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abc123
May 10th, 2011, 04:50 PM
Let's say that somehow Russian Empire remains/or Russian Republic survives with pretty much the same borders as pre-1914.

Today's Moscow is about 2,5 or 3 x size of St. Petersburg by population.
12-14 millions vs. about 5 millions.

But in 1914. the difference was much smaller: St. Petersburg had about 2,2 millions and Moscow slightly below 2 millions.
So, if situation is continued without changes, what you think wich one of these two cities will be bigger?
( Capital remains in St. Petersburg ITTL )
Rudi Maxer
May 10th, 2011, 05:40 PM
I can hardly imagine St. Petersburg reaching the size of today's Moscow with it's location so far to the north. Probably they would come about even (7 - 8 million each).
abc123
May 10th, 2011, 07:22 PM
I can hardly imagine St. Petersburg reaching the size of today's Moscow with it's location so far to the north. Probably they would come about even (7 - 8 million each).

I agree, they would most probably become about the same size, maybe Moscow slightly larger...
RGB
May 11th, 2011, 04:46 PM
St.Petersburg has less places to expand. Moscow abosrbed a lot of the nearby towns. The canals linking it to all the major seaports also really helped with deliveries to the city, something that is ironically much harder for Petersburg despite it being on the Baltic.
abc123
May 11th, 2011, 05:50 PM
St.Petersburg has less places to expand. Moscow abosrbed a lot of the nearby towns. The canals linking it to all the major seaports also really helped with deliveries to the city, something that is ironically much harder for Petersburg despite it being on the Baltic.

Well, St. Petersburg is also connected with canals to Moscow or other seas that Moscow is connected too.
Also, there's a lot area for expansion for St. Petersburg.
RGB
May 11th, 2011, 05:53 PM
Well, St. Petersburg is also connected with canals to Moscow or other seas that Moscow is connected too.
Also, there's a lot area for expansion for St. Petersburg.

Petersburg needs to drain swamps and build around the bay to expand. Moscow just needs to lay house planning down.

Not that I'm saying Petersburg could never become a much bigger city than today, it could. It's just much easier with Moscow.
Alex Richards
May 11th, 2011, 05:59 PM
I wonder what effect the seige of Leningrad had on the population of St. Petersburg, and in general if there was a move east to Moscow as an effect of the front.
Rudi Maxer
May 13th, 2011, 10:23 AM
Wikipedia can tell you:

Population of St. Petersburg 1941: 2 992 000
Population of St. Petersburg 1944: 546 000
Alex Richards
May 13th, 2011, 06:39 PM
Wikipedia can tell you:

Population of St. Petersburg 1941: 2 992 000
Population of St. Petersburg 1944: 546 000

Wait, St. Petersburg lost 2.5 million people? Are you sure you've not missed a digit there?

If this is accurate, then I can quite easily see a St. Petersburg of 10 million people.
RGB
May 13th, 2011, 06:42 PM
Wait, St. Petersburg lost 2.5 million people? Are you sure you've not missed a digit there?

During the war and the blocade? With the evacuation, constant shelling and 200-calories-per-day?

Yes. People did return afterwards, though.

If this is accurate, then I can quite easily see a St. Petersburg of 10 million people.

At this point it'd be unrecognizable. For one, it'd probably need to expand to nerly every other town in the Oblast. The conurbation at large could possibly be that big, I suppose.
Beedok
May 13th, 2011, 06:42 PM
Wikipedia can tell you:

Population of St. Petersburg 1941: 2 992 000
Population of St. Petersburg 1944: 546 000

I knew they lost a lot of people, but I didn't realise it was that many. :eek::(
abc123
May 13th, 2011, 08:36 PM
During the war and the blocade? With the evacuation, constant shelling and 200-calories-per-day?

Yes. People did return afterwards, though.



At this point it'd be unrecognizable. For one, it'd probably need to expand to nerly every other town in the Oblast. The conurbation at large could possibly be that big, I suppose.


The memorial complex by Alexander Vasiliev and Yevgeniy Levinson (http://www.alternatehistory.com/w/index.php?title=Yevgeniy_Levinson&action=edit&redlink=1) was opened on May 9, 1960. About 420,000 civilians and 50,000 soldiers of the Leningrad Front (http://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/Leningrad_Front) were buried in 186 mass graves (http://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/Mass_grave). Near the entrance an eternal flame (http://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/Eternal_flame) is located. A marble plate affirms that from September 4, 1941 to January 22, 1944 107,158 air bombs were dropped on the city, 148,478 shells were fired, 16,744 men died, 33,782 were wounded and 641,803 died of starvation.
Kome
May 13th, 2011, 08:40 PM
The memorial complex by Alexander Vasiliev and Yevgeniy Levinson (http://www.alternatehistory.com/w/index.php?title=Yevgeniy_Levinson&action=edit&redlink=1) was opened on May 9, 1960. About 420,000 civilians and 50,000 soldiers of the Leningrad Front (http://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/Leningrad_Front) were buried in 186 mass graves (http://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/Mass_grave). Near the entrance an eternal flame (http://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/Eternal_flame) is located. A marble plate affirms that from September 4, 1941 to January 22, 1944 107,158 air bombs were dropped on the city, 148,478 shells were fired, 16,744 men died, 33,782 were wounded and 641,803 died of starvation.
The refugees and evacuation probably make up the rest of the number.