West Germany I.S.O.T.

[NomadicSky]

Janurary 1, 1984
All of West Germany (without west Berlin) is transported to January 1, 1914
How does this change the world?

[NomadicSky]

Here is Europe January 1, 1914 after the isot

[Fearless Leader]

IMO Initial confusion would probably lead to a compromise between Bonn and the Kaiser with a constitutional monarchy being installed if not a full democracy. Germany becomes the most advanced nation on the planet and quickly diffuses tensions in Europe.

Franz Ferdinand is not assassinated, thus no WWI and A-H goes through a number of democratic reforms to hold it together. The Ottoman Empire too goes through a number of reforms and begins to thrive again using its vast untapped oil reserves.

Meanwhile multinational forces in Germany go back to their respective countries and begin to bring them up to speed.

[NomadicSky]

Anyway here is a map I started working on but I've decided to stop and I'm going to post what I have
after a few years even though there isn't a world war europe is still changed...

[Swede]

^how long after the Event would that be?

The two things I notice are Alsass-Lothringen being given to France (why?) and the dissmemberment of Russia (if no Great War, what triggers it?).

[Romulus Augustulus]

IMO, Alsace-Lorraine is rightfully French. No offense...the French gained it in the 1700s, but then it was stolen in the Franco-Prussian War by the Germans.

And yes, I do have a pro-French bias. Still, I think that the reason Alsace would go to France is because of the Franco-German rapprochment in the 1950s...I'm fairly sure West Germany would be content to let Alsace-Lorraine go to France. Besides, they didn't even want to be German...

No offense again.

[Swede]

Ignoring who has the historical claim (i.e. simplifying the issue:p) I can't see Germany standing in the way of the will of the locals as expressed in a referendum...

/offense? uh, take offense at what? :)

[Ramp-Rat]

Just one small point.How why did Island get divided, Home Rule yes I can see that, hopefully the administration wont make the same mistakes. As for Cyprus in 1914 it was part of the British Empire, I just dont see London
handing it over to the Ottomans. Other than that good luck with your idea.

[NomadicSky]

Germany and nato forces move throught Europe to stop ww1.
The Republic of Germany finds itself far to diffrent to unite with the 1914 German Empire. The German Empire becomes the Kingdom of Prussia. West Germany becomes simply known as Germany.
Alsace-Lorraine is ceded to France and Danish speaking North Schleswig is ceded to Denmark. Austria-Hungary is disolved the two nations become very democratic nations. Italian speekin Trent is annexed by Italy. The rest of Austria forms a multi-ethnic constituional monarchy. Bosnia, Dalmatia and Herzegovina are federated together to form a multi-ethnic Republic Bosnia-Dalmatia-Herzegovina simply known as Bosnia. Serbia and Montenegro form a federal constitutional monarchy. Ireland is given home rule. Russia still has a red revolution (the white forces win in this timeline however many states break away from Russia) Galicia becomes part of the new Republic of Poland. Poland doesn't invade it's neighbors this time although the Ukraine threats to invade Poland when Poland incorporated Ruthenia into its nation.
Here is a better map of Europe in 1924

[NomadicSky]

I gave the Ukranian speaking part of Galicia to Poland

[Neroon]

IMO, Alsace-Lorraine is rightfully French. No offense...the French gained it in the 1700s, but then it was stolen in the Franco-Prussian War by the Germans.


So if i conquer something from you its rightfully mine and if you conquer it back from me that's stealing?
Actually you are right. Thats exactly the case with almost all territorial disputes throughout history. Whoever kept until now is the rightful owner and those who held it for a while where thieves and agressors.

[Imajin]

I think West Germany, which did (and still does) claim to be the entire government of Germany, would take over all of the remaining German Empire, except for North Schleswig and Alsace-Lorraine. Maybe as some consolation to Wilhelm II he becomes a Constitutional Monarch with no power? The Federal Empire of Germany manages to persuade Austria to do the same, and it becomes the Austrian Empire again, but with a federal democratic constitution. Popular revolutions in Russia force it to become a Federation.

[NomadicSky]

I just love making maps

[schrammy]

altough thinking that a democratic germany might do this i being a german my self do not agree with the statments above.

here is what think what would happen.

Janurary 1 to 3th general wide spread confusion in all of europe as every one is trying to find out what happens.

4th of Janurary troops of the kaiser cross the border into west germany and meet with no resistance what so ever.

5th and 6th of Janurary the bundestag is still in a crisis meeting when the bundeswehre coup them and sieze power and swear loyalty to the kaizer.

with in the next 2 to three weeks the rest of west germany is brought under control and the kaisers goverment has managed to resotre order.

there are 2 factors here that aid this development of things.
1st the kaisers germany ignaranse, they don't know about time travel nor do they know about alternate universes and such stuff to them this is probarly seen as a kind of rebelion at least in the beginning and so they procede to crush opposision and restore order.

2nd we germans never where realy fond of democrasy and may of us still aren't that much into democracy and our present day army most probarly atleast the generals would like to restore germany to an at least local [European] military superpower

[NomadicSky]

Didn't want control from the east they could quickly destroy 1914 forces 1984 forces would mop the floor with their 1914 counterparts

[Neroon]

altough thinking that a democratic germany might do this i being a german my self do not agree with the statments above.

here is what think what would happen.

Janurary 1 to 3th general wide spread confusion in all of europe as every one is trying to find out what happens.

4th of Janurary troops of the kaiser cross the border into west germany and meet with no resistance what so ever.

5th and 6th of Janurary the bundestag is still in a crisis meeting when the bundeswehre coup them and sieze power and swear loyalty to the kaizer.

with in the next 2 to three weeks the rest of west germany is brought under control and the kaisers goverment has managed to resotre order.

there are 2 factors here that aid this development of things.
1st the kaisers germany ignaranse, they don't know about time travel nor do they know about alternate universes and such stuff to them this is probarly seen as a kind of rebelion at least in the beginning and so they procede to crush opposision and restore order.

2nd we germans never where realy fond of democrasy and may of us still aren't that much into democracy and our present day army most probarly atleast the generals would like to restore germany to an at least local [European] military superpower

No you're not. You're either a German hating troll or got more self - loathing for your country than Michael Moore for his. BTW: Your English sucks so you might actually be German.

[Imajin]

No you're not. You're either a German hating troll or got more self - loathing for your country than Michael Moore for his. BTW: Your English sucks so you might actually be German.
Michael Moore hates America? I thought he only hated the Republicans and a large chunk of the Democrats?

[schrammy]

No you're not. You're either a German hating troll or got more self - loathing for your country than Michael Moore for his. BTW: Your English sucks so you might actually be German.

well i am a german and compared to yours yes my english probarly sucks, as would prpbarly your german compared to mine :cool:

i just wanted to point out that not every one and every culture are so fond of deomcracy as some people here are is that so hard to believe :confused:

btw do you realy think that in this situation most people wouldn't be verry tempted to take advantage of this situation and correct things that they might have felt went wrong in history :confused:

of course this is wild fantasie and fiction and no one could realy tell what would happen but insulting some one just because he has an diffrent opinion instead of discussing it is rude to say the least. :mad:

[Halnzder Kverldak]

i just wanted to point out that not every one and every culture are so fond of deomcracy as some people here are is that so hard to believe :confused:

btw do you realy think that in this situation most people wouldn't be verry tempted to take advantage of this situation and correct things that they might have felt went wrong in history :confused:




Indeed, that is because they do not have the whole picture and they do not think much outside their boxe.

And off course, they would take advantage of the situation... :)

[sikitu]

First of all, as a German, I am ashamed about the comments made by schrammy.

Secondly, they are not based on facts.

Schrammy, do you know how many NATO troops were in West Germany in 1984, together with all kinds of sophisticated weapons, including nukes? Do you really think the Bundeswehr of 1984 would take over the government? And if they tried, do you think the US, British and French troops and other NATO partners would let them do it?

Finally: Even if some Germans might be looking for new glory, I sincerely doubt that in 1984, a KAISER would gain enough popular support, especially one like Wilhelm II who was really incompetent in politics.

[schrammy]

well i am sorry if you feel insulted/ashemed by what i have said but diffrent people think diffrently and this is and always has been so for every nation germany being no exception.

and of course you are right about the many nato troops.

they just kind of slipped my mind :eek:

i feel verry ashamed now eswell for forgetting those.

[Halnzder Kverldak]

Here is Europe January 1, 1914 after the isot

well, without the influence of EU and US, Washington`s orders, the civilian west german governement would collapse and the army assume power.
Imperial Eastern Germany is soon enought disgusted by the degeneracy and decadence of western society...
They tell the French "concerning Alsace-Lorraine, please f***-off!".
The Nato armys are divided, some want to go home and others stay because they want TV, cars, working medecine etc, without commands, without modern industry for modern weapons(missiles, fuel for jeeps and aircraft etc) they are powerless if they go back, western germany holds them by the balls with an iron grippe...
Others are enthusiastic about regime changes in europe, 1984 british soldiers swear allegiance to the queen once back in england, others flee back to france but the americans can`t go back to the US, in face of such evolution the bundeshwehre mobilise to keep Nato armies, army unites takes controle of all tactical nuclear weapons located on German soil, they are helped by the 1914 army, some Nato unites refuse to give upp their tactical huclear weapons and fire them, the Bundeswerhe fire back with those under it`s controle, the use of nuclear weapons against a few german cities awake the German people, all the crap of the last 39 years of foreign domination is soon thrown down the drain. The Prussian armies help restaure order.
German nationalistes meets the Kaiser and give him advices about the futur, during that time, generale mobilisation have befallen uppon Europe.
The allied powers are not reliable, both Germanys mobilise their armies and industry.
Austria and the sudetlands are annexed, greater Hungarya crush Serbia with ease...
The allied power attack with all their might but the German response is devastating, in face of the new weapons, their armies desert entirely, Paris is occupied within 21 days, the second target is London, the city is seized, the british fleet defeated by bombers. With 1984 weaponery, the kriegsmarine become the strongest fleet in the world anywhay..
From Saoud Arabia the Ottomans pumps increased quantites of oil to the German economy, by early 1915 an oil pipeline goes from Baghdad to Berlin.
With the demonstration of German capabilities, the Czar have turned on German side, Russia is reorganised and modernised massively.
In juste a few years, railways stretched from the Rhure industrial regions to the siberian mines.
With 70 years of advance, the new German governement decides it is it`s duty to create a New World Order, bring the peoples of the world toward a better futur!
Inndeed, they are the moste advanced, civilised country of the world, they cannot leave the world to misery and opression!
By 1924, the Greater German Reich dominated the world economically and was military stronger than all the other world power put together, especially thanks to thermonuclear weapons, satellites, computers, air-fuelled bombes etc.
German suits offered to it`s soldiers complet protection from modern chemical warfare... That alone would be decisive in battle.
But in 1925, the UN was founded in Geneva, an organisation that succeded in stopping wars worldwide but that was due to it`s backing by the Bundeswerhe.
Not many contested that domination thought, especially with colour TV & cinema, cars, radios, intercontinental flight, cheape electricity and other futur wonders, the populations where rapidly growing optimistic about the futur, birth rate increased drastically.
15 years after the jumpe, Germany was much more wealthy than prior to the jump thanks to world trade.
Space exploration progressed faste and was extremly popular, in 1929 the Germans landed a man on the moon after having landed a firste probe in 1927...

[NomadicSky]

Your timeline sounds interesting Halnzder Kverldak, What is the world like when 1984 comes back around?
Do you have a map?

[Halnzder Kverldak]

Your timeline sounds interesting Halnzder Kverldak, What is the world like when 1984 comes back around?
Do you have a map?


Well i don`t know how to do for the map but what Germany annex south a small part of Slovenia, Trentin in Italia, the Sudetland, Austria, Luxembourg.
The change is in China where Mongolia, Tibet, Ouroumtski, Mandchoukou are made independent, the USA are dismantled by Germany, the shoutern states forms a new confederation, in the north, new-England becomes independent, same for the west coast that becomes know as California.
The populations of the colonies gain new rights and more independence toward their colonisers.
Less poiled, more thought minded, the empire Germans soon gets the upper hand over the newcomers. approximatively one generation later, the Prussians are again in control, the whole German army swear allegiance to the kaiser.

In 1984, spacecrafts fly within one hour from Paris to Tokyo, 2 miles long nuclear powered cargo zeppelins transport merchandise all over the world, from factories big as cities to giant futuristic megapols those skys are filled with millions of flying cars...
vaccum-metros under the populated areas. Genetical engineerig have supressed all sickness. The German military have installed enormous military bases in orbite around the Earth and on the Moon(a giant laser gun-space craft carrierd is named Battlestar Galactica) as rectangular shaped lead or gold hulled shipes moves toward Mars & venus...

[Imajin]

I had Germany annex all of the Austrian half of the Empire... How is this map?

[Halnzder Kverldak]

Good, Germany have an opening to the Adriatic sea.

[Halnzder Kverldak]

If some modifications would be possible, Quebec also becomes independent(U.N. decision), parts of the US east-coast are occupied, the Germans would certainly be keen in controling the Suez and Panama canals.

[NomadicSky]

Why dismantle the United States?Germay is way more advanced there isn't any point.

[Susano]

I think my IQ just droppeda dozen points after reading this thread.

Schrammy, du weißt ja was Mittermaier gesagt hat: "Demokratie heißt das alle ihre Meinung sagen können. Müssen sie aber nicht. Wenn man keine Ahnung hat, einfach ma die Fresse halten."

To RA's comments I simply roll my eyes, their folly is self-eviedneta d already has been pointed out.

[NFR]

I completely fail to follow why you decided to dismantle America and China (why China, in the name of God? They were no threat whatsoever to anyone apart from themselves in 1914. The partitions also make little sense - the south, maybe, but the only way to keep New England and California forcibly separated with USA is to physically make them for at least a generation. Even with modern technology(well, modernish) and German industry you will have logistical difficulties, and same goes for Manchuria, which was Han at that point, and large part of souther Mongolia, Gansu province which is Hui and Han and mysteriously annexed to Tibet (like they have a chance in hell of keeping a province with three times their population), and so on, and so on, and so on), but left Russia not only intact but actually help modernise her.

Must be because of the historically warm feelings people of West Germany and NATO personnel have for Soviet Uni... I mean Russian Empire.

Oh well. I ain't complaining...

Oh and you Germans, RA's comments were poorly phrased, but if Alsace-Lorraine felt as German as you seemed to imply (fuck the language, I am talknig about national consciousness, or are you gonna tell me the Irish felt very English in 1914 because they speak English?), why the need for the Germanization programmes? You know very well that it wasn't that simple, and the French-speakers and the German-dialect speakers criss-cross in Alsace-Lorraine, and there were many amongst the later who wished to remain with France.

[Susano]

Well, RA claims the Alsace was rightfully taken by France in the 17thc entury. Well, it wa sjust as rightflyl reconquered in 1871. RA simply uses an incosistent double judgment.

[NFR]

Well, RA claims the Alsace was rightfully taken by France in the 17thc entury. Well, it wa sjust as rightflyl reconquered in 1871. RA simply uses an incosistent double judgment.

I said it was poorly phrased, didn't I?

[Halnzder Kverldak]

Why dismantle the United States?Germay is way more advanced there isn't any point.

Revenge for US domination of western Germany prior to the event, also in 1914 the US is not a threate but since technology spreads faste and some US shipes and submarines along the coast of west germany have made it back to the US. It could be a local threate one day in the futur(exactly why the US didn`t want Saddam or Iran to have the bombe in "OTL"), also words of 1980s USA spreads to the US and many don`t like what they hear. For example, Shoutrons learn about desegregation and call for Germany against US domination. The US is enought fearefull of the new power to give upp the south even before Germany reacts in any way.
Californians discover it will actually be better off without washington. they want no pacific problems with Japan(before the formation of the UN), as for China, it`s more simply due to the butterfly effect.
This UN in opposite to "OTL"s UN is taken seriously, if they declare a country deserve independence, then they are obeyed.

Off course the Russian empire is in 1914 a backward country, the majority of it`s population are poor pesants, the Czar is better than the Suprem Soviet.

[NFR]

Revenge for US domination of western Germany prior to the event, also in 1914 the US is not a threate but since technology spreads faste and some US shipes and submarines along the coast of west germany have made it back to the US. It could be a local threate one day in the futur(exactly why the US didn`t want Saddam or Iran to have the bombe in "OTL"), also words of 1980s USA spreads to the US and many don`t like what they hear. For example, Shoutrons learn about desegregation and call for Germany against US domination. The US is enought fearefull of the new power to give upp the south even before Germany reacts in any way.
Californians discover it will actually be better off without washington. they want no pacific problems with Japan(before the formation of the UN), as for China, it`s more simply due to the butterfly effect.
This UN in opposite to "OTL"s UN is taken seriously, if they declare a country deserve independence, then they are obeyed.

Off course the Russian empire is in 1914 a backward country, the majority of it`s population are poor pesants, the Czar is better than the Suprem Soviet.

The Californians want no Pacific problems with Japan? Japan in 1914 wasn't even close to challenging American power on the Pacific. And even if they were, how did cutting off ties with USA help? The only conceivable reason would be then they won't be forced to go to war. Why?

If so, this UN is idiotic and just draw random lines on the map. Manchuria was already Han, and Tibet and Mongolia was mysteriously given land that's predominantly Han. This was when Finland and the Baltics and the Poles get to remain a part of the glorious motherland. OH well, don't let me stop you. Clearly it is the will of God that those be benevolently ruled by Great Russia.

And you still haven't explained why you'd want Russia modernized. If you fear Soviet power (sort of weird thing to do, but hey), all you have to do is to send in the New and Improved German Army over when and if the civil war starts. If you think a modernized Russia would be a cute little puppy, well, you are wrong, that's all I am gonna say.

[Max Sinister]

OK, let's see.

At first, we'll have to assume that the ASBs somehow calm the people too, otherwise many might have a psychological shock, and after all, we rather want them to do realpolitik.

German chancellor in 1984 is Helmut Kohl, who is a historian.

At the beginning, Germany will encounter economical problems: Their economy needs a lot of oil and gas and other materials - most of which have to be imported. It might be even possible that they need more than the world production of 1914! Pipelines existing in 1984 are cut off, and Germany's modern ships might not fit into old harbors in other countries. Of course, since they can sell the most sophisticated goods on earth, Germany will be able to pay for the provided goods and start a combined boom in oil, gas and other raw materials. Scientists might become demotivated - who needs to do actual science if you can get far more sophisticated ideas from the nice Germans?

Now about politics. Helmut Kohl wasn't a genius in economics (otherwise, things in Eastern Germany would be better today), but he always knew how to become good friends with the heads of other countries (except Maggie Thatcher. And he never had to deal with royal autocrats, too.) Wilhelm II, of course, might feel insulted to accept that fat bumbling guy as an equal. (Of course, if the Bildzeitung [biggest German tabloid] decided to poke into his private life, he might have to resign soon... especially if those people who suspected him to be a closet homo/bisexual were right...) Thus, we might see West Germany siding with France and Britain against Prussia! Maybe areas like Thuringia and Saxony (who voted mostly for the Social Democracy) might decide to leave the kaiser alone and join West Germany.

About Alsace: During the 43 years when it was German many French actually left to France, while Germans went there. Maybe Helmut Kohl decides to give them a special status, being a buffer state between France and Germany? (Actually, quite tricky, since it officially belongs to the Reich.)

[NomadicSky]

and to keep Germany from taking over the planet...The United Kindom without Northern Ireland Just the British home island is sent from January 1,1984 to January 1,1914 they arrive along with West Germany

[Halnzder Kverldak]

and to keep Germany from taking over the planet...The United Kindom without Northern Ireland Just the British home island is sent from January 1,1984 to January 1,1914 they arrive along with West Germany

Well, then the british would try to attack and controle Germany before it becomes too strong. Margaret Thachter, mistress of the world...:eek: :eek: :eek:

[DarkSlavik]

What about west Germany's claims across the Oder-Neisse Line?

[Romulus Augustulus]

Well, RA claims the Alsace was rightfully taken by France in the 17thc entury. Well, it wa sjust as rightflyl reconquered in 1871. RA simply uses an incosistent double judgment.

I have a pro-French bias. And the residents of Alsace-Lorraine didn't want to be in Germany...trust me on that. Several primary accounts I've read, including a complete guide to Alsace, dating back to 1918, mention the way the residents of Alsace-Lorraine really didn't want to be part of Germany. It's a moot point, now, though...Alsace-Lorraine has been French for sixty years now, and it'll stay that way.

[Imajin]

Alsace-Lorraine has been French for sixty years now, and it'll stay that way.
Not after the rise of the Andorran Empire...