taliban and Osama Bin Laden to make the Country int oa Terrorist Tortuga.

ANd what was the cost of that?

September the Eleventh, 2001.

[pnyckqx]

Strong opinions are O.K., and in terms of the fundamentals, I think you and I agree.

Where we might disagree is this.

I don't like bullies.

I spent much of my early life as the small, weak victim of people who were bigger and stronger than me and used that advantage to do whatever they wanted to do to me with impunity.

It's one of the reasond I joined the Army, it's why I have and keep guns, it's why I keep up on my self defense training even at my age.

It's why I think the United States should either oppose bullies or stay home.

I absolutly LOATHE people who want us to befriend bullies in the name of short term expediency and then wonder why the emboldened bully is now picking on us. (Osama Bin Laden)

What my point?

After the end of the Afghan war i nthe 80's the SOviets had left, but the country was in shambles, and we did not engage the Afghans in a rebuilding reconstruction effort that would have been a pittance of the cost to evict the Soviets.

As a result Afghanistan was a rich fertile ground for the Pakistani Taliban and Osama Bin Laden to make the Country int oa Terrorist Tortuga.

ANd what was the cost of that?

September the Eleventh, 2001.We dealt with that. Poorly as it turned out. We didn't finish the damned job! :mad:

The job would have been finished with Osama bin Laden and Mullah Ohmar's rotting heads mounted on pikes on the South Lawn of the White House with a sign under it that reads "THIS is what happens when you piss us off"

The Islamic world would have respected that as "taking care of business".

i have no use for Lt. Col. James "Bo" Gritz. i think the man is probably insane, or at least going through alcohol related dementia. However, when he has good information, his analytical abilities are still first rate.

He did an analysis of the strategic situation after 9/11, citing among other sources the report of General Wayne Dowling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_A._Downing)

Gritz concluded, rightfully i think, that Afghanistan was not going to result in the Islamic world taking retaliatory measures, but Iraq was going to be seen as excessive.

It was excessive, and stupid. Allowing mission creep to happen in Afghanistan was stupid as well.

We needed to get the people we held responsible for 9/11, and get the hell out of there.

You don't use the Army to build nations, you use the army to BREAK nations.

And you damn sure don't try to 'build democracy' where it isn't appreciated or wanted. Afghanistan and the tribal areas of North and South Warziristan in Pakistan are tribal in nature, not nationalists, and Hamid Karzai is a puppet who barely controls the Kabul area...he wasn't even our first choice.

[SergeantHeretic]

Short sightedness is the enemy of sound future planning.

It is the enemy of sound national policy.

It is the enemy of sound personal planning.

Ever play chess?

You can't just plan one or two or ven three moves ahead.

We have to plan TEN moves ahead.

We cannot just say, "Let's go have the war and then go home."

We have to plan for what happens after the war, and what happens after that and what happens after that.

We have en0ough trouble with fighting the wars we have, we don't need to fight the wars of our parents and our grandparents and our grandparents grandparents.

It's not enough to win the war, we have to win the peace.

"I will destroy my enemy for good and ll by making my enemy into my friend."--Abraham Lincoln.

[pnyckqx]

Short sightedness is the enemy of sound future planning.

It is the enemy of sound national policy.

It is the enemy of sound personal planning.[/quote]...and a fact of the American Political system regardless of which party is in control

Ever play chess?

You can't just plan one or two or ven three moves ahead.

We have to plan TEN moves ahead.Haven't played since the 1970's. The game bores me these days.

We cannot just say, "Let's go have the war and then go home."Hate to borrow a political slogan, but "Yes, we can."

We have to plan for what happens after the war, and what happens after that and what happens after that. Too busy trying to win. No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

We have en0ough trouble with fighting the wars we have, we don't need to fight the wars of our parents and our grandparents and our grandparents grandparents.Unfortunately, that has been the American Experience, and apparently will continue to be as long as we continue to put inadequate persons into positions of leadership. Because of an Eisenhower Administration screwup with Iranian policy, Jimmy Carter had a wonderful second term.

It's not enough to win the war, we have to win the peace.

"I will destroy my enemy for good and ll by making my enemy into my friend."--Abraham Lincoln.Lincoln was not one of my favorite people, and that didn't work out too well for him. Besides, even Jesus had enemies. That is just a fact of human existence.

Don't mean to be down Sarge, but one has never gone broke underestimating the stupidity of humanity, both individual and collective.

[SergeantHeretic]

I just don't buy this, I CAN'T allow myself to buy this. if I let this sink into my head and accept this as reality, my next move will be to eat one of my own guns.

[nemo1986]

To deviate from the conversation somewhat, someone actually did a timeline where GWB did do air service in Vietnam. If I remember right he never gets shot down though. He serves pretty well and after the war he becomes a test pilot and later joins NASA and was going to be part of a new program to go to the moon. Bush 41, becomes president after Nixon resigns, because bush won the senatorial election the first time he ran and was a big Vietnam supporter since his son was flying over the skies there and backed any bill that supported the forces which makes Nixon like him enough to become VP after his previous VP had to resign.

Course the main POD in that timeline was Bush 43 met and married Obama's mom making Dubya his step-dad.

It was a fun timeline.

EDIT: found it http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=151071

[Paul V McNutt]

Does having a P.O.W. son help George H W Bush in his 1970 senate race?

[pnyckqx]

Does having a P.O.W. son help George H W Bush in his 1970 senate race?6-5 and pick em Paul.

Both George H. W. Bush and Lloyd Benston had good combat records in WWII.

It was Benston's strong pro Vietnam war stand that endeared him to conservatives, and allowed him to beat Senator Yarborough in the Democratic primary. He's not going to back off on what got him the nomination to please a bunch of North Eastern liberals who don't vote in Texas.

It will make the vote much closer.