Germany cancels jet development, focuses on piston engines?

[KyleB]

Let's say that in 1941 the RLM gets fed up with the slow progress of jet engine development and postpones jet engine/aircraft development indefinitely.

Instead they focus on building the DB 604, Argus 413 and Jumo 222 piston engines, and issue a new specification for Germany's next air-superiority fighter, powered by a single powerful piston engine driving contra-rotating pusher propellers, with tricycle landing gear and four MK108 cannon in the nose. It enters service in early 1944. Also, production and development of the Do 217, He 111, and He 177 is stopped so that the Bomber-B program can be completed.

Any thoughts?

[erich von changstein]

Germany is screwed even if they do that because even if they get that plane it does not change the fact of the bombing.

[Xgentis]

It won't change the outcome of the war.

[KyleB]

Germany is screwed even if they do that because even if they get that plane it does not change the fact of the bombing.

Of course Germany is still going to lose the war, but I was wondering what are the repercussions, and how this changes the course of the war...

[Xgentis]

Jet fighter came mutch later.

[KyleB]

Jet fighter came mutch later.

The Me-262 program commenced very early but was delayed by engine difficulties.

The Me 262 actually first flew as a prototype in 1941, albeit with a piston engine.

[Xgentis]

The Me-262 program commenced very early but was delayed by engine difficulties.

The Me 262 actually first flew as a prototype in 1941, albeit with a piston engine.
I mean after the war sorry. Jet fighter will come mutch later since there will be no captured german jet fighter.

[Cook]

Jet fighter came mutch later.



Britain developed the jet engine parallel to Germany, with the Gloster Meteor becoming operational in 1944. Frank Whittle not only invented the turbojet engine before the Germans, but his design was more mechanically reliable.

[Das_Colonel]

Germany's next air-superiority fighter, powered by a single powerful piston engine driving contra-rotating pusher propellers, with tricycle landing gear and four MK108 cannon in the nose. It enters service in early 1944.
Any thoughts?

Almost sounds like your looking for a Do335

[KyleB]

Almost sounds like your looking for a Do335

Do 335 was twin-engined, one in front and one in back.
Besides I'm wondering if something similar to this could be developed sooner, with all the benefits from having a powerplant-free nose.

[Cook]

Jet engines run on kerosene, so didn’t suffer the fuel shortages that grounded the rest of the Luftwaffe by the way; something to remember with an all piston engine air fleet.

[danderson]

Britain developed the jet engine parallel to Germany, with the Gloster Meteor becoming operational in 1944. Frank Whittle not only invented the turbojet engine before the Germans, but his design was more mechanically reliable.

Centrifugal flow compressors have the problem that they need to get wider to get more, umm, compression. This leads to wider fuselage and more drag.

I dunno how much research was being done on axial flow compressors in the west. Germany was all about them though. So worse case scenario, western fighters get a little fatter for longer.

[KyleB]

Jet engines run on kerosene, so didn’t suffer the fuel shortages that grounded the rest of the Luftwaffe by the way; something to remember with an all piston engine air fleet.

Hmm, can you clarify on that and provide sources?

The Me 262 suffered from drastic fuel shortages too. Often the problem was not that there was no fuel, but that the infrastructure to move the fuel to the Luftwaffe's airfields was wrecked, and that the omnipresent danger of fighter-bombers meant that any serious attempt to move fuel from the factories where synthetic fuel was made to the airfields resulted in a gigantic ball of flames.

[Cook]

Hmm, can you clarify on that and provide sources?

Actually they may have been omnivorous with regard to fuel, I’ll see what I can dig up.

Cal should be along shortly to sort this out anyway.

[Riain]

It would be very short sighted to not develop the next step in fighters in order to develop a piston fighter that will only be marginally better than the ones on the drawing board. Keep in mind that in 1941 nobody could have forseen that jet engines would take quite so long to perfect, or that the war would turn against Germany quite so badly. Perhaps they could have been ready in 1943, or perhaps the war could have turned out a bit differently and Germany controlled more territory and resources in late 44.

[Astrodragon]

Centrifugal flow compressors have the problem that they need to get wider to get more, umm, compression. This leads to wider fuselage and more drag.

I dunno how much research was being done on axial flow compressors in the west. Germany was all about them though. So worse case scenario, western fighters get a little fatter for longer.

The British were developing them in parallel. They decided at the time that the centrifugal engine was better (at that stage of development), and they were probably right.

[Faralis]

The British were developing them in parallel. They decided at the time that the centrifugal engine was better (at that stage of development), and they were probably right.

Yep, more or less same output ( a bit more powerful IIRC ) but much more reliable, Germans had to change the engines after 100 hour of use ( and sometimes it was even worse ...)

[The BigI]

Centrifugal flow compressors have the problem that they need to get wider to get more, umm, compression. This leads to wider fuselage and more drag.

I dunno how much research was being done on axial flow compressors in the west. Germany was all about them though. So worse case scenario, western fighters get a little fatter for longer.


The British went for centrifugal for the meteor over axial because Sir Frank Whittle didn't think that Britsh industry wouldn't be able to produce the refined metals for axial flow engines. The F.2 Freda which was a flyable test bed used on a lancaster bomber had a higher thrust than the jumo 004c and it was flying in 1941. The main issue with centifugal is that technolgically it was a dead end, 1st and 2nd gen centrifugal were more/as powerful as the same axial flow but that would be the most you could really push centrifugal tech while you can with axial. Axials engines used "exotic" material hard to get during a world war, the German's could have made more reliable jet engines but they would have had to curtail u-boat production...so it depends on what you think is more important I suppsoe.

Also a lot of people think that the Germans were much more advanced than the Britsh because they were flying jets sooner, but realistically that was only because the Germans were desperate for a war winner and push the B-17 and B-24's out of the sky fortunately the Britsh didn't have that issue as shown by the late 40 and 50's where the British jet engines were the best in the world.

[BlairWitch749]

German late war piston engine fighters like the ME-109 series K and the FW-190 D where already very competitive anyway. The whole reason jets where attractive to Germany was that they offered a (potential) MASSIVE increase in performance which they thought could be a multiplier to make up for their hyper numerical inferiority

this pod doesn't change much... maybe some elements of wing design get pushed back a few years but the time line would merge with otl by 1955 more or less

[Michel Van]

it not only the RLM fault
one Major Problem was Hitler him self
He demanned that Jet-Fighter Me 262 are produce as Jet-BOMBER !

the other Major Problem was Reichsmarschal Göring chaotic ruel over RLM
he hate the innovative Do 335 design (also BLOHM & VOSS aircraft Design)
wat cornier Göring consider as "that no Aircrafts, but delusional idea of maniacs"

Next to that was RLM catastrophic pilot training or better the lack of it
at end of war they try put non-skilled glider pilots in He 162 Jet-Fighter
wat even experiencing Test Pilots consider as "it is merciless on Pilot-error"

BMW, Mercedes, Junkers had extrem problems on R&D of new Aircraft engines
the lack of vital raw materials like titan, manganese, chromium, vanadium, and tungsten
constant change at RLM demands, lack of resources, man power and engineer
play also an important consideration

[wiking]

My understanding of the problem of jet engines was the lack of necessary rare metals that did not deform under intense heat like that generated by a jet engine. It was that need that set back designs somewhat, as they tried to design them in a way so as to not need these metals as much. The results of course were marginal at best.

[BlairWitch749]

My understanding of the problem of jet engines was the lack of necessary rare metals that did not deform under intense heat like that generated by a jet engine. It was that need that set back designs somewhat, as they tried to design them in a way so as to not need these metals as much. The results of course were marginal at best.

That was an element of the problem, the lack of strength in the engine blades lead to creep where they would become unservicable after 25 hours of flight and require replacement

but the 262 had a lot more problems than that

1. The landing gear was atrocious, (there where teething problems building an undercarriage for a plane that was going 125mph at touchdown) the tires would burst and collapse the undercarriage, usually wrecking the aircraft
2. The engines where extremely slow to build up thrust, prone to surging, stalling, catching fire, and indeed out and out failure... and this was not an easy plane to fly on one engine even if you had experience in asymetric flight from the JU-88 or the ME-110
3. The frame wasn't particularly well built enough to handle very high true air speeds... so when the fellow would go too fast in a dive (if he could break out of it without crashing into the ground) the frame had a strong tendancy to get over stressed, rendering the aircraft unservicable
4. The armament despite its weight, was short ranged (ie the tail gunner in a B-17 could shoot and hit from a longer distance than the 30mm cannons on the ME-262)
5. It wasn't manueverable at all
6. It needed long hard metal runways, so its operating bases where easy to spot and destroy from the air
I could throw out a few more, but you get the idea, it was generally a failed design, but a revolutionary proving ground

[The BigI]

The question is why Hitler wanted the Me-262 to be a bomber, when they already had the Arado -234:confused:

[Cook]

The question is why Hitler wanted the Me-262 to be a bomber, when they already had the Arado -234:confused:

Because he was a twit.

[KyleB]

German late war piston engine fighters like the ME-109 series K and the FW-190 D where already very competitive anyway. The whole reason jets where attractive to Germany was that they offered a (potential) MASSIVE increase in performance which they thought could be a multiplier to make up for their hyper numerical inferiority

this pod doesn't change much... maybe some elements of wing design get pushed back a few years but the time line would merge with otl by 1955 more or less

Are you sure about this?

Instead of investing massive resources in jet aircraft development, the Germans build a fighter that's just as good as/better than the Do 335 but in service by D-Day. Not as fast as an Me 262 but with better reliability, maneuverability, fuel efficiency, and operability. And it's a lot cheaper, too. Turbojet development could still continue at a moderate pace, enough perhaps for German jets to enter service around early 1945. I think it would change the air war in Europe quite a bit, maybe enough to forestall Germany's defeat by a few days or a week and accelerate early jet development in the West.

The 109K had a max speed of 450mph, the 190D, 426mph. The Ta-152 could get to 470mph, but that was only with GM-1 boost which was temporary and wore down the engine. However this design might reach 480-490mph and would have a longer range and better armament.

By using a DB 604C instead of two DB 603s (as in the Do 335) this aircraft would instantly lose 800kg but with the same power. And it would be very easy to fit a battery of cannon, and possibly radar, to its nose.

[Just Leo]

My records show that the DB604 was cancelled September 1942. It possibly was deemed flawed.

High performance numbers for some German fighters can be deceiving. Their highest priority mission was to shoot down American bombers. To do this required modifications in armor and armament which reduced performance dramatically.

[BlairWitch749]

Are you sure about this?

Instead of investing massive resources in jet aircraft development, the Germans build a fighter that's just as good as/better than the Do 335 but in service by D-Day. Not as fast as an Me 262 but with better reliability, maneuverability, fuel efficiency, and operability. And it's a lot cheaper, too. Turbojet development could still continue at a moderate pace, enough perhaps for German jets to enter service around early 1945. I think it would change the air war in Europe quite a bit, maybe enough to forestall Germany's defeat by a few days or a week and accelerate early jet development in the West.

The 109K had a max speed of 450mph, the 190D, 426mph. The Ta-152 could get to 470mph, but that was only with GM-1 boost which was temporary and wore down the engine. However this design might reach 480-490mph and would have a longer range and better armament.

By using a DB 604C instead of two DB 603s (as in the Do 335) this aircraft would instantly lose 800kg but with the same power. And it would be very easy to fit a battery of cannon, and possibly radar, to its nose.

Considering the top speed of the P-51 mustang D was about 430mph and the Giffen spitfire XIV was about 445... the FW-190D and ME-109K (configured as fighters/ not weighted down with 30mm cannons as bomber destroyers) where plenty competitive with these designs

The problem was the LW pilot quality went to shit because their replacement and training system sucked AND they flew their aces non stop until they got tired, made mistakes and got shot down instead of rotating them home to be instructors

Jets offered the opportunity to have the aircraft itself be a massive force multiplier... even the DO-335 was not going to be SO superior to the P-51 and other allied fighters that it would make much of a difference compared to an ME-109K

[CalBear]

Faster is a relative thing. 15 MPH of an advantage is nice, but it also something of a fallacy.

You take a totally clean airframe (probably waxed to within an inch of its life) with minimal loading (partial fuel load, probably no ammo in guns, etc.) pump the supercharger to the max and go for a couple of high speed runs. In the process, you destroy the engine, but no big deal, because the entire point is to show what you can achieve (and get that contract bonus!!!).

In real life you get a bird that has a couple hundered miles since last tear down, a couple spark plugs that a a bit fouled, a fuel line that isn't pristine, and bit of gunk in the oil that is fully loaded, possibly even past fully loaded, and is being flown by a pilot who has been on the stick for 4-5 hours or is on his third sortie of the day. That airframe will not be anywhere close to the max speed of the design. Even if it is, and the other guys have three fighters vs. the one slightly faster bird, guess who goes home?

The advantage of the jets were that they were 100+ mph faster than the fighters they were matched up against and, more critically, were so fast that the gunners on the bombers had a hard time getting a bead on them using the turrets (IIRC this was a particular issue with the ball turrets).

Overall the difference is negligible.

[Riain]

Good point, apparently Dowding tested a number of Hurricanes during the Bob and found their average speed to be 305mph, well below the supposed 330mph or so of the plane.

[KyleB]

My records show that the DB604 was cancelled September 1942. It possibly was deemed flawed.

High performance numbers for some German fighters can be deceiving. Their highest priority mission was to shoot down American bombers. To do this required modifications in armor and armament which reduced performance dramatically.

I have found very little information on the DB 604 but apparently it was a very promising design, according to Bill Gunston. Trial runs on Ju 52s had taken place. Also, production had already started when it was cancelled on September 4, 1942.

Faster is a relative thing. 15 MPH of an advantage is nice, but it also something of a fallacy.

You take a totally clean airframe (probably waxed to within an inch of its life) with minimal loading (partial fuel load, probably no ammo in guns, etc.) pump the supercharger to the max and go for a couple of high speed runs. In the process, you destroy the engine, but no big deal, because the entire point is to show what you can achieve (and get that contract bonus!!!).

In real life you get a bird that has a couple hundered miles since last tear down, a couple spark plugs that a a bit fouled, a fuel line that isn't pristine, and bit of gunk in the oil that is fully loaded, possibly even past fully loaded, and is being flown by a pilot who has been on the stick for 4-5 hours or is on his third sortie of the day. That airframe will not be anywhere close to the max speed of the design. Even if it is, and the other guys have three fighters vs. the one slightly faster bird, guess who goes home?

The advantage of the jets were that they were 100+ mph faster than the fighters they were matched up against and, more critically, were so fast that the gunners on the bombers had a hard time getting a bead on them using the turrets (IIRC this was a particular issue with the ball turrets).

Overall the difference is negligible.

OK, I see your point.