A world next door?

[Count Dearborn]

Have you ever seen these shows or movies?
The Valley of Gwangi
The Land of the Lost (Both Versions)
The Valley of the Dinosaurs
The Lost World (The versions based on the A. Conan Doyle Story)
The Land that Time Forgot
The People that Time Forgot

Or read the comics that contain these these two locations?
Dinosaur Island (DC)
The Savage Land (Marvel)

All of these stories contain places were dinosaurs, both known and unknown, and other extinct fauna, both known and unknown still exist. What if, instead of them being hidden enclaves of extinct fauna, they are really overlaps with an alternate earth where there was no dinosaur extinctintion, and evovlutionary stasis exists. There are reminants of advanced societies, magic exists, a dinosaurid tribes abound, all manner of high tech gadgets exist, and many types of cavemen war with each other and the other creatures.

[Darkest]

I like the idea better of 'pocket dimensions' with small, self-contained worlds in each that can be accessed through supernatural means from Earth.

What would we do when we discovered eight pocket dimensions full of dinosaurs, ripe for colonization?

[Count Dearborn]

nah, think it is a world unto itself. The pocket dimensions were chronicaled by Burroughs and Verne, and they put them under the crust of the earth.

[Melvin Loh]

Well guys OTL we already have rumours of leftover dinosaurs in places like the Congo with MOKELE MBEMBE, and KONGAMATO in southern Africa, not to mention the likes of Nessie and other supposedly reptilian lake monsters, and even the Thunderbird thruout America, some reports of which indicate its pterosaur-like appearance. I've even read about instances of rock carvings in caves in the American southwest of creatures resembling T-Rex.

Man, it would be very interesting in the cases you've described, if us humans could colonise these lost worlds and domesticate and utilise these dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures as beasts of burden and war, forms of entertainment, and even food.

[Count Dearborn]

The Valley of Gwangi takes place in northwestern Mexico; in the first Land of the Lost, the Marshalls were on vacation in the Grand Canyon, I think is was the same for the Porters in the second; and one of the versions of The Lost World had the plateau in Africa. Nessie and the other lake monsters could be from this worls, as they have found and use natural portals that exist in their lakes; this kind of ties into my natural portal thread.

[Max Sinister]

Why call them pocket dimensions? They're mostly isolated valleys and like that... OTOH, they must be pocket dimensions, because there's no valley big enough to sustain a livable dinosaur population, esp. not many different species.

[Count Dearborn]

They are really on another Earth, that just happens to overlap with ours. At least that is how I see it.

[Count Dearborn]

Resurrection

[MrP]

Mm, so are the various storylines true rather than fantasy in this TL? i.e. Do we have bands of roving Victorian gentlemen paddling up the Amazon to acquire diamonds from the blue clay near the Pterosaur nests? :)

[Count Dearborn]

The idea is that Maple White Land, the Valley of Gwangi, Caspak, and others are really portals or overlaps into a parallel earth where prehistoric fauna, known and unknown still exist. When Challenger & Company get to Maple White Land, they go though a portal to another earth.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

-First, consider the idea that you would suddenly have something that would help support the Creationist viewpoint of the universe. With the dinosaurs co-existing on a parallel plane of existence from humanity, the entire fossil record can be explained away as being a time when the world was once overrun by the "World Next Door" (e.g. Darwinia by Robert Charles Wilson)....

-Second, consider that on a disease level, you have a potential threat to all of humanity. Consider that according to paleontologist Robert Bakker, author of The Dinosaur Hypothesis, one of the main causes of extinction could have been a biological disease. Consider that in 65 milllion years, there will be diseases that would have evolved which we may not have prtection against in OTL....

-Third, consider that you could also find the world militarily and politically fighting to gain some control of the situation in the ATL. Consider that the political situation in most stories describe a political hierarchy that is often based on high-priests, totalitarian dictators, and authoritarian monarchies, with no semblance of parliaments, courts, or independent political opposition. Most of the time, the governmments are even more repressive and archaic than most Middle Eastern states....

-Fourth, consider that the human societies in the stories are often controlled by slavery, a misogynistic treatment of women, eugenics philosophy, human sacrifice, capital punishment, and brutal tortures. Consider that this would become an immediate issue with groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch....

[Romulus Augustulus]

My idea: experiment at CERN goes horribly wrong, some kind of dimensional gateway, fairly small, to another world, opened (think one of those tiny bunched-up little extra dimensions interfered with during a freak particle reactor accident...unexplained weirdness follows...) means to replicate effect found, major governments and a few major corporations exploit this for R&D purposes...

I mean, come on! A United States Crosstime Command would be really cool! If more such events were precipitated and openings became common, I'd very much like to see the paramilitary unit charged with killing the beasties that came through and caused trouble.

[luakel]

They are really on another Earth, that just happens to overlap with ours. At least that is how I see it.
Well, that could happen, whether they're pocket dimensions (small replicas of ours from a frozen moment in time) or actual parallel universes (that are next to us on the vibratory "scale")...

[Kidblast]

My idea: experiment at CERN goes horribly wrong, some kind of dimensional gateway, fairly small, to another world, opened (think one of those tiny bunched-up little extra dimensions interfered with during a freak particle reactor accident...unexplained weirdness follows...) means to replicate effect found, major governments and a few major corporations exploit this for R&D purposes...

I mean, come on! A United States Crosstime Command would be really cool! If more such events were precipitated and openings became common, I'd very much like to see the paramilitary unit charged with killing the beasties that came through and caused trouble.

Sounds like something out of Stargate SG-1.

[Romulus Augustulus]

Sounds like something out of Stargate SG-1.

Nah. It was inspired more by those Marines that storm Black Mesa in Half-Life 1. The Hazardous Environment Combat Unit, I think.

If such incidents really became a problem, I've got no doubt Blackwater, etc. would branch out into this field...

[Count Dearborn]

My first post says it all, I was inspired by those movies, the two comic book settings, and the comic title Section Zero.

There would be civilizations on this world. One I would see is Inca/Aztec/Mayan inspired with super-science and magic. Another would be run by a race of saurian humaniods.

[Romulus Augustulus]

My first post says it all, I was inspired by those movies, the two comic book settings, and the comic title Section Zero.

There would be civilizations on this world. One I would see is Inca/Aztec/Mayan inspired with super-science and magic. Another would be run by a race of saurian humaniods.

Well, let's figure out several worlds, shall we...

One would have non-human sentient races, where for some reason magic would work. There would still be humans, though, but also elves, dragons, etc.

Another would be a surviving Roman Empire world. Self-explanatory.

Another would be a globe-spanning Mongol Khanate world. Self-explanatory.

Et cetera. This is present day, no?

[Mr_ Bondoc]

-Consider that every major religious organization from the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormon Church of Latter-Day Saints, to the Church of Scientology would immediately send missionaries to the ATL in an effort to convert the natives, who are often portrayed as polytheistic societics who worship their volcanoes or demand human sacrifices....

-Consider that you also would have a sudden resource for cheap petroleum, natural gas, and other mined resources. Consider that you have increased the natural resources of the planet 200%. As such, imagine the shock as the price of gas drops to $0.50/ per gallon. The shock to the international stock market would be tremendous....

-Consider that you also now have the threat of mutations. Consider that according to the The Land that Time Forgot series by Edgar Rice Burroughs, the Weiroo were mutants who were originally humanoids, who suddenly, within 2-3 generations, developed winged forms, often assaulting and raping Gal-Lu women to spread their spawn. The fact that they continue to mutate should be frightening....

[Romulus Augustulus]

-Consider that every major religious organization from the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormon Church of Latter-Day Saints, to the Church of Scientology would immediately send missionaries to the ATL in an effort to convert the natives, who are often portrayed as polytheistic societics who worship their volcanoes or demand human sacrifices....

-Consider that you also would have a sudden resource for cheap petroleum, natural gas, and other mined resources. Consider that you have increased the natural resources of the planet 200%. As such, imagine the shock as the price of gas drops to $0.50/ per gallon. The shock to the international stock market would be tremendous....

-Consider that you also now have the threat of mutations. Consider that according to the The Land that Time Forgot series by Edgar Rice Burroughs, the Weiroo were mutants who were originally humanoids, who suddenly, within 2-3 generations, developed winged forms, often assaulting and raping Gal-Lu women to spread their spawn. The fact that they continue to mutate should be frightening....

The main non-human sentients I have envisioned are the result of a POD quite a while back. In addition to primates ascending to sentience, imagine cetaceans and surviving shell-squids building a seaborne civilization. Oh, and parrotfish-like sentients you have a very hard time understanding...yes, homage to the Orz, my most favorite alien race EVER...

[Mr_ Bondoc]

The main non-human sentients I have envisioned are the result of a POD quite a while back. In addition to primates ascending to sentience, imagine cetaceans and surviving shell-squids building a seaborne civilization. Oh, and parrotfish-like sentients you have a very hard time understanding...yes, homage to the Orz, my most favorite alien race EVER...

Consider the fact that as a given rule, sentient species will often engage in brutal acts of genocide and brutality in an effort to obtain the primary seat at the top of the food-chain (see the West of Eden series by Harry Harrison) . As such, the fact that you have no less than 4 species competing for dominance for the same ecosystem means that you will have a continual never-ending cycle of violence. As such, this means societies that are extremely xenophobic and extremely distrusting. Also consider that they will all be at different stages of technology, with the most advanced scientifically at the top of the food chain. The idea of the different species at the same level of technology is ASB territory...

[Romulus Augustulus]

Consider the fact that as a given rule, sentient species will often engage in brutal acts of genocide and brutality in an effort to obtain the primary seat at the top of the food-chain (see the West of Eden series by Harry Harrison) . As such, the fact that you have no less than 4 species competing for dominance for the same ecosystem means that you will have a continual never-ending cycle of violence. As such, this means societies that are extremely xenophobic and extremely distrusting. Also consider that they will all be at different stages of technology, with the most advanced scientifically at the top of the food chain. The idea of the different species at the same level of technology is ASB territory...

Hmm...so, any ideas as to what level the societies would be technologically? My idea? There's the stem world on which the competing species evolved, and then as it got really fierce, they discovered portals to other worlds and moved into them...

Do you think it is possible that they could take different paths of technological development (i.e. conventional tech, extremely advanced biotech, magic development, bio-tech integration, etc.) and that although they took very different approaches, they were all equally effective solutions to the same problem?

[Count Dearborn]

Here's a twist, what if the "Dinosaur World" is a dimensional crossroads. The various tribes and peoples are actually from different worlds, and let's say that they spend a certain amount of time there. The "Dinosaur World" overlaps into these other worlds, plus the places on the "Victorian World".

There a square mile of the Congo that opens into this world; a plateau in Venezuela; a hidden valley in along the Colorado River, somewhere in Grand Canyon; a square mile of jungle in the Yucatan; a stangely warm island in the Arctic Circle, near Greenland; a strangely warm valley near the northern coast of Antartica; and a remote, uncharted island, in the southern Pacific.

[Romulus Augustulus]

Here's a twist, what if the "Dinosaur World" is a dimensional crossroads. The various tribes and peoples are actually from different worlds, and let's say that they spend a certain amount of time there. The "Dinosaur World" overlaps into these other worlds, plus the places on the "Victorian World".

There a square mile of the Congo that opens into this world; a plateau in Venezuela; a hidden valley in along the Colorado River, somewhere in Grand Canyon; a square mile of jungle in the Yucatan; a stangely warm island in the Arctic Circle, near Greenland; a strangely warm valley near the northern coast of Antartica; and a remote, uncharted island, in the southern Pacific.

Well, those could be the "interface points," (I think that's a name that's MORE than nifty enough!) but you'd still need to use some kind of "transfer device" to cross. It would be much, much easier (can you say several orders of magnitude less energy required for transfer there than elsewhere?) than in other places, but you would not neccesarily need to go there. It's just that going there is the smartest proposition, since it's cheap and efficient and much safer.

[Count Dearborn]

Well, those could be the "interface points," (I think that's a name that's MORE than nifty enough!) but you'd still need to use some kind of "transfer device" to cross. It would be much, much easier (can you say several orders of magnitude less energy required for transfer there than elsewhere?) than in other places, but you would not neccesarily need to go there. It's just that going there is the smartest proposition, since it's cheap and efficient and much safer.

What if the antediluvian civilizations built device(s) that allowed portals to open up a given intervals?

[Romulus Augustulus]

What if the antediluvian civilizations built device(s) that allowed portals to open up a given intervals?

I don't think they'd remain functional for THAT long...

Although the basic operating principle behind the devices (what enabled them to tear the fabric of space-time a new asshole...I'm guessing they'd probably resemble the unholy bastard spawn of a stargate and the Large Hadron Collider, as would everything based off of them, although for a plot device, let's make the humans be much more innovative than the Ancients and eventually miniaturize...) would be reverse-engineered after the remnants were found (relics w/ info...) I kind of don't like the idea for some reason...

[Count Dearborn]

How about a nexus point? Places where magnetic anomalies exist. Perhaps some Victorian genius works up a device that allows portals to be opened. Can't forget natural portals that are created by tidal forces.

[Othniel]

-Consider that you also now have the threat of mutations. Consider that according to the The Land that Time Forgot series by Edgar Rice Burroughs, the Weiroo were mutants who were originally humanoids, who suddenly, within 2-3 generations, developed winged forms, often assaulting and raping Gal-Lu women to spread their spawn. The fact that they continue to mutate should be frightening....
Ah the Weirroo...the Gal-lu (rope men), aren't they more 'evolved' then us, and are the only ones capable of baring childern the mammialian way in Caspak? (Gal-lu males evolved beyond facial hair, which normal humans have, putting us between the Gal-Lu and the previous evolutionary stage)

Also don't the Weirroo consist entirely of males, which is why they steal the females of the Gal-lu? And their entire culture is built upon murder,(to having the point of a city made completely of skulls painted blue) thus are they not self controling in population? That is one culture I wouldn't mind taking Straha's method of dealing with, if they weren't so close to the Gal-lu...

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Hmm...so, any ideas as to what level the societies would be technologically? My idea? There's the stem world on which the competing species evolved, and then as it got really fierce, they discovered portals to other worlds and moved into them...

Do you think it is possible that they could take different paths of technological development (i.e. conventional tech, extremely advanced biotech, magic development, bio-tech integration, etc.) and that although they took very different approaches, they were all equally effective solutions to the same problem?

Unfortunately the answer is no. Consider that in Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond, there are two problems. First, consider that you still are limited in the amount of resources and how they are used. If a magician has to use 5 ultra-rare items in order to conjure a thunderstorm, consider that he will easily get runover by the pilot with silver iodine which is very common. Consider that you have a warfare situation wherein all sides would try to counteract each others technology. The minute they fall behind, they lose, end of story (e.g. Cold War)...

[luakel]

Well, let's figure out several worlds, shall we...

One would have non-human sentient races, where for some reason magic would work. There would still be humans, though, but also elves, dragons, etc.

Another would be a surviving Roman Empire world. Self-explanatory.

Another would be a globe-spanning Mongol Khanate world. Self-explanatory.

Et cetera. This is present day, no?
There are infinite worlds on the 3rd Dimensional Plane, so there's no need to constrict ourselves to three. And while those worlds could and most likely do exist, they seem somewhat bland and unoriginal...

[Romulus Augustulus]

Unfortunately the answer is no. Consider that in Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond, there are two problems. First, consider that you still are limited in the amount of resources and how they are used. If a magician has to use 5 ultra-rare items in order to conjure a thunderstorm, consider that he will easily get runover by the pilot with silver iodine which is very common. Consider that you have a warfare situation wherein all sides would try to counteract each others technology. The minute they fall behind, they lose, end of story (e.g. Cold War)...

Hmm...so, given the psychological differences (I have to stop assuming everyone runs the same OS) and other factors, four sentient, excuse me, sapient technological civilized species on the same world is not likely.

How's about they originate on one world, then for the most part move out to a number of other worlds, using the world that links those four worlds, the world they originated on, as a battleground?

Or we could scrub that entirely and just have one or two civilizations per world. I'd still like to work an Orz-like race in there somewhere...

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Hmm...so, given the psychological differences (I have to stop assuming everyone runs the same OS) and other factors, four sentient, excuse me, sapient technological civilized species on the same world is not likely.

How's about they originate on one world, then for the most part move out to a number of other worlds, using the world that links those four worlds, the world they originated on, as a battleground?

Or we could scrub that entirely and just have one or two civilizations per world. I'd still like to work an Orz-like race in there somewhere...

Consider that the minute you have two civilizations on a world, the more advanced race will either enslave or destroy the other race. If you have them come from different worlds, it may provide a temporary buffer preventing the slavery or genocide option, at least for some measure of time (c. 1-2 generations, c. 0-25 years)....

[luakel]

Consider that the minute you have two civilizations on a world, the more advanced race will either enslave or destroy the other race. If you have them come from different worlds, it may provide a temporary buffer preventing the slavery or genocide option, at least for some measure of time (c. 1-2 generations, c. 0-25 years)....
Why would this be true everywhere? Surely there are worlds where the races can peacefully cooperate with each other...

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Why would this be true everywhere? Surely there are worlds where the races can peacefully cooperate with each other...

Consider that contact between races, even under the most benign Star Trek conditions, will inevitably cause a shake up in the socio-political structure of societies. Consider the books Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe or The Quiet American by Graham Greene. In both novels, the intial contact between two civilizations is relatively benign. Unfortunately, with revelations of religion, politics, and race suddenly overturn the many traditional beliefs and practices of the traditional and less technologically advanced society. The minute that the questions begin, the society (e.g. Native American, Sub-Saharan African, Southeast Asian, et al.) collapses on the basis of additional social pressures.

[Othniel]

Consider that the minute you have two civilizations on a world, the more advanced race will either enslave or destroy the other race. If you have them come from different worlds, it may provide a temporary buffer preventing the slavery or genocide option, at least for some measure of time (c. 1-2 generations, c. 0-25 years)....
Unless you force a symbosise, or limit them to a condition which the other can't handle. As long as they fill different niches the chance for conflict goes down...

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Unless you force a symbosise, or limit them to a condition which the other can't handle. As long as they fill different niches the chance for conflict goes down...

Unfortunately there are several things that prevent such a peaceful resolution of the inter-species conflict:

-First, consider that there are only a limited amount of natural resources which can be used for food, water, fuel, and territory. Consider that based on this little problem, there has only been less than 300 years of peace in the 15,000 years of recorded history of humanity....

-Second, consider that technological progress, much like evolution often demands the increasing sophistication and diversity of resource usage. Consider that 150 years ago, there was almost no market for natural gas and petroleum, yet today, modern society would collapse without this resource...

-Third, a society can only survive based on the ability of a people to feed and sustain its population. In its earliest stages, this means the raising of livestock and domestication of animals. Later this means the development of defense technology to protect the populace and its food supply (e.g. steel, gunpowder, et al.). Finally it becomes a race in regards to increase production of food staples, transport them to market, and to preserve them for future usage.

As such, anything that interferes with the three points, historically has been the initial cause of major conflicts around the world....

[Othniel]

Unfortunately there are several things that prevent such a peaceful resolution of the inter-species conflict:

-First, consider that there are only a limited amount of natural resources which can be used for food, water, fuel, and territory. Consider that based on this little problem, there has only been less than 300 years of peace in the 15,000 years of recorded history of humanity....

-Second, consider that technological progress, much like evolution often demands the increasing sophistication and diversity of resource usage. Consider that 150 years ago, there was almost no market for natural gas and petroleum, yet today, modern society would collapse without this resource...

-Third, a society can only survive based on the ability of a people to feed and sustain its population. In its earliest stages, this means the raising of livestock and domestication of animals. Later this means the development of defense technology to protect the populace and its food supply (e.g. steel, gunpowder, et al.). Finally it becomes a race in regards to increase production of food staples, transport them to market, and to preserve them for future usage.

As such, anything that interferes with the three points, historically has been the initial cause of major conflicts around the world....
Ah, but if one race is weaker in certain enviroments than anouther, would that not lead to that area being dominated by that species? Or if it has a limited type of food source, like Pandas would it not be dependant on the areas that grow that type of resource? If you have an insectavore and a herbavore species(non-insectiod) using different resources does that not deter from intial conflict? Say the herbivore species has to grow fruit, while the insectivore's prey is repelled by that fruit, or a certain weed that grows along with that fruit? Say the insectivors are better built for lands which are dominated by conferious trees, while the herbivores are drawn to more open fields...

Also if the society is one that has better longevity, does not need to multiple as much, and has no predators, or at least the abillity to defend themselves from Predators, within a less dense area than humans, would that not allow for the eco-system to retain a certain amount of balance to deter from natural resources running out?

Or what about creating a mutally symbotic realship between two races? One could almost say that male and female are an example of this, but we could go with the more convential usage of the term...

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Ah, but if one race is weaker in certain enviroments than anouther, would that not lead to that area being dominated by that species? Or if it has a limited type of food source, like Pandas would it not be dependant on the areas that grow that type of resource? If you have an insectavore and a herbavore species(non-insectiod) using different resources does that not deter from intial conflict? Say the herbivore species has to grow fruit, while the insectivore's prey is repelled by that fruit, or a certain weed that grows along with that fruit? Say the insectivors are better built for lands which are dominated by conferious trees, while the herbivores are drawn to more open fields...

Consider the problem that environmental conditions constantly change. Consider that an advanced society will have a relative diversity of different food sources. Consider that food resources within more primitive societies are more subject to the whims of the change in the weather. As such, consider that the Roman Empire, could equip, feed, and arm their troops at the farthest corners of the Empire. As long as they could maintain this infrastructure, they had the strategic advantage over the neighboring tribes. This is all about the idea of projection and maintenance of power...

Also if the society is one that has better longevity, does not need to multiple as much, and has no predators, or at least the abillity to defend themselves from Predators, within a less dense area than humans, would that not allow for the eco-system to retain a certain amount of balance to deter from natural resources running out?

Consider that these closed societies resemble the Native American and Sub-Saharan African tribal societies. For those groups they face several problems. First a reliance on agrarian resources means the a society that is almost always on the verge of collapsing due to the drought/flood meteorlogical cycles within an area. Consider that these societies have no impetus to develop their technology and are easily conquered by more technologically advanced societies without mercy....

Or what about creating a mutally symbotic realship between two races? One could almost say that male and female are an example of this, but we could go with the more convential usage of the term...

Actually according to most sociobiologists, the closest thing to a symbiotic relationship that humans share with another species is the canine. Consider that even then, there is no one who would ever say that dogs share an equal partnership in the development or technological level of society. Also consider that in many Third World nations (e.g. the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand), the dog is still considered a possible food source...