Splinters - Rommel Dies At Alam Halfa

[Cymraeg]

Yes, I know, I need to work on Cato's Cavalry. But this damn thing popped into my head as I slogged my way through the slimy mud that is Epping Forest today. In the middle of the Battle of Alam Halfa Rommel was caught in a bombing raid and a bomb fragment only just missed him. What if that fragment had actually hit him? What would the consequences be?

===============================================

Before Alam Halfa Ridge, September 2nd, 1942

“The swine isn’t attacking!”

Lieutenant Gottfried Lehring looked at the map again whilst his commanding officer raged up and down the folding map table by the side of the command car. Field-Marshal Erwin Rommel was in a very bad mood. To be honest Lehring couldn’t blame him at all for that.

The attack was not going well. The plan had been to burst through the British minefields and then swing north to capture the ridge to the North-East. From there they’d slash through the British supply lines, pin the bulk of their army against the sea and dash for Alexandria. At least that had been the plan. Lehring hadn’t been sure that they had enough petrol to get to Alexandria, but there was always the chance of capturing a juicy British petrol dump.

To get there however, they had to get through the British – and they were not co-operating. Normally the British were extradinarily profligate with their armoured divisions, charging straight into range of the German anti-tank guns and losing the lot. However, their new commander seemed to have a better grip on affairs than their previous one, because this time the British tanks were stuck in hull-down positions on that damn ridge and had already beaten off one attack, whilst their artillery hosed the German forces with high explosive.

And all the time the RAF was in the air above them, bombing, strafing and making a total nuisance of themselves. Everyone was gaunt-eyed and miserable from lack of sleep and Lehring was getting very worried about the Field Marshal. He wasn’t a well man and he looked worse than ever today. He was also in a very bad mood. His subordinate commanders were dropping like flies – Von Bismark, the commander of the 21st Panzer Division was dead, whilst Nehring, the commander of the Afrika Korps had been badly wounded.

Rommel was now looking through his binoculars at the ridge again, muttering under his breath. Lehring watched him quietly – until he spotted movement out of the corner of his eye. Shit, more planes.

“Herr Feldmarshall! Another bombing raid!”

Rommel looked around and swore again as the first explosions started a few hundred yards away. “Take cover!” he bellowed and promptly threw himself into a slit trench to one side.

Lehring looked around wildly and then on impulse jumped into the same trench, causing Rommel to move to one side slightly. “Keep your head down boy,” he grunted.

“Yes sir,” shouted Lehring and then the bombs were on them, splitting the air with a series of concussive eruptions that left Lehring’s head ringing and covered him in fine powder.

When the explosions stopped he raised his head cautiously. The vehicles were almost unscathed, although an armoured car to one side had taken a direct hit and was burning fiercely. The rest of the staff were also starting to stir from whatever cover they’d been able to find.

“That could have been worse,” Lehring muttered as he climbed out of the trench and then brushed ineffectually at the dust. “Are you alright sir?”

Rommel did not reply and Lehring looked down into the trench again. The Field Marshal was hunched over at the bottom of it. He wasn’t moving.

“Sir?” Lehring called, as panic squirrelled its way across his stomach. “Are you alright?”

Rommel still made no response and Lehring jumped down into the trench and hurried over to him. “Sir!” He shook Rommel’s shoulder. There was no response at all. Lehring reached down and pulled him to one side carefully. A metal splinter that had to be at least 6 inches long was buried in Rommel’s right temple. His eyes were open and lifeless.

Lehring looked up into the face of Kompff, who was looking over the side of the trench and who seemed as panicked as Lehring felt. “Shit,” he whispered, “What the hell do we do now?”

[Cymraeg]

No comments at all so far? :(

[RPW@Cy]

No comments at all so far? :(

nothing much to say yet other than more, and quickly:)

[CalBear]

NOTE: Thread title changed at OP request.

[Cymraeg]

NOTE: Thread title changed at OP request.

Thanks CalBear - I wrote the original title covered in flour after making pizza dough and in desperate need of a very cold beer. My brain cells were not therefore firing on all cylinders.
I have an idea about what happens next, but I have a question first - with Rommel dead, who would Hitler appoint in his stead? IIRC Guderian was still in bad odour with the Bohemian Corporal at the time.

[kclcmdr]

Send smiling Albert Kesserling... :D

Or one of the exiled to a rest-home German General or Field Marshal for failing Der Fuehrer on the Eastern Front... :o

[Cymraeg]

I don't think that Kesselring is seen by Hitler as a competent ground commander yet - that doesn't happen until the Italian campaign, when his prediction that Italy will capitulate comes true.
I don't think that he'd send Manstein or Balck or Model or even Hoth - they're all needed in Russia. The thing is that he'd need a major name to replace Rommel, who was a major name and a good propaganda tool. The more I think about it, the more that Guderian's name springs to mind, but is that feasible?

[Hyperion]

Before debating a replacement, I would try to consider the effect of Rommel being dead and how that will effect the outcome of the current battle.

Short term, for the next month or so, I would use whichever general is already on the ground in North Africa that is second to Rommel.

That and picking some bigwig or nobody to take over might not matter if the German line collapses without Rommel. Take into account him not giving orders, and the moral blow the German forces would likely suffer with him dead.

[Cymraeg]

Before debating a replacement, I would try to consider the effect of Rommel being dead and how that will effect the outcome of the current battle.

Short term, for the next month or so, I would use whichever general is already on the ground in North Africa that is second to Rommel.

That and picking some bigwig or nobody to take over might not matter if the German line collapses without Rommel. Take into account him not giving orders, and the moral blow the German forces would likely suffer with him dead.

That's what I was also thinking. I'll put out another post hopefully today (Sunday).

[Cymraeg]

“Herr Generaloberst?”

Franz Halder looked up wearily from the pile of paperwork that he’d been struggling with for two hours. It had been a long and rather unpleasant day at Wehrwolf, the Fuhrers headquarters in the Ukraine. At least the summer heat was starting to ebb a bit. Adjusting his pinz-nez he looked at the officer who was standing at the entrance to his office. “What is it Elbing?”

“We’ve received a signal from Rommel’s headquarters Herr Generaloberst. We’ve, um, triple-checked it.”

Halder blinked. Elbing looked rather disconcerted, something that he’d never seen before on the man. “Why should you need to triple-check it?”

Elbing strode forwards and placed a message flimsy on the desk in front of him. “I’m afraid it’s bad news, Herr Generaloberst.”

Irritated, Halder looked down at the message. When he read what was on it he felt the blood draining from his face. “Is this...” he started to say before catching himself. “Yes, you triple-checked it. Damn it, I always knew that he took too many chances getting so close to the frontlines.”

Standing quickly Halder grabbed the flimsy and then his cap before stalking out of the cottage that was his office and then over towards the wooden cabin where Hitler was staying. As he approached the SS guards who were standing outside snapped to attention and then opened the door for him.

Inside Hitler was consulting a large map on one wall with Jodl and Keitel in close attendance. He was, once again, talking about the need to capture the oil fields around Maikop intact. As Halder entered he broke off his diatribe and looked at the head of OKH in surprise. “Something wrong Halder? You said that you were dealing with administrative matters today.”

“I was mein Fuhrer, but we’ve just received a priority signal from Egypt.” He looked down at it. “There was a bombing raid on Rommel’s headquarters today. Although Rommel took cover… he was killed by a bomb splinter. It was a chance in a million apparently.”

There was a long pause and then Hitler took his glasses off and sank down into a chair. “That’s very bad,” he said eventually. “He’s definitely dead?”

“I’m afraid so.”

“Damn it!” Hitler struggled to his feet again and then walked over to the map table. “How is the attack going in Egypt?”

“Not well mein Fuhrer. Apparently the British have changed tactics. Rommel was getting ready to assault the Alam Halfa position again – it seems to be more strongly held than we initially thought.”

Hitler grunted dismissively. “They’ll take it if they can show more unwavering determination. The British will fold.” He looked at Halder. “If Rommel is lost, who will take command in Egypt?”

Halder winced slightly. “Casualties have been high in the senior staff of Panzerarmee Afrika I’m afraid. Normally Nehring would take over, but he was badly wounded earlier on. Von Bismarck, the commander of the 21st Panzer division is dead – his vehicle hit a mine. That leaves the commander of the 15th Panzer division, von Vaerst.”

“Is he any good?” Hitler asked.

“He’s well regarded, but he’s never commanded anything larger than a Panzer division, mein Fuhrer.”

“I see,” said Hitler, folding his arms and glaring down at the map. “Send a message to him at once Halder. He is to continue the attack. That’s what Rommel would have wanted. Speaking of Rommel we’ll have to organise a state funeral for him. Goebbels will love that. Oh and who do we have who can replace him?”

“I’m not sure mein Fuhrer. I’ll draw up a list of candidates immediately. I must point out though that most of the more likely candidates are here on the Eastern Front.”

This brought Jodl into the conversation. “Now might not be the time to transfer any of our major commanders. We need our best people here.”

“How long will it take you to draw up that list Halder?” Hitler asked.

“I’ll start on it as soon as I pass your orders onto von Vaerst mein Fuhrer.”

“Good,” said Hitler as he and Jodl returned to the map on the wall.

[Cymraeg]

Halder placed his pinz-nez on the table and then leant back in his chair and rubbed his eyes tiredly. It was very late and he needed a lot of sleep. Unfortunately he was not looking forward to his eventual meeting with Hitler about Rommel’s replacement. He’d been working for hours on an initial list – and he did not think that Hitler would like his findings.

Germany’s best commanders were almost all tied up in the fighting in Russia. Manstein was the first name to leap to mind, but he was busy repelling that Soviet attack at Leningrad. There wasn’t a chance in hell that Hitler would release him. It was the same with Hoth. And Model.

So, he had to find someone who wasn’t on the active list just now, or who was presently serving in the West. Von Rundstedt had too much to do in France and besides had only been there since March. Besides, he wasn’t really a panzer expert. Hoepner was out as well, as he was busy suing for the restoration of pension rights after being sacked in January for retreating from in front of Moscow.

No, there was only one real candidate. Heinz Guderian. Who had also been dismissed for retreating in Russia. Of course, mused Halder as he replaced his pinz-nez, persuading Hitler that it had to be Guderian was going to be a major battle in itself.

He looked at the clock on the wall and wondered how things were going in Egypt. Von Vaerst ought to have gotten his orders hours ago.

[Hyperion]

Interesting so far.

I can't comment much until I see how things go further.

One thing I would say, if the battle taking place in Egypt goes worse for the Germans this time around, and the British find out Rommel is dead, this could well spell the doom of the Axis in North Africa some months sooner.

If the Germans take a moral blow, I would think this would give the British a major moral boost. Add to that the battle at Alam Halfa going worse for the Germans, and this might even give Churchill a few brownie points the next time he meets with Roosevelt and Stalin.

[Hyperion]

Sorry for a double posting

I've just checked on the all mighty wikipedia on this battle, and noted something interesting.

Even though the battle continued through September 2nd, Rommel apparently decided on the 2nd that his chances of winning where not good from the current position of the battle, and it would just add to his losses.

If Von Vaerst continues to attack for another day or so, even if he inflicts more casualties on the British forces, he could leave the German and Italian forces in a far worse position than OTL.

[Cymraeg]

Sorry for a double posting

I've just checked on the all mighty wikipedia on this battle, and noted something interesting.

Even though the battle continued through September 2nd, Rommel apparently decided on the 2nd that his chances of winning where not good from the current position of the battle, and it would just add to his losses.

If Von Vaerst continues to attack for another day or so, even if he inflicts more casualties on the British forces, he could leave the German and Italian forces in a far worse position than OTL.

That's why I got so interested when I heard about Rommel's near miss from the bomb fragment, which happened before he decided to retreat. It's a POD from such a small but potentially significant event.

[Paul V McNutt]

I am looking forward to a more massive British victory at El Alamain. Rommel's replacement is not going to have the chuptzpah to withdraw. The British destroy the Afrika Corps in early November 1942 and North Africa is secured earlier.

[Hyperion]

I am looking forward to a more massive British victory at El Alamain. Rommel's replacement is not going to have the chuptzpah to withdraw. The British destroy the Afrika Corps in early November 1942 and North Africa is secured earlier.

Though an OTL British victory, Alam Halfa actually had a relatively low casualty rate.

I don't really see the Germans and Italians collapsing by November, but the idea of them collapsing in December or January of 1943 isn't impossible.

[Paul V McNutt]

Though an OTL British victory, Alam Halfa actually had a relatively low casualty rate.

I don't really see the Germans and Italians collapsing by November, but the idea of them collapsing in December or January of 1943 isn't impossible.

That moves up the timetable for the invasion of Italy. That would still consume most of 1943, so we don't get an earlier invasion of Normandy. So ITTL we don't get all that much of different WWII>

[Cymraeg]

My wife is attending a wedding in Montana this week and as I'm still interviewing for jobs in London it's the first time that we've been apart for a week ever. I think that as a result I'm compensating for missing her horribly by writing a lot. No idea where all of this timeline has come from. :confused:
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10pm Sept. 2nd, XIII Corps HQ, 8th Army.
Lieutenant-General Brian Horrocks scratched his chin and then permitted himself a small smile as he looked at the map. So far his first major battle as a corps commander was going well. Monty had told him that he was not to get mauled by Rommel and so far he had succeeded.

His forces on Alam Halfa ridge had so far beaten off two attacks by German tanks and although they’d lost a number of tanks themselves they were still in excellent shape. He was puzzled though. So far the German attacks had been poorly executed – more slowly and more hesitant than he had expected. One of his staff officers had made the excellent point that Rommel seemed to have the slows for once, a nice take on Abraham Lincoln’s comment about McClennan.

He paused. He’d heard a vehicle draw up outside his tent a few minutes earlier and now he heard voices outside. One of those voices was familiar and all of a sudden the tent flap opened to reveal Freddie de Guingard. His eyes were glittering and he was grinning fiercely. “Hello Jorrocks!”

“Hello Freddie. You look pleased with yourself. Should I be worried?”

De Guingard grinned even more fiercely and then removed his cap. “I have some good news for you Jorrocks. We’ve learnt that Rommel was in front of our lines this morning – and that he didn’t survive an air raid on his chaps.”

Horrocks froze in place, his jaw dropping open. “I beg your pardon?”

“Rommel is dead,” de Guingard grinned. “Good god, do you have any idea how long I’ve been hoping to say that? The bugger’s gone.”

“Are you sure?”

De Guingard sobered. “We’re sure. Our SLU rushed the news to us. Monty took it coolly but I could tell that he was a bit astonished by it.”

Horrocks nodded. “Well then – what now?”

“Depends on what whoever the Jerries replace Rommel with decides on. They’ve broken their heads on your chaps on the ridge. If they want to keep doing that then they’re more than welcome. What they should be doing is pulling back, as they’ve lost any chance of surprise. They don’t seem to be though.” He stepped over to the map on the table and gestured at it. Horrocks’ forces were mostly aligned along or behind the Alam Halfa ridge, with the exception of 7th Armoured, which was holding a blocking position to the South and 2nd New Zealand division to the West. “We know that he can’t move further east, as he doesn’t have the petrol. It’s the ridge or nothing – and your chaps are dug in there in depth.

“Monty wants you hold on the ridge, but to thin out your forces to the North just in case. If Rommel’s replacement keeps banging his head against the ridge then we have a chance to send heavier forces against his supply lines than the armoured cars that are making a nuisance of themselves at the moment.”

Horrocks looked at the map thoughtfully, checking the locations of his forces and their dispositions. “Freyberg’s chaps are well located,” he muttered as he pointed at the New Zealanders. “The only problem is that one of their brigades, the 132nd, is very green. Plus they don’t have any tanks.”

De Guingard smoothed his moustache out. “You have the 22nd and 23rd Armoured brigades on Alam Halfa ridge or next to it,” he said softly. “Monty was wondering if you need 8th Armoured brigade where it is now, not too far from 7th Armoured Division.”

Thinking furiously Horrocks nodded slowly. “I think that’s possible. I’ll order them to thin out their line tonight and pass through the 44th Division on the ridge. Then if the situation is right I’ll send them to Freyberg. I’ll tell him to use Kippenburgers chaps – 5th New Zealand brigade – and the 8th if we have a chance to close the gate behind the Africa Corps. The more I think about the less happy I am with using the 132nd brigade.”


11pm 2nd September, HQ Panzerarmee Afrika
“The eyes of the German people are with you in this hour of destiny.” Von Vaerst whispered the words quietly as he stared down at his own map. It had been a hellish day. He hadn’t slept properly for two days and by the sound of engines far ahead as well as the explosions in the distance there was little if any chance of him sleeping tonight as well. Oh and there was also the crushing weight of responsibility that had been dropped on his head that day as well.

He’d been horrified when the news had come through. He’d been preparing to step in as temporary commander of the Afrika Korps, but to be told that Rommel was dead and that he was in command of Panzerarmee Afrika had been a stunning blow.

He sighed heavily. The situation was not good. All the attacks against that bloody ridge had failed in the face of heavy British resistance, assisted by skilful use of their artillery and air force. Supplies of every sort, especially petrol, were in critically short supply. The soft sand that shouldn’t have been there also meant that what petrol they did have was being burned up too quickly.

The petrol was the thing that worried him the most. Their supply units were being shot up to the west by British armoured cars, which were swarming about like flies. Hard to swat those flies as well, they knew the ground too well. As things stood his units had 100km of fuel left – and that range was only accurate over good going. That bloody soft sand would cut it down.

If it was up to him he knew what to order – a retreat back to their own lines. They’d lost any chance of getting to Alexandria and the way that the British had started to fight he had a funny feeling that the rules of the Desert War had changed. This Montgomery fellow wasn’t like the others. He was making them fight on his terms, not theirs. He didn’t like that feeling.

But it wasn’t up to him. His orders from Hitler were unambiguous. He was to continue the attack. He rubbed his forehead in a combination of tiredness and despair. He had to order the attack. There was no way around it. He’d been in command for less than a day – damn it, why the hell had Rommel gotten himself killed? This would be his problem then.

Well, maybe it would work. The British had to have supply dumps behind that ridge somewhere. If they could force a gap and then inflict enough chaos to force a mobile battle that got into the Tommies rear areas… it was a slender straw to grasp at.

He looked back down at the message again. “The eyes of the German people are with you in this hour of destiny.”

[Tyg]

One wonders what they'd do without enough petrol to retreat.

[Cymraeg]

One wonders what they'd do without enough petrol to retreat.

Well, stationary tanks with no fuel make great targets for a start! :D

[Hyperion]

I didn't consider running out of fuel.

Even if the bulk of the army where to escape, a lot of their equipment and vehicles could still be lost. That would be nice if the British have North Africa wrapped up by Christmas of 1942.

After that, plan on spending Christmas of 1943 in Rome perhaps?

[Cymraeg]

The gunner swore under his breath as he squinted through the sights of the 6-pounder. This bugger was a tricky one. The Mark IV was jinking quite a bit as it crunched up the slope towards the gun position and he’d already missed it twice. He paused for a moment… there! He grinned and then sent a shell straight into the side of the bloody thing. Its driver had zigged when he should have been zagging and the shell punched a neat hole right where that driver had to be. The tank jerked to a halt. Another shell clanked into the breech and he felt a slap on the back of his helmet from the loader. “Up!”

He squinted again and then sent the next shell straight into the back of the tank, which shuddered and then started to burn. No-one got out and it was too far away to tell if there was any screaming. He preferred it that way. Nothing worse than being in range of a burning tank. Carefully he looked around. There were no more moving tanks – wait. He could see some more Mark IIIs, but they were moving off, away from the ridge. Retreating? He took a deep breath and then relaxed slightly for the first time in an hour, rubbing at his aching and sweaty arm. He’d been holding the firing mechanism too bloody tightly again.

As he grinned at the rest of the gun crew, who were throwing away the brass debris that lay around them he wondered vaguely what the fuck the jerries were playing at. It wasn’t like them to commit suicide like this. Ah well, it wasn’t his problem. He scratched his ear and wondered if the supply bods had brought any of the papers up. He wanted to know if Jane was showing her legs again today.

[Cymraeg]

1pm, 3rd September, Alam Halfa Ridge
The bottom of the ridge was hard to see at times, even with binoculars, due to the amount of dust and smoke. Horrocks lowered his own binoculars and shook his head. Well, the Germans weren’t coming up that route any time soon. Their latest probe had been mercilessly squashed – impaled on the anti-tank defences and on the tanks firing from hull-down positions and then shattered by the massed artillery of XIII Corps as well as the unending bombing raids by the RAF – and the SAAF, the USAAF and so on. He had to give the flyboys their due – they’d performed spectacular feats.

Hearing the sound of tracks crunching he looked over the side of his own command tank. Ah, Pip was coming. The commander of the 22nd Armoured brigade drew up in his Grant and saluted. “Morning sir! Come up to see the party?”

“We seem to be doing quite well,” he replied, saluting back as Roberts climbed down off his tank and then climbed up onto Horrocks’ one. “How are your fellows doing?”

“Nothing new after that attack at noon sir. They’ve feinted to our right a few times, but given the fact that we shelled them heavily nothing came of it.”

“Any further losses?”

“Nothing beyond the casualties we took this morning,” said Roberts sombrely. He’d lost another five Grants and ten Valentines earlier on – but the Germans had taken even more savage losses. “The chaps have got their tails up sir. Hearing on the BBC that Rommel’s dead has sent morale soaring. We’ve pulled the damaged tanks back for repair. We’ll be fine, sir.”

Horrocks nodded, relieved. They were doing very well indeed. “I can’t understand what they’re playing at,” he said softly. “They’re getting no-where and taking horrible losses at the same time. Why aren’t they pulling back?”

“Couldn’t say sir,” Roberts confessed. “They’re usually cannier than this. I must say though, I quite like watching them wreck themselves on our guns instead of the other way around. We’re paying off a lot of scores.”

Horrocks grinned at him before raising his binoculars and scanning the horizon again. “What the hell are they thinking? Why haven’t they pulled back.” He lowered them again. “8th Armoured brigade is well on its way over to Freyberg. If we can push down towards Himeimat…”

“They’ll fight like hell if we threaten their line of retreat sir,” Roberts warned.

“Depends on how short on supplies they are,” Horrocks replied. “Well, we’ll have to see. Keep holding the line Pip.”

“Yes sir,” said Roberts, saluting and then returning to his own tank again.

[titulus regius]

I'm enjoying this thread and it's good to see Jorrocks in action. A true 'officer and gentleman' who was already ready to discuss matters military with a fellow old soldier, regardless of rank.

[Cymraeg]

6pm, 3rd September, HQ Panzerarmee Afrika
“It can’t be done,” von Vaerst muttered. “It just can’t.”

It had been an even more hellish day than yesterday. All day he’d tried to find a way up that thrice-damned ridge in an effort to find a weak spot in the British defences. Two major attacks and ten feints had gone in. None had worked. The British defences were too strong and their tanks had remained welded to the ridge. Attempts at luring them down off it and onto the waiting German anti-tank guns had all failed.

And all the time the British artillery had lashed his men with concentrated high explosive whilst their planes had droned endlessly overhead, adding their own deadly contribution. His men were exhausted – short of sleep and increasingly unwilling to venture away from their vehicles and slit trenches. Food was in short supply and fuel was even shorter. And to make matters worse the men knew that Rommel was dead. The Tommies had crowed about it on the BBC after Berlin had admitted it and now morale was lower than the soles of their boots.

Kesselring had promised him more fuel but the brutal truth was that there was none really to be had. Two tankers had been sunk and much of the trickle of petrol that was arriving in Tripoli and Tobruk was being consumed by the lorries that were bringing it to the front. Worse, the supply trucks that were bringing up that remaining trickle to him were being ravaged by British armoured cars and light tanks. 56 of them had been destroyed that afternoon alone.

It was a nightmare. 15th Panzer had lost 50 tanks, 14 of which were the new long-barrelled Mark IV, which were almost priceless. 21st Panzer had also been hammered, losing 70 tanks. As for the Italian armoured divisions they were taking even more savage losses, with more than half their badly armoured tanks lost.

He had to admit defeat and retreat. Their attempts at getting through the ridge had failed. The question was, did he have enough petrol to get everyone out? True, they’d be retreating along their own supply lines, which would ease the shortages a bit, but he was still very worried. There was soft sand all over the place and that would make them burn through their remaining petrol even faster.

Berlin would not be happy with him, but he had no choice at all. He rubbed his chin and glared down at the map. He’d have the Italians pull back to form a blocking force to the North-West and then pull his panzers back. He’d have preferred to have 90th Light form that blocking force with support from 21st Panzer, but they were so short of petrol now that it was touch and go if they could even disengage properly and make it back. The last thing he needed was a blocking force that was out of petrol and strung out over the desert. The British would smash it to pieces.

He would issue the orders tonight and pull back the next day.

[Cymraeg]

10pm 3rd September, 2nd New Zealand Division HQ.
“Hmmmph,” Freyberg harrumphed as he looked down at his map. This was going to be a bit of a bastard. He’d been ordered to strike south with his Division and try to interdict the German supply lines. Easier said than done. He’d have to keep at least some forces in place to protect his right wing just in case the Germans tried to disrupt his own attack. Well, he’d have to take a gamble and leave the 132nd Brigade, along with the 6th New Zealand. He wasn’t too happy with the British brigade, they were greener than grass. That said, Clifton’s 6th would provide some backbone. That left his two main brigades, 4th and 5th New Zealand. They were experienced veterans and Kippenberger was his best Brigadier. They also had the 8th Armoured brigade, which had just completed its move that afternoon.

The burly New Zealander smiled savagely. Apparently Horrocks had made it very clear to Brigadier Custance that he was to obey all orders from Freyberg, or else. There’d be none of the nonsense that they’d seen in July, with armoured formations swanning around on their own, failing to provide support and at times disobeying orders. The new chaps had made it bloody clear that there would be none of that, and he had to take his hat off to them. He’d respected the Auk, but it had become brutally clear at Gazala and beyond that there was something very wrong with the armoured doctrine of the tanks.

Well, no more. They’d attack in conjunction with the infantry. He traced a line on the map with his thumb. His staff was working on the orders now. They’d be able to call on the massed artillery of the Corps to obliterate any defences on the northern sides of the Muhafid and Munnassib Depressions. If they could occupy those positions, which seemed to be lightly held by Italian infantry, then they could disrupt the German supply lines to the south. Maybe, just maybe they could even move onto Himeimat. If they had the high ground there then they could cut the jerries in half. It would mean hard fighting though.

First things first – the depressions. He glanced at his watch. The artillery would be kicking things off before dawn.

[tchizek]

Very interesting! I love this TL so far.

[MikeTurcotte]

I guess the real question is impacts.

If the Afrika Korps is encircled and defeated by the British in Egypt, then Hitler may shrug, write off Africa (he was never THAT enthusiastic about it anyway - not until Rommel started winning, that is), and fortify Italy instead.

This may mean no Torch (or limited Torch), no Kasserine Pass, no Tunisian campaign. No experience for the US Army. No over commitment of limited German resources to an unwinnable area (Tunisia).

OTOH, if Guderian gets there, and manages to extricate the remains of the Afrika Korps, Hitler may double-down; assume the retreat was due to Rommel's death more than the logistics, port capacities and increased British material and skill. In that case, the Germans will be strained even more than IOTL, and lose bigger. In that case, the British will really hammer then, exposing Italy and the Southern flank.

If the BRITISH (as opposed to the 'Allies) win big enough, it may give Churchill enough juice with the Americans to forment his flank ideas about Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia and the like. That could actually be good for the Germans, and REALLY good for the Soviets...

Mike Turcotte

[Hyperion]

I don't realistically see the Allies storming into Greece or the Balkans.

That being said, the British would probably be supportive of a much more powerful and effective attack on Italy compared to OTL.

Keeping the US from getting a bloody nose and gaining experience could prove to be a real problem, but I could see more experienced British forces having more time to help train US units this time around.

[Simon]

One wonders what they'd do without enough petrol to retreat.Well, stationary tanks with no fuel make great targets for a start!

To quote one of my favourite war films The Beast of War,

Daskal:[the tank is incapacitated. Daskal hands out a grenade to Kaminski and Golikov] You know our standing orders.
Kaminski: What?
Daskal: Out of commission, become a pillbox. Out of ammo, become a bunker. Out of time, become heroes.

[ComradeTovarich]

TL's good, mate. Keep it up. Here's to the Allies reaching Berlin in Christmas '44 (or at least beating the Soviets to it).

Keeping the US from getting a bloody nose and gaining experience could prove to be a real problem, but I could see more experienced British forces having more time to help train US units this time around.

Even with more training, something like that would be inevitable. US troops gain easy victory, get cocky, rush headfirst into a trap that the British with their war weariness would have recognised a long time ago and get their rear-ends handed over to them. They could learn a thing or two from the school of terribly hard knocks.

[Cymraeg]

Noon, 4th September, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ, South of the Ragil Depression
The thunder to the North-West was starting to worry him now. Von Vaerst was using Rommel’s old command caravan, and the marks on the maps there were going from bad to worse. The retreat had started first thing in the morning and it was becoming brutally clear that the fuel shortage was going from bad to catastrophic.

The British armoured cars had had a good night based on the chaos that they had made of his supply lines. Almost no fuel had made it through and the water situation was almost as bad. They were scavenging what they could from some of the wrecked vehicles that they were passing, but it was thin pickings at best. To make matters worse they were also having problems with their trucks. A lot of them had been captured from the British – but now the supply of spare parts was drying up and more and more of them were dropping out.

It was the tanks that he was most worried about though. Many of them were running on fumes and those that had run their fuel tanks dry were being towed by others – which wasn’t very fuel efficient. He had a bad feeling that they’d have to abandon some and that thought made him feel ill.

So far things weren’t going too badly though. They’d disengaged from the enemy at Alam Halfa Ridge and were heading South East and East. The British weren’t following too quickly – they were being cautious, which was a relief. So far the 15th and 21st Panzer Divisions were heading down to the Ragil Depression, whilst the Italians were passing through 90th Light, which was holding in place to mask their movement. It was also conserving as much of its fuel as possible.

More thunder to the North West and Von Vaerst shifted his attention to the red marks that had started to appear there. Something was going on between the Munassib and Muhafid Depressions. Bayerlein was on the radio now, trying to find out more information. Judging by the white pallor of his face the news was not good.

“Sir,” Bayerlein called as he took the headphones off and placed them on the table, “We have some problems.” He strode over to the map. “It seems that the New Zealanders attacked south of their positions this morning.”

Von Vaerst felt himself pale. “Why didn’t we hear about this earlier on?”

“It would seem that the Italians were overwhelmed quite quickly and their commander was killed. They weren’t in as much strength as we’d been told on the North side of the Munassib and Muhafid Depressions. The Folgore were supposed to send troops to bolster the line, but they were caught in the open by the RAF.”

“Wasn’t the Ramcke Brigade supposed to be in the area?”

“Yes sir, but they were still in the open between the two depressions when they were hit by concentrated British shellfire. Then they were overrun by British tanks. Ramcke’s dead. What’s left of his men are being pushed south.”

Von Vaerst stared at the map. New Zealanders with non-suicidal British tank support. This was bad. “How far have they gotten to?”

“We have fragmentary reports of New Zealand units on the Southern rims of both of the depressions. We don’t know where the tanks are.”

“And the Italian armoured divisions?”

Bayerlein’s finger jabbed a point just to the north of the Western end of the Ragil Depression. “Ariete and Trieste are there. The Littorio are a little further to the East.”

“Damn it.” Von Vaerst whispered as he looked at the map. He should have detached the Italian armoured units hours earlier. Come to that, he should have ignored Hitler’s order on the 2nd and ordered the retreat then. “How many tanks do they have running?”

“Fewer than 100 of their M13/40s,” Bayerlein replied in a tired monotone. “They’re taking losses all the time from the British bombing.”

Wonderful, he was placing his trust on a bunch of obsolete Italian tanks. “Tell them to attack at once and keep the northern end of the corridor open. And get 90th Light moving. If they can bring pressure against the left flank of the New Zealanders we should be able to pin them in place.”

[Cymraeg]

I've still no idea where this is all coming from. I haven't written this much in a day for years. :D
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1pm 4th September, XIII Corps HQ South-West of Alam Halfa ridge
There seemed to be an awful lot of wrecked German tanks all over the place, Horrocks thought with a smile as he looked at the landscape in front of him. Every tank that the Germans couldn’t take away was one that would never be used against the British and Commonwealth forces, and that thought warmed the cockles of his heart.

He was feeling cautiously optimistic about the general situation. The Germans were retreating steadily and he was doing his best not to press them too hard. His armoured commanders, with the exception of Roberts, had all the enthusiasm of a group of over-excited puppies and were straining at the bit to be let loose on the Germans. He’d had to remind them about the German habit of using their 88mm guns to savage any tank that got into range.

No, he had to achieve the Goldilocks syndrome of pressing just enough to keep them moving but not enough to make their rearguard turn and fight. Not easy. Monty’s instructions that he was on no account to get mauled were still ringing in his head.

That said, the situation on his right flank was going better than he could have hoped for. Freyberg’s men had broken through the Italian defenders more easily then he could have predicted. He was still surprised by how few troops the enemy had in the area. If it had been him then he’d have gotten a blocking force into place before starting his retreat. Instead the Germans and Italians had done it the other way around, which was no way to fight a war. As a result Freyberg’s men and the RAF had caught the enemy in the open as they tried to form a line. There were even some reports that they’d crushed a force of German paratroopers.

If Freyberg could keep the pressure on, pushing south… he scratched his chin. “John,” he called out to his chief of staff. “I need to talk to the Army Commander. I want to find out if he’d let me transfer Roberts and his brigade to Freyberg as well.”

[Hyperion]

TL's good, mate. Keep it up. Here's to the Allies reaching Berlin in Christmas '44 (or at least beating the Soviets to it).



Even with more training, something like that would be inevitable. US troops gain easy victory, get cocky, rush headfirst into a trap that the British with their war weariness would have recognised a long time ago and get their rear-ends handed over to them. They could learn a thing or two from the school of terribly hard knocks.

With the Germans falling apart right now, and the British starting to get real momentum, I think at least for 1942 and well into 1943, this could give Churchill and senior British officers the leverage they need to dictate policy with the US.

Not that some US units aren't going to get a bloody nose or do something stupid, but they might not be too bad off if British officers are the ones giving them their ultimate orders for a while.

[Julian]

A landing in Greece wouldn't be very productive. The terrain isn't conductive for swift attacks against a quality opponent.

[PMN1]

OTOH, if Guderian gets there, and manages to extricate the remains of the Afrika Korps, Hitler may double-down; assume the retreat was due to Rommel's death more than the logistics, port capacities and increased British material and skill. In that case, the Germans will be strained even more than IOTL, and lose bigger. In that case, the British will really hammer then, exposing Italy and the Southern flank.



Which could still lead to Hitler reinforcing with troops who ultimately get captured as in the OTL.

[BlairWitch749]

interesting subject... (as one would expect me to think :-D)

Rommel indeed had several very close experiences that could have easily resulted in his death or capture

To answer posts from the previous page

Kesselring had already proved himself capable of handling ground forces; he took command of the Italian infantry divisions on the gazalla line when the africa korps was whipping the 8th army in the cauldron and was instrumental in the brilliant attack that cut off the 150th brigade and the free french brigade... given that he is in theater and has all the relationships with both high commands in place.... its logical he would temporarily be theater commander at least

In terms of Guderian... Rommel demanded that Guderian be sent to africa to replace himself whilst on sick leave just before 2nd alemein... Hitler replied that "Guderian is unacceptable"... meaning Guderian was still in the dog house... also, Guderian at this point was only 90ish days removed from stomach and heart surgery, I don't know if he was exactly up to the rigors of an active command in africa with bad food and water; (he didn't return to service for another 5 months after this point and it took the disaster at stalingrad for hitler to be willing to bring guderian back to active service

so other prossibilities

Manstein - Busy at Leningrad
Kleist and anyone in the south - Busy with case blue
Rundstedt - not suited for that campaign

the two logical choices

hermann balck - Currently commanding 11th panzer which at that point was in OKH reserve and not doing anything

walter model - Commanding 9th army which just absorbed an attack at Rhzev in august which they beat off with heavy losses; but is not currently doing anything

IMO Balck is too junior, you just had a field marshal killed and a field marshal must replace (otherwise its a political insult to the italians)... so if Kesselring doesn't take over the theater with Bayerlin or von Luck or someone commanding the africa corps, the next most logical step seems to be Model being brought in and promoted... now kluge might throw a shit fit over losing him and threaten resignation etc;

[Cymraeg]

interesting subject... (as one would expect me to think :-D)

Rommel indeed had several very close experiences that could have easily resulted in his death or capture

To answer posts from the previous page

Kesselring had already proved himself capable of handling ground forces; he took command of the Italian infantry divisions on the gazalla line when the africa korps was whipping the 8th army in the cauldron and was instrumental in the brilliant attack that cut off the 150th brigade and the free french brigade... given that he is in theater and has all the relationships with both high commands in place.... its logical he would temporarily be theater commander at least

In terms of Guderian... Rommel demanded that Guderian be sent to africa to replace himself whilst on sick leave just before 2nd alemein... Hitler replied that "Guderian is unacceptable"... meaning Guderian was still in the dog house... also, Guderian at this point was only 90ish days removed from stomach and heart surgery, I don't know if he was exactly up to the rigors of an active command in africa with bad food and water; (he didn't return to service for another 5 months after this point and it took the disaster at stalingrad for hitler to be willing to bring guderian back to active service

so other prossibilities

Manstein - Busy at Leningrad
Kleist and anyone in the south - Busy with case blue
Rundstedt - not suited for that campaign

the two logical choices

hermann balck - Currently commanding 11th panzer which at that point was in OKH reserve and not doing anything

walter model - Commanding 9th army which just absorbed an attack at Rhzev in august which they beat off with heavy losses; but is not currently doing anything

IMO Balck is too junior, you just had a field marshal killed and a field marshal must replace (otherwise its a political insult to the italians)... so if Kesselring doesn't take over the theater with Bayerlin or von Luck or someone commanding the africa corps, the next most logical step seems to be Model being brought in and promoted... now kluge might throw a shit fit over losing him and threaten resignation etc;

Hm, I didn't think about the political repercussions of Rommel's death. He was promoted to FM after capturing Tobruk, so I was thinking that his replacement had to be at least at the rank of Generaloberst.
The reason why I want Guderian in Africa however is that it widens the butterflies. If Guderian is appointed to a command in North Africa that means that he isn't on hand to be Inspector-General of Armoured Troops - so he can't rein in Hitler's sillier ideas.
I did think about Model as well, but I think it's still too soon after the attack at Rhzev and you're right - von Kluge would throw his toys out of the pram at the thought of losing Model.
As for Guderian's health I think it's on a knife edge if he'd be fit or not. He was tied to his honour - I think that he'd go if he was ordered. His appointment in Egypt might also be the final straw that breaks Halder's relationship with Hitler, which was about to collapse anyway.
Oh and Balck is still only a Generalleutnant in August 1942. I didn't know that he was in OKH Reserve.

[whatisinaname]

Really like this story, subscribed :)

My suggestions are either Hasso von Manteuffel or Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz von Gross-Zauche und Camminetz, prob both to junior in rank at this point though?

Edit: how about Gotthard Heinrici, as he took command of the fouth army in Jan 42, so he could be spared (as it is now Sept 42)?

[Julian]

Putting Model in Africa would be interesting, since Operatsiya Mars is right around the corner. Mars was a disaster anyways, but with someone less competatnt than Model in command the Soviets could feasibly achieve better results.

[Hyperion]

I would really hold off on a permanent replacement until the current battle is over.

Sending a Field Marshal might look good for political or propaganda reasons, but it might be a bit of a waste if the British end this current battle by capturing or destroying a large part of the Africa Korps.

Another stopgap possibility would be to promote Von Vaerst. Have someone higher up than a division level commander in charge, but if things look to be unraveling in North Africa, don't waste a more experienced officer.

Keep in mind in 1942, Hitler hasn't gone completely off the deep end, yet. Who knows, with Rommel dead, and the possibility of North Africa collapsing sooner than OTL, this might actually keep him somewhat more grounded to reality for a while longer.

[Cymraeg]

6pm, 4th September, 2nd New Zealand Division Tac HQ.
The Italians were retreating as Freyberg watched them carefully. They were retreating stubbornly, but they were retreating, wreathed in dust and smoke from the almost constant bombardments that had claimed half their numbers. He couldn't fault their bravery. They’d pressed their attack quite hard, concentrating their tanks and sending them at his positions in an armoured fist. Unfortunately for them his men had had enough time to get their anti-tank guns up, whilst the 8th Armoured brigade had appeared on their flank and poured their own fire into them. The Italian tanks hadn’t stood much of a chance. He made a note to get the commander of the Corps artillery a bottle of good single-malt whiskey. They’d responded to his requests for support so promptly and accurately that a lot of New Zealanders were talking about buying the gunners a lot of beer.

He consulted his map. Kippenberger’s boys were holding firm on his left flank along the Southern rim of the Muhafid Depression, whilst the 4th Brigade were pushing south of the Munassib Depression. He chewed his lower lip for a moment. From the clouds of dust that were being churned up to his South and South East, the Africa Corps weren’t too far away and he wanted 8th Brigade to stick close to his position instead of sending them haring across the desert to Himeimat. He wasn’t sure that they could get there. According to the armoured car chaps, namely the 4th/8th Hussars, who were now South West of Himeimat there was a lot of activity in the corridor as the soft-skinned tail of the Africa Corps scurried back Westwards.

Interestingly enough the Hussars had pointed out that a lot of trucks were being towed by others –which meant that the Bosche were even more short of petrol than he had thought. He paused. If he had more strength…

“Excuse me sir,” said a voice to one side and he turned to see his chief of staff. “Message from 8th Army Commander sir.”

Freyberg took the message and looked down at it, his eyebrows rising. Aha. Montgomery was ordering 50th Division, or what was left of it after it had been walloped at Gazala, to come into the line to replace his remaining brigades to the North. Excellent, that meant that his Division could start punching its weight. He was also sending two more battalions of 6-pounder anti-tank guns. That was just as excellent, as long as they could get to his positions in time.

He looked at the map again. His old friendly enemies 90th Light was supposed to be to the east somewhere. If he could hold them at bay with a reinforced 5th Brigade whilst pushing south with at least three brigades then perhaps he could free up the armour that was supposed to arrive soon and push for Himeimat after all. He could certainly constrict the German retreat enough to maul them severely.

“Brigadier Roberts just arrived as well. He’s waiting outside.”

Pip had pulled his finger out then. Good. Nodding fiercely Freyberg smiled. “Send him in. I think we’ve got the buggers.”

[Cymraeg]

I would really hold off on a permanent replacement until the current battle is over.

Sending a Field Marshal might look good for political or propaganda reasons, but it might be a bit of a waste if the British end this current battle by capturing or destroying a large part of the Africa Korps.

Another stopgap possibility would be to promote Von Vaerst. Have someone higher up than a division level commander in charge, but if things look to be unraveling in North Africa, don't waste a more experienced officer.

Keep in mind in 1942, Hitler hasn't gone completely off the deep end, yet. Who knows, with Rommel dead, and the possibility of North Africa collapsing sooner than OTL, this might actually keep him somewhat more grounded to reality for a while longer.

If von Vaerst survives that is... :D

[Hyperion]

If von Vaerst survives that is... :D

Indeed. If he manages to get the army away from Monty, he will be considered a minor hero for a while.

OTOH, if he screws up and looses the Africa Korps to destruction and capture, Hitler or someone else can use him as the perfect scapegoat, and protect their other officers for other jobs.

[Cymraeg]

12.10am 5th September, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ, West of the Ragil Depression
The bombers were back again. Von Vaerst could hear them droning overhead as they ploughed the ground to the West with yet more bombs. And somewhere out there, even further West, the British armoured cars were at work again, causing yet more havoc in his supply lines. Almost nothing was getting through now and he could feel icy tentacle of dread curling around his heart.

He looked around the table at the grim-faced men who surrounded it. They looked as bad as he felt. Oberst Lungerhausen, the acting commander of 21st Panzer looked the worst. He was gaunt-faced and hollow-eyed. Crasemann, in acting command of 15th Panzer looked almost as bad. Kleemann of the 90th Light seemed stunned. As for De Stefanis… the fire had gone out from behind his eyes. Von Vaerst had known that he’d asked the Italian XXth Motorised Corps to carry out a difficult task, but he hadn’t forseen such a hideous casualty bill. And they hadn’t succeeded. Bayerlein stood further back, with von Mellenthin next to him. The latter didn’t look well.

“Gentlemen,” he said quietly. “We face a very difficult situation. Our fuel state is nothing less than catastrophic, we are still in enemy territory, we are under almost constant aerial and artillery bombardment and we have enemy forces massing to the north of our only line of escape. I have brought you here to explain my intentions for the remainder of the battle.”

He gestured at the map on the table. “This is our best approximation of the current situation. British infantry and armoured formations are following our retreat to the East and North East. Light forces are still interdicting our supply lines to the West. These forces are not truly threatening however.”

His finger jabbed at the map. “No, the real threat is to the North. The New Zealanders attacked early in the morning and pushed a significant distance South, supported by an armoured formation, suspected to be 8th Armoured Brigade. They were ably supported by air and artillery – something that we have become uncomfortably familiar with over the past few days. Ramcke’s Brigade of Fallschirmjäger was caught in the open and was… very roughly handled. Ramcke was killed in the process.

“Our efforts at holding the New Zealanders back were… not as successful as we could have hoped. XX Corps has been badly mauled. And just before sundown their right hand brigade pushed south to a position just five miles North of Himeimat. According to the Luftwaffe as least one additional brigade of armour has joined them, and there are indications of further formations on the move as well.”

He leant forwards over the map. “I think that we can predict a strong attack from the North against Himeimat tomorrow. The question is – can we repel it?”

The assembled officers stirred slightly and looked at each other. “We are very low on fuel, sir,” Kleemann pointed out. “My division consumed almost half its reserves this afternoon just moving ten miles. That damned soft sand is burning up fuel almost as fast as we can pour it into the fuel tanks.”

“Many of my tanks are running on fumes at best, sir,” rumbled Crasemann. “Some are even towing others that have run out of fuel. All are short on ammunition and water. The water is the thing I’m most concerned about. Heatstroke cases have doubled. We’re short of everything.”

“I am aware of that,” von Vaerst replied, keeping tight control of his temper. “What I am asking is can we hold them off and complete our withdrawal?”

“Possibly, sir,” Bayerlein said hesitantly. “If they do attack though, our tanks won’t be able to manoeuvre worth a damn.”

Von Vaerst looked down at the map again, imagining the men behind the symbols on the map, the men trying to sleep in the inferno outside, the men worrying about the dangerously low levels of their fuel gauges, the men whose lips were dry and peeling from lack of water. And the other men, who were desperately trying to get supplies through to them.

“Whatever happens in the morning,” he said quietly, “We have to keep the route to the West open.”

[BlairWitch749]

If von Vaerst survives that is... :D

A new division commander being given command of the entire panzer army africa seems a bit of a stretch (more so than hand waiving guderian's release from the dog house or health)... Kesselring or someone of suitable authority would have to be appointed to command the army (someone who has a larger hq in particular)... even if there was some delay in bringing in a replacement; it's more likely that one of the africa corps long time staffers (bayerlin, gause or westphal) would temporarily exercise authority over the german formations since they where tied in with all the staff links and already briefed on high command's intentions

[Cymraeg]

A new division commander being given command of the entire panzer army africa seems a bit of a stretch (more so than hand waiving guderian's release from the dog house or health)... Kesselring or someone of suitable authority would have to be appointed to command the army (someone who has a larger hq in particular)... even if there was some delay in bringing in a replacement; it's more likely that one of the africa corps long time staffers (bayerlin, gause or westphal) would temporarily exercise authority over the german formations since they where tied in with all the staff links and already briefed on high command's intentions

I've just been checking my copy of Panzer Commander (a great book, but I'm very suspicious of what Guderian leaves out). Guderian didn't fall ill until November 1942, or rather he didn't collapse until then. I think he'd have been in more or less ok shape at the start of September. The question is what it would have taken to release him from the doghouse - perhaps a bad situation in Egypt? I agree that Kesselring would be appointed as a stopgap. But I also think that Hitler would have had to appoint someone of reasonably high reputation. The more I think about it, the more I think that Guderian would have been a viable candidate.

[Hyperion]

A new division commander being given command of the entire panzer army africa seems a bit of a stretch (more so than hand waiving guderian's release from the dog house or health)... Kesselring or someone of suitable authority would have to be appointed to command the army (someone who has a larger hq in particular)... even if there was some delay in bringing in a replacement; it's more likely that one of the africa corps long time staffers (bayerlin, gause or westphal) would temporarily exercise authority over the german formations since they where tied in with all the staff links and already briefed on high command's intentions

Who else was actually at Alam Halfa? My understanding of the timeline, which makes sense so far, is that Von Vaerst is in charge mainly because he is currently the senior surviving general officer present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_von_Vaerst

During the OTL Battle of Alam Halfa, Vaerst was given command of the Afrika Korps when general Nehring was injured.

If Rommel is dead, and taking into account the possibility that other field commanders could also be captured or killed at Alam Halfa if the battle continues as it has, having Von Vaerst taking over for all of 3 days until someone higher up can be brought in is not unreasonable.

As for a replacement at all, again, if this battle turns out as bad as it looks, appointing a new bigwig isn't going to matter much of the German divisions in North Africa are destroyed.

[BlairWitch749]

I've just been checking my copy of Panzer Commander (a great book, but I'm very suspicious of what Guderian leaves out). Guderian didn't fall ill until November 1942, or rather he didn't collapse until then. I think he'd have been in more or less ok shape at the start of September. The question is what it would have taken to release him from the doghouse - perhaps a bad situation in Egypt? I agree that Kesselring would be appointed as a stopgap. But I also think that Hitler would have had to appoint someone of reasonably high reputation. The more I think about it, the more I think that Guderian would have been a viable candidate.

I don't have an issue handwaiving his health (it's a minor nitpick anyway)... in terms of the doghouse, maybe it might be more plausible to juggle the POD a little bit; in otl it was the shock of the disaster at stalingrad, that made hitler swallow his pride, admit his mistake and whore himself out to guderian... Rommel's death might not be enough to bring out a similar effect HOWEVER if the panzer army africa was consumed in the super Alemein you have brewing here that might be enough for him to at least entertain the idea and get off of his historical july 1942 "guderian is unacceptable"

[BlairWitch749]

Who else was actually at Alam Halfa? My understanding of the timeline, which makes sense so far, is that Von Vaerst is in charge mainly because he is currently the senior surviving general officer present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_von_Vaerst

During the OTL Battle of Alam Halfa, Vaerst was given command of the Afrika Korps when general Nehring was injured.

If Rommel is dead, and taking into account the possibility that other field commanders could also be captured or killed at Alam Halfa if the battle continues as it has, having Von Vaerst taking over for all of 3 days until someone higher up can be brought in is not unreasonable.

As for a replacement at all, again, if this battle turns out as bad as it looks, appointing a new bigwig isn't going to matter much of the German divisions in North Africa are destroyed.


There is a difference between Vaerst taking over the "africa corps" which had the strength of 3ish divisions; versus Vaerst taking over the "panzer army africa" which includes all the italian formations and strategic direction of all ground forces... just too junior on the totem poll

The perogitive (at least temporarily) would have to go to Kesselring who is in theater and intimately familiar with the Italian and DAK staff officers... Kesselring might not be inclined to put Vaerst in charge of the africa corps, and instead appoint one of his own staff members or someone to his likeing (probably westphal who later became kesselring's chief of staff in italy and france)

Going back to Model for one second... the one thing beyond his propaganda and actual tactical skill that speaks to perhaps allowing him to be released from russia is that he had really good corps commanders under him (arnim, hilpert and fretter-pico to just name the ones who rose to army level/army group level command) and any one of them would have been qualified to take over 9th army

[Hyperion]

There is a difference between Vaerst taking over the "africa corps" which had the strength of 3ish divisions; versus Vaerst taking over the "panzer army africa" which includes all the italian formations and strategic direction of all ground forces... just too junior on the totem poll

The perogitive (at least temporarily) would have to go to Kesselring who is in theater and intimately familiar with the Italian and DAK staff officers... Kesselring might not be inclined to put Vaerst in charge of the africa corps, and instead appoint one of his own staff members or someone to his likeing (probably westphal who later became kesselring's chief of staff in italy and france)

Going back to Model for one second... the one thing beyond his propaganda and actual tactical skill that speaks to perhaps allowing him to be released from russia is that he had really good corps commanders under him (arnim, hilpert and fretter-pico to just name the ones who rose to army level/army group level command) and any one of them would have been qualified to take over 9th army

Your looking too deep into this Blair.

Kesselring may be a logical commander overall.

IS HE AT ALAM HALFA, or HOW SOON CAN HE GET TO ALAM HALFA.

For whatever weaknesses or other faults Von Vaerst may have, he IS at Alam Halfa, Kesselring is not.

This timeline is so far focusing mainly on the battle, and Kesselring isn't taking part in the battle.

I'm not saying your idea is wrong, but I don't see Kesselring, or any other replacement really mattering with a darn if this battle results in the destruction of the army.

[BlairWitch749]

Your looking too deep into this Blair.

Kesselring may be a logical commander overall.

IS HE AT ALAM HALFA, or HOW SOON CAN HE GET TO ALAM HALFA.

For whatever weaknesses or other faults Von Vaerst may have, he IS at Alam Halfa, Kesselring is not.

This timeline is so far focusing mainly on the battle, and Kesselring isn't taking part in the battle.

I'm not saying your idea is wrong, but I don't see Kesselring, or any other replacement really mattering with a darn if this battle results in the destruction of the army.

he is the closest senior officer of rank... I think at the date chosen he chilling around mersah matruh and was consulting face to face with rommel almost daily

i would imagine he could be at panzer army africa hq within less than 8 hours after rommel's death... his hq would likely receive panic signals from panzer army africa hq asking him to come and establish control or appoint someone with the staff acting under westphals direction until told otherwise (they always put westphal in charge whenever rommel would get lost or go on one of his visits to the front without his radio truck)

[Hyperion]

he is the closest senior officer of rank... I think at the date chosen he chilling around mersah matruh and was consulting face to face with rommel almost daily

i would imagine he could be at panzer army africa hq within less than 8 hours after rommel's death... his hq would likely receive panic signals from panzer army africa hq asking him to come and establish control or appoint someone with the staff acting under westphals direction until told otherwise (they always put westphal in charge whenever rommel would get lost or go on one of his visits to the front without his radio truck)

I think your research is faulty.

Rommel was at the front as in OTL, and this time he was killed.

Yet you say he as also at Mersa Matruh talking face to face daily with Kesselring?

WTF?

Most everything I've been able to find suggests he was in Italy. You do know this is in September of 1942, don't you?

Edit:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_El_Alamein#Battle_of_Mersa_Matruh

Mesra Matruh was July 1-27 of 1942. This is taking place well over a month from that battle.

Everything I've seen suggests Kesselring is in Italy dealing with both North Africa and looking at dealing with Malta.

I would have one question also. As Kesselring is a Luftwaffe officer, how good will he do commanding the troops at Alam Halfa?

[BlairWitch749]

I think your research is faulty.

Rommel was at the front as in OTL, and this time he was killed.

Yet you say he as also at Mersa Matruh talking face to face daily with Kesselring?

WTF?

Most everything I've been able to find suggests he was in Italy. You do know this is in September of 1942, don't you?

Edit:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_El_Alamein#Battle_of_Mersa_Matruh

Mesra Matruh was July 1-27 of 1942. This is taking place well over a month from that battle.

Everything I've seen suggests Kesselring is in Italy dealing with both North Africa and looking at dealing with Malta.

I would have one question also. As Kesselring is a Luftwaffe officer, how good will he do commanding the troops at Alam Halfa?

Rommel was driving back and Kesselring driving forward for conferences with Bastico and others; at that particular date I believe he was close by; but even if he was back in Naples or Rome on that date; he could land at Matruh in an HE-111 and then drive forward to the front within 12-16 hours; certainly faster and with more authority than any other officer at that point

The Malta stuff was all earlier; the air blitz had been wound down after gazalla

Kesselring was an extremely competent commander, and he had commanded line forces during the gazalla battle; he was also in the army prior to being in the lw and was more or less invested with hitler's full confidence... hitler could do a lot worse in his pick

[Hyperion]

Rommel was driving back and Kesselring driving forward for conferences with Bastico and others; at that particular date I believe he was close by; but even if he was back in Naples or Rome on that date; he could land at Matruh in an HE-111 and then drive forward to the front within 12-16 hours; certainly faster and with more authority than any other officer at that point

The Malta stuff was all earlier; the air blitz had been wound down after gazalla

Kesselring was an extremely competent commander, and he had commanded line forces during the gazalla battle; he was also in the army prior to being in the lw and was more or less invested with hitler's full confidence... hitler could do a lot worse in his pick

All of my research suggests that your information is faulty.

I looked up Bastico, and by this time, his only authority was over the Italian troops in Libya, no power over forces in Egypt. I don't see what he would need to talk to Rommel in Egypt for. A lot of your information seems to be inaccurate or faulty.

[BlairWitch749]

All of my research suggests that your information is faulty.

I looked up Bastico, and by this time, his only authority was over the Italian troops in Libya, no power over forces in Egypt. I don't see what he would need to talk to Rommel in Egypt for. A lot of your information seems to be inaccurate or faulty.

Ettore Bastico was supreme commander of Italian forces in the theater (title cic of Italian forces in north africa, so all italian formations even those rommel exercised tactical control of where his); he was Rommel's nominal superior

http://img309.imageshack.us/img309/7665/rommelramonsbf7aa.jpg



functionally what you suggested would be like monty not needing to meet with ike :)

[Hyperion]

Ettore Bastico was supreme commander of Italian forces in the theater (title cic of Italian forces in north africa, so all italian formations even those rommel exercised tactical control of where his); he was Rommel's nominal superior

http://img309.imageshack.us/img309/7665/rommelramonsbf7aa.jpg



functionally what you suggested would be like monty not needing to meet with ike :)

Yeah you really haven't done good research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettore_Bastico

He was promoted to the position you mentioned in 1941.

In 1942, he was demoted to only having control over troops in Libya.

His replacement for forces dealing with Egypt was Ugo Cavallero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugo_Cavallero

[Cymraeg]

I've been consulting my books (El Alamein by Lord Carver and The Crucible of War 3 - Montgomery and Alamein by Barrie Pitt) and both say that Rommel met Kesselring in person on the evening of Sept. 2nd at Jebel Kalakh. The thing is I can't find a reference as to where Kesselring came in from. ITTL I have Rommel being killed on the morning of the 2nd before he can decide that the attack has to be called off. Given the inevitable fog of war and the shock of his death, that would have given rise to a lot of confusion. He was quite close to Alam Halfa ridge as well. I agree that it's a slight jump for von Vaerst to command the entire Panzer army, but if he was in temporary charge of the Afrika Korps IOTL during the battle I don't think it would be too much of a stretch given the chaotic nature of the battle. He also knows the circumstances on the ground. Given the fast-moving situation and the difficulty of getting to PZA HQ, plus the fact that Kesselring was working desperately to try and get petrol to Rommel's forces, I don't think that it's entirely feasible for Smiling Albert to take command.

[BlairWitch749]

Yeah you really haven't done good research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettore_Bastico

He was promoted to the position you mentioned in 1941.

In 1942, he was demoted to only having control over troops in Libya.

His replacement for forces dealing with Egypt was Ugo Cavallero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugo_Cavallero

cavallero was chief of staff to the entire army

wiki is not a reliable source; do you notice that the entire bastico article is unsourced?...as cymraeg points out kesselring was coming in (bastico was at that same conference I believe) for rommel to bitch him out for infecting high command with his mindless optimisum

kesselring's response to rommel telling him the front was in desperate shape and that the high command order to fight to the last was asb was priceless

"you should treat the stand and fight order as advice, not an order":D
one can bet smiling albert had a heathy grin with that little piece of wisdom being thrown out there

[BlairWitch749]

I've been consulting my books (El Alamein by Lord Carver and The Crucible of War 3 - Montgomery and Alamein by Barrie Pitt) and both say that Rommel met Kesselring in person on the evening of Sept. 2nd at Jebel Kalakh. The thing is I can't find a reference as to where Kesselring came in from. ITTL I have Rommel being killed on the morning of the 2nd before he can decide that the attack has to be called off. Given the inevitable fog of war and the shock of his death, that would have given rise to a lot of confusion. He was quite close to Alam Halfa ridge as well. I agree that it's a slight jump for von Vaerst to command the entire Panzer army, but if he was in temporary charge of the Afrika Korps IOTL during the battle I don't think it would be too much of a stretch given the chaotic nature of the battle. He also knows the circumstances on the ground. Given the fast-moving situation and the difficulty of getting to PZA HQ, plus the fact that Kesselring was working desperately to try and get petrol to Rommel's forces, I don't think that it's entirely feasible for Smiling Albert to take command.

I don't disagree that there might not be up to a day where Kesselring isn't at that HQ; due to having to seek approval from high command and putting his own staff in order to work without him temporarily... the panic signals would be something along the lines of rommel is dead, request you come to pazner army hq immediately, westphal issuing orders to panzer army until advised otherwise or superior german officer arrives at panzer army hq... they had a lot of practice with this

[Julian]

Again having Model take over would be more interesting than Guederian in my personal opinion, mainly because his absence on the Eastern Front may have some effect there as well.

[Cymraeg]

Noon, 5th September, 2nd New Zealand Tac HQ, South of the Munassib Depression
That bloody hill was taunting him, thought Freyberg as he glared at Himeimat. They were stuck three miles from the bloody thing and he was afraid to get too aggressive. The German defences had thickened up to his South and they were doing their damnedest to stop his chaps from getting any closer to their line of retreat.

He smiled savagely. That said, his men were giving a lot more than they were getting. 90th Light, who the New Zealanders had been fighting on and off for some time now, had made an ill-considered effort at unhinging his left flank. They’d moved too slowly – his reinforcements had been up by then along with their 6-pounders - and the German formation had been forced to retreat in some disarray to the East, which would add to their problems. The Italians had even made another effort to drive the New Zealanders to the North, but that had turned out the same way that their previous attack had – a very bloody failure.

He looked up as the heaviest bombardment of the day started to the South. The gunners had to be exhausted but they were still servicing their guns with great speed and accuracy. And by the throb of engines to the East the flyboys were forming up for yet another raid on the increasingly disorganised German formations North and South of Himeimat. From the reports he was getting more and more German vehicles were down to their last gasp of fuel. More than a few of the funeral pyres on the horizon were from German tanks that couldn’t move on their own any more, or be towed due to a lack of a towing vehicle. They either made excellent targets for the RAF or they were being blown up by their own crews.

Raising his binoculars he glared at the German lines. Excellent, the artillery was reaping a fine harvest of chaos. Right, time to throw the dice. “Tell Roberts and Inglis to start moving.”

[Cymraeg]

Again having Model take over would be more interesting than Guederian in my personal opinion, mainly because his absence on the Eastern Front may have some effect there as well.

I did think quite hard about Model taking over, but I had to go with Guderian for a number of reasons - this way he'll never be inspector-general of armoured forces, so Hitler won't have a degree of sanity imposed of his Panzer types (Guderian was able to stop the multiplication of types and variants that would have made life a nightmare for the panzer supply people) and he certainly won't command the General Staff.

[Julian]

I did think quite hard about Model taking over, but I had to go with Guderian for a number of reasons - this way he'll never be inspector-general of armored forces, so Hitler won't have a degree of sanity imposed of his Panzer types (Guderian was able to stop the multiplication of types and variants that would have made life a nightmare for the Panzer supply people) and he certainly won't command the General Staff.

Indeed, that's a rather interesting difference. The problem I see is that Guderian is still disliked by Hitler and recovering from some major surgery. Combined those factors don't make him the first choice to take command. Though I suppose Model wouldn't be the first choice either because of the activity in the Rzhev Salient. Kesselring would probably be the most logical choice at a later date after the immediate battle has ended and the situation has become less chaotic. He's close to the front, has experience, is well known and respected by the men there, and is recognized by Hitler as a quality ground commander.

[Cymraeg]

Indeed, that's a rather interesting difference. The problem I see is that Guderian is still disliked by Hitler and recovering from some major surgery. Combined those factors don't make him the first choice to take command. Though I suppose Model wouldn't be the first choice either because of the activity in the Rzhev Salient. Kesselring would probably be the most logical choice at a later date after the immediate battle has ended and the situation has become less chaotic. He's close to the front, has experience, is well known and respected by the men there, and is recognized by Hitler as a quality ground commander.

I checked my copy of Panzer Leader, Guderian's book, last night and again today. He didn't really fall ill until November 1942, when he collapsed and had to have surgery (Panzer Leader p274). Prior to that he spent a month at a spa in Badenweiler in March-April 1942. His wife had blood poisoning in late April, so he nursed her for several months after that, and they then decided to buy some land and retire near Lake Constance (He was told that Hitler did not approve of living in South Germany so they ended up in Prussia).
This did surprise me - I thought that he was ill in August-September.

[Julian]

I checked my copy of Panzer Leader, Guderian's book, last night and again today. He didn't really fall ill until November 1942, when he collapsed and had to have surgery (Panzer Leader p274). Prior to that he spent a month at a spa in Badenweiler in March-April 1942. His wife had blood poisoning in late April, so he nursed her for several months after that, and they then decided to buy some land and retire near Lake Constance (He was told that Hitler did not approve of living in South Germany so they ended up in Prussia).
This did surprise me - I thought that he was ill in August-September.

I did not realize that.

[BlairWitch749]

I checked my copy of Panzer Leader, Guderian's book, last night and again today. He didn't really fall ill until November 1942, when he collapsed and had to have surgery (Panzer Leader p274). Prior to that he spent a month at a spa in Badenweiler in March-April 1942. His wife had blood poisoning in late April, so he nursed her for several months after that, and they then decided to buy some land and retire near Lake Constance (He was told that Hitler did not approve of living in South Germany so they ended up in Prussia).
This did surprise me - I thought that he was ill in August-September.

Didn't he have two different illnesses during his period in exile? One stomach related and one heart related... I seem to recall he was on doctor ordered bed rest for a long period of time (that may have been over the winter though)... regardless no objections here to waiving on Guderian's health

However I have two ideas that your pod brings up

1. How quickly can guderian come back to command... Hitler didn't just recall him in otl, he sent his butt boy schmundt (hitler's military laison and a buddy of Guderian's for many years) to sound out Guderian to see if he was willing to come on active service and to see if he was healthy enough (in march 1943 he was healthy enough for an administrative job; admittedly high stress with medium amounts of travel; but probably less stressful than a fucked up command in africa with bad food and water and little opportunity to sleep)... I have the feeling that even if Hitler came to this choice, it would take some time to work itself out which even more speaks to the need for kesselring to take temporary command of the panzer army

2. This has very interesting butterflies for stalingrad if the panzer army is consumed in the super alemein; hitler might decide africa is a lost cause and not committ the reserves on hand to counter monty and or torch (torch possibly being cancelled if the panzer army is destroyed); this would give him considerably more options to possibly relieve stalingrad... also if he has suffered the disaster of losing at super alemein due to his idiotic stand a die orders it might give him cut and run impulses when the 6th army is surrounded

[Julian]

Damn, beat me to it. I was about to say that Guderian isn't in Hitler's good books yet and wouldn't be brought back right away.

[Cymraeg]

Didn't he have two different illnesses during his period in exile? One stomach related and one heart related... I seem to recall he was on doctor ordered bed rest for a long period of time (that may have been over the winter though)... regardless no objections here to waiving on Guderian's health

However I have two ideas that your pod brings up

1. How quickly can guderian come back to command... Hitler didn't just recall him in otl, he sent his butt boy schmundt (hitler's military laison and a buddy of Guderian's for many years) to sound out Guderian to see if he was willing to come on active service and to see if he was healthy enough (in march 1943 he was healthy enough for an administrative job; admittedly high stress with medium amounts of travel; but probably less stressful than a fucked up command in africa with bad food and water and little opportunity to sleep)... I have the feeling that even if Hitler came to this choice, it would take some time to work itself out which even more speaks to the need for kesselring to take temporary command of the panzer army

2. This has very interesting butterflies for stalingrad if the panzer army is consumed in the super alemein; hitler might decide africa is a lost cause and not committ the reserves on hand to counter monty and or torch (torch possibly being cancelled if the panzer army is destroyed); this would give him considerably more options to possibly relieve stalingrad... also if he has suffered the disaster of losing at super alemein due to his idiotic stand a die orders it might give him cut and run impulses when the 6th army is surrounded

I'm re-thumbing my way through Panzer Leader again and discovering a lot of surprises. According to Guderian he received a phone call on February 17th, 1943 to ask if he would be willing to go to Vinnitsa to meet Hitler. He arrived on the 19th, and saw Schmundt on the morning of the 20th. They spent 2 hours having a whinge about the state of the panzers and hammering out a deal for Guderian's position and he then met Hitler at 3.15pm that afternoon.
Now like you I thought that all this took place over a longer time period. By Feb 28th Guderian had a draft of his full duties and on March 3rd he was talking to Goebbels as Inspector-General of Armoured Troops. That's faster than I thought it was.

[Cymraeg]

Damn, beat me to it. I was about to say that Guderian isn't in Hitler's good books yet and wouldn't be brought back right away.

If I can write it properly, I think that Hitler will find that needs must when the devil vomits into your kettle, to quote a certain Edmund Blackadder.

[Julian]

If I can write it properly, I think that Hitler will find that needs must when the devil vomits into your kettle, to quote a certain Edmund Blackadder.

I dunno, Hitler was pretty irrational about those sort of things. Plus he has Kesselring someone he trust a lot more and who's on the scene as an alternative.

[Cymraeg]

4pm 5th September, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ, East of Himeimat
“Damn it!” Von Vaerst lowered his binoculars and pounded his fist against the side of his Mark III. “What happened to our defences there?”

“We had a line of 88mm guns sir,” Bayerlein replied. “But there were only 8 of them – all that we could scrape up at such short notice. They engaged the British tanks and destroyed three of them, but then they pulled back and hit them with artillery fire that destroyed half of them and caused severe casualties. Then they were hit by bombers. By the time that the crews were back out of their slit trenches it was too late – the British had brought up their tanks again and lorried infantry.”

Von Vaerst ran a hand over his stubbled chin. He hadn’t been able to even shave that morning – he’d had too much to do. The retreat was not going well. Although 21st Panzer was moving well south of Himeimat it had taken yet more losses from the almost constant bombing. The only good thing was that it had, in the process, been able to scatter the thrice-damned British armoured cars from their supply lines. Not that a lot was coming East at all now – the losses in lorries had been appalling. However, the division was almost safe, although he was getting worried about the amount of congestion in the safe corridors through the British minefields. And that was the good news.

The bad news was that 15th Panzer’s line of retreat lay North of Himeimat – which the New Zealanders were now very close to. They’d already inflicted savage losses to the divisions soft-skinned vehicles and seemed to be rushing up anti-tank guns. He had no choice but to attack. They didn’t have the petrol to divert to the South. He wished that he had more information about what the hell was happening to his North-East. He knew that 90th Light had failed in their efforts to stop the New Zealanders and that the Italians had been mauled again, but he hadn’t had an update for several hours. From the mutter of artillery he had a bad feeling that all was not well there.

Anyway, it didn’t matter a damn what was going on to the North East if they didn’t have a line of retreat to the East. He looked at the dust on the horizon to the West. The sun was starting to lower in the sky and he cursed its light in his eyes. “How many runners do we have?”

“Twenty tanks sir. All Mark IIIs.”

He looked at Bayerlein, startled. “No more than that? And what about the Mark IVs?”

Bayerlein shook his head. “Destroyed or out of fuel sir.”

Damn. Well, it couldn’t be helped. It was a shame that he couldn’t call a stuka strike down on the New Zealanders – there wasn’t enough time and besides he knew that they’d suffered substantial losses themselves. “Then we attack with what we have.”

[Deckhand]

I love this timeline. This has to be the best desert timeline written on this site.

[Cymraeg]

I love this timeline. This has to be the best desert timeline written on this site.

Thank you - I'm doing my best! :D

[Hyperion]

So if I'm reading this right, the 21st Panzer, or whatever is left of it might be able to retreat and live to fight another day, less a lot of their tanks and equipment.

But the 15th Panzer and 90th Light, along with a number of Italian units could be lost outright if the 8th Army does things right.

[Cymraeg]

So if I'm reading this right, the 21st Panzer, or whatever is left of it might be able to retreat and live to fight another day, less a lot of their tanks and equipment.

But the 15th Panzer and 90th Light, along with a number of Italian units could be lost outright if the 8th Army does things right.

I looked at the map a lot today and did some thinking. I just don't think that Freyberg and his New Zealanders, even with armoured help, could have closed the door all the way. Mauled the Africa Corps, yes, even cut parts off thanks to the fuel shortage, but not be able to go all the way to the Qatarra Depression. Then I saw where 90th Light and the Italians were. Ouch.

[Tyg]

I looked at the map a lot today and did some thinking. I just don't think that Freyberg and his New Zealanders, even with armoured help, could have closed the door all the way. Mauled the Africa Corps, yes, even cut parts off thanks to the fuel shortage, but not be able to go all the way to the Qatarra Depression. Then I saw where 90th Light and the Italians were. Ouch.

This might be a lot to ask, but is there a good map of the battlefield somewhere? The wiki map was a little unhelpful in plotting out positions.

[Cymraeg]

http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/Maps/alamhalfa_map.jpg (http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/Maps/alamhalfa_map.jpg)
Hopefully this will work. I've seen a few variations on iot, including one that has the 21st Panzer further East.

[Hyperion]

So the Panzer divisions have a good chance of getting away, albeit without a lot of equipment, but 90th Light and a lot of the Italians are still in real danger.

[Cymraeg]

So the Panzer divisions have a good chance of getting away, albeit without a lot of equipment, but 90th Light and a lot of the Italians are still in real danger.

21st Panzer should be fine, but has taken moderate losses. 15th Panzer is a different story. Severe losses. DAK started off at the beginning of Alam Halfa with 200 tanks, and Italians with 240-odd. When Rommel called off the attack IOTL they were down to 150 Panzers. What with more failed attacks on Alam Halfa ridge ITTL, the continued bombing and shelling and the by now severe shortage of petrol I'd say that the DAK will be lucky to get away with 75, and that's erring on the side of generosity. As for the Italians, I looked at the Wiki entry for the M13/40 and then blinked a lot. Mobile coffins.

[jmc247]

Didn't he have two different illnesses during his period in exile? One stomach related and one heart related... I seem to recall he was on doctor ordered bed rest for a long period of time (that may have been over the winter though)... regardless no objections here to waiving on Guderian's health

However I have two ideas that your pod brings up

1. How quickly can guderian come back to command... Hitler didn't just recall him in otl, he sent his butt boy schmundt (hitler's military laison and a buddy of Guderian's for many years) to sound out Guderian to see if he was willing to come on active service and to see if he was healthy enough (in march 1943 he was healthy enough for an administrative job; admittedly high stress with medium amounts of travel; but probably less stressful than a fucked up command in africa with bad food and water and little opportunity to sleep)... I have the feeling that even if Hitler came to this choice, it would take some time to work itself out which even more speaks to the need for kesselring to take temporary command of the panzer army

2. This has very interesting butterflies for stalingrad if the panzer army is consumed in the super alemein; hitler might decide africa is a lost cause and not committ the reserves on hand to counter monty and or torch (torch possibly being cancelled if the panzer army is destroyed); this would give him considerably more options to possibly relieve stalingrad... also if he has suffered the disaster of losing at super alemein due to his idiotic stand a die orders it might give him cut and run impulses when the 6th army is surrounded

An early defeat of Axis forces in Africa also could make the Anglo-Americans cocky and decide on a 1943 attack on France which would have a much higher chance of failure then the 1944 attack in the origional timeline.

[Cymraeg]

11.30pm 5th September, 90th Light Division HQ, South East of the Muhafid Depression
Kleemann felt distinctly light-headed as he stood in his tent and looked at the shattered men around him. At least it was night and the heat was gone. The thirst was still there though. The last of the water was being shared out.

His battalion commanders were now a mixed bag of majors and even one captain. Battalions in name only that is. They’d taken severe losses and they’d had nothing to show for it. Their efforts at stopping the New Zealanders had failed – they’d been reinforced with anti-tank guns – and after that they’d been shelled into retreat, a retreat hastened by that attack by cautious but persistent British tanks. The problem was that they’d been forced South-East, into the remnants of the XX Corps.

As for the Italians… de Stefanis was dead. La Ferla had taken over, but he had almost nothing left to command. He couldn’t fault the courage of the Italians, he’d seen the shattered hulks that showed the graveyard of their attacks… but once again the British anti-tank guns had done their dreadful work, along with their artillery.

There was almost no fuel left to get back to the breaks in the British minefields, let alone the Axis lines. The soft sand that wasn’t supposed to be there had sapped the strength right out of his units. Ammunition was in short supply. And there was no water. The last supply truck that he had seen had arrived two nights ago. For some reason it had held a small amount of water and a larger amount of pickled herring. He despaired of bloody supply people sometimes.

He looked around the tent and looked them all in the eye. Many of them held his gaze for a moment and then looked away. “Gentlemen,” he said quietly. “Unless there is anything that any of you have to say now, I will send an officer to the 2nd New Zealand Division in the morning under a flag of truce to… discuss the terms of our surrender.”

One or two heads rose slightly but then slumped back down again. The silence was total.

“Very well then.”

[Cymraeg]

Ettore Bastico was supreme commander of Italian forces in the theater (title cic of Italian forces in north africa, so all italian formations even those rommel exercised tactical control of where his); he was Rommel's nominal superior

http://img309.imageshack.us/img309/7665/rommelramonsbf7aa.jpg



functionally what you suggested would be like monty not needing to meet with ike :)

Isn't that guy to the right Mel Brooks??? :D

[Hyperion]

So now in addition to Rommel, the Italian XX Corps has lost it's commander as well.

You mentioned a number of German commanders killed earlier, in addition to Rommel. From this battle, how many generals, both German and Italian, are either dead, wounded, or captured?

[Cymraeg]

So now in addition to Rommel, the Italian XX Corps has lost it's commander as well.

You mentioned a number of German commanders killed earlier, in addition to Rommel. From this battle, how many generals, both German and Italian, are either dead, wounded, or captured?

Well, IOTL Nehring was badly wounded and von Bismarck was killed. ITTL Rommel's dead, de Stefanis is dead, Kleemann's going into the bag, Bayerlein and von Mellenthin should make it but I don't see a future for Von Vaerst.

[Hyperion]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alam_el_Halfa_order_of_battle

So basically, after the battle the Panzer Armee Afrika will have lost the 90th Light division, and the Italian XX Corps, not counting losses taken to other units.

They will have 15th and 21st Panzer, which have lost a massive amount of tanks and equipment, and the Italian X Corps.

[pike]

Deppressing stuff.

[BlairWitch749]

I'm re-thumbing my way through Panzer Leader again and discovering a lot of surprises. According to Guderian he received a phone call on February 17th, 1943 to ask if he would be willing to go to Vinnitsa to meet Hitler. He arrived on the 19th, and saw Schmundt on the morning of the 20th. They spent 2 hours having a whinge about the state of the panzers and hammering out a deal for Guderian's position and he then met Hitler at 3.15pm that afternoon.
Now like you I thought that all this took place over a longer time period. By Feb 28th Guderian had a draft of his full duties and on March 3rd he was talking to Goebbels as Inspector-General of Armoured Troops. That's faster than I thought it was.

I think you proved my point about Hitler bringing on guderian taking a bit but not the way I inteded.... the actual appointment process only took 2 days BUT it took hitler 2 weeks from the final collapse at stalingrad to decide he needed to bring him back... and the front had move another 200 miles since then

[Cymraeg]

Noon, 6th September, the summit of Himeimat
Himeimat wasn’t a very high hill, but it was the highest point around in what was a flat corner of the desolation that was the Western Desert. It also gave him a wonderful view of the scene of destruction to the North, the debris to the South and above all the last of the retreating German engineers as they sowed a scattering of mines in the swept paths in the minefields far to the West.

Horrocks lowered his binoculars and sniffed the air. There was the distinctive smell of a battlefield in the air – a combination of dust, cordite, blood and burnt flesh. It was not a nice aroma. It spoke of death and destruction on a vast scale.

Hearing the sound of boots scrunching on sun-baked earth and sand he turned his head to see Freyberg and Roberts walking towards him.

“I was just remembering my Wellington,” he said. “’Nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won’. How terribly true he was.”

Freyberg grunted sceptically as he looked around at the detritus that littered the landscape. “This must be what it felt like to be a bosche after Gazala,” he said with a very grim smile. “My God, it feels good to have the boot on the other bloody foot.” He glanced at the wrecked line of tanks that were strewn in front of what had been his front line. The stretcher parties were still moving about, ferrying the wounded to the waiting RAMC ambulances. “They should have retreated when Rommel bought it. They were so low on fuel I’m astonished that they didn’t sir.”

“Well, they paid the price then.” Horrocks shook his head. “We’ve mauled 21st Panzer and destroyed 90th Light, most of 15th Panzer and all of three Italian armoured divisions.”

“A nice bag sir,” Roberts said cheerfully. “That’s what we should have done at Gazala, in the Cauldron.”

“Well, the question is, what do we do now?” Horrocks mused.

Freyberg grimaced. “We were lucky here sir. If they hadn’t been so low on fuel they’d have got themselves back out in fairly good order.”

“I have to agree sir,” Roberts nodded. “We need more time and training to finish the job.”

“Well, we’ll have more men soon,” Horrocks told them. “That supply convoy is being unloaded as well. New tanks, I’ve been told.”

“About time,” Roberts said. “I love our Grants, but they’re very high off the ground sir.”

“Well, back to your units gentlemen. Celebrate our victory – and then we start training exercises tomorrow.”

[Cymraeg]

I think you proved my point about Hitler bringing on guderian taking a bit but not the way I inteded.... the actual appointment process only took 2 days BUT it took hitler 2 weeks from the final collapse at stalingrad to decide he needed to bring him back... and the front had move another 200 miles since then

Plus I think he then had to go on a fact-finding mission to work out just what all the problems were. Although IIRC he didn't meet Goering at that time as Hermann was busy playing with his toy trains or something.

[BlairWitch749]

Plus I think he then had to go on a fact-finding mission to work out just what all the problems were. Although IIRC he didn't meet Goering at that time as Hermann was busy playing with his toy trains or something.

Dude Goering wanted to cancel panzer 4 production when the panthers where not rolling off the line and only 25 tigers where being produced a month :rolleyes:... Guderian and Speer read this and experienced some sort of collective brain fart WTF moment... Guderian sent some kind of memo to Hitler after reading this along the lines of how do we stop the russians from going to berlin in the next 6 weeks with only 25 tanks a month; hitler's reply was that Goering thought it was a good idea to put the panzer 4 turrets in the atlantic wall... guderian then wrote a stinging memo back asking what exactly fat boy knew about armored warfare... hitler didn't reply but decided to allow panzer 4 production to continue, his thoughts upon reading that must have been fucking priceless


Still not as awesome as his first day as chief of staff. There are 3 telephones in Zeitzler's office unlabled; Guderian assumes they probably go to each of the Army Group HQ's in Russia. He picks up the first one, a woman picks up; he tells her who he is, she screams and hangs up the phone :D

[Cymraeg]

Dude Goering wanted to cancel panzer 4 production when the panthers where not rolling off the line and only 25 tigers where being produced a month :rolleyes:... Guderian and Speer read this and experienced some sort of collective brain fart WTF moment... Guderian sent some kind of memo to Hitler after reading this along the lines of how do we stop the russians from going to berlin in the next 6 weeks with only 25 tanks a month; hitler's reply was that Goering thought it was a good idea to put the panzer 4 turrets in the atlantic wall... guderian then wrote a stinging memo back asking what exactly fat boy knew about armored warfare... hitler didn't reply but decided to allow panzer 4 production to continue, his thoughts upon reading that must have been fucking priceless


Still not as awesome as his first day as chief of staff. There are 3 telephones in Zeitzler's office unlabled; Guderian assumes they probably go to each of the Army Group HQ's in Russia. He picks up the first one, a woman picks up; he tells her who he is, she screams and hangs up the phone :D

Yes, but don't forget that Hitler also wanted the Maus to be produced - so who who needed Mark IVs anyway? :rolleyes:

I'd forgotten about Guderian and the hysterical phone operator. I think he also found his offices deserted apart from a sleeping private, who he had to send off to find an officer of some shape or form.

[BlairWitch749]

Yes, but don't forget that Hitler also wanted the Maus to be produced - so who who needed Mark IVs anyway? :rolleyes:

I'd forgotten about Guderian and the hysterical phone operator. I think he also found his offices deserted apart from a sleeping private, who he had to send off to find an officer of some shape or form.

One wonders exactly what Zeitzler was doing the previous 6 months or so...later in the day he (Guderians) speaks to Model and asks him what his last instructions where from Zeitzler and Model says he hasn't spoken to or seen Zeitzler in 4 months and that outside of Hitler cabling him directly he is just using an OKH order from 1943 that says in the absence of contravening orders he can act at his discretion:D I'm sure Guderian did some combination of facepalm and head desk for the remainder of the day... probably regretted accepting the position and headed strait for the liquor cabinet

[Cymraeg]

One wonders exactly what Zeitzler was doing the previous 6 months or so...later in the day he (Guderians) speaks to Model and asks him what his last instructions where from Zeitzler and Model says he hasn't spoken to or seen Zeitzler in 4 months and that outside of Hitler cabling him directly he is just using an OKH order from 1943 that says in the absence of contravening orders he can act at his discretion:D I'm sure Guderian did some combination of facepalm and head desk for the remainder of the day... probably regretted accepting the position and headed strait for the liquor cabinet

Rofl - I just found the bit where "Doctor" Morell wanted to give Guderian a pick-me-up for his heart. I shudder to think what might have been in it.

[BlairWitch749]

Rofl - I just found the bit where "Doctor" Morell wanted to give Guderian a pick-me-up for his heart. I shudder to think what might have been in it.

Given what he was putting in Hitler's needles and the side effects that appeared, probably some combination of cocaine, amphetimines and toasted snail penises

If one puts aside the horribleness of the nazi's and Guderian in particular there is a actually a lot of comedy that can be seen in some of those meetings after july 20th

Hitler is being actively pumped with whatever charlie sheen is on, raving on about nonsense, having his face twitch like rain man having his left arm shake like a mexican space shuttle and periodically foaming at the mouth

Goering is passed out in a morphine coma snoring his ass away at the table with his head covered by a newspaper

Himmler is having an 11 way game of find the pickle with some of his SS boys in the back

Goebbles and Ribbentrop are having a game of who loves the fuhrer the most

Speer is crying in a corner

And there is Guderian, heart condition and all amongst the madness with Lorringhoven and Wenck behind him staring in disbelief at the tragic comedy before them... Krebs isn't standing because he is in a drunken stupor on the floor after his 4th bottle of vermouth of the day trying to turn Hitler's ravings into actual field orders


My grandfather was at one of these meetings at the behest of Bayerlin to relay info on the front in Normandy and the funny story he told was that during a really disorganized clusterfuck of a meeting Lorringhoven says to Guderian that he would like to be transferred to the eastern front... Guderian says no I need you here... and why would you want to go there; and Lorringhoven replies that he would prefer to spend his time in the Korsun Pocket as opposed to another round of Goering snoring :p


Guderian and Hitler are having this huge fight about Himmler conducting this panzer counter offensive on the vistula... and Guderian is just not shutting up and Hitler is about to just spontaneously combust and perhaps place a large turd into his pants and Goering pulls him aside and says why don't you have a cup of coffee and relax :rolleyes:... very lucky that after july 20th they started confiscating the officer's pistols before going into hitler presience... I could very easily have seen Guderian popping fat boy one... hell even in otl Goering was lucky Guderian didn't just pick up a chair and pulverize him with before stuffing his hat down Goerings thoat :D

[Cymraeg]

Given what he was putting in Hitler's needles and the side effects that appeared, probably some combination of cocaine, amphetimines and toasted snail penises

If one puts aside the horribleness of the nazi's and Guderian in particular there is a actually a lot of comedy that can be seen in some of those meetings after july 20th

Hitler is being actively pumped with whatever charlie sheen is on, raving on about nonsense, having his face twitch like rain man having his left arm shake like a mexican space shuttle and periodically foaming at the mouth

Goering is passed out in a morphine coma snoring his ass away at the table with his head covered by a newspaper

Himmler is having an 11 way game of find the pickle with some of his SS boys in the back

Goebbles and Ribbentrop are having a game of who loves the fuhrer the most

Speer is crying in a corner

And there is Guderian, heart condition and all amongst the madness with Lorringhoven and Wenck behind him staring in disbelief at the tragic comedy before them... Krebs isn't standing because he is in a drunken stupor on the floor after his 4th bottle of vermouth of the day trying to turn Hitler's ravings into actual field orders


My grandfather was at one of these meetings at the behest of Bayerlin to relay info on the front in Normandy and the funny story he told was that during a really disorganized clusterfuck of a meeting Lorringhoven says to Guderian that he would like to be transferred to the eastern front... Guderian says no I need you here... and why would you want to go there; and Lorringhoven replies that he would prefer to spend his time in the Korsun Pocket as opposed to another round of Goering snoring :p


Guderian and Hitler are having this huge fight about Himmler conducting this panzer counter offensive on the vistula... and Guderian is just not shutting up and Hitler is about to just spontaneously combust and perhaps place a large turd into his pants and Goering pulls him aside and says why don't you have a cup of coffee and relax :rolleyes:... very lucky that after july 20th they started confiscating the officer's pistols before going into hitler presience... I could very easily have seen Guderian popping fat boy one... hell even in otl Goering was lucky Guderian didn't just pick up a chair and pulverize him with before stuffing his hat down Goerings thoat :D

Rofl, I love the idea of Morell dissecting those snails...
I almost feel sorry for Guderian in Panzer Leader towards the end, especially when he's listening to Hitler rant and rave about appointing Wenck to help Himmler counter-attack on the Russian Front in February 1945 - he was looking at the portrait of Bismark and could almost hear him saying "What are you doing with my country?"

[Hyperion]

So how would the crowd have reacted if someone told them about how Hitler tried to bone his own niece.

[Cymraeg]

So how would the crowd have reacted if someone told them about how Hitler tried to bone his own niece.

Depends. Internally - badly. Externally - "vell everyvon has these needs."

[Cymraeg]

Noon, 8th September, WehrWolf, Vinnitsa
Halder resisted the need to pull off his pinz-nez and rub his forehead. It had not been a good day. In fact, it had been yet another day closer to his increasingly inevitable dismissal by Hitler.

To be honest, it had been a pretty horrible day, because Kesselring had finally sent them a rough estimate of the losses that Panzerarmee Afrika had suffered during what was now becoming g known as the Battle of Alam Halfa. Those losses had been… severe.

Rommel’s forces had started the battle with 200 Panzers and 243 Italian tanks. It had finished with barely 70 Panzers.

So far 21st Panzer looked as if it had gotten off most lightly. It still had 63 panzers left, which was in itself bad enough. That was the good news. The bad news was that 15th Panzer had exactly 10 Panzers left, most of which had been on their way to the repair shops when the main part of the division had been destroyed. Von Vaerst had led a last-ditch breakout attempt with those remnants. He had not survived it.

The really bad news was that 90th Light Division had been forced to surrender, along with the remains of three Italian armoured divisions. The former was bad enough. The latter had provoked a crisis in the two main powers that made up the Axis. The Italians were furious, not that he could blame them.

It had taken less than a week to plunge Panzerarmee Afrika into a deep, deep, crisis. Two thirds of the Afrika Korps had been destroyed or captured and one of Germany’s most famous soldiers was dead.

Hitler’s reaction had been best described as blind fury. He hadn’t understood why Rommel’s initial attacks hadn’t worked, he hadn’t understood why von Vaerst’s follow-up attacks hadn’t worked and he certainly hadn’t understood why von Vaerst had not just retreated but made a mess of the retreat. The lack of fuel had been dismissed as a mere excuse.

In the wake of the disaster (and Halder saw no reason not to see it as such) at Alam Halfa Hitler had ordered that 21st and 15th Panzer were to be rebuilt and 90th Light reformed. Easier said than done there as well – the Eastern Front had priority for new panzers.

Then there was the little issue of Rommel’s replacement. Kesselring was doing an excellent job so far, but he was supposed to be Commander-in-Chief South and he had more responsibilities than just Egypt. Besides, good as he was, he wasn’t a panzer expert, and that was what they needed.

Halder’s search had brought up just one name. Guderian. Hitler’s initial reaction on being given that name had been a curt refusal. “Unacceptable,” he had said and then demanded that Halder find him more names.

So he had. It was quite a good list of names, and Hitler was glowering at them right now, with Jodl next to him and muttering.

“Halder.”

“Mein Fuhrer?”

“These are the only ones you can come up with?”

“Mein Fuhrer, Rommel’s replacement will have to fit a number of very select criteria. They’ll have to be an expert in the employment of panzers. They’ll have to have experience in commanding multiple divisions or even panzer armies. They’ll have to have had combat experience. And they’ll have to be well-known, as to appoint someone who isn’t will be an affront to the Italians.

“That cuts the number of names down substantially. I have listed them all. Manstein. Model. Hoth. Guderian. Hoepnner. I realise that this is not a perfect list. However, I was constrained by the criteria that I mentioned.”

Hitler pulled a face and then looked at Jodl, who looked grim. “Model has just finished repelling a Russian attack. He can’t be spared,” the latter said. “Manstein is involved in critically important operations near Leningrad and Hoth is leading the Fourth Panzerarmee into the Caucasus – he’s vital to that operation. As for Hoepner, he’s utterly unacceptable.”

“Then I’m afraid that that just leaves Guderian,” Halder said quietly. “I’m sorry, mein Fuhrer, I know that you asked me to find someone else, but the fact is that I can’t. He fits the criteria. And I think that his expertise is what Panzerarmee Afrika desperately needs right now.”

Hitler paced around the room for what felt like an age as he glared at the list in his hand. “Isn’t there anyone else?” he asked eventually.

“I considered Balck – he’s been placed onto the reserve list – but I understand that he’s being considered for command of the Grossdeutschland Division. Besides, he has no experience of commanding a panzer army.”

Another silence fell. Hitler stared at the list again. Finally he rubbed his forehead wearily. “Very well. If there’s no other choice. Guderian it is.”

“Yes mein Fuhrer,” Halder said with a deep but hidden sense of relief. Nodding in salute he turned and made for the door. As he reached it, Hitler stirred again.

“Halder.”

“Mein Fuhrer?”

“Tell Guderian that his objective is Alexandria. There are to be no retreats. None at all. Make that very clear indeed.”

A chill went up Halder’s spine for a moment. Hitler’s tone of voice had been… cold. “Yes, mein Fuhrer.”

[zeppelin247]

well if the Germans are stupid enough to actually go for this assault all there going to do is loose even more men and tanks and somehow I cant really see there being a Tunisian front ITTL as I doubt any of the Afrikakorps will make it out of Egypt

[Some Bloke]

I agree by this point the Nazi high command is simply throwing good money after bad at this point. Bolster troops for coastal strikes like Agreement and it's QED before Guderian gets on the plane to Naples.

[trekchu]

And so the Allies' biggest secret weapon is created.

[BlairWitch749]

the lack of experienced division commanders is also going to be crippling; bayerlin and von luck will probably get 21st and 15th; but casualties have been extremely high in senior officers which will radiate down

a lot of potential butterflies unleashed here (hitler's desire for an offensive and objective will be ignored by guderian not only because guderian always did whatever he wanted but also because the panzer army will not have the fuel or ammo to open a general offensive even if reinforced)

if hitler is still committed to africa, one wonders if he will send some of the forces he has on OKW and OKH reserve to reinforce the shattered remains of the panzer army africa... such forces could include the leibstandarte, 10th, 11th or 6th panzer, HG panzer, 2nd parachute maybe 16th motorized or 2nd panzer grenadier... obviously not all of them, but maybe one or two which has huge butterflies for stalingrad (remember torch hasn't happened yet and Hitler, as he did in feb 1942 can reinforce panzer army africa through tunis to avoid allied airpower (he also still has enough aircraft in mainland to suppress malta decently one more time)

also; witht he panzer army so chewed up monty might not be so utterly cautious in his pursuit... this was a mixed blessing in otl... the cautious pursuit prevented any type of serious backhand blow a la Rommel's rebound from crusader BUT it stopped the 8th army from cornering the panzer army and forcing their surrender

if he pursues more aggressively and 6th panzer or some other formation is rapidly force fed into the theater it's possible monty could catch a bloody nose in something akin to agehlia fuckup version 3.0

eagerly following

[DuQuense]

I wonder about the political effects in Italy. Germany had to rescue them in 1941 Greece, and here they are doing it again.

[Hyperion]

Even with Guderian being sent to North Africa, I really don't see any real way the British can be stopped, and once Torch happens, it's game over.

That being said, I think a more interesting challenge would be if Hitler pulls Kesselring back to Germany or France or somewhere, and assigns Guderian to command the Italian campaign.

[Cymraeg]

Berlin, 10th September 1942
The key rattled slightly in the lock as he inserted it, which tended to happen when he was extremely tired. Which he was. Opening the door he entered his house and removed his cap. It felt very reassuring to be back in uniform again. He only wished that the assignment he’d been given had also been so reassuring.

“Heinz? Is that you?”

Heinz Guderian hurried through to the sitting room. Margarete was reclining on the sofa there. She was still pale and unsteady on her feet at times, as a result of the blood poisoning that had left her bed-ridden for months.

“Here I am my dear,” he said cheerfully. Perhaps a little too cheerfully, because she frowned and put down the book that she’d been reading.

“What’s the matter?” Margarete asked. “Didn’t your meeting at Zossen go well?”

“It went well,” he said slowly, sitting next to her and undoing the top button of his tunic. “It was somewhat odd, as Jodl wasn’t there, or Keitel. I saw Warlimont instead.”

“And?” His wife took his hand. “Where are they sending you? Can you tell me?”

He looked at her gravely. “My dear, they’ve asked me to take over Rommel’s command.”

“In Egypt?” she asked, visibly shocked.

He nodded. “I’m afraid so.”

He could see at once that her eyes had moistened, but she quickly dried them with her handkerchief. “I know you, Heinz. You have to do your duty.” She clutched his hand fiercely. “But you come back from there alive, do you hear me?”

“I promise,” he smiled, before leaning over and kissing her gently. “You have my word of honour.”

“When do you leave?”

“The day after tomorrow,” he sighed. “They’re getting me down there as quickly as possible. There’s a lot to do. The situation is… not a good one there.”

She nodded and then frowned. “You’ll need a thin uniform then,” she said thoughtfully. “And clean underwear.”

He smiled at her. Margarete always focussed on the small but important details in life.

[Hyperion]

So after he leaves Germany, will he head straight to Tripoli and the front, or will he stop over for a few days in Italy for additional briefings.

Another important thing to look at, what might Monty be planning right now. He just killed Rommel and wiped out roughly a third of the Axis army in one blow. While he may take some time to build up and resupply 8th Army, I doubt Monty would let the Germans and Italians have too much time to recover, if any.

[Gannt the chartist]

Don't ask me for time.

Very interesting timeline - because of credibility and what else is going on.

Montgomery takes over 8th army on 15 August so he has been in command about 3 weeks by now, one of which has been spent in the destruction of the Panzer Armee Afrika not sure what it would do to the Montgomery psyche or the troops view of him as they could take the view that they won it not the new general with white knees. And it’s not his view of himself that matters in the end its the soldiers view of him.
Assuming a retreat start date of 6 September
19 August Brazil declares war on Germany – just sayin’
11/12 Sept 8th army at Buq Buq
15 September Battle of Stalingrad begins
22 Sept Benghazi Falls: germans reach centre of stalingrad
25 Sept El Agheila PzAA stands but main defensive force was 90th light so is this possible.
15 October PzAA retreats
27 October Sirte Falls
29 Oct 18, 90th Light and 15th Pz stand west of Beurat.
8 November TORCH landings
10 November French surrender/remember whose side they are on
11 November Brits Boogie & 13 November Brits get Bone (sorry had to)
17 November Wadi Zem Zem position turned
19 November Operation URANUS begins
21 November Hams falls
25 November Tripoli Falls: airlift into Stalingrad begins
6 December 8th Army Crosses the Libyan Border

With an end date of 6 September that means 8th army will have defeated PzAA in ? 7 days not the 2 weeks Alamein took, with significantly fewer casualties much less disruption to corps organisation and resupply, no rain until early November and with 51st, I think 44th inf divs currently in the delta and probably a corps HQ (10th) available. I think all of that would speed up the pursuit which would be better balanced corps. Even if by a few days – say no long delay at El Agheila or Wadi Zem Zem, PzAA will be faced with either surrendering with its back to the Tunisian border or retreating into Tunisia prior to or almost simultaneously to TORCH.

And Alexander takes over the army group that much sooner and is in a position to kick people appropriately and diplomatically. I think Eisenhower would be better for it in the end.

While Hitler would reinforce Africa if he could especially in the light of French ‘treachery’ there is going to have to be a choice if he waits until TORCH of Tunisia or Stalingrad, not even Goering will be able to pretend he can do both. That may lead to a german violation of Tunisia (ANTON in effect) prior to TORCH in order to gain space for PzAA to retreat into.
Of course if he writes things off that so many more men to go into the East. The logical conclusion of keeping advancing the timeline in this way HUSKY/AVALANCHE prior to ZITADELLE.

As for PzAA not even the archangel Michael in command will do much good unless he brings the heavenly host. They are retreating back onto their supply lines but maybe not onto stocked depots. They have lost 2 months OTL pause between Alam Halfa and Alamein. I suspect the Mareth Line and the short hop to the port of Tunis will look awfully tempting to someone.

Incidentally - why was von Arnim ruled out?

[Hyperion]

Don't ask me for time.

Very interesting timeline - because of credibility and what else is going on.

Montgomery takes over 8th army on 15 August so he has been in command about 3 weeks by now, one of which has been spent in the destruction of the Panzer Armee Afrika not sure what it would do to the Montgomery psyche or the troops view of him as they could take the view that they won it not the new general with white knees. And it’s not his view of himself that matters in the end its the soldiers view of him.
Assuming a retreat start date of 6 September
19 August Brazil declares war on Germany – just sayin’
11/12 Sept 8th army at Buq Buq
15 September Battle of Stalingrad begins
22 Sept Benghazi Falls: germans reach centre of stalingrad
25 Sept El Agheila PzAA stands but main defensive force was 90th light so is this possible.
15 October PzAA retreats
27 October Sirte Falls
29 Oct 18, 90th Light and 15th Pz stand west of Beurat.
8 November TORCH landings
10 November French surrender/remember whose side they are on
11 November Brits Boogie & 13 November Brits get Bone (sorry had to)
17 November Wadi Zem Zem position turned
19 November Operation URANUS begins
21 November Hams falls
25 November Tripoli Falls: airlift into Stalingrad begins
6 December 8th Army Crosses the Libyan Border

I'm confused by your statements.:confused:

In this timeline, 90th Light Division has been defeated and forced to surrender. Some individual members of the division may have escaped to fight another day, but for the most part that division not longer exists.

[Cymraeg]

I did look at von Arnim, but at the time he was commanding XXXIX Panzerkorps at Rzhev under Model. Plus I don't think that he was high-profile enough. Losing Rommel was a huge blow, so regrettably politics enters the equation - they need someone who's well-known. I think that when von Arnim was appointed as CO of 5th Panzerarmee in OTL the first reaction would have been on the lines of 'who??'.

[BlairWitch749]

arnim would have been first in line to take over 9th army is model was released for other duties


a small question based on what i brought up before

Guderian taking the position is somewhat unlikely as a standalone, especially if he is briefed on the true situation on the ground... he would demand divisions from the OKW reserve to reinforce the panzer army africa

if those divisions are taken from reserve, the battle of stalingrad may not develop the same way as hitler may decline against having the army tied up in a narrow area with no theater reserves

[Cymraeg]

arnim would have been first in line to take over 9th army is model was released for other duties


a small question based on what i brought up before

Guderian taking the position is somewhat unlikely as a standalone, especially if he is briefed on the true situation on the ground... he would demand divisions from the OKW reserve to reinforce the panzer army africa

if those divisions are taken from reserve, the battle of stalingrad may not develop the same way as hitler may decline against having the army tied up in a narrow area with no theater reserves

Don't forget that Guderian was being awfully nice to his wife. ;)
The next part should lay out Guderian's take on things.

[Hyperion]

arnim would have been first in line to take over 9th army is model was released for other duties


a small question based on what i brought up before

Guderian taking the position is somewhat unlikely as a standalone, especially if he is briefed on the true situation on the ground... he would demand divisions from the OKW reserve to reinforce the panzer army africa

if those divisions are taken from reserve, the battle of stalingrad may not develop the same way as hitler may decline against having the army tied up in a narrow area with no theater reserves

Even with this appointment, if Guderian is still considered to be in the dog house with Hitler, could Hitler even care what Guderian wants.

Publicly he can use fighting in Stalingrad to say that divisions are needed to fight the Marxist threat in the east and few if any reserves are available.

Privately, North Africa was a drain on the Russian front, partly due to the stupidity of Mussolini, and now that Rommel is dead Hitler would like that front wrapped up one way or another. If Guderian dies or ends up a POW, one less headache.

He can even publicly say that Kesselring, as overall theater commander in the Meditteranean, feels that it is better to conserve troops and equipment defending Italy and Sicily.

[Cymraeg]

Even with this appointment, if Guderian is still considered to be in the dog house with Hitler, could Hitler even care what Guderian wants.

Publicly he can use fighting in Stalingrad to say that divisions are needed to fight the Marxist threat in the east and few if any reserves are available.

Privately, North Africa was a drain on the Russian front, partly due to the stupidity of Mussolini, and now that Rommel is dead Hitler would like that front wrapped up one way or another. If Guderian dies or ends up a POW, one less headache.

He can even publicly say that Kesselring, as overall theater commander in the Meditteranean, feels that it is better to conserve troops and equipment defending Italy and Sicily.

True, but by now the bats are starting to flap their wings in Hitler's head, fed by Morell's diet of strychnine, cocaine and powdered snail's penises. Don't forget that in June 1942 Mussolini had flown to North Africa because he thought that he was about to be driven in triumph through the streets of Alexandria. Both he and Hitler thought that Rommel should have been stronger at Alam Halfa IOTL and won the battle (fat chance). Politics and pride are bad combinations, especially with the Germans just 60 miles from Alex. If the 8th Army could be defeated and Egypt taken then it might (and I stress the word might) have tipped Turkey into the war. The Axis forces have to stay there until the job is done according to Hitler.

[BlairWitch749]

Even with this appointment, if Guderian is still considered to be in the dog house with Hitler, could Hitler even care what Guderian wants.

Publicly he can use fighting in Stalingrad to say that divisions are needed to fight the Marxist threat in the east and few if any reserves are available.

Privately, North Africa was a drain on the Russian front, partly due to the stupidity of Mussolini, and now that Rommel is dead Hitler would like that front wrapped up one way or another. If Guderian dies or ends up a POW, one less headache.

He can even publicly say that Kesselring, as overall theater commander in the Meditteranean, feels that it is better to conserve troops and equipment defending Italy and Sicily.


Hitler can't have Guderian come back without releasing him from the dog house... the end was just too firey in 1941 for this to happen without some kind of fence mending which has to include Hitler coddeling Guderian a bit (otherwise Guderian would just decline the reinstatement)

Hitler was willing to committ reserve divisions to africa even when the situation was more hopeless than this tl (after torch he committed 3 of his strongest reserve divisions to defend tunisia) Guderian alone will not be enough to keep face with Benny, Guderian will have to bring some troops with him (maybe 6th panzer and the leibstandarte since they are full strength and not in Russia; those two divisions would greatly reinvigorate the panzer army africa

In OTL Goering floated the idea of a third rebound offensive out of el agehlia following the debacle at Alemein... Rommel vetoed it due to torch, feeling he was too weak to counter attack and that he desperately needed to join hands with the 5th panzer army to prevent encirclement

with torch still 8 weeks in the future (if it still goes forward) and guderian possibly bringing several fresh formations the idea may get more consideration

[Cymraeg]

8th Army Main HQ, Burg-al-Arab, September 15th 1942.
“Is he in Freddie?”

Freddie de Guingard looked tired, Horrocks thought as he strode into the tent next to Monty’s. The sea was a particularly brilliant shade of green-blue today and the breeze from it was refreshing. However, from the mound of folders on Freddie’s desk he was too busy working to pay much attention to such a minor thing.

“He’s in, Jorrocks,” Freddie replied tiredly. “He’s busy working on a diplomatic response to the latest edict from London. The PM’s been bombarding us with messages for a week now. He wants us to move the attack up. Monty’s digging in his heels though – he feels it’s too soon based on the condition of the army.”

“Ah,” said Horrocks carefully. He held up his own folder. “Speaking of which he wanted to know the progress of training in XIII Corps.”

“You’d better brief him then,” Freddie said. “Just let me know if he’s finished his response to London. The last one he wanted to send had to be toned down a tad by myself and Alex.”

Grimacing slightly Horrocks strode over to the large tent. He’d heard a rumour that a group of South African engineers were working on making Monty a command caravan. He hoped that they’d hurry up – he couldn’t see Monty relying on a tent for long. He didn’t seem like the kind of person that liked camping for a start.

“Excuse me sir,” he said as he approached the opening to the tent. “You wanted a report on the training regime at XIII Corps.”

Monty’s thin face with his cold eyes turned in his direction and then a small smile surfaced under the mustache. “Ah, Jorrocks! Come in, come in.” He stood up from his own desk and shook Horrocks by the hand. “How’s it going there?”

“Promising for the most part,” Horrocks said as he removed his hat and opened the folder. “But not as fast as I might have hoped sir. I’m doing my best to ginger them up a bit, but I’m very concerned about the level of training of the armoured formations and some of our infantry brigades are very green, although Alam Halfa has rubbed some of the more awkward corners off them.”

Monty took the report and peered at it through his spectacles. “A good start,” he said after a moment. “You’re right about the armour though. Until they can get it into their heads that the old days of charging in all directions are over, I have to keep them on a very tight leash. They think that they’re still cavalry – I’ve had to write a very firm letter to Brooke about improving the training of armoured units in England. They’re useless unless they can change it. Absolutely useless!” He glared at the side of the tent for as moment. “When I think about what was wasted here over the past two years – the number of useless officers swanning around wasting the lives of valuable men… well, that’s over now.”

He stood and walked over to the mapboard on the other side of the tent. “London wants me to attack at once, given how badly the Boche were hit for a six at Alam Halfa,” he said, tilting his head at the map almost quizzically. “My reply is that I can’t – the men just aren’t trained enough. Even Auchinleck told London that and he was right. He wasn’t right about much else, but he was right about that. The infantry need training on mine clearance. The engineers need to be strengthened and re-equipped. The armour need time to learn how to use these new Shermans – and also they need to relearn how to co-operate with the infantry! Above all the reinforcements need to be worked into the depleted units. And we need to put into place a deception plan to fool the boche about where we’re attacking. On a front this short, with the German minefields as deep as they are, we’ll need to pull the wool over their eyes.” He looked at the map again.

“Is there any more news about Rommel’s replacement sir?” Horrocks asked.

“Just that it’s definitely Guderian,” Monty said, his eyes glittering with a certain undefinable something. “He should be in Egypt by now.”

“Ah,” Horrocks said with a smile of his own. “Would I be too impertinent if I said that as a fellow veteran of the ’40 campaign in Belgium and France we owe him a walloping sir?”

“Not at all, Jorrocks not at all. Now – let’s look at this training report of yours in more detail. And after that you can reassure Freddie that I’m not going to send London a rude message.”

[Geordie]

I don't really have the expertise to comment with any insight, but consider me subscribed. :)

[BlairWitch749]

so it seems like monty is still committed to a cautious pursuit, that would give guderian time to reorganize the shattered remains of the panzer army; he does have a few advantages in the position... Bayerlin and Nehring have served under Guderian before; plus Guderian worked hand in hand with Kesselring during Barbarossa; so the HQ should become fairly well functioning at a rapid clip

if the panzer army can delay monty (plus monty's own slowness) through the various stopping points... fuka, the frontier, halfaya etc etc; there is a decent shot that Guderian can funnel his reinforcements into Tripoli and Bengahzi and mass them for El Egahlia version 3.0... which probably wouldn't work as well against monty as it had the previous 2 times, BUT with a decent strike force plus radio silence enough of the troops are green where Guderian could at least force a halt; although that leaves him in a precarious position when torch comes

elements of the africa corps (streaming back because rommel didn't do 3rd battle of Egahlia) where critical in ejecting american, free french and british forces out of key points in tunisia which added many months to the campaign by allowing the panzer army africa to link up with 5th panzer army in a semi solid semi circle shield

[Hyperion]

so it seems like monty is still committed to a cautious pursuit, that would give guderian time to reorganize the shattered remains of the panzer army; he does have a few advantages in the position... Bayerlin and Nehring have served under Guderian before; plus Guderian worked hand in hand with Kesselring during Barbarossa; so the HQ should become fairly well functioning at a rapid clip

if the panzer army can delay monty (plus monty's own slowness) through the various stopping points... fuka, the frontier, halfaya etc etc; there is a decent shot that Guderian can funnel his reinforcements into Tripoli and Bengahzi and mass them for El Egahlia version 3.0... which probably wouldn't work as well against monty as it had the previous 2 times, BUT with a decent strike force plus radio silence enough of the troops are green where Guderian could at least force a halt; although that leaves him in a precarious position when torch comes

elements of the africa corps (streaming back because rommel didn't do 3rd battle of Egahlia) where critical in ejecting american, free french and british forces out of key points in tunisia which added many months to the campaign by allowing the panzer army africa to link up with 5th panzer army in a semi solid semi circle shield

If Guderian can get a couple of extra divisions down to Libya to rebuild the army, how long would it actually take to have them ready to go into battle?

[BlairWitch749]

If Guderian can get a couple of extra divisions down to Libya to rebuild the army, how long would it actually take to have them ready to go into battle?

the 6th panzer and leibstandarte where full strength and had lots of combat experience on the eastern and western front... so it's only a question of desert proofing their equipment

i figure a third of the work could be done prior to getting to libya (especially since some regiments would have to wait a bit due to shipping space restrictions

the rest would be done in workshops in tripoli which already set up for it.... no more than 10 days in country to be combat ready

[trekchu]

Problem is, they have to get there.

[Cymraeg]

HQ, Panzerarmee Afrika, 16th September 1942
The flies were extremely unpleasant, Guderian thought savagely as he sat at his new desk in his command caravan. They were large, fat, extremely aggressive and they got everywhere. So far he was not enjoying Africa. The flies were the most minor problem for a start. The military situation was far, far worse.

He looked over at Bayerlein, who was working on updating the situation map with the latest reports from the reconnaissance units in the South, and made a mental note to meet with von Luck as soon as possible. The man was excellent and deserved a far better command than his present one.

As far as he could tell, based on three days of experience, a lot of meetings and more hair-raising reports on the parlous state of his logistics than he would have liked, Panzerarmee Afrika was not in a good state at the moment.

Out of his panzer divisions 21st Panzer was in the best shape at the moment, in that it was at 68% strength. 15th Panzer and 90th Light were effectively out of action for the foreseeable future – they’d have to be almost totally rebuilt. 90th Light currently consisted of a few small scraps in fact. Given the fact that the Western Desert of Egypt was a terrible place to do this rebuilding, the remnants were being pulled back to the rear of his positions, almost to the Libyan border. Even though this took them closer to the ports where their new men and equipment would be arriving, it would still be a slow process that frankly could be better done in Europe. However, they did not have that luxury.

As for the Italian XXth Corps that had been totally destroyed and was being rebuilt in Italy. Mussolini had been… insistent on that, but had promised to send him the Centauro armoured division in the meantime. He paused for a moment as he remembered the look on Mussolini’s face as he’d talked about the loss of the three Italian divisions at Alam Halfa. There had been shadows under his eyes and he wondered just how much the defeat had cost the Italian dictator in terms of political support.

As for support from Germany, Warlimont had promised to send the 6th Panzer division to make up the numbers until the two other German divisions could be rebuilt, but he’d stressed that it was a temporary loan – if circumstances warranted it could and would be recalled to Europe. Mention had been made of the Hermann Goering Panzer brigade being sent as well, but apparently Goering had expressed reservations about that. Just why the Luftwaffe needed a panzer unit was still beyond Guderian’s comprehension. Perhaps Goering liked to play with his tanks the way that he played with his toy trains at Carinhall.

He sighed as he stood up and walked over to the map. Bayerlein had finished and was looking at the map grimly. The problem with promising such reinforcements is that it took time to get them from point A to point B – especially when those two points were divided by a sea like the Mediterranean. And most especially when Axis ships were being sunk on a regular basis by the British submarines that seemed to infest the area.

And if crossing the sea was bad enough then any units or equipment then had to be moved up to the front via a long and tortuous supply line. Supply line as in singular. It was a single road that ran parallel to the coast. In places it was supplemented by tracks, but those tracks weren’t paved. Oh and at the Egyptian border it was joined by a railway line. Unfortunately that railway line ran no further than the border. Plus the British had blown up two of the steam engines that had fallen into German hands. Everything therefore had to come up via the road. Everything. Water, fuel, food, spare parts, men, machines, everything.

And to make matters still worse the lorries that the Axis were using were primarily captured British ones. And they kept breaking down from a combination of hard usage and lack of spare parts. Campaigning on such a supply line would be… difficult to put it as mildly as possible. Frankly he was amazed that Rommel had been able to get as far as he had.

Oh and then there was the small matter of the substantial British army that was assembling to the East. From the reports that they were receiving the British and Commonwealth units were engaging in a very intense programme of training. Far more intense than Guderian liked the sound of. By the feel of things the British would attack soon – perhaps even by the end of the month. The question was – where?

[Astrodragon]

They were large, fat, extremely aggressive and they got everywhere.

Isn't it a bit early for American tourists to be in North Africa? :D:D

Seriously, good TL, please keep it coming :)

[Gannt the chartist]

I'm confused by your statements.:confused:

In this timeline, 90th Light Division has been defeated and forced to surrender. Some individual members of the division may have escaped to fight another day, but for the most part that division not longer exists.

Sorry for not being clear, the timeline is that of the OTL pursuit after Alamein but starting from the earlier date of TTL. apols for confusion.

90th light which is prominent in both stands is as you say non existent so what forces are available to stand?

Even at this rate of advance the Axis have until 22 September = 16 days to alert, move and ship forces and move from Tripoli to a front. And whatever is said abotu monty being slow it did rain in November and did not in September. I think that pursuit timeline is the slowest so anything moving things up is going to compress the pursuit and TORCH.

[Gannt the chartist]

Its 8th army actual advances post Alamein BUT starting from the date TTL has the german order to retreat. basically puts things about 2 months earlier on the western desert.

I doubt if it would either be possible or desirable to postpone TORCH. There may be a possibility to bring it forward in some way if the French invite them in.

I am not sure that are any fully formed armoured units in France. The 42 TOE for Das Reich [SS infanterie Division (mot)] gives a Stug batallion and a PzJag. The PzGr designation is after ANTON - not far away but at best it would be a poorly trained Pz Bn, no time for formation exercises.

10th Pz has been mentioned but that came out of Russia a wreck in May and has only 3 months to rebuild - Wiki notes (from a reputable source I think) it was transferred to Tunisia as soon as transport could be provided - December. I think the inference is that there would be a lead time of 3-4 weeks from a go order until a major unit could be sealifted.

The OTL lift was into Tunis 150 miles from Sicily and all in air cover until the allied air logistics catch up. Shipping to Benghazi if possible would have to take place within 2 weeks ~20 September else (based on the OTL pursuit timetable) it has fallen. Shipping to Tripoli either goes directly past Malta (within 50 miles) or extends the route and therefore time at sea a long way westwards direct line is 300-350 miles maybe 30 hours at 10 knots. If you want to stay out of say a 150 mile radius of Malta its just short of of a 2 day passage. One run is feasible, maybe with good luck and no minefields. getting the shipping back for a second I think highly problematic - no idea on what the port of Tripoli was like in 1942.

Pushing the destruction of a large part of PzAA up 2 months and not having to fight through the actual Alamein position gives 8th army a much better organisational and logistic position and 2 spare - well by German standards Panzer grenadier divisions - uncommitted.

My other point would be the german logistics position in Africa. OTL there was a quiet period between Alam Halfa and Alamein. The German problem was always magnified by the need to ship stores forward from bases. OTL they were retreating onto depot with a degree of stocks. I don't know but suspect the depots would be pretty bare after the consumption of Alam Halfa.

[Astrodragon]

I have a question...

I can actually see Montgonery's logic in trading off an immediate follow-up attack by desperately needed training (especially since similar attacks had been handled hard in the past).

However what is the Desert Air Force doing? Granted they'll need some time to recover from their own battle effort, but is it not likely they will be used to harrass and slow down the AK to prepare them for a coup de grace from the army? It might be interesting to see Guderians reaction to this, as its something he hasnt had to deal with before...

[Hyperion]

Its 8th army actual advances post Alamein BUT starting from the date TTL has the german order to retreat. basically puts things about 2 months earlier on the western desert.

I doubt if it would either be possible or desirable to postpone TORCH. There may be a possibility to bring it forward in some way if the French invite them in.

I see no point to delay TORCH.

That being said, within a couple of days difference, I see no realistic way to move Torch forward, unless the US wants to do it with a division or so less troops than OTL.

TORCH was interesting for US amphibious invasions, in that it was the only one where a number of the troops that stormed the beaches of North Africa arrived directly from the US, not staging grounds in Britain or elsewhere.

[Cymraeg]

I think that IOTL the DAF was constantly on the prowl above Rommel's forces, ready to pick off anything juicy whenever they could, and it will be the same ITL. What fascinates me is the almost total failure of the Luftwaffe to exert any kind of meaningful influence over the skies above El Alamein. They seemed to concentrate on their fighter aces racking up fighter kills insread of going for the bombers. In fact Luftwaffe rookies were told to leave targets to the aces like Marseille. That's a failure of leadership as far as I'm concerned.

[BlairWitch749]

So Guderian is getting 6th panzer alone... interesting; it's still a substantial reinforcement; at that moment the strongest division in the entire heer with 160 long barrelled panzer 4's and an attached battalion of stuggs (plus a mobile battalion of 88mm AA guns)... they are brilliantly lead at the division, regimental and battalion level and have a high proportion of experienced personel who have seen service in Poland France and Russia

given their experience advantage versus the overwhelming percentage of British troops one could expect them to perhaps create a level of effectiveness comparable at least to the shattered divisions that escaped in otl

on the LW a special note... reading heinz barr's bio in LW aces you get a real feel for how unbelieably shitty the tempo of operations was in africa and tunisia; this seemed to be several fold

high percentage of machines unservicable due to general flaws in the me-109; desert conditions, difficulty getting parts, primitive condition of airfrields etc etc

pilot replacements basically zero (a general LW failing) but also enormous demand on the eastern front and home defense left africa on the bottom of the totem pole

chronic and crippling fuel shortages that kept the planes grounded even in the face of having their own bases be bombed

[Hyperion]

Only having one division reinforcements is not necessarily a bad thing.

Guderian isn't stupid, and from my impressions, he seems to realize that while the game is not finished in North Africa, German and Italian long term prospects don't seem very good.

Even though TORCH is still several weeks off, I'm assuming Guderian is also taking into account the possibility that the US will arrive in force with at least a division, if not a corps level force at some point to bolster their British and Commonwealth Allies.

Add into this the fact that Mussolini and other Italian figures may have taken a heavy blow, politically speaking, from the destruction of the Italian XX Corps. Holding any serious real estate in North Africa is going to be nearly impossible if the Italians decide to throw in the towel and cut their losses.

I think Guderian can still hurt the British, and the Americans when they arrive, but I think he is smart enough to realize that in the long term cutting the losses and withdrawing to Sicily and Italy are probably a less worse option.

One thing to consider, how will Guderian get along with Kesselring? From my understanding, Kesselring and Rommel didn't work well together as much as they could or should have. Perhaps Guderian will have a better relationship coordinating operations and planning in the region.

[Cymraeg]

8th Army Main HQ, Burg-al-Arab, September 22th 1942.
The assembled officers sat quietly in their seats as Montgomery strode up to the mapboard. He’d already given them their three minutes to cough, something that still made Horrocks grin internally. The funny thing was that it worked – or at least no-one dared to cough out loud afterwards.

“Gentlemen,” he said in his distinctive voice with its weak ‘R’s, “I have brought you here to lay out my appreciation of how the battle will develop. Let me start by pointing out that we have a very tricky opponent. Guderian is one of Germany’s leading tank experts. He won his spurs against the Poles, he led the breakthrough in France in ’40 and he was literally all over the place in Russia. He is a formidable adversary and I do not intend to take him lightly.” A smile flashed across his face. “Of course this time he is facing a far superior adversary – indeed, a far superior army - and he will soon find himself dancing to my tune.

“Now, we have spent a great deal of time and effort making Guderian think that the main blow against him will fall in the South. After all, that has been the usual area to attack due to the tempting thought of outflanking the enemy and driving North to the sea. However, that is not what we will do. Instead we will attack in the North.”

Turning to the map he gestured at the areas outlined in red just in front of the British lines. “The German minefields are substantial ones, and will obviously have to be penetrated on the first night of the battle. The engineers of XXX Corps will therefore create two passages through the mine fields, both starting roughly here.” His finger jabbed at a point to the East of Miteiriya Ridge, “The first will be driven straight South-West, heading for the ridge itself. Possession of the high ground there gentlemen is key. The second passage will be driven straight West, for this small ridge here, which has been designated by the name ‘Kidney’.”

Montgomery looked around the room fiercely. “Before the engineers enter the minefields, 8th Army’s artillery will be engaged on prolonged and intensive counter-battery fire to suppress the German and Italian artillery as well as engaging the German and Italian defensive positions within and behind the minefields. There is to be no skimping on the use of artillery, gentlemen. I recognise the danger that the engineers will find themselves under. If we have to use sledgehammers to smash walnuts then so be it, but we have substantial ammunition reserves and the guns to employ it.”

He turned back to the map again. “Once these passages have been driven through the minefields then we will immediately pass through the infantry, with especial emphasis on the swift deployment of anti-tank guns to protect them. Once the enemy discovers where we are attacking then he will attack with infantry and tanks to try and dislodge us. We must have defences emplaced rapidly so that we can defend the passages and widen them as quickly as possible.”

Montgomery’s eyes lingered on the commanders of the armoured divisions. “Based on the events of the battle of Alam Halfa I am now no longer convinced that it is a practical proposition to deploy our own armour in substantial units on the first day of the battle. The congestion in the passageways will, as we have seen, be substantial. I therefore intend to thicken the anti-tank defences as much as possible on the first day and then introduce the first tank units to reinforce the defences of the gaps on the second night. We will, in effect, be attacking in order to defend.

“Guderian will have to send his own armour, which has been significantly depleted, to attack our exits from the minefields and seal off our attack. This will mean that they will be assaulting our own defences. At first these will be the dug-in infantry and anti-tank guns. After that our defences will be added to by tanks firing from hull-down positions. The high ground, gentlemen, the high ground is the key to this battle. Once we have it, we will control the battle.”

Now he looked at Horrocks. “Once the enemy has been forced to commit his forces in an effort to stop XXX Corps, XIII Corps will enter the battle and the enemy will find that he has he has a new problem. The target for XIII Corps is Qaret el Abd. Possession of that point will complete the first stage of the battle. After that – the second stage will begin.”

Montgomery went on to speak for a further fifteen minutes, after which he allowed a smattering of questions before he dismissed them. And then the assembled officers stood up and left the tent, talking amongst themselves quietly.

Horrocks found himself with Morshead, Pienaar and Freyburg, all three of whom were African veterans. “The boys should be interested,” the Australian said laconically. Then his eyes narrowed. “I think that if this goes off as planned then we’ll have quite a bit of what our yank mates call ‘payback.’”

Horrocks nodded along with the others. Right, he thought, a week to go and a lot of planning to do. And more training.

[Hyperion]

So while the land and air battle approaches, how might the Royal Navy be able to help.

I'm not an expert, but given the circumstances, I would think Admiral Cunningham would want to throw every submarine available at the Axis supply lines to try and do as much damage as possible and try to take down some of the reinforcements and replacements heading to North Africa.

[PMN1]

Any chance of an improvement in the Matilda Scorpians for flail work?

From wiki

The (mine flail) idea is commonly attributed to a South African soldier - Captain Abraham du Toit. A test rig was constructed in South Africa and results were so encouraging that du Toit was promoted and sent to England to develop the idea.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-0)

Before du Toit left for England, he described his idea to Captain Norman Berry, a mechanical engineer who had been sent to South Africa in 1941 to evaluate the system. Captain Berry later served in the British Eighth Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Eighth_Army) during the Western Desert Campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Desert_Campaign). He had become an enthusiast for the mine flail idea; he lobbied senior officers to authorize development of a flail [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-Fletch-1) and he carried out his own experiments with mine flails in the spring of 1942. Later, a Major L. A. Girling, was given the task of developing a similar device after it had been independently re-invented by another South African officer. When Captain Berry heard of this, he handed over his work to Girling (Girling had had no idea he was duplicating du Toit's current work in England as that was still highly secret).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Dr.David Gustanski made the device that connected to the side of the tank that made the flail go up and down.


Development by Girling's team in Egypt continued over the summer of 1942 and resulted in the "Matilda Scorpion" (the name came from a senior officer's remark on the tank's appearance). This was a Matilda tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda_tank) fitted with a rotor, mounted on two arms, roughly 6 feet (1.8 m) in front of the tank. The rotor carried 24 flails and was driven at 100 rpm by a 105 horsepower (78 kW) Ford V8 engine. This second engine was fitted in an armoured box mounted on the right side of the tank, the outside box included space for a crewman who operated the device. Although the mine sweeping process was slow, the Scorpions raised such a huge dust cloud when used in the desert that they obscured themselves from German gunners. The cloud also blinded the drivers and the crews had to resort to wearing their gas masks in order to breathe.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]


Twenty-five Matilda Scorpions, operated by the 42nd Royal Tank Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42nd_Royal_Tank_Regiment) and 44th Royal Tank Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/44th_Royal_Tank_Regiment) of the 1st Army Tank Brigade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Army_Tank_Brigade_%28United_Kingdom%29), were available by October 1942 and took part in the Second Battle of El Alamein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_El_Alamein). German minefields around El Alamein contained around three million mines and had been named the Devil's gardens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_gardens) by the German commander, Erwin Rommel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel). Breaching these minefields was vital to the Allied battleplan.


During the battle, the Scorpions were less successful than hoped.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-2) While reasonably effective at mine clearing, the hastily developed flail system was unreliable and broke down frequently. Also, there were frequent engine failures as the air filters were overwhelmed by the volume of dust produced by flailing, or the engines overheated because of the desert environment.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-Fletch-1) Much of the mine clearing that was critical to the Commonwealth victory still had to be carried out by hand. One unexpected effect was that the noise, dust and terrifying appearance of an approaching flail tank caused several Axis infantry units to surrender without resistance.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]




After the battle, a Mark II version of the Scorpion was produced by removing the main gun as that was thought to be redundant. Controls for the flail were moved into the turret so the flail operator could be moved inside the tank, taking the place of the gunner. Engine air filters were improved and unreliable components strengthened.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-Fletch-1) Mark III and Mark IV Scorpions were later developed that were based on the M3 Grant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Lee). This larger tank was a more suitable mount for a flail than the Matilda and many became available for modification as, by this time, they were being replaced on the battlefield by the M4 Sherman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman). A small number of these Grant Scorpions were produced and were used during the remainder of the North African campaign and later during the Allied invasion of Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_invasion_of_Sicily).



Meanwhile in Britain, du Toit (as unaware of developments in North Africa as they were of his) working with AEC Limited (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Equipment_Company), had developed the Matilda Baron.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-OspreyMatilda-3) The Baron's problem was that, like the Scorpion, the rotor was powered by external, auxiliary engines that made it too wide to cross a Bailey bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey_bridge) and which had to be removed if it was to be transported by rail.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-Fletch-1) Sixty Barons were constructed by Curran Brothers of Cardiff, but they were only used for demonstrations and training.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-OspreyMatilda-3)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-OspreyMatilda-3)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-OspreyMatilda-3)
A number of experimantal flail tank were produced, including the Valentine Scorpion, based on the Valentine tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentine_tank) and several designs based the M4 Sherman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman)–the Sherman Mark IV and Mark V Scorpions and the "Sherman Lobster". Eventually one of these, the Sherman Crab, went into full production at the request of General Hobart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Hobart) and saw active service. Du Toit himself had became a strong advocate of a concept called the Parambulator Mine Flail - a self contained device with its own engine, that could be pushed ahead of any tank that was available. However, the consensus of opinion favored special-purpose tanks with a permanently mounted flail system and he returned to South Africa in 1943.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-Fletch-1) In 1948, du Toit would receive an award of £13,000 from the Royal Commission on Awards to Inventors for his work on the flail. Nine others (including four South Africans) would share a further £7,000.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-4)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-4)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-4)
Unlike the Scorpion, the Crab's flail was powered by the main engine. In Britain, the time and resources were available to carry out the major modifications to the Shermans' transmission that were needed to add a power take off (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_take_off). This removed a major problem of the Scorpion - the outside auxiliary engine with its vulnerable operator. The Crab's rotor carried 43 flails and was driven at 142 rpm by a driveshaft running down the right hand side of the tank. An innovation was the addition of cutters to the rotor that cut barbed wire and stopped the flail from becoming tangled. This feature made the Crab very effective at tearing up barbed wire obstacles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_obstacle). In the initial Crab design the flail arms were raised and lowered hydraulically to set the height of the flail. The Mark II version of the Crab, developed as "Contouring Crab", switched to a counterweighted jib that naturally assumed the right height in balance to the force exerted by the rotaating flail. This ensured mines buried under a dip in the ground would not be missed. The addition of a gearbox was required to maintain the correct flail speed, when the tank was travelling slower eg while climbing.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-5) A blast shield between the flail and the tank gave added protection from detonating mines. The hull machine gun was removed as the blast shield and flail blocked its field of fire. The Crab weighed 32 tons[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-Bovington-6) - around two tons more than a normal Sherman.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_flail#cite_note-4)

[BlairWitch749]

So while the land and air battle approaches, how might the Royal Navy be able to help.

I'm not an expert, but given the circumstances, I would think Admiral Cunningham would want to throw every submarine available at the Axis supply lines to try and do as much damage as possible and try to take down some of the reinforcements and replacements heading to North Africa.

Cunningham's fleet is a little thin at the moment both due to aggressive action in the med (sinking barham and ark royal, severely damaging valiant and queen elizabeth) and needing to juggle forces into the pacifc

the germans were able to successfully reinforce 2 months later when the situation was more hopeless and their airpower was more committed to other theaters (stalingrad was hotter)... malta could be suppressed with aggressive bombing 1 more time and tunisian ports could be used a la feb to april 42 to supplement tripoli to immediately bring in 6th panzer

[BlairWitch749]

Guderian will not have 6th panzer assembled and ready for combat in the desert (and that will be his only manuever force for the forseeable future) prior to monty's offensive jumping off, so monty's plan whilst clever will be wasted because guderian will only have scraps to counter attack with and probably won't bother sending the tanks forward till he has his mailed fist

Via ultra monty would know Guderian's approximate reinforcement schedule roughly... tactical defensive strategic offensive whilst a very effective strategy (particularly given British combat strengths and weaknesses) doesn't really work when the Germans can only send a weak battalion of panzers to counter attack... considering monty outnumbers them in tanks 10 to 1 he would be better off (as disasterously as this went for the British previously) aggressively pushing the offensive to capture as much ground as possible even at the risk of higher losses as opposed to cautious advance which lets guderian reinforce and bring up his reserves... getting at least to gambut (near tobruk) so that fighter aircraft can easily reach malta is absolutely critical to the long term annihilation of the axis presence in africa

[Hyperion]

Guderian will not have 6th panzer assembled and ready for combat in the desert (and that will be his only manuever force for the forseeable future) prior to monty's offensive jumping off, so monty's plan whilst clever will be wasted because guderian will only have scraps to counter attack with and probably won't bother sending the tanks forward till he has his mailed fist

Via ultra monty would know Guderian's approximate reinforcement schedule roughly... tactical defensive strategic offensive whilst a very effective strategy (particularly given British combat strengths and weaknesses) doesn't really work when the Germans can only send a weak battalion of panzers to counter attack... considering monty outnumbers them in tanks 10 to 1 he would be better off (as disasterously as this went for the British previously) aggressively pushing the offensive to capture as much ground as possible even at the risk of higher losses as opposed to cautious advance which lets guderian reinforce and bring up his reserves... getting at least to gambut (near tobruk) so that fighter aircraft can easily reach malta is absolutely critical to the long term annihilation of the axis presence in africa

Are you taking into consideration Italian X Corps.

Of the three corps level formations that make up Panzer Armee Afrika, Italian X Corps was the only major force not committed at Alam Halfa, both in OTL and ITTL.

Likewise, what about the armored division the Italians have deployed as reinforcements to replace XX Corps.

[BlairWitch749]

Are you taking into consideration Italian X Corps.

Of the three corps level formations that make up Panzer Armee Afrika, Italian X Corps was the only major force not committed at Alam Halfa, both in OTL and ITTL.

Likewise, what about the armored division the Italians have deployed as reinforcements to replace XX Corps.

Centauro utterly lacked the high levels of experience that Ariette had (which acted as a force multiplier and made up for a lot of their equipment shortcommings)

I can't imagine Guderian or more to the point the panzer army staff would trust them with much till they where blooded; whereas 6th panzer due to the high levels of experience and first class equipment could be expected to be an immediate force on the battlefield

[Hyperion]

Centauro utterly lacked the high levels of experience that Ariette had (which acted as a force multiplier and made up for a lot of their equipment shortcommings)

I can't imagine Guderian or more to the point the panzer army staff would trust them with much till they where blooded; whereas 6th panzer due to the high levels of experience and first class equipment could be expected to be an immediate force on the battlefield

Given the personal humiliation Mussolini seems to have taken from XX Corps being wiped out, what are the realistic chances that X Corps and the Centauro division might recieve orders from over Guderians head.

Guderian may have been a good soldier and a smart general officer, but I personally view anything that gets Mussolini mentioned as some point as having the possibility of the Italians doing something stupid.

Not all of the Italians where stupid, but when the guy at the top was retarded and looked like a living muppet, I don't discount the possibility of a battlefield ****up.

On a side note regarding muppet man, I want his headquarters blown to hell at some point in this timeline. Something so stupid is just begging to be blown up.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/blind_willie_mctell/FascistHQ.jpg

[BlairWitch749]

X corps and Centauro will be subordinated to Guderian's HQ so they will not be going off on battles that he sic sic Hitler don't approve of

Benny will rage that he wants alexandria taken and italy's military glory restored blah blah, but like Rommel before him, he will promptly run into a brick wall in Guderian who is more than happy to do whatever he wants and when challenged by the Italian establishment and military command to tell them to take it up with Hitler and leave him alone

[Snake Featherston]

arnim would have been first in line to take over 9th army is model was released for other duties


a small question based on what i brought up before

Guderian taking the position is somewhat unlikely as a standalone, especially if he is briefed on the true situation on the ground... he would demand divisions from the OKW reserve to reinforce the panzer army africa

if those divisions are taken from reserve, the battle of stalingrad may not develop the same way as hitler may decline against having the army tied up in a narrow area with no theater reserves

What reserves? Nazi armies didn't have any reserves in that section of the front, that's why they needed Romanians and Italians to guard their flanks and rear and were unable to use German forces. :confused:

[Cymraeg]

HQ, Panzerarmee Afrika, September 23rd 1942
The calendar was mocking him, he thought as he scowled at the map. He felt as if he was racing time itself and the feeling was not a pleasant one. Every day that passed was a day closer to the inevitable British attack. He could feel it growing on the Eastern horizon, with every report of new British units being spotted in parts of the line, of aerial reports of training exercises being run behind the British lines, and of water pipes being laid from the rear towards the British front lines. The latter worried him because the British were also building a number of what might be dummy ones as well.

That said, he had a feeling that he was starting to suspect where the British attack would fall – in the South. They were being clever, trying to pull the wool over his eyes, but if he was in their shoes he’d choose the South as well. More room there to attack, more room to outflank and destroy.

The only problem was that he was severely outnumbered and he winced at what had been lost at Alam Halfa. He was down to effectively just one Panzer division, the 21st. The 15th was growing slowly, but it was still far too weak. The same held with 90th Light. The brutal truth was that not enough resources were being diverted to their rebirth by Berlin. The pick of replacements and new tanks were being sent to Russia, where Case Blue was busy conquering what appeared to be large quantities of steppe. The two shattered German divisions in Egypt were getting an inadequate trickle. To makes matters worse, some of the replacement tanks were pitiful – some idiot had even sent 20 Mark IIs! They were being pulled out from front line service in Europe, but what the hell, why not send them to Egypt?

The 6th Panzer Division was at least on the way, but he had severe doubts about whether it would get to Egypt in time. It took time to move a panzer division by rail to a port, load it onto merchantmen, ship it to a friendly port on the other side of a sea, unload it and then send it up a long line of communication. After a number of delays, some of which he suspected were due to political shilly-shallying on the part of Berlin, it was due to be sent to Tripoli. Which was more than a thousand miles from the front at El Alamein!

He would have preferred it if the 6th had been sent to Benghazi or Tobruk, but the Italian Navy couldn’t guarantee that the ships would get to the former without suffering losses from British submarines. Tobruk, they said, was totally impossible. The port was too small and had been severely damaged. It was also far too close to the wolves of the Royal Navy and the RAF. If he wanted the 6th to be more or less intact it was Tripoli or nothing.

He had to admit that they had a point. Two ships loaded with tanks belonging to the Centauro had already been sunk. The Italian division was coming up from Tripoli in dribs and drabs and its tanks worried him a great deal. Some were the M13/40s, which were obsolete – and they were the best of the Italian tanks. There were also a lot of L6/40s. The best way to describe the latter was a glorified light tank/tin box/death trap. Even the lightest of the British tanks would have it for breakfast.

So, all he had at the moment at the El Alamein position at the moment was one panzer division – and oh he wished that Hitler hadn’t messed around with the composition of the panzer divisions, doubling their numbers by splitting each one in half – one German infantry division, the 164th Light, two Italian infantry corps, the Xth with three divisions and the XXIst with two divisions and the vanguard of an inexperienced Italian armoured division. If things got desperate he could also call up the shattered remnants of 15th Panzer and 90th Light, but that would be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Time, he needed time. And he knew that it was fast running out. When would the British attack?

[Cymraeg]

Hyperion, that building is just begging for a stick of bombs. :rolleyes:

[Cymraeg]

2159 Hours, 27th September 1942, Battery B, 220th Artillery Regiment, 164th Infantry Division
God’s teeth, but he hated the desert. During the day it was too hot and during the night it was too cold – like now. The worst thing was that he was just an hour into his guard duty and he had another three hours to go. Gunner Gottfried Zimmer moved the strap of his rifle to a slightly less sore spot on his shoulder and trudged on around the position. He could see the guns shining dully in the moonlight. There should have been four of them, but one had been destroyed months before and hadn’t been replaced. Come to think of it Number 2 should have been replaced a month ago – the breech block didn’t close properly on every third round.

He held his watch up to his face and squinted at it. 10pm. He sighed and then scratched carefully around the bandage covering his latest desert sore. Bloody flies.

Turning on his heel he walked back along his patrol. Perhaps a cigarette would keep him awake? He chewed his lip for a moment. The only problem was that the ones in his last remaining packet were British. ‘V’ cigarettes to be precise. They were like smoking rolled-up camel shit.

Perhaps a cigarette might be a good idea. He pulled the packet out, shook one loose and transferred it to his lips. As he pulled out a pack of matches he squinted at the horizon and wondered vaguely when the Tommies were going to attack. As he struck a light and lit his cigarette he froze. The Eastern horizon had lit up like a forest fire. As the sound of incoming artillery rounds howled downwards he threw himself into the nearest slit trench and cowered. Well, at least he had his answer.

[Tyg]

As he struck a light and lit his cigarette he froze. The Eastern horizon had lit up like a forest fire.

EARLIER:

Monty: Now, the signal for our attack may be some time in coming, but we must be patient.

Random Officer: What signal are we waiting for?

Monty: Our attack will only begin when someone at the German lines lights a British cigarette. That point shall be the main target for artillery. By God and the King, that man will pay for taking our fags!

Officer: He'll only be glad he didn't take the tea.

[Paulo the Limey]

EARLIER:

Monty: Now, the signal for our attack may be some time in coming, but we must be patient.

Random Officer: What signal are we waiting for?

Monty: Our attack will only begin when someone at the German lines lights a British cigarette. That point shall be the main target for artillery. By God and the King, that man will pay for taking our fags!

Officer: He'll only be glad he didn't take the tea.

Brilliant! :D

[Cymraeg]

EARLIER:

Monty: Now, the signal for our attack may be some time in coming, but we must be patient.

Random Officer: What signal are we waiting for?

Monty: Our attack will only begin when someone at the German lines lights a British cigarette. That point shall be the main target for artillery. By God and the King, that man will pay for taking our fags!

Officer: He'll only be glad he didn't take the tea.

ROFL... well, hopefully he won't feel too paranoid afterwards! :D

[trekchu]

Royal Artillery! Yes! (http://youtu.be/yCBHtf4hYWQ)

[Cymraeg]

0315 Hours, 28th September 1942, HQ, Panzerarmee Afrika
Guderian winced as the sound of the bombardment was punctuated by a louder, deeper noise that probably meant that an ammunition dump somewhere had exploded. The noise was incredible – it sounded as bad as any of the heavy bombardments that he’d heard on the Western Front in the Great War. He’d heard from Bayerlein and Westphal that the Royal Artillery was one of the best and most professional arms of the British Army. Well, by the sound and fury that was lashing the Axis forces at the moment he’d guess that they were just as good as he’d been told, possibly better.

His staff were doing their best to get an appreciation of the true situation, but it wasn’t at all easy. The British shells had started falling on his artillery and the fixed fortifications and had then added his other formations to their list of targets. Everything was being lashed with high explosive and a frequent casualty was the telephone lines that snaked their way across the desert. It didn’t take much to sever them and his signal staff were pulling their hair out in frustration at the flickering mess that was the communications network. Breaks in the line were being repaired, but then others would appear and as a result all they had to go on so far was bits and pieces of information. They’d started sending despatch riders out, something that worried him. The bombardment was so heavy that he had severe doubts that many of those men would return alive.

What they did know was that while the bombardment was heavy all along the line it was particularly bad in the North, and he paused to reflect with bitter admiration the cunning of his adversary. It wasn’t often that he’d been fooled by an enemy. Montgomery had achieved that.

Guderian glowered at the map and then sighed, trying to ignore the dull ache that had appeared in his chest that evening. His forces were being heavily battered – and they were stretched thin at best. In the North he had the 164th Division, which was dug in in the minefields. That at least, was at full strength. So was the next division to the South, the Italian Trento. Then there was the Bologna, and beyond that the Brescia. However, that was the good news, because south of the Brescia all he had were scraps. Well dug in scraps, with a large part of his artillery, but still scraps, which was why he’d placed the 21st Panzer Division and the vanguard of the Centauro there. The Pavia were in the best shape – they’d been badly knocked about in the July battles. The Folgore were at half-strength at best. And then there was the remnant of Ramcke’s Brigade of paratroopers, which were at battalion strength at best. Further south was Von Luck’s reconnaissance group, which had made it almost intact out of the Battle of Alam Halfa by the skin of their teeth.

So far, based on the location of the heaviest part of the bombardment, along with the confused and fragmentary reports that they were getting, the British seemed to be attacking in the North, driving a number of cleared passages in the minefields whilst engaging the set defences anywhere near those areas. A lot of outposts weren’t reporting in, possibly because of the breaks in the telephone lines. It was also possible that those outposts had been attacked and destroyed by the British, who weren’t skimping on the use of force.

And finally, the RAF were making a total nuisance of themselves on the coast road, attacking his logistical tail and his supply bases to his rear. He rubbed his forehead tiredly. When the dawn came he’d have a better idea of what was going on – and where exactly to counter-attack.

[Hyperion]

And finally, the RAF were making a total nuisance of themselves on the coast road, attacking his logistical tail and his supply bases to his rear. He rubbed his forehead tiredly. When the dawn came he’d have a better idea of what was going on – and where exactly to counter-attack.

This of course depends on what he has to counter-attack with.

[whatisinaname]

I am really enjoying this story, keep it up :)

[Tyg]

Might the British be thinking about trying to get the rest of the Regia Marina to come out and play? It would be awfully convenient to free up the RN to more actively support Malta and Monty, or do a little bit more interdiction of Italian shipping.

[Cymraeg]

0330 Hours, 28th September 1942, One mile East of Objective ‘Kidney’
The night had so far been an excellent example of that hoary old oxymoron organised chaos, Lt Harry Chapman thought savagely as he looked down at the dimly lit face of the compass. He wondered for the umpteenth point that night if he should have taken up that chance to join the Long Range Desert Group johnnies on one of their jaunts around the desert. Instead he’d been the first idiot to volunteer to help the engineers out with their map reading on the night of the assault on the Jerry lines.

So far it had gone rather better than he could have hoped, but that wasn’t saying a hell of a lot. The flail tanks that had been assigned to his sector had broken down one after the other, with the exception of Old Sparkie, an arthritic Matilda Mark 2 commanded by an all-Welsh crew of lunatics. He knew that someone up the chain of command had named the flail tanks ‘Scorpions’. Well, they certainly terrified him at times, even when he was safely behind them. Old Sparkie kicked up so much smoke and dust as it pounded its path through the minefields that he was amazed that the crew had been able to steer in a straight line. Of course it had turned out that they were navigating with their own compass and with all the hatches shut. That had terrified him as well, but the overall impact of the great moving cloud of dust, backlit by the moon and the flashes from the guns and with the constant accompaniment of mines exploding under its less than gentle ministrations had been enough to scare three separate posts of German soldiers into rapid surrender.

Of course that had come to an end when Old Sparkie’s flail had finally given up the ghost half a mile back, prompting a sheepish Sergeant Griffiths to tell him that the old girl couldn’t go any further. He wished that they’d had some of the Polish mine detectors as well, but they’d gone to other units. Besides, he’d wondered if they’d be able to do a proper job with so much shrapnel strewn all over the desert from the fighting in recent months.

So out had come the bayonets and they’d joined the rest of the unit in the slow, steady and terrifying job of walking and prodding the ground carefully, identifying the mines by touch and then having them carefully checked for booby-traps and then equally carefully disabled. Luckily a lot of the mines had been British ones that the Jerries had captured and then reused. There weren’t that many of those nasty little Jerry bouncing ones. They were very bad news and he’d heard explosions and screams off to either side and various points in the night. They’d had their fair share of casualties that night.

He squinted down at the compass again. He could see the objective up ahead, lit by the moonlight as well as the fire of the heavy guns as they poured high explosives on a target on and next to it. They could do it. The Jerry minefields hadn’t been as thick as they’d first thought, plus their artillery was obviously still reeling from the walloping they’d received from the guns of the RA.

He turned his head and looked to the South-East where he could see and hear the explosions along what looked like the Miteiriya Ridge, before looking back at Kidney Ridge. A mile to go and three hours to the pre-dawn light. They could do it. My god, he thought, after all the balls-ups we’ve had over the past year and a half, were things going right for once?

A bullet whined over his head and he shook his head. “Tempting fate again,” he muttered and then raised his voice. “Nearly there boys! One last push before dawn so we can get the six-pounders up!” Speaking of which, they should be on their way already.

[Hoyahoo9]

Man, you're good. This is brilliantly written. Question: Is this typical of the mechanical breakdown rate of the British desert flail tanks, or is this unit just having a particularly bad day?

[BlairWitch749]

I'm a bit dubious of Guderian trying to mount a counterattack with so little striking power and his line forces being so weak. Based on how he wanted to conduct battles following his return to active duty in otl, I would assume that he would violate his own pelt don't piddle rule and parce out the tanks in company size penny packets to support the infantry whilst doing everything possible to build a stable line in the rear where he could fall back on the arriving elements of 6th panzer... a la operation mars

[Cymraeg]

Man, you're good. This is brilliantly written. Question: Is this typical of the mechanical breakdown rate of the British desert flail tanks, or is this unit just having a particularly bad day?

Sadly it was typical because the Matildas were converted on the fly. They had a lot of trouble with the power units for the flail, plus the dust the flail kicked up clogged the engine filters. On the plus side the very sight of them terrified Axis troops seeing them for the first time.

[Cymraeg]

I'm a bit dubious of Guderian trying to mount a counterattack with so little striking power and his line forces being so weak. Based on how he wanted to conduct battles following his return to active duty in otl, I would assume that he would violate his own pelt don't piddle rule and parce out the tanks in company size penny packets to support the infantry whilst doing everything possible to build a stable line in the rear where he could fall back on the arriving elements of 6th panzer... a la operation mars

"Klockern, nicht kleckern". The problem is that Guderian has been forbidden from withdrawing and he's going to have a lot on his plate.

[BlairWitch749]

"Klockern, nicht kleckern". The problem is that Guderian has been forbidden from withdrawing and he's going to have a lot on his plate.

forbidden from withdrawing is an order that guderian probably wouldn't pay much attention to, he has been around too long and had too many bad experiences with that in Russia; plus as the political hack he was, he knows that his position is held for propaganda as well as command reasons, so the resignation threats would come fast and furious or he would just go to the Hube/Model do whatever I want while telling high command to go fuck themselves (or just strait not even reading their orders) style of command

[Cymraeg]

forbidden from withdrawing is an order that guderian probably wouldn't pay much attention to, he has been around too long and had too many bad experiences with that in Russia; plus as the political hack he was, he knows that his position is held for propaganda as well as command reasons, so the resignation threats would come fast and furious or he would just go to the Hube/Model do whatever I want while telling high command to go fuck themselves (or just strait not even reading their orders) style of command

He he, yes, but I have something up my sleeve for Heinz.

[Cymraeg]

0930 Hours, 28th September 1942, HQ, Panzerarmee Afrika
Bayerlein looked terrible, his head wrapped in a bandage and his left arm in a splint, but he was pencilling in the latest situation on the map with a remarkably steady hand. Guderian had to admit that Rommel had chosen his staff very well indeed. Bayerlein, von Mellenthin and Westphal were all excellent. Unfortunately right now they were excellent at passing on bad news.

Dawn had brought no respite from the British shelling, which was obviously being carefully targeted by aerial reconnaissance and supplemented by total British command of the air. He’d never fought under skies controlled completely by the enemy before. So far he wasn’t liking it much. Appeals to the Luftwaffe for more support had brought up more bad news – the German and Italian airfields were under attack from the air and were struggling just to try and protect their own airspace.

He looked back at the red marks on the map. The news on the ground wasn’t very good either. The British had used the barrage to disrupt the Axis artillery and infantry formations in the minefields – casualties had been heavy. In fact the German artillery in general had also been targeted, as had every Axis formation, both major and minor. The panzers were also receiving some particular attention, especially from the bombers.

Information was still trickling in, but so far it seemed that the British had driven two passages through the minefields. The northernmost had been cut straight West to the kidney-shaped ridge to the South-West of Tel el Eisa. The second one had been cut south of the first to the Western part of Miteiriya Ridge. In the process they’d cut the Trento Division into three parts and savaged the southern half of the 164th Division. According to the latest reports from the Trento the British were now widening the corridors and ferrying troops up.

And he had very few cards in his hand. He had the 21st Panzer and the vanguard of the Centauro – and that was it really. 15th Panzer was miles to his rear and besides had a grand total of 35 tanks. So he had to think very hard about the best way to play those cards. He had two real choices. The first was to move 21st Panzer and the Centauro – now under the command of Nehring’s replacement von Thoma, who’d barely had a chance to get his kit unpacked – and assault the Southernmost British penetration at once, before they had a chance to dig in and consolidate their position. They could then work on dealing with the other penetration. Of course that depended on if they could throw the British back.

The second option was one that ran very much against his personal preferences, but was something that he had to consider anyway as he had to consider the options. This would be a defensive battle. What he could do was scatter his tanks amidst his defensive formations and use them to hold the British.

He had to admit that he instinctively hated option two. It went against everything that he felt was integral to panzer generalship. It negated speed, movement and decision and risked everything on the kind of grinding defensive battle that he had to admit he didn’t have the numerical strength to fight.

Guderian ran his fingers across his moustache and sighed, hoping that the ache in his chest would go away. Too much strain, too much worry. It had to be option one. He’d thought about it a lot over the past few hours. Attack them now before they could consolidate and hope that the shock forced them back. It was the best of a number of very bad options. Boot them, don’t splatter them.

“Bayerlein,” he said quietly.

“Sir?”

“Tell von Thoma to start moving North at once. He is to assault Miteiriya Ridge as soon as possible.”

“Yes sir,” Bayerlein said.

Time to roll the dice.

[BlairWitch749]

i just had a thought (perhaps worthy of a minor retcon)

if 15th panzer is chopped into a shell, would Guderian not be better off merging them with 21st panzer so that he has one organized strike force; the panzer army africa did this in otl in tunisia putting all the remaining tanks (as all the divisions became shells) into a single improvised brigade to create a strike force... Guderian himself did this during typhoon by putting all the weak panzer brigades from like 5 divisions under Eberbach so he had one formation capable of dolling out a beating

thoma is a long time friend of guderians and had served under him as recently as barbarossa commanding the 17th panzer division which was part of 2nd panzer army; so command cohearance should be excellent

if i was guderian and moving forward with the attack; i would use the africa corps standard tactic in conditions of air inferiority, a dusk attack which leapfrogs at guns covered by artillery with the tanks bringing up the rear in the center...with the staff being well organized around guderian there is a good shot they could at least inflict some harm in their assault... that said guderian has to know he is attacking a battleship with a rowboat and that the second he meets solid resistance or organized defensive lines that he must break off what he is doing immediately

[Hyperion]

i just had a thought (perhaps worthy of a minor retcon)

if 15th panzer is chopped into a shell, would Guderian not be better off merging them with 21st panzer so that he has one organized strike force; the panzer army africa did this in otl in tunisia putting all the remaining tanks (as all the divisions became shells) into a single improvised brigade to create a strike force... Guderian himself did this during typhoon by putting all the weak panzer brigades from like 5 divisions under Eberbach so he had one formation capable of dolling out a beating

thoma is a long time friend of guderians and had served under him as recently as barbarossa commanding the 17th panzer division which was part of 2nd panzer army; so command cohearance should be excellent

if i was guderian and moving forward with the attack; i would use the africa corps standard tactic in conditions of air inferiority, a dusk attack which leapfrogs at guns covered by artillery with the tanks bringing up the rear in the center...with the staff being well organized around guderian there is a good shot they could at least inflict some harm in their assault... that said guderian has to know he is attacking a battleship with a rowboat and that the second he meets solid resistance or organized defensive lines that he must break off what he is doing immediately

I like that idea, or something along that line of thought.

Take either 15th or 21st Panzer, whichever division is the least wrecked, and then place the remains of the other Panzer division, as well as whatever is left of the 90th Light Division, and try to reform a single division with those forces.

90th Light and whichever Panzer Division ends up being merged into the other can then be either officially written off, or have their colors and such packed up and have the divisions reformed from scratch in Germany if the higher ups still want units with those banners.

While Guderian might do some damage, I see no real way he can win this. I think he can still give the British a bloody nose if he plays his cards right, but in the long run, I think he is better off holding the British until he can evacuate as much of his army as possibly back to Tobruk or somewhere safe in Libya.

[whatisinaname]

Will the 501 Heavy Panzer Battlion still be deployed to Africa?

According to this link http://www.alanhamby.com/unithist.shtml#501 (http://www.alanhamby.com/unithist.shtml#501) 20 Tigers and 16 PzKpfw IIIs were ready by October 42.

So instead of being sent to southern France during October they could be sent to Italy then to Africa, though this would not help Guderianin the short term?

[PMN1]

JUut a thought, but where are Spike Milligan and Harry Seacombe?

[PMN1]

Man, you're good. This is brilliantly written. Question: Is this typical of the mechanical breakdown rate of the British desert flail tanks, or is this unit just having a particularly bad day?

Very typical unfortunately.

[Cymraeg]

1500 Hours, 28th September, Miteiriya Ridge
The Panzer Mark III was still burning as Corporal Thomas McIntyre peered cautiously over the shield of the 6-pounder. Thank god the distant sound of screaming had stopped. He hated it when that happened – the dreams afterwards were never nice.

“Teas’s up,” came a grunt from behind him and he turned to see Gunner Robertson scramble across the rocky outcrop with three battered tin mugs in his hand.

“Thanks,” McIntyre said as he took the proffered mug and sipped at the hot liquid. “The silly buggers have pulled back,” he said after a moment of silent satisfaction at the taste of the tea.

Robertson and Kelly, who’d been taking care of some personal business in the sand just to the North, nodded soberly. “I thought they’d pull back,” Kelly said, putting his shovel down and drinking his tea thistily. “They probably thought we hadn’t got the guns up. Silly sods.”

McIntyre looked back down the ridge. The Jerries had lost at least 10 tanks in front of their position, three to his gun alone. Then they’d turned tail and run for it, which had been the smart thing to do. He looked up at the sun, assessed the angle and then pursed his lips thoughtfully. “If they’re smart they’ll come again at dusk, when we have the sun in our bloody eyes,” he said. “That’s the way they should have done it. I just hope that Campbell brings up enough ammo.”

“He will – supply trucks have come up,” Robertson answered. “Jerries are trying to shell the passage back to our lines apparently. Could be worse.”

“Yes, it could,” McIntyre said, before going back to the gun and squinting carefully to the West. “Take a look along that line boys. We’ll be seeing some business when the sun goes down.”

[Cymraeg]

1530 Hours 28th September 1942, HQ, Panzerarmee Afrika
“Damn it,” Guderian muttered as he stared down at the report from von Thoma. The attack on the ridge had not gone well, but then at least he hadn’t done the stupid thing and pressed it too hard. As soon as he’d realised that the British had anti-tank guns in force on Miteiriya Ridge he’d pulled back. Unfortunately he’d still lost 15 precious panzers in the course of the attack. He sighed. There had been a time when he would have written off the loss of such numbers as being natural attrition. Now he resented every single one of them.

“Bayerlein,” he said. “Do you agree with von Thoma’s appreciation?”

“Yes sir,” Bayerlein replied. “Normally the British attack in the morning, with the sun behind them and we attack in the evening, with the sun behind us. If we alter the line of attack at the same time, so that we hit the Westernmost tip of the ridge, then we might have a greater chance of success. It will give us more time to bring up more artillery from the South as well.”

Guderian looked at the map stonily. “I concur,” he said after a while. “We have to try to throw them back today. If we can’t then we’ll surrender the initiative. Tell von Thoma to attack again at dusk – and find out what the hell happened to the Centauro. They should have attacked the ridge but we’ve heard nothing from them.” He paused. “And tell 15th Panzer and 90th Light to start moving up at once. I’m going to merge them into a battle group and place them under the command of von Luck. Tell him to start moving up at once as well. Oh and Bayerlein?”

“Sir?”

“I want you to start looking at the best possible defensive position to our rear. If we have to pull back then I want it to be to a position where we can stand and fight properly.”

“Yes herr Generaloberst.”

[naraht]

Isn't that guy to the right Mel Brooks??? :D

It does look spookily like him...

[naraht]

Guderian glowered at the map and then sighed, trying to ignore the dull ache that had appeared in his chest that evening.

So who becomes the Axis commander when Guderian dies of a heart attack?

[Some Bloke]

Didn´t Rommel´s second in Command die of a heart attack IOTL?

[Cymraeg]

Didn´t Rommel´s second in Command die of a heart attack IOTL?

You mean Stumme, Rommel's replacement when he was on sick leave in Germany. On the night of the first attack his staff car was hit by British machinegun fire that killed one of his staff officers. Stumme jumped onto the running board and told his driver to get the hell out of there, but when they finally stopped Stumme wasn't there - he'd had a heart attack and fallen off the car.

[Domoviye]

Just read this all in one go. Very impressive.

[trekchu]

You mean Stumme, Rommel's replacement when he was on sick leave in Germany. On the night of the first attack his staff car was hit by British machinegun fire that killed one of his staff officers. Stumme jumped onto the running board and told his driver to get the hell out of there, but when they finally stopped Stumme wasn't there - he'd had a heart attack and fallen off the car.


This. This is the sort of thing that no self-respecting author could make up and use. No one would believe it. :D

[titulus regius]

This. This is the sort of thing that no self-respecting author could make up and use. No one would believe it. :D
Agreed. It would be declared ASBish on fora like this one.

[trekchu]

Agreed. It would be declared ASBish on fora like this one.


Mind you, if I do use stuff like that it always has an OTL precedent which is always cited in the footnotes, something along the lines of "True! THis happened to General X in Battle Y in year ZABC."

[Cymraeg]

I'm tempted to quote the last words of John Sedgwick - "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance. Arrghhh!" Now you just couldn't make that one up.

[trekchu]

Let's face it, Life will always be stranger than fiction.

[Cymraeg]

1655 Hours, 28th September 1942, Kidney Ridge
Sergeant Charles Calistan looked through the viewfinder of his 6-pounder in disbelief. “Jesus Christ almighty,” he said, shocked.

“What’s up Sarge?” asked Frazier worriedly.

“Italian tanks. The crap little ones,” Calistan grunted as he hunched back down and then concentrated on aiming the gun. “Looks like they think they’re on manoeuvres in Rome or something. They keep dressing their lines. Silly sods.” And then he sent a 6-pounder shell screaming down from the ridge straight into the hull of the nearest advancing L6/40, which brewed up with a horrifying swiftness.

It took 15 minutes of savage losses before the tanks finally broke off the attack, whereupon rifle-wielding British infantry swooped down and gathered up the few Italian tank crew who hadn’t been killed in their vehicles and who hadn’t tried to hitch a lift with their retreating fellow countrymen. They were almost all wounded and almost all terrified, but Calistan later heard Colonel Turner telling Major Bird that the tanks had been from the Centauro Division and that apparently they hadn’t been assaulting the ridge that they thought they had been. He’d never heard of them before. Their tanks were still crap though.

And then two hours later all hell was let loose to their south.

[BlairWitch749]

guderian is a likely candidate to die from a heart attack under the circumstances; but let's hope he doesn't just to keep the story interesting


tidbits

Rommel in this battle lost a shitload of italian infantry because he tried vainly for 3 days to get hitler and benny to authorize him to fall back to Fuka 60 miles to the rear (resulting in the infamous Kesselring you should treat the stand and die order as advice and not an order remark :D)

Guderian having been on the bad end of a stand and die order in Russia would just ignore it and do whatever he wanted; on top of that the Panzer army is significantly weaker than otl from the first battle so he has little to stand and die with anyway

smart strategy is to have the arriving elements of 6th panzer mass at fuka and set up a rally point for the panzer army as they retreat (mine fields, prepositioned anti tank traps and ammo caches etc)

[Hyperion]

guderian is a likely candidate to die from a heart attack under the circumstances; but let's hope he doesn't just to keep the story interesting


tidbits

Rommel in this battle lost a shitload of italian infantry because he tried vainly for 3 days to get hitler and benny to authorize him to fall back to Fuka 60 miles to the rear (resulting in the infamous Kesselring you should treat the stand and die order as advice and not an order remark :D)

Guderian having been on the bad end of a stand and die order in Russia would just ignore it and do whatever he wanted; on top of that the Panzer army is significantly weaker than otl from the first battle so he has little to stand and die with anyway

smart strategy is to have the arriving elements of 6th panzer mass at fuka and set up a rally point for the panzer army as they retreat (mine fields, prepositioned anti tank traps and ammo caches etc)

Something I'm curious to see if this timeline continues far enough concerning Hitler.

I wonder how the earlier death of Rommel and a possible earlier defeat in North Africa might shake Hitler's confidence. This could see him either taking a step back and listening to his generals a bit more, at least for a while. Or this could see him micromanaging the war effort even more, even sooner.

[Cymraeg]

1830 Hours 28th September, Three miles East of the Rahman Track.
Guderian peered worriedly through his binoculars into the gathering darkness to the East. The darkness wasn’t what was worrying him, it was the almost constant explosions that were deluging his forces that was setting his teeth on edge. 21st Panzer and the Centauro’s vanguard (or at least what remained of the vanguard after its idiot commander di Bergolo had gotten lost and assaulted the wrong ridge) were going in again against the British positions at the Westernmost tip of Miteiriya Ridge. It was painful to watch.

He’d done his best to get them as much artillery support as possible, but the Axis guns had been badly battered even before the start of the British attack. They’d taken terrible losses from the initial British barrage during the night, plus the bombing during the day and he was afraid that they’d taken more damage from the British counter-battery fire that had fallen on them as they’d hit the ridge.

The good news was that the British guns had stopped firing at his own guns. The bad news was that they were firing at the Axis tanks as they went in. He had to admit that he was impressed. He’d heard that the British guns could achieve an impressive concentration of shells when they used the artillery of an entire Corps. Well, he was seeing the impact of that now. He could feel it as well.

“The British have more anti-tank guns on the ridge sir,” von Mellenthin in a hollow voice. “I can see their muzzle flashes. And… I think they’re hitting our panzers.”

“Von Thoma is reporting that he’s taking heavy losses sir,” Westphal said from the radio station. “The Italians especially.”

Damn. He’d been hoping that the setting sun would distract the British anti-tank gunners enough to let the panzers get close enough to their lines to hurt the bastards. He thought very hard and very fast. Surprise was always a difficult commodity to create. They’d failed in this instance. If they were going to regain the initiative then they needed to have sufficient forces in hand.

“Tell von Thoma to pull back at once,” he said hoarsely. “We’re going to have to try again tomorrow, but in a different place and with von Luck’s forces.”

“Yes sir, said Westphal as he relayed the orders. Then he looked up. “Sir, FeldMarschall Kesselring has arrived at PanzerArmee Afrika headquarters.”

“Good,” Guderian muttered as he reluctantly tore his eyes away from the explosions to the East. “I need to talk to him about our reinforcements – or what we’re not getting.”

[BlairWitch749]

1830 Hours 28th September, Three miles East of the Rahman Track.
Guderian peered worriedly through his binoculars into the gathering darkness to the East. The darkness wasn’t what was worrying him, it was the almost constant explosions that were deluging his forces that was setting his teeth on edge. 21st Panzer and the Centauro’s vanguard (or at least what remained of the vanguard after its idiot commander di Bergolo had gotten lost and assaulted the wrong ridge) were going in again against the British positions at the Westernmost tip of Miteiriya Ridge. It was painful to watch.

He’d done his best to get them as much artillery support as possible, but the Axis guns had been badly battered even before the start of the British attack. They’d taken terrible losses from the initial British barrage during the night, plus the bombing during the day and he was afraid that they’d taken more damage from the British counter-battery fire that had fallen on them as they’d hit the ridge.

The good news was that the British guns had stopped firing at his own guns. The bad news was that they were firing at the Axis tanks as they went in. He had to admit that he was impressed. He’d heard that the British guns could achieve an impressive concentration of shells when they used the artillery of an entire Corps. Well, he was seeing the impact of that now. He could feel it as well.

“The British have more anti-tank guns on the ridge sir,” von Mellenthin in a hollow voice. “I can see their muzzle flashes. And… I think they’re hitting our panzers.”

“Von Thoma is reporting that he’s taking heavy losses sir,” Westphal said from the radio station. “The Italians especially.”

Damn. He’d been hoping that the setting sun would distract the British anti-tank gunners enough to let the panzers get close enough to their lines to hurt the bastards. He thought very hard and very fast. Surprise was always a difficult commodity to create. They’d failed in this instance. If they were going to regain the initiative then they needed to have sufficient forces in hand.

“Tell von Thoma to pull back at once,” he said hoarsely. “We’re going to have to try again tomorrow, but in a different place and with von Luck’s forces.”

“Yes sir, said Westphal as he relayed the orders. Then he looked up. “Sir, FeldMarschall Kesselring has arrived at PanzerArmee Afrika headquarters.”

“Good,” Guderian muttered as he reluctantly tore his eyes away from the explosions to the East. “I need to talk to him about our reinforcements – or what we’re not getting.”


That conversation should be priceless

HG: Hello Al, hows your family good to see you, it;s been a while yea not since Orel 41 yea yea... so my men are being bombed 10x a day and my supply lines are in taters and the men have shitty morale because they are getting the fuck bombed out of them with the LW not appearing to fight back; we need help
AK: Oh Heinz you worry to much, everything is great, have you gone sunbathing near the sea yet
HG: No I haven't had time for that, my army is locked in a death battle and getting destroyed from the air, you are the supreme commander for the theater can you get hitler and mussolini to give us more support or can you get the regia marina to do more about getting supplies to the forward ports; we are about to be totally destroyed if you don't do something
AK: Yea, yea I'll work on that, listen I was just in Rome and I got this awesome cappochino maker, it tastes fucking delicious, do you want some?

Guderian then decides it may be a nice idea to walk into an artillery barrage :rolleyes:

[whatisinaname]

Looks like Guderian will have to pull back soon, as he is running out of options?

[Hyperion]

So how much is left of the mighty Centauro division.

At this point, even if the British do not follow to closely, I think Guderian will probably have to pull the army back across the Libyan border at the very least.

Guderian may have been a good general, but having the learn and adjust to the North African theater this much this fast, there is only so much even the best leaders can do at times, and sometimes the best thing they can do is realize they are in trouble and withdraw to save their army.

[Cymraeg]

2200 Hours, 28th September 1942, HQ, Panzerarmee Afrika
By the time that Guderian had finished his appreciation of the situation on the El Alamein line the smile on FeldMarschall Albert Kesselring’s face had been wiped away and replaced with a frown of concern. The map did not look good. So far, as Guderian had pointed out, the situation was not looking good. The British attack had effectively destroyed the Trento Division and had badly battered the southern end of the 164th Division. To make matters worse for the latter the Australian 9th Division was also battering a hole in its centre.

The armoured attacks on the British positions had so far achieved nothing, apart from the blunting of the edge of the 21st Panzer and the further weakening of the Centauro, although the rest of the Centauro was continuing to dribble in as it arrived from Tripoli.

The supply situation was also worrying him. Fuel was becoming scarce – which he pointed out to Kesselring acerbically.

“I realise that, Guderian,” Kesselring replied. “The Commando Supremo has assured me, repeatedly, that they will ship out as much fuel as possible in fast tankers. The Proserpina tanker will arrive in Benghazi in a day and a half. The fuel will then be sent up as soon as possible – I’ll even have some of it flown up.”

Guderian did some rough sums in his head involving the needs of his panzers and the amount that could be transported in planes. He came up with an answer that he did not find pleasing.

“Can’t it be shipped to Tobruk? We need that fuel as soon as possible.”

Kesselring’s smile, which had been creeping back onto his face, slipped off it again. “That would be… risky,” he said quietly. “I could order it however.”

“There is also the question of 6th Panzer,” Guderian pointed out. “When is it to arrive and where?”

Kesselring blinked at him. “Advance elements are already heading towards Tripoli,” he said. “And-”

But Guderian broke in abruptly. “With all due respect, that’s too far away. It will take several weeks to get the division assembled and then moved up to here. We don’t have that long – I cannot guarantee how long I can hold this position. The British are probably widening the passages they’ve punched in our minefields even as we speak. We need more men to hold the line – that or we have to pull back to the nearest defensible position.”

This got Kesselring’s eyebrows shooting up. “Surely it’s too soon to speak of pulling back!”

“I am informing you of our options. The British are attacking us hard, before we’ve had a chance to rebuild our forces after the disastrous events at Alam Halfa. I need more men, more panzers, more guns and above all else more supplies. More planes as well – the Luftwaffe here is being shot out of the skies above us.”

He could tell that this last comment had raised Kesselring’s hackles and he didn’t regret that fact for a moment. He was more than familiar with Kesselring’s previous supply promises and claims about the superiority of the Luftwaffe. More often than not they had not been backed up with actual results.

“So where do you want the 6th Panzer sent then?” Kesselring asked icily.

Guderian looked at the map. “Can it be sent to Benghazi? Or Tobruk?”

Kesselring’s eyebrows did that upwards thing again. “Tobruk harbour is operating on a minimal basis at the moment,” he said. “It can take single ships, but more than that is… problematic.”

“I need those men. And I need those panzers.” Guderian stared at Kesselring, whose face was shining with sweat suddenly.

“Very well,” Kesselring said hoarsely. “I’ll pass on your request to the Comando Supremo.”

The thunder of artillery, which had been a constant muttering on the horizon suddenly picked up in intensity and Kesselring and Guderian both jerked their heads to the East in response.

“Please do so,” Guderian muttered quietly. “Time is of the essence.”

[BlairWitch749]

It would have been nifty if Guderian could have talked smiling Al into a super fast super secret run into mersah matruh with 6th panzer; although that involves more balls than sickle cut x20

Kesselring has considerable resources still on the mainland at this point in otl, and he carries A LOT of pull with fatboy HG... I could see him demanding aircraft from home defense/france/other theaters; hell even some support being stripped from case blue forces to suppress Malta one more time and fly a thick top cover for 6th panzer's transports... Guderian shouldn't bring 6th panzer all the way up; it'll fuck up his supply situation even worse, they should stage at Fuka or points West, he has to know he isn't going to be able to stay in position where he is for any prolonged period of time

[Cymraeg]

It would have been nifty if Guderian could have talked smiling Al into a super fast super secret run into mersah matruh with 6th panzer; although that involves more balls than sickle cut x20

Kesselring has considerable resources still on the mainland at this point in otl, and he carries A LOT of pull with fatboy HG... I could see him demanding aircraft from home defense/france/other theaters; hell even some support being stripped from case blue forces to suppress Malta one more time and fly a thick top cover for 6th panzer's transports... Guderian shouldn't bring 6th panzer all the way up; it'll fuck up his supply situation even worse, they should stage at Fuka or points West, he has to know he isn't going to be able to stay in position where he is for any prolonged period of time

I think that Mersa Matruh would be far too far for a run for 6th Panzer. I looked at the map, and remembered the losses that the tankers took. It would be very nasty indeed. :eek:

[Hyperion]

At this point, if Guderian can't find a way to stop the British, or if the British don't do something stupid themselves that Guderian can capitalize on.

Even if the 6th Panzer and what's left of the Centauro arrive in full and ready to go, there may not be much of an army left for them to reinforce.

At this point, irregardless of what Kesselring, or the brass in Rome or Berlin say, if Guderian is smart, he should definitely look at planning to fall back, if necessary back across the Libyan border.

It might not go over well with the higher ups, but I don't think Guderian is stupid enough to stand and fight if the British have a serious chance to destroy what is left of his army.

[BlairWitch749]

At this point, if Guderian can't find a way to stop the British, or if the British don't do something stupid themselves that Guderian can capitalize on.

Even if the 6th Panzer and what's left of the Centauro arrive in full and ready to go, there may not be much of an army left for them to reinforce.

At this point, irregardless of what Kesselring, or the brass in Rome or Berlin say, if Guderian is smart, he should definitely look at planning to fall back, if necessary back across the Libyan border.

It might not go over well with the higher ups, but I don't think Guderian is stupid enough to stand and fight if the British have a serious chance to destroy what is left of his army.

Guderian can't stop the British, Rommel in OTL (with stronger forces) knocked out hundreds of British tanks in this battle but was still down 800 to 90 by the end of it despite a knockout ratio approaching 4 to 1...and as time goes on that superiority just increases day after day. The only blessing Guderian will have is 6th panzer; which make no mistake is a blessing. Those 160 long barrelled panzer 4's and 36 long barrelled stugg's plus the 36 mobile 88mm guns plus the experienced personel represent the strongest striking force the africa corps has ever possessed. Monty at the start of the battle had 250ish combat ready shermans (which are the only tanks he has that are competitive with 6th panzer's forces; he has to have lost some in the fighting; at the start of the battle he had 80ist in rear depots being desert proofed and used for training; I don't know what scale his next shipment was or it's date

[Cymraeg]

Midnight, 28th/29th September, 9th Australian Division HQ
Lt-General Leslie Morshead brushed at his moustache with a thoughtful finger as he looked at the map. According to the latest reports his Australians were hammering a hole in the middle of the German 164th Division, helped by some excellent work from the guns behind them. They’d already isolated and destroyed at least two German battalions in the minefields, according to the badly shocked POWs that they’ve taken. Tel el Eisa was now fully in their hands, along with Thompson’s Post.

Their major objective was to tie the buggers down and stop them from attacking South, against the Highlanders on Kidney Ridge. Well, it was working so far. It was actually going better than that, the buggers seemed to be fixed in their defences and not looking to attack at all, which was giving him pause for thought. He had an ace up his sleeve, one that the bird-like little Pom in charge of the Army had allowed him. He’d been given Pip Roberts and his 22nd Armoured Brigade, along with carte blanche to use it as he saw fit. The rest of 7th Armoured was being fed into the bulge in the German lines to the South, to thicken the anti-tank defences on Miteiriya Ridge and Kidney Ridge, but he was holding Pip and his boys back for now.

He looked at the map again. His forces were hammering West again tonight, but he was wondering if a turn to the North might be better. If he could use his infantry and Pip’s tanks to cut a path to the sea, then he’d have at least a third of the 164th Division cut off, with its back to the sea, next to no supplies and no hope of breaking out, as long as he did his job properly that is.

[Cymraeg]

0015 Hours, 29th September 1942, Office of the Comando Supremo, Rome
“This is a very bad idea,” Ugo Cavallero whispered as he looked down at the decrypted message in his hand. Yes, he understood why Guderian was requesting that 6th Panzer should be sent to Tobruk. That way it could be deployed as quickly as possible. There were, however, two problems. The first was that Tobruk had been very badly battered by the war so far, with its port facilities having been largely blown sky-high by British and South African engineers just before Rommel’s forces had taken the port. When combined with the various sunken ships from both sides that littered the harbour, that had made repairs difficult.

The second problem was the fact that the British forces in Malta were making a total pest of themselves at the moment. A combination of submarines and planes were gorging themselves on the Axis supply lines between Italy and North Africa, helped by their reconnaissance planes. He had to admit that they were very skilled. Their air chief, Park, had also been able to best Kesselring.

Which meant that sending ships to Tobruk was… unwise. But it would have to be done. He just hoped that enough ships would get through unscathed. Of course he could always order the Regia Marina to sortie to protect the convoy, but he knew that they wouldn’t have the balls to order a strong escort. Of course, they were handicapped by a fuel shortage, but still…

He stared out of the window. And then he picked up the telephone.

[Hyperion]

This is the problem I see with 6th Panzer.

It may be a fine division, with top quality soldiers and officers, and the best equipment available.

Which isn't going to do much good if a British or other allied submarine sends a couple of transports worth of men and equipment to the bottom.

Or if an attack by the RAF destroys a transport or other equipment before it can be offloaded and set up.

[Astrodragon]

Has 6th Panzer already had its equipment modified for the desert?
Or was (as usualy hapened) it intended to do this as they arrived and the men got acclimatized?

Because if they havent got things like sand filters, for example, all that mobile stuff isnt going to be mobile for too long....:p

[BlairWitch749]

Has 6th Panzer already had its equipment modified for the desert?
Or was (as usualy hapened) it intended to do this as they arrived and the men got acclimatized?

Because if they havent got things like sand filters, for example, all that mobile stuff isnt going to be mobile for too long....:p

this is a problematic part of sending them to tobruk... the main workshop that did that work is in tripoli; and to use africa corps existing service crews who are busy desperately trying to restore the tanks of 21st panzer to service would be a lose-lose

they would have to try to do this work in naples prior to 6th panzer shipping out

hyperion, the germans have to be due for a tiny bit of luck; kesselring could put a thick umbrella over the 6th panzer transports (ie several dozen fighters flying from crete, landing at gambut near tobruk, then returning); the regia marina (if the germans released some fuel for the purpose) could sortie a big force to cover the convoy; and the med fleet with the sinking of barham, and the damaging of QE and Valiant is not prepared to engage Italian battle wagons at the moment

[Astrodragon]

this is a problematic part of sending them to tobruk... the main workshop that did that work is in tripoli; and to use africa corps existing service crews who are busy desperately trying to restore the tanks of 21st panzer to service would be a lose-lose

they would have to try to do this work in naples prior to 6th panzer shipping out

hyperion, the germans have to be due for a tiny bit of luck; kesselring could put a thick umbrella over the 6th panzer transports (ie several dozen fighters flying from crete, landing at gambut near tobruk, then returning); the regia marina (if the germans released some fuel for the purpose) could sortie a big force to cover the convoy; and the med fleet with the sinking of barham, and the damaging of QE and Valiant is not prepared to engage Italian battle wagons at the moment

While the RN heavy units arent in any shape to intervene at this time, the light units are.
How long will the RM be prepared to sit off Tobruk (in easy range of the RAF and FAA)? If they arent going to do this until the freighters are all unloaded (which is going to take quite a while at Tobruk!), then I forsee RN destroyers and cruisers paying a nighttime visit for some gunnery practice...If, otoh, they stay there, they do make some rather splendid targets...

[BlairWitch749]

While the RN heavy units arent in any shape to intervene at this time, the light units are.
How long will the RM be prepared to sit off Tobruk (in easy range of the RAF and FAA)? If they arent going to do this until the freighters are all unloaded (which is going to take quite a while at Tobruk!), then I forsee RN destroyers and cruisers paying a nighttime visit for some gunnery practice...If, otoh, they stay there, they do make some rather splendid targets...

The RM could bring two or three battlewagon's for the purpose plus a fairly large light force, I'm a bit dubious that the cruisers of the med fleet would sortie for the express purpose of engaging what would likely be heavily escorted battle wagons... Cunningham was ballsy, but there is a point where one leaves the area of ballsy and ventures into suicidal; I don't even forsee a need to try to bombard the port at night with ships, its too risky; better to launch air strikes... this is all assuming the British can pick up on the operation which is dependent on how much secrecy Kesselring et all wrap the operation in (ie land line telephones and couriers only, radio/enigma silence etc... the Germans did this twice in 1942; for elements of the gazalla offensive which came as a complete surprise; and the channel dash which was also a surprise)

unloading the entire 6th panzer at tobruk wouldn't be possible; the port was too damaged; and the unloading would take too long... however Guderian could gain something if "elements" of 6th panzer where unloaded there (pre desert proofed in Naples) and sent to establish a rally point at Fuka... maybe their attached stugg battalion and the 88mm battalion (if the Germans put in a maximum unloading effort I would guess they could off load those two battalions within 30ish hours assuming no disruptions from air strikes... Kesselring would have to station some additional aircraft to fly cover over the port during unloading as an element of this op)

[Hyperion]

The RM could bring two or three battlewagon's for the purpose plus a fairly large light force, I'm a bit dubious that the cruisers of the med fleet would sortie for the express purpose of engaging what would likely be heavily escorted battle wagons... Cunningham was ballsy, but there is a point where one leaves the area of ballsy and ventures into suicidal; I don't even forsee a need to try to bombard the port at night with ships, its too risky; better to launch air strikes... this is all assuming the British can pick up on the operation which is dependent on how much secrecy Kesselring et all wrap the operation in (ie land line telephones and couriers only, radio/enigma silence etc... the Germans did this twice in 1942; for elements of the gazalla offensive which came as a complete surprise; and the channel dash which was also a surprise)

unloading the entire 6th panzer at tobruk wouldn't be possible; the port was too damaged; and the unloading would take too long... however Guderian could gain something if "elements" of 6th panzer where unloaded there (pre desert proofed in Naples) and sent to establish a rally point at Fuka... maybe their attached stugg battalion and the 88mm battalion (if the Germans put in a maximum unloading effort I would guess they could off load those two battalions within 30ish hours assuming no disruptions from air strikes... Kesselring would have to station some additional aircraft to fly cover over the port during unloading as an element of this op)

That makes sense.

If the entire division can't be landed at Tobruk, land the 88s and another good unit, and send the rest to Benghazi or somewhere further west.

As for the Germans getting luck, I have to agree on the ships making it. I don't see the British sending the fleet out, and Tobruk is probably too far for a major airstrike, unless the RAF leaves 8th Army uncovered.

I figure at best either a British sub gets lucky and sends a couple of transports or Italian warships to the bottom, or the division makes it safe.

If the Italians send out the big guns to make sure this convoy gets through, what are the chances that an inexperienced submarine scipper might try a shot at an Italian battleship as opposed to transports?

[Astrodragon]

That makes sense.

If the entire division can't be landed at Tobruk, land the 88s and another good unit, and send the rest to Benghazi or somewhere further west.

As for the Germans getting luck, I have to agree on the ships making it. I don't see the British sending the fleet out, and Tobruk is probably too far for a major airstrike, unless the RAF leaves 8th Army uncovered.

I figure at best either a British sub gets lucky and sends a couple of transports or Italian warships to the bottom, or the division makes it safe.

If the Italians send out the big guns to make sure this convoy gets through, what are the chances that an inexperienced submarine scipper might try a shot at an Italian battleship as opposed to transports?

Cunningham wasnt suicidal, hes not going to engage battleships with cruisers. hes going to engage them with subs, bombers and torpedo planes....:) :)

Now the question is how long does the RM keep its BB's sittng around Tobruk in easy range of the RN and RAF, before calling it a day? And once the heavy units have gone, I can certainly see the cruisers and destroyers paying a little night visit...
Its all going to delay things, and certinaly it seems unlikely that the RM will stay sitting ducks for the considerable time necessary to unload the whole division. Unloading part makes more sense, but they are still going to get attacked. It only takes one ammo ship, for example, to go boom to ruin your whole day in port...:)

Given the general aggressiveness of both the RN and the Desert Air Force, they most certainly will recieve unwelcome attention.

Whats the LRDG up to, by the way? :)

[BlairWitch749]

Cunningham wasnt suicidal, hes not going to engage battleships with cruisers. hes going to engage them with subs, bombers and torpedo planes....:) :)

Now the question is how long does the RM keep its BB's sittng around Tobruk in easy range of the RN and RAF, before calling it a day? And once the heavy units have gone, I can certainly see the cruisers and destroyers paying a little night visit...
Its all going to delay things, and certinaly it seems unlikely that the RM will stay sitting ducks for the considerable time necessary to unload the whole division. Unloading part makes more sense, but they are still going to get attacked. It only takes one ammo ship, for example, to go boom to ruin your whole day in port...:)

Given the general aggressiveness of both the RN and the Desert Air Force, they most certainly will recieve unwelcome attention.

Whats the LRDG up to, by the way? :)

I don't imagine the RM (at least the battleships) would hang around Tobruk for a very long time (certainly no more than 1 day based on my proposed 2 battalion idea); I guess the question boils down to 2 things

1. Does the axis achieve surprise during this reinforcement sortie, and if so for how long
2. How thick of an air umbrella does Kesselring put over the convoy itself during the passage, and over Tobruk/RM task force during unloading

There RAF is heavily engaged in a major land battle right now; a very short notice or complete surprise appearance of fresh troops in Tobruk could catch them a little flat footed or needing crucial time to get a proper sortie launched; it's the kind of thing that could see them completely flatten Tobruk after the troops have already left and headed towards Fuka

The task force could land completely unscathed to suffering moderate losses (and anything in between; all being plausible at this particular date)

[Cymraeg]

0315 Hours, HMS Una, 50 Nautical miles WNW of Tobruk
“Periscope depth gentlemen,” Martin muttered quietly into the hushed command compartment of the submarine, his eyes fixed on the stopwatch in his hand.

As the submarine tilted upwards and then levelled off he nodded at the Jimmy and then climbed up the ladder into the conning tower, where he raised the periscope and then peered through the viewfinder carefully, sweeping the horizon quickly before focussing on the dark shape that was forging through the sea 2,000 yards away to the West.

“Got you, you bastard,” he whispered, before raising his voice. “Jimmy, he’s zigzagged straight into our hands. Come right slightly to 250 degrees. Firing solution as planned. Fire tubes one to three.”

Five minutes later the submarine was shuddering from the firing of three torpedoes and two minutes after that Lieutenant Martin was looking through the periscope at a burning tanker.

“New course: 010 degrees. Let’s go hunting gentlemen.”

[NORGCO]

Fire tubes one to three.”

Five minutes later the submarine was shuddering from the firing of three torpedoes and two minutes after that Lieutenant Martin was looking through the periscope at a burning tanker.

“New course: 010 degrees. Let’s go hunting gentlemen.”

May I be the first to say OUCH!:D

A panzer without fuel and ammo is just an ugly example of industrial modernist sculpture. Even if that is the only ship they sink - unlikely - and the ammo gets through this is disasterous for Africa Corps. Tank, ammo, no fuel is still just a large, obvious bunker that will get hot enough to fry an egg on from sitting in the desert waiting for 8th army to turn up and destroy it.:cool:

TRIVIA: They actually did the 'hot enough to fry an egg on' thing for a German propaganda piece once, I've seen it. The Africa Corps guy even ate the egg.

[DuQuense]

this is all assuming the British can pick up on the operation which is dependent on how much secrecy Kesselring et all wrap the operation in (ie land line telephones and couriers only, radio/enigma silence etc... the Germans did this twice in 1942; for elements of the gazalla offensive which came as a complete surprise; and the channel dash which was also a surprise)
Kesselring will have to Coordinate this operation with the Italians.
Given that the British at the time, were decoding the Italian messages faster that the Italians were, I doubt the possibility of keeping any such operation secret.

?How long would it take to desert proof a Tank? ?Who has the parts necessary, and available? This will have a affect on how many Tanks Guderian would have available.

[BlairWitch749]

Kesselring will have to Coordinate this operation with the Italians.
Given that the British at the time, were decoding the Italian messages faster that the Italians were, I doubt the possibility of keeping any such operation secret.

?How long would it take to desert proof a Tank? ?Who has the parts necessary, and available? This will have a affect on how many Tanks Guderian would have available.

italian ciphers where unbreakable; they used one time pad's of the sort that were very popular with the kgb in the 70's and 80's (tom clancy's red rabbit, has an excellent explaination of how they work)... the british only started cracking the italians when the germans started forcing them to use enigma

the channel dash was kept secret, as was the rebound from crusader and the gazalla offensive itself (all within this time period)... so it's certainly not asb

there's painting (although i assume this could be done in naples or en route to save time, installing custom air filters for the engine, some modification for the suspension (which is going to go through endless soft sands; plus some optics and gunnery exercises for the crew (since the desert largely doesn't have any landmarks, the gunners and commanders had to be given special courses on distance estimating and desert target aquisition)... 2-3 days per tank 36 hours of shop labor 48-72 hours of crew familiarization and training (normally it would be a lot more; but the situation is urgent, and 6th panzer's men are highly experienced tankers anyway)

[DuQuense]

italian ciphers where unbreakable; they used one time pad's of the sort that were very popular with the kgb in the 70's and 80's (tom clancy's red rabbit, has an excellent explaination of how they work)... the british only started cracking the italians when the germans started forcing them to use enigma
Sorry
I know the British broke into the Italian Embassy in Egypt in the early 40's and stole a copy of the Diplomatic Code book.
Which is where the decoding faster than the Italians comes from. I assumed this allowed the British to be able to decode the military codes from clues in the diplomatic messages.
However if there is any diplomatic messages about this, than my point stands.

[Astrodragon]

italian ciphers where unbreakable; they used one time pad's of the sort that were very popular with the kgb in the 70's and 80's (tom clancy's red rabbit, has an excellent explaination of how they work)... the british only started cracking the italians when the germans started forcing them to use enigma

the channel dash was kept secret, as was the rebound from crusader and the gazalla offensive itself (all within this time period)... so it's certainly not asb

there's painting (although i assume this could be done in naples or en route to save time, installing custom air filters for the engine, some modification for the suspension (which is going to go through endless soft sands; plus some optics and gunnery exercises for the crew (since the desert largely doesn't have any landmarks, the gunners and commanders had to be given special courses on distance estimating and desert target aquisition)... 2-3 days per tank 36 hours of shop labor 48-72 hours of crew familiarization and training (normally it would be a lot more; but the situation is urgent, and 6th panzer's men are highly experienced tankers anyway)

Those figures seem quite reasonable for the base depots, but how long will it take the (already busy) engineers at Tobruk? There isnt much point in feeding the division in in penny-packets as they get desertified (is that a word? It should be...:), so how long before a sensible sized formation is ready. And of course thats assuming the RAF doesnt pay a friendly visit or two to the maintenance depots in the meantime. Intelligence or no, once most of the RM heavy units plus a convoy start hanging around Tobruk, the British are going to notice.

[BlairWitch749]

Those figures seem quite reasonable for the base depots, but how long will it take the (already busy) engineers at Tobruk? There isnt much point in feeding the division in in penny-packets as they get desertified (is that a word? It should be...:), so how long before a sensible sized formation is ready. And of course thats assuming the RAF doesnt pay a friendly visit or two to the maintenance depots in the meantime. Intelligence or no, once most of the RM heavy units plus a convoy start hanging around Tobruk, the British are going to notice.

the 2 battalions with 72 weapons capable of knocking out allied tanks from 1200 meters plus is good for delaying so the rest of the division can be landed and formed up (plus it gives Guderian vital air defense assets)

the 11th panzer regiment is a BIG formation; it has 160 panzer 4's... this is twice the tonnage of when 5th light (sic sic 21st panzer) was landed in 1941; 6th panzer also has 2 full strength panzer grenadier regiments (including 2 battalions in half tracks) plus a bunch of attached stuff (including the stuggs and 88s I mentioned)... it was the 2nd largest division in the army in this point (behind the leibstandarte)... it's total strength was between 14 and 15 thousand men

realisticly it would take a while to land and build up such a big formation just through tripoli; they would have to be split up between tripoli, bengahzi, tunis and bizertte... that would probably allow them to build up at brega ready for battle within 15-20 days

[Hyperion]

the 2 battalions with 72 weapons capable of knocking out allied tanks from 1200 meters plus is good for delaying so the rest of the division can be landed and formed up (plus it gives Guderian vital air defense assets)

the 11th panzer regiment is a BIG formation; it has 160 panzer 4's... this is twice the tonnage of when 5th light (sic sic 21st panzer) was landed in 1941; 6th panzer also has 2 full strength panzer grenadier regiments (including 2 battalions in half tracks) plus a bunch of attached stuff (including the stuggs and 88s I mentioned)... it was the 2nd largest division in the army in this point (behind the leibstandarte)... it's total strength was between 14 and 15 thousand men

realisticly it would take a while to land and build up such a big formation just through tripoli; they would have to be split up between tripoli, bengahzi, tunis and bizertte... that would probably allow them to build up at brega ready for battle within 15-20 days

The division itself may be a good force, but from everything I've seen, shoving the entire division into Tobruk will be a logistical bitch/bottleneck.

That and as mentioned and seen previously, all that firepower isn't going to do jack if the RAF shows up, or if Cunningham sends ships to bombard the port at some point.

[BlairWitch749]

The division itself may be a good force, but from everything I've seen, shoving the entire division into Tobruk will be a logistical bitch/bottleneck.

That and as mentioned and seen previously, all that firepower isn't going to do jack if the RAF shows up, or if Cunningham sends ships to bombard the port at some point.

you simply can't land the whole division at toburk it's like forcing a bucket of water through a straw it would take over 30 days with no disruption... unloading just the stugg's and 88's without loss would be a considerable victory and reinforcement for guderian

the panzer regiment and the infantry regiments would have to be landed at tripoli and other safer ports

you could maybe switch the engineer battalion or recon battalion or one of the half track battalions instead of the stuggs and 88's at toburk; but i think those two units would provide the most immediate effect to Guderian's defensive option and the delay they could help cause is absolutely vital to allowing the rest of the division to mass and desert proof their vehicles

[NORGCO]

So no-one else thinks the submarine sinking the tanker at the end of the last post was supposed to be the start of the destruction of some part of the new panzer division that was sent to Tobruk against the advice that that was too damn risky?:confused:


The way I saw the story going was Guderian demands the division go to Tobruk and Keselring says that's dangerous. Warning is ignored by the G man who repeats his demand, and Keselring caves and agrees to sending the ships to an inadequate port that lacks the maintenance facilities to desert adapt the tanks. Also the ships are far more likely to be sunk.

Then we get a story part where a British submare sinks a tanker and the Captain says “New course: 010 degrees. Let’s go hunting gentlemen." :eek:

I read that as the authors way of saying the gamble of sending the tanks to Tobruk had gone badly wrong and the reinforcements are at the bottom of the Mediterranean now.

I take it no one else sees it that way?

[Astrodragon]

There are limits to what one sub can sink, of course, but it does beg the question of what this will do to the morale and deciciveness of the RM with regard to the convoy and covering unloading operations.

[Tyg]

I don't think there's really much choice in the matter of having the RM sortie to escort those reinforcements and supplies. If they are not escorted, a large share of them may be lost, carrying near-irreplaceable men, equipment, and supplies. Given the precariousness of Guderian's position, that likely means a great retreat. The problem with that is the weakness of the Axis forces in Africa, which suggests the dangerous possibility of retreat becoming a rout back to Tripoli. If the Axis are cleared from North Africa, the RM will not serve any significant purpose anyway, save as targets for Allied bombing or harbor strikes.

What would they be holding the RM in reserve for anyway? If they lose in Africa, attacking Malta isn't going to serve much of a purpose, and the Allies won't be limited in air cover in the central Mediterranean.

Am I missing something?

[Cymraeg]

0930 Hours,ours Hours September 1942, HQ, Panzerarmee Afrika
Hans von Luck looked terrible, Guderian thought as he looked at the man. He was dusty, visibly exhausted and seemed to be limping slightly, which made him wonder if the man had recovered properly from the wound that he’d received months before.

He certainly did not look happy about his assignment, although Guderian had to admit that if he was in von Luck’s shoes he’d be feeling the same way. To make matters worse his objective had changed. The previous night the Australians had attacked the 164th Division with a massive concentration of artillery, followed by an infantry attack. They’d punched a hole and then swung North, seizing a strong position along the railway line. They were now within range of the road – and beyond that the sea, which meant that one of 164th Division’s brigades was in danger of being cut off.

Von Luck’s task was now therefore a simple one – to attack the Australian penetration and throw it back. The problem was that all he had was his own reconnaissance group of fast-moving but relatively light armour, along with the remnants of 15th Panzer and 90th Light. The latter two formations were still massively understrength, and had taken losses from the move up from their refitting positions near the Libyan border. All told the combined divisions totalled 35 Mark II panzers, 10 Mark IIIs and a solitary Mark IV.

Used properly it could be enough to stop the Australians, but it all depended on if they could hit them before they dug in their anti-tank guns. It was a gamble, but it was one that he had to take. He’d thought about adding 21st Panzer to von Luck’s force, but the supply of petrol was already very low and besides the last thing he needed was his panzer formations dashing about from one area to the other. No, he’d ordered 21st Panzer and the Centauro (or what was left of the latter) to find hull-down positions and wait for the British to attack out of their now-unified passageways through the minefields. Speaking of petrol, he’d been horrified to hear that the Proserpina tanker, which had been diverted from Benghazi to Tobruk, had been torpedoed and sunk just North of the port, taking with it his hopes of giving his tanks a fighting chance.

According to the Luftwaffe, which had finally been able to get some reconnaissance pictures of the British lines, the British had what looked like an armoured corps waiting at the entrance to the minefields and he was guessing that this Montgomery person would probably unleash his tanks in the next day or so. If he did, then von Thoma’s tanks and 88mm anti-tank screen should be able to inflict some real pain on the British.

And beyond that… he had to admit that he was looking over his shoulder at the moment. The Fuka position was looking increasingly attractive. Bayerlein’s analysis had shown that it was a good strong position.

He wished that he could have 6th Panzer there soon, but that was looking increasingly unlikely. The loss of the Proserpina had shocked the Regia Marina into announcing that the port was just too exposed to send anything important, and besides it was still in far too bad shape to take on large numbers of ships. He’d told Kesselring that he had to have at least some elements of 6th Panzer, hopefully its 88mm guns at the very least, but the bloody man had sent him a message saying that everything was going to Tripoli or Benghazi – and that besides the tanks and vehicles would need filters for their engines against the sand and dust. He had to admit that he hadn’t properly considered that point.

Of course some brainless cretin in Berlin had asked if it would be a good idea to have the division’s personnel flown over to bolster his front lines, but his reply to that had been a resounding no. Panzertruppen were highly specialised experts. They were not infantry. Moreover, they lacked the numbers to be a significant infantry force. Besides it was just a stupid idea as there was no way on earth that he’d be willing to sacrifice men that way.

He sighed and looked at von Luck. “Good luck,” he told him.

Von Luck saluted and left, leaving Guderian with the odd, unsettling, feeling that he might never see the man again.

[trekchu]

Oh dear Christ... Have the Germans detected the 22nd yet?

[Astrodragon]

All told the combined divisions totalled 35 Mark II panzers, 10 Mark IIIs and a solitary Mark IV.

Used properly it could be enough to stop the Australians

The phrase 'pissing into the wind' comes to mind here...:) :)

[Cymraeg]

All told the combined divisions totalled 35 Mark II panzers, 10 Mark IIIs and a solitary Mark IV.

Used properly it could be enough to stop the Australians

The phrase 'pissing into the wind' comes to mind here...:) :)

I prefer the phrase "Needs must when the devil vomits into your kettle", but then I'm just a Blackadder fanatic. :D

[BlairWitch749]

time to beat a retreat; if high command isn't going to make a serious effort to either strengthen his air cover or rapidly reinforce the panzer army africa there is no choice but to pull back with as much equipment as possible; the infantry need to head back towards brega immediately and the mobile formations need to form a shield at the usual via balbia chokepoints and take advantage of monty's cautious pursuit

[Cymraeg]

1217 Hours, 29th September 1942, 2.5 miles SE of Sidi el Rahman
“Get those bloody guns up!” Major John MacKenzie shouted. It had been a hell of a day so far. Yes, they’d cracked the Jerry lines, but they’d taken some nasty knocks in the process and the battalion was now at 75% strength at best. The Germans had fought hard, but the Australians had been able to call on their artillery to smash them back whenever they’d tried to counter attack – and they were bloody good at that.

He looked to the North, where he could hear the sound of mortars. Hopefully the boys were in range of the Coast Road, so that they could knock seven shades of shit out of the German efforts at resupplying their forces to the North-East. In the meantime he had to make sure that the 6-pounders were brought up and properly sited, because he wanted to make sure that they had protection on their left flank.

“Sir, movement to the West,” Sergeant Daniels said suddenly.

MacKenzie raised his binoculars and peered westwards, ignoring the ribbons of sweat that were dribbling down his face. Yes, he could see clouds of dust on the horizon. Mechanised forces, Jerry bloody tanks.

“Captain Morrison?”

“Sir?” Morrison appeared almost by magic by his side. The Forward Observation Officer, or FOO, might have been a Pom, but he was bloody good at his job, namely raining death and destruction on the enemy.

“We have some targets for your boys.”

Morrison lifted his own binoculars, stared hard and then lowered them again, before nodding and scuttling over to his radio. “Hello Sunray, this is Digger Three,” He said into the mouthpiece. “I have an Uncle target for you…”

MacKenzie listened with one ear as he looked at the dust. Well, the guns of the entire Division were about to fire on that dust. Poor buggers.

[Cymraeg]

1535 Hours, 29th September 1942, 9th Australian Division HQ
Morshead saluted the injured German officer just before the man was led away to the rear and the waiting POW camp and then raised his eyebrows. The bloke had spoken quite good English. The fortune of war, he’d described his position, and had then thanked Morshead for getting the ambulances in so fast for his men.

The Australian strode back into his command tent and looked at the map, which was being updated carefully. The destruction of that annoying battalion on his left flank had been an added bonus to what was turning out to be not a bad day so far. They’d fended off that German armoured attack, or what had passed for one – it had been pitifully small by the standards that he’d been used to. Oddly under-tanked too, he couldn’t remember the last time that he’d seen so many Mark II’s. It had fallen victim to a combination of the 6-pounders and liberal usage of heavy artillery.

The artillery was firing right now again, as his boys pushed northwards and he hoped that the creeping barrage was giving them the support that they needed to get to the road. It wasn’t that far, but the Germans would be desperate to prevent the Australians from reaching the sea and cutting half the 164th Division off.

“Excuse me sir,” Captain Davis said, breaking into his thoughts. “Message from Brigadier Wrigley. The 2/13th have made it through to the sea.”

A grin split the face of the man whose troops had named him Ming the Merciless. “Reinforce them at once. And then tell the boys to hold and expect tank support. I want Roberts moving to join them straight away.”

[Domoviye]

I won't say thats the ballgame, but the Germans are definitely hurting and need a miracle.
I like.

[trekchu]

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me"
And he sang as he watched and waited till his billy boiled,
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".



Hooray! Go Aussies!

[Sior]

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me"
And he sang as he watched and waited till his billy boiled,
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".



Hooray! Go Aussies!

Sorry no Aussy armour in North Africa unless you count the captured Italian crap they used in Tobruk.

http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/orgarmour.htm

[trekchu]

Îf I know anything about the war then it's where the 7th Armoured was under what circumstances. I was connecting the text of the song with the Tanks of the 22nd Armoured Brigade. :D

[BlairWitch749]

small nitpick: Guderian wouldn't call Kesselring sir, Guderian considered himself a field marshal regardless of Hitler giving him a baton; Guderian and Kesselring are contemporaries and have been aquaintances for more than a decade... Guderian as chief of staff only called Model/Manstein etc sir in Hitler's presence, otherwise the formality (as was his way) was waived

bigger nitpick: Guderian has to throw some type of complete shitfit on high command. He has now seen the front and it's precariousness for himself, time for a quick trip back to Rome or Berlin to go on a massive ball busting tour about the lack of support being given to the panzer army; time to threaten resignation and the like if more airpower isn't committed and the regia marina isn't forced to make more efforts to screen his supply and reinforcement ships... I mean he would have only taken the job on the promise of adequate support and up to this point Berlin has no made good...a good shouting match with high command is in order

[Hyperion]

small nitpick: Guderian wouldn't call Kesselring sir, Guderian considered himself a field marshal regardless of Hitler giving him a baton; Guderian and Kesselring are contemporaries and have been aquaintances for more than a decade... Guderian as chief of staff only called Model/Manstein etc sir in Hitler's presence, otherwise the formality (as was his way) was waived

bigger nitpick: Guderian has to throw some type of complete shitfit on high command. He has now seen the front and it's precariousness for himself, time for a quick trip back to Rome or Berlin to go on a massive ball busting tour about the lack of support being given to the panzer army; time to threaten resignation and the like if more airpower isn't committed and the regia marina isn't forced to make more efforts to screen his supply and reinforcement ships... I mean he would have only taken the job on the promise of adequate support and up to this point Berlin has no made good...a good shouting match with high command is in order

At this point, aside from the 6th Panzer arriving to hold the British back, I don't see any victory scenarios for the Guderian.

He can and probably will find a few ways to hurt the British, and I think if Monty makes a mistake he will capitalize on it, or at least not let Monty correct himself.

Beyond that, at this point, I honestly see no realistic way that Guderian can keep the army in Egypt any longer without being routed and destroyed.

Of course, once November 8th rolls around, Guderian, or whoever is driving the bus in North Africa, will have bigger problems.

[BlairWitch749]

Oh there is no way that the Germans could win with such a late POD... BUT they don't have to instantly collapse and go down in flames

Given where 6th panzer is going to be unloaded and the time required to get them ready to fight in the desert; it's possible the torch forces might just run into them before they can head off towards brega

[NORGCO]

bigger nitpick: Guderian has to throw some type of complete shitfit on high command. He has now seen the front and it's precariousness for himself, time for a quick trip back to Rome or Berlin to go on a massive ball busting tour about the lack of support being given to the panzer army; time to threaten resignation and the like if more airpower isn't committed and the regia marina isn't forced to make more efforts to screen his supply and reinforcement ships... I mean he would have only taken the job on the promise of adequate support and up to this point Berlin has no made good...a good shouting match with high command is in order

With Stalingrad and the push to the Caucasis going on will Hitler be willing to authorise transfer of units in anything other than a very obvious disaster in the making? Sending a few divisions and some planes now rather than the major buildup sent after the Torch landings would be the sane, rational thing to do.

This is Hitler in full "My iron will saved us last winter NOT my generals!" mode, asking for sane rational decision making is a little optimistic, don't you think? I fully expect Der Fuhrer to just scream at people for a few hours and then send a 'Stand Fast' order.

Or am I being excessively cynical about the Austrian Housepainter?

[BlairWitch749]

With Stalingrad and the push to the Caucasis going on will Hitler be willing to authorise transfer of units in anything other than a very obvious disaster in the making? Sending a few divisions and some planes now rather than the major buildup sent after the Torch landings would be the sane, rational thing to do.

This is Hitler in full "My iron will saved us last winter NOT my generals!" mode, asking for sane rational decision making is a little optimistic, don't you think? I fully expect Der Fuhrer to just scream at people for a few hours and then send a 'Stand Fast' order.

Or am I being excessively cynical about the Austrian Housepainter?

The situation in Africa is more desperate than OTL, whilst Stalingrad hasn't been encircled yet... he has other reserve formations beyond 6th panzer (although only the Leibstandarte is fully ready for combat)... he has 10th panzer and HG panzer, 24th panzer, 2nd parachute, elements of 1st parachute, 16th panzergrenadier, 11th panzer, etc etc not currently committed; hell there are valuable elements of the 1st panzer army are largely uncommitted due to fuel shortage, diversion of support to army group B and loss of initiative (such as 7th panzer, 5th ss panzer etc) that can be committed

There are also decent numbers of aircraft that can be transferred from quieter fronts (home defense, france, balkans etc) at least to temporarily supress malta and ease the chokehold on Guderian's supply lines; Hitler can also pull more u-boats off atlantic duty to go on patrol in the med (where they have been very effective despite limited numbers)

It's a question of how Hitler reads the situation i guess; I really want to see a third battle Aghelia

[Hyperion]

Oh there is no way that the Germans could win with such a late POD... BUT they don't have to instantly collapse and go down in flames

Given where 6th panzer is going to be unloaded and the time required to get them ready to fight in the desert; it's possible the torch forces might just run into them before they can head off towards brega

Um, I think you may have yourself mixed up.

The furthest east that the US and token British forces in Operation Torch landed was in eastern parts of Algeria.

Berga, Tobruk, Benghazi, all that is something Monty and 8th Army are going to have to deal with.

This doesn't mean the green US troops will not get a bloody nose at some sort of Kasserine Pass battle down the road, but 6th Panzer isn't going to stop Torch.

If the US forces from Torch are marching on Brega at some point, Guderian is screwed, as that means Tripoli, Misrata, and other places to the west would have already fallen to US troops.

[BlairWitch749]

Um, I think you may have yourself mixed up.

The furthest east that the US and token British forces in Operation Torch landed was in eastern parts of Algeria.

Berga, Tobruk, Benghazi, all that is something Monty and 8th Army are going to have to deal with.

This doesn't mean the green US troops will not get a bloody nose at some sort of Kasserine Pass battle down the road, but 6th Panzer isn't going to stop Torch.

If the US forces from Torch are marching on Brega at some point, Guderian is screwed, as that means Tripoli, Misrata, and other places to the west would have already fallen to US troops.

I had suggested that significant portions (in order to speed the process) of 6th panzer would need to be landed at Tunis and Bizertte; they may be there, getting their machines ready for desert combat, and departure towards Brega when Torch occurs which could see them diverted to the west to combat the Torch forces

[Hyperion]

I had suggested that significant portions (in order to speed the process) of 6th panzer would need to be landed at Tunis and Bizertte; they may be there, getting their machines ready for desert combat, and departure towards Brega when Torch occurs which could see them diverted to the west to combat the Torch forces

I'm confused.

You say 6th Panzer could head west.

Yet you mention Brega. Libyan Brega.

The Brega which in REAL LIFE the Libyan rebels have spent months fighting around trying to break through and head west to overthrow Gaddafi.

Look at the map. If the head towards Brega, they will be heading EAST, AWAY from the Torch landings.

I get your idea, but it sounds as if your geography is a bit on the weak side.

[BlairWitch749]

I'm confused.

You say 6th Panzer could head west.

Yet you mention Brega. Libyan Brega.

The Brega which in REAL LIFE the Libyan rebels have spent months fighting around trying to break through and head west to overthrow Gaddafi.

Look at the map. If the head towards Brega, they will be heading EAST, AWAY from the Torch landings.

I get your idea, but it sounds as if your geography is a bit on the weak side.


Sorry if I didn't make it clear

They would be landed in Tunisian and Libyan ports with the INTENTION of going towards Brega (Libya) to set up a rally/counter attack point for the panzer army... however Torch will likely occur BEFORE they have departed on their mission which could see that mission cancelled and those troops diverted to defend the west

better?

[Cymraeg]

1625 Hours, 29th September 1942, HQ, Panzerarmee Afrika
“God damn it!” Guderian’s fist hammered on the table. The assembled officers glanced at each other nervously. Guderian knew that his temper could frighten people at times, but he was so angry right now that he didn’t care about setting a good example.

The Luftwaffe liaison officer, Schmundt, looked the most nervous, as well he might. Guderian was extremely unhappy with the amount of support that he was getting, or rather not getting, from the Luftwaffe. They seemed to have disintegrated – no air cover to speak of, no protection from the RAF bombers that were roaming at will across the battlefield and next to no reconnaissance. Lack of information was killing his men and the Luftwaffe were failing to provide him with the information that he needed.

He’d therefore been sending a string of increasingly acerbic, not to say bad-tempered, messages to Kesselring, demanding more Luftwaffe support, more reinforcements, more supplies, more everything.

All he’d gotten back so far had been a series of promises and nothing concrete. He’d started to appeal to Berlin for more help, but so far all he’d gotten had been a string of messages to hold firm as help was on the way. Details of that help had been… somewhat lacking.

The best that he could say about the messages from Mussolini was that if the amount of hot air that they contained could ever be collected and utilised, well he could fry the British units that were attacking with it.

And he needed help. Half of the 164th Division was now cut off and his infantry units were starting to melt away like ice in the midsummer sun. As for his tanks, well he was ruing the loss of every single one when it happened.

He was now down to three main options. The first was to try and stabilise the situation – to rescue the cut-off parts of the 164th, wait until the 6th Panzer Division could come up and then help drive the British back. Unfortunately by the time that the 6th could come up then Panzerarmee Afrika would be either dead or in POW camps. They couldn’t stay here, no matter how many exhortations they received from the Axis capitals, because they were outnumbered and outgunned.

Option two was to pull back at once, heading for the Fuka position at the very least. They could trade territory for time and give the army a chance to recover from its ordeal. Berlin and Rome would be horrified by the very idea of a retreat, but he didn’t care about that. An existing army could always counter-attack and regain territory – a destroyed army self-evidently couldn’t. The problem with that scenario was that it meant effectively abandoning the cut-off part of the 164th. He hated that thought.

Option three was a tricky one – to counter-attack in the North to get through to the cut-off troops and then pull back as quickly as possible once they were out. It would take careful staffwork, a sizable slice of luck (something that had been missing so far), and a degree of professional skill that he knew that his staff were capable of. Lungerhausen, the commanding officer of the 164th, was pressing for an attack to get his men out, not that he could blame him.

He was busy wavering between Options two and three at the moment. He really wished that he could discuss the situation with von Thoma, but he was late for the meeting, which was unlike him.

Out of the corner of his eye he saw a dust-covered officer enter and whisper into Bayerlein’s ear. The latter stiffened and then walked over to Guderian with the new arrival behind him. “Excuse me sir, but Lieutenant Lehring has just arrived with some news about General von Thoma.”

Guderian looked up sharply at the dusty young man. He remembered him from when he’d first arrived in Africa – the boy had been with Rommel when he was killed. “Is the general alright?”

Lehring clicked his heels in salute and pulled a slight face “He’s alive sir, but he’s been injured. We were hit by an artillery strike. General von Thoma sustained a head wound from a splinter. The doctor I talked to said that it concussed him. The general says that he’s fine, but he keeps vomiting and forgetting things.”

Guderian sighed and did his best to ignore the pain in his arm. What else would go wrong today?

[Cymraeg]

2144 Hours, 29th September, XIII Corps Tac HQ, 5 miles NE of Jebel Kalakh
Horrocks repressed the need to pace and concentrated instead on looking down at the face of his watch. 30 seconds to go. There was a lot riding on this, but he knew that the men could do it. The minefields weren’t as thick as they perhaps should have been and he found himself wondering what things would have been like if Rommel had lived – from what he’d heard the man had been a prodigious sower of mines.

He looked at his watch again. “Now,” he whispered and almost as if in response to his voice the horizon to his East lit up.

[Some Bloke]

I like the use of OTL's ASB details to justify certain ... developments:D

[Cymraeg]

Hell, truth can be a hell of a lot stranger than fiction sometimes!

[Tyg]

Guderian sighed and did his best to ignore the pain in his arm. What else would go wrong today?

Guderian, you should never goad the universe and ask that question. It will show you.

[Cymraeg]

0530 Hours, 30th September 1942, Jebel Kalakh
“Stand and fight you miserable bastards! You want to live for ever do you?” Captain Ritter von Neumann screamed at the men running past him. Most of them were wounded and at least one of them was actually screaming for his mother.

It had been a horrible, terrible night for the last men of the Ramcke Brigade. There had been so few of them left even before the battle and now there was just a last handful left. They’d been shelled so often that the shell holes were overlaid on shell holes. There was almost no ammunition left even for the rifles. The mortars had been destroyed early on.

The British attack had been brutal, a maelstrom of shellfire that had gutted the German positions and had inflicted heavy damage to the Pavia and Folgore divisions, the latter of which had again been understrength at the start of the battle.

Holding the defensive positions in the minefields had been almost impossible, but they’d clung on, throwing back at least one attack. But the British had too many men and above all that damned artillery. The Axis forces had had little with which to respond, as the majority of it had been taken North in a desperate effort to stop the British there.

And now it came down to a handful of men, led by von Neumann, trying to defend the last piece of high ground West of the minefields.

“Damn it, I should have taken that transfer to the Russian Front,” von Neumann growled. He could see the fragmentary gleam of bayonets in the pre-dawn light. As he lifted his rifle to his shoulder he felt something that was both cold and hot brush against his right temple and then the darkness swallowed him.

[Cymraeg]

0600 Hours, 30th September 1942, HMS Una, 100 Nautical miles NNW of Benghazi
“Bloody hell.”

The Jimmy of the boat looked at the captain quizzically. “Something wrong sir?”

Martin stepped back from the periscope and gestured at it with his left hand as he replaced his cap with his right. “Take a look to our North.”

HMS Una’s second in command squinted through the sights carefully. “Ah,” he said after a moment. “Interesting.”

“More than bloody interesting, I’d say that’s bloody miraculous. When was the last time we saw an Italian cruiser this close to the shores of North Africa?”

“It’s a very tasty target sir,” the Jimmy mused as he peered intently at the target. “They’re in a hell of a hurry too – not even zig-zagging!” Then he peered a bit harder. “Sir, there’s another ship there. Looks like a freighter, a big one.”

Martin tapped his second command on the shoulder and then looked through the periscope again as he moved back. “You’re right,” he said after a long moment. “I think there’s a destroyer there as well. I think it’s that convoy we were warned about, I think there’s maybe another freighter as well.” He paused and thought hard. “How many fish have we got left?”

“We expended three on that tanker, so we’ve got six left sir.”

Martin continued to stare at the ships as he thought very hard and very fast. “They’re heading towards Benghazi I think. Right, let’s take a look at the map. I want to get into the best position possible.”

[BlairWitch749]

0600 Hours, 30th September 1942, HMS Una, 100 Nautical miles NNW of Benghazi
“Bloody hell.”

The Jimmy of the boat looked at the captain quizzically. “Something wrong sir?”

Martin stepped back from the periscope and gestured at it with his left hand as he replaced his cap with his right. “Take a look to our North.”

HMS Una’s second in command squinted through the sights carefully. “Ah,” he said after a moment. “Interesting.”

“More than bloody interesting, I’d say that’s bloody miraculous. When was the last time we saw an Italian cruiser this close to the shores of North Africa?”

“It’s a very tasty target sir,” the Jimmy mused as he peered intently at the target. “They’re in a hell of a hurry too – not even zig-zagging!” Then he peered a bit harder. “Sir, there’s another ship there. Looks like a freighter, a big one.”

Martin tapped his second command on the shoulder and then looked through the periscope again as he moved back. “You’re right,” he said after a long moment. “I think there’s a destroyer there as well. I think it’s that convoy we were warned about, I think there’s maybe another freighter as well.” He paused and thought hard. “How many fish have we got left?”

“We expended three on that tanker, so we’ve got six left sir.”

Martin continued to stare at the ships as he thought very hard and very fast. “They’re heading towards Benghazi I think. Right, let’s take a look at the map. I want to get into the best position possible.”


6th panzer's convoys should have high levels of protection both from destroyers and aircover... Una is probably in for a sinking from JU-88's or Italian destroyers

[BlairWitch749]

after Guderian falls back, he should return to Berlin (he should honestly have already done so) to go on a sustained, ruthless and nasty ball busting tour about the panzer army's lack of support; he needs to embarass hitler in front of his entourage to bring back more forces

[Hyperion]

after Guderian falls back, he should return to Berlin (he should honestly have already done so) to go on a sustained, ruthless and nasty ball busting tour about the panzer army's lack of support; he needs to embarass hitler in front of his entourage to bring back more forces

I don't see any way he could have left sooner, especially in what may become the key battle of the North African campaign.

Reinforcements or no, I have a feeling that after this battle, Panzer Armee Afrika will likely have to be rebuilt partially if not completely from scratch.

[BlairWitch749]

I don't see any way he could have left sooner, especially in what may become the key battle of the North African campaign.

Reinforcements or no, I have a feeling that after this battle, Panzer Armee Afrika will likely have to be rebuilt partially if not completely from scratch.

it already desperately needs reinforcements; at least the core of senior leadership is there; but for a longer term holding operation guderian will need not only 6th panzer and other forces, but he will need their supply lines to be more steady

guderian took over the situation because they had no commander and things where utterly desperate; but he has to go back to berlin (as rommel did) appraise high command of what he has seen and his opinions and then start ball busting for reinforcements

edit: if guderian decides he needs a checkup for all this chest pain whilst in berlin, his odds of being allowed to return to africa after they check his pulse and blood pressure are probably zero

[Hyperion]

it already desperately needs reinforcements; at least the core of senior leadership is there; but for a longer term holding operation guderian will need not only 6th panzer and other forces, but he will need their supply lines to be more steady

guderian took over the situation because they had no commander and things where utterly desperate; but he has to go back to berlin (as rommel did) appraise high command of what he has seen and his opinions and then start ball busting for reinforcements

edit: if guderian decides he needs a checkup for all this chest pain whilst in berlin, his odds of being allowed to return to africa after they check his pulse and blood pressure are probably zero

By chance, and this would be a definite blow to already bad German and Italian morale, given the increased issues he is dealing with, what are the chances that combat and stress could cause Guderian to suffer a more severe health related issues this time around, be it in North Africa, Rome, Berlin, wherever.

A fatal heart attack, or a disabling stroke might not be out of the question.

One thing to consider, if Guderian realizes that North Africa is a loosing prospect in the end, might he counter by urging a bigger buildup in Italy sooner?

[BlairWitch749]

By chance, and this would be a definite blow to already bad German and Italian morale, given the increased issues he is dealing with, what are the chances that combat and stress could cause Guderian to suffer a more severe health related issues this time around, be it in North Africa, Rome, Berlin, wherever.

A fatal heart attack, or a disabling stroke might not be out of the question.

One thing to consider, if Guderian realizes that North Africa is a loosing prospect in the end, might he counter by urging a bigger buildup in Italy sooner?

Well around this point he wound up on bed rest for a long time...now he has high stress, bad sleep, bad food and bad water to be added to the things bothering his heart.

That conversation with his doctor might go something like this

Doctor: Ah hello Heinz, it's been a while, how's Magda and the kids?
HG: Magda has blood poisoning and the kids are out leading panzer regiments to crush the bolsheviks... you know the usual
(Hooks up the blood pressure aparatus to HG and starts the pumping/whatever)
Doctor: So where does our benevolent fuhrer have you stationed these days
HG: Oh I'm just back on active service, commanding the panzer army africa
Doctor: You don't say... Africa that must be exciting (stares at the mercury not rising in his aparatus)... Heinz I'm sorry to tell you this but your blood pressure is 87 over 68
HG: Oh that's great new's and here I thought my stress was giving me high blood pressure
Doctor: No no... you still have a problem here Heinz let me check your pulse (Checks his pulse) oh dear this isn't good
HG: What is it doctor?
Doctor: Well umm you are circling right on the age of a heart attack or serious heart failure Heinz. Why even the smallest stressor could easily have you unconscious on the floor, like now for example I am going to fart out a portion of the Brotworst and Beer I had for lunch, even the stress of smelling that unpleasantness will probably send your heart into a tailspin... observe (doctor lets out long disgusting gas release, HG wiffs the air, makes a nausiated face and passes out onto the floor)
Doctor: Oh well, at least we removed the maybe from his heart condition

:D

[Cymraeg]

0730 Hours, 30th September, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ
Fists clenched on the surface of the table Guderian stared at Kesselring. “I must tell you Kesselring that as soon as we break through to the cut-off part of the 164th Division we will then evacuate them – and then pull back to the Fuka position. We have no choice in this matter.”

Kesselring looked at the map – and then shook his head. “Berlin will never agree to that. Neither will Rome.”

“I don’t care,” Guderian snapped. “The truth of the matter is that if we stay here we all die. There will be no Panzerarmee Afrika and therefore no chance of victory.”

The Luftwaffe officer licked his lips and then shook his head. “Berlin-”

“Berlin hasn’t sent us what we needed to merely hold the line!” Guderian broke in. “We’re short of everything – guns, men, tanks, armoured cars, ammunition, fuel, everything! They hold the high ground, what there is of it, and their attack in the South has caused the greatest possible confusion – I don’t know exactly what is going on there and not even the Luftwaffe can tell me what the British are doing there, and that worries me a great deal.”

This was a low blow, at least as far as Kesselring was concerned, and he flushed with anger. “I’ve ordered reconnaissance patrols,” he said as calmly as he could obviously manage. “And I have to tell you that retreating without orders will not be regarded well in Berlin or Rome.”

Guderian stood quickly, ignoring the stabbing pain in his chest that flared and then subsided. “My duty is to my men. And that duty means getting as many back alive as possible. This position becomes more untenable with every passing day. We cannot stay here any longer.”

Kesselring looked at Guderian for a long moment and then looked away. “I have to get back to Tripoli,” he said quietly. “Good luck with your attack.”

[Cymraeg]

Well around this point he wound up on bed rest for a long time...now he has high stress, bad sleep, bad food and bad water to be added to the things bothering his heart.

That conversation with his doctor might go something like this

Doctor: Ah hello Heinz, it's been a while, how's Magda and the kids?
HG: Magda has blood poisoning and the kids are out leading panzer regiments to crush the bolsheviks... you know the usual
(Hooks up the blood pressure aparatus to HG and starts the pumping/whatever)
Doctor: So where does our benevolent fuhrer have you stationed these days
HG: Oh I'm just back on active service, commanding the panzer army africa
Doctor: You don't say... Africa that must be exciting (stares at the mercury not rising in his aparatus)... Heinz I'm sorry to tell you this but your blood pressure is 87 over 68
HG: Oh that's great new's and here I thought my stress was giving me high blood pressure
Doctor: No no... you still have a problem here Heinz let me check your pulse (Checks his pulse) oh dear this isn't good
HG: What is it doctor?
Doctor: Well umm you are circling right on the age of a heart attack or serious heart failure Heinz. Why even the smallest stressor could easily have you unconscious on the floor, like now for example I am going to fart out a portion of the Brotworst and Beer I had for lunch, even the stress of smelling that unpleasantness will probably send your heart into a tailspin... observe (doctor lets out long disgusting gas release, HG wiffs the air, makes a nausiated face and passes out onto the floor)
Doctor: Oh well, at least we removed the maybe from his heart condition

:D


Rofl.... I love that!

[Cymraeg]

0745 Hours, 30th September, XIII Corps Tac HQ, 5 miles NE of Jebel Kalakh
The one thing in the world that Horrocks wanted to do right now was to pace, but unfortunately he supposed that generals should not display huge amounts of anxiety.

The attack the previous night had gone well – very well indeed. The lads had smashed through the minefields, Jebel Kalakh had been seized, as had Qaret el Abd. They just needed to take care of the last remnants of opposition in the area, which included the last fragments of the Folgore and part of the Pavia.

The tanks of X Corps were already moving through the cleared paths in the minefields. He just hoped that they didn’t end up stalled in those passageways.

“Excuse me sir, message from O/C 44th Division,” said a voice to one side and Horrocks turned to see a signals officer holding out a message flimsy. He took it as slowly as he could and then looked down at it. He was still worried about 44th Division due to its inexperience, but the men had done very well so far. He read the message and then smiled.

“Gentlemen,” he said to the staff officers who were gathered around the mapboard, “I’ve just received a message. The 12th Lancers have broken through.”

[BlairWitch749]

Rofl.... I love that!

its not hard to picture a traigc comic existance for guderian (putting aside the fact that he was a hard core mass murdering nazi in his own right) he was often the only lucid person in a room full of total ass hat crazies

at least kesselring didn't insult Guderian's intelligence; he repeated the company line which was his way... no "you should treat the stand and die order as advice not an order"... I swear if I was Rommel and I heard that shit I would have impaled/corn-holed him with my field marshal's baton and then proceeded to punch every single one of his teeth out of his face

i mean there was a lot of stupid shit that went on in the heer in ww2, but no command got more asb orders than the panzer army africa, having that command probably falls one step below panda sperm collector on the list of jobs i would never ever want

[Alex1guy]

Wow just wow, this is brilliant! It feels very real, the language the portrayal of characters, it's really good!

[naraht]

its not hard to picture a traigc comic existance for guderian (putting aside the fact that he was a hard core mass murdering nazi in his own right) he was often the only lucid person in a room full of total ass hat crazies

Mass murdering... Name the location and date(s).
(not disputing the rest)

[whatisinaname]

Looks like Guderian will either have a stroke or a heart attack, prob at the worst possible moment?