American Empire series

[aktarian]

I don't think there is thread for this. If it is....

About 1/2 through The victorious opposition. Have several issues I want to get off my chest and since you are only folks I know who read them or are interested in genre here it goes....

POTENTIAL SPOILERS AHEAD

OK, once again characters are reintroduced. And if that wasn't bad enough they are reintroduced through out the book. I think I read 4 times how Potter did what he did at Olympics and how he ended up where he is. I REMEMBER WHAT HE DID, IT WAS 80 PAGES BACK, DAMNIT. I THINK I HAVE A BIT LONGER MEMORY THAN GOLDFISH. :rolleyes:

Events outside N America described only brieflly and only when they affect characters.

Events mirror things from OTL too much. Not just in this book but in entire series. Featherston hates officers and blacks. CSA has rampant inflation. "Freikorps". FP starts small. Featherston seizes power in party. He has hate filled book (altough it wasn't published, I guess Turledove dropped the idea). Is prevented from gaining power right away. Party fades into obscurity. Economic crash makes them strong again. Olympics :rolleyes: . "Austria". "Emergency powers" a bit different due to nature of political system in CSA as opposed to Germany. "Night of Long Knives". Camps, initially for political oponents. Public works. As I said I'm about 1/2 through but I sense "Sudetenland" and "Rhineland" already. Featherston isn't excesive in drinking and IIRC doesn't smoke. Has devoted secretary he virtually ignores. "SA" with their own ranks (altough no "SS"). Reintroduction of draft. Featherston gambler who gets his way but lacks strategic perception. Excellent memory for details. Guess making him a painter was too much even for Turtledove. :rolleyes:

Altough the problem I see is how CSA will gain upper hand. Germany did it with totally new warfighting doctrine. Here US adopted doctrine that won Germans early victories.

[Xen]

Thats why I gave up on Turtledove's series. The Great War is damn good, so was How Few Remain (though like others I dont know how come nothing what so ever changed in Europe). Some people may talk about Turtledove like he is Alternate History's guru, or god if you will, I personally find him nothing more than an average to a little above average AH'er. Apparently he has never heard of the term "think outside of the box". Nor do I think he has much respect for his readers and their knowledge of history.

[Trotsky]

[QUOTE=aktarian]
Events mirror things from OTL too much. Not just in this book but in entire series. Featherston hates officers and blacks. CSA has rampant inflation. "Freikorps". FP starts small. Featherston seizes power in party. He has hate filled book (altough it wasn't published, I guess Turledove dropped the idea). Is prevented from gaining power right away. Party fades into obscurity. Economic crash makes them strong again. Olympics :rolleyes: . "Austria". "Emergency powers" a bit different due to nature of political system in CSA as opposed to Germany. "Night of Long Knives". Camps, initially for political oponents. Public works. As I said I'm about 1/2 through but I sense "Sudetenland" and "Rhineland" already. Featherston isn't excesive in drinking and IIRC doesn't smoke. Has devoted secretary he virtually ignores. "SA" with their own ranks (altough no "SS"). Reintroduction of draft. Featherston gambler who gets his way but lacks strategic perception. Excellent memory for details. Guess making him a painter was too much even for Turtledove. :rolleyes:
QUOTE]


Well, Jake's secretary is in her old age, so I would ignore her too. He does drink, and he smokes Habana cigars. And he doesn't really declare the need to have emergency powers, except with the Red guerillas that are basically nill. The stalwarts who wear butternut and white shirts and beat up voters they don't like are the SA analog, and they're the ones who tried to kill him. And there is an SS- Featherston's bodyguards are the ones who have their own ranks, not the stalwarts.

Besides, HT wasn't emulating just Hitler; he also had FDR/New Deal elements in with it: like the TVA, agricultural strides, knocking heads in the Supreme Court, etc. You haven't read all of the book yet, so I won't delve into what else happens, but I do believe that not everything here is a carbon copy of real life

[aktarian]

Well, Jake's secretary is in her old age, so I would ignore her too. He does drink, and he smokes Habana cigars.

I know he drinks, he isn't teetotaler like hitler but isn't excessive drinker. I forgot about cigars. :mad:


And he doesn't really declare the need to have emergency powers, except with the Red guerillas that are basically nill.

With emergency powers in Germany Hitler removed any obstacles that stood in his goal of absolute power. With repealing of 7 words there isn't anything that can prevnt Featherston from gaining absolute power.


The stalwarts who wear butternut and white shirts and beat up voters they don't like are the SA analog, and they're the ones who tried to kill him. And there is an SS- Featherston's bodyguards are the ones who have their own ranks, not the stalwarts.

True but camps aren't run by them and they are quite small. Also ranks closelly mirror German translations, altough not positions.


Besides, HT wasn't emulating just Hitler; he also had FDR/New Deal elements in with it: like the TVA, agricultural strides, knocking heads in the Supreme Court, etc.

I said public works, like Hitler had. Altough not roads but dams.


You haven't read all of the book yet, so I won't delve into what else happens, but I do believe that not everything here is a carbon copy of real life

Not everything but too much for my taste. aLtough I'm likely to buy next series as well.

At least he got rid of some characters I didn't like.

[Archangel Michael]

The camsp themselves are run by the stalwarts, which I think should be given a name other than 'stalwarts', and same with the party guards. Throughout the Victorious Opposition after the assasination attempt by stalwarts, I was waiting for a version of the Night of the Long Knives.

[ljofa]

There was a kind of Night of the Long Knives when Willy Knight was arrested. The two big fish in OTL paralleling him are Franz von Papen and Ernst Rohm.

To be honest, I can see Willy Knight being a Konrad Adenauer figure being released as the new CSA president after the war.

[aktarian]

To be honest, I can see Willy Knight being a Konrad Adenauer figure being released as the new CSA president after the war.

That is asuming:
A. He survives war
B. CSA looses the war
C. US is willing to have him in power

[Trotsky]

I think that the camps are run by both stalwarts and guards (shouldn't they be capitalized?), but more with guards because the stalwarts are kinda untrustworthy right now. Featherston makes that point several times.

I assumed that if there was an analog to the Rohm Purge, it would be the combination of Willy Knight's resignation and incarceration, and Huey Long's assassination/ CSA invasion of Louisiana. Anyways they both took place in the same year-1938.

And I'm glad there isn't any of that occult nonsense or Aryan "ubermen" crap, with instead just plain Freedom Party rallies and stuff.

In regards to Joseph Goebbels/Saul Goldman, it seems that they have a personality switch: like Goebbels was as fanatic as his Leader, and just as good a speaker, while Goldman just shuffles around and answers Jake's requests with, "Yes, Mr. Featherston." It also seems like no one in the CSA or USA knows just how the CSA's media is run so smoothly, while in the Third Reich Dr. Goebbels was on the air as often as others.

[Trotsky]

To be honest, I can see Willy Knight being a Konrad Adenauer figure being released as the new CSA president after the war.

Sorry to reply again in one row, but I ended the last book thinking that Clarence Potter would be in that spot. Now I think that General Potter is the Admiral Canaris analog while i can see Knight as an Adenauer. But then again what was Adenauer's party? Knight was in the Freedom Party, so the victorious USA might would rather set up a Radical Liberal, or perhaps a Whig.

[aktarian]

I assumed that if there was an analog to the Rohm Purge, it would be the combination of Willy Knight's resignation and incarceration, and Huey Long's assassination/ CSA invasion of Louisiana. Anyways they both took place in the same year-1938.

Lousiana is Austria....

Think about it. Dictator but not of same political party (similar but not same). Refuses to bow to CSA. Persecutes FP members. Is killed. CSA walks in and replaces it's regime with "proper one". I'm not sure but isn't Luisiana more different from other states in US than others (more French influence....). If yes there's another parallel. Very similar countries, but not quite same.

[Trotsky]

Lousiana is Austria....

Think about it. Dictator but not of same political party (similar but not same). Refuses to bow to CSA. Persecutes FP members. Is killed. CSA walks in and replaces it's regime with "proper one". I'm not sure but isn't Luisiana more different from other states in US than others (more French influence....). If yes there's another parallel. Very similar countries, but not quite same.

I suppose so. It does make sense now that I see it that way. Huey Long would make a good analog to E. Dollfuss, but I think that the Kingfish has more charisma and people power than the good Austrian doctor.

[ljofa]

Adenauer - hmmm, former mayor of Köln - I have a feeling he might have been a member of the Catholic Centre Party before it was banned but I'm not sure. As Knight hasn't been privvy to the worst excesses of the Freedom Party, he could be an acceptable leader. I can see Turtledove creating a special forces team springing him from prison to set up a Government in exile where he denounces Featherstone...

[aktarian]

If US goes for party man I'd say it would be Rad Lib. Wigs were in power prior to FP takeover while Rad Libs were mostly on sidelines.

[ljofa]

Depends how magnamimous they feel. USA could absorb the CSA or break it up into 2 or more nations.

[aktarian]

Finished. Tutledove made US all Allies. UK and their apeasing policy. France and attack from unsuspecte side. SU as in bigger but worse military (not to mention kicking in the door metaphore and date of start of attack :rolleyes: ).

I think this war will look like E front. CSA will slash toward Philadelphia, will be stoped within sight of it (what's weather like there anyway?) and war will ground on and become war of atrittion. I just wonder which US city will be Stalingrad.

[zoomar]

The Race will show up, befriend the Indians in Sequoyah and nuke Richmond..oh wrong book. They all seem the same.

[Grey Wolf]

I have been thinking long and hard about this series, because it BORES ME RIGID ! I can read only a couple of pages a day. I think the reason is that at least a third of the book is simply social commentary - all the recent chapters up to where I am that feature Chester, Cincinnatus or Sylvia have absolutely NO RELEVANCE to the plot. I know all my criticisms can be turned on their head against my own writing, but I think that the difference is that in AFOE for example the many characters were all used to advance the plot, give a different perspective and let the reader know what was happening somewhere else in the world. By contrast, in American Empire, Turtledove for some reason refuses to set a chapter overseas - he had no problem doing this in the World War series, so why he has now I have no idea. So, instead of seeing what is going on in London or Berlin or France, the additional characters that could have been major players are all designated to be the no-one-very-muches of a North American social history. It may even be 'well written' but I have no interest in Chester's family problems, or in whether Ernie can get it up tonight. If this was a novel by an unknown person the editor would demand that a whole load be slashed out for doing nothing to advance the plot whatsoever

Grey Wolf

[zoomar]

Absolutely right. No novice author would stand a chance with his editor breaking all the rules of effective fiction writing Turtledone does. Thank god Mr. Hemingway finally kills himelf and what's-her-name so we won't have THAT issue to deal with in the next series! A related compaint I have is that he even creates so many essentially similar characters that its hard to keep them straight. Just how many Canadian farmers or U/CS workers do we have to know about? I agree with you, GW, that if he has to do this, at least put some in England, France, Germany so we get a more interesting global perspective.

All of this is a shame, because Turtledove is capable of some interesting speculatoin.

[aktarian]

Grey Wolf, you might want to skip this post as there are many spoilers



Thank god Mr. Hemingway finally kills himelf and what's-her-name so we won't have THAT issue to deal with in the next series!

Unfortunatlly people that die in this book have offspring and we follow their story. So now instead of Sylvia we have her son, instead of Nellie we have her grandson. :rolleyes:

Turtledove killed off lot of characters I liked in GW and left ones that were useless outside GW.

Sylvia? After she shot Kimball Turtledove could easilly drop her or significatlly reduce her presence. In Centre cannot hold her character was useless. OK she campaigned for Dems. Kennedy wanted to get in her panties. And that has to do with story how?

Or Nellie? She got married, gave birth and died. OK, in GW she was important, after it, no. One more character who cold be significatlly reduced in presence.

With death of that pharmacist in CSA we lost perspective on how ordinary people lived in CSA and weren't enthusiastic FP members. OK, we have Potter but he is different. We have Cinncinatus who is black and Pinkart who is FP man through and through. If Turtledove was willing to make so many characters in US one more in CSA would be nice.

I was hoping that fanatical christian in GW would live. He would be interesting had he stayed in the army. I could see him becoming at least a colonel. OK, it was war and people had to die. But why keep least interesting characters and kill off good ones?

[Xen]

I have been thinking long and hard about this series, because it BORES ME RIGID ! I can read only a couple of pages a day. I think the reason is that at least a third of the book is simply social commentary - all the recent chapters up to where I am that feature Chester, Cincinnatus or Sylvia have absolutely NO RELEVANCE to the plot. I know all my criticisms can be turned on their head against my own writing, but I think that the difference is that in AFOE for example the many characters were all used to advance the plot, give a different perspective and let the reader know what was happening somewhere else in the world. By contrast, in American Empire, Turtledove for some reason refuses to set a chapter overseas - he had no problem doing this in the World War series, so why he has now I have no idea. So, instead of seeing what is going on in London or Berlin or France, the additional characters that could have been major players are all designated to be the no-one-very-muches of a North American social history. It may even be 'well written' but I have no interest in Chester's family problems, or in whether Ernie can get it up tonight. If this was a novel by an unknown person the editor would demand that a whole load be slashed out for doing nothing to advance the plot whatsoever

Grey Wolf

I agree with this 100%. I lost intrest in this series after World War I ended, that was a good series and the aftermath could have been better written. Id like to see something that goes on in occupied Canada. Defeated France and Russia would be intresting too see more than one chapter set in Brest France. Theres also alot of sex in his books *LOL* I sometimes thinks he goes into too much detail with whose having sex with who and what they are doing during the sexual romp.

I agree your AFOE is much better, I cant wait til you put it back up again. My only complaint was I didnt get to see what was going on in the United States, but other than that its one of the if not the best AH I have ever read.

[zoomar]

Grey Wolf, you might want to skip this post as there are many spoilers


I was hoping that fanatical christian in GW would live. He would be interesting had he stayed in the army. I could see him becoming at least a colonel. OK, it was war and people had to die. But why keep least interesting characters and kill off good ones?

I don't even remember him. The only vaguely relgious character I remember was that toady Fr Pascal in Quebec. There were also the Mormons, also, I guess. Actually, I'd have actually liked to see other explicitly religious characters (priests, ministers, rabbis, etc) as that's one aspect of North American social/cultural alternate history Turtledove did not explore as much as he could have.

[aktarian]

I don't even remember him. The only vaguely relgious character I remember was that toady Fr Pascal in Quebec. There were also the Mormons, also, I guess. Actually, I'd have actually liked to see other explicitly religious characters (priests, ministers, rabbis, etc) as that's one aspect of North American social/cultural alternate history Turtledove did not explore as much as he could have.

Mcgregor or something. He gets medal for destroying CSA tank with flamethrower (end of second book IIRC) and another for destroying river ironclad. He was always reminding troops around him not to curse and generally wasn't shy about leting his religious preferences known.

He dies when shell explodes near him close to end of war. He fought with that Greek guy who also died, but Greek dies sooner.

[Archangel Michael]

I thought McGregor was the Canadian who made the bombs, and then got blown up by one of his own. oh, the irony.

[aktarian]

Gordon McSweeney, sorry.

[Archangel Michael]

at least put some in England, France, Germany so we get a more interesting global perspective.

I agree. That's one of the many problems I discovered early on about HT's series.

[Trotsky]

Yeah, I was hoping that we'd see Anne Colleton in action dealing with the Action Francaise in AE:TVO, but no. Maybe she'll get posted elsewhere as the war progresses.

[aktarian]

I agree. That's one of the many problems I discovered early on about HT's series.

Worldwar/Colonisation covers this quite well.

[zoomar]

Gordon McSweeney, sorry.


McGregor, McSweeney. Point made, way too many characters that we can't keep straight, neither of which mattered one iota to the overall narrative. If I were Turtledove, I'd have made the entire GW, AE series focus on the POV of 1-2 main characters (either a big cheese like Featherston or a truly interesting minor guy like Scipio.

[aktarian]

McGregor, McSweeney. Point made, way too many characters that we can't keep straight, neither of which mattered one iota to the overall narrative. If I were Turtledove, I'd have made the entire GW, AE series focus on the POV of 1-2 main characters (either a big cheese like Featherston or a truly interesting minor guy like Scipio.

McGregors are there to show life in occupied English speaking Canada. Galtirs were there to show life in French speaking Quebec. Both are characters that have place. Nellie and Slyvia don't, specially in AE, GW was different.

I liked McSweeney because he was interesting character. OK, there were so amny characters in GW that showed basically same viewpoint that some had to go. But personally I'd rather have McSweeney then Martin in AE.

[Trotsky]

McGregors are there to show life in occupied English speaking Canada. Galtirs were there to show life in French speaking Quebec. Both are characters that have place. Nellie and Slyvia don't, specially in AE, GW was different.

I liked McSweeney because he was interesting character. OK, there were so amny characters in GW that showed basically same viewpoint that some had to go. But personally I'd rather have McSweeney then Martin in AE.

Me thinks that . . .

Martin is supposed to show the labor trouble that happened in OTL depression. McSweeny. . . . is a religious nut who enjoys war because it is his "appointed role in life." I really liked his character, but he didn't have much purpose past 1917, like Nellie, Ramsay, and Mantarakis.

We need a Schlieffen-type character (instead of a European here as in How Few Remains, we need an American/Confederate Over There) to report on progress overseas, but not a worldwide spectrum like in WW/Colonization.

And personally, I think that President Smith should step down and a tough guy to take his spot, so we can have an SOB vs SOB war, like Hitler vs. Stalin.

[David Howery]

hey, Smith is a socialist, which automatically makes him an SOB :p
I suppose he's the counterpart to Stalin....

[Thyme]

I don't think there were too many characters. Almost all of them had something to add to understanding the situation. I would have liked to have seen a couple of characters involved in the European theater. Maybe that would have worked well as a separate book, sort of a fourth companion volume for each trilogy, that comes out after/at the same time as the third book. I'd buy them.

[David Howery]

Too many characters? Does this mean you guys have never read "The Longest Day" or any of Cornelius Ryan's other books as well? Lots of characters there too....

[Trotsky]

Lots of interesting characters are a plus, but then each of their parts would have to be shortened, or else the book expanded. I liked the layout in the Worldwar books, when characters came out and left as necessary to key parts of the plot, and not having to wait a hundred pages for their next segment.

Maybe George Enos Jr will, instead of joining the Navy, join the Marines and participate in raids in Europe or something. Just a thought for all the talk about having characters in Europe.

HT should write a history-book on his timeline, starting with Secession in 1861 and covering every key part of world history, with emphasis on North America of course, until the end of the Second Great War, ala that one guy who wrote 'For Want of a Nail'. That would be killer.

[Trotsky]

Or, instead of hoping Turtledove writes it, maybe someone out there on the internet will write his own history of the USA/CSA timeline, and create his own educated guesses as to what happened in the rest of the world.

[zoomar]

Too many characters? Does this mean you guys have never read "The Longest Day" or any of Cornelius Ryan's other books as well? Lots of characters there too....


Yeah, but those works (as well as John Toland's stuff) are narrative popular history. Turtledove is writing fiction, and not in in a style emulating popular non-fiction. Maybe he should have.

[Raymann]

Yeah I liked McSweeney. Insteed of socialists party, he should have had a religious right party. The flamethower was awsome. Anyway I don't know about ya'll but I found the Southern characters MUCH more intresting. I mean the Driver family, whats his name in charge of the prisoner soon-to-be-concentration camp, Anne, and of course the Hitler wannabe (ditto on the Mexican though). Who cares about a fisherman's wife or a coffee shop owner? We want people involved in serious political/social change not some irrevelent slice of society.

I also think some of the miliray matters would have been calmed down by now. Utah shouldn't still be occupied. Western Canada at least should be well on their way to becoming states and the East shouldn't still need significant military occupation except to deal with the occasional terrorist incident.

Besides all of its faults though, I'm still eager to read the next book. If you are going to write a lot of irrevelent info, at least do what Turtledove does and write enough books to cover all the good stuff.

[Grey Wolf]

Yay, I've finished it !!!

Actually the last third was a great improvement on the rest of the book, but then again that was where the plot finally woke up and you felt there was some point to most of what you were reading - most of it anyway, I couldn't see the point to the pages on Lucien's death except that I guess Turtledove just wanted to give a good character a deserving send off, but I have to admit I skim-read them (and even in this book I rarely did that). The ending with the Featherston-Potter interplay was done very nicely though the last couple of paragraphs seemed to lack quite the dramatic edge I was hoping.

Grey Wolf

[zoomar]

Yay, I've finished it !!!

Actually the last third was a great improvement on the rest of the book, but then again that was where the plot finally woke up and you felt there was some point to most of what you were reading - most of it anyway, I couldn't see the point to the pages on Lucien's death except that I guess Turtledove just wanted to give a good character a deserving send off, but I have to admit I skim-read them (and even in this book I rarely did that). The ending with the Featherston-Potter interplay was done very nicely though the last couple of paragraphs seemed to lack quite the dramatic edge I was hoping.

Grey Wolf


I agree, GW, the whole thing got a lot better after the surprising assasination attempt on Featherston. The change in Potter from anti-Featherston radical to inadvertent Featherston-supporting hero, and how the two of them used each other to gain additional power was a surprise and high-point of the whole book. Unlike most of the other characters just plodding along doing exactly what you'd expect them to do.