AHC: Australian-American War in 1960s/1970s

[whitecrow]

I was playing some Grand Theft Auto games and the in-jokes they have about the Australian-American War (http://gta.wikia.com/Australian-American_War) amused me :). Any way to have such a war occur in 1960s/1970s without totally changing the way U.S.A. and the world looks like from 1980s to the present?

[Enigmajones]

Pretty impossible, considering that Australia is one of the United States biggest allies after WW2. Ever heard of ANZUS? Or even the failure of SEATO?

[whitecrow]

Well, it doesn't have to be a total war. What about a minor dispute that spirals out of control into some sort of military clash/incident?

[Cook]

Nixon has a US Carrier Battle Group launch a team of US Marines to rescue Frank Sinatra from the hotel suit in which the trapped. To ensure there is no intervention in the mission, air strikes are carried out on RAAF bases, destroying Australia’s F-111 fleet.
;)

[Riain]

The USAF attacked HMAS Hobart off Vietnam in 1968, the planes did two passed and fired 3 missiles which hit the ship. When the planes came back for a third pass the Hobart fired 5 5 inch rounds at the planes which then broke off and left.

There you go, done!

[Emperor Norton I]

We can go the Sliders route, which is ASB:

In WW2 the Japanese occupy Australia. The Soviets later liberate the Island Continent, dividing it between Communist North and Democratic South. The two sides exist in a state of perpetual Civil War between eachother from there on, until the 90's. It's Vietnam exactly, except with the Outback-Cong instead of the Vietcong.

[Cook]

It's Vietnam exactly, except with the Outback-Cong instead of the Vietcong.
So it’d be the Joh Bjelke-Peterson Trail instead of the Ho Chi Minh trail.
;)

[TaintedTamt]

We can go the Sliders route, which is ASB:

In WW2 the Japanese occupy Australia. The Soviets later liberate the Island Continent, dividing it between Communist North and Democratic South. The two sides exist in a state of perpetual Civil War between eachother from there on, until the 90's. It's Vietnam exactly, except with the Outback-Cong instead of the Vietcong.

Lol the only way I can see a war brewing is if America went Fascist and wanted our Uranium but other then that nothing.

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Pretty impossible, considering that Australia is one of the United States biggest allies after WW2. Ever heard of ANZUS? Or even the failure of SEATO?

FYI, ANZUS wasn't really functional since the US wanted to impose its nuclear subs in New Zealand bases.

[Cook]

FYI, ANZUS wasn't really functional since the US wanted to impose its nuclear subs in New Zealand bases.
Or to put that correctly, since David Longe decided that nuclear armed vessels could not enter New Zealand ports and the US maintained a policy of not saying what ship was or was not nuclear armed.


And ANZUS was still functional, being invoked in 2001 following the attack on New York and Washington.

[La Rouge Beret]

So it’d be the Joh Bjelke-Peterson Trail instead of the Ho Chi Minh trail.
;)

Don't you worry about that

[Cook]

Don't you worry about that
B-52’s saturation bombing the guerrilla base camps around Kingaroy while insurgents infiltrate down along the Darling River Basin, subsisting for days on a bag full of peanuts and a couple of pumpkin scones…

Walter Cronkite declaring that the war is lost when the north violates the AFL Grand Final Weekend Ceasefire.

[sum sine regno]

We all know how this ends, Canada torches Washington yet again and calls it a day.

[MadMaper 13]

POD at or before WWI
the Americans joins the Germans after France dose something stupid. Brition and her Empire sever ties with America but do not actually declare war.
Several American ships are destroyed by Britain and the US retaliates by invading boarder areas Canada and occupies Major Cities.
A truce is announced soon after the Invasion but relations are strained on both sides. There is an uneasy peace for the next 40 years.
In the late fifties a diplomatic incident between Australia (now containing New Zealand) and the US over an Island in the Pacific triggers a war where America invades Australia.


It's ASB i know

[Arachnid]

Walter Cronkite declaring that the war is lost when the north violates the AFL Grand Final Weekend Ceasefire.


Now that's really ASB, Australians, even banana-benders doing something on AFL Grand Final Weekend? Impossible.

[Marc Pasquin]

We can go the Sliders route, which is ASB:

In WW2 the Japanese occupy Australia. The Soviets later liberate the Island Continent, dividing it between Communist North and Democratic South. The two sides exist in a state of perpetual Civil War between eachother from there on, until the 90's. It's Vietnam exactly, except with the Outback-Cong instead of the Vietcong.

So Queensland (SupremeLeaderLand ?) going left and New South Wales becoming reactionary ? that would be interesting to see and especialy wether Katter and Hanson woud becomes Party appartchicks: true People's Representatives.

[Marc Pasquin]

We can go the Sliders route, which is ASB:.

was that in an actual episode ?

[Cook]

especialy wether Katter and Hanson woud becomes Party appartchicks...
No big stretch for Bob.

[Thande]

The only thing that springs to mind is that American pressure in the Gough Whitlam dismissal affair is revealed and the Aussies go collectively psycho over it. But that would only result in NZ-style isolationist neutrality rather than an actual war.

[Daylight Savings]

was that in an actual episode ?

Yes it was. If I remember correctly that was the one where the golden age of the hippy in San Francisco never ended and the 1990's looked just like the 60's.

[Cook]

American pressure in the Gough Whitlam dismissal affair is revealed...
Oh dear. No Conspiracy Theories please, even in this ASB thread.

[whitecrow]

We can go the Sliders route, which is ASB:

In WW2 the Japanese occupy Australia. The Soviets later liberate the Island Continent, dividing it between Communist North and Democratic South. The two sides exist in a state of perpetual Civil War between eachother from there on, until the 90's. It's Vietnam exactly, except with the Outback-Cong instead of the Vietcong.
You know, something like this may be unlikely but not ASB. It would require:

1) Japanese focusing on capturing Australia. Maybe for whatever reason the leadership decides to expand the Empire south instead of west into China (thus avoiding the whole fiasco there)?

2) A partisan leader like Tito or Hoxha who would lead a successful resistance against Japanese occupation without Soviets entering the country. After the war the partisan leader than sets up a communist country in part of Australia.

[Arachnid]

It also requires a complete reworking of Australian Demographic geography. So its a Commie North versus a Capital south?

Well if you draw a line from 20 miles north of Brisbane to the Indian Ocean not only have you got the most conservative part of Australia (even then) but you have about 1/30th of its population. There's no one there!

[Marc Pasquin]

It occur to me that in common parlance, people probably wouldn't talk about North/South Australia since you have a South-Australia state already. Maybe Communist/Free Australia instead ?


Incidently, I give to you the flag of the Democratic Socialist Republic of Australia. One assume that Free Australia would still use the pre-war one.

[Arachnid]

You know, something like this may be unlikely but not ASB. It would require:

1) Japanese focusing on capturing Australia. Maybe for whatever reason the leadership decides to expand the Empire south instead of west into China (thus avoiding the whole fiasco there)?

2) A partisan leader like Tito or Hoxha who would lead a successful resistance against Japanese occupation without Soviets entering the country. After the war the partisan leader than sets up a communist country in part of Australia.

Finding a Commie Queenslander or Terratorian is a bloody hard. Its called the Deep North for a reason.

[whitecrow]

Finding a Commie Queenslander or Terratorian is a bloody hard. Its called the Deep North for a reason.
Why does it have to be a North-South divide?

[Emperor Norton I]

Why does it have to be a North-South divide?

That's where the Japanese would be coming in from. Then again, that could also be a likely place where the Western Allies would start liberating.

[Arachnid]

Why does it have to be a North-South divide?

Because getting to South-Eastern Australia (where everyone lives) is bloody difficult. Its one of the hardest places on the planet to invade after New Zealand logistically. It's bloody miles from anywhere and Japanese logistics were dodgy at the best of times.

[Cook]

This thread's been going two days now and still hasn't been moved over to ASB?

What gives?
:confused:

[whitecrow]

This thread's been going two days now and still hasn't been moved over to ASB?

What gives?
:confused:
Because it is unlikely, but not ASB.

If you want an ASB thread based on the premise, I already made one: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=214904

[Alex1guy]

The USAF attacked HMAS Hobart off Vietnam in 1968, the planes did two passed and fired 3 missiles which hit the ship. When the planes came back for a third pass the Hobart fired 5 5 inch rounds at the planes which then broke off and left.

It would be seriously ASB if a friendly fire incident caused a war. Australia isn't a poorly programmed RTS ally who attacks you when a siege weapon misfires, a war on this premise would be ridiculous.

[Cook]

It would be seriously ASB if a friendly fire incident caused a war.
Riain was saying that was the war. Call it the Five Minute War if you like. Alternatively you can always fall back on the Battle of Brisbane.
;)

[whitecrow]

Because getting to South-Eastern Australia (where everyone lives) is bloody difficult. Its one of the hardest places on the planet to invade after New Zealand logistically. It's bloody miles from anywhere and Japanese logistics were dodgy at the best of times.
I'd figgure that if Japanese get to North Australia they can use is as a jump-off point to get to the populated areas.

[BlondieBC]

I'd figgure that if Japanese get to North Australia they can use is as a jump-off point to get to the populated areas.

Japan had bad logistics. Japan had about 100 divisions in China, but the USA only face 10 or so at any given time.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm

Skip the Pearl Harbor Part, and go to the Shipping part. The pie chart says it all. Also remember Japanese freighters are slow, maybe 10 knots.

[Riain]

Riain was saying that was the war. Call it the Five Minute War if you like. Alternatively you can always fall back on the Battle of Brisbane.
;)

Yes, I`m annoyed we lost the 5 minute war.

[Sam R.]

The United States would destabilise and probably provide "Advisors" if the Communist Party Australia achieved partial hegemony in government. This would require fairly radical changes in the parliamentary composition of the labour movement, and the role of parliament in Australian economic life—this is within the realms of possibility, but it would require an even harsher reaction in the 1950s than the historical deindexation of basic wages and margins. One could, perhaps, consider a less state capitalist Menzies, a Menzies truly devoted to 19th century style liberalism.*1 This would provide the spur for the smashing of the ALP as a result of a direct confrontation, a sustained 20 year anti-union campaign, and the "period of unrestrained wages and prices growth" to commence earlier than 1968 (ie: prior to US interventionism being discredited).

So lets say Pat Mackie wins the Mount Isa insurrection in 1965 using arms smuggled in by the WWF/MUA illegal CP underground.*2 The collapse of the NSW and Victorian governments (Liberal-National coalition, and Liberal respectively) leads into the period of Orders in Council (1965-1968). The schism within the Army over the constitutional legitimacy of the OiC emergency government, especially in its extraordinary activities in Victoria and NSW including the Glebe Clearance Action and Bloody May in Wollongong results in the United States advisors requesting assistance in 1967.

As far as the flag of free Australia, the CPA were waving the Red Ensign in the 1940s and 1950s as part of their nationalist thing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Civil_Ensign_of_Australia.svg

They're quite likely to not significantly modify this. If they were _successful_ I'd expect them to move the Commonwealth star to the centre middle of the left half, or to replace the jack with the Commonwealth star. Of course, the constitutionalist elements of the Australian Army and the trade union based communist supported workers militia are likely to be liquidated in 1968. Probably in some instances by a long walk off a high helicopter.

156455

yours,
Sam R.

*1 Yes, a 19th century style liberal government goes against Breton Woods, the post war compromise, and even Ming's instincts to support Australian manufacturing within what he hoped would be a functional imperial system. The following fantasy of Australia as the experimental house for the boys from chicago starting in 1947 is fantastic and incredible. Australian capital in the period was quite satisfied with the reactionary potential of deindexation.
*2 Of course the CPA dissolution bill passes in a reactionary Ming timeline.

[Marc Pasquin]

Yes, I`m annoyed we lost the 5 minute war.

S'ok, we'll last longer next time. we just need to think about cricket or something.

[Riain]

It would have been good if one of the 5 rounds the Hobart fired shot down one of the planes, then we would have won.

[Marc Pasquin]

It would have been good if one of the 5 rounds the Hobart fired shot down one of the planes, then we would have won.

Although it might have pissed off the yanks a bit and the war would have lasted a tad longer.

[Riain]

Yeah, but what are they gunna do, we`ve already shown we can shoot down their planes with a 5 inch gun.

[RamscoopRaider]

Yeah, but what are they gunna do, we`ve already shown we can shoot down their planes with a 5 inch gun.
Something we Yanks knew full well it was possible to do with a 5 inch gun. Frankly this might convince the commander to retaliate and sink the destroyer, just might

[Riain]

Our 8 Canberras in Vietnam were 5% of the TFW they were part of but were credited with 16% of the assesed bomb damage, at that rate we`d just turn our Canberras on them and bomb them back to the stone age.

[StevoJH]

I was playing some Grand Theft Auto games and the in-jokes they have about the Australian-American War (http://gta.wikia.com/Australian-American_War) amused me :). Any way to have such a war occur in 1960s/1970s without totally changing the way U.S.A. and the world looks like from 1980s to the present?

From the "in real life" section....
Also the isolation of Australia in the southern Pacific, sheer distance from America, no valuable resources worth waging war for, and no strategic advantage against any other nation makes such a war impractical.

So Oil, Coal, Natural Gas, Gold...oh and the worlds largest uranium deposits arent valuble? :D

[Marc Pasquin]

So Oil, Coal, Natural Gas, Gold...oh and the worlds largest uranium deposits arent valuble? :D

Not when you have to deal with all those horrible drop bears.

[StevoJH]

Not when you have to deal with all those horrible drop bears.

Ah, drop bears...there used to be one hiding up the tree in the back yard when I was a kid.....