AH Challenge: A Startling Find

[Wendell]

Make a TL where this is the dominant group somewhere in the world in 1492:
http://www.astrosurf.org/lombry/Bio/dinoman-closeup-schallers183.jpg

[MarkA]

85 million years ago a particular species of Theropod dinosaur (perhaps a Coeluridae?) was isolated by tectonic and volcanic activity from its biological relatives and from other, much larger dinosaurs. The only predators it faced were perhaps up to three times as large.

75 million years ago and the particular species of dinosaur became adapted to another changing environment. This forced it to become bipedal and to develop opposable digits on its freed up front limbs.


65 million years ago: The sudden and dramatic changes to earth's environment had wiped out many species and left most others hanging by a thread. An asteroid impact sent all of the dinosaur species (save one) over the precipice of extinction. The one species that survived the climate change and impact was affected by the new hostile environment and devastation caused by the asteroid and it proved to be supremely adaptable.

45 million years ago - The dinosaur survivors began to develop a primitive intelligence. It made tools and dwelt in crude shelters or caves. It developed a tribal society.

25 million years ago - By now the dinosaur was a different animal altogether. It lived in villages and was beginning to develop cities and agriculture. For the next half a million years it dominated the globe and developed a sophisticated world-spanning civilization. Unfortunately, its technology outstripped its ability to deal with its more primitive urgings including almost endemic warfare, albeit most on a fairly limited scale. Towards the end it developed a capacity to invent powerful weapons including biological and nuclear.

The dinosaurids' main centres of civilization were in Africa and Eurasia. They kept small ape like pets that accompanied them everywhere. These creatures were used for experiments as well, particularly in gene manipulation. They bred much faster than the dinosaurids.

The end came quickly as the degraded environment succumed to climate change, some dino-made some natural. A devastating war followed using biological, chemical and nuclear weapons and wiped out the dinos. Or so it would seem. A small group survived in the backwater areas of what would become Australia.

This group survived and evolved slowly, changing little in 25 million years. Only in the last two hundred thousand years have they again developed a settled society and began using metal and building a civilization. They move more slowly than humans and breed much more slowly.

In 1492 they dominated the Australian continent and began to send out exploratory missions to the rest of the world. The rest as they say is history...

[jolo]

I'll try it with the Americas instead.

Your picture looks like a mixture of human and frog. The person also looks like being adapted to living in the jungle, and to a nocturnal live. Therefore, the "center of evolving" I deem the Amazonas area, though they later spread.

As I don't believe in a high likelyness of two species to develop the same awkward humanoid form parallel to each other, there has to be some kind of relation.

Let's say, the first humans enter the area about 30 000 years ago (some new findings appear to indicate that humans even came there 40 000 years ago).

They quickly find out that the poison of a certain frog helps as a contraceptive (nearly all "primitive" tribes have some form of natural contraception). The poisonous parts of the frog are removed, squashed into a creme and applied from within.

Side effect of this wide spread and not perfectly reliable contraceptive is that every once in a while, a frog virus or some other form of malfunction transfers the one or the other frog gene to an egg or sperm cell or a baby.

That leads to more and more frog like features in those humans. Most of those changes are too small to notice, or the mutations are not very successful (if only because of their bearers being treated like mutants).

Once the changes have become obvious, there is even a new beauty ideal, which causes a running evolution in this direction. Eyes get bigger, the skin gets greener, the faces get more frog like, and so on.

Some of the mutations even help the humans: They are more resistant against insect bytes, they can be in water or mud for days without getting skin problems, and so on.

The obvious differences between the different humans in the Americas leads to a separation of the two "races" at about 10.000 before our time. Maybe the species aren't even compatible anymore.

Therefore, by the year 1492, the Amazonas area is dominated by green humans with frog faces. Columbus hears about them, but doesn't believe a thing. A few years later, another explorer gets to the Amazonas and brings a few of them to Spain. As they can talk and think, the church is in a difficult situation: whether to accept those beings as human or not. She decides to consider them non-humans with a soul - i. e. slaves with the same basic rights, but no more, as humans are supposed to rule, according to the bible.

As those jungle dwellers aren't too valuable as slaves, European settlers in the area hunt them and try to force them out of the areas they like to settle.

The rest depends upon more factors - intelligence, agility, adapting new technologies, and so on. If the jungle dwellers are better than the Europeans, they will start winning after some time and conquer all of southern and later northern America. If they are inferior or about equal, they will only survive in small pockets in remote areas. In our time, they would probably be given some protected areas.

[hammo1j]

According to David Icke and conspiracy theorists these Reptilian forms ARE the dominant life forms on Planet Earth NOW.

All you need is a zoom lens and entry to the Bildeburg conference grounds and you can see these evil lizards shape shifting and sacrificing human children.

I secretly interviewed Mel Gibson (in Lizard Form) after falling out of a tree.

Me: So that's how you can get away with making so many crap films lately.

MG: Yeah, Hollywood is pretty much Reptilian controlled.

Me: What, even the fit birds like Rene Zellweger?

MG: Fit? She's a Brontosaurus when she shape shifts.

Me: I thought we humans discovered the New World to get away from you lot.

MG: No, Columbus was one of us. That's him over there actually.

Me: Schwarzenegger?

MG: Yes, we live for a thousand or more of your earth years. We needed more land area to farm you humans.

Me: And the American Revolution?

MG: See Tony Blair over there? We don't call him "T Rex Tony" for nothing. He's played over 50 power crazed politicians in his career. Yes, including George Washington.

Me: And since then the American Presidents...

MG: Have all been Lizards. Oh apart from Kennedy and Lincoln. So unfortunate it had to end that way for them.

Me: So George W is one of you reptiles.

MG: Don't insult us, human! We could never find a lizard that stupid!

I escaped with my videocam as proof of the lizard peoples but unfortunately I had loaded a BetaMax cassette.

[MerryPrankster]

Jolo,

That creature is what a troodon would theoretically become had the dinosaurs not become extinct.

I imagine the POD for this situation would have to be some remnant population of troodon survives whatever killed off the dinosaurs. My bet would be that it would be somewhere in North America, since the troodons lived in what is now Canada.

[jolo]

That creature is what a troodon would theoretically become had the dinosaurs not become extinct.


But I doubt it would look so human. Also, it appears as if Dinosaurs were pretty colorful. Even if the color was shed together with fethers, scales, or the likes, some remnants - for instance on the head - would likely remain.

A more logical continuation might be a form which looks like a mix of T-Rex and Austrich - that is, a more or less horizontal body with legs in the middle and arms and a head in front. But I admit, evolution isn't always logical. But something to think about: How big would our intelligent dino be? I suppose a little bit larger than us.

[Wendell]

But I doubt it would look so human. Also, it appears as if Dinosaurs were pretty colorful. Even if the color was shed together with fethers, scales, or the likes, some remnants - for instance on the head - would likely remain.

A more logical continuation might be a form which looks like a mix of T-Rex and Austrich - that is, a more or less horizontal body with legs in the middle and arms and a head in front. But I admit, evolution isn't always logical. But something to think about: How big would our intelligent dino be? I suppose a little bit larger than us.
Maybe an average height of about 2 meters?

[MerryPrankster]

But I doubt it would look so human. Also, it appears as if Dinosaurs were pretty colorful. Even if the color was shed together with fethers, scales, or the likes, some remnants - for instance on the head - would likely remain.

A more logical continuation might be a form which looks like a mix of T-Rex and Austrich - that is, a more or less horizontal body with legs in the middle and arms and a head in front. But I admit, evolution isn't always logical. But something to think about: How big would our intelligent dino be? I suppose a little bit larger than us.

In one of my stories, I have an alien race that bears the same relation to the velociraptor-analogues of its home planet that we do to the higher primates.

They're bipedal "Lizard-Man" looking creatures. In my original version, they lacked feathers, but in their current incarnation, they've got feathers on the top of their heads (a sort of "riff").

They're slightly bigger than humans, and physically much more powerful (claws, teeth, and a big tail). They're also about the same intelligence-wise, but tend to be more aggressive.

[jolo]

Maybe an average height of about 2 meters?

How about 5-10 meters?

[Wendell]

How about 5-10 meters?
That would make them rather tall then. Not comprable to humans?

[jolo]

In one of my stories, I have an alien race that bears the same relation to the velociraptor-analogues of its home planet that we do to the higher primates.

They're bipedal "Lizard-Man" looking creatures. In my original version, they lacked feathers, but in their current incarnation, they've got feathers on the top of their heads (a sort of "riff").

They're slightly bigger than humans, and physically much more powerful (claws, teeth, and a big tail). They're also about the same intelligence-wise, but tend to be more aggressive.

Good ideas - I'm not sure about technological development and aggressiveness, though. The more agressive a species is, the more they are willing to kill each other. The more intelligent a species is, the more they are able to do that. Both together doesn't mix very well - especially once a uniting enemy is gone.

[jolo]

That would make them rather tall then. Not comprable to humans?

Maybe not, maybe yes - but I doubt they'd look too human, have the same emotions, or the likes. If they were much bigger, their technology would also develop differently and in some phases slower, because of different physical properties - they'd for instance have difficulties dealing with delicate machinerie - imagine them in a factory with machines driven by belts.

[Wendell]

Maybe not, maybe yes - but I doubt they'd look too human, have the same emotions, or the likes. If they were much bigger, their technology would also develop differently and in some phases slower, because of different physical properties - they'd for instance have difficulties dealing with delicate machinerie - imagine them in a factory with machines driven by belts.
Well, they would have no use for razors :p

[Ivan Druzhkov]

I imagine the POD for this situation would have to be some remnant population of troodon survives whatever killed off the dinosaurs. My bet would be that it would be somewhere in North America, since the troodons lived in what is now Canada.
Ooh, it wouldn't be North America. Analysis of the K-T boundary layer has shown that North America got whomped a lot harder than the other continents, due to the fact that the asteroid hit where the Yucatan would've been 65 million years ago, and the dust cloud seems to have settled much thicker in N. America (one theory says that the asteroid hit at an angle, causing the dust plume to be smeared to the NW, over North America).

However, there were some troodontids living in Mongolia (the Paris of the Cretaecous) and maybe one or two in the European archipelago. They don't appear to be any in the Southern Hemisphere. Not that that would've done them any good, what with the island continent of India being one giant volcano at the time.

[Wendell]

Ooh, it wouldn't be North America. Analysis of the K-T boundary layer has shown that North America got whomped a lot harder than the other continents, due to the fact that the asteroid hit where the Yucatan would've been 65 million years ago, and the dust cloud seems to have settled much thicker in N. America (one theory says that the asteroid hit at an angle, causing the dust plume to be smeared to the NW, over North America).

However, there were some troodontids living in Mongolia (the Paris of the Cretaecous) and maybe one or two in the European archipelago. They don't appear to be any in the Southern Hemisphere. Not that that would've done them any good, what with the island continent of India being one giant volcano at the time.
Then, why not, for TTL, speculate that this group inhabits Japan?

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Then, why not, for TTL, speculate that this group inhabits Japan?
Yeah, something Japanny was above sea level during that period.

http://www.abc.net.au/ozfossil/img/contient/cretaceous-map2.gif

[Othniel]

Hmm, what Dinosaurs inhabitted the Indian subcontinet?

[Wendell]

Australia, Tasmania, or New Zealand could work...

[Othniel]

I just want the Indian subcontinet,that didn't crash into Asia, and possible dinosaurs that exsisted or were found to exsist on that land mass. Make them afraid of water....

[Wendell]

I just want the Indian subcontinet,that didn't crash into Asia, and possible dinosaurs that exsisted or were found to exsist on that land mass. Make them afraid of water....
Madagascar used to be attached to India, and was uninhabited well into the Common Era in OTL...

[MerryPrankster]

Good ideas - I'm not sure about technological development and aggressiveness, though. The more agressive a species is, the more they are willing to kill each other. The more intelligent a species is, the more they are able to do that. Both together doesn't mix very well - especially once a uniting enemy is gone.

They also have elaborate clan-based societies that often war with each other. Their wars are often a means of expansion, since the losers are exiled to the frontier zones. Their more aggressive nature also leads to more interstellar travel--new species to conquer (or at last fight with) and new interesting things to find.

They're quite willing to kill each other. In my story, they enter space about 1000 years before humanity does, but when humans encounter them, they're equivalent. Their tendency for intrigue and dynastic wars, plus earlier intelligent competition and a slow FTL drive, gave humanity the time it needed to avoid becoming a vassal race or lunch.

[jolo]

They also have elaborate clan-based societies that often war with each other. Their wars are often a means of expansion, since the losers are exiled to the frontier zones. Their more aggressive nature also leads to more interstellar travel--new species to conquer (or at last fight with) and new interesting things to find.

They're quite willing to kill each other. In my story, they enter space about 1000 years before humanity does, but when humans encounter them, they're equivalent. Their tendency for intrigue and dynastic wars, plus earlier intelligent competition and a slow FTL drive, gave humanity the time it needed to avoid becoming a vassal race or lunch.

Nice. I once thought about a life form developing in sth. like an asteroid belt. They can travel through space, though they are not very advanced.

[Adamanteus]

Make a TL where this is the dominant group somewhere in the world in 1492:
http://www.astrosurf.org/lombry/Bio/dinoman-closeup-schallers183.jpg

That's easy.

65 MYA -- The Chicxulub meteor does not strike earth, avoiding the total extinction of the Cretaceous dinosaurs.

65-60 MYA -- In North America (or its equivalent), a carnivorous, intelligent dinosaur, named Troodon formosus, evolves into its baseline sentient form. It forms a society based on cooperation in hunting, and gradually expands its resources through agriculture, and an omnivorous diet (with suitable evolutionary modification). It gradually colonizes all of North America.

c. 58 MYA -- Seaworthy ships are invented that allow colonization of essentially the entire planet in a very short period of time, since the other continents are closer than OTL.

Shall I go on?

[MarkA]

That's easy.

65 MYA -- The Chicxulub meteor does not strike earth, avoiding the total extinction of the Cretaceous dinosaurs.

65-60 MYA -- In North America (or its equivalent), a carnivorous, intelligent dinosaur, named Troodon formosus, evolves into its baseline sentient form. It forms a society based on cooperation in hunting, and gradually expands its resources through agriculture, and an omnivorous diet (with suitable evolutionary modification). It gradually colonizes all of North America.

c. 58 MYA -- Seaworthy ships are invented that allow colonization of essentially the entire planet in a very short period of time, since the other continents are closer than OTL.

Shall I go on?

How do they survive unchanged for 58 million years? The challange was to have them dominant somewhere in 1492.

[Adamanteus]

How do they survive unchanged for 58 million years? The challange was to have them dominant somewhere in 1492.

Ok, that's harder, but not impossible...

In the technified future of this great society, some persons go on a relativistic journey to some far flung planet, and then come back 58 million years later to Earth, which has been long abandoned by their transcendant ancestors into Pleistocene pristineness.

[Straha]

Well with the frog/lizard people of the amazon wouldn't they quickly spread to the rest ouf the warmer parts of the americas? That would be truly weird...

[Wendell]

Well with the frog/lizard people of the amazon wouldn't they quickly spread to the rest ouf the warmer parts of the americas? That would be truly weird...
True. The question would then be where do they stop.