'Wehrmacht' tank development post WW2

[Theodoric]

I know this is all a tad strange, but bear with me.

Imagine a world where a successful 'Valkyrie' was carried out in 1943, the Nazis were all removed from power, and after a few years *Germany joins a NATO-analogue to oppose the Soviets, who have grabbed all of Eastern Europe. This means that there isn't much in the way of a halt in military activity and development; perhaps a few years as part of treaties and economic restructuring. Yes, I know this is all quite unlikely, but in the context of this TL I'm working on it's a bit more believable.

How would their tanks develop? Would the *Germans simply buy American tanks, or upgrade or build their own ones? Would they still use their own 8.8 CM KwK 43 guns and the like?

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[Gridley]

Ignoring everything else and simply looking at the gear, no, they would not buy American. They didn't IOTL wherever they could avoid it despite a much lower level of military independence.

For some ideas (with models, no less!), look here:
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/wehrmacht-%2747-micro-armour-tanks.html

And for the full line, here:
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/military-models-wehrmacht-world-war-ii-micro-armour.html

[Theodoric]

Well, those are the fancy giant tanks made up by Nazi Megalomaniacs. While they looked impressive, they were hardly realistic. I mean, even the Tiger II was pushing it's technology to the limit, which it crossed more often than not.

Still, thanks for the link. :)

[Gridley]

Take a look at the Panther IIF and/or the E-50. I'd expect a surviving Germany to produce at least a limited run of something like the E-75 too.

Admittedly, not so much the Maus or the E-100. :-}

[historyfool]

They would of course build their own tanks as Germany did in otl as early as possible. The E-series shows the direction into which the development would probably have gone, although without an ongoing war some of the different models would be gone especially the heavy E-100. Focus would probably be on the E-50 as MBT with the lighter E-25 for reconnaissance and some E-75s as heavy tanks. A short overview of the E-series can be found here: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/entwicklung-series-standard-series.htm#eseries
Depending on the nature of your anti-communistic alliance the calibres of the weapons might be standarized and (if the USA are part of the Alliance) probably follow mostly US standards.

[Gridley]

Depending on the nature of your anti-communistic alliance the calibres of the weapons might be standarized and (if the USA are part of the Alliance) probably follow mostly US standards.

Actually, a SERIOUS anti-communist alliance might well wind up using German calibers. The Germans had MUCH better tank guns than the US. Since their industrial base was destroyed and their in-stock levels near zero after WWII they weren't a candidate to become NATO specs. Absent such destruction... note the M1 Abrams uses a German-designed main gun IOTL.

[Color-Copycat]

Admittedly, not so much the Maus or the E-100. :-}

Party pooper... :p

[Gridley]

Party pooper... :p

Sorry, even in ASB situations I try to inject doses of reality.

This can be a real problem in RPGs. :-}

[CalBear]

Maus, House, who cares?

I want the RATT!

[Gridley]

Maus, House, who cares?

I want the RATT!

Try Warhammer. ;-)

[historyfool]

Reading a bit about the E-series the planned gun for the E-75 often is a 105mm KwK - the same caliber as the later Royal Ordnance L7 which was/is among other used in the Centurion, the Leopard1, the M60 and early Abrams-models- therefore a 105mm standard calibre seems probable from the 50s onward

[BlairWitch749]

The Panther F with the Kwk 44 ultra high velocity 75mm gun would probably have been the next logical progression (especially since technocrats would be in charge as opposed to Hitler people who loved the propaganda effect of larger weapons)

there is no reason to go to anything larger than 75mm till at least the 60's since the KwK 44 (especially if the americans provide high quality alloys for the ammo) could penetrate the T-54 at normal battle ranges anyway, plus it keeps the weight down

[Stanton49]

Tiger, Tiger II, E100, Maus would have all seen an immediate stoppage. For the duration of the conflict constantly improved Panthers would have been the focus of production. After the war I look to see a redone design of E50 with aspects of Panzer VII Lowe design. E75 is a big maybe but if the Soviets are making JS-3 and 4 then more likely (some damage to the Soviet Union's industrial base, assuming a post '43 German victory, might mean Soviets only focus on 1 tank type). I think the Es stay the mainstay of the Wehrmacht till the late 50's, early 60's and then you get something very much like the Leopard I as a replacement.

[Theodoric]

Thanks guys, your insights are very useful.

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Tiger, Tiger II, E100, Maus would have all seen an immediate stoppage. For the duration of the conflict constantly improved Panthers would have been the focus of production. After the war I look to see a redone design of E50 with aspects of Panzer VII Lowe design. E75 is a big maybe but if the Soviets are making JS-3 and 4 then more likely (some damage to the Soviet Union's industrial base, assuming a post '43 German victory, might mean Soviets only focus on 1 tank type). I think the Es stay the mainstay of the Wehrmacht till the late 50's, early 60's and then you get something very much like the Leopard I as a replacement.
This is what I was thinking. I also happen to have a bizarre love affair with the E-50. Not sure why. But I have always wondered how it'd compare to the immediate postwar tanks like the Pershing and early Pattons, or the T-54. Also, there is one design I have heard of that is probably the most enigmatic of all, to the point where I have no idea if it was a real idea or not. The Schwarzwolf. I've heard the SS were wanting their own tank that was to have all these special high-tech features among which were a 10cm version of the PAW 600, an anti-tank gun that used the high-low pressure system.

[Michel Van]

the Entwicklungs Serie in detail
New Tanks series proposed in 1942
E = Entwicklungs development (the number is weight in metric tons)

E5 Light AFV or radio controlled tank
E10 Light tank destroyer, replace the Panzer 38(t)
E25 Reconnaissance tank, medium tank destroyer
E50 Medium tank to replace the Panther, Tiger I (50 tons)
E75 Heavy Tank to replace Tiger II and Jagdtiger (tank destroyer)
E100 Super heavy tank like Maus

The E-serie had be simpler, cheaper and more efficient than their predecessors
because with there inter-changing parts and simpler production
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entwicklung_series
http://germansecretweaponsnazi.devhub.com/img/upload/eseriesdf.jpg
http://germansecretweaponsnazi.devhub.com/blog/524195-e100-ausf-b/
http://germansecretweaponsnazi.devhub.com/blog/595755-e-series-redux/

[machine3589]

Tiger, Tiger II, E100, Maus would have all seen an immediate stoppage.

Is there really any reason to stop the Tiger II? Heavy tanks were still in service until the 1970.-ties in some cases.

[Michel Van]

Is there really any reason to stop the Tiger II? Heavy tanks were still in service until the 1970.-ties in some cases.

yes, even durnig the War !
the Tiger II had a to complex mechanic, because it was to heavy it engine used too much fuel.
allot Tiger II were not destrod by Allies, but simply abandon by there Crew because they had run out of fuel!
General Patton consider the Tiger II as "the best Roadblock i ever seen"

the E75 Heavy Tank (or SS Schwarzwolf?) had to replace the Tiger II

about SS Schwarzwolf project is very littel know
it start Feburary 1945 as Daimler Benz-SS Joinventure for new tank destroyer
approximately 2 months Daimler Benz work on it.
then in the end of War, the SS stop the project and destroy thorough all papers about it.

[machine3589]

yes, even durnig the War !
the Tiger II had a to complex mechanic, because it was to heavy it engine used too much fuel.

Fuel consumtion and weight is kind of a universal problem when it comes to heavy tanks, and its a problem Germany had even with the Panther and would probably have with the E-50. Not a good enough reason to cancel the Tiger II.

[abc123]

Sorry for offtopic, but, let's imagine scenario like this:

NATO accepts Stalin's proposal for reunifiation of Germany in turn for neutrality of Germany.
So Germany becomes a big Finland.

How would German Army, Navy, Air Force look like? Would Germany revive their aircraft industry?

[historyfool]

Fuel consumtion and weight is kind of a universal problem when it comes to heavy tanks, and its a problem Germany had even with the Panther and would probably have with the E-50. Not a good enough reason to cancel the Tiger II.
The Germans would certainly carried on building heavy tanks, but without an ongoing war they can replace the Tigers with a more reliable (and easier to produce) post-war design. And the E-series was designed to have as many interchangeable parts between the different types as possible, making logistics way easier.