Splinters - Rommel Dies At Alam Halfa

[Astrodragon]

I like a good fight. It gets a bit repetitive reading about how badly the Germans are being mauled all the time.:rolleyes:

Never gets stale, though! :D:p

[pike]

This is why i was so pleased to hear that the Germans might be more able to show there prowess in battle at 50/50 odds.

A good fight is a equal as possible i say.

[BlairWitch749]

nitpicky questions

Chain of command? Raus - DAK? 6th only? Nehring - DAK? Panzer Army Africa? Richtoffen Panzer Army Africa? OB Sud? Is there an Italian general commanding panzer army africa with germans below him a la when Messe came in

My throughts for the upcomming battle (which keep in mind the DAK won)


The 6th is more than double the strength of 21st panzer from RL in this battle; and they will likely stop leese dead in his tracks so the rest of the army can haul ass back to the mareth line (the 6th is the strongest and best lead German division and will account for themselves well... also the british have come along way and they will be complacent in their pursuit; and the infrastructure of their air force still has to displace forward)

however the italian infantry are considerably weaker due to the debacle at alemein


so here is my projection

raus whips leeses spearhead by surprise, encircling several regiments; however, harrocks resumes pressure to the north forcing raus to relinquish his grip on the south to backstop a collapse in the north; however this should buy the necessary breathing space for the army to withdraw to the mareth line and catch it's breath

[Hyperion]

Most impressive. I can't believe I missed several updates over the last few weeks. I'm glad this is continuing somewhat.

My guess is similar to Blairwitch. The Germans give the British a final bloody nose, but overall have to fall back.

Then after this, it's just a matter of time until Operation Torch. Once the Americans hit the beaches and the French change sides, it's game over.

[Cymraeg]

2204 Hours, 26th October 1942, West Flank of 6th Panzer Division
Raus stared at the map and rubbed his hands over his face tiredly. His staff were working in the next tent over, as they desperately tried to put the pieces of their second attack together.

It had to be better handled than their first one and he still cursed himself for being too impetuous. He’d gone at it bull-headed and his men had paid the price. If he’d spent a bit more time putting the pieces of the attack together then they might have been able to hit the British positions in a more concentrated punch. Instead they’d gone too quickly and too dispersed and they’d met what must have been a heavily reinforced British anti-tank screen.

Oh, they’d hurt the British, but the British had hurt them back. They’d lost 44 tanks and armoured vehicles and far too many men. Raus had pulled them back and ordered a more concentrated attack before dawn, with everything they had, including full artillery support. They’d do it the second time.

He looked up at the ceiling. The British bombers were out again tonight, he could hear the throb of engines and the crash of explosions somewhere to the East.

There was a scuff of feet at the entrance and then Krausemann poked his head into the tent. “Herr General, General Nehring is on the telephone for you. He says that it’s urgent.”

Raus frowned and then sighed. “Very well,” he said and stood up. His knees creaked and he felt tired and old tonight. Striding over to the other tent he picked up the field telephone. “Raus speaking,” he said into the receiver.

“Nehring here,” came the crackling response. “How far along are your preparations to attack?”

“We’ll be attacking at dawn sir,” Raus said gruffly.

“Make contingency preparations to withdraw as well. We’re getting reports of extreme confusion on our left flank. The Italians are falling apart. They detected what appeared to be signs of a British attack after dusk, but we don’t know exactly what’s happening.”

Raus stared at the far side of the tent, tightened his grip and pulled a face. “Sir, they’re still outflanking us. If we fall back now then we’ll be savaged on the retreat – and if they’ve already got light armour or worse behind us then we are in severe trouble sir. Whatever happens to our left then we still have to attack on our right. If they hook behind us and reach the sea, we’ll be surrounded.”

There was a silence and then Nehring spoke up again. “Very well. I will keep you informed of the situation. In the meantime continue to prepare your second attack.”

“Yes sir,” Rause said, before replacing the receiver. Then he looked at the map. All in all, he wished that they’d never left France.

[whatisinaname]

Cool part, good to see this continuing :)

[trekchu]

Seeing Nazis getting handed a good shoeing is always fun. :cool:

[Cymraeg]

Cool part, good to see this continuing :)

Well, I had a lot of other stuff to write, including the latest chapter of The Terran Jedi, plus for some reason I couldn't get this bit right. This is the second version.

[Some Bloke]

Terran Jedi?

[Cymraeg]

Terran Jedi?

A fanfiction story I've been working on for bloody years. I crossed Buffy the Vampire Slayer with Star Wars and the result has been two stories that so far total about 800,00 words and which I can't ever benefit financially from because I don't own the characters. Sometimes I wonder about my sanity. :rolleyes:

[trekchu]

A fanfiction story I've been working on for bloody years. I crossed Buffy the Vampire Slayer with Star Wars and the result has been two stories that so far total about 800,00 words and which I can't ever benefit financially from because I don't own the characters. Sometimes I wonder about my sanity. :rolleyes:


I recently started a project for which I have outlines or rough ideas for at least a dozen stories, each novel length.... I do feel you.

[Urban fox]

At this stage you wonder why the Germans dont just cut their losses in North Africa. Holding back forces to defend (or occupy) Italy would be more worthwhile...

[trekchu]

At this stage you wonder why the Germans dont just cut their losses in North Africa. Holding back forces to defend (or occupy) Italy would be more worthwhile...


There's that small matter of that megalomaniac, genocidal madman in Berlin...

[Cymraeg]

0235 Hours, 27th October, 1942, Five Miles East of Zlitan
The lorries were still burning merrily, and he looked at what his men had achieved with a fond smile. There were about twenty of so of them, a combination of German, Italian and captured British machines, but they lit up the area quite nicely.

They also lit up the sea quite nicely and he looked at it yearningly. A swim would have been quite nice, but he knew that they just didn’t have the time. Still, it was a good thing to just look at, because of what it symbolised.

He sighed happily and then put his jeep into gear. Turning it tightly around he drove slowly over back to the road, where he caught sight of Yunnie, with the light gleaming off his astrolabe-shaped cap badge.

“We’ve sent the prisoners back up and down the road sir,” his subordinate said gleefully. “They should spread a lot of alarm and despondency as they go.”

He laughed. “Right, then it’s time to go, Bob! We’ll let the Lancers and the others block the road to the South. We’ll cause more chaos on the road to the North-West. The buggers ought to be getting worried about their rear soon!”

Vladimir “Popski” Peniakoff drove off with an even bigger grin. PPA had a lot more work to do before dawn.

[Hyperion]

Nice to see this continuing. A while back I missed over two months worth of updates. Made for some nice, long reading.

[Cymraeg]

0600 Hours, 27st October 1942, Buerat Escarpment
It was complete chaos in the room, as officers ran in and out clutching piece of paper, whilst others updated the maps or shouted into telephone or just shouted at each other. Chaos and madness and a bone-weary Nehring knew that there was nothing that could be done until they had better information on what was going on.

Falugi was doing his best to find out what was happening on the coast road, but the man looked as if he was at the very end of his tether. His Pistoia Division , or what was left of it, was supposed to be holding on the far Eastern side of the position. Unfortunately it had been shelled heavily, bombed just as heavily and now seemed to have undergone some kind of breakdown.

They’d received reports during the night that the British were behind them on the road to Tripoli. Those reports had added to the collapse of the Pistoia. Then there was the little matter of the Superga, which had lots of men but little or no equipment, which was still either being unloaded at Tripoli or was being sent there. There had been no word from its commanding officer, Gelich, since dusk the previous day. There were just a lot of rumours and even more chaos.

Nehring looked up. Von Haussen was striding across the floor towards him. He was holding a piece of paper and he looked white as a sheet. Oh wonderful, he thought sardonically, I wonder what’s wrong now.

“Excuse me sir, but we’ve just heard from a staff officer just north of Buerat. He says that the British are in Buerat itself. Tanks and mechanised infantry he says. He adds… he adds that General Gelich is dead and that the Superga are being overrun, or are running, or are dead.”

Nehring took the piece of paper and read it carefully. Then he looked up. “I want this confirmed. And whilst it’s being confirmed I want to talk to General Raus. It’s time to head straight for Tripoli.”

[whatisinaname]

Great update, not much the Germans can do with just one division (or whats leaft of it).

[Julius Vogel]

Hurrah it is back!

[BlairWitch749]

cymraeg,

i have nitpicks ;)

your "heavy shelling" on the Italians couldn't happen even in your ATL, it's why the axis did as well in the battle in OTL... namely that Monty's troops had advanced very far from their jump off points, had outrum all the rail transport and the infrastructure of the RAF desperately required a pause to displace forward, so the artillery regiments were not able to lay down the curtains of fire that were the trademarks of monty assaults.

The spearheads had also advanced more than 400 miles from even the el adem supply dumps... and except for the few dozen shermans still running, british tanks sucked at long road marches and the british repair bays had been filled up. After weeks of relentless advance, the troops including lease got complacent, overlooked how strung out they were and got themselves punched right in the face; Raus has 2x the strength of what 21st panzer brought to this battle IRL which more then compensates for the beating the Italians have taken... the British wouldn't be able to maintain pressure all along the line for some time after the start of the battle, giving the axis time to withdraw safely

[Hyperion]

cymraeg,

i have nitpicks ;)

your "heavy shelling" on the Italians couldn't happen even in your ATL, it's why the axis did as well in the battle in OTL... namely that Monty's troops had advanced very far from their jump off points, had outrum all the rail transport and the infrastructure of the RAF desperately required a pause to displace forward, so the artillery regiments were not able to lay down the curtains of fire that were the trademarks of monty assaults.

The spearheads had also advanced more than 400 miles from even the el adem supply dumps... and except for the few dozen shermans still running, british tanks sucked at long road marches and the british repair bays had been filled up. After weeks of relentless advance, the troops including lease got complacent, overlooked how strung out they were and got themselves punched right in the face; Raus has 2x the strength of what 21st panzer brought to this battle IRL which more then compensates for the beating the Italians have taken... the British wouldn't be able to maintain pressure all along the line for some time after the start of the battle, giving the axis time to withdraw safely

No offense Blair, but you're getting old.

6th Panzer may have been a good division, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter what one division does if it has no serious support, poor logistical support, and a higher command that isn't as well organized as OTL.

Given the POD and the distance from the POD now, OTL logistics issues for the British will still be around, but if they've taken fewer losses, or had more time to organize and act rather then react to German and Italian operations, they could well be somewhat better off right now.

[BlairWitch749]

No offense Blair, but you're getting old.

6th Panzer may have been a good division, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter what one division does if it has no serious support, poor logistical support, and a higher command that isn't as well organized as OTL.

Given the POD and the distance from the POD now, OTL logistics issues for the British will still be around, but if they've taken fewer losses, or had more time to organize and act rather then react to German and Italian operations, they could well be somewhat better off right now.

Buerat wasn't a bullshit position, the axis won the delaying battle there with less effective resources than they have on hand at the moment in this timeline

The author's POD involved the panzer army africa getting ground up much more at Alemein which would necessarily involve heavier losses and consumption of supplies for the British vs OTL (since they had to fight those forces to submission instead of just chasing them as they ran away)

Otherwise their rate of advance has been more or less similar to otl's pace if not a bit ahead of schedule which would see them experience the same (or likely worse given the grind out at alemein lasting longer; which I'm not disparraging as plausible or more effective than otl) supply/complacency/vehicles requiring repair problems that happened to the 8th army anyway

IRL the 21st panzer stopped Lease cold after his spearheads stumbled into several clever artillery traps, the british paused to bring up supplies and repair vehicles, during which time Rommel decided that Benny and Hitler just wouldn't allow him to retreat via legal orders anymore, so he ordered the panzer army africa to haul ass back to the mareth line on his own... there is a chance in this regard that Richtoffen or whoever doesn't pull the same stunt (although Richtoffen was much better at talking to Hitler and Benny than Rommel was) and could have the panzer army africa encircled and destroyed at Buerat after the British regroup however, the opening stage of the battle wasn't something that the British had a realistic chance of winning anway

[Cymraeg]

1000 hours, 28th October 1942, Tripoli
Raus stared out of the window. His eyes felt itchy from lack of sleep and every part of his body felt as if he’d been beaten with sticks. What he most wanted to do was to go to bed and sleep for a day or two.

Unfortunately life was conspiring against him and he really couldn’t imagine a time when he’d be able to indulge his body’s desire for rest. There was far too much to do. Far too much to organise. Far too many men to try and save.

Because the past day had seen disaster piled upon disaster. He’d been expecting Nehring’s order to disengage and break out to Tripoli. What he hadn’t anticipated had been the extent of the Italian collapse. The bloody spaghetti-munchers had fallen apart on the left wing, allowing the British to do their best to envelop the entire position. Perhaps it had been the shelling, perhaps it had been the bombing, perhaps it had been a combination of the two, plus the strain of the long retreat, but they’d fallen apart like cheap pasta.

At least his men had been able to break through the closing trap. It hadn’t been easy and he’d lost far too many men, but they’d been able to smash their way through the still-forming British cordon.

The problem was that he was now the senior German officer in the area. Nehring had vanished after giving the order to retreat to Tripoli. Hopefully he was still alive in the wreckage that was to the South-East, where the British were sweeping the remains of the Axis forces there into their POW camps.

In the meantime that left him. In Tripoli. With a badly mauled panzer division. And with the hungry British snapping at his heels. Panzerwaffe forces did not do well in cities. Warsaw had shown that, along with other places since then. He knew that his division couldn’t stay there. They had to go. Maybe to the Mareth Line, on the Libya-Tunisia border, but they had to go and they had to go now.

That would lead to politics. Well, screw politics. His men came first, no matter what stupid entreaties came from Rome or Berlin.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

1000 hours, 28th October 1942, Tripoli
Raus stared out of the window.
...

At least his men had been able to break through the closing trap. It hadn’t been easy and he’d lost far too many men, but they’d been able to smash their way through the still-forming British cordon.

....
He knew that his division couldn’t stay there. They had to go. Maybe to the Mareth Line, on the Libya-Tunisia border, but they had to go and they had to go now.

That would lead to politics. Well, screw politics. His men came first, no matter what stupid entreaties came from Rome or Berlin.
Well, at least his names appropriate now.:) Raus! Und schnell!

[whatisinaname]

Great update, looks like the Germans will have to decide if it is still worth putting 'good money after bad' to keep fighting this battle or withdraw back to mainland Europe?

[Cymraeg]

(Apologies for the delay, but I've been hideously busy recently, plus I use a certain bank that has been in the news recently and which can't find it's arse with both hands, a GPS system and a team of sherpas. :mad:)

1000 Hours, 30th October 1942, Tripoli
The sound of a massed Highland Pipe band was not something to be taken lightly, Horrocks thought as the head of the parade passed the reviewing stand. Okay, so they hadn’t had much time to prepare at all, but the band looked good and were belting out “Black Bear” at a volume that threatened to blow anyone’s hat clean off his head.

He drew up into a salute and then risked a quick glance to his left, where Montgomery was also saluting the men, and then he looked back as the band continued to pass. He knew that some of them had been there for two years – two see-saw years where Tripoli had at times been so near, and at other times so very far away.

There were others there, he knew, an army of ghosts that were also marching past. The spectres of all those who hadn’t made it this far, who had been killed in the sand and rock and the dust somewhere between here and El Alamein. Those who should have made it, but hadn’t. Apparently the toast of ‘Absent Friends’ was being heard in a lot of messes at the moment, not that he could blame them.

The crowd behind them were cheering, but in a very odd way. Some seemed happy, some seemed bemused, some seemed totally baffled and some were silently resentful. Well, that was understandable. Tripoli was the first major city to be taken from the Axis, although as a colony of Italy it was in a rather odd class of its own. It had only been Italian since 1911, when it had been wrenched out of the increasingly feeble hands of the Ottomans. As a result it seemed to be a city of… contrasts. There were the Italian areas, the Arab areas, the areas where everyone seemed to be mixed in together… but all in all more than a few people seemed to be enjoying the parade.

The first of the armoured cars came past, looking as if their crews had done some furious buffing up but still looking jauntily menacing. Horrocks saluted with the other officers again and then looked at the proud but above all young faces on the vehicles pensively. They’d be driving straight out through the Western Gate afterwards and then on join in the chase after the German rearguard, which was moving westwards towards Tunisia and a very uncertain greeting from the Vichy French authorities.

Politics, more bloody politics. And then he thought about what was about to descend onto French North Africa and another frown rippled over his face. Yet more bloody politics.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Believe me, i understand life happening!!

Very glad to see the update, now that its here.

[Hyperion]

Don't worry if you have to deal with real life, we all do. It's still good to see this being updated, if even sporadically.

At some point if you continue to work on this, have you considered posting the story in the finished timelines section, even if it isn't finished per se.

At this point I'd say what you have now would probably take a good half hour or so to read from beginning to the current point.

[whatisinaname]

Great update, must be doing Monty's ego no end of good?

[Cymraeg]

1215 Hours, 30th October, 1942, Resident-General’s Mansion, Tunis.
Major General Georges Barré stared gloomily out of the window at the rain falling outside. It was an unseasonally cold day for Tunis at this time of year and he wished that the weather wasn’t reflecting his mood quite so exactly.

Turning he caught sight of the other occupant of the room and his mood soured still further. Strictly speaking Jean-Pierre Esteva, Resident General of Tunisia was in charge of the country – under the Bey of course. However, as far as Barré was concerned Esteva was barely in charge of himself at the moment – the man was a shaking mass of nerves.

The reason for Esteva’s palpitations was the ragged mass of men and machines that were fast approaching the Southern border of Tunisia. The Germans were coming. They seemed to have been soundly defeated, they were retreating – and the path of that retreat led straight to Tunisia. As the British were following them, that meant that war was coming.

So far the Marshall’s government in Vichy had been watching the collapse of Italy’s hold on Libya with a combination of stolid indifference and secret glee. However, the closer the fighting got to the border the more worried they were becoming. In the wake of the disaster of 1940 France was on its knees. The last thing they wanted was to get sucked into the fighting.

Well, too bad. The war on their doorstep again. The Germans were pressuring Petain and that odious little toad Laval to let their forces into Tunisia. The defences of the Mareth Line, which had ironically been built to stop an Italian attack from Libya, would form a fine defence against Montgomery’s army.

“If we allow them in then the British will follow them,” Barré said evenly.

Esteva twitched slightly and then rubbed his hands together in a nervous gesture. “I have heard nothing from Vichy for hours. Every hour that passes brings them closer. Surely the British will stop on the border?”

Barré stared at the man incredulously. “Why should they if we let the Germans and the remains of the Italian forces in? If we show that we are not in fact neutral, why should they act as if we are?”

This self-evident truth brought another bout of hand-wringing from Esteva. “What can we do?” Esteva said in what was almost a wail.

“We have two options,” Barré said dryly. “Both of which are… difficult. The first is that we let them in – and then the British follow them and finish what they started at El Alamein and Buerat. This will bring the war right onto our laps. The second is simple. We affirm our neutrality and close the border.”

Esteva stared at him. “Can we close the border?”

Barré sighed. “It would be… difficult. The Germans have most of an armoured division and the remains of the Italian forces in Libya. Their supply lines have been severed, they are low on ammunition, petrol and every other kind of supply. They are, in short, desperate and running for their lives, as much as Germans ever run for their lives. But despite all this I… cannot guarantee that we can stop them. My forces are poorly equipped. We have few tanks, little usable artillery and a pitiful stock of ammunition. We have been left in this state for two years, despite all my pleas for more supplies.”

Esteva, who had been the man who had dismissed most of Barré’s requests, twitched again, this time in a distinctly guilty manner. “What can we do?” he asked again faintly.

A thin smile crossed Barré’s face. “Pray for a miracle?”

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Ooo.. update!

If france declares neutrality, do the germans DARE attack?

A german general who turned france from a quasi ally to an enemy would be in deep ... trouble at home. Otoh, hes in deep ... trouble already, and far from home.

Coin toss?

[whatisinaname]

Cool, another update :D

[Cymraeg]

2346 Hours, 30th October 1942, Gibraltar
“That’s the last of them,” Creci said worriedly as he handed over the two packages of cigarettes.

Grant frowned at them and then looked up at the British officer. “Are you sure?”

“I double-checked with the NAAFI. We don’t get that many of them here and the last supply ship is still being unloaded. Sorry.”

“Not your fault,” Grant sighed. “Thank you kindly though for checking.”

“You’re welcome,” the Welsh officer said with a tired smile. Then he paused. “Does the General smoke that much?”

“Like a f… like a chimney,” Grand muttered as he stretched slightly. The tunnels still gave him a lingering feeling of claustrophobia. They were well-lit in most places, but also clammy due to the sheer number of British service men and women – as well as a fairly large number of American personnel such as himself. And then there was the General, who was pacing his small office, chafing at the reports (or at times lack of reports) coming from the task forces, which were getting ever closer to French North Africa.

“Right,” he said. “I’ll get these to the General. And hopefully we won’t have to tell him that these are the last Lucky Strikes in Gibraltar.” And that would not please Ike.

[Cymraeg]

I've spent the past three weeks suffering from total writers block, and believe me, it ain't pleasant at all. I woke up today feeling non-knackered, and lo and behold - no block! So I'll be trying to get all my threads back up to speed this weekend.

[whatisinaname]

Good to see the writing 'blockage' has been unblocked :D

[Julius Vogel]

Like a cork?

[Cymraeg]

Like a cork?

Yes, wine might have been the catalyst... :cool:

[El Pip]

Yes, wine might have been the catalyst... :cool:
Well all I can say is drink more wine, the results are excellent! :D

[Cymraeg]

Apologies for the delay everyone. I got rid of the writers block just in time for the arrival of our new puppy. She's a very cute cockapoo who has been busy draining the life out of us.


0945 Hours, 31st October, 1942, Führerhauptquartier Werwolf
It was the third report he’d read about the almighty mess at Stalingrad over the past 24 hours. The first two had been bad. This one was worse. Zeitzler sighed tiredly and then wondered – again – why the hell he’d accepted this bloody job. At the time it had seemed like a good idea. He wasn’t so sure now.

No matter what Von Paulus seemed to do, the Soviets still clung to that strip of the city by the Volga. Everything bar the kitchen sink had been thrown at them, but still they kept fighting.

Zeitzler found his eyes drifting the North-West of Stalingrad yet again. He was now officially getting worried about Paulus’s flanks. The Russians seemed to be up to something on the other side of the River Don, everyone seemed to agree on that. The problem was that certain people, such as the Fuhrer, seemed to think that there was nothing to worry about. He wouldn’t agree with that at all, but he couldn’t get Hitler to see it.

There was a knock on his door and he turned to face it. “Enter.”

Much to his surprise it was Jodl, who was looking slightly rattled. “We’ve received a message from Madrid,” the balding man said, holding out a message form in his right hand. “A substantial convoy of British and American ships – warships and transports – transited the Straits of Gibraltar yesterday. They were heading Eastwards.”

Zeitzler raised his eyebrows and then frowned as he took the message, which he read quickly. Interesting. “They can’t be heading to Malta, surely – they’ve already sent several convoys there from Alexandria, covered by their fighters from Libya.”

Jodl shook his head. “I’m about to tell the Fuhrer about this – I’ve ordered that he be woken up. I think they’re heading for Sicily.”

“An invasion? You really think so?”

“It’s the only thing that makes sense,” Jodl said. “We’ll have to intercept them with U-boats.”

Zeitzler nodded as he straightened his uniform and then strode to the door with Jodl. “I think that you might be right. We must tell the Fuhrer.”

[Cash]

Excellent update! Glad to hear the writer's block has dissipated. Can we expect more regular installments in the future? Please? (just keep the puppy away from your shoes and the computer cords.)

[Hyperion]

I really hope the US isn't about to throw the Torch forces at Sicily, even if the defenses aren't that great.

Better to take and clean out North Afica several months early.

[phx1138]

I would try to consider the effect of Rommel being dead and how that will effect the outcome of the current battle.
In the longer term, Rommel dead is better for the Germans. He was always at the very limit of his supply line because he insisted on attacking, when the idea was a strategic defensive. (Not as sexy, but strategically more sensible, given the LOC constraints in play.)

[Rich Rostrom]

Apologies for the delay everyone. I got rid of the writers block just in time for the arrival of our new puppy. She's a very cute cockapoo who has been busy draining the life out of us.

What, a vampire dog?

[Simon]

Well poodles are evil... ;)

[Cymraeg]

Well poodles are evil... ;)

Blasphemer!!! :p

[whatisinaname]

Good to see that you have used the 'plunger' against the writers 'blockage' ;) :D and that you have put up another great part :)

[phx1138]

plan on spending Christmas of 1943 in Rome perhaps?
:eek::eek::eek: Can I persuade you to have Brooks &/or Winston come to their senses, not insist on destroying PAA in detail & not invading Italy at all?:eek: Thereby saving all the manpower, supplies, and shipping needed to support an Italian invasion for Neptune?:cool::cool: Also, probably, allowing Neptune to go off several months sooner...:cool::cool: (As much as a year?)

[Hyperion]

:eek::eek::eek: Can I persuade you to have Brooks &/or Winston come to their senses, not insist on destroying PAA in detail & not invading Italy at all?:eek: Thereby saving all the manpower, supplies, and shipping needed to support an Italian invasion for Neptune?:cool::cool: Also, probably, allowing Neptune to go off several months sooner...:cool::cool: (As much as a year?)

That or if they do go into Italy, get the US to be willing to commit more forces than OTL.

I remember reading one of the Alternate Generals books by Turtledove where Patton wasn't fired from 7th Army and the US and British went ashore successfully further north near Rome, bagging half a dozen or so German divisions and support in 1943, basically pushing the Italian campaign ahead by about 6-9 months for far fewer allied losses. Though Mark Clark was apparently killed off in the story, and I've seen more than a few people here who seem to hold him in the same low regard as MacArthur or Percival.

[phx1138]

That or if they do go into Italy, get the US to be willing to commit more forces than OTL.
That's an even worse mistake.:eek::eek::eek:

The problem is the supplies, both for the troops & civilians. Which have to be shipped in. Which takes shipping from moving materiél to Britain, for the buildup to invade France...which is supposed to be the main object.

The essential was to keep the Germans from escaping Sicily.:eek::rolleyes: So a landing at Messina was required--& should have been the end of it. Loss of Sicily would bring down Mussolini (unless I'm much mistaken; it did OTL). Add constant raids by MTBs & codos up & down the coasts of Italy, you'd tie down enormous numbers of Germans at trivial expense in Allied manpower & supplies.:cool: Plus the Germans would have to feed the Italians, & pacify the hostile ones...:eek: Which is good for the Allies.:cool:
I remember reading one of the Alternate Generals books by Turtledove where Patton wasn't fired from 7th Army and the US and British went ashore successfully further north near Rome, bagging half a dozen or so German divisions and support in 1943, basically pushing the Italian campaign ahead by about 6-9 months for far fewer allied losses. Though Mark Clark was apparently killed off in the story, and I've seen more than a few people here who seem to hold him in the same low regard as MacArthur or Percival.
I wouldn't rank Clark quite so low as MacArthur, but he was a bungler. His change of orders (contrary to Alex's plan, & his orders to Clark:rolleyes:) encouraged Lucas to stay on the beach at Anzio. And IIRC, he chose Lucas to begin with, & Lucas was too damn old: it should've gone to Trusctott to begin with.:rolleyes:

That said, I disagree with d'Este more troops were required, had the force moved inland immediately. IDK enough about the state of play in Italy to know if landings north of Rome were possible, or a good idea. Thinking about it, tho, didn't they select Anzio because Rome was beyond the operational radius of the fibos?
every report of new British units being spotted in parts of the line
Have the Brits discovered the leak thanks to the Germans reading the U.S. Black cypher yet? I've seen this credited with a lot of Rommel's "genius" myth.
all he had at the moment at the El Alamein position at the moment was one panzer division
Given the perennial fuel shortage, how he expects to make best use even of that, IDK.:confused: Or is he just not fully aware of the situation in the desert, yet?

[phx1138]

0315 Hours, HMS Una, 50 Nautical miles WNW of Tobruk
“Periscope depth gentlemen,” Martin muttered quietly into the hushed command compartment of the submarine, his eyes fixed on the stopwatch in his hand.

As the submarine tilted upwards and then levelled off he nodded at the Jimmy and then climbed up the ladder into the conning tower, where he raised the periscope and then peered through the viewfinder carefully, sweeping the horizon quickly before focussing on the dark shape that was forging through the sea 2,000 yards away to the West.

“Got you, you bastard,” he whispered, before raising his voice. “Jimmy, he’s zigzagged straight into our hands. Come right slightly to 250 degrees. Firing solution as planned. Fire tubes one to three.”

Five minutes later the submarine was shuddering from the firing of three torpedoes and two minutes after that Lieutenant Martin was looking through the periscope at a burning tanker.

“New course: 010 degrees. Let’s go hunting gentlemen.”
I know, it's long past time to fix this, but I just can't let it go.

To begin with, this strikes me as a miraculous coincidence, how the convoy just happens to zig into range, & quite close: no pursuit, no maneuvering to set up, nothing.:rolleyes:

Then, it takes five minutes to go from firing solution to actual firing?:confused::confused::confused: How incompetent are these sailors?:rolleyes:

[Cymraeg]

1205 Hours, Dog White Beach, Bougie
The best way to describe the scene on the beach was simply to say that it was complete and utter bloody chaos, thought Brigadier Robert Young as he leant against a handy railing and looked out at the vista.

The landing craft weren’t a bad idea, it was just a hell of a shame that they had so few of them. They needed a lot more. That said, the LCAs were doing a hell of a job, having landed most of the 5th Battalion of the Northamptonshires, and the small number of Commandos that had been wheedled out of 6th Commando.

He sighed and looked over at the French prisoners that had been gathered to one side. They were a sullen lot, not that he could blame them. It must have come as a hell of a shock to have a fleet suddenly appear off the coast and then start to disgorge thousands of troops. The local garrison had tried to fight, but with almost no ammunition and next to no artillery it hadn’t lasted long. He’d been lucky. He’d only lost ten men, all wounded.

From the messages that they’d been picking up it sounded as it wasn’t going too badly in Algiers, which was a relief. Bougie was the Easternmost point of the invasion. If the attack against Algiers failed, then the Bougie force would be effectively cut off.

“Excuse me sir,” said a tired voice to his left and he turned to see young Smith standing there with a message flimsy. “Message from Colonel Warbuton. We’ve secured the docks.”

“Excellent. Time to get the ships in then.” The more reinforcements the better, he thought. Especially as they’d be setting off for Tunis as soon as they had the area secured. Whenever that was.

[whatisinaname]

Good to see this back, great update

[MattII]

Just started reading this a few nights ago. Good work. This is also going to have a big effect on the Atlantic Wall, since there will probably be no general oversight without Rommel, thus the allies will have a much easier time, due to poorer treatment of the workers, poor standards, and even poorer inter-force communication.

[Cymraeg]

1700 Hours, 31st October, 1942, Führerhauptquartier Werwolf
“According to the latest reports from the French – which are confused I must admit mein Fuhrer – American forces have landed from Safi to Casablanca to Port Lyautey. Fighting is going on for Oran and Algiers. There are also reports that British units have landed East of Algiers and also Eastwards along the coast as far as possibly Bougie,” Zeitzler said quietly, pointing out the various locations with his finger.

Hitler was staring at the map, his right fist clenched in his left hand. “I thought that our U-Boats were going to attack them. What news from them?”

Zeitzler shook his head and grimaced. “They were deployed all the way Eastwards, mein Fuhrer, far closer to Sicily, where we were afraid that they would land. The Italians had mobilised their defences there after those intelligence reports from the Spanish. According to the Kriegsmarine they’re redeploying Westwards now. Dönitz is preparing a report for you.”

“Good,” Hitler snapped. “How hard the French fighting.”

Zeitzler looked at Jodl, who looked uneasy. “Reports are… confused at the moment, mein Fuhrer,” Jodl said after a moment. “We’re trying to get more information from Vichy.”

A noise that was part snarl and part sigh emerged from Hitler. “Vichy,” he said coldly, “Cannot be trusted any more. I trust that we have fully updated Case Anton?”

“Yes, mein Fuhrer,” Jodl replied. “We can carry it out as soon as the units are in place.”

“Very well. And what is the status of the Afrika Korps?”

“Raus is approaching the Tunisian border. His force is… low on ammunition and fuel. There are no supply depots in the area and the only ports are really nothing more than fishing villages, mein Fuhrer.”

Hitler grunted again and then jabbed at a spot on the map. “Then we need to seize a port of our own. We will supply Raus via Tunis.”

Zeitzler and Jodl exchanged another glance. “Mein Fuhrer, we will have to seize Tunis as soon as possible, perhaps before Case Anton goes into effect. It will take some… careful planning and-”

Hitler cut Jodl off with a wave of the hand. “Careful, nothing. I want Tunis seized at once – have the Luftwaffe fly the men in. We secure Tunis and hold it – and once we have Tunis we have Tunisia. Raus can hold the British off on the Mareth Line whilst we then repel the invasion to the West. Organise it at once!”

Oh, this is not going to end well, thought Zeitzler. Then he thought about Stalingrad again and grimaced. He had a bad feeling about quite a lot at the moment.

[Urban fox]

They just keep digging the grave deeper. Still if Africa falls now, Germary may avoid ''Tunisgrad''.

Through higher fears of Allied lands could tie-up a lot of German forces.

[TrekMaster51]

Interesting. So the German position in North Africa nears collapse, and the Torch landings have been moved up a week sooner than OTL. Looking good so far.

Given the invasion starting a little over a week earlier than in OTL, this could see some US units that where involved not having been ready to deploy.

That being said, given the stronger postion of British 8th Army, one less US division or so might not be that big of a deal.

Given the POD of this timeline, it's also quite possible the British or even the Canadians might have been able to free up some troops to compensate. Given French resistance is rolling over similar to OTL, a few less troops probably will not matter all that much though.

[whatisinaname]

Great to see this story continuing :)

[Byzer Bob]

Very pleased to see an update :)
So Tunis may get a double invasion by air from the Axis and by sea from the Allies. This could get very busy!