Goebbels at Nuremberg

[kittiesRcool]

There's lots of "WI Hitler survived" threads, but not as many dealing with Goebbels. Would the master of propaganda significantly change the dynamics at the Nuremberg Trials?

[Jokerang]

There's lots of "WI Hitler survived" threads, but not as many dealing with Goebbels. Would the master of propaganda significantly change the dynamics at the Nuremberg Trials?
why would he let himself be captured anyway?

[kittiesRcool]

Maybe he tries to escape to South America but gets caught.

[informationfan]

Maybe he tries to escape to South America but gets caught.


but then he will not be in nürnberg... the plot cannot work

if he escapes he will do nothing. the world will try to catch him, but like mengele he will escape

thats it... goebbels without the nazi party and power to put his mouthshit in the world is nothing, a handicaped idiot

[kittiesRcool]

No, he gets caught before he leaves Germany.

[xxmagex]

The problem is that Goebbels would have had the chance to testify. Goering did testify and by all accounts ran circles around the American Prosecutor Robert Jackson during cross-examination.
http://mnbar.org/benchandbar/2002/oct02/cross-exam.htm
http://www.adl.org/education/dimensions_19/section2/goering.asp


Goebbels probably could have done better than Goering during his testimony. It would have been a PR problem for the Allies. Perhaps the presence of Goebbels would cause the selection of a prosecutor who actually knew how to conduct a cross-examination.

[informationfan]

No, he gets caught before he leaves Germany.


oh, sorry i misread your post

well - if he get caught, he will kill himself.
So no goebbels at nuernberg

sorry, that is near asb

[LOTLOF]

No matter how entertaining Goebbles might be on the stand there was no chance at all of his being spared. As with Goering there was a mountain of evidence against him. He would swing on the gallows, but at least his wife and children would get to live in this scenario.

[informationfan]

No matter how entertaining Goebbles might be on the stand there was no chance at all of his being spared. As with Goering there was a mountain of evidence against him. He would swing on the gallows, but at least his wife and children would get to live in this scenario.


nope,. magda was the real nazi...she made the decision to kill the kids, he was against it.

the bock vom Babelsberg was a dwarf with his wife, the true evil nazi woman.

so no hanging, only self murder...

[Shawn Endresen]

Goebbels can't save himself, but he can eviscerate the case against some of his "lessers", and probably would do so. He panics under pressure, but even his second-best work would do the trick. Von Schirach and von Neurath walk; Doenitz might walk.

Doenitz is clean enough that he might have a postwar career in Germany, with the Allies' blessing. I wonder what von Schirach would do with their freedom.

[Derek Jackson]

I have heard the view that Doenitz was fully aware of the Nazi Genocide campaign and accepted it.

By the way he obviously was involved in planning aggressive war.

By the way how much was Goebles in the loop about plans to start wars and murder whole peoples?

[Shawn Endresen]

Fully aware? Probably. Able to do anything about it except resign or commit suicide in protest? Nope.

He was acquitted of planning aggressive war in OTL; too junior, participated in violating Versailles but that wasn't held as criminal in itself at Nuremburg. The only thing he was convicted of was War Crimes, the sinking of civilian vessels - and you get a sharp divide on the court on that one. Allied military officers conceded that his targets were legitimate; civilians generally did not.

The balance is close enough on Doenitz that one more powerful argument could tip it; Goebbels says that he declared the targets legitimate, f'r'ex...

[torque7844]

I have heard the view that Doenitz was fully aware of the Nazi Genocide campaign and accepted it.

By the way he obviously was involved in planning aggressive war.

By the way how much was Goebles in the loop about plans to start wars and murder whole peoples?

I'm pretty sure he was at least in the loop on the plans to divert food from a conquered Russia to Germany leaving millions of Russians to starve. I don't have my Shirer handy where I'm sitting at the moment but I'm pretty sure there was a reference to it there.

[xxmagex]

No matter how entertaining Goebbles might be on the stand there was no chance at all of his being spared. As with Goering there was a mountain of evidence against him. He would swing on the gallows, but at least his wife and children would get to live in this scenario.

A conviction isn't the issue, the legit standing of the verdict and the discrediting of Naziism in general in the eyes of the world is the important thing. That's why Georing's performance against Robert Jackson was so damaging. It raised the spectre of Nazis arguing that they had not been completely discredited.

If Georing, and Goebbels in this ATL, can claim even a moral victory it leaves a kernel of the possiblity of the Nazis rising from the ashes of post-war Germany at some point. That's why the British prosecutor David Maxwell-Fyfe demolishing of Georing in his cross-examination was so important after Jackson had his head handed to him.

BTW, there was someone from the Propaganda Ministry being tried at Nuremberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Fritzsche
The belief was that he was there as a stand-in for Goebbels.

[Cook]

By the way how much was Goebles in the loop about plans to start wars and murder whole peoples?

Fully.

Goebbels planned Kristallnacht and was the member of Hitler’s inner circle most keep to invade Czechoslovakia in 1938 and Poland in ’39.

What would have been entertaining would be watching Goering and Goebbels tearing strips off each other and each blaming the other for cause and/or the loss of the war. The pair hated each other with a passion; it probably would have come to blows!

[mowque]

It would probably be a forgotten side note.

[Trotsky]

If Goebbels stood before the IMT, then even fewer people would have heard of Hans Fritzsche.

[Nietzsche]

I'm pretty sure he was at least in the loop on the plans to divert food from a conquered Russia to Germany leaving millions of Russians to starve. I don't have my Shirer handy where I'm sitting at the moment but I'm pretty sure there was a reference to it there.

...as bad and horrible as we may see it now, it was mostly common practice during the era to starve the locals, so I don't see that being any more against him than it was Goering.

[torque7844]

...as bad and horrible as we may see it now, it was mostly common practice during the era to starve the locals, so I don't see that being any more against him than it was Goering.

Agreed. I was just responding to Derek's question about whether Goebbels actually knew about Nazi plans to start wars and conduct mass murder.

[Joke Insurance]

but then he will not be in nürnberg... the plot cannot work

He could be extradited.

[Cook]

why would he let himself be captured anyway?

Himmler was captured, had the guards been a bit quicker he’d have been in the dock at Nuremburg.

Goering surrendered himself to the Americans but kept his suicide capsules.

It is therefore not beyond the realm of possibility for Goebbels to be at Nuremburg. You’d have needed a crowbar to get him away from the bloody microphone though.

[Plumber]

Goering, Goebbels, and Himmler at Nuremberg. How it should've been.

[Nietzsche]

Goering, Goebbels, and Himmler at Nuremberg. How it should've been.
I disagree. Goering, I think, may have been treated slightly unfairly by history. Am I the only one who noticed the massive change in his person after the Night of the Long Knives? It was like he was a broken man afterward.

[garageman_mike]

Nietzshe, I'm intrigued. How was Goering different after Night of Long Knives?

[informationfan]

Fully aware? Probably. Able to do anything about it except resign or commit suicide in protest? Nope.

He was acquitted of planning aggressive war in OTL; too junior, participated in violating Versailles but that wasn't held as criminal in itself at Nuremburg. The only thing he was convicted of was War Crimes, the sinking of civilian vessels - and you get a sharp divide on the court on that one. Allied military officers conceded that his targets were legitimate; civilians generally did not.

The balance is close enough on Doenitz that one more powerful argument could tip it; Goebbels says that he declared the targets legitimate, f'r'ex...

err... sorry - doenitz wasn´t hold guilty for commiting war crimes... he was commited for other things, but with Nimitz declaring, that his submarines did it the same way from beginning this case was closed.
Or do i misunderstood you?

[Meadow]

err... sorry - doenitz wasn´t hold guilty for commiting war crimes... he was commited for other things, but with Nimitz declaring, that his submarines did it the same way from beginning this case was closed.
Or do i misunderstood you?

I think Nimitz deserves a huge amount of respect for that. Nuremburg still has the whiff of victors' justice lingering over it in some cases (when it comes to the military, not the Nazis, obviously - Jodl is the most controversial hanging IIRC) but it was decisions like Nimitz's that made it a just end to the war rather than Versailles II: The Trial.

Morrell does the same thing in TL-191, doesn't he? Defending Potter because the USA used enemy uniforms too.

[Ferreolus]

...as bad and horrible as we may see it now, it was mostly common practice during the era to starve the locals, so I don't see that being any more against him than it was Goering.
Huh? I know that the Allies prohibit food imports into Germany directly after the war which led to a dire food situation in Germany and left many death, but they never planned to let millions of Germans wilfully starve to death.

The Nazis in contrast saw death by starvation as a convenient means to kill of the undesired Slavic populations of Eastern Europe.

[informationfan]

Himmler was captured, had the guards been a bit quicker he’d have been in the dock at Nuremburg.

Goering surrendered himself to the Americans but kept his suicide capsules.

It is therefore not beyond the realm of possibility for Goebbels to be at Nuremburg. You’d have needed a crowbar to get him away from the bloody microphone though.


nope - himmler wasnt nearly captured.
he was with doenitz in flensburg... the british troops neared and himmler commit self murder... under no circumstances can they catch him. not in this universe.

[Meadow]

nope - himmler wasnt nearly captured.
he was with doenitz in flensburg... the british troops neared and himmler commit self murder... under no circumstances can they catch him. not in this universe.

No, he was captured with some other officials and when he was recognised as Himmler he decided it probably was for the best that he wasn't alive anymore. So he was in custody for a while.

[informationfan]

I think Nimitz deserves a huge amount of respect for that. Nuremburg still has the whiff of victors' justice lingering over it in some cases (when it comes to the military, not the Nazis, obviously - Jodl is the most controversial hanging IIRC) but it was decisions like Nimitz's that made it a just end to the war rather than Versailles II: The Trial.

Morrell does the same thing in TL-191, doesn't he? Defending Potter because the USA used enemy uniforms too.


well, basically nürnberg is a mess, criminal and not worth to be remembered.

writing this i does not mean i have any friendly thoughts about the nazis there...

but - if you follow law you cannot change law and speak "justice" witch changed laws...

also, if you punish evil behaviour, some/many? allied officers should have been next to these guys in nürnberg... looking into a death sentence...
but the allies made clear that crimes commited by allies will not be counted... so basically this "law" is nothing else as Freislers "law"...

it had been better to wait untill some german judication comes online, make laws and then let the germans punish these guys.

but anytime the Victory nations do unjust things but punish the enemy for the same things this is not law, only a joke.

about some death sentences... they checked in the last 10 years, many are mistakes

from a moral point they deserved death - but morality has nothing to do with justice... and with this it wasn´t a smart or just idea.

The problem is, such crimes like the nazis did had no laws that could counter them... so - if you would be "just", they need to be spoken free...

today, any lawyer will free em in 5 minutes... so if this is true the whole thing is wrong.

or to make it even clearer: gassing people wasn´t illegal... it was evil crime, but not illegal (i hope you see the point - i do not excuse the nazis, just the way they were treated after the war was not legal)

[informationfan]

No, he was captured with some other officials and when he was recognised as Himmler he decided it probably was for the best that he wasn't alive anymore. So he was in custody for a while.


well, have you some source?

common knowlege is, that himmler was with doenitz, in the moment the british troops to arrest the "last german government" come near the building he killed himself...

if german guards (until may 23 they had still weapons) had arrested him, maybe... but not british troops

[informationfan]

Huh? I know that the Allies prohibit food imports into Germany directly after the war which led to a dire food situation in Germany and left many death, but they never planned to let millions of Germans wilfully starve to death.

The Nazis in contrast saw death by starvation as a convenient means to kill of the undesired Slavic populations of Eastern Europe.

err.. that isn´t true... morgentau plan was the most important one... kaufmann another...

so the plans to kill or let die 20-30 million germans exist. the will to do it was there, too... just the economics said, with an agricultural germany central europe will never recover... and esp the usa had no interests in paying forever...

if you look deeper into it, the allies let die a lot germans in late 1945... even in 1946 the supply situation was really bad, much worse than it could have been, this was part of the "punishment"

So you are not true - that is nothing compared with the nazis crime, but if you remember the 800.000-1mio dead germans by the british blocade in 1914-1919!, it was common behaviour. Not in that scale or purpose, but still, it happend and was used - even later by the french in algeria... after the holocaust.

some "historicans" belive (can´t say that this is true - but if you want to look yourself) that Eisenhower led die 20-30% of the "Rheinwiesen-prisoners"... fact is, they denied the german prisioners nearly anything, so many died. This comes near the "kill by starvation", it was after the war

just look for "Rheinwiesen 1945"...

If you like you can throw in also the "german wimen need to have sex with allied soldiers to not die by starvation"... today this would be a big outcry, the soldiers, the officers high to Eisenhower would be imprisoned... another thing that wasn´t punished (i mentioned it: you win your wars, or peace will be hell)

So, maybe you dig a bit in the internet to find out... again, nothing in the scale the nazis did, but still big crimes

but everybody with a smart brain knows, war is hell and no good exist in it.

[Cook]

nope - himmler wasnt nearly captured.
he was with doenitz in flensburg... the british troops neared and himmler commit self murder... under no circumstances can they catch him. not in this universe.

Here’s a tip, learn some history before trying to argue around here.

Himmler was captured by the British in Bremen (nowhere near Flensburg) on 22 May 1945. He had tried to evade capture by disguising himself as a member of the Gendarmerie but was identified while in captivity. His was due to be interrogated at Luneburg prior to being sent to Nuremburg for trial but bit a cyanide capsule when he was about to be strip searched. He died on the 23 May 1945.


well, have you some source?
Try a history book.

[Meadow]

Here’s a tip, learn some history before trying to argue around here.

Himmler was captured by the British in Bremen on 22 May 1945. He had tried to evade capture by disguising himself as a member of the Gendarmerie but was identified while in captivity. His was due to be interrogated at Luneburg prior to being sent to Nuremburg for trial but bit a cyanide capsule when he was about to be strip searched. He died on the 23 May 1945.

This. It's common knowledge, as opposed to what you claimed was common knowledge. Which, er, isn't.

[Cook]

err... sorry - doenitz wasn´t hold guilty for commiting war crimes...


Doenitz was found guilty of Crimes against Peace and War Crimes.

well, basically nürnberg is a mess, criminal and not worth to be remembered...

Internationally the Nuremburg War Crimes Trials are recognised as one of the benchmark events of International Law.

To err once is forgivable but you’ve so far repeatedly come out with blatantly ridiculous remarks. I suggest you stop now before you become the first person I have ever reported for trolling.

[Cook]

Am I the only one who noticed the massive change in his person after the Night of the Long Knives? It was like he was a broken man afterward.

You are indeed alone. Goering was one of the key conspirators of the Night of the Long Knives. Gregor Strasser, who was not a supporter of Ernst Rhome and posed no threat to Hitler, was eliminated because he was a rival to Goering and Himmler. The Night of the Long Knives was in 1934; Goering didn’t even become Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe until 1935 and wasn’t given authority over the Four Year Plan until 1936. Goering’s peak of power, prestige and influence wasn’t until 1938-39.

He was found guilty of all three indictments at Nuremburg and there has never been a whiff of doubt about his guilt.

[MerryPrankster]

nope - himmler wasnt nearly captured.
he was with doenitz in flensburg... the british troops neared and himmler commit self murder... under no circumstances can they catch him. not in this universe.

Maybe if they bust into his bedroom while he's asleep?

Your hard-core certainty doesn't really belong in AH.

[wietze]

Informationfan i think this adds a little more info to the point about starving german pow to death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disarmed_Enemy_Forces

[Ferreolus]

but - if you follow law you cannot change law and speak "justice" witch changed laws...
They didn't create law. What the Nazis did was against international law as it existed before the begin of World War II. It wasn't codified, but that's no prerequisite for something being the law.

also, if you punish evil behaviour, some/many? allied officers should have been next to these guys in nürnberg... looking into a death sentence...
but the allies made clear that crimes commited by allies will not be counted... so basically this "law" is nothing else as Freislers "law"...
While War crimes happened on allied sides as well, your claim has no base in fact. The Allies did neither start the war nor tried to exterminate whole nations. Also you must remember, that some of the accused got free, because allied officers testified that they had use the same means.

The problem is, such crimes like the nazis did had no laws that could counter them... so - if you would be "just", they need to be spoken free...
That's not true. By the time WWII had started waging a war of aggression to acquire new territory was clearly not considered acceptable by customary international law, as evidenced for example by the reaction of the declaration of independence of Manchuria.

or to make it even clearer: gassing people wasn´t illegal... it was evil crime, but not illegal (i hope you see the point - i do not excuse the nazis, just the way they were treated after the war was not legal)
It was illegal, both under international as well as under domestic German law. Heck, it was even illegal under the laws the Nazis had warped the original German law to.