The Race leaves home earlier

[Fenwick]

In HT worldwar series Atvar makes a comment about how he was glad the conquest fleet left when it did. For back on Home those in charge of overseeing the build up of the invasion fleet (IE: construction schedules, budget commitees, how much to be spent on what, etc) a few wished to wait another ten or twenty years, then send the fleet out in cold sleep.

Well my question is this what if the Race decided to leave ten, twenty or thirty years prior to thier orginal date and prepared accordingly?

[Darkest]

I think that the Race would conquer the world, pushing opposition into strongly held cities. Because they wouldn't want to use nukes, they would continue to send soldiers, but the cities would hold out, adopting a very military-ruled culture. The Race would eventually bomb them out with explosives dropped from the air.

The areas under the Race would suffer from extreme occupational problems. Humans would continue to fight them, for years and years, maybe someday ridding themselves of their oppressor like in Half-Life 2. But then the Colony Fleet would arrive, bolstering their ranks, and humans would eventually fall to the Empire. That's my opinion, however.

[Zor]

How many soldiers are in the conquest fleet? The Colonization Fleet had about Eighty Million males and females of the Race, and it was stated that the Conquest fleet was smaller than the Colonization fleet as well as allways being at the disadavantage numberwise in there battle against the "Big-Uglies". So how many Lizard soldiers are there?

Zor

[NomadicSky]

I've never read Turtledoves race series how did the race treat humans?
When do they come to earth? What do they change? Are they humanoid?

[Psychomeltdown]

I've never read Turtledoves race series how did the race treat humans?
When do they come to earth? What do they change? Are they humanoid?
I thought the colonization fleet was about 200 million. Sam Yeager asked one of he captives and was amazed at the number.

The conquest fleet was probably a couple of million. Say 10 million in all. I would say about 2 million actually fighting.

the Race's treatment of humans was basically We conquered you. Now you obey us. They were cruel not intentionally, but logically. There was no burning passion to kill off humans or enslave them, but more of a "This is inevitable" kind of thing.

I think they come form Tau Ceti, They're lizard like creatures. Small, scaly, and having turreted eyes and tailstumps. They arrive in 1942 and basically conquer all the world besides, Russia, Germany, and the USA. Japan, Britain, Canada, etc are left alone mainly because they're islands and Canada is too cold fro them.

Though one of the few things that stood out was Atvar's thinking of letting millions of people in India die by not helping them, for there was a famine in the nation caused by the importation of Race plants which were killing off India's own agriculture. Atvar's thinking was that there were so many humans, why not let a large chunk of them die off so that the numbers would even out.

[NomadicSky]

So almost all of Europe is under nazi rule
Did they still kill the Jews or use them as soldiers?

[robertp6165]

In HT worldwar series Atvar makes a comment about how he was glad the conquest fleet left when it did. For back on Home those in charge of overseeing the build up of the invasion fleet (IE: construction schedules, budget commitees, how much to be spent on what, etc) a few wished to wait another ten or twenty years, then send the fleet out in cold sleep.

Well my question is this what if the Race decided to leave ten, twenty or thirty years prior to thier orginal date and prepared accordingly?

If they arrive ten years earlier, it is 1932. Humanity is not in full war-production mode, tank and aircraft tech are significantly more primitive, and nuclear research is just getting started. Mankind has very little chance.

If they arrive or 30 years earlier...1922 or 1912...the situations are even worse. One interesting scenario might be if they arrive at the height of World War One. The Race still wins, of course, but they would have a significant fight on their hands, at least for a short while.

[GBW]

They arrived in Earth orbit around late December 1941 and they launched their invasion on May 30, 1942, the day of the first Thousand Bomber raid by the British against Cologne and three days after Heydrich was assasinated in Prague.

So it's what if they had possibly arrived on those same dates in 1932, 1922 or 1912?

[robertp6165]

I thought the colonization fleet was about 200 million. Sam Yeager asked one of he captives and was amazed at the number.

Nope. It was 80 million. Which is quite enough for Sam Yeager to be amazed about.

The conquest fleet was probably a couple of million. Say 10 million in all. I would say about 2 million actually fighting.

I think probably that is about right.

the Race's treatment of humans was basically We conquered you. Now you obey us. They were cruel not intentionally, but logically. There was no burning passion to kill off humans or enslave them, but more of a "This is inevitable" kind of thing.

For the most part, the Race seems to have let humans in the areas they conquered go on living relatively normal lives. The main change is that humans have no political freedom.

[Psychomeltdown]

Nope. It was 80 million. Which is quite enough for Sam Yeager to be amazed about.

Really 80 million? For some reason I thought it was 200 million :confused:


But yeah, no real changes in occupied lands, beyond being in control. I would have thought they'd strip the areas clear of moveable wealth. ;) But they seem strangely non material, even though it shows a few of them are pretty greedy.

[Forum Lurker]

I think a more interesting turn of events would be the Race arriving at the tech level they thought they would be, in the medieval period. Obviously, they'd succeed in conquering militarily; we'd then get to see how humans developed when they realized that, while their conquerors had vastly superior technology, they couldn't innovate worth a damn.

[Psychomeltdown]

I think a more interesting turn of events would be the Race arriving at the tech level they thought they would be, in the medieval period. Obviously, they'd succeed in conquering militarily; we'd then get to see how humans developed when they realized that, while their conquerors had vastly superior technology, they couldn't innovate worth a damn.
Yeah, but then humanity wouldn't be fighting against the Race Opressors. Instead they'd be conquered completely and assimilated easily. What weapons they had would have been like magic to the peoples of the world at that time.

though it would see that N. America wouldn't be wiped out by diseases. I doubt the Race would be setting up colonies of humans across the world.

[NomadicSky]

For the most part, the Race seems to have let humans in the areas they conquered go on living relatively normal lives. The main change is that humans have no political freedom.
So the race are like republicans...
Seriously though you said native americans would not be wiped out by diseases
The race are from another world wouldn't they bring diseases that would kill humanity and human diseases would kill the race?
That is what I never understood about startrek they collected food on worlds humans had never been to as well as just jumping off the ship like it was earth

[Psychomeltdown]

Seriously though you said native americans would not be wiped out by diseases
The race are from another world wouldn't they bring diseases that would kill humanity and human diseases would kill the race?

Nope. No diseases either way. Race don't catch human diseases, humans don't catch race diseases. Though the Race seems to be lacking in sickness from what i've been reading. Unless Turtledove glossed them over, they don't seem to get sick or slow as they grow older... Atvar's still the same form the first book to the last, and he was about 60 earth years older.

[Fenwick]

If they arrive ten years earlier, it is 1932. Humanity is not in full war-production mode, tank and aircraft tech are significantly more primitive, and nuclear research is just getting started. Mankind has very little chance.

If they arrive or 30 years earlier...1922 or 1912...the situations are even worse. One interesting scenario might be if they arrive at the height of World War One. The Race still wins, of course, but they would have a significant fight on their hands, at least for a short while.

One question I have is would it be really that hard to take over the colonies and such? Most of the world was under the control of Europe at the time so would it be trading one conquerer for another?

The western front would be taken quickly. I mean it is basically troops in straight lines on either side of a 100 meter strip of land. There wasn't a serious military presence away from the front. I think it would be rather funny to hear the conversation as to way the humans are in trenches and not moving forward.

The Eastern front could take awhile. The troops more spread out, and lets not forget the winter that banes the Race so.....

Oooooh Pancho Villa leading Mexican forces to fight the alien invaders.

[Zor]

The Race did suffer to a degree from tropical fungus in the Jungle (they are desert creatures), though it was far from there worst setback.

Zor

[Forum Lurker]

Yeah, but then humanity wouldn't be fighting against the Race Opressors. Instead they'd be conquered completely and assimilated easily. What weapons they had would have been like magic to the peoples of the world at that time.

though it would see that N. America wouldn't be wiped out by diseases. I doubt the Race would be setting up colonies of humans across the world.

Conquered completely, yes. Assimilated easily, not so much. Given that many human groups retain sufficient cultural identity to rise violently against their imperial masters when those groups A) are the same species, B) are often of similar ethnicity, and C) sometimes even have extremely similar cultural inheritance, I can't imagine that humans would ever be nice, peaceful Tosevites acting like members of the Race. The biological gaps alone would render it impossible.

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Nope. No diseases either way. Race don't catch human diseases, humans don't catch race diseases. Though the Race seems to be lacking in sickness from what i've been reading. Unless Turtledove glossed them over, they don't seem to get sick or slow as they grow older... Atvar's still the same form the first book to the last, and he was about 60 earth years older.
The Race on Home also seems to have a disease called "the purple itch". It seems that the Race's big-box stores sell sympathy purple itch sympathy cards, and saying "I hope you come down with the purple itch" is something a profanity. I still think it would be a great name for a human STD.

[mattep74]

But what if the race landed in medieval times or earth before 1900. Would we humans gladly be part of the empire or would riots occur now and then against the lizard rule? And what about engineering, would the earth society be stagnant like the lizards expected or would the humans try to make everything better?

and yes, i am reading the series again

[MrP]

The western front would be taken quickly. I mean it is basically troops in straight lines on either side of a 100 meter strip of land. There wasn't a serious military presence away from the front. I think it would be rather funny to hear the conversation as to way the humans are in trenches and not moving forward.


Well, not quite. I'm yet to read up on the Allies. Finding a book on the French is almost like finding a book on diamond testes! However, the Germans were encouraged to launch local counter-offensives, and had several lines of reserves. The best way for the Race to eliminate them without suffering severe casualties would be to use airpower and never engage. Is this a feasible proposition? I've not read the books.

[Leej]

One thing to consider- the earlier we get the easier time the race has conquering humans yes. But could they not also have a harder time in assimilating us and keeping us conquered?
People were far more religious the earlier we get into the 20th and 19th centuries, the general populace would see the race as devils.
I don't see humans ever being assimilated into the race.
Hell you could probally even see the formation of secret societies to keep alive the fire of revolution until the race least expect it when we have all their technology.

[Fenwick]

Going back to the trench warfare thing a few landcruiser brigades could end the war. Yes there was mulitple lines, and deep entrenchments, but what if after a little recon the Race simply went from Behind the German and Allied lines?

Plus how much good will machine guns and rifles be against APC's, Tank's, and jets fighters. Don't think helicopters would do well at the front with so many AA's around. Heck maybe Atvar simply takes over the capitals and cuts the supply lines.