Vegetarian ASBs? Two scenarios:

[eschaton]

1. ASBs vanish every human on earth who ate meat within the past year. Meat meaning the flesh of all animals, from cattle down to insects, so no one is left but real vegetarians and vegans. If someone ate something with meat in it by accident it's permissable. Anyone who 'falls off the wagon' after the initial vanishing will also be vanished. Everything else on earth remains untouched.

2. More kindly vegetarian ASBs simply change human reactions to animal products. Everyone is left unchanged except animal products taste extremely nauseating, and cause death if too much is eaten. Also, leather or fur causes people to have severe allergic reactions.

[Rabbit Scribe]

No need for ASB's, in my opinion. Vegetarianism is cheaper, very good for the environment, and kinder. We eat meat because we like it. Sooner or later, vegetarianism is going to reach critical mass. Betcha a Boca burger that in 150 years, people will look at eating sapients the way we look at slavery...

(Edit) That would be, "...eating sentients..." there, Einstein. (kicks self in head)

[TheLoneAmigo]

No need for ASB's, in my opinion. Vegetarianism is cheaper, very good for the environment, and kinder. We eat meat because we like it. Sooner or later, vegetarianism is going to reach critical mass. Betcha a Boca burger that in 150 years, people will look at eating sapients the way we look at slavery...

Eating sapients? What sapients?

[Rabbit Scribe]

Eating sapients? What sapients?

Y'know, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, the Dalai Lama, people like that. In the future, I feel that society might disapprove of my eating 'em.

Beg pardon?

[eschaton]

Dude, I hear you. I've been a vegetarian for 13 years and a vegan for 9, but I'm just curious to hear what others might have to say without goin on a rant.

Honestly, I think most people will be vegetarians in 150 years, but not for any ethical reasons. Livestock waste tremendous amounts of water, and the oceans have been tremendously overfished. The price of meat is going to skyrocket as the population expands, the water table runs down in places like the west, and the third world gets richer. If the population gets too high, raising livestock will be ecologically inappropriate anywhere but very marginal areas, as you can get a higher calorie return per square meter growing cereals on the land. We'll have to wait and see though.

[aktarian]

Question: does this vanishing include people who eat eggs (including caviar) and eggy products (mayonaisse)?

[Straha]

that could be the case but it will probably be VERY gradual as meat prices slowly go up and production/quality slowly decline...

[Dave Howery]

it's those 'marginal' areas that are the kicker. Why do you think natives in jungle regions are so big on hunting? Jungle soil is extremely crappy for growing crops for more than a couple of seasons. So, it's either bush meat or uproot the whole population every couple of years and slash and burn another big chunk of the jungle. Food is a real problem in these areas. Technically, the state I live in is a marginal area, much of it semi-desert and a short growing season to boot. Cattle will always do well here, but growing crops is always chancy....

[eschaton]

it's those 'marginal' areas that are the kicker. Why do you think natives in jungle regions are so big on hunting? Jungle soil is extremely crappy for growing crops for more than a couple of seasons. So, it's either bush meat or uproot the whole population every couple of years and slash and burn another big chunk of the jungle. Food is a real problem in these areas. Technically, the state I live in is a marginal area, much of it semi-desert and a short growing season to boot. Cattle will always do well here, but growing crops is always chancy....

As time passes, there will be less marginal areas though, especially in the tropics. The land is better used for hunting ecologically speaking, but it's being used for cattle ranching now and ruined at a remarkably fast rate.

I don't evn want to go into what goats have been doing to ruin the middle east.

[Romulus Augustulus]

I don't think so, regarding vegetarianism. First off, there's no ethical basis for it...they're animals. We've been eating them for a million years; we can continue for a million years more. Next of all, we'll still be eating meat in 150 years. The neccesary water resources will come through improved recycling technology and from harvesting the icecaps. Furthermore, meat will be made more feasible through genetic alteration of meat-providing livestock, resulting in more meat for less food and water.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Eschaton- Based on the scenarios that you pose some things would certainly happen:

In scenario Number #1:
A) You would have a very WASP world- Consider the fact that 99.99% of Asian, Southeast Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, South Asia, Australia/New Zealand, Eastern Europe, and Pacific Islander culture would have disappeared....

B)Military Non-Threat- Consider the fact that over 99.99% of the world's military-trained and law enforcement personnel would have vanished as well, thus leaving vast areas open to attack or military conquest.

C) Collapse of Industrial Society- Considering you have 99.99% of the world's population vanished, you have a world population of 600,000 at most. While nature would certain thrive in the process, the human gene pool would slowly collapse...

In Scenatio #2:
A) Expect pharmaceutical companies to make billions of dollars based on patents and distribution of mecdication to deal with nausea and vommitting. Consider the idea that people are stubborn as heck and will spend more money on getting around a problem rather than quitting (e.g. consider how many people will spend for lactose intolerance or pet allergies)...

B) Expect a violent backlash against animal rights activists, vegetarians, vegans, and Buddhists as they become the target of conspiracy theories and suspicion. Most people will seek someone to blame for their ills, and will suddenly look with anger on those people whose lives went unchanged by the ASBs, and faster than you can say "biological weapon" will imagine a theory wherein either the Dalai Lama or even PETA released a virus to "convert us to their ways..."

C) Expect a massive famine amongst peoples of the Third World, especially amongst the Aboriginal peoples of Sub-Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia, Australiasia, North Africa, Latin America, and Native Americans (e.g. Inuit). By forcing them on a new diet, the ASBs have committed an act of "cultural imperialism" in their minds and possibly genocide....

[eschaton]

Eschaton- Based on the scenarios that you pose some things would certainly happen:

In scenario Number #1:
A) You would have a very WASP world- Consider the fact that 99.99% of Asian, Southeast Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, South Asia, Australia/New Zealand, Eastern Europe, and Pacific Islander culture would have disappeared....

I disagree with this assessment. Around 6% of the U.S. population would survive, with similar amounts in Western Europe, Canada, and Austriala, but a very high percentage of people would survive in, say, India. I have heard that 80% of Hindus in India are vegetarian. I think this number is a bit high, but I'm sure India would have well over half of the remaining world population.


B)Military Non-Threat- Consider the fact that over 99.99% of the world's military-trained and law enforcement personnel would have vanished as well, thus leaving vast areas open to attack or military conquest.

Attack or conquest by what army? Militant earth firsters? the Indian army? All those vegan mercenaries and warlords? Come on man.


C) Collapse of Industrial Society- Considering you have 99.99% of the world's population vanished, you have a world population of 600,000 at most. While nature would certain thrive in the process, the human gene pool would slowly collapse...

My guess is somewhere in the range of 100-500 million people have survived (depending on how many vegetarians there are in India and other parts of asia...can't find good figures). So you have about 2-9% of the population surviving. That's certainly a fall of most civilization situation, but not an end of the human race.


In Scenatio #2:

C) Expect a massive famine amongst peoples of the Third World, especially amongst the Aboriginal peoples of Sub-Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia, Australiasia, North Africa, Latin America, and Native Americans (e.g. Inuit). By forcing them on a new diet, the ASBs have committed an act of "cultural imperialism" in their minds and possibly genocide....

I highly doubt it would be a massive famine. The arctic populations would die out, as there is no vegetable matter there. As would pastoralists in areas too marginal to farm. But even in the kalahari, bushmen get 80% of their calories from vegetable matter. Most sedentary farming people could adjust fairly quickly. So yes, some cultures would be wiped out, but they would have, by neccessity, small populations. Most people would survive.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Eschaton:
-You forget that there are several problems with your assumptions. The actual number of Hindu vegetarians is much lower. According to Sudheer Birodkar in Life and Lifestyles in India states that the vegetarian Hindu population is actually 50% or 41% of the general population. You also have 12% of the population following Islam. You have 2.5% of the population following Christianity. You have 2% following Sikhism. And you also have 0.5% following Jainism. So you have roughly 2 out of 5 people in India left.

-Second, you actually have several major terrorist organizations that could mess things up. For instance in Pakistan, you have teh Hindu terrorist group, Shiv Sena, for more information check out the following link:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=1u2l7bd9a5gqg?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Shiv+Sena&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a&linktext=Shiv%20Sena

You also have the Aum Sirinkiyo, the Buddhist terrorist organization based in Japan that caused the 1995 Tokyo subway bombing, for more information on them, check out the following link:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=1u2l7bd9a5gqg?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Aum+Shinrikyo&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a&linktext=Aum%20Supreme%20Truth

You also can throw in the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, the world's largest terrorist organization, with over 100,000 members, for more information you can check out this site:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=1u2l7bd9a5gqg?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Tamil+Tigers&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a&linktext=Liberation%20Tigers%20of%20Tamil%20Eelam

You also have the United Liberation Front of Assam, who are waging a national "war of liberation" against "occupation by India". For more information on the group, check out this link:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=1u2l7bd9a5gqg?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=United+Liberation+Front+of+Asom&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a&linktext=United%20Liberation%20Front%20of%20Assam

But if you want some eco-terrorists as well, you can have the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) in Great Britain, see the following link:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=1u2l7bd9a5gqg?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Animal+Liberation+Front&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a&linktext=Animal%20Liberation%20Front

You also have the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) in the United States. You can find information on them at the following link:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=1u2l7bd9a5gqg?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Earth+Liberation+Front&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a&linktext=Earth%20Liberation%20Front

By your assumption, they should get along quite well singing "Kumbaya" around the campfire....

-Third, the idigenous peoples of the world makeup at least 350 million people worldwide raging from the Sakha and Komi of Siberia, to the Kalahari Bushmen of Bostwana. That's roughly 1 in 18 or more than 5% of the world population wiped out. They will definetly concede their diets, especially since it would destroy their religions, their cultural lifestyles, and what they consider their identities, for more information, check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indigenous_peoples

Just consider that the for the past 600 years the Western World has tried to force them to change their diets amidst ethnic cleansing, slavery, warfare, religious inquisition, famine, and political indoctrination. Why would stomach irritation and allergies detract them?

[eschaton]

Well, all the Jains would survive in the world actually, along with most of the Bahai, for what it's worth.

If we assume 40% or so of Indians survived, India alone would be a nation with 400 million remaining people. The U.S. would have around 16.5 million or so remaining people. My guess is that in total we're talking about a world population of like 450 million.

Whatever happens to the world, it will surely be an Indian hegemony soon enough.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

It gets a whole lot worse, you also have a world wherein Matt Hale, founder of the World Church of the Creator (WCOTC) in Florida, along with a majority of his followers are in power. To make matters worse, they would see the world as a divine providence for their self-proclaimed "Racial holy war" (RAHOWA). For more information on this group, check out this link:

http://www.teachersparadise.com/ency/en/wikipedia/w/wo/world_church_of_the_creator.html

In Great Britain you have Neo-Nazi leader David Myatt (a.k.a. Abdul Aziz ibn Myatt) and his followers calling for teh overthrow of the "Zionist New World Order", for more information, please check up on this link:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/David-Myatt

You also have Richard Hunt, leader of the Green Anarchy movement who basically calls for the racial extermination of c.75% of the excess population. For more information, please check out this link:

http://www.stewarthomesociety.org/ga.htm

In liberal San Francisco, California, you have Dennis "Justin" Raimondo and Kevin "Keith Sorel" Keating leading a Green/Brown Alliance calling for the overthrow of the "Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG)". For more information on their movement check out:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=7453

For more information on the "Green/Brown Alliance" you might want to check out the following link. It is a pretty thorough report by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Just consider the thought that they are the ones with the most military training and background in the world you have created:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=516

In either scenario, their power and ranks will grow

[eschaton]

The green Anarchists would already be in a paradise, because over 75% of the population would have been killed off. Everywhere but India and maybe some other regions in Asia the world would seem extremely depopulated. I've been to some anarchist conferences, and most of them are harmless hippie-punks who don't like to bathe and lack a class analysis.

I don't know why you're including Justin Raimondo in with those neo-nazis. I read antiwar.com on an almost daily basis, and I've never seen anything racist or anti-semetic in his work, or even anything crypto-fascist. He just talks about the dominance of the U.S. government by the war party, and that we have people in the U.S. goverment who put Israel's interests above our own. I can't seem to find any evidence he is a vegetarian online anyway. Where's your proof that any of those groups, besides the green anarchists, are vegetarians?

[Mr_ Bondoc]

The green Anarchists would already be in a paradise, because over 75% of the population would have been killed off. Everywhere but India and maybe some other regions in Asia the world would seem extremely depopulated. I've been to some anarchist conferences, and most of them are harmless hippie-punks who don't like to bathe and lack a class analysis.

I don't know why you're including Justin Raimondo in with those neo-nazis. I read antiwar.com on an almost daily basis, and I've never seen anything racist or anti-semetic in his work, or even anything crypto-fascist. He just talks about the dominance of the U.S. government by the war party, and that we have people in the U.S. goverment who put Israel's interests above our own. I can't seem to find any evidence he is a vegetarian online anyway. Where's your proof that any of those groups, besides the green anarchists, are vegetarians?

Eschaton- Obviously you didn't read the full article about David Hunt. In it they basically point to writings of David Hunt which state:

Hunt vents his racism in anti-Irish rants with headlines such as Off Our Patch Paddy. Alternative Green has also run articles supporting the 'red and brown' united front fighting against democracy in Russia, and currently argues for tough immigration and deportation laws. More sinister still is Richard Hunt's claim that the population must be reduced by 75% if we are to have an ecologically sustainable society. Hunt doesn't make it clear whether he wishes to set up death camps or if people will simply be left to starve....

As for Dennis "Justin" Raimondo, you apparently didn't read the following points in the article link:

The motive of his rage was transparent: admiration for Japanese militarism in World War II, and resentment that America won that conflict. As shocking as this must seem to the rest of us, Dennis Raimondo minced no words: he believes "the wrong side won the war in the Pacific."....

Raimondo acclaimed the possibility of war by the Slavic Macedonian state against its Albanian minority; at the same time.... Had either of them summoned up the courage to put their rhetoric into action, they might have accumulated notable careers massacring Albanian infants. But such was not to be. Raimondo advertised for contributions to send him to Serbia as a mercenary....

As for the issue of the other Neo-Nazi cults, please read the articles....

If you want more, I can certainly provide more, but please read the articles first.....

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Eschaton- Another thing you seem to forget is that Hindu religious fundamentalists are just as dangerous and violent as any fanatic. Unfortunately in the scenario presented they are going to have more power than they could have possibly dreamed of. If you are wondering for even a second how bad could a group of devout vegetarian Hindu pilgrims can be please consider the case of Babri Nasjid, a major Muslim temple in Gujarat which was destroyed in a case of sectarian violence and rioting in 1992-1993. For more information, please check out the following web-site:

http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-suresh250703.htm

In Arundhati Roy's book War Talk explores the violent and discriminatory state-backed actions of several major Hindu fundamentalist parties, including the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Bharata Janata Party (BJP), and the Rashistriya Swayansevek Sang (RSS) (responsible for the 1948 assassination of Mohandas Gandhi in 1948) promote through the Barjang Dal violence against the Adivasi (indigenous aborigines), the Dalit (the untouchables), the Kahars (fishing caste) and Kerats (shipbuilders caste) despite their adherence to the Hindu faith. Those persons who have the audacity to refuse the Hindu faith are considered "thravati" (terrorists). For more information, please check out the following links:

http://www.arundhatiroy.org.uk/

and for information on BJP religious violence, you might want to take a look at the following article from Freedom House:

http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/country/india/Hinduism%20and%20Terror.htm

or this report from Amnesty International:

http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Human-rights/2004/ai-report2004.htm

In any event, you have some pretty rotten people with a lot of weapons who probably don't fit your image of a vegan or vegetarian.

[Rabbit Scribe]

Great Googly-Moogly! I did a year abroad in 1987-8 in Oxford. I went to a bunch of Green Anarchist meetings and even distributed their literature. It was certainly pretty radical, but in a "take back our land" sorta way, not an "Overthrow ZOG!" way. I never heard any of that racist craziness, which either means they were playing their cards close to the vest or I was involved with another organization entirely. Wowzers. Guess I found the POD for "ASB's turn the conservative Catholic Rabbit Scribe into a crypto-Nazi Pagan." Too weird...

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Rabbit Scribe- It didn't happen all at once, but it certainly happened. Many people attribute the 1999 WTO Riots in Seattle, Washington as a catalyst for the transformation. For more information, please check out the following website:

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/cularch/xdkgreen.html

For more information on the various links that have occured between the neo-fascist movement and the various Green-affiliated movements, please check out this article by the Southern Poverty Law Center:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=287&printable=1

In any event, things are bound to get very ugly...very fast!!

[eschaton]

Have I anywhere in the thread claimed that everyone everywhere who survived would be saints? Of course not.

I'm not sure you have shown that a larger group of people who would survive would be violent extremists than in our own world. I think an argument could be made that while there would be proportionately less violent extremists, there would also be less people with the training to resist them.

Conversely, however, there would be little reason for most of these groups to bother witht the remaining population. There would exist a world of overwhelming oversupply, at least initially. Eventually, the specific skills and general labor of survivors, especially in thinly populated nations, would become important, and I could see 'slaver' societies springing up in various areas.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Considering the fact that, based on the evidence presented, you have at least India under a series of religious fundamentalists, things are going to go bad really fast. Some proof of this can be found in two words "dowry murders". For more information, please check out the following web-site by the Indian government:

http://www.indianchild.com/dowry_in_india.htm

As for the violent extremists, according to the South Asian Terrorism Portal, you would be sadly mistaken. According to their website, you have over 176 terrorist groups listed in India alone. In Sri Lanka you have over 37 registered terrorist groups. Based on these numbers alone, and based on their fundamentalist adherence to Buddhist and Hindu faiths, by proportions alone, you have more armed extremists than in OTL. For more information please read thoroughly the following link:

http://satp.org/default.asp

Finally, terrorists and most certainly racist extrmists will not stop their actions based on logic, oversupply of goods and supplies, or even common sense By their own reasoning they are sociopathic and extremists, who will kill rather than listen to logic from your basic Green Party activist....

[Rabbit Scribe]

Desktop computer: $800.00

Box of Boca Burgers & quart of soy milk: $9.00

Posting, "What would happen if vegetarians ruled the world," seeing the reply, "Those homicidal maniacs? There'd be a savage, bloody apocalypse, that's what would happen," and two pages later you've conclusively lost the argument: priceless.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Rabbit Scribe- "This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They're back! There's no choice left. And I'm ready for war...."- Marv Sin City (2005)