Favourite Alternate America.

[Landshark]

Pretty much what it says above:

The DNA is America were the revolution was avoided or won by Britain.

The USSA is, of course, a Godless Commie America.

The NAU is something like the European Union, i.e. several independent nations (not all of whom speak the same language) loosely banded together.

The EUA is the mirror image of OTL America. A country that fought a Revolution against France (supported by a Britain that eventually became a republic itself), and that still has a special relationship with the Kingdom of France.

The RoV is the country originally founded by Norse explorers.

[Straha]

crud I clicked on the EUA by accident(dealing with popups) the USSA and DNA seem like possible utopias. The types of governemnts created by communit revolutions are shaped by the previous governemnt. American communism would be like swedish socialism with high amounts of social liberalism combined with marxist rhetoric and quotes.

[DominusNovus]

Republic of Vinland seems interesting.

[Straha]

I'm going to someday make a USSA TL...

[Nosb]

I'm going to someday make a USSA TL...

If you do post it. I've been trying to come up with a realistic one and haven't had very muck luck.

[David Howery]

I don't like any of those choices... I want the United States of the Whole Freakin' World :D

[Straha]

my version of the USSA would restult from the USA being far more elitist after the american revolutionary so a young lawyer whose read marx's work, an Abraham Lincoln leads a communist(actually democratic socialist but its called communist) revolution

[Fearless Leader]

Personally the EUA sounds quite intriguing. But one question lurks, How in the world did the French win the 7 years war? :confused:

[Archangel Michael]

I vote for the United States of the Universe!

[Straha]

its the exact mirror opposite ;)

[Landshark]

NOSB:

Once when the USSA came up on the old board it was about the same time as someone mentioning the Madison Constitution, which would appearently allocate the number of seats in Congress bsaed on the wealth of the individual states and I suggested that that would be a place to start for a socialist America:

If wealth is the determining factor in an individual state's representation and therefore power in Washington then the state government is going to be very keen to keep the source of that wealth, the workers, producing said wealth. Strikes could easily be totally illegal and any attempts to organise labour unions would crushed before they could start. It could also be that the state governments wouldn't want their workers moving from their home state to another state, (and therefore decreasing the home state's overall wealth), restrictive laws or manipulation of the houseing market could tie people to the place where they were born/work. In short virtual labour serfdom.

David:

Try the Expansionist Party of the United States

[Landshark]

The EUA is indeed the mirror universe version of the USA, where everyone is evil and has a beard, even the women (but that's just the Europeans for you).

Actually I came up with the idea while reading the Mosaic Earth thread over at the old board. If you remember OTL Great Britain was the Britain of Mosaic Earth and as I came in too late to submit a country I decided to write a short story based on an ME where OTL America was transported to Mosaic Earth. Or at least most of OTL America. George Bush would have woken up to find that not only was the United States cut off from the rest of the world as he knew it but also that the US was sharing it's territory with an independent Republic of Texas threatening to get the British Empire to nuke Washington if US troops violated it's borders, a USSA up around Chicago, a city of anthromorphic cat people where Philidelphia used to be (though Tom might have that one copyrighted ;) ) and worse of all a French USA.

The world of the EUA was intended to be an almost total mirror of OTL, though in someways geography prevents that. The EUA covers the same area as the USA and is bordered to the north by the French speaking (except for Quebec) country of Canada. On the other side of the Atlantic are the Kingdom of France and the republic known as the British Commonwealth.

[Nosb]

NOSB:

Once when the USSA came up on the old board it was about the same time as someone mentioning the Madison Constitution, which would appearently allocate the number of seats in Congress bsaed on the wealth of the individual states and I suggested that that would be a place to start for a socialist America:

If wealth is the determining factor in an individual state's representation and therefore power in Washington then the state government is going to be very keen to keep the source of that wealth, the workers, producing said wealth. Strikes could easily be totally illegal and any attempts to organise labour unions would crushed before they could start. It could also be that the state governments wouldn't want their workers moving from their home state to another state, (and therefore decreasing the home state's overall wealth), restrictive laws or manipulation of the houseing market could tie people to the place where they were born/work. In short virtual labour serfdom.

David:

Try the Expansionist Party of the United States


Thanks. Actually I'm currently writing a ATL called America Divided (http://www.alternatehistory.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=130) and I might use that.

[tom]

I want the Dominion British to win by the closest margin reasonable with their still holding America now. Make them shiver at how likely a USA was...then if I ever meet one, he's more likey to believe where I come from!

[Knight Of Armenia]

Ahh, Vinland. The land that never was... I personally think a Norse America, started early enough, would allow the Natives to still exist. A crash course in civilization up to the Middle Ages isn't as difficult to achieve as a crash course into the Industrial Age. If the Skraelings had adopted iron-working and horses from the Norsemen, and had spread these, they would have been able to do much in the next millenia; when the Norse eventually became Christian, the Skraelings could easily have followed suit. Imagine a Vinland Republic with a very good portion of its population being Natives.

[Faeelin]

The option that doesn't exist: Hansa america. German colonists in the high middle ages mix it up with flemish settlers, italian traders, muslim refugees in south america, the spanish, and stumble their way towards the free air of the continent.

[Tyr]

Well the Dominion would be the best place, Vinland would be interesting though it is unlikely.

[Landshark]

In an attempt to bump this topic a bit more imaginatively than just writing bump:

As stated above the North American Union is an OTL version of the European Union: a doazen or more indepenent nations ranging from republics to monarchies and speaking English, Spanish, French or some other language rather than a single large English spaeking republic on the US model.

So the question is who would be the member states?

[Straha]

*hopes that Cherokee,creek,iroqois,german,russian,chinese and mayan are some of the languages in the NAU*

[Landshark]

Okay then, based on past threads I'd New England, Texas, a Spanish speaking California and a Mormon republic/theocracy somewhere out west.

[Grey Wolf]

In an attempt to bump this topic a bit more imaginatively than just writing bump:

As stated above the North American Union is an OTL version of the European Union: a doazen or more indepenent nations ranging from republics to monarchies and speaking English, Spanish, French or some other language rather than a single large English spaeking republic on the US model.

So the question is who would be the member states?

Oo, there's an interesting idea :) Maybe one could have Dutch or Swedish colonies, depending on when we have the POD

Grey Wolf

[Landshark]

Oo, there's an interesting idea :) Maybe one could have Dutch or Swedish colonies, depending on when we have the POD

Grey Wolf

I'd been going on the idea of the USA breaking apart after the revolution after the consitrutional congress failed but it works just as well with an earlier POD. For places like New Sweden and New Holland to last you'd need Britain to be occupied elsewhere in the world though wouldn't you?

[Grey Wolf]

I'd been going on the idea of the USA breaking apart after the revolution after the consitrutional congress failed but it works just as well with an earlier POD. For places like New Sweden and New Holland to last you'd need Britain to be occupied elsewhere in the world though wouldn't you?

If the Glorious Revolution is less successful, leading to a series of real dynastic wars ?

Or if the Restoration is more difficult and destabilising ?

Not sure when those others' colonies vanished ?

Grey Wolf

[Landshark]

I thought I'd give one of my oldest threads a bump to see if any newbies are interested or if anyone else gets inspired.

[Archangel Michael]

Nation--Date of Membership (Language)
United States of America--1789 (English)
Republic of New England--1789 (English)
Federal Republic of America--1789 (English)
Republic of Louisiana--1813 (French and Spanish)
United Republic of Florida and Cuba--1823 (Spanish)
Republic of Texas--1839 (English)
Republic of California--1849 (Spanish)
Holy Mormon Emprie of Desert--1856 (Mormon*)
Confederated Union of Mississippi--1867 (English)
Union of American Tribes--1876 (various)
Federal Republic of Dakota--1887 (English)
Republic of Yucatan--1899 (Spanish)
Union of the Caribbean--1917 (Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, French, and English)
Republic of Nicaragua--1931 (Spanish)
Federal Republic of Labrador--1934 (English)
Dominion of Canada--1941 (English and French)
Republic of Alaska--1941** (English and Russian)

*-A mixture of English, Latin, and French
**-The Republic of Alaska didn't exist from 1946 to 1994. During that time, the Republic of Alaska was an exile government in Washington, D.C., and the government of Alaska was the People's Republic of Alaska.

[G.Bone]

oh well....thought the NAU was the NAU from Turtledove's novel...

[Mike Collins]

Dont know which one is my favorite. I do know which one I like the least. That would be Dominion of North America. That would make the USA a bigger and climatically warmer Canada!!! Oh, yuck!! Would someone put me out of my misery???

[edvader]

NAU. I like the North America in Turtledove's TWO GEORGES,though.

[tom]

The French one was close...in fact, I tried to vote for it instead of the Dominion when I thought this was a new poll.

[edvader]

Try reading BACK IN THE USSA by Kim Newman. I believe I mentoned this elsewhere.Very interesting. I'd like the North America(?) of the PROBABILITY BROACH and sequels. Then I'm LIBERTARIAN! :cool:

[Tetsu]

I would pick the Republic of Vinland, simply for pure interesting material. I'd go to not only see what that country is like, but how the rest of the world turned out.

The French USA would be interesting, so long as it's just a mirror opposite, and of course we retain our American warlike instincts. :D If we got the French war ethic, we'd have been conquered by Mexico long ago.

But I would go for the Vinland republic. Like someone said before, there's a good chance some native nations survived. Perhaps Vinland is bordered to the south by Azteca? :D

[Straha]

I would pick the Republic of Vinland, simply for pure interesting material. I'd go to not only see what that country is like, but how the rest of the world turned out.

The French USA would be interesting, so long as it's just a mirror opposite, and of course we retain our American warlike instincts. :D If we got the French war ethic, we'd have been conquered by Mexico long ago.

But I would go for the Vinland republic. Like someone said before, there's a good chance some native nations survived. Perhaps Vinland is bordered to the south by Azteca? :D
why not Azteco? I'll make a map for the NAU earth....

[fhaessig]

Though, I think the PoD has to be around 1610.

Maybe a possibility in 1685, but that is stretching it.

[Tetsu]

why not Azteco?

Because I think Azteca sounds better. :D

[Leo Caesius]

Azteca's the Spanish form, isn't it? It's closer to the original Nahuatl, which was, IIRC, aztecatl.

Azteco sounds like a good name for an oil company.

[fhaessig]

The French USA would be interesting, so long as it's just a mirror opposite, and of course we retain our American warlike instincts. :D If we got the French war ethic, we'd have been conquered by Mexico long ago.


Try learning some history, will you?

[Tetsu]

Try learning some history, will you?

It was a joke. Note the smiley?

[Tetsu]

Azteca's the Spanish form, isn't it? It's closer to the original Nahuatl, which was, IIRC, aztecatl.

Azteco sounds like a good name for an oil company.

Actually, I believe they called themselves the Mexicatl, which is where "Mexico" comes from. I honestly don't know who coined "Aztec", but it was, I think, a reference to "Aztlan", or the somewhat mythical place the Aztecs originated from. (Speculated to be southern to central Texas).

[Leo Caesius]

Actually, I believe they called themselves the Mexicatl, which is where "Mexico" comes from. I honestly don't know who coined "Aztec", but it was, I think, a reference to "Aztlan", or the somewhat mythical place the Aztecs originated from. (Speculated to be southern to central Texas).

I've read that it means "one who comes from the place of the cranes;" áztatl means crane in Nahuatl, apparently.

[fhaessig]

It was a joke. Note the smiley?

Some jokes get VERY old around this Board :(

[Tetsu]

I've read that it means "one who comes from the place of the cranes;" áztatl means crane in Nahuatl, apparently.

Yeah, that sounds about right. "Aztlan" would mean "the place of the cranes", so I guess I was right about that one ;)

More on topic, what kind of POD could get the "Republic of Vinland"? A Norse king sending a dedicated colonization effort? What extent of land would it cover? (I imagine it being OTL Quebec, Ontario, the Maritimes, and New England.)

[Tetsu]

Some jokes get VERY old around this Board :(

Well, I'm sorry for being offensive.

[Admiral Matt]

"Why not Azteco?"

Because there never was a nation that called itself Azteca, Azteco, or for that matter even Aztec. The word Aztec was first applied to the Nahua Mexica (the people you are referring to) in the 19th century by a German historian. It's based on Aztlan, the name of the legendary northern homeland of the - here it comes - MEXICANS.

For the last time (yeah right) it's Mexica, not Aztec. Aztec is a made up word!

[zoomar]

My initial gut reaction was to vote for the Dominion since I'm such an Anglophile. However, the idea of a North America with several equally powerful nations and other smaller states with radically different histories eventually merging into one lose EU-style union is quite interesting. Here are mine:

Vinland. A small scandinavian-sytle republic in OTL Newfoundland descended from the original norse settlements. Vinnish-Icelandic language

The Republic of Quebec and Acadia. Large and fairly powerful French-speaking republic in OTL Quebec and Ontario

Angleterre d'Amerique. A former English colony occupying most of OTL New England, now a French and English speaking autonomous territory ruled from Quebec.

Nieuhaven. Dutch Speaking republic in parts of OTL New York and Pennsylvania

Scania. Tiny Swedish Speaking principality on OTL Coastal NewYork with surprisingly powerful economy

The Virgina-Carolina Codominion. Large and powerful English speaking dual monarchy occupying much of OTL USA deep south

Louisiana. French speaking republic occupying much of OTL Louisiana Purchase. The largest and most powerful member of the NAU

Huron. Nominally independent French-speaking American Indian confederation occupying much of the OTL great lakes region

THe Empire of Mexico. Large spanish-speaking monarchy occupying most of OTL Mexico prior to 1836 except Yucatan. Greatest population in NAU, but economically weak.

Yucatan. Mayan speaking republic - a former Mexican province which achieved independence in Maya revolt of 1866

Alaskaleutia. Russian and Aleut speaking federal republic occupying much of OTL Alaska and western Canada.

Central American Union. Spanish-Speaking OTL central american republics

[Leo Caesius]

The word Aztec was first applied to the Nahua Mexica (the people you are referring to) in the 19th century by a German historian. It's based on Aztlan, the name of the legendary northern homeland of the - here it comes - MEXICANS.

I would have thought that it was earlier than the 19th century, considering that it appears in Charles Cullen's (1787) translation of Francisco Saverio Clavigero's Storia antica del Messico (1780) - he uses the term Aztecas to describe them. I don't have the original handy so I can't tell you if it was in the original Italian, although I'm betting it was. In any case, I'd be surprised if Cullen was the originator of this term. Do you mean to tell me Fray Bernardino de Sahagún never once uses the term Aztec? I was under the impression that he was the one who gave the language that name in his descriptions of it.

[chrispi]

My own Tory America AH lies somewhere between the Dominion of North America and the North American Union. I have an Empire of North America, which became the Union of North America as Emperor William V produced no heir. There is also a Jeffersonian republic of Louisiana which is essentially a Cajun Texas, and of course the Empire of Mexico.

In ATL monarchies are the norm and republics (Switzerland, Louisiana, San Marino) are the exception.

[zoomar]

I would have thought that it was earlier than the 19th century, considering that it appears in Charles Cullen's (1787) translation of Francisco Saverio Clavigero's Storia antica del Messico (1780) - he uses the term Aztecas to describe them. I don't have the original handy so I can't tell you if it was in the original Italian, although I'm betting it was. In any case, I'd be surprised if Cullen was the originator of this term. Do you mean to tell me Fray Bernardino de Sahagún never once uses the term Aztec? I was under the impression that he was the one who gave the language that name in his descriptions of it.

You are quite right about the historicity of the term Azteca for the Mexica people. However, it is reasonable to assume that a term based on the more common Mexica would probably become the name of any possible continuation of an independent "Aztec"-ruled state into the modern era. But who knows?

[Admiral Matt]

"I would have thought that it was earlier than the 19th century, considering that it appears in Charles Cullen's (1787) translation of Francisco Saverio Clavigero's Storia antica del Messico (1780) - he uses the term Aztecas to describe them. I don't have the original handy so I can't tell you if it was in the original Italian, although I'm betting it was. In any case, I'd be surprised if Cullen was the originator of this term. Do you mean to tell me Fray Bernardino de Sahagún never once uses the term Aztec? I was under the impression that he was the one who gave the language that name in his descriptions of it."

Well don't I feel silly.

Still, no nation tracing its history to the Aztecs would call itself Azteca. That term was only popularized by the need to differentiate the native empire from the 'modern' nation descended from it.

Which isn't to say that the nation there would necessarily be called Mexico. In fact, given the fragile nature of Mesoamerican empires, it would probably be called something else depending on which group was in power when the region finally stabilized after its encounter with European technology and culture. Huaxtecatl, Tlaxcatl, who knows?

[Windsor]

I'd go for the North American Union, though I prefer a strong United States. Possible members:

Central America
Hispaniola
California
Baja California
Oregon
Yukon
Niagara
Deseret
Wasatch (Smaller Deseret, no Mormons)
North Mexica
South Mexica
Floridia
Louisiana (Purchase)
New England
Maine
Vermont
Potomac
Delaware
Roanoke
Virginia
Carolina
Quebec
Nunavut
Nauvoo
Saskatchewan
Kanata
Vancouver

Feel free to make fun of me.