Splinters - Rommel Dies At Alam Halfa

[Cymraeg]

1530 Hours, 30th September, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ
Bayerlein seemed to be having puzzled shouting match with someone at the other end of the phone, Guderian thought quizzically. The younger man had apologised profusely for the noise, but had added that the commanding officer of the Brescia was on the other end of what seemed to be a truly terrible line. Frankly given the amount of damage the signal parties had been reporting to their lines he was amazed that they had any working telephone lines at all.

In the meantime he was watching von Mellenthin as he talked more quietly on the radio. From the look on his face he could guess that all was not going well for their attack against the Australians. Von Randow, who had taken over from the heavily concussed von Thoma, had been thrown back once by the Australian and their anti-tank screen. He was now making a second attempt, this time further to the North.

This was the last effort now. There wouldn’t be a third attack, the armoured forces that von Randow had under his command now included not just 21st Panzer and the last remnants of the Centauro but also von Luck’s shrunken husk of a battlegroup. If they couldn’t get through then he’d issues the orders to pull back to the Fuka position as soon as night fell and then could disengage.

“Sir,” von Mellenthin said, breaking in on his dark musings, “Generalmajor von Randow reports heavy resistance along the line – dug in 6-pounders and hull-down tanks.”

Guderian winced quietly. “Does he think that he can break through?”

“He’s assessing the situation sir.”

Guderian stared at the map despairingly. Well, that was it. Time to go. As he turned back to von Mellenthin he suddenly caught sight of a white-faced Bayerlein slamming down the phone and hurrying over to him. “Sir, Major General Brunetti reports that his division was badly hit by a heavy British attack this morning. He’s retiring North. He said that all contact has been lost with the Pavia and the Folgore.”

Definitely time to go, Guderian thought wryly. But then Bayerlein opened his mouth again. “He also reports that a Storch flown by a Luftwaffe liaison officer called Horst landed behind his lines this afternoon, forced down by enemy fighters. I just talked to Horst as wall. He reports seeing several columns of British tanks and armoured cars heading North-West towards Daba.”

Something very cold seemed to grab hold of Guderian’s intestines and then pull down. Damn it, Kesselring’s men should have reported this earlier! Why hadn’t they? One Storch? Where were the other planes?

A wave of dizziness swept over him for a moment and then he turned back to Bayerlein, who was looking at him quizzically. “I want that report confirmed,” he said hoarsely. “Von Mellenthin, tell von Randow to stop his attack. I want… I want….” But he couldn’t finish his sentence, because all of a sudden something reached out and clenched his heart with a grip that seemed to be both icy and fiery. The pain was excruciating and his could feel his legs buckle beneath him. Someone grabbed him from behind to support him, but he still felt himself slumping down to the ground.

“Herr Generaloberst!” Bayerlein seemed to be speaking from the far end of a very long tunnel, a tunnel that seemed to be getting longer by the second. “Get a doctor someone!”

Guderian tried to open his mouth and tell Bayerlein to pull the army back to the Fuka position, but then the darkness that had been gathering in the shadows dragged him down into the depths of unconsciousness.

[Cymraeg]

Looks like Guderian will either have a stroke or a heart attack, prob at the worst possible moment?

Not a bad guess! :D

[Cymraeg]

1510 Hours, 30th September 1942, Italian Freighter Ischia, 20 Miles NNW of Benghazi
Sweet Mary mother of God but he was tired. Captain Luigi Colletti was short on sleep, short on tobacco and above all short on patience with the idiot German officers who were busy puking their guts up in the wardroom.

It had been a hellish trip so far. He hadn’t wanted to go to Benghazi, but he’d been ordered to by the Admiral. Yes, he’d been told that there would be a naval escort for his ship, as well as the San Giustio, but his view had been that a) Tripoli was a safer destination and b) a convoy meant more ships which meant a bigger target. So far his thoughts about b) had been right on the money.

The first British attack had been bad enough. A submarine had fired four torpedoes at the two freighters plus their fours escorts. The heavy cruiser Gorizia had taken two torpedoes amidships, the third had gone god only knew where and the fourth had hit the Ischia. One boiler room had been put out of action and the ship had slowed. Combined with the damage to the cruiser and the speed of the convoy had slowed considerably.

According to the commander of the Gorizia the submarine that had made the attack had been sunk. Colletti wasn’t so sure of that, because half an hour later another two torpedoes had been loosed at them. One had missed, the second had slammed in to the side of the San Giustio. She hadn’t sunk, but she was wallowing far too low in the water for his comfort.

They’d been promised air cover, but that had been spotty, partly due to the low clouds. Besides, that hadn’t stopped the attack by the British bombers that had appeared at midday, probably warned by that supposedly sunken British submarine. They’d strafed the Gorizia into a hulk, sunk one of the destroyers with bombs and then put two bombs into a second destroyer, which sank an hour later.

Right now Gorizia was lumbering at the front, followed by the Ischia, the San Giustio and the last destroyer.

Colletti peered at the coast with red-rimmed eyes. They were perhaps an hour from Benghazi. And then he heard the strangled yelp from the lookout and stared to port. Four more torpedoes were slicing through the water towards the Axis ships. He screamed a course alteration to the helmsman but knew that it was too late as the first torpedo speared into the side of the Gorizia. The cruiser shook like a leaf in a strong wind, but he was more interested in the second one, which was heading straight at the Ischia’s Starboard side.

So much for the convoy, he thought as he felt his ship break its back. “All hands to the lifeboats!”

[Hyperion]

Only four ships, most of them warships.

This was probably a battalion or regiment worth of troops at best in this convoy. Sounds like the bulk of the 6th is either still safe in Italy, or has been sent further west to Tripoli or another safer port.

So what will be left of the Afrika Korps after this battle?

[naraht]

I read this as there being two ships transporting men/equipment: The Ischia and the San Giustio. The Ischia didn't make it, the San Guistio is damaged. So no more than half of what is supposed to go to Benghazi will make it and possibly less.

[whatisinaname]

Not much left of the AK, but if they can withdraw, they will be withdrawing to some of their replacment troops and equipment, that could give the AK a good basis for a defesive force?

Also who will replace Guderian?

I was thinking poss Kesselring over the short term, longer term, that would be a problem poss Gotthard Heinrici ?

[MerryPrankster]

Wow. Guderian has a heart attack at the worst possible time.

The Germans are even more SOL than before.

[Deckhand]

http://ecdn0.hark.com/images/000/002/010/2010/original.giffile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/GMEYER%7E1.BCC/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png

[BlairWitch749]

I'm calling foul on the rough handeling of the 6th panzer convoy

This is the prized jewel of the OKW reserve, there is no way their escort would be that small; the Germans would lean all over the Italians to send their entire fleet to screen 6th panzer's ships. The LW out of Italy and Crete would provide a large air umbrella (as they did later to counter torch) to cover the troop ships... if the weather was too bad for the LW and RA to keep a roving patrol over the ships, it would be too bad for the bombers to make contact either, also if the weather was bad the submarines would have a hard time keeping contact with the convoy

[Cymraeg]

I'm calling foul on the rough handeling of the 6th panzer convoy

This is the prized jewel of the OKW reserve, there is no way their escort would be that small; the Germans would lean all over the Italians to send their entire fleet to screen 6th panzer's ships. The LW out of Italy and Crete would provide a large air umbrella (as they did later to counter torch) to cover the troop ships... if the weather was too bad for the LW and RA to keep a roving patrol over the ships, it would be too bad for the bombers to make contact either, also if the weather was bad the submarines would have a hard time keeping contact with the convoy

In mitigation I haver to say that it's just a part of the 6th Panzer, the advance element. The majority will get through to Tripoli. I remain astonished a) as the way that the RM gave up in the latter half of 1942 and b) how effective the British forces in Malta and Alexandria could be.

[MerryPrankster]

In mitigation I haver to say that it's just a part of the 6th Panzer, the advance element. The majority will get through to Tripoli. I remain astonished a) as the way that the RM gave up in the latter half of 1942 and b) how effective the British forces in Malta and Alexandria could be.

Can we at least see the fleet with the Sixth Panzer battering their way through the British attack?

Seeing the British attempt to stop the reinforcement of the Afrika Korps foiled (with losses to ships and aircraft) would mitigate the Axis-screw aspect of TTL.

[BlairWitch749]

In mitigation I haver to say that it's just a part of the 6th Panzer, the advance element. The majority will get through to Tripoli. I remain astonished a) as the way that the RM gave up in the latter half of 1942 and b) how effective the British forces in Malta and Alexandria could be.

Those forces where not able to interdict the HG Panzer and 10th panzer troop ships responding to torch from shorter range... I can't understate how precious 6th panzer was to the OKW... they wouldn't let any part of it sail without without the thickest escort of ships and aircraft possible... Una or any other sub would find it difficult to shadow a larger convoy because destroyers would be partially detached for anti sub sweeps... which are the sort of things that force you to manuever and break contact with little hope of regaining it

[Cymraeg]

2030 Hours, 30th September 1942, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ
Bayerlein put the phone down and then stared at the map grimly. The situation was still not looking good. Von Randow had pulled back from the Australian lines, and the orders had gone out for an immediate withdrawal to the Fuka line, but it all depended on getting there. And the British were moving North-West fast, even by their standards.

If they couldn’t get back then-

He heard steps outside and then Kesselring swept into the command caravan. The Feldmarschall looked almost as tired as Bayerlein felt. He was also nursing a bandage on the side of his neck and his coat had oil on it.

“Herr Feldmarschall!” Bayerlein blurted. “I wasn’t aware that you were on your way.”

Kesselring turned a weary gaze to him and then looked vaguely affronted. “You didn’t get my message then? Damn it, I wondered about the damage to the radio on my plane. We were jumped by a Spitfire, but we were able to avoid it. I was in Tobruk when I heard about Guderian’s heart attack – my plane was being refuelled and I was talking to the engineers about repairs to the harbour. Speaking of Guderian, how is he?”

“Very ill, sir,” Bayerlein said hoarsely. “The doctor said it was a severe heart attack. He’s lucky to be alive – he’s in the hospital now.”

Kesselring nodded briskly. “I’m taking command as of this moment. I’ve already sent a message to Berlin and Rome. Now – what’s the current situation?”

[BlairWitch749]

2030 Hours, 30th September 1942, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ
Bayerlein put the phone down and then stared at the map grimly. The situation was still not looking good. Von Randow had pulled back from the Australian lines, and the orders had gone out for an immediate withdrawal to the Fuka line, but it all depended on getting there. And the British were moving North-West fast, even by their standards.

If they couldn’t get back then-

He heard steps outside and then Kesselring swept into the command caravan. The Feldmarschall looked almost as tired as Bayerlein felt. He was also nursing a bandage on the side of his neck and his coat had oil on it.

“Herr Feldmarschall!” Bayerlein blurted. “I wasn’t aware that you were on your way.”

Kesselring turned a weary gaze to him and then looked vaguely affronted. “You didn’t get my message then? Damn it, I wondered about the damage to the radio on my plane. We were jumped by a Spitfire, but we were able to avoid it. I was in Tobruk when I heard about Guderian’s heart attack – my plane was being refuelled and I was talking to the engineers about repairs to the harbour. Speaking of Guderian, how is he?”

“Very ill, sir,” Bayerlein said hoarsely. “The doctor said it was a severe heart attack. He’s lucky to be alive – he’s in the hospital now.”

Kesselring nodded briskly. “I’m taking command as of this moment. I’ve already sent a message to Berlin and Rome. Now – what’s the current situation?”

Raus (when he lands) will be made commander of the africa corps at this point

edit:

still mad about the convoy... you may have drowned my grandfather :(

[Cymraeg]

Raus (when he lands) will be made commander of the africa corps at this point

edit:

still mad about the convoy... you may have drowned my grandfather :(

By the power of my keyboard... your grandfather is now sitting in Sorrento drinking Limoncello. Shame his ship has mechanical problems.

[BlairWitch749]

By the power of my keyboard... your grandfather is now sitting in Sorrento drinking Limoncello. Shame his ship has mechanical problems.

at this point he commands a panzer company in the 11th panzer regiment; 6th panzer division

going to africa is still better than his later otl destination... trying to relieve the stalingrad pocket where the division; despite ass stomping two soviet armies took over 65 percent casualties yikes

[Cymraeg]

at this point he commands a panzer company in the 11th panzer regiment; 6th panzer division

going to africa is still better than his later otl destination... trying to relieve the stalingrad pocket where the division; despite ass stomping two soviet armies took over 65 percent casualties yikes

Ouch. 65% casualties is nasty. At this time my maternal grandfather is making the step up from WOII to Lieutenant. He was a Sergeant at Dunkirk - which he never really talked about. (My paternal grandfather was a miner. Which is a different form of bravery.)

[Astrodragon]

Those forces where not able to interdict the HG Panzer and 10th panzer troop ships responding to torch from shorter range... I can't understate how precious 6th panzer was to the OKW... they wouldn't let any part of it sail without without the thickest escort of ships and aircraft possible... Una or any other sub would find it difficult to shadow a larger convoy because destroyers would be partially detached for anti sub sweeps... which are the sort of things that force you to manuever and break contact with little hope of regaining it

While I understand the convoy will be considered important, the record of Italian A/S isnt that good - the large majority of subs sunk by surface units were in coatal waters, and most RN sub losses weer due to mines, which isnt an issue in this case.

There is also the issue of trying to get the RM active and ready in a short time frame, not their most noticeable skill...

The main reason for getting an Italian convoy through was the absence of subs and plane (this was the same reason as in the Atlantic, against the worlds best A/S force...), so if the ships run into one of the notoriously aggressive RN sub commanders, ships are going down.

The bulk of the convoy will probably get through (as did the bulk of the OTL convoys) simply because there isnt a sub with torpedoes in the area.

[Alex1guy]

My grandfather at this point (or great-grandfather) had just saved the Cook Islands from Japanese Invasion. When the Japanese fleet was probing the area, my great-Grandfather proposed raising fake American flags above the islands to make it appear they were under American protection. In short, the plan worked =)

[Cymraeg]

2300 Hours, 30th September 1942, Coast Road, one mile from Daba
The engine in the big Opal truck did not sound healthy, thought Feldwebel Gunter Suddmann as he squinted desperately through the dust-smeared windscreen at the dim rear lights of the truck ahead. It was probably that bloody cylinder again. Well at least they had spare parts for it, unlike the British trucks that they’d been using and cannibalizing. They were dropping like flies.

A snore emerged from the right hand seat in the truck and he looked enviously at Hollen, who was sleeping the sleep of the utterly exhausted. The entire supply company was just about out on their feet. They’d been driving desperately back and forwards with supplies, replacements, fuel, ammunition and everything they could get their hands on.

The Opal was carrying fuel tonight, every drop of which was desperately needed. Rumour had it that the army was going back West soon. He wasn’t surprised – they’d been hammered good and hard by the Tommies. Speaking of the Tommies, he was surprised that the bloody RAF wasn’t flying over the road tonight. He supposed that they must be bombing the army again, poor bastards.

Something flashed out of the corner of his eye and he was starting to look to his right when the first tracers slammed into the truck ahead and turned it into a blazing wreck. He jerked the steering wheel violently to the right to avoid the rapidly slowing vehicle, so violently that Hollen woke with a startled gasp. “What the hell’s going on?” he yelped.

More tracers whipped out of the darkness to the South and Suddmann started to put his foot down when he caught sight of the flames in the wing mirror. The canvas cover at the back of the truck was on fire. And they were carrying fuel. “Shit, we have to get out of here, we’re on fire,” he shouted as he stood on the brakes.

More tracers whipped by and he could see by now that it was coming from more than one placed now as whoever the hell it was fired at the trucks that were now nicely lit by the burning ones. The Opal ground to a halt and then he and Hollen were out of the cab and running madly away from it.

They had good timing, because the fuel promptly went up like a bomb, spattering burning liquid along the road but fortunately not on Suddmann and Hollen as they cowered by the side of the road. As more trucks exploded or ground to a halt Suddmann looked around. It was not a good night because the British were on the road.

[Alex1guy]

Poor Germans, can't get a break lol

[whatisinaname]

The German's are due some good luck ?

[Alex1guy]

Lol short of an earthquake leveling the British Camp they are pretty well screwed at the moment.

[Some Bloke]

As I said earlier the heavier German casualties sustained ITTL's Alam Halfa makes the campaign from then on an exercise in futility. Most of the axis armoured forces were gutted in that battle, much of their reinforcements are feeding the fish, morale is at rock bottom, they've lost 2 commanders and the defences at El Alamein don't seem to be anywhere near as well prepared as in OTL. In short, I seriously doubt there'll even be a race to Tunisia. While OTL's El Alamein broke the back of Axis military power in North Africa, it looks like this version will actually anihilate the Axis position then an there rather than merely seal its fate.

[DuQuense]

They had good timing, because the fuel promptly went up like a bomb, spattering burning liquid along the road but fortunately not on Suddmann and Hollen as they cowered by the side of the road. As more trucks exploded or ground to a halt Suddmann looked around.
ROADBLOCK -- And someone will have to clear the Road, before anyone can use it.

The British have already put Rommel and Guderian out of the fight, If they can bag Kesselring, Whe have Dino sized butterflies.

[trekchu]

We should have those already. Alt-Normandy will have someone else in charge of the coastal defences for one.

[Derek Pullem]

It's only a month before Torch as well - I would imagine the "negotiations" with the Vichy generals (particularly in Algiers) will be much more positive if the Germans have been demonstrably routed and are retreating (as opposed to the confusion immediately post El Alamein in OTL)

[naraht]

It's only a month before Torch as well - I would imagine the "negotiations" with the Vichy generals (particularly in Algiers) will be much more positive if the Germans have been demonstrably routed and are retreating (as opposed to the confusion immediately post El Alamein in OTL)

Yeah but...

The less fighting in Operation Torch, the less experience that American Troops will get for the future...

[trekchu]

There's always Italy. The more the British do to defeat the DAK the more pull they have and IMO ITTL some form of Italian campaign is inevitable.

[Cymraeg]

0630 Hours, 1st October, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ
The first reports from aerial reconnaissance were coming in and so far the news was not good, to put it mildly, thought Bayerlein as he sat muzzily on a seat of the command caravan. He was operating on the last of the good coffee that a friendly Italian officer had donated after seeing the colour of Bayerlein’s face. At least was in better shape than von Mellenthin, who had collapsed the previous night. According to the doctors he had a bad case of amoebic dysentery. Not nice at all.

He looked at Kesselring, who was muttering to himself as he flipped through the message flimsies that had just been delivered. The Feldmarschall looked fresher than everyone else – but then everyone else looked like walking corpses right now, from lack of sleep and an over-abundance of stress.

“They have at least a battalion of armour at Daba,” Kesselring muttered at last. “Mixed armoured cars and tanks. Possibly more.” He turned to look at von Luck, who standing by the table and staring at the map. He was covered in dust and had a long streak of black along one arm, a souvenir from a burning tank Bayerlein had heard. “Von Luck – can we break through to the West?”

Von Luck stared at the map with red-rimmed eyes and then sighed deeply. “I don’t know sir,” he said quietly. “My group are down to less than 20 runners, mostly Mark IIs. We’re very low on fuel and ammunition.”

“What about 21st Panzer?”

Bayerlein looked down at the latest report from von Randow. “37 tanks sir.”

Kesselring looked up sharply. “I thought he had at least 50?”

“No fuel for the others sir.”

Kesselring ran a hand tiredly over his face. “Well, we’ll have to try. What’s the latest on the Italians?”

This brought a wince to Bayerlein’s face. “They’re withdrawing in good order to the North West, but their infantry are very short on motorised transport so they’re going more slowly than we might wish. Now that the sun is up they’re also being harassed by the RAF again.”

“And the cut-off part of 164th Division?”

“No word from them for over two hours sir. They did say that they were being heavily shelled again.”

Kesselring pulled a face. “We’re going to have to abandon them as Guderian planned. Very well gentlemen – I want an assault on the British position at Daba as soon as practically possible.”

[Domoviye]

I won't say everything that can go wrong has gone wrong for the Germans, but it's very close.
I wonder if there will be a strike on Greece ITTL.

[Astrodragon]

I won't say everything that can go wrong has gone wrong for the Germans, but it's very close.
I wonder if there will be a strike on Greece ITTL.

Its not that surprising, really.
At this point in time the AK resembled a set of missmatched plates being kept spinning (just) by an expert.
When the expert dies, things start to go wrong in a ripple effect, when all the things the AK had been doing wrong for a long time caught up with them, not helped by a new and competant British command which was happy to make use of any opportunities that came along.
The AK strategy was on borrowed time, as OTL 2nd Alamein showed...

[whatisinaname]

Been looking at 6 Panzer Division strength listed as late November 1942 (can’t find anything for Sept/Oct 42, but this is close enough), Panzer 3 50mm L/42 (73), Panzer 3 50mm L/60 (32), Panzer 4 75mm long barrelled (24), also 21 Panzer II.

Source for the above = Panzer Divisions: The Eastern Front 1941-43 – Osprey Publishing ISBN – 9781846033384, Page 64.

If the 6 Panzer Division can get to Africa, it would be useful for defence, not attack, not enough strength, unless the 15 and 21 Panzer Divisions can be rebuilt in part or whole, this could be (or not) the Germans bit of good luck?

[BlairWitch749]

Been looking at 6 Panzer Division strength listed as late November 1942 (can’t find anything for Sept/Oct 42, but this is close enough), Panzer 3 50mm L/42 (73), Panzer 3 50mm L/60 (32), Panzer 4 75mm long barrelled (24), also 21 Panzer II.

Source for the above = Panzer Divisions: The Eastern Front 1941-43 – Osprey Publishing ISBN – 9781846033384, Page 64.

If the 6 Panzer Division can get to Africa, it would be useful for defence, not attack, not enough strength, unless the 15 and 21 Panzer Divisions can be rebuilt in part or whole, this could be (or not) the Germans bit of good luck?

I have a source (will edit in later) that puts it at 160 panzer 4's as of December (maybe they dumped their older tanks on one of the other reforming divisions when the OKW decided to make them the 4th panzer army's new mailed fist

[whatisinaname]

I have a source (will edit in later) that puts it at 160 panzer 4's as of December (maybe they dumped their older tanks on one of the other reforming divisions when the OKW decided to make them the 4th panzer army's new mailed fist

That is strange, the same source (on page 67) quotes for 1 July 1943, 6 PD with 32 Pz IV (long barrled) and Panzer 3 50mm L/42 (34), Panzer 3 50mm L/60 (18) along with 18 Flame thrower tanks and 13 Pz II?

[Hyperion]

By December, am I correct in guessing that that is December of 1942?

If that ORBAT for November is correct, that puts the British at a bit more of a qualitative advantage right now against 6th Panzer.

Not that the quality of the soldiers that make up the division would be anything less, but if their equipment isn't all that great yet, this could make things a lot more even.

To be honest, at this point, I don't see why Kesselring doesn't keep 6th Panzer in Italy, or move them to Sicily, and request three or four additional divisions to defend the Italian peninsula. For any faults the man has, he isn't completely stupid, and even he must realize that at the moment the situation in the desert is not looking good long term.

[Cymraeg]

0900 Hours, 1st October 1942, Führerhauptquartier Wehrwolf, Ukraine
It had been a very long week, thought Kurt Zietzler as he strode rapidly across the courtyard towards the Fuhrer’s cabin. Being made Chief of Staff to the Army General Staff in Halder’s place had so far been both gratifying and bewildering. The former because he was in an important position of power and influence, the latter because it had taken him into the bizarre world that was the Fuhrer’s court, which was a place of constantly moving currents.

At the moment the Fuhrer was, well, obsessed with the capture of Stalingrad. The 6th Army had captured 90% of the city, but seemed to be stalled. Paulus had to pull his socks up and finish the job quickly, because winter was coming. Well, now he had to bring the Fuhrer up to speed with some rather unwelcome news from Africa.

Entering the main conference room he paused, saluted and then waited. Hitler was busy talking to Jodl and Keitel about Stalingrad again. He seemed dissatisfied with progress again. After a moment he looked up from the map and saw Zeitzler. “Oh Zietzler. What do you have for me?”

“An urgent message from Kesselring mein Fuhrer.” He looked down at the message flimsy. “’British forces have penetrated to Daba. We are counter-attacking West to free lines of communication in preparation to retiring to the Fuka position.’”

Hitler’s eyes blazed as he gestured at the message. “Let me see that.” As soon as Zeitzler handed it over he put his glasses and then glared down at it. After a long moment he clenched his fists, crumpling the paper.

“Retreat,” he grumbled angrily. “Retreat! So close to the Alexandria. So close to the Nile! He’s in charge of Panzerarmee Afrika, which has triumphed before against superior numbers. No.” He turned quickly to Zietzler. “I want a priority message sent at once to Kesselring. No retreat – he is to stand and conquer!”

“Mein Fuhrer,” said Zeitzler carefully, “Panzerarmee Afrika has suffered significant losses and…”

“Zietzler, you weren’t here earlier this year when Rommel smashed the British at Gazala and achieved great things because he knew that he could win,” Hitler told him with an expression on his face that was part snarl and part watery smile. “Get me a message pad.”

[Cymraeg]

1200 Hours, 1st October, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ
“Von Randow and von Luck are getting ready to attack now sir,” Bayerlein told Kesselring. “The delay was down to the fuel shortage. We’ve done our best to remedy that, but it means that our reserves are very low indeed at the moment. The Italian forces are… about to run out completely.”

Kesselring looked at him sharply and Bayerlein forced himself to meet that gaze. Even if they could break out along the road it meant that the Italian formations would probably be left behind. After a long moment Kesselring nodded in understanding. “Very well.”

“Sir,” Westphal interrupted from the doorway. “We have received an urgent message from the Fuhrer.” He held it out with a hand that was shaking slightly.

Kesselring took the message and read it quickly, a frown gathering on his face equally quickly. Then his eyebrows flew upwards. “My god,” he breathed, “It can’t be done.”

He placed the piece of paper on the table and Bayerlein reached out and took it. His eyebrows also went upwards at what he read. "To Field Marshal Kesselring. It is with trusting confidence in your leadership and the courage of the German-Italian troops under your command that the German people and I are following the heroic struggle in Egypt. In the situation which you find yourself there can be no other thought but to stand fast, yield not a yard of ground and throw every gun and every man into the battle. Considerable air force reinforcements are being sent to C.-in-C South. The Duce and the Commando Supremo are also making the utmost efforts to send you the means to continue the fight. Your enemy, despite his superiority, must also be at the end of his strength. It would not be the first time in history that a strong will has triumphed over the bigger battalions. As to your troops, you can show them no other road than that to victory or death. Adolf Hitler".

“It’s impossible,” Bayerlein whispered in horror. “My god, don’t they know what we’re facing?”

“You read the message,” Kesselring spat. He took a deep breath. “And I intend to ignore it. The Fuhrer has obviously not been properly informed of our situation. We will retreat once we have broken through at Daba.”

[John Farson]

Kesselring is very brave in his decision, since he knows very well that unless he can persuade Hitler, he could very well at the least be kicked out of the Heer. Or face a court martial for disobeying a direct order. Or even Herr Freisler and the People's Court:eek:

[Hyperion]

Kesselring is very brave in his decision, since he knows very well that unless he can persuade Hitler, he could very well at the least be kicked out of the Heer. Or face a court martial for disobeying a direct order. Or even Herr Freisler and the People's Court:eek:

At this point, if my understanding of the current situation on the battlefield is accurate, his biggest concern may well be trying not to become a POW.

[trekchu]

Kesselring is very brave in his decision, since he knows very well that unless he can persuade Hitler, he could very well at the least be kicked out of the Heer.


That's no problem then considering he was Luftwaffe...

[Alex1guy]

Hmmm the somewhat cushy position of a prisoner in a British POW camp, or facing the wrath of one of the most mentally unstable men in Europe... I know what I'd be looking at..

[BlairWitch749]

0900 Hours, 1st October 1942, Führerhauptquartier Wehrwolf, Ukraine
It had been a very long week, thought Kurt Zietzler as he strode rapidly across the courtyard towards the Fuhrer’s cabin. Being made Chief of Staff to the Army General Staff in Halder’s place had so far been both gratifying and bewildering. The former because he was in an important position of power and influence, the latter because it had taken him into the bizarre world that was the Fuhrer’s court, which was a place of constantly moving currents.

At the moment the Fuhrer was, well, obsessed with the capture of Stalingrad. The 6th Army had captured 90% of the city, but seemed to be stalled. Paulus had to pull his socks up and finish the job quickly, because winter was coming. Well, now he had to bring the Fuhrer up to speed with some rather unwelcome news from Africa.

Entering the main conference room he paused, saluted and then waited. Hitler was busy talking to Jodl and Keitel about Stalingrad again. He seemed dissatisfied with progress again. After a moment he looked up from the map and saw Zeitzler. “Oh Zietzler. What do you have for me?”

“An urgent message from Kesselring mein Fuhrer.” He looked down at the message flimsy. “’British forces have penetrated to Daba. We are counter-attacking West to free lines of communication in preparation to retiring to the Fuka position.’”

Hitler’s eyes blazed as he gestured at the message. “Let me see that.” As soon as Zeitzler handed it over he put his glasses and then glared down at it. After a long moment he clenched his fists, crumpling the paper.

“Retreat,” he grumbled angrily. “Retreat! So close to the Alexandria. So close to the Nile! He’s in charge of Panzerarmee Afrika, which has triumphed before against superior numbers. No.” He turned quickly to Zietzler. “I want a priority message sent at once to Kesselring. No retreat – he is to stand and conquer!”

“Mein Fuhrer,” said Zeitzler carefully, “Panzerarmee Afrika has suffered significant losses and…”

“Zietzler, you weren’t here earlier this year when Rommel smashed the British at Gazala and achieved great things because he knew that he could win,” Hitler told him with an expression on his face that was part snarl and part watery smile. “Get me a message pad.”


kesselring is man enough to ignore this order, damn the consequences

[BlairWitch749]

That is strange, the same source (on page 67) quotes for 1 July 1943, 6 PD with 32 Pz IV (long barrled) and Panzer 3 50mm L/42 (34), Panzer 3 50mm L/60 (18) along with 18 Flame thrower tanks and 13 Pz II?

my panzer aces book by franz kurkowski confirms this ( what you quoted above) kursk level strength (my grand father then was given a battalion in one of their panzer grenadier regiments

i had gotten the 160 panzer 4's from pete tsouras's panzer's on the eastern front; erhard raus (raus was commander of 6th panzer at this time) and his panzers

perhaps my source is a mistake and he mean 160 panzers as opposed to panzer 4's (considering we are on the same page at their kursk level strength)

[whatisinaname]

perhaps my source is a mistake and he mean 160 panzers as opposed to panzer 4's (considering we are on the same page at their kursk level strength)

That bit sounds better as total of 160 panzers of all types, as I can find no PD that has 160 Pz4's, the highest number is in the 70's :)

[whatisinaname]

Kesselring will withdraw to Fuka, whatever Hitler says, Kesselringshould be able to save what is left of the Panzerarmee Afrika.

At Fuka the HQ staff of the 15th Pz and 90th light should be able to start (or already are) forming with whatever is coming from the front to make a start on the defences.

The Germans were quite good at this stort of thing, forming ad hock units from divisional HQ staff etc to rebuild divisions?

Edit: also if Kesselring can get enough supplies/equipment/troops to Africa for defence as well?

[BlairWitch749]

That bit sounds better as total of 160 panzers of all types, as I can find no PD that has 160 Pz4's, the highest number is in the 70's :)

What does it have the Leibstandarte listed with?

[Cymraeg]

Kesselring will withdraw to Fuka, whatever Hitler says, Kesselringshould be able to save what is left of the Panzerarmee Afrika.

At Fuka the HQ staff of the 15th Pz and 90th light should be able to start (or already are) forming with whatever is coming from the front to make a start on the defences.

The Germans were quite good at this stort of thing, forming ad hock units from divisional HQ staff etc to rebuild divisions?

Edit: also if Kesselring can get enough supplies/equipment/troops to Africa for defence as well?

Unfortunately 15th Panzer and 90th Light were brought up and folded into von Luck's group.

[Gridley]

What would they be holding the RM in reserve for anyway? If they lose in Africa, attacking Malta isn't going to serve much of a purpose, and the Allies won't be limited in air cover in the central Mediterranean.

Am I missing something?

Fuel. Warships burn it in huge quantities - battleships worst of all. The RM only got a trickle of fuel for most of the war. They didn't hold the battle line in port as a reserve so much as they held it in port because if they ever sent it out cruising they wouldn't be able to refill its bunkers when it got back.


There is also the issue of trying to get the RM active and ready in a short time frame, not their most noticeable skill...


Indeed. "Six weeks readiness for sea." ;-)

Seriously, ships in port and not planned to sail shortly are inevitably undergoing maintenance - which on large warships can easily mean things are taken apart which take days to put back together. Historical accounts are almost always blind to this unless someone actually ordered the ship to sail on short notice and it wasn't able to.

It is also not unheard of to off-load ammunition and/or fuel for an extended stay in port, which must then of course be re-loaded before sailing; another longish task.

Note that on 12/7/41 two of Pac Fleet's 12 capital ships were on the West Coast for heavy maintenance, and another was in drydock at Pearl.

[BlairWitch749]

Fuel. Warships burn it in huge quantities - battleships worst of all. The RM only got a trickle of fuel for most of the war. They didn't hold the battle line in port as a reserve so much as they held it in port because if they ever sent it out cruising they wouldn't be able to refill its bunkers when it got back.



Indeed. "Six weeks readiness for sea." ;-)

Seriously, ships in port and not planned to sail shortly are inevitably undergoing maintenance - which on large warships can easily mean things are taken apart which take days to put back together. Historical accounts are almost always blind to this unless someone actually ordered the ship to sail on short notice and it wasn't able to.

It is also not unheard of to off-load ammunition and/or fuel for an extended stay in port, which must then of course be re-loaded before sailing; another longish task.

Note that on 12/7/41 two of Pac Fleet's 12 capital ships were on the West Coast for heavy maintenance, and another was in drydock at Pearl.


The RM had been planning to provide support to invade malta just 12 weeks before this and they had gone through a heavy shakedown and service schedule beforehand so their ships where more ready than usual (as was proven when they safely escorted the troopships of 10th panzer and HG panzer to Tunis and Bizerette in response to Torch)

[Gridley]

The RM had been planning to provide support to invade malta just 12 weeks before this and they had gone through a heavy shakedown and service schedule beforehand so their ships where more ready than usual (as was proven when they safely escorted the troopships of 10th panzer and HG panzer to Tunis and Bizerette in response to Torch)

Fair point, though I'd still expect them to have torn down quite a bit of gear for maintenance once they were no longer planned to sail for Malta.

[BlairWitch749]

Fair point, though I'd still expect them to have torn down quite a bit of gear for maintenance once they were no longer planned to sail for Malta.

the complete scrapping of the plan didn't happen right away in July when the air and parachute forces where shifted to Africa, the RM and some of the Italian amphibious forces remained in a decently high state of readiness afterwords; which is why you saw them have the capability to provide cover and support the HG and 10th panzer ships on short notice (Kesselring kept pushing the plan for weeks after it was proven unworkable in the strategic situation, so the RM didn't have a chance to stand down again)

also the Italian ships where in better shape than the year before, Littorio and Vittero Venito had been retrofitted with radar as had some of the destroyer flotillas

[Gridley]

the complete scrapping of the plan didn't happen right away in July when the air and parachute forces where shifted to Africa, the RM and some of the Italian amphibious forces remained in a decently high state of readiness afterwords; which is why you saw them have the capability to provide cover and support the HG and 10th panzer ships on short notice (Kesselring kept pushing the plan for weeks after it was proven unworkable in the strategic situation, so the RM didn't have a chance to stand down again)

also the Italian ships where in better shape than the year before, Littorio and Vittero Venito had been retrofitted with radar as had some of the destroyer flotillas

OK, I withdraw my support of the RM being unable to sortie in strength.

[BlairWitch749]

OK, I withdraw my support of the RM being unable to sortie in strength.

I'm not saying 24 hours notice... but with like a week they could have sent out the forces (minus a couple of units) that where planned for hercules which included 4 battleships 4 heavy cruisers 8 light cruisers 21 destroyers and a butt load of subs

the British med fleet at that moment had nothing heavier than a heavy cruiser to contest them (Barham sunk, Valiant and Queen Elizabeth sitting in the mud in Alexandria harbor undergoing repair)

I don't know exactly what mission they would have wanted to conduct, but the fleet was about as prepared as it could be (which it usually wasn't as you pointed out) to sortie between July and November 1942

[Gridley]

I'm trying to remember - did the RM go in for NGF? With so much of the fighting happening right along the coast the idea of countering the Royal Artillery with some real heavy metal might be appealing...

12.6" guns may be kinda weak for battleships, but to ground forces they're more like Thor's Hammer.

[BlairWitch749]

I'm trying to remember - did the RM go in for NGF? With so much of the fighting happening right along the coast the idea of countering the Royal Artillery with some real heavy metal might be appealing...

12.6" guns may be kinda weak for battleships, but to ground forces they're more like Thor's Hammer.

The British did this a couple of times early in the conflict... but to do that where the front is now (for the RM) would be insanely risky (too high a risk of air attack and too far from the RM's main operating bases)

[Astrodragon]

I'm not saying 24 hours notice... but with like a week they could have sent out the forces (minus a couple of units) that where planned for hercules which included 4 battleships 4 heavy cruisers 8 light cruisers 21 destroyers and a butt load of subs

the British med fleet at that moment had nothing heavier than a heavy cruiser to contest them (Barham sunk, Valiant and Queen Elizabeth sitting in the mud in Alexandria harbor undergoing repair)

I don't know exactly what mission they would have wanted to conduct, but the fleet was about as prepared as it could be (which it usually wasn't as you pointed out) to sortie between July and November 1942

Unfortunately for the RM, the RN still has plenty of spectacularly agressive sub skippers -with working torpedoes....:) :)

[Astrodragon]

The British did this a couple of times early in the conflict... but to do that where the front is now (for the RM) would be insanely risky (too high a risk of air attack and too far from the RM's main operating bases)

It also requires practice and training - I'm not sure the RM ever did this...

The RN, otoh, has been practising this for around 300 years....:) :)

[BlairWitch749]

It also requires practice and training - I'm not sure the RM ever did this...

The RN, otoh, has been practising this for around 300 years....:) :)

The RM put in a sustained shore bombardment training regiment in preparation for hercules... according to Kesselring's observations they became decently profecient at hitting marked ground targets (probably at huge expense in readiness for ship to ship combat)

[BlairWitch749]

Unfortunately for the RM, the RN still has plenty of spectacularly agressive sub skippers -with working torpedoes....:) :)

the destroyers now have radar so they are not as ineffective as they where in 1941

[Cymraeg]

1215 Hours, 1st October 1942, 104th (Essex Yeomanry) Regiment, Royal Horse Artillery 5 Miles SE of Daba
“Crash action! All stop! Crash action!”

The call went up from the Gun Position Officer over the radio as the command car slewed rapidly to one side from the rough track that had been created by the passage of hundreds of tyres and tracks over the day. The Regiment instantly responded, batteries splitting off as quads and guns deployed as fast as possible. This wasn’t a drill and the men knew that a crash action meant that their shells were desperately badly needed somewhere.

It was dusty as hell and at least two quads almost hit each other, but the trainers at Larkhill would have proud of the regiment, because the guns were deployed in just under five minutes. The GPO, who had been listening to the radio and desperately scribbling calculation on his pad issued the co-ordinates and a minute after that the 25-pounders were firing furiously.

The GPO looked at the guns and their sweating crews and then looked to the North. I wouldn't want to be under that little lot, he thought.

[Cymraeg]

1730 Hours, 1st October 1942, Afrika Korps (plus detachments), 2 miles East of Daba
God in heaven but his arm hurt. Hans von Luck grimaced as he carefully eased his probably broken left arm into his half-buttoned blouse, before buttoning it above and below his injured limb. Then he sighed and looked up.

All around him he could see smashed and burning armoured vehicles. Panzer Mark IIs, Mark IIIs, Sd.Kfz. 232s, they were all motionless. Here and there he could see his men pulling their injured comrades out of the vehicles and the medics were frantically running about.

He stood up and the breeze from the sea, just a few hundred meters away, ruffled his hair. He looked at the sparkling blue surface and then pulled out his field cap, which he tugged on one-handed.

At least, he thought bitterly as he started to walk Westwards, they had hurt the bastards. He could the smoke from at least 15 or 20 British tanks rising from their lines near Daba. However, they’d always had more tanks. And always more anti-tank guns and artillery. Those bloody guns had flayed his men, hammering them when they’d assembled to attack and then hitting again with even greater intensity during the first attack. Von Randow had been killed in that one so von Luck had taken over. He’d pulled the men back, reorganised them and then tried again. That attack had failed as well, although they’d pressed the British pretty damn hard.

There had been no third attack. More British units had arrived, outflanked them to the South and then shot them up. It was over.

As he walked slowly towards the British lines he could see distant figures starting to move towards him, with bayonets gleaming in the setting sun. It was a bit odd squinting towards the setting sun.

A tall figure with that distinctive British helmet approached him cautiously, holding a revolver. As von Luck approached him he could see from the embroidered insignia on the man’s shoulders that he was a major.

Von Luck stopped and saluted. “Major Hans von Luck, acting commanding officer of the Afrika Korps.”

The British officer’s eyes widened for a moment and then he saluted back. “Major Gwyn Richards, Green Howards.” He looked at the smoking wrecks to the East. “Are you here-”

Von Luck held up his hand to stop him. “Major, I am here to… to surrender my command. We have a lot of wounded. I would be grateful if you could take care of them.”

Richards looked at von Luck’s injured arm and then nodded slowly. “Of course.”

[Hyperion]

So after this battle, what forces of the army have survived.

[pike]

This defeat should make hitler look up at the very least.

[Hyperion]

This defeat should make hitler look up at the very least.

Maybe not him, at least enough to matter.

That being said, some of the generals and admirals that aren't Nazi crazy diehards might start playing things a bit more carefully.

If Kesselring gets captured or killed and the army routed, what are the odds that Hitler could throw blame on the Luftwaffe because of this? Things where going fine when Rommel was in charge, and Guderian did okay with what he had, but the army fell under that flyboy Kesselring.

I like the idea that Goering could end up taking some or all of the heat from Hitler because of this. Maybe enough to force him to quit or be shot.

[pike]

Who would replace Goreing then?

[Astrodragon]

the destroyers now have radar so they are not as ineffective as they where in 1941

Which is (a) poor, and (b) useless, as RN subs did not make surface attacks on warships or big convoys. (They did sometimes use a surface gun attack on something too small and helpless to waste a torpedo on, but this isnt the case here)

[Readman]

With Smiling Albert tellling Der Fuhrer to take a flying leap mayhaps it will lead to a further stiffening of resolve in other officers, so that at least some of the "Fuhrer-Befels" aren't followed to the letter. Then again maybe it just makes Hitler even more angry at the "traitorus army generals who don't follow his orders, etc etc" Although I guess he's a LW Officer, so maybe Goering can protect him. But even then Goering's influence wouldn't last forever. Anyways, good work.

[BlairWitch749]

Which is (a) poor, and (b) useless, as RN subs did not make surface attacks on warships or big convoys. (They did sometimes use a surface gun attack on something too small and helpless to waste a torpedo on, but this isnt the case here)

the subs run most of their patrol on the surface though, and submerge to attack, with the Italian destroyers now being able to detect them 15 to 20 miles out, even in patchy weather, there is a higher chance of avoiding the subs

[BlairWitch749]

With Smiling Albert tellling Der Fuhrer to take a flying leap mayhaps it will lead to a further stiffening of resolve in other officers, so that at least some of the "Fuhrer-Befels" aren't followed to the letter. Then again maybe it just makes Hitler even more angry at the "traitorus army generals who don't follow his orders, etc etc" Although I guess he's a LW Officer, so maybe Goering can protect him. But even then Goering's influence wouldn't last forever. Anyways, good work.

this will have interesting butterflies for stalingrad

prior to stalingrad, german forces had been encircled a couple times (notably at Demyansk) but they had been supplied enough by the LW to survive and powerful ground forces had freed them; now the major Egyptian disaster has occured prior to Stalingrad and proven that hold and wait for relief can indeed be hold and die...this could make an impression on Paulus and the people under him; it could make an impression on hitler himself

[whatisinaname]

Unfortunately 15th Panzer and 90th Light were brought up and folded into von Luck's group.

Oh, I thought you ment just the combat troops (excluding HQ staff), not all these two divisions personnel.

[whatisinaname]

What does it have the Leibstandarte listed with?

The book I quoted only lists Heer units nor SS.

[Cymraeg]

this will have interesting butterflies for stalingrad

prior to stalingrad, german forces had been encircled a couple times (notably at Demyansk) but they had been supplied enough by the LW to survive and powerful ground forces had freed them; now the major Egyptian disaster has occured prior to Stalingrad and proven that hold and wait for relief can indeed be hold and die...this could make an impression on Paulus and the people under him; it could make an impression on hitler himself

It's difficult looking at Hitler and his decision-making processes, mostly because while its tempting to have him constantly chewing the carpets the reality is far more complex. I have a copy of Hitler's War by Irving but I regard it at best as being deeply flawed. Actually just looking at it gives me the willies.

[Gridley]

Who would replace Goreing then?

Goering was bad enough that an average Luftwaffe senior officer picked at random would almost certainly be a great improvement. There are several potential candidates if you actually want a GOOD commander (not just an improvement on Goering).

this will have interesting butterflies for stalingrad

prior to stalingrad, german forces had been encircled a couple times (notably at Demyansk) but they had been supplied enough by the LW to survive and powerful ground forces had freed them; now the major Egyptian disaster has occured prior to Stalingrad and proven that hold and wait for relief can indeed be hold and die...this could make an impression on Paulus and the people under him; it could make an impression on hitler himself

Also, Hitler might plausibly blame the loss (privately/to his senior staff) on the Italians; if so, he's much less likely to trust them to hold the flank at Stalingrad. He might even extend his displeasure to other non-German troops such as, oh, say, the Romanians...

[BlairWitch749]

Goering was bad enough that an average Luftwaffe senior officer picked at random would almost certainly be a great improvement. There are several potential candidates if you actually want a GOOD commander (not just an improvement on Goering).



Also, Hitler might plausibly blame the loss (privately/to his senior staff) on the Italians; if so, he's much less likely to trust them to hold the flank at Stalingrad. He might even extend his displeasure to other non-German troops such as, oh, say, the Romanians...

It's too late to undo that mistake (about what is on the flanks since the Stalingrad battle is currently going on that moment) but the disaster in Egypt might give him a different response to Paulus' initial request to breakout (where he still could have by himself and pulled his forces back to the don river whilst holding a corridor open to secure army group a's supply lines)

It depends how deeply the failure in Egypt sticks with Hitler... in OTL the disaster at Stalingrad struck him very hard, he did allow pull backs and started listening to people; at least some of the time (only to be undone on July 20th at which point his paranoia and undercurrent insanity became unsuppressable and he went totally ape shit crazy)

[Gridley]

but the disaster in Egypt might give him a different response to Paulus' initial request to breakout (where he still could have by himself and pulled his forces back to the don river whilst holding a corridor open to secure army group a's supply lines)


Right, that's where I was going; Hitler sees that he SHOULD have allowed Guderian to breakout because he couldn't trust those lousy Italians. When Paulus requests his own breakout, Hitler sees that he's about to lose another army because of those same weak Italians and authorizes the withdrawal.

Of course, it is equally possible that Hitler blames someone/thing else, fails to notice the Italians on the flank at Stalingrad...

[naraht]

It's difficult looking at Hitler and his decision-making processes, mostly because while its tempting to have him constantly chewing the carpets the reality is far more complex. I have a copy of Hitler's War by Irving but I regard it at best as being deeply flawed. Actually just looking at it gives me the wiilies.

I'd change that to "looking at him gives me the willies", the Author, not the Subject. :)

[Cymraeg]

2107 Hours, 1st October, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ
Kesselring replaced the field phone onto its cradle slowly and then sighed deeply. Well, that was it. The game had been an interesting one, but now it was over. The race was run. He snorted. He could find a hundred more euphemisms for their failure, but the fact remained that… they had failed. They were in a kessel. A simple name for a militarily catastrophic situation.

He’d heard about the surrender of von Luck and the remains of the Afrika Korps. Given the losses that they’d suffered he didn’t really blame them. It looked as if the British had moved their X Corps much faster than they’d anticipated, so now Panzerarmee Afrika had an entire armoured corps behind it, along with a primarily infantry corps moving to support it.

And all the time the British forces that had penetrated the Axis lines in the North sat there and used the high ground that they had captured to direct heavy concentrations of artillery on anything moved. Oh and above them droned the RAF, shooting up the scraps that the artillery had left untouched.

Axis units were short on everything – fuel, food, ammunition, water and above all morale. There was no chance of another successful attack, not without the panzer divisions. He couldn’t blame the men, they’d worshipped Rommel and they’d had a huge amount of affection for ‘Hurrying Heinz’ Guderian. Losing both of them had been a terrible shock. At Guderian was still alive, barely. According to the doctors he needed a specialist.

As for the other side of the British lines, there was nothing that could break through. 6th Panzer was still being ferried to Tripoli – it wouldn’t be ready for weeks. And the only other units were supply companies. The best thing that they might be armed with was the odd MP 40. So no help there.

As for the Luftwaffe, well he was sorry to say that there was no help there either. Many of the airfields had been overrun and the surviving units were relocating back as fast as they could, desperate to flee the omnipresent British armoured cars, as well as the units of the thrice-damned Long Range Desert Group.

He sighed again and then picked up the phone again. “Tell Bayerlein that I have a mission for him. And I need an English-speaking officer for the radio.”

[John Farson]

2107 Hours, 1st October, Panzerarmee Afrika HQ
Kesselring replaced the field phone onto its cradle slowly and then sighed deeply. Well, that was it. The game had been an interesting one, but now it was over. The race was run. He snorted. He could find a hundred more euphemisms for their failure, but the fact remained that… they had failed. They were in a kessel. A simple name for a militarily catastrophic situation.

He’d heard about the surrender of von Luck and the remains of the Afrika Korps. Given the losses that they’d suffered he didn’t really blame them. It looked as if the British had moved their X Corps much faster than they’d anticipated, so now Panzerarmee Afrika had an entire armoured corps behind it, along with a primarily infantry corps moving to support it.

And all the time the British forces that had penetrated the Axis lines in the North sat there and used the high ground that they had captured to direct heavy concentrations of artillery on anything moved. Oh and above them droned the RAF, shooting up the scraps that the artillery had left untouched.

Axis units were short on everything – fuel, food, ammunition, water and above all morale. There was no chance of another successful attack, not without the panzer divisions. He couldn’t blame the men, they’d worshipped Rommel and they’d had a huge amount of affection for ‘Hurrying Heinz’ Guderian. Losing both of them had been a terrible shock. At Guderian was still alive, barely. According to the doctors he needed a specialist.

As for the other side of the British lines, there was nothing that could break through. 6th Panzer was still being ferried to Tripoli – it wouldn’t be ready for weeks. And the only other units were supply companies. The best thing that they might be armed with was the odd MP 40. So no help there.

As for the Luftwaffe, well he was sorry to say that there was no help there either. Many of the airfields had been overrun and the surviving units were relocating back as fast as they could, desperate to flee the omnipresent British armoured cars, as well as the units of the thrice-damned Long Range Desert Group.

He sighed again and then picked up the phone again. “Tell Bayerlein that I have a mission for him. And I need an English-speaking officer for the radio.”

Hitler's reaction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YQR36fQ_Xc

:)

[Cymraeg]

Hitler's reaction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YQR36fQ_Xc

:)

I love that bit of Downfall! :D

[Some Bloke]

Maybe we could make subtitles based on alternatehistory events?

[Alex1guy]

Haha but those of us who speak German know what he is saying :p

[Tank Cdr]

Maybe we could make subtitles based on alternatehistory events?

Some soldier here at Fort Polk did subtitles where Hitler was raving about being stationed here, but you would have to actually be stationed here to get it. It was very popular with the Fort Polk community however.

[marcus_aurelius]

Some soldier here at Fort Polk did subtitles where Hitler was raving about being stationed here, but you would have to actually be stationed here to get it. It was very popular with the Fort Polk community however.
I'm always amazed how military men (and women :p) can make fun out of everything. ;) Keep up the spirit! :)

Marc A

[naraht]

With the 6th Panzer being sent to Tripoli, will the British actually end up moving more slowly than they did in OTL because they will have more difficulty taking Tripoli?

Also, where was 6th Panzer at this point in OTL?

[BlairWitch749]

With the 6th Panzer being sent to Tripoli, will the British actually end up moving more slowly than they did in OTL because they will have more difficulty taking Tripoli?

Also, where was 6th Panzer at this point in OTL?

in otl they where resting in brittany france; shortly to be dispatched to try and relieve the troops at stalingrad

[Cymraeg]

With the 6th Panzer being sent to Tripoli, will the British actually end up moving more slowly than they did in OTL because they will have more difficulty taking Tripoli?

Also, where was 6th Panzer at this point in OTL?

In OTL it's in France, recovering from losses taken on the Russian Front. Towards the end of 1942 it was involved in Operation Winter Storm - the attempt by Manstein to relieve Paulus at Stalingrad.

[Hyperion]

With the 6th Panzer being sent to Tripoli, will the British actually end up moving more slowly than they did in OTL because they will have more difficulty taking Tripoli?

Also, where was 6th Panzer at this point in OTL?

With respect to the fighting men of the 6th, the British have just crushed an entire German/Italian field army. Fighting their way through a single division, even one with well trained and well equipped troops, is not going to be a problem.

That, and I figure even with the faster British advance, by the time they get close to Tripoli, it will be time for the Torch landing in Morocco and Algeria, so the Axis forces in North Africa will have other problems behind them to worry about.

That and as someone mentioned earlier, though I haven't seen more mention of it, given the better British success so far due to the POD of this timeline, an easier defection of Vichy French forces North Africa can not be discounted.

[Gridley]

Sounds like the best thing for the Germans to do is pull back the 6th PzDiv to Sicily/Italy.

[Hyperion]

Sounds like the best thing for the Germans to do is pull back the 6th PzDiv to Sicily/Italy.

Regardless of what the Germans do, this is going to be a huge morale blow to the Italians.

Something comes to mind now that Kesselring is out of the picture and apparently on his was to becoming a POW.

In OTL, Rommel and other German commanders wanted to pull out to northern Italy, around or above the Po River Valley area, far above Rome. Kesselring was the one who wanted to hold the allies in the south.

I know Rommel is dead in this timeline, but with Kesselring out of the picture, might the Germans decide to pull back while they can and reinforce their positions closer to the Italian Alps? Even if the Allies take all of Italy up into the northern part of the country, trying to fight across the Alps would make the OTL Italian campaign look like a walk in the park by comparison.

[BlairWitch749]

please have guderian flown out before the army collapses (can he be recouping at a main hospital in tripoli or something?) he is a very interesting POV character for the story to continue around

[Cymraeg]

That's what's fascinating me more and more Hyperion - we've now got Rommel dead, so no Normandy 44 strategy, Guderian an invalid POW, so no rational german tank production strategy and no Kesselring, so no OTL Italian campaign. Oh and 6th Panzer won't be participating in Winter Storm. Butterflies a-plenty!

[Cymraeg]

please have guderian flown out before the army collapses (can he be recouping at a main hospital in tripoli or something?) he is a very interesting POV character for the story to continue around

I did think about that, but then I thought that the flight might have killed him and I've become quite fond of the bad-tempered old bugger. I still wonder what he left out of Panzer Leader though.

[Gridley]

I know Rommel is dead in this timeline, but with Kesselring out of the picture, might the Germans decide to pull back while they can and reinforce their positions closer to the Italian Alps?

Politically infeasible until/unless Italy flips sides.

[BlairWitch749]

I did think about that, but then I thought that the flight might have killed him and I've become quite fond of the bad-tempered old bugger. I still wonder what he left out of Panzer Leader though.

have him shipped back on a warship or something... keep him in the story even if it's just for the lulz

it would be fun to have him replace halder when he recovers

Hitler: I demand the 6th army remain at stalingrad, we will make a supply corridor to them, they must fight to the last man
HG: Umm my fuhrer I don't think that is such a good idea
Hitler: What why not
HG: Well you know, Egypt, Panzer Army Africa surrenders we lose a lot of experienced personel and officers and lose the campaign... you remember?
Hitler: Oh that... well that only happened because you fell ill, everything was going great before then
HG: I don't think so, the front was in shambles before I got there, and standing in place didn't do us any favors
Hitler: I get the feeling we have had this discussion before
HG: Yea, outside Moscow December 1941, same sort of thing loss of experienced personal and officers, loss of equipment, we where only saved by the Russians not properly massing their forces
Hitler: How did I handle that?
HG: You fired me and repeated the process several more times to the point where it's starting to look like we might lose the war
Hitler: I see... well I'll tell you what, let's order the 6th army to stay at stalingrad, and if they are destroyed and all of them die in the city or in siberian prison camps I owe you a diet coke

:p

more seriously, if the front implodes completely now better to cancel 6th panzer's deployment and keep them in reserve along with a couple of infantry formations to shore up benny (they would have a good window anyway... nobody is invading sicily in winter I don't think)

that still leaves Germany with the ability to concentrate a fairly large battle group (since they won't have the tunisian debacle) to try and free the 6th army (assuming Hitler turns down Paulus' request to breakout right away)

[trekchu]

We might have Paulus try to seize the opportunity and make the request earlier. If he and HG/whoever cite Egypt as an example the Austrian might listen and one my uncles might live.

[Gridley]

We might have Paulus try to seize the opportunity and make the request earlier. If he and HG/whoever cite Egypt as an example the Austrian might listen and one my uncles might live.

Or, heck, Paulus might look at Egypt and say $$%! it, I'm not committing suicide OR dying in a Soviet camp. I'm leaving, and I'm taking my army with me!

"Order to all units: henceforth the city formerly known as known as 'Kiev' is to be referred to on all maps and orders as 'Stalingrad.' The city formerly known as 'Stalingrad' is to be referred to as 'Springfield.' In accordance with orders from High Command, all units are to take positions to defend Stalingrad..."

[BlairWitch749]

Or, heck, Paulus might look at Egypt and say $$%! it, I'm not committing suicide OR dying in a Soviet camp. I'm leaving, and I'm taking my army with me!

"Order to all units: henceforth the city formerly known as known as 'Kiev' is to be referred to on all maps and orders as 'Stalingrad.' The city formerly known as 'Stalingrad' is to be referred to as 'Springfield.' In accordance with orders from High Command, all units are to take positions to defend Stalingrad..."

The army despite being bloodied still had 20 big divisions in it when it was first encircled. There was no particular reason (logistically or capability wise) they couldn't mass the XVI panzer corps and a couple of their good infantry divisions like the 44th on the southwest corner of the kessel; broken out and made like hell for kotelnikovo and eventually rostov whilst holding open a corridor for army group a to pull back; hell if paulus did this right away he could have pinched off some of the soviet spearheads in conjunction with relieving forces coming from the north and west (6th and 11th panzer)

[MerryPrankster]

Wow, if the butterflies lead to a Stalingrad breakout or major issues in Germany itself, things are going to get interesting.

[BlairWitch749]

Wow, if the butterflies lead to a Stalingrad breakout or major issues in Germany itself, things are going to get interesting.

especially if 6th panzer can be pulled back and retained in italy for defensive purposes and the axis for all intents gives up on africa

that would still leave the germans with the leibstandarte, 24th panzer, 10th panzer, hg panzer, 16th panzer grenadier, 2nd parachute, 11th panzer 336th infantry and a couple of other formations (plus considerable LW assets, especially transport not being soaked up in tunisia) to form a large battle group to either rescue paulus or possible participate in a potential backhand blow if he pulls back immediately

[Gridley]

especially if 6th panzer can be pulled back and retained in italy for defensive purposes and the axis for all intents gives up on africa

that would still leave the germans with the leibstandarte, 24th panzer, 10th panzer, hg panzer, 16th panzer grenadier, 2nd parachute, 11th panzer 336th infantry and a couple of other formations (plus considerable LW assets, especially transport not being soaked up in tunisia) to form a large battle group to either rescue paulus or possible participate in a potential backhand blow if he pulls back immediately

(Nod) This is starting to look like one of those "The Germans do better by first doing worse" situations. :-}

Personally, I find such things interesting and amusing.

[El Pip]

Wow, if the butterflies lead to a Stalingrad breakout or major issues in Germany itself, things are going to get interesting.
If things go well enough around Stalingrad Germany may even find itself fully occupied by the Allies rather than divided. Which would be a vast improvement for all involved.

[Obfuscated]

(Nod) This is starting to look like one of those "The Germans do better by first doing worse" situations. :-}

Personally, I find such things interesting and amusing.

Unless they do well enough that Hiroshima and Nagashima get butterflied.
Then their score counter flips into the negative.

[BlairWitch749]

(Nod) This is starting to look like one of those "The Germans do better by first doing worse" situations. :-}

Personally, I find such things interesting and amusing.

it's hit or miss

in the desert god (written by myself and OKH_1946) we had the 8th army similarly gobble up the panzer army africa prior to torch thereby preventing the large scale reinforcement into Tunisia... Hitler still ordered the 6th army to stay, and manstein's forces (enlarged as I suggested here) broke into the city; however, in dirving all the way to the city they pulled themselves out of position and got annihilated in operation little saturn

so it can certainly work the other way if paulus is nailed to the city

[Cymraeg]

0200 Hours 2nd October 1942, Führerhauptquartier Wehrwolf, Ukraine
When the staff officer arrived at Zietzler’s office he was running, and by the look on his face he did not have good news. “Sir, you need to see this at once,” the signals captain gasped as he held out a message flimsy. “It’s from Egypt.”

Zietzler, who was horribly tired after a very long day, took the message with a frown on his face and more than a squirrel of worry in his stomach. The last message they’d received had been hours ago – and it hadn’t been a good one. Then he looked down at the message and his heart seemed to stop. “My god,” he breathed. “My god.”

Kesselring had surrendered what had remained of Panzerarmee Afrika. A German Field Marshall had surrendered a German army. These were things that had never happened before. No German Field Marshall had ever surrendered before. No German Army had ever surrendered before. The shock was literally paralysing. The shame was just as bad.

At the same time he could understand the reasons why Kesselring had done what he had – from all accounts the situation had been militarily catastrophic. But still… Oh my god. Hitler would have to be told. Well, at least he wasn’t going to be the man to do it. He didn’t envy Jodl the job. Well. Time to see how the Fuhrer reacted to disastrous news. He had a sneaking feeling that it wouldn’t be good.

[BlairWitch749]

0200 Hours 2nd October 1942, Führerhauptquartier Wehrwolf, Ukraine
When the staff officer arrived at Zietzler’s office he was running, and by the look on his face he did not have good news. “Sir, you need to see this at once,” the signals captain gasped as he held out a message flimsy. “It’s from Egypt.”

Zietzler, who was horribly tired after a very long day, took the message with a frown on his face and more than a squirrel of worry in his stomach. The last message they’d received had been hours ago – and it hadn’t been a good one. Then he looked down at the message and his heart seemed to stop. “My god,” he breathed. “My god.”

Kesselring had surrendered what had remained of Panzerarmee Afrika. A German Field Marshall had surrendered a German army. These were things that had never happened before. No German Field Marshall had ever surrendered before. No German Army had ever surrendered before. The shock was literally paralysing. The shame was just as bad.

At the same time he could understand the reasons why Kesselring had done what he had – from all accounts the situation had been militarily catastrophic. But still… Oh my god. He was going to have to tell Hitler what had happened. He flinched at the thought but then he forced himself to stand. Well. Time to see how the Fuhrer reacted to disastrous news. He had a sneaking feeling that it wouldn’t be good.


the nice thing for Zietzler is that he doesn't have to tell Hitler (suggested retcon for historical accuracy here)... africa is under the command purview of the OKW, Zietzler can dump this problem on Jodl or Keitel and wash his hands of it and watch the bastards squirm

[Cymraeg]

the nice thing for Zietzler is that he doesn't have to tell Hitler (suggested retcon for historical accuracy here)... africa is under the command purview of the OKW, Zietzler can dump this problem on Jodl or Keitel and wash his hands of it and watch the bastards squirm

Damn, you're right. One retcon coming right up.

[Cymraeg]

0559 Hours, 2nd October, London
The announcer looked at the lights on the wall and permitted himself a small sip of water as the seconds counted down. He needed to have a good steady voice for this broadcast. It would never do to get all excited and gabble it out.

Right. 6am exactly. The light flashed red and then he started to read.

“This is the BBC Home and Forces programme. This is Bruce Belfrage. The Axis forces in the Western Desert, after almost four days and nights of ceaseless attacks by our land and air forces, have surrendered after being surrounded. The Axis commander, Field Marshall Kesselring, formally surrendered his forces to General Montgomery in the early hours of the morning, Egyptian time, ending what General Montgomery has named the Battle of El Alamein.

“The Prime Minister, Mr Churchill, is to make a statement on the battle in the House of Commons this morning.

“Such is the scale of the victory by our forces that the Axis now has very little strength remaining in Egypt, and their few remaining units are now fleeing in disorder towards the Libyan border.”

[Some Bloke]

What axis forces are left in Libya? How long will it take to mop up?
I doubt they'd be able to mount any significant resistance, much less try to break into Tunisia.

[Cymraeg]

0900 Hours, 2nd October 1942, Coast Road to Alexandria
Well, so far he was closer to the Nile than he would ever have gotten otherwise, Bayerlein thought wryly as the truck sped Eastwards. He was one of the lucky ones, who were being driven instead of walking. It seemed that he was senior enough and injured enough to be sent to hospital.

Guderian at least had been sent by ambulance – the British had been very quick and very careful about that – and Kesselring had been sent by staff car to have lunch with Montgomery himself. He permitted himself a small smile. It had shades of Marlborough and Tallard at Blenheim.

The smile faded as he remembered the long lines of German and Italian troops being disarmed and marched Eastwards. Panzerarmee Afrika was gone. He never thought that he’d seen anything like that. He’d hoped that it could never happen. He’d been wrong.

He looked out of the back of the truck. He could see palm trees here and there. Ah, Alexandria. He’d kill for an ice-cold lager right now.

[Cash]

Excellent! I've enjoyed this story quite a bit, but would I be out of line to hope that its winding down means you'll have some time for Cato's Cavalry again?

[Hyperion]

Or, heck, Paulus might look at Egypt and say $$%! it, I'm not committing suicide OR dying in a Soviet camp. I'm leaving, and I'm taking my army with me!

"Order to all units: henceforth the city formerly known as known as 'Kiev' is to be referred to on all maps and orders as 'Stalingrad.' The city formerly known as 'Stalingrad' is to be referred to as 'Springfield.' In accordance with orders from High Command, all units are to take positions to defend Stalingrad..."

After Rommel, Guderian, and Kesselring, among others, have either been killed off or captured, I think it's quite likely that a good number of senior German officers or other field commanders that are high enough or smart enough to know how to get away with stuff might start either ignoring orders, or deciding to intentionally misinterpret orders, or having sudden and unexpected communications breakdowns a lot.

[whatisinaname]

With Africa now under allied control, could the invasion of Italy be sooner rather than later.

For example the resources use for Torch could they be use to invade Italy at the end of 1942 or not (after all does Torch need to happen ITTL)?

Also who is going to take over Kesselring's command?

[Derek Pullem]

Excellent! I've enjoyed this story quite a bit, but would I be out of line to hope that its winding down means you'll have some time for Cato's Cavalry again?

It would be good to have an extension of this TL sometime - "Fragments" anyone?

[Derek Pullem]

With Africa now under allied control, could the invasion of Italy be sooner rather than later.

For example the resources use for Torch could they be use to invade Italy at the end of 1942 or not (after all does Torch need to happen ITTL)?

Also who is going to take over Kesselring's command?

I'm not sure Africa is that secure yet - based on fastest possible pursuit taking out any delays due to defensive lines at El Aghelia and Buerat Tripoli won't fall until mid-December which still means that a defense at at Marath line is possible.

Real question though is what will Torch look like - Allies may be tempted to significantly re-inforce the Algiers attack particularly if the Vichy French are more co-operative

After that then even if Hitler makes the same call to defend Tunisia it's debatable that they will be effective. In fact I'd go as far as to say it's more likely that Hitler would choose not to defend Tunisia in this case as it's likely that the Italians will be looking "wobbly" even sooner than OTL

One impact of the increased casualties in the Western Desert may be a weakening of the Stalingrad front. Certainly 6th Pz are diverted and I would imagine that Italian 8th Army would be reduced or even withdrawn completely. Question is does this make Hitler more cautious (unlikely but just about non-ASB) or does Saturn become much much feasible and end up trapping the entire Army Group A in the Caucausus

[Some Bloke]

Good points Derek and whatsinaname, especially the question of command, with all the major field units captured along with their commanders, who is the senior axis officer in Libya?

Seeing as the Axis field army been utterly anihilated, pushing into Tunisia is out of the question, Vichy forces in North Africa would be much more confident of repulsing any attempt to enter their territory and the identity of the winning side in Africa will be proved beyond any reasonable doubt. The real question is, how exactly with the Axis position in Libya be dealt with once and for all?

Given Monty's style I think he would regroup etc before resuming the offensive, so that would buy time to prepare the Marath line, the real question is, how much time? Does Axis command in the area have the men and material to add extra depth to the fortifications? If not what are its main weaknesses that an opposing force can exploit?

Finally, how does an earlier switch in North Africa affect politics/public opinion/relations with the axis/La Resistance! In mainland Vichy France?

[BlairWitch749]

After Rommel, Guderian, and Kesselring, among others, have either been killed off or captured, I think it's quite likely that a good number of senior German officers or other field commanders that are high enough or smart enough to know how to get away with stuff might start either ignoring orders, or deciding to intentionally misinterpret orders, or having sudden and unexpected communications breakdowns a lot.

this was a side effect after stalingrad in otl... people like hausser, manstein, deitrich and model started ignoring stand and die orders to just act about on their own initiative... a risky game though, if it worked out, Hitler would pretend the order never happened and shower praise (on himself first) on the generals; when it didn't work, there was a good chance of being thrown out of the army

[BlairWitch749]

With Africa now under allied control, could the invasion of Italy be sooner rather than later.

For example the resources use for Torch could they be use to invade Italy at the end of 1942 or not (after all does Torch need to happen ITTL)?

Also who is going to take over Kesselring's command?

you would want someone who served in italy or had some connections there... maybe ferdinand schoerner

[Gridley]

Nifty update!

Unless they do well enough that Hiroshima and Nagashima get butterflied.
Then their score counter flips into the negative.

Well, yes. :-} There's certainly an upper limit to how well the Axis can do.

With Africa now under allied control, could the invasion of Italy be sooner rather than later.

For example the resources use for Torch could they be use to invade Italy at the end of 1942 or not (after all does Torch need to happen ITTL)?


The RM has lost a CA, but unless they've taken much heavier losses off-screen the Allies are unlikely to try an invasion of Sicily (or mainland Italy) without air cover from Africa... which they can only get from a Torch-like operation.

Sure, they might do a landing a little bit further east.

[whatisinaname]

you would want someone who served in italy or had some connections there... maybe ferdinand schoerner

I would think that in 1942 schoerner would be considered to junior, as on the 15 May 1942 he had been promoted to General der Gebirgstruppe?

Schoerner in OTL was promoted at the folowing dates to the following ranks

Generaloberst - 20 May 1944
Generalfeldmarschall - 5 April 1945

According to wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Sch%C3%B6rner#Dates_of_Rank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Sch%C3%B6rner#Dates_of_Rank)

++++

The only name that keeps springing into my head is Gerd von Rundstedt to replace Kesselring?

[Derek Pullem]

you would want someone who served in italy or had some connections there... maybe ferdinand schoerner

Why complicate things - just use OTL von Arnim:confused:

(assuming no panzer army to Tunisia)

[BlairWitch749]

I would think that in 1942 schoerner would be considered to junior, as on the 15 May 1942 he had been promoted to General der Gebirgstruppe?

Schoerner in OTL was promoted at the folowing dates to the following ranks

Generaloberst - 20 May 1944
Generalfeldmarschall - 5 April 1945

According to wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Sch%C3%B6rner#Dates_of_Rank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Sch%C3%B6rner#Dates_of_Rank)

++++

The only name that keeps springing into my head is Gerd von Rundstedt to replace Kesselring?

it's not exactly a big command; Mackensen and Hube commanded forces there (not the theater but the sub armies) and they where only 3 star generals

if Hitler was willing to spare him the ideal theater commander would be Wolfram Von Richtoffen who has experience working with the Italians; then you could have Schoerner command the ground troops (since he had served in Italy in WW1; Paulus did as well but he is kind of busy at the moment)

[Astrodragon]

Are we assuming the weather will be basically the same as OTL?

If it is, the followup by the British will be faster, as they wont have the terrible conditions that bogged them down in the pursuit after the (later) OTL 2nd Alamein...
So they may just be able to keep bumping the Germans all the way back into Tunis.

[Some Bloke]

Does the axis have the men and equipment to get past Le Tassigny ITTL? Personally I doubt it, but ...

[High Plains Drifter]

Not just how further east can Torch land, but how much sooner can Torch be launched?

How much did OTL El Alamein move the perception of North African Vichy leadership. Granted this is an even bigger victory, but we are not talking about the most .... enlightened(?) leadership with Darlan, Giraud, and most of the others.

[whatisinaname]

it's not exactly a big command; Mackensen and Hube commanded forces there (not the theater but the sub armies) and they where only 3 star generals

if Hitler was willing to spare him the ideal theater commander would be Wolfram Von Richtoffen who has experience working with the Italians; then you could have Schoerner command the ground troops (since he had served in Italy in WW1; Paulus did as well but he is kind of busy at the moment)

The reason why I suggested Gerd von Rundstedt is that he was well respected and would be a stabilizing influence on this command after all it has just lost two FM in a row, if reinforcements were sent this command would grow.

I do not consider Wolfram Von Richtoffen a "stabilizing influence" ?

[whatisinaname]

What is left to defend Africa with most of this army lost http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/42-oob/42-10-23/di-pz-aok.html (http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_germany/42-oob/42-10-23/di-pz-aok.html)and the only reinforcements on the way is the 6PD?

[Hyperion]

Not just how further east can Torch land, but how much sooner can Torch be launched?

How much did OTL El Alamein move the perception of North African Vichy leadership. Granted this is an even bigger victory, but we are not talking about the most .... enlightened(?) leadership with Darlan, Giraud, and most of the others.

There is no real way Torch can be launched sooner, unless this defeat makes the Vichy forces in North Africa switch sides a lot sooner.

A lot of the US units involved had only just been combat readied prior to the landings, and Torch stands out in WW2 as the only time US troops hit the beaches after coming directly from US ports, no stopping in Britain or anywhere else along the way. Realistically, at this point in time, I don't think moving the landings up a week or so is going to matter all that much in what by the end of 1942, or earlier in 1943 than OTL will be a dead theater.

One thing I'm curious to look at. In OTL, 9th Australian division was requested to be sent back to Australia in October 1942, and finally approved for redeployment home in December 1942. Roosevelt and Churchill where initially against sending the division back, despite the urging of Australian PM John Curtin.

With the situation in North Africa coming to a close sooner and the British in a much stronger position compared to OTL, perhaps Churchill can get the drop on the Australians and send the division home sooner. Australia gets their infantry division home before Christmas of 1942 to help fight the Japanese, and Churchill might be able to slightly improve British standing with the Australians for sending the division home some months sooner than OTL and not arguing against the transfer.

[Alex1guy]

Is this not being continued?

[Cymraeg]

Is this not being continued?

I'll be posting something later today - I've been a bit busy freelancing lately.

[Alex1guy]

I look forward too it =)

[Cymraeg]

1300 Hours 4th October 1942, Führerhauptquartier Wehrwolf, Ukraine
It had not been a pleasant day and a half, Zeitzler thought tiredly as he stood by the table and watched as the Fuhrer glared down at the map. So far the news from Egypt was still very bad.

Kesselring’s surrender meant that the nearest divisional-sized unit was the 136 Infantry Division Giovani Fascisti, a motorised formation that had been at the oasis at Siwa during the battle of 2nd Alamein. Zeitzler still wasn’t sure why a valuable motorised division has been at Siwa, but at least it had been able to escape the disaster that had overcome Kesselring’s main forces. Right now the division was being redeployed North-West as fast as possible towards Tobruk, where Nehring was trying to pull things together, despite the fact that he had barely recovered from the wound he had suffered at Alam Halfa. Apparently there was supposed to be an Italian in charge somewhere, but Zeitzler had no idea who or for that matter where.

Then there were the fleeing supply units, bother German and Italian that were heading West as fast as possible. These weren’t really equipped to be fighting units however, and besides the British armoured car units were harrying them as they went, making the retreat even worse. To Hitler’s anger the supply and repair bases behind the old lines had been either captured by the British or destroyed by the retreating Axis units, so a number of panzers that could have been restored to working order had been lost.

Put simply the cupboard was bare in terms of Axis manpower in North Africa. The remaining Italian formations in North Africa were either empty shells of their former glory or were far too small. Combining everything might result in an understrength division of highly uneven quality.
As for 6th Panzer, well the advance elements were being unloaded in Tripoli at the moment, but the majority of the division was still in Italy. Hitler had changed his mind twice now about holding off on the transfer – first it was off and then it was on. Or possibly the other way around.

The question was, what did Hitler want to do with North Africa? Mussolini certainly desperately needed to save Italian control of Libya, if only for political reasons. Losing Italian East Africa had been bad enough. Losing thousands of Italian soldiers at El Alamein, followed by losing Libya would be a catastrophe for the Duce. He had sent numerous appeals for more German help.

Which put the ball firmly back into Hitler’s court. At least he’d stopped shouting about Kesselring’s cowardice at not fighting to the last man and not committing suicide. “I want a full report from Nehring,” the Fuhrer snapped as he stood over the map. “I want to know what we can ship to Libya at once and defend it. If need be we’ll fly the men in. I want Tripoli held.”

Lovely, Zeitzler thought sardonically. Then he paled slightly. He just hoped that Mussolini, in his desperation, didn’t pull any Italian units from the Eastern Front. A) they wouldn’t be able to get to Libya in time and b) the Eastern Front needed every man he could get his hands on right now. The fighting in Stalingrad was like a hideous beast with a bottomless appetite – it was devouring units whole. At the moment 6th Army’s flanks was being protected by a hodge-podge of Axis units, including an Italian army. It had made Halder nervous and he could certainly see why.

For a moment he thought about pointing out that Germany didn’t need North Africa and that any forces sent there would be as good as lost. But he didn’t. He wasn’t mad.

[naraht]

All in on a 2 of clubs and a 5 of hearts with the Queen, Jack and Ten of spades on the flop.

[MerryPrankster]

If the Italians yank their units in the East, what will the Sixth Army need to do in order to avoid its OTL fate?

[BlairWitch749]

-snip-
delivering bad news to hitler at this time was not a good career move

my favorite is when he flipped out on jodl at the beginning of september

paraphrased for humor and simplicity

AH: I'm mad that army group A hasn't captured Baku and the entire caucuses yet; why is there such a lack of progress
AJ: My fuhrer; field marshal list's forces are suffering from a desperate fuel shortage and are too far from the main rail head to keep advancing without consolidating; the terrain and russian resistance are difficult obstacles
AH: Our Nazi German superhuman determination and improvization should overcome these things
AJ: Eh... well he is advancing on a front 500 miles wide and his two axis of attack are separated by 200 miles; he simply doesn't have enough forces to continue the advance, especially since you took all of his reserves and air power to go into a death match at stalingrad
AH: What that doesn't make any fucking sense, who gave that order
AJ: (hands hitler a copy of the orders signed by him) umm you did my fuhrer
AH: What? You ungerman asshole; signal field marshal list that he is relieved immediately
AJ: Should I name a replacement
AH: No I'll command the army myself in my spare time (which he did which was the most crazy thing of all the crazy things in case blue)
AJ: Umm ok
AH: Oh and get me Paulus' file I am going to think about replacing you with him and giving Von Seydlitz the sixth army you commie jew etc


:rolleyes:

[Tyg]

Kesselring’s surrender meant that the nearest divisional-sized unit was the 136 Infantry Division Giovani Fascisti, a motorised formation that had been at the oasis at Siwa during the battle of 2nd Alamein. Zeitzler still wasn’t sure why a valuable motorised division has been at Siwa, but at least it had been able to escape the disaster that had overcome Kesselring’s main forces.

What earthly reason could there have been for keeping that unit at Siwa? That seems OTL, mostly because I don't think you could make it up.

[BlairWitch749]

What earthly reason could there have been for keeping that unit at Siwa? That seems OTL, mostly because I don't think you could make it up.

there was a full strength german motorized infantry division (the 16th) at elista (which hadn't fired it's guns in 3 months) during Manstein's operation Winter Storm which if added to 6th panzer would probably have been enough to break through to 6th army; however Hitler and Kliest for reasons that are asb even by nazi standards refused to release the division from the middle of nowhere to rescue the 200k trapped men

[Cymraeg]

What earthly reason could there have been for keeping that unit at Siwa? That seems OTL, mostly because I don't think you could make it up.

It was there in OTL - I was surprised as well. Apparently its commander tried to persuade Rommel that, given sufficient fuel (always a touchy subject with Erwin at the best of times) the division could attack straight East, reach the Nile and them, um, presumably build a dam or something.

[John Farson]

It was there in OTL - I was surprised as well. Apparently its commander tried to persuade Rommel that, given sufficient fuel (always a touchy subject with Erwin at the best of times) the division could attack straight East, reach the Nile and them, um, presumably build a dam or something.

And with spectacular examples of strategic genius like this, some people still claim with a straight face that the Axis could have won in North Africa.:p:rolleyes:

[Cymraeg]

And with spectacular examples of strategic genius like this, some people still claim with a straight face that the Axis could have won in North Africa.:p:rolleyes:

How about using rocket-powered crocodiles or something? :D

[John Farson]

How about using rocket-powered crocodiles or something? :D

Or raising an army of killer mummies through necromancy?:)

[Gridley]

This thread makes me smile. I wish to thank both Cymraeg for writing it and others for contributing comments.

[naraht]

And with spectacular examples of strategic genius like this, some people still claim with a straight face that the Axis could have won in North Africa.:p:rolleyes:

Two possibilities:

1) Poison. Is it possible that by working their way to the Nile south of the heavily populated areas that they could poison the Nile somehow?

2) Even more bizarre: Redirect the Nile. Is there any way with a significant percentage of the German and Italian explosives that the Nile could be redirected either west into the desert or east with a shortcut to the Red Sea (of the two the into the desert is probably less nuts due to the Egyptian Red Sea Coastal Range.

[Tyg]

It was there in OTL - I was surprised as well. Apparently its commander tried to persuade Rommel that, given sufficient fuel (always a touchy subject with Erwin at the best of times) the division could attack straight East, reach the Nile and them, um, presumably build a dam or something.

I'm speechless.

How the f*** did that commander think he was going to get there, even with 'sufficient fuel'? In what possible state could he have even crossed the Qattara depression alone?

...If this is this one of the commanders kicked up in the hierarchy for lack of alternatives they are in worse trouble than I could have imagined.

[Hyperion]

I'm speechless.

How the f*** did that commander think he was going to get there, even with 'sufficient fuel'? In what possible state could he have even crossed the Qattara depression alone?

...If this is this one of the commanders kicked up in the hierarchy for lack of alternatives they are in worse trouble than I could have imagined.

Most likely explanations I can think of, Rommel, in OTL, knew he wouldn't have enough fuel to support the extra Italian division, not without compromising the Panzers of the Afrika Korps, and made up some BS reason not to bring along the division.

That or the commanding general of the division was either smart enough to see the writting on the wall and wanted to have the best chance of retreating.

That or Rommel knew the game was almost up and wanted something far back in the rear areas to help prepare to cover the retreat west.

[whatisinaname]

Well Hitler is being decisively indecisive over Africa, wonder what Nehring report to Hitler will say, probably nothing good or positive?

[Geordie]

It was there in OTL - I was surprised as well. Apparently its commander tried to persuade Rommel that, given sufficient fuel (always a touchy subject with Erwin at the best of times) the division could attack straight East, reach the Nile and them, um, presumably build a dam or something.
How about using rocket-powered crocodiles or something? :D
Or raising an army of killer mummies through necromancy?:)

You guys are making me scare my housemates/workmates. They don't like it when I start guffawing at my laptop. :D

[Astrodragon]

Rocket-propelled crocodiles are good.

Not as iconic as sharks with lasers, but still good.....:D:D

[Alex1guy]

Somewhere in alternate universe, somebody is writing a "What if Hitler was in charge of Nazi Germany" timeline on an alternate ALTERNATE History Website. In this timeline Hitler is making the decisions of OTL's Hitler made and the thread is being flamed for being total ASB.

[titulus regius]

Somewhere in alternate universe, somebody is writing a "What if Hitler was in charge of Nazi Germany" timeline on an alternate ALTERNATE History Website. In this timeline Hitler is making the decisions of OTL's Hitler made and the thread is being flamed for being total ASB.
I totally agree with the premise behind this post.

As F & G sang, "Nothing's impossible I have found."

[Cymraeg]

1300 Hours, 6th October, 1942, Tobruk
It was a very bittersweet feeling to look out over the harbour of Tobruk, thought Walter Nehring wryly. He remembered the triumph that he’d felt earlier on that year when he and Rommel had finally taken the town. And now he was watching as the port was hurriedly evacuated, with the dock facilities that had been repaired now being readied for demolition.

He sighed and then walked back to his desk and the waiting map, which he studied with as much detachment as he could summon up. It didn’t look good. The advance elements of the Giovanni Fascisti were entering the port now, having driven up under heavy air attack from Siwa. He had also been given the Pistoia Division, which someone in Rome had finally remembered was in Libya.

He now had a choice. He could try to fall back to a more defensible position to the rear, like El Agheila, or he could dig in and try to defend Tobruk the way that the British had done earlier. The problem was that the British had had both a field army and a garrison at the time. He had two divisions, one of which was battered and the other of which was a badly equipped motorised division. Oh and there was 6th Panzer, which was finally properly on its way to Tripoli after an uncharacteristic bout of uncertainty on the part of Hitler. Despite some savage attacks by British submarine and air units the majority of the division was being shipped safely south, although it had already taken some notable losses, including one ship with 20 precious 88mm guns.

To make matters worse politics was starting to raise its head. Rome had screamed blue murder at the loss of all the gains in Egypt, and now that the British were over the Libyan border and had taken Bardia. Mussolini was not pleased, not that Nehring cared that much about what that posturing cretin thought.

Mussolini wanted Tobruk defended, probably to the last round, last man, etc, etc. Well, Nehring had no intention of obliging him. Even if Tobruk could be defended – and most of its protecting minefields had long since gone – there was nothing to be used to relieve it any time soon. At least Hitler hadn’t sent any stand-or-die orders like the one that Guderian had received during the battle. He was however sure that something would emerge from the Fuhrer’s headquarters soon.

An explosion rippled outwards from the far side of the harbour and he looked back out of the window. Time to go.

[Paulo the Limey]

It lives, hurrah! Good to see this timeline continue.

[Cymraeg]

I spent a chunk of the last fortnight preparing to cover and then attending a conference in Baden-Baden, so I have returned replete with excellent food and even better lager.

[trekchu]

If the potato-heads can do anything it's food. :D

[whatisinaname]

It lives, hurrah! Good to see this timeline continue.

Seconded :)

[Geordie]

Seconded :)
Thirded. :)

[Julius Vogel]

4th'd?

I also was out and about this last couple of weeks in Italy and while in Milan I had cause to use the central rail station, where I noticed decorations on the exterior that seem to relate to the Trento and Trieste divisions, which made me think of this thread!

[Cymraeg]

0900 Hours, 7th October, 1942, HQ PanzerArmee Afrika, 50 miles West of Tobruk
Nehring stared down at the signal in total and utter horror. “He ordered what?”

The Italian liaison officer was pale and shaking as he stood in front of him. “The Duce disagreed with the decision to abandon Tobruk. He said that it was defeatist and that for reasons of political and strategic necessity the port has to be held. So he ordered that the 136 Infantry Division Giovani Fascisti should stay and defend it. General Nebba felt that he had no choice but to obey that order.”

Nehring transferred his incredulous gaze to the officer, Caizzo, who flinched more than a bit. There were times like that Kesselring’s presence was sorely missed, because he would have been able to persuade Mussolini that such a decision should be made by the senior officer on the spot – like Nehring. “Doesn’t the Duce know that the port is indefensible and that the docks have effectively been destroyed? Tobruk can’t be held!”

Caizzo opened his mouth for a moment, closed it again and then nodded jerkily. “I agree sir. But it was a direct order from the Duce.”

It took a herculean effort of will, but Nehring resisted the temptation to crumple up the paper and throw it at the luckless Italian. Instead he paced over to the command half-track that he was using and glared at the map. On it he could see that there was indeed a pin with an Italian flag sitting on the blob on the map that represented Tobruk. A staff officer was looking at it with a baffled expression on his face but once look at Nehring’s thunderous scowl obviously made him decide that now would not be a good time to ask a bloody silly question.

There was also a series of pins with British flags very close to Tobruk and Nehring stifled a groan of horror at the message the map told. If the 136th had obeyed orders then it would have long since left the doomed port. Instead a moronic decision by the Italian dictator had doomed it – unless there was still time. If the British only had light reconnaissance forces in the area… there might just be a chance to save the silly bastards.

“Send a message to Nebba at once. He is to break out and head West as soon as possible. And then send a message to the Führerhauptquartier to tell them of the latest developments and to ask if a replacement has been found yet for Feldmarschall Kesselring.” We need someone to bring sanity to the higher command, he thought savagely.

[Deckhand]

It is back, very cool.

[Cymraeg]

1005 Hours, 7th October 1942, Main Hospital Alexandria
There was a noise somewhere. It was light and twittering and for the life of him he couldn’t work out what on earth it was. For one thing his head seemed to be stuffed with cotton wool and his ears felt fuzzy. He also felt as weak as a new-born kitten. He lay there for a moment and tried to marshal his thoughts, but they kept slipping away from him like a bar of soap in the bath.

After a while – he presumed later that he must have fallen asleep again – he identified the noise. It was a bird – no, birds. They were cooing to each other or something like that. Wait. He hadn’t heard birds like that since Italy. He was in North Africa now – wasn’t he?

Slowly he opened his eyes. Everything seemed very blurry and he fought to focus. Hmm. There was a circular thing above that seemed to be moving quite quickly. He concentrated on it. Oh. It was a ceiling fan. How odd.

“Herr General?” It was a rather young and uncertain voice and he looked over to see that a very pale Lehring was sitting on a chair next to him. He seemed to be extremely relieved.

Heinz Guderian opened his mouth to ask where the hell they were but the only sound to emerge was a thin and very weak-sounding croak. At the sound of that croak a nurse in a white uniform suddenly appeared. She smiled at him, reached down to lift his head slightly and then put a glass of water to his lips. He frowned and sipped gently - and then drank as greedily as he could as it seemed to be the best and coldest water he’d ever had. When he’d finished she gently put his head back on the pillow and vanished from sight. He frowned again – there had been something unfamiliar about the uniform, but he couldn’t put his finger on it.

“Where… are we? Tripoli?” he asked eventually.

“No sir,” said Lehring wryly. “You had a heart attack sir. And… things did not go well for the army after you collapsed.”

Guderian stared at the young officer, his thoughts chaotic. “Lehring,” he said eventually. “Where… are we?”

“Alexandria sir,” the young staff officer said quietly. “You’ve already had one major operation here. The British doctors saved your life. They’re talking about another operation though, one that can only be carried out in London.”

He turned his gaze from Lehring and then slowly looked out of the window to his right. Outside he could see palm trees, and birds and a very blue sky. He was in Alexandria. Oh, what irony.

[Geordie]

Nice to see you this TL getting an update, Cymraeg. :)

[Alex1guy]

Fantastic!

[Rayearth]

“I want a full report from Nehring,” the Fuhrer snapped as he stood over the map. “I want to know what we can ship to Libya at once and defend it. If need be we’ll fly the men in. I want Tripoli held.”

“The Duce disagreed with the decision to abandon Tobruk. He said that it was defeatist and that for reasons of political and strategic necessity the port has to be held. So he ordered that the 136 Infantry Division Giovani Fascisti should stay and defend it. General Nebba felt that he had no choice but to obey that order.”

I am in horror and in shock because, perhaps for just a moment, someone has worse strategic sense than Hitler.

Even if it's only a little, little worse.

EDIT: I probably just jinxed it, didn't I? The Fuhrer's totally going to go all, "You know, Mussolini's right. We can definitely hold Tobruk too", isn't he?

[marcus_aurelius]

I am in horror and in shock because, perhaps for just a moment, someone has worse strategic sense than Hitler.

Even if it's only a little, little worse.

EDIT: I probably just jinxed it, didn't I? The Fuhrer's totally going to go all, "You know, Mussolini's right. We can definitely hold Tobruk too", isn't he?

Which is good, because it made the Brits' job easier. :D

Marc A

[Julius Vogel]

1005 Hours, 7th October 1942, Main Hospital Alexandria
There was a noise somewhere. It was light and twittering and for the life of him he couldn’t work out what on earth it was. For one thing his head seemed to be stuffed with cotton wool and his ears felt fuzzy. He also felt as weak as a new-born kitten. He lay there for a moment and tried to marshal his thoughts, but they kept slipping away from him like a bar of soap in the bath.

After a while – he presumed later that he must have fallen asleep again – he identified the noise. It was a bird – no, birds. They were cooing to each other or something like that. Wait. He hadn’t heard birds like that since Italy. He was in North Africa now – wasn’t he?

Slowly he opened his eyes. Everything seemed very blurry and he fought to focus. Hmm. There was a circular thing above that seemed to be moving quite quickly. He concentrated on it. Oh. It was a ceiling fan. How odd.

“Herr General?” It was a rather young and uncertain voice and he looked over to see that a very pale Lehring was sitting on a chair next to him. He seemed to be extremely relieved.

Heinz Guderian opened his mouth to ask where the hell they were but the only sound to emerge was a thin and very weak-sounding croak. At the sound of that croak a nurse in a white uniform suddenly appeared. She smiled at him, reached down to lift his head slightly and then put a glass of water to his lips. He frowned and sipped gently - and then drank as greedily as he could as it seemed to be the best and coldest water he’d ever had. When he’d finished she gently put his head back on the pillow and vanished from sight. He frowned again – there had been something unfamiliar about the uniform, but he couldn’t put his finger on it.

“Where… are we? Tripoli?” he asked eventually.

“No sir,” said Lehring wryly. “You had a heart attack sir. And… things did not go well for the army after you collapsed.”

Guderian stared at the young officer, his thoughts chaotic. “Lehring,” he said eventually. “Where… are we?”

“Alexandria sir,” the young staff officer said quietly. “You’ve already had one major operation here. The British doctors saved your life. They’re talking about another operation though, one that can only be carried out in London.”

He turned his gaze from Lehring and then slowly looked out of the window to his right. Outside he could see palm trees, and birds and a very blue sky. He was in Alexandria. Oh, what irony.


Would it be low class for the Allied media to start making mocking headlines?

[whatisinaname]

Excellent, looking forward to future parts :)

[whatisinaname]

The next question would be who would replace Guderian/Kesselring?

My thoughts are as follows...

Erwin von Witzleben - unlikley?

Alexander Löhr - possible?

Wilhelm List - possible?

I exclude all Eastern Front commanders, that does not leave much left...

[Cymraeg]

0900 Hours, 9th October, 1942, Tobruk
Horrocks looked at the hollow-eyed Italian officer carefully. He was pale even without the covering of sand and dust and Horrocks supposed that he had good reason to be – the port of Tobruk had fallen into British hands with a startling suddenness after the Italian division defending it had collapsed.

He had to admit that he’d been a bit surprised to be placed in charge of the capture of the port, but XIII Corps had acquitted itself well during Second Alamein and he’d been well-placed in the aftermath to reorganise his forces and then drive West, followed by X Corps.

Approaching Tobruk he’d been aware that a large force of Italian motorised infantry had withdrawn into it, much to his surprise. The defences of the port had been disassembled after Rommel had taken it, so the Italian defenders hadn’t had a lot to work with and had next to no time to work with it.

The result had been a very one-sided battle. The bombers had gone in, followed by a thunderous artillery barrage and then the tanks and infantry had left their starting lines. According to the shaking Italian officer who had come out under a flag of truce, General Ebba, the commanding officer, had been killed along with most of his command staff early in the battle and with them had gone a lot of the fighting spirit of the Italians.

Horrocks saluted the Italian officer who had just surrendered what remained of the garrison of Tobruk and then turned on his heel and walked off. Already he could see the first parties of Royal Naval engineers driving down to the harbour to assess the damage to the facilities and the anchorage.

“Send a message to O/C 8th Army, telling him that we have Tobruk,” he told his ADC, before turning to look Westwards. “It makes no sense,” he muttered.

“Sir?”

He looked back to his ADC. “They shouldn’t have wasted so many men here,” he said musingly. “Defending Tobruk just because we made it a symbol of defiance a year ago is… well, stupid. It smacks of politics. And stubbornness.”

“Their loss is our gain, sir!” His ADC said cheerily and Horrocks smiled.

“Right,” he said. “On to Benghazi!”

[Cymraeg]

1500 Hours, 11th October, Department of Defence, Washington DC.
Henry Kent Hewitt had been in the US Navy for 36 years but he had never known a plan so rushed (full of ifs, but and maybes not to mention leaps of faith) as Torch. It had come together over the past two and a half months, after the President had finally decided that the plan to invade France straight away was just a tad premature, and he had been placed in charge of the naval aspects of it.

He had been so busy recently that he’d had to take his belt in a notch, which would probably please his wife. Hampton Roads was jammed with shipping, as were a number of ports in the UK, whilst thousands of men were assembling and being jammed onto those ships, along with tanks, artillery tubes, trucks, jeeps, armoured cars, mortars, ammunition in a dizzying range of calibres, tents, pup-tents, massive tents, rifles, grenades, bazookas, knifes, rations, coffee, nylons and canned fucking everything. The worst thing was that he wasn’t sure that his staff knew exactly where everything was being stored.

The plan was vast and extensive already, because the landings would also be vast and extensive – from Safi in French Morocco, south of Casablanca, to Algiers, almost a thousand miles to the East.

And now he’d been dealt another curveball. The British wanted to extend the landing zones further East, to Bougie. He knew why, he couldn’t blame them. The closer to Tunis they landed, the better. There had even been talk of going even further East, to Phillippeville, but that was too far.

Hewitt stared down at the map. Well, damn. Perhaps Bougie was possible.

[BlairWitch749]

1500 Hours, 11th October, Department of Defence, Washington DC.
Henry Kent Hewitt had been in the US Navy for 36 years but he had never known a plan so rushed (full of ifs, but and maybes not to mention leaps of faith) as Torch. It had come together over the past two and a half months, after the President had finally decided that the plan to invade France straight away was just a tad premature, and he had been placed in charge of the naval aspects of it.

He had been so busy recently that he’d had to take his belt in a notch, which would probably please his wife. Hampton Roads was jammed with shipping, as were a number of ports in the UK, whilst thousands of men were assembling and being jammed onto those ships, along with tanks, artillery tubes, trucks, jeeps, armoured cars, mortars, ammunition in a dizzying range of calibres, tents, pup-tents, massive tents, rifles, grenades, bazookas, knifes, rations, coffee, nylons and canned fucking everything. The worst thing was that he wasn’t sure that his staff knew exactly where everything was being stored.

The plan was vast and extensive already, because the landings would also be vast and extensive – from Safi in French Morocco, south of Casablanca, to Algiers, almost a thousand miles to the East.

And now he’d been dealt another curveball. The British wanted to extend the landing zones further East, to Bougie. He knew why, he couldn’t blame them. The closer to Tunis they landed, the better. There had even been talk of going even further East, to Phillippeville, but that was too far.

Hewitt stared down at the map. Well, damn. Perhaps Bougie was possible.


so they are still going to go ahead with torch?

interesting; with the dak effectively destroyed I'm surprised the americans or even winnie himself would still be onboard with it; the entire purpose of opening up a back door to the dak's vital's is now completely unnecessary as the 8th army outnumbers the shattered remains by more than 10 to 1 at this point; there would at minimum be some sort of serious conference where the plan would run a substantial chance of being axed in favor of a different option (sledgehammer? norway etc?)

with harrocks current rate of progress; 6th panzer should be recalled then stationed in italy to form a backbone for defense (well suited to raus's talents as he had served in the tyrolese kaiserjaeger corps in the previous war)

either way hitler isn't going to throw anything else there which has huge butterflies for winter storm

[Julius Vogel]

I guess Torch has usefulness for training and co-ordination purposes. Was this an important OTL consideration at the time?

[Astrodragon]

Political reasons will keep Torch going.
The USA would probably like to get its troops bloodied, and stop the British getting all the glory of clearing NA.

Also the expectation that it will bring French NA into the lalied camp once they see the boots on their ground.

Besides, have you ever tried to stop a planned military operation once its got to that stage?? :) :)

[Cymraeg]

Torch was largely driven by Roosevelt, once he realised that there was no way on Earth that Brooke was going to go ahead with Sledgehammer, which would have relied on mostly British soldiers and British ships - and probably would have been a total disaster. There's a very good description of what he was thinking in the begiining chapter of An Army At Dawn by Rick Atkinson.

[PMN1]

With Montgomery not getting a look in here, who is likley to take his OTL Normandy role?

[BlairWitch749]

Political reasons will keep Torch going.
The USA would probably like to get its troops bloodied, and stop the British getting all the glory of clearing NA.

Also the expectation that it will bring French NA into the lalied camp once they see the boots on their ground.

Besides, have you ever tried to stop a planned military operation once its got to that stage?? :) :)

it's happened before; the axis themselves did it for hercules in terms of slamming the brakes on a plan that was moments from go

marshal was against torch and though fdr was in favor i have a hard time seeing him not reconsidering the operation given that there won't be any enemy to encounter by the time his troops get there; the thought of it being a waste of time has to creep into his mind; or marshal will just out and out say it to him

[Astrodragon]

it's happened before; the axis themselves did it for hercules in terms of slamming the brakes on a plan that was moments from go

marshal was against torch and though fdr was in favor i have a hard time seeing him not reconsidering the operation given that there won't be any enemy to encounter by the time his troops get there; the thought of it being a waste of time has to creep into his mind; or marshal will just out and out say it to him

We know that, but do they?
After all, the Germans in NA have recovered before from what at first seemed like a defeat, best to play safe. In any case, if you are going for Sicily/Italy next, you need the troops in NA.
You arent going to save much by cancelling, it isnt a matter of cancelling a few trains, all the shipping is in the ports required by Torch, they'd have to be reallocated and dispersed.

What I could see is a two-stage Torch, an initial smaller landing sooner followed up by the rest of the troops. They still want to impress on the French that fat, cheese-eating 'neutrality' in NA is no longer an option....:)

[BlairWitch749]

We know that, but do they?
After all, the Germans in NA have recovered before from what at first seemed like a defeat, best to play safe. In any case, if you are going for Sicily/Italy next, you need the troops in NA.
You arent going to save much by cancelling, it isnt a matter of cancelling a few trains, all the shipping is in the ports required by Torch, they'd have to be reallocated and dispersed.

What I could see is a two-stage Torch, an initial smaller landing sooner followed up by the rest of the troops. They still want to impress on the French that fat, cheese-eating 'neutrality' in NA is no longer an option....:)


Well via ultra they will know Nehring/Raus approximate reinforcement schedule

The rebound offensive from operation crusader is simply not possible in this scenario and the allies would be able to know that. Rommel won significant elements of crusader and heavily disorganized the 8th army before stupid moves on his part put his supply lines into shit and he had to withdraw; and the heavily bloodied 8th army could do little more than limp along following him where he then turned about with his still somewhat in tact forces (reinforced by a big single cargo run that give him 70ish armored vehicles and 50 at guns) and punched them in the mouth........ here the striking elements of the DAK have actually been destroyed; divisional staff and workshops taken in literally removing the DAK's ability to revive itself (something the 8th army had never done before to this point); it would be totally unrealistic for them not to reconsider the necessity of operation torch following a massively more successful 8th army's rapid destruction of the DAK

operation huskey was decided on after torch in otl over bitter objections on the american side; someone is going to have to convince marshal and fdr to invade sicily in the first place, and now they will have an additional barrier because he would want to try and redirect the torch forces somewhere else; so not only does he have to be "re" convinced on torch's now lessor merits, but he has to be talked into sicily within the same window... a very tall order

marshal will press hard to either send the troops to england for sledgehammer or jupiter; and I can't say I blame him, there is nothing for them to accomplish in north africa since the 8th army will eliminate axis presence in africa within a couple weeks at most

overawing the french was a churchill idea; marshal and fdr more rationalized it as backdoor the dak and get us troops some front line combat experience; and both of those items are no longer feasible objectives for the operation to achieve

[Hyperion]

Even if they don't have a major campaign ahead of them, Torch would probably still go ahead as planned, give or take a few days.

The US is in no real position to do anything else substantial right now, clearing French North Africa guarantees the Vichy aren't going to bite the US and British in the ass down the road, and it opens up the Meditteranean to allied shipping.

That and North Africa makes a perfect staging ground for attacking Sicily, which the allies will likely target next, irregardless of whether or not they land on the Italian mainland or not.

That and it would allow US troops a good place to acclimate to the weather in the Meditteranean region.

That and, use common sense Blairwitch, if you have any. Stopping Torch and planning an invasion of Norway or some other locale would need a new plan drawn up from scratch, and would realistically take months or more to plan out.

That and again, use common sense. The British have just practically won the North African campaign by themselves. While the US will ultimately be the dominant military power among the western allies, in 1942 the British where even in OTL the ones initially calling the shots. Here, this victory gives Churchill additional political brownie points with which to dictate policy, at least in the short term.

More than likely, this could well speed Operation Husky up by a couple of months.

[Urban fox]

We might have Paulus try to seize the opportunity and make the request earlier. If he and HG/whoever cite Egypt as an example the Austrian might listen and one my uncles might live.

People seem to spend endless time straining themselves to make the Germans do better, particularly at Soviet expense (as if OTL wasnt bad enougth for the Soviet population & Red Army:() that it clearly borders on racism/Russophobia. The fact is with North Africa going down the pan the effect on the Ost-Front is far more likely to be negative from the German POV.

Paulsus was a very weak man. He hardly worked up the nerve to ask for withdrawal OTL, plus anyone with worthwhile knowledge on Stalingrad would know that Germans formations exposed & in the open. I.E not holed up in highly defensible urban ruins, will be far far easier for the Red Army to chop-up with. So withdrawal far from saving the 6th Army, would simply mean the Soviet troops no longer tied down at Stalingrad would be available for use elsewhere. So in fact the attempt to ‘’save’’ 6th Army may doom the whole army group. Which very nearly got cut-off OTL. When Hitler gave the excuse that 6th Army’s sacrifice was vital to prevent a greater catastrophe. He had a valid point.

Also since the subject has been brought up, an Allied landing in France in 1943 will also speed up the war. As the Germans may be able to contain the Allies in Normandy, they will not however be able to drive them back into the sea. The additional forces needed in the west along with all the associated commitment of replacements, vehicles, ammo, fuel, spare parts etc. Along with the inevitable attrition they’ll suffer will force the Germans to drastically draw off manpower etc, that was desperately needed on the Ost-Front at a far earlier date than OTL. Again making things far easier for the Red Army.

So the Grand Alliance joins hands in Berlin or the Rhine by early 1944 I say.

[Marta Sáenz de Aguilera]

I guess Anne Frank survives in this TL.

[Astrodragon]

Germany will be somewhat stronger in Russia that winter as Tunisgrad wont happen. Not strong enough to make any significant difference, I think - everything will still fall apart in 1943-4, but a few battles may go a bit better. Or the German army might overextend itself and actually do worse.

Either way, I cant see it making a huge difference. Re Stalingrad, losing NA is likely to make Hitler even MORE determined, if anything, to hold it...(see what good Nazi soldiers can do without being held back by those Italians....:) :)

[Urban fox]

Aside from the fact that the whole Africa Korps, two highly-rated commanders their staffs along with pretty much every worthwhile unit in the whole Italian Army not fighting the Soviets is already gone. Added to the fact that Hitler does indeed seem intent on sending yet more forces into North Africa.
Germany ITTL has just suffered a massive moral shock, the Anglo-American forces will mop up North Africa far sooner than OTL and from there can invade Italy with bolstered confidence or plan a landing in France. Whatever German troops aren’t lost ITTL’s version of ''Tunisgrad''. Will quickly be chopped up fighting a much more confident & powerful Allied landing in Italy (which could switch sides in a far more whole-hearted manner than OTL ) or need to be deployed in Italy/France to counter expected Allied landings there.
Nothing would realistically be added to the Eastern Front, in fact quieter sections of the Eastern Front may see their troops transferred westward, to plug the ugly gaping chest-wound the Allies just inflicted on the Wehrmacht.

[BlairWitch749]

Even if they don't have a major campaign ahead of them, Torch would probably still go ahead as planned, give or take a few days.

The US is in no real position to do anything else substantial right now, clearing French North Africa guarantees the Vichy aren't going to bite the US and British in the ass down the road, and it opens up the Meditteranean to allied shipping.

That and North Africa makes a perfect staging ground for attacking Sicily, which the allies will likely target next, irregardless of whether or not they land on the Italian mainland or not.

That and it would allow US troops a good place to acclimate to the weather in the Meditteranean region.

That and, use common sense Blairwitch, if you have any. Stopping Torch and planning an invasion of Norway or some other locale would need a new plan drawn up from scratch, and would realistically take months or more to plan out.

That and again, use common sense. The British have just practically won the North African campaign by themselves. While the US will ultimately be the dominant military power among the western allies, in 1942 the British where even in OTL the ones initially calling the shots. Here, this victory gives Churchill additional political brownie points with which to dictate policy, at least in the short term.

More than likely, this could well speed Operation Husky up by a couple of months.


Bite them in the ass how? was their ever a threat of Vichy forces in Tunisia moving in to Libya to backstop the axis.

Open up to shipping? Gibraltar is open, Vichy is neutral (thus not interfearing with shipping) and the axis will be cleared from Libya within 2-3 weeks at the most giving the allies freeish reign for all their shipping anyway

US troops had done large scale exercises in Louisiana the previous year; so they already had divisions which had experienced medish weather conditions

The troops won't get to do anything; and speeding up Huskey? How does that compute even without resistance; the troops will have to land, build up the ports and airfields, bring in more supplies for staging, work out an invasion plan; and more to the point is invading Sicily in the middle of winter even desirable? You would be talking about having the divisions be inactive more or less till March if not April

Why should common sense be applied; the majority of the allied southern campaign completely lacked in common sense

[BlairWitch749]

People seem to spend endless time straining themselves to make the Germans do better, particularly at Soviet expense (as if OTL wasnt bad enougth for the Soviet population & Red Army:() that it clearly borders on racism/Russophobia. The fact is with North Africa going down the pan the effect on the Ost-Front is far more likely to be negative from the German POV.

Paulsus was a very weak man. He hardly worked up the nerve to ask for withdrawal OTL, plus anyone with worthwhile knowledge on Stalingrad would know that Germans formations exposed & in the open. I.E not holed up in highly defensible urban ruins, will be far far easier for the Red Army to chop-up with. So withdrawal far from saving the 6th Army, would simply mean the Soviet troops no longer tied down at Stalingrad would be available for use elsewhere. So in fact the attempt to ‘’save’’ 6th Army may doom the whole army group. Which very nearly got cut-off OTL. When Hitler gave the excuse that 6th Army’s sacrifice was vital to prevent a greater catastrophe. He had a valid point.

Also since the subject has been brought up, an Allied landing in France in 1943 will also speed up the war. As the Germans may be able to contain the Allies in Normandy, they will not however be able to drive them back into the sea. The additional forces needed in the west along with all the associated commitment of replacements, vehicles, ammo, fuel, spare parts etc. Along with the inevitable attrition they’ll suffer will force the Germans to drastically draw off manpower etc, that was desperately needed on the Ost-Front at a far earlier date than OTL. Again making things far easier for the Red Army.

So the Grand Alliance joins hands in Berlin or the Rhine by early 1944 I say.


Urban Fox,

Paulus was the first sacrificial lamb for a fuhrerbefel; prior to that, nobody disobeyed Hitler and had their career continue (Hoeppner and Guderian being the chief examples to that point); and the fuhrerbefel's to that point had mostly worked out so the officer corps got the message. When Paulus was surrounded and destroyed the officer corps then started being willing to ignore fuhrerbefel's to save their commands (If a general had enough cache they could get away with this, as Manstein and Model did often after Stalingrad) Paulus now has already seen Rommel and his close friend Guderian become sacrificial lambs to a fuhrerbefel; his own mood, let alone the attitudes of his subordinate commanders like Seydlitz and Hube are going to be different than they where in OTL because they have now seen a fuhrerbefel allow a command to be completely destroyed

The 6th army was heavily bloodied when they where surrounded in Uranus however; they where still a potent 22 division force (Including a panzer corps and a flak division) that would have been superior to any force they found in their rear had they responded to Uranaus by immediately breaking out towards Kotelnikovo and eventually Rostov; in conjunction with relieving attacks from the north and south there is no particular reason that at a heavy cost in equipment and leaving a large portion of their wounded that the majority of the army couldn't have pulled back to the don river in ok shape to be rebuilt

[BlairWitch749]

Aside from the fact that the whole Africa Korps, two highly-rated commanders their staffs along with pretty much every worthwhile unit in the whole Italian Army not fighting the Soviets is already gone. Added to the fact that Hitler does indeed seem intent on sending yet more forces into North Africa.
Germany ITTL has just suffered a massive moral shock, the Anglo-American forces will mop up North Africa far sooner than OTL and from there can invade Italy with bolstered confidence or plan a landing in France. Whatever German troops aren’t lost ITTL’s version of ''Tunisgrad''. Will quickly be chopped up fighting a much more confident & powerful Allied landing in Italy (which could switch sides in a far more whole-hearted manner than OTL ) or need to be deployed in Italy/France to counter expected Allied landings there.
Nothing would realistically be added to the Eastern Front, in fact quieter sections of the Eastern Front may see their troops transferred westward, to plug the ugly gaping chest-wound the Allies just inflicted on the Wehrmacht.

Skipping Tunisgrad (assuming 6th panzer is recalled and left in reserve to defend Italy, and that there is no operation Anton) allows the Liebstandarte (1 for 1 replacement for 6th panzer; better equipment, not as good commander) 10th panzer, 2nd parachute and HG panzer to form the core of the winter storm break out forces; this group would be about 100 percent stronger in troop and AFV strength than Manstein's OTL winter storm forces giving them a decentish chance to alter the course of how that battle went

[Urban fox]

Urban Fox,

Paulus was the first sacrificial lamb for a fuhrerbefel; prior to that, nobody disobeyed Hitler and had their career continue (Hoeppner and Guderian being the chief examples to that point); and the fuhrerbefel's to that point had mostly worked out so the officer corps got the message. When Paulus was surrounded and destroyed the officer corps then started being willing to ignore fuhrerbefel's to save their commands (If a general had enough cache they could get away with this, as Manstein and Model did often after Stalingrad) Paulus now has already seen Rommel and his close friend Guderian become sacrificial lambs to a fuhrerbefel; his own mood, let alone the attitudes of his subordinate commanders like Seydlitz and Hube are going to be different than they where in OTL because they have now seen a fuhrerbefel allow a command to be completely destroyed

The 6th army was heavily bloodied when they where surrounded in Uranus however; they where still a potent 22 division force (Including a panzer corps and a flak division) that would have been superior to any force they found in their rear had they responded to Uranaus by immediately breaking out towards Kotelnikovo and eventually Rostov; in conjunction with relieving attacks from the north and south there is no particular reason that at a heavy cost in equipment and leaving a large portion of their wounded that the majority of the army couldn't have pulled back to the don river in ok shape to be rebuilt

No reason aside from say the Red Army.:p

Paulus was not Model or von Manstein, he didnt have their clout with Hitler and he was in a state of near mental break-down before his army was encircled, and his subordinates did follow Hitler's orders slavishly. Also why do you assume the Soviets stand there playing with themselves whilst waving goodbye to the 6th Army & the Germans have eveything their own way simply because they decide to withdraw? Rokossovsky's forces around Stalingrad alone were far stronger than the 6th Army & they wouldnt just sit still surrounding an empty city..

After all faced with a German break-out from Stalingrad STAVKA will react in a very pro-active manner perhaps ordering stronger attacks at the exposed & overextened German flanks. Around say Rostov-on-Don. Cutting off the whole army group.:eek:

[PMN1]

Bite them in the ass how? was their ever a threat of Vichy forces in Tunisia moving in to Libya to backstop the axis.



From what i've read, one of the reasons in the OTL Torch for a landing on the African Atlantic coast and not another one on the African Med coast further east than historical was a US (Roosevelt??) concern about forces being bottled up in the Med.

[BlairWitch749]

From what i've read, one of the reasons in the OTL Torch for a landing on the African Atlantic coast and not another one on the African Med coast further east than historical was a US (Roosevelt??) concern about forces being bottled up in the Med.

That was a concern about Spanish action (ie letting the Germans close Gibraltar) as opposed to French action

[BlairWitch749]

No reason aside from say the Red Army.:p

Paulus was not Model or von Manstein, he didnt have their clout with Hitler and he was in a state of near mental break-down before his army was encircled, and his subordinates did follow Hitler's orders slavishly. Also why do you assume the Soviets stand there playing with themselves whilst waving goodbye to the 6th Army & the Germans have eveything their own way simply because they decide to withdraw? Rokossovsky's forces around Stalingrad alone were far stronger than the 6th Army & they wouldnt just sit still surrounding an empty city..

After all faced with a German break-out from Stalingrad STAVKA will react in a very pro-active manner perhaps ordering stronger attacks at the exposed & overextened German flanks. Around say Rostov-on-Don. Cutting off the whole army group.:eek:

The operation ring forces where strong (double the numerical strength of the 6th army) but in late November whilst still having supplies on hand the 6th army is not some paper tiger to be overridden. And I am not picturing the 6th army breaking out along as the single move; there would be relieving attacks from the north by 11th panzer, 336th infantry and whatever forces Hitler decrees can go to winter storm and coordinated attacks from the south to screen 6th army's flanks by 5th ss panzer, 7th panzer and 16th motorized to allow 6th army a better concentrate on removing forces from their supply lines and creating a strong rear guard

the soviets still recapture a shitload of ground in this scenario, but it's unlikely they corner and bag any significant formations beyond the total destruction of the 3rd and 4th romanian armies that they pull off at the start of uranus

In a scenario where Paulus breaks out immediately, there isn't much the STAVKA can do other than pursue; there are simply too many germans to overun and the front is too big, and their reserves are already committed everywhere

In a scenario where the winter storm forces are stronger, but Paulus stays put; STAVKA can pull 2nd guards out of little saturn (saving 12 Italian infantry divisions) to block Manstein's Aksay assault directly (it's what I would do in Stalin's shoes)

[Cymraeg]

Let's not forget that there were a number of important political considerations that meant that Roosevelt had to go ahead with Torch. He promised Moscow in May 1942 that the USA would open some form of second front against Germany that year. Marshall wanted to go straight ahead and attack in France (Sledgehammer) but was forced to admit that such an attack simply wasn't practical. With Sledgehammer out of the picture, it had to be Torch. In addition both Roosevelt and Churchill still thought that Vichy France could be pulled back into the Allied camp and that the complete occupation of North Africa would reopen the Med completely to Allied shipping, so that Allied troops wouldn't have to go all the way around the Cape of Good Hope. There's an excellent view of the options on offer in the prologue of An Army at Dawn, by Rick Atkinson. ITTL Roosevelt has already committed himself to Torch - he has no other strategic options in Europe.

[BlairWitch749]

Let's not forget that there were a number of important political considerations that meant that Roosevelt had to go ahead with Torch. He promised Moscow in May 1942 that the USA would open some form of second front against Germany that year. Marshall wanted to go straight ahead and attack in France (Sledgehammer) but was forced to admit that such an attack simply wasn't practical. With Sledgehammer out of the picture, it had to be Torch. In addition both Roosevelt and Churchill still thought that Vichy France could be pulled back into the Allied camp and that the complete occupation of North Africa would reopen the Med completely to Allied shipping, so that Allied troops wouldn't have to go all the way around the Cape of Good Hope. There's an excellent view of the options on offer in the prologue of An Army at Dawn, by Rick Atkinson. ITTL Roosevelt has already committed himself to Torch - he has no other strategic options in Europe.


Would Stalin now consider Torch a 2nd front? There is no possibility of Tunisgrad as things have unraveled too quickly for the Germans for that too happen? Marshal at minimum would demand the op be reconsidered; he would bring up super valid points (in the context of his desire to invade France) such as C-47's landed in Africa won't have the range to fly back to England to participate in sledgehammer/round up/overlord which means either long delays or forced participation in a med campaign which nobody has agreed to yet and he certainly doesn't want

I could see Marshal proposing to send all the torch forces to the UK with the idea of launching sledgehammer/round up/overlord at the first favorable tide in the spring (aprilish) Stalin might be appeased if Marshal points out that the Torch forces won't accomplish anything BUT that an invasion of France will occur in the spring to relive pressure on his forces

[Hyperion]

The troops won't get to do anything; and speeding up Huskey? How does that compute even without resistance; the troops will have to land, build up the ports and airfields, bring in more supplies for staging, work out an invasion plan; and more to the point is invading Sicily in the middle of winter even desirable? You would be talking about having the divisions be inactive more or less till March if not April

FACEPALM.

EPIC FAIL.

At this point, an attack on France goes nowhere, and a buildup against Norway would take more resources and a bigger logistics base than what Torch can offer at the moment.

Land in North Africa, clear out the Vichy and start training and equipping French 1st Army, build up the logistics base that existed OTL for Husky, and go in around April or May 1943, still months sooner than OTL, and it would allow green as grass US troops to recieve hands on training with battle tested British troops.

It may not be desireable, but until mid to late 1943, the US doesn't have the forces built up to do much else, and at the moment, the British have a pretty strong hand, from both a military and political standpoint, to dictate allied policy for the next few months.

[BlairWitch749]

FACEPALM.

EPIC FAIL.

At this point, an attack on France goes nowhere, and a buildup against Norway would take more resources and a bigger logistics base than what Torch can offer at the moment.

Land in North Africa, clear out the Vichy and start training and equipping French 1st Army, build up the logistics base that existed OTL for Husky, and go in around April or May 1943, still months sooner than OTL, and it would allow green as grass US troops to recieve hands on training with battle tested British troops.

It may not be desireable, but until mid to late 1943, the US doesn't have the forces built up to do much else, and at the moment, the British have a pretty strong hand, from both a military and political standpoint, to dictate allied policy for the next few months.

no attack goes anywhere till the spring that's the thing

part of the rationale behind Huskey was that significant troops where already in africa and that it would take too long to route them and their equipment to invade france in 1943

in this scenario marshal has a chance to lobby to shitcan torch and get those 3 corps and their logistical train into the UK to start preparing for sledehammer/ round up/overlord 43

the troops can sit in africa and do nothing or the uk and do nothing (other than train and build up) Marshal would prefer they do it in the uk so that the next step is france in early 1943

huskey was a largely stupid operation anyway as it attacked into a bottle neck, took considerable losses and didn't bag any significant German forces

Marshal was correct in pointing out that if the western allies where going to defeat Germany, that it had to be done in France

[Cymraeg]

no attack goes anywhere till the spring that's the thing

part of the rationale behind Huskey was that significant troops where already in africa and that it would take too long to route them and their equipment to invade france in 1943

in this scenario marshal has a chance to lobby to shitcan torch and get those 3 corps and their logistical train into the UK to start preparing for sledehammer/ round up/overlord 43

the troops can sit in africa and do nothing or the uk and do nothing (other than train and build up) Marshal would prefer they do it in the uk so that the next step is france in early 1943

huskey was a largely stupid operation anyway as it attacked into a bottle neck, took considerable losses and didn't bag any significant German forces

Marshal was correct in pointing out that if the western allies where going to defeat Germany, that it had to be done in France

Yes, but those troops will have next to no battle experience, plus Lloyd Fredendall will still be in charge of least a Corps. There's also almost no chance that Hitler will abandon Tripoli - and 6th Panzer is now there.

[BlairWitch749]

Yes, but those troops will have next to no battle experience, plus Lloyd Fredendall will still be in charge of least a Corps. There's also almost no chance that Hitler will abandon Tripoli - and 6th Panzer is now there.

they aren't going to get any battle experience anyway; 6 panzer is outnumbered by more than 10 to 1 and is the only functional force left; Monty will be able to encircle and destroy them; there is nowhere left for them to make a stand; plus with the RAF now having the airfields around Tobruk there will be no more supply runs for the DAK period since bombers can now attack Tripoli and Bengahzi under fighter cover; no matter how brilliantly 6th panzer handles themselves, the campaign will be over in 2 weeks at the most

Fredenhall still having a corps is a downside due to the Allies after the luck they have enjoyed thus far

[Hyperion]

In the end, it really doesn't matter what Marshal thinks or does so much as what Churchill and Roosevelt think and do.

At this point, Montgomery and British 8th Army have finally won a decisive victory on land against the Germans, and have a chance to bring the North African campaign to a close before Christmas 1942. In OTL, the Meditteranean campaign was mostly Churchill's idea, and given recent British success, I see this as simply giving him even more political and military pull to dictate an attack on Sicily at the least.

For all that Marshal thinks about hitting the beaches of France in 1942 or early 1943, he doesn't have the political pull to get an operation pushed through and Churchill and Montgomery do have the pull right now to see something done in the Meditteranean.

[PMN1]

Edit...Lost track of what TL I was in.

I hate it when that happens.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

1) Great TL, glad I finally found it.

2) why is Horrocks called Jorrocks a couple of times? Is that some nickname?

more comments to come

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

the germans were able to successfully reinforce 2 months later when the situation was more hopeless and their airpower was more committed to other theaters (stalingrad was hotter)... malta could be suppressed with aggressive bombing 1 more time and tunisian ports could be used a la feb to april 42 to supplement tripoli to immediately bring in 6th panzer
How much supply and/or army units were sent through Tunisia in early '42? Vichy France was "neutral" and I have seen very little to suggest that the Germans were able to base/supply from Vichy ports during that period. A quick google didn't yield me anything. Could you provide a reference, please?

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

2159 Hours, 27th September 1942, Battery B, 220th Artillery Regiment, 164th Infantry Division

Turning on his heel he walked back along his patrol. Perhaps a cigarette would keep him awake? He chewed his lip for a moment. The only problem was that the ones in his last remaining packet were British. ‘V’ cigarettes to be precise. They were like smoking rolled-up camel shit.

British tobacco was awful? ??? compared to German tobacco after years of blockade? ???

I'd have thought that anything at all was better than nothing to an addict....

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Hewitt stared down at the map. Well, damn. Perhaps Bougie was possible.
Nah, the game's not worth the candle:) (bilingual pun alert)

[Cymraeg]

British tobacco was awful? ??? compared to German tobacco after years of blockade? ???

I'd have thought that anything at all was better than nothing to an addict....

You should read what Spike Milligan wrote about 'V's. Not good. And don't forget that the Germans smoked a lot of captured British ciggies in North Africa. There's a great bit in the autobiography of Hans von Luck about how his men once captured a British medical officer and then offered to ransom him back for a load of cigarettes. The British agreed to the price, but the medical officer was outraged by the whole thing. He thought that he was worth twice the number of ciggies.

[naraht]

You should read what Spike Milligan wrote about 'V's. Not good. And don't forget that the Germans smoked a lot of captured British ciggies in North Africa. There's a great bit in the autobiography of Hans von Luck about how his men once captured a British medical officer and then offered to ransom him back for a load of cigarettes. The British agreed to the price, but the medical officer was outraged by the whole thing. He thought that he was worth twice the number of ciggies.

Sort of makes you wonder how many German Cigarettes you could get for an authentic Cuban cigar.

[Cymraeg]

Sort of makes you wonder how many German Cigarettes you could get for an authentic Cuban cigar.

I'm not an expert on this, but I think that the Germans had access to Turkish cigarettes, which tasted different from Virginian tobacco.

[stevep]

Cymraeg

Just found this and read from the beginning. Fascinating. Think the Germans were a bit unlucky after the initial defeat, including not sure why Guderian didn't withdraw from the exposed forward position as soon as he realised there was pretty much bugger all to hold it? Given the state of Axis forces after this Alam Halfa I think they had no chance of holding even with a lot of luck.

As the discussion points out things could go a lot of ways from here. Torch is still likely to go ahead and with the earlier success you might get agreement for landings further east, which would make the mopping up easier. Also opening up the use of the Med as the big problem currently is unopposed Axis control of Sicily and Sardinia. Bases in French N Africa can change that dramatically. It would also isolate the Italian fleet further, having to go to either Genoa or Venice regions or split and allow the hard pressed RN to effectively combine its own forces.

On the down side for the allies, if Hitler hesitates a bit more you could see a much stronger counter-attack to relieve the Stalingrad pocket. [Although this could backfire on the Germans. Hitler was apparently insistent that Manstein's operation was to link up with Stalingrad and hold the position, rather than withdraw!:eek: After the catastrophe in N Africa I can see the German military being somewhat unhappy with that idea however].

As pointed out by other's the quick success in the Med could mean Marshall gets the go ahead for his stupid idea of a 43 invasion of France. I especially hope not as it would be mainly British/empire troops doing the dying in the resulting debacle!:mad:

Anyway, are you planning on taking it further [please:)] or just to the end of the N African campaign?

Steve

[Cymraeg]

Hi Steve.
I agree that the Germans have been pretty unlucky ITTL - but then Rommel was extraordinarily lucky in OTL, so I just figured I'd balance the scales ;).
I'm going to take this as far as possible, as there are a lot of very interesting options opening up.

[BlairWitch749]

How much supply and/or army units were sent through Tunisia in early '42? Vichy France was "neutral" and I have seen very little to suggest that the Germans were able to base/supply from Vichy ports during that period. A quick google didn't yield me anything. Could you provide a reference, please?

Per Dennis Showalter and the OKW war diary; the Africa Corps supply was 56, 52 and 52 thousand tonnes in Feb March and April 1942, their highest totals of the war; typically they where only getting in the low 30's; these where the 3 months where they used Bizerette and Tunis to supplement Libyan ports (it also conincided with a massive bombardment of Malta by LW and RA forces that drove a lot of forces out of the fight for the convoys)

[stevep]

Per Dennis Showalter and the OKW war diary; the Africa Corps supply was 56, 52 and 52 thousand tonnes in Feb March and April 1942, their highest totals of the war; typically they where only getting in the low 30's; these where the 3 months where they used Bizerette and Tunis to supplement Libyan ports (it also conincided with a massive bombardment of Malta by LW and RA forces that drove a lot of forces out of the fight for the convoys)

BlairWitch749

Just to check. You do mean 42 and that Vichy was breaking its neutrality? Rather than 43, although I doubt by late spr 43 they could move anything like that amount with the allies closing in.

Steve

[BlairWitch749]

BlairWitch749

Just to check. You do mean 42 and that Vichy was breaking its neutrality? Rather than 43, although I doubt by late spr 43 they could move anything like that amount with the allies closing in.

Steve

Yes Feb-April 1942, the Vichy allowed the Germans to move men and material through Tunisian ports which aided Rommel's recovery from crusader/build up to the Gazalla offensive

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Per Dennis Showalter and the OKW war diary; the Africa Corps supply was 56, 52 and 52 thousand tonnes in Feb March and April 1942, their highest totals of the war; typically they where only getting in the low 30's; these where the 3 months where they used Bizerette and Tunis to supplement Libyan ports (it also conincided with a massive bombardment of Malta by LW and RA forces that drove a lot of forces out of the fight for the convoys)
Thank you.

Do you have a specific book of his in mind, or did you like get to take a class he taught? And is the OKW Diary available anywhere?

Personally, I'd really like to get a good read on how Vichy bent the neutrality rules, and I've never found a good source.

Thank you again for this one tidbit.

[BlairWitch749]

Thank you.

Do you have a specific book of his in mind, or did you like get to take a class he taught? And is the OKW Diary available anywhere?

Personally, I'd really like to get a good read on how Vichy bent the neutrality rules, and I've never found a good source.

Thank you again for this one tidbit.

His patton and rommel book mentions it; but I got that tidbit from one of his lectures at my alma matter (syracuse university)...(he was a brilliant guest lecturer, it's worth a trip to colorado to go see him)

translations of the OKW war diary into english are a bit tricky to come by; most college libraries can pull them from other facilities (Yale I believe has a set that was annotated by Liddle Hart himself)... the translation packs/periodicals are done in 20 or 30 day packs (as I have seen them; although according to my dad they lose something versus the original German versions that he reviewed when he worked in the historical department in the bundswher)

they are a brilliant read to be had (I never read the whole thing, I went through like 30 packets when I was 19 or 20 years old)... i remember asking my dad about this a while ago; i seem to recall it was done as a sort of maskirova (ie the troops where disguised as french forces for the tunisian garrison) and as some sort of over due fuck you for mers el kabir

[PMN1]

From Van Crefeld's 'Supplying War'



Even without an offensive, however, Rommel’s demand for a second division had already jeopardised his supplies. Together with the Italians, the Axis force now in Libya totalled seven divisions, which when air force and naval force units were added, required 70,000 tons per month. This was more than Tripoli could handle effectively, so that a crisis was bound to develop unless the French agreed to allow 20,000 tons of supplies a month to pass through their port of Bizerta. Although Rommel was usually at loggerheads with his nominal Italian superiors, they were in agreement this time, for Mussolini had long been looking for just such an opportunity to penetrate Tunisia. Hence Rommel’s request was enthusiastically seconded.

Negotiations with Vichy were accordingly initiated. Firstly, the premier, Admiral Darlan, was asked to sell the Germans French lorries stationed in Africa, to which he immediately agreed. Encouraged by this success, Hitler next summoned Darlan for a tete a tete on 11 May, in the course of which he told him that the unloading facilities of Tripoli harbour were ‘being used to capacity’ and asked for permission to use Bizerta. Darlan acceded to the request, and on 27-8 May a German-French Protocol was signed in Paris, granting the Germans rights of transit through Bizerta. It also provided for French ships to be chartered by the Axis, mentioned Toulon as a possible alternative port of embarkation in case Naples became choked. At this point, however, Vichy was alarmed by the British invasion of Syria. For reasons of their own, the Germans also came to regret the agreement, and by the end of summer not a single Axis load had passed through Bizerta.

[BlairWitch749]

From Van Crefeld's 'Supplying War'



Even without an offensive, however, Rommel’s demand for a second division had already jeopardised his supplies. Together with the Italians, the Axis force now in Libya totalled seven divisions, which when air force and naval force units were added, required 70,000 tons per month. This was more than Tripoli could handle effectively, so that a crisis was bound to develop unless the French agreed to allow 20,000 tons of supplies a month to pass through their port of Bizerta. Although Rommel was usually at loggerheads with his nominal Italian superiors, they were in agreement this time, for Mussolini had long been looking for just such an opportunity to penetrate Tunisia. Hence Rommel’s request was enthusiastically seconded.

Negotiations with Vichy were accordingly initiated. Firstly, the premier, Admiral Darlan, was asked to sell the Germans French lorries stationed in Africa, to which he immediately agreed. Encouraged by this success, Hitler next summoned Darlan for a tete a tete on 11 May, in the course of which he told him that the unloading facilities of Tripoli harbour were ‘being used to capacity’ and asked for permission to use Bizerta. Darlan acceded to the request, and on 27-8 May a German-French Protocol was signed in Paris, granting the Germans rights of transit through Bizerta. It also provided for French ships to be chartered by the Axis, mentioned Toulon as a possible alternative port of embarkation in case Naples became choked. At this point, however, Vichy was alarmed by the British invasion of Syria. For reasons of their own, the Germans also came to regret the agreement, and by the end of summer not a single Axis load had passed through Bizerta.


that sounds like a 1941 attempt at the same thing

[Cymraeg]

13.45 Hours, 12th October, 1942, C-in-C South, Mid-air above the Gulf of Sirte
Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen stared out of the window of the Junkers 52 at the sparkling blue sea far beneath him and suppressed a sigh. It had been a very long week. Being told that he was to be Kesselring’s replacement had been something of a shock. Being told of the true situation in Egypt (now lost) and Libya had been an even worse shock.

Von Richthofen shifted in his seat and glared at the sea again. He still wasn’t sure why he’d been given this particular plum of a job. As the commander of Luftflotte 4 he’d been frantically busy as Case Blue thrashed its messy way to Stalingrad and the Caucasus. There had been some indications that the Reds were getting reinforced opposite the German forces and he’d been passing all of this on to Zeitzler, who was hopefully doing something with the information.

And then all of a sudden he’d been told to fly to the Fuhrer’s headquarters where he had been told about his new appointment and then ordered to go to Rome at once. He’d barely had enough time to talk to his replacement, Stumpff. He wasn’t fond of Stumpff, there was something about the man that rubbed him up the wrong way.

He shifted in his seat again irritably. He seemed to be sitting on something, but he had too much to think about to see what the hell it was. Probably a loose seat cover.

Rome had been a shock, or rather seeing Mussolini had been a shock. The Italian Duce had had a hollow-eyed look about him, a look that spoke of depression and shock. The loss of Tobruk had obviously hit him hard, even though holding it had been a fool’s errand – an entire motorised infantry division had been thrown away for political reasons! He suspected that Mussolini had finally realised how stupid it had been to try and hold Tobruk. However, that meant that he was desperate to hold Tripoli, the loss of which would wipe out the last remains of Italy’s holdings in North Africa.

Von Richthofen looked out the window again, this time more gloomily. Hitler had also told him to defend Tripoli, but he was unsure about the practicality of it. 6th Panzer was now fully formed in the city and its panzers were being desertified as quickly as possible. There was also another Italian motorised infantry division plus various dregs all under the command of Nehring, but these were busy retreating down the coast road, having given up Benghazi. He just hoped that they could get down to El Agheila in time to avoid a possible British dash across the bulge of Cyrenaica, like they’d done the previous year. That had led to the Battle of Beda Fomm. The British were already flowing down the coast after Nehring and had retaken the Martuba airbase. From there they could start to fly air cover for convoys to Malta.

To be brutally frank just to stabilise the situation they needed more men. Mussolini had talked about raising a division of Libyans, but von Richthofen knew that was all it was – talk. All that could be created in such a short time would be a rabble of soon-to-be corpses.

He shifted in his seat again and then raised himself up slightly and ran his hand underneath him. Feeling something he pulled it out. Oh. So that was what had happened to his hat. Well, he’d just have to arrive in Tripoli looking a bit crumpled.

[stevep]

Cymraeg

Why do I get the feeling that an even bigger disaster than OTL is developing in Russia for the Germans? Busch sounds like - ah just checked and he was the idiot in charge for Bagration. I can't see the Soviets being strong enough to shatter AGC in the same way in 43, especially since its southern flank isn't anything like at exposed. However putting a sycophant like that in charge of the AG is not going to be good.

Kluge has the fun job. Here's next to nothing. Now win the campaign with it. I think the key thing will be if the allies get past the natural bottleneck of El Agheila. Once they get within tactical air range of Tripoli the game is pretty much up. Given what the Axis have to stop them this now seems very likely.

Steve

[BlairWitch749]

Kluge taking over oberkommando sud is not likely from several angles

politically it doesn't work; given the strengths of forces involved, this would be seen as a demotion and not be viable for Kluge; also Kluge doesn't speak nor does he have any experience with the Italians when there are plenty of German generals who do; the more realistic solution is for Wolfram Von Richtoffen to be pulled out of southern russia and given the command, with Erhard Raus being promoted to generaleutant and taking over ground operations (for the few days they have left)

Busch (like Manstein) is engaged in a prepping for a huge operation around Leningrad at this point; I can't possibly see him being pulled at this point to go take over army group center (especially because army group center was on pins and needles since the august attack against rzhev and was building up defensive positions to take on what would become operation mars)... even if Kluge was pulled, command at that point would go to Rheinhardt, Heinrici or Model all of whom where extremely qualified and distinguished commanders; but like I said, Hitler releasing Kluge at that point for a command that would be seen throughout the officer corps as beneath his current position is super unlikely

I am assuming you are trying to create the backdrop for a more successful operation mars... TBH that op was fucked from the start and even with Busch being in charge, the tactical genius of everyone below him in that situation put's him in a can't lose situation

me thinks a retcon for plausibility is required

[danderson]

There had been some indications that the Reds were getting reinforced opposite him,

Hmmm......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mars

It took place between 25 November and 20 December 1942 in a salient in the vicinity of Moscow.

And you put the guy who got the German's bagged in 44 in charge of AGC huh?

Really looking forward to the next update. Can't wait to see how else the germans are going to swallow their teeth.

Edit: Question for you BlairWitch, why exactly was the operation so doomed? I read that there were weather problems, and that the germans did much better then the reds expected, although I'm not clear on why that is.

[BlairWitch749]

Hmmm......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mars



And you put the guy who got the German's bagged in 44 in charge of AGC huh?

Really looking forward to the next update. Can't wait to see how else the germans are going to swallow their teeth.

Edit: Question for you BlairWitch, why exactly was the operation so doomed? I read that there were weather problems, and that the germans did much better then the reds expected, although I'm not clear on why that is.

because army group center was on the same line for over a year and heavily fortified it, they also had strong mechanized divisions in reserve (6 panzer divisions at near full strength) so instead of breaking through undermanned, underequipped and poorly led romanian divisions in the open north and south of stalingrad, they where attacking head on into prepared, rested and well backed up german divisions

the infantry and officers on hand where highly experienced; all three corps commanders under model for example rose to at least army command and 2 rose to army group command; and their was similar talent at lower levels

the weather was a mixed blessing; it stopped the russians from being able to properly coordinate their artillery; but it also stopped the luftwaffe from obliterting many elements

busch may not have been as talented as kluge, but the man could read a map and give a free hand to model and heinrici (the defensive plans have been well written since august by this point anyway)

[whatisinaname]

Another great part, though this brings up more questions :D

Kluge was a good commander, do not know how he would deal with this problem, though with one Panzer Division and the remains of serveral others, it is difficult to see what he can do without more troops.

Even holding Tripoli with a single division seems impossible, unless Cymraeg is planning on bringing in more troops, from France (10 Panzer and the 501 Heavy Panzer Battlion springs to mind), very quickly?

[Some Bloke]

Well I think at this stage Hitler is just throwing good money after bad, the forces in North Africa barely represent a Corps, Torch I think is likely to go ahead because it cuts off a very tempting escape route for Kluge.

I can see twoscenarios.
1 Siege of Tripoli, very brief considering the number of troops available

2 The race to the Border. The French would probably be emboldened by recent allied successes and switch sides shortly after Torch (the fact that the Axis are still deploying forced to this theatre reinforced the need for it). In the scenario the Axis are finally put out of their misery at the Battle of Medjez .Fhe French, though under equipped, face a weaker enemy IOTL and might long enough for the 8th Army to arrive, leading to some amusing questions as to who accepts the surrender, I can't see Kluge considering formally surrendering to the French, who in this case would be regarded as traitors by Axis command.

[Cymraeg]

Damn you Blairwitch! Curse your impressive knowledge! I originally had Model taking over from Von Kluge but then I changed my mind after much thought. I guess I should have gone with my instincts - I'll retcon in a bit and put Model in. As for von Kluge being appointed CinCSud I agree that it's a bit unlikely, but that Grofaz needs a big name there. I'm also presuming that von Kluge has a big fat check in his pocket to keep him happy as he flies south, just as he did in the late October of OTL.

[BlairWitch749]

Damn you Blairwitch! Curse your impressive knowledge! I originally had Model taking over from Von Kluge but then I changed my mind after much thought. I guess I should have gone with my instincts - I'll retcon in a bit and put Model in. As for von Kluge being appointed CinCSud I agree that it's a bit unlikely, but that Grofaz needs a big name there. I'm also presuming that von Kluge has a big fat check in his pocket to keep him happy as he flies south, just as he did in the late October of OTL.

Model taking over falls into the category of plausible maybe... Rheinhardt is more senior BUT Model has proven himself over and over again (even before mars) as a master of the battlefield; plus his Nazi credentials where regarded as impeccable

I really disagree with you on Kluge

His being sent west (considering high command west had 40 divisions at it's disposal) could be honestly considered at least a lateral move if not a promotion; no honor or face to be lost there (especially replacing the army's golden boy Rommel).... but Oberkommando Sud which now basically has 1 real division (soon to be destroyed) at it's disposal would represent a major step down/blow to honor for Kluge

For Richtoffen it could be plausible; he has worked with the Italians before and would be regarded as a logical person to replace Kesselring, plus there are considerable LW elements in Italy that wouldn't represent a step down in command from his VIII fleigerkorps

[Cymraeg]

I'm going to have to have a major rethink about von Kluge then. I wrote the update slightly on the fly last night, feeling a bit nervous about a job interview I had this morning. I went to bed not entirely happy with it, and now I know why. Right, I have some rewriting to do! One point - who would replace Richthofen?

[BlairWitch749]

I'm going to have to have a major rethink about von Kluge then. I wrote the update slightly on the fly last night, feeling a bit nervous about a job interview I had this morning. I went to bed not entirely happy with it, and now I know why. Right, I have some rewriting to do! One point - who would replace Richthofen?

I had to double check my dates; Richthofen had just been promoted to command Luftflotten IV (one of the more plum commands in the LW at that time)... maybe Stumpff would be transferred in from Luftflotten V to replace him

No worries otherwise

Richtoffen is an interesting person; he had a doctorate in engineering, probably one of the few LW higher ups who could speak to everyone from Speer to Rommel on equal terms

[Cymraeg]

1145 Hours, 17th October, 1942, Tripoli, Libya
There were times when Nehring felt like tearing his hair out. Here he was trying to save what remained of Italian North Africa, but he felt as if he was fighting not just the British but also the constant bombardment of stupidity that was coming from Rome.

Mussolini’s latest idea – if it could be given such a generous title – was to hold at El Agheila and then prepare to counter-attack, although he was a bit fuzzy on what Mussolini thought they would counter-attack with. As ideas went it wasn’t that bad. Rommel had done something similar twice.

Unfortunately Rommel had had an entire damn army to attack with. All that Nehring had at El Agheila at the moment was the Pistoia Division, which wasn’t in the best of shape at the moment, after being harried mercilessly from the air by the British. He also had 6th Panzer, which was finally (at last!) desert-ready and was available for deployment. Unfortunately by the time that the division could get up to El Agheila the position would likely be in British hands – according to the latest reconnaissance reports light British armour was already starting to sniff around Marada, to the South. Once they reached the sea then the Pistoia would be surrounded.

The Pistoia itself wasn’t strong enough to hold the position and block off any outflanking forces to the South. He hated to admit it, as the El Agheila position was a strong one, but he had to face facts. If he had 6th Panzer there already, then it would be different, but he didn’t.

He wished that he had more infantry. Mussolini was sending the Superga Division, which was good. Unfortunately he was sending it as fast as possible from Sicily – in other words mostly by air, which was bad. The division’s heavy weapons were being sent by ship, which was terrible.

He therefore had a choice. He could tell the Pistoia to hold on at El Agheila, whilst telling the 6th Panzer to get there as fast as possible. Or he could tell the Pistoia to fall back to the Buerat position, which was the next defensive stop line, where it would be joined by 6th Panzer. He knew which one Mussolini wanted, but he wouldn’t order the Pistoia to commit suicide in the same way that the troops in Tobruk had. Right, Buerat it was.

At least he knew that von Richthofen agreed with what he had in mind and was even now flying back to Rome to tell Mussolini that the only thing that holding El Agheila would accomplish would be to throw another Italian division away.

[whatisinaname]

Looks like the Germans will try to hold at the Buerat position if Mussolini can be persuaded?

Though how strong is the Buerat position and could it be held?

[BlairWitch749]

Looks like the Germans will try to hold at the Buerat position if Mussolini can be persuaded?

Though how strong is the Buerat position and could it be held?

In otl Buerat was a lost victory for the British; they had a very good chance had Monty not been so methodical to immediately encircle the position before Rommel could extract permission for everyone to haul ass back to the Mareth line... on top of that 21st panzer crushed the first clumsy probes into the position which bought time.

So by the time Monty did shift the tanks south to encircle, Rommel had gained the authority from Mussolini to pull back, so he sent the Italian infantry full speed back to the Mareth line, whilst sending the DAK south to shield the flank (which they did a brilliant job of) and eliminated the opportunity for Monty to end the campaign right then and there

[DuQuense]

?Could this sucess put political pressure on the allies to send more troops/supplies to the pacific theatre?

[Some Bloke]

2 divisions vs an entire Army?

Still, I've learned a lot from this timeline.

I stand by my comments about the campaign being a case of throwing good money after bad,
however. I assumed that this timeline's El Alamein would be QED for the axis in North Africa.

What I didn't consider was the fact that individual psychology affected the course of the war
as much as tactical and strategic reality. To me the obvious course of action after Kesselring's
surrender would have been to get the hell out. However, politically this is not an option.

This force has been built on top of the final dregs of axis manpower in Libya,
so how much will be left after the coming engagement? Will they try the same thing again?

[Cymraeg]

Don't forget that the tyranny of logistics is now working against Montgomery - the further from Alexandria he gets the longer his supply lines become.

[Some Bloke]

Another excellent point.

[Devolved]

6th Panzer was now fully formed in the city and its panzers were being desertified as quickly as possible. .

Desertified. An excellent word. I may steal that for my own thread. Can I use Jungleified for Burma?

[Cymraeg]

Desertified. An excellent word. I may steal that for my own thread. Can I use Jungleified for Burma?

Please do!

[BlairWitch749]

Don't forget that the tyranny of logistics is now working against Montgomery - the further from Alexandria he gets the longer his supply lines become.

Monty can supplement with coastal convoys under fighter cover

[Some Bloke]

Mitigates the situation but doesn't overcome it entirely unless he captures a port relatively intact, even then ...

[Cymraeg]

1800 Hours, 20th October 1942, office of the Italian Foreign Ministry, Rome
Von Richthofen looked through the window at the falling rain and sniffed thoughtfully. So much for sunny Italy. The rain had started three hours ago and showed no sign of stopping any time soon. Well, it could be worse. In Russia it was snowing already and it was far colder. He thought about the men that he’d left in Russia for a long moment and then supressed a sigh.

Hearing a rattle of a doorhandle behind him he turned to see Galeazzo Ciano, Mussolini’s son-in-law and foreign minister of Italy, enter the room. He was dressed in uniform, with his hair slicked back and he smiled as he saw the German officer.

“I’m afraid that you haven’t seen the best of our weather so far,” Ciano said with a wave of his hand at the window. “Spring in Rome is superb. Winter is… more prosaic.”

Von Richthofen smiled dutifully. “I am enjoying my time in Rome nevertheless, although I will be flying back to Tripoli as soon as I can.”

“Ah, now Tripoli is very much an improvement on Rome at this time of year!” Ciano smiled again, before a shadow crossed his face. “Please, have a seat Field Marshall,” he sighed, waving this time at the chairs by the fireplace, where a small fire was crackling. Once they were seated and suitable refreshments supplied Ciano looked at him with a piercing gaze. “How long can we hold Tripoli?”

Von Richthofen stared into the flames for a long moment as he thought hard for a moment. “A month, if we’re very, very lucky.”

Ciano studied his face closely for a moment and then sighed. “That fits in with what I’ve heard as well. The Duce seems to think that Tripoli can be held, that Nehring can hold Montgomery at the Buerat position. I… have heard otherwise. And you have confirmed it.”

“I’m sorry Foreign Minister, but I can’t sugar-coat a pill that’s that bitter. Nehring is a good general, but he’s not Rommel. And he doesn’t have Rommel’s resources. He has two divisions, one of which has already suffered moderate losses from air attacks whilst the other was rebuilt in France this spring after suffering severe losses in Russia. Another division is en route, but it’s being flown in without its heavy equipment and without its heavy weapons, which are being shipped by sea.

“All that Nehring can do at Buerat is to buy time.”

There was a long moment of silence as Ciano stared at von Richthofen. Then he nodded slowly. “There are things,” he said quietly, “That you should be made aware of, Field Marshall. Things that will affect your position – possibly. I am referring to the political situation here in Italy, or more specifically the Duce’s political position.”

The hairs on the back of von Richthofen’s neck stood on end for a moment. “I wasn’t aware that his position was at risk,” he said carefully.

Ciano waved a hand dismissively. “It’s not. Or rather it’s not yet. But when Tripoli falls the waters of discontent will rise a little further. We’re already lost Abyssinia and Italian Somaliland, not to mention Cyrenaica. If Tripolitania falls as well, then Italy’s last remaining pre-war overseas holdings will be the Dodecanese Islands.

“Yes, we hold parts of Jugoslavia and Albania, and parts of Greece, but…” he let his hand drop expressively. “There are many who are asking what we’ve gained from this war. Not a lot it seems.”

“Foreign Minister, these are matters above my position,” von Richthofen said carefully. “Political matters are above my head – I am just a soldier.”

Ciano laughed softly. “My dear Field Marshall, what is war but the conduct of diplomacy by other means? And what helps to drive diplomacy – politics!” His face stilled as a sombre look stole over it. “The Duce’s efforts to secure his position might – will – mean that he orders certain positions to be held that you might think cannot be. Please bear in mind the… pressures that are affecting him.”

Von Richthofen looked at Ciano. He had the distinct feeling that here was a man with his feet in multiple camps. “Thank you,” he said affably. “And now if you’ll excuse me I have to return to my headquarters to review the latest situation in Libya.”

“Of course,” said Ciano as he stood up and started to usher von Richthofen to the door. “Do please keep me informed about any new developments.”

As the Field Marshall left the building, walking swiftly through the rain to his car, he paused and looked around for a moment. For a split second he had the oddest feeling of oppression.

[Astrodragon]

Its only fair that Germany has the Italians as allies this time...:D

[Cymraeg]

1200 Hours, 21st October 1942, Buerat Escarpment
Generalleutnant Erhard Raus, the 6th Panzer Division’s commander, was looking more than a little red about the neck, which was unsurprising for someone who had never been to Libya before, thought Nehring as they both stood on the escarpment and looked East through their binoculars. Below them they could see trenches being cut into the floor of the desert, along with areas for panzers to enter hull-down positions. Behind them the artillery was busily getting into place.

Somewhere behind them Gelich was busy consulting with Falugi about how much equipment the latter could lend the former. He suspected that the answer would not be a satisfactory one for either Italian Commander, but he was now resigned to the fact that they were fighting on a very thin budget.

“Good ground,” Raus grunted, before pulling out a handkerchief and rubbing it over his face. “A good position sir.”

Nehring sighed. “El Agheila was better. But there was no way to hold it with the forces we had then. We need to move as quickly as possible to fortify this position. And even then there are weaknesses. We don’t have enough men to hold the escarpment and the Western bank of the Wadi.”

To their right he could see the line of what had, in times long gone by, once been a river. Now it was just Wadi Zem Zem, which curved along the base of the escarpment from the North-East to South-West. The problem was that the wadi eventually became shallow and less defensible.

Raus had transferred his attention to the wadi as well and was dividing his attention between looking at it through his binoculars and tracing the course of it on his map. “Our right flank is hanging in the air, sir,” he said eventually. “If they hook around it then…”

“Then we’ll be meeting Kesselring and Guderian somewhere in Scotland,” Nehring replied. “It can’t be helped. We hold here. I’ll have the Italians hold the left flank. You have the right flank – I’m giving you the authority to attack any outflanking force if you think that such an attack will be successful or even just advantageous.”

He looked back Eastwards. Clouds of dust were visible on the horizon. A lot of clouds, but they were thickest close to the coast road. “Here comes Tommy.”

[Devolved]

“Here come Tommy.”

Is that a 'The Shining' reference you sneaked in there?

[Cymraeg]

Is that a 'The Shining' reference you sneaked in there?

No, but it could have been! :D

[BlairWitch749]

minor nitpick; Raus would be general leutant whilst nehring would be general der panzertruppen

Richtoffen has been put in an interesting spot since Ciano has brought him into confidence. Richtoffen was a fairly intense Hitler loyalist and a very very smart man, an air equivilent to Model if there ever was one. Kesselring in OTL completely ignored his local intel organization on the instability that Benny was facing as things became more desperate... Richtoffen on the other hand has worked with the Italians before, is and understands the art of being political and more to the point wouldn't sugar coat the situation to Hitler the way Smiling Albert did

Richtoffen won't allow himself to get stonewalled by Goering or the Prince of Hesse and will actually tell Hitler that Benny's situation is unstable and that the eventual collapse of the axis position in africa may lead to a putsch against him

the question then becomes what if anything Hitler is willing to do about it; the German foriegn ministry decryption dept (as brilliant a code breaking outfit as bletchly park) had already cracked the Italian diplomatic code and picked up worrying info in otl; which was ignored due to Kesselrings don't worry be happy attitude... now that Richtoffen will actually be taking these things seriously (and conveying that attitude to Hitler) you may see these events viewed in a whole new lot; Hitler may decide that some reserve formations (once stalingrad sorts itself out one way or another) need to go to "defend Italy" but will secretly eliminate Benny's enemies; at least on the fascist grand council if not imprisoning the king himself very quietly

the possibilities are as endless as they are intesting

still eagerly following

bw

[Some Bloke]

I think this is what Cymraeg was already hinting at, still, it the Nazis act rashly it might make things even more difficult for them

[whatisinaname]

I see the Buerat position as temp holding up the allied advance, as they are dug in, with both divisions withdrawing to the next defensive position at the appropriate moment.

When operation Torch happens in November, then without a lot more troops withdrawal seems likely, after all only a few weeks to go ?

[BlairWitch749]

I see the Buerat position as temp holding up the allied advance, as they are dug in, with both divisions withdrawing to the next defensive position at the appropriate moment.

When operation Torch happens in November, then without a lot more troops withdrawal seems likely, after all only a few weeks to go ?

FWIW IRL the africa corps actually only had a strength of about 1/2 of what 6th panzer has here when it fought at Buerat; BUT Rommel and the divisional staff of 21st panzer's handeling of Buerat was brilliant, and Monty handled the battle as badly as humanly possible; 6th panzer has an extremely sharp crew in charge of it (arguably the best lead division in the army) BUT the men are new to the desert and their morale could certainly be questionable having seen 15th and 21st panzer be destroyed (whereas the DAK vets in otl had seen themselves rebuild and rebound twice before)

[Cymraeg]

23rd October, 1942, 8th Army Tac HQ. Three miles South of Buerat
Horrocks lowered his binoculars and then scowled thoughtfully. The escarpment looked impressive. It totally dominated the coast road that ran to the North of it. A force on that escarpment could see for a long, long, way around it.

His XIII Corps was already in Buerat and beyond it, having carefully scouted out the Axis defences. In many places the latter weren’t much to look at, but in others they were quite strong, which was interesting – obviously some had been put together in a hurry.

Turning he walked back towards Monty’s command caravan, outside which he could see Freddie de Guingand waiting. “Good morning Freddie.”

“Good morning Jorrocks. Up to see the fox?”

“Seems to be digging in quite a bit,” Horrocks replied wryly.

“Indeed. Well, in you go. Oliver Leese left not long ago.”

Horrocks nodded with a wince. Herbert Lumsden had been effectively fired from X Corps and replaced with Leese, more for being unable to get on with Monty than for this performance, which hadn’t been too bad. Monty however must have felt otherwise – and so Horrocks knew that he’d have to make sure that he performed at his best.

Going through the door he discovered Monty standing in front of a large map of the area, along with aerial photographs from the RAF. Seeing Horrocks he beckoned him over. “Ah, Jorrocks, there you are. How are your chaps?”

“Getting ready sir,” Horrocks said. “I’m a bit worried about the ammunition supply for the Corps artillery though.”

Monty shot a keen glance at him. “I don’t blame you,” he said, folding his arms and glaring at the map again. “The supply situation is worrying me. We’re at the end of a very long line of supply at the moment, and even with the engineering chaps performing miracles in Benghazi and Tobruk to get the ports working again, and the navy performing equal miracles at Sirte, we’re on thin rations at the moment. The RAF alone needs 400 tonnes a day, and that’s growing all the time. Thank God the Luftwaffe lost so many of their planes and ground crew as they pulled back, we’d have lost more chaps by now.

“No,” he said, jabbing a finger on Tripoli, “We take Tripoli and its port facilities and we solve our supply problems and give the Bosche their own supply nightmare.”
Monty turned back to Horrocks. “Now, I’ve given Kirkman carte blanche to get as much ammunition for the artillery up at once, so the guns should have enough to bombard the entire enemy position with heavy fire. Once we have enough then we will attack. You will pin the Italians in place along the escarpment. Leese in the meantime will swing around the enemy’s right flank, put a blocking force in place to make sure that 6th Panzer doesn’t interfere and then drive as hard as he can for Bani Walid, and then either Tarhuna or Zliten, whichever he deems the best way to cut Nehring off. The next major position between us and Tripoli is the Tarhuna-Homs line, and I want to make sure that don’t end up stalled in front of it.”

Horrocks looked at the map and then nodded. “Yes sir,” he said crisply.

[whatisinaname]

The battle of Buerat begins :D

[Cymraeg]

Sorry for the delay folks. I blame work and being knackered. :o
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1207 Hours, 25th October 1942, Buerat position

The sound of the guns of an entire Corps firing on a position was the kind of noise that threatened to tear the top of a man’s head clean off, thought Horrocks as he stared through his binoculars at the Italian lines a mile in front of him. The entire position, from the escarpment to the road by the sea, was wreathed in smoke and dust, shot through with the flash of the occasional explosion as something went up from a direct hit. Somewhere under that pall of destruction were men, men who were suffering and sweating – and dying.

He pulled at his right earlobe, a sign that he knew meant that he was stressed. The Italians were well dug-in and had support from their guns on the escarpment. Fortunately they had next to no air support, other than a few squadrons of Luftwaffe fighters that had either made it out of the rout at El Alamein (a lot of fighters had taken off but without their ground crews, meaning that short-term survival had become long-term atrophy) or been shipped in since. As a result the Axis positions on the escarpment were being hammered from the air again and again.

Right, so the Italians were being hammered good and hard. The eyes of the Axis high command had to be here. So had their reserves. He had no intention of attacking into the teeth of those defences, that wasn’t his job. He was the feint, the potential jab that they had to worry about. Leese was the real threat to the Germans and the Italians.

1500 Hours, 26th October 1942, West Flank of 6th Panzer Dision
Raus lowered his binoculars and then repressed the very real need to swear until the air turned blue. The past day and a half had been a nightmare. The initial British attack had, he now knew, been nothing more than a feint. They’d thrown a huge weight of high explosives against the Italian positions, causing enough havoc in their ranks to force them to order more men in to stiffen their ranks. That had been a mistake, because at that point the British had actually widened the width of their barrage and started targeting all of the Axis units as well. Then they’d sent in their damned bombers and fighter-bombers. The line was being whittled down.

He’d recognised what they were doing and had ordered his men to keep a careful eye open to the South-West, as he was sure that Montgomery would try and force the Wadi and then flank him. What with his long-gunned Mark IVs and his 88mm guns he knew that he could maul him long enough to gain some time.

The problem was that the British had seemed to be pinning him in place and then using their reconnaissance forces to spot for their artillery. More losses, more tanks destroyed, more guns smashed. His men had gritted their teeth though and dug down deeper into their trenches, protecting their equipment with more sandbags and revetments.

But now he was looking at the reason why his scalp had been pricking for the past twelve hours, ever since the first whispers had come in about lights in the far darkness at night. British had indeed swept around his right wing. The problem was that they had wheeled far further than he had thought was practicable, or indeed possible, and he cursed the ghosts of the desert that the British had in their LRDG.

So, he had a choice. He could send his forces out of their prepared positions and try to fight a fast and open battle on ground not of his choosing further to the West than he’d planned, which was a 50-50 proposition at best, especially as he’d be leaving an almost open position behind him that the Italians didn’t have the strength to fill. Or he could sit in place and watch his men die. Or alternatively Nehring could pull them back as fast as possible towards Tripoli.

He mulled the options carefully. Asking Nehring for permission would take time, something that he now knew that he was in desperately short supply of. Right. Time to throw the dice.

“Get Nehring on the phone,” he muttered hoarsely to his aide. “Tell him that we have spotted British tanks heading North towards Bani Walid and that I am attacking in an effort to interdict their positions.”

If 6th Panzer had to die, then it was going to die on its feet with its teeth in the enemy’s throat.

[John Farson]

Good to see this back:)

[pike]

I like a good fight. It gets a bit repetitive reading about how badly the Germans are being mauled all the time.:rolleyes:

[Geordie]

Good to see this back:)
I second that sentiment. :cool: