Washington D.C. isot

[NomadicSky]

read this first (http://www.ahtg.net/alterframe.html)
Forgotten Experiment on the Potomac Victoria Iona Adams
On your way south, you might consider a brief stop to look at the ruins of our nations first capital. Just east of the sleepy little town of Georgetown, Maryland, alone the Potomac you can see what is left of the early Republics efforts to found a new "Federal City." Began in Washington's first term, the city was an attempt to build a home for the federal government outside the reach of state governments. The federal government actually occupied the site in 1800 and continued until the capital was burnt and occupied by the British in the War of 1812. The yearlong occupation of the site by the British left most of the buildings in ruins. During that time, the Congress decided to permanently move the capital north to Philadelphia where it remains today. Once you have experienced the old Federal City's impossibly humid climate, you can appreciate their decision. In fact, the climate alone, with its high humidity and temperatures reaching the 90s, is enough to make one question the wisdom of ever attempting to build a city in what would have been a swamp in the early 19th Century. However, other reasons doomed the Georgetown-area as a national capital. First, its accessibility from the sea meant that invasion or bombardment could easily threaten the capital. This was the very weakness that the British exploited when they first raided and then, occupied the old capital. Second, as an artificial city, the old capital lacked at natural economic base to draw population. Before the age of an activist government in the 20th Century, even Philadelphia's Capital District was a relatively sleepy place. Outside the President, the federal bureaucracy (still small then), and the diplomatic core, the only residents were the state delegations that quickly hurried back to the state capitals the moment Congress was out of session. It is inconceivable that this largely temporary population could have sustained a national capital like Philadelphia was to. Third, although the Founders could not know it, the Civil

War would have almost certainly doomed the old capital (in fact, Robert E. Lee house can be easily seen on the Virginia side of the Potomac opposite the old President's mansion). After Maryland succeeded, a national capital on the Potomac would have been impossible.

Today little remains of the old capital. The ruins of the "Capital Building" are small and unimpressive. The President's mansion (know as the "White House"), has been restored and is a pleasant 18th Century house. A small museum has some interesting maps and models showing the plans for the Federal City. The "Mall" area (now farmland) was to be a large open grassy area that provided the Congress and the President separate unimpeded views. The classical architecture gives the city a very different look from the gothic and 2nd Empire style of the Capital District in Philadelphia. Taken together, the Federal City would have been a beautiful city, if it had ever escaped its handicaps.

What if the US federal district from our world was transported to same spot on the above world.
Where there was once farmland a large city from an alternate world exist, and where DC once stood there is nothing but farmland from an alternate world.
What happens to their world and without DC what happens to our United States?

[Doctor What]

Just the city or the people and politicians too?

[Ward]

Let us hope the pople go also I think we could get along with out them .

[NomadicSky]

Just the city or the people and politicians too?
Everything the entire federal district everything even the plumbing under the district

[Doctor What]

Everything the entire federal district everything even the plumbing under the district

Darn--if it happens now (summer vacation for everyone), then everyone EXCEPT all the politicians get ISOTed :rolleyes:

Hmmm....Curious about something--how many military forces are there in the D.C. area at any one time? If there's an argument between the two 'capitals' over who's in charge, things can get pretty messy if a squadron of F-16 suddenly appear over the skies.....

[Glen]

read this first (http://www.ahtg.net/alterframe.html)
Forgotten Experiment on the Potomac Victoria Iona Adams


What if the US federal district from our world was transported to same spot on the above world.
Where there was once farmland a large city from an alternate world exist, and where DC once stood there is nothing but farmland from an alternate world.
What happens to their world and without DC what happens to our United States?

Actually, I will address the world we are sending DC to first, and assume that all the politicians are in DC at the time of the ISOT, to simplify the picture.

Suddenly, DC is cut off from most communications by the jump, but radio and television (those few still picking up broadcast rather than cable) quickly begins to clue in the populace and the government that while something seriously weird is going on, it is not what they might expect.

Contact eventually is made with the rest of the US and the OTHER federal government in Philadelphia. While no one is certain what has happened, it is obvious that they are in a different America, one not terribly different than the one they originally knew, but populated by completely different people and with some disconcerting divergences in history and style.

The DC area is declared by both Feds a disaster area. The politicians and beaurocrats are out of a job, and thus the DC economy is crashing. Though slight, the money is different enough to not be acceptable currency. Emergency relief helps stem some of the worst economic dislocation, but it is going to be bad for a while in the district.

The politicians are now jobless and resourceless as most of their wealth was left behind in the other world. Many begin to find their way out of DC and back to the analogues of their home states (and not all the states are the same in borders or names!), trying to connect with this new America. The Districters, as they become known as, are also distinguishable by their use of popular culture terms that are different from those of this America.

Eventually, there is a slow but large exodus from DC as people try to go where they might find work, especially among the white collar workers. Unfortunately, many of the poor of DC are still stuck, and things go from bad to even worse there.

However, there is also some influx into the DC district proper. Cut rate prices on fabulous homes not previously available in the area attract some bargain hunters. Also, scientists and historians flock to DC to study the history of this other world and the possible phenomenon that brought it here. The Smithsonian Institute becomes a focal point of much of this activity.

Also, in short order a tourist industry begins. The monumental buildings of another world are an attraction to people in the US and from around the world. The White House, Capitol, Supreme Court, Washington and Lincoln monuments, and many other buildings are hot tourist draws, as is the Smithsonian Institute itself (or as it soon is called, the Smithsonian Institute DC, to distinguish it more from the Franklin-Smithsonian Institute in Philadelphia).

In the end, life goes on. The infrastructure is reconnected, and the city becomes a less crowded, poorer place, but one with some prospects for the future.

Many of the former members of the government there find some work as celebrities both of minor and major caliber, but almost none of them find a way back into governance.

Next time, our world without DC....

[Glen]

Darn--if it happens now (summer vacation for everyone), then everyone EXCEPT all the politicians get ISOTed :rolleyes:

Hmmm....Curious about something--how many military forces are there in the D.C. area at any one time? If there's an argument between the two 'capitals' over who's in charge, things can get pretty messy if a squadron of F-16 suddenly appear over the skies.....

No contest. The District is going to have only miniscule military assets compared to the rest of the nation, and have a lot of initial trouble with their infrastructure, AND no one in this place have even heard of them, much less voted for them. They will be out in the cold, and will know it very, very quickly.

[Glen]

The travellers along the busy arteries weaving in and out of the DC area are the first to notice the abrupt removal of the DC area from our world. A lot of big car accidents result, all being reported by neighboring Virginia and Maryland traffic copters, who also start reporting to the world that country fields have replaced DC.

The Military knows whats going on almost as quickly, and the news feed picked up from the local stations by the cable stations actually give them most of their initial intelligence.

The problem is that there is no President, no Congress, and no real federal government. Fortunately, the Pentagon was outside of the district, so most of the Military hierarchy is in place.

While there are a few isolated incidents of panic, mostly people are shocked. The stock market takes a dive, but otherwise life goes on. The military remains at a high state of alert, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in a televised news conference advises the world not to take advantage of this American emergency, as the military stands ready to defend the United States and the Constitution. All the state governments go into emergency session. The Constitution did not leave provisions for the entire removal of the federal government.

However, there are still the old ways. A Continental Congress is called and meets in Philadelphia (symbolism is important, sometimes). The first order of business, the Constitution is amended to allow for the appointment of an interim government. The Continental Congress will deal with the immediate needs of the government until emergency elections can be held within a month or two. The parties have no time for primaries, and instead revert to true party conventions with hastily assembled delegations from the states. This will be the first time in many decades that the party nominees for president will be chosen by the conventions. Both major parties choose governors to run.

Shortly after the elections, the President selects a new Supreme Court, composed of the most innocuos Judges to be found. No one is in the mood for partisan bickering and footdragging. Most of the members of this congress are outside the beltway folk (though a few old hands have come out of retirement and been reelected to the congress, giving a much needed sense of continuity with the previous congresses).

One of the hottest topics of debate (other than what happened to DC) is where to have the Capitol? For the immediate future, it has to be in some city, not tents in the fields of the district (there are those who want to rebuild it there). Philadelphia and New York are old favorites. Some people actually argue for Atlanta (often with snide comments that people must miss the beltway traffic). Denver is another frontrunner for its central location. Some on the West Coast argue for Seattle as a very livable and tech savvy city for the Capitol.

In the end, in the post 911 world, there can be only one real choice. New York City has become the symbolic heart of the nation, and with the loss of the District, the Big Apple becomes the Capitol of the United States of America. Coincidentally, this simplifies diplomatic arrangements for foreign countries since most can have their UN missions do double duty as their US embassies.

As the months start to turn into years, enthusiasm for a new DC fade. The cost alone would be prohibitive. Virginia and Maryland petition the Congress for the return of their original concessions for the formation of the District, and eventually this is granted, ending the rebuilding debate once and for all. A touching monument to lost DC is erected on the site of the old Mall, and is retained as Federal property.

And in the end, life goes on in the United States, though the loss of so many of their historical monuments and records will be the more enduring loss felt, initially it is the loss of so many friends and loved ones, and favorite sons and daughters of the states, that hit people hardest. A large city has been ripped out of the American landscape, one with connections to the entire nation.

[NomadicSky]

although it's the original from 1812 if they wanted to rebuild D.C. they would hae a small start

[Glen]

although it's the original from 1812 if they wanted to rebuild D.C. they would hae a small start

I thought it was just fields at this point. Why would they want to?

[Othniel]

The other world gains the Smithsonian. They'll know about our world's history through more than polticians.

[Glen]

The other world gains the Smithsonian. They'll know about our world's history through more than polticians.

Yep, and the National Archives, Library of Congress, etc. Essentially, they are going to learn a lot of stuff, whereas our world just loses.

[Othniel]

Well lets see, in our world arroding to the constutions of most states Goveners have the right to appoint new congressmen. So what we do is call for an assembly of the Goveners to appoint new congressmen. Then we go down the line of sucession looking for somebody that is still here that has to do with the Federal Goverment. If one Politician was sick and in their homestate for a few days, or say one of the ministers in the Cabinet is given the presidency.

[Imajin]

Hm, I wonder what would happen if Mitt Romney tried to get away with appointing republicans to the Massachusetts Delegation in Congress?

[Grimm Reaper]

Imajin, more likely we witness a general consensus to replace senators and congressmen with politicians of the same party. After all, EVERYONE is gone.

So is this OTL nation technologically and militarily equivalent to the US, or at an advantage/disadvantage vis a vis our USA?

I think I'll miss the Library of Congress, National Archives, et al. more than the politicians. :o

Most likely the US builds a new, more centrally located capital city. Perhaps St Louis or Kansas City?

[Othniel]

Denver,

Three reasons; Easy to defend

Beuatiful and stable

Thin Air, meaning the polticians spend more time breathing than talking. :D

[Glen]

Denver,

Three reasons; Easy to defend

Beuatiful and stable

Thin Air, meaning the polticians spend more time breathing than talking. :D

I think after the abrupt disappearance of DC, I think they would want to get up and running immediately, and want some place with more symbolism. New York City is gonna be the front runner, I think.

[Othniel]

I think after the abrupt disappearance of DC, I think they would want to get up and running immediately, and want some place with more symbolism. New York City is gonna be the front runner, I think.
Too easy to attack as illistrated by nine eleven. Be much better to have somewhere that would encourage moving out west. I say Nebraska at least, or South Dakota..

[Glen]

Well lets see, in our world arroding to the constutions of most states Goveners have the right to appoint new congressmen. So what we do is call for an assembly of the Goveners to appoint new congressmen. Then we go down the line of sucession looking for somebody that is still here that has to do with the Federal Goverment. If one Politician was sick and in their homestate for a few days, or say one of the ministers in the Cabinet is given the presidency.

Usually Senators, IIRC.

If you have the Governors appointing new congressmen, and GW, Dick, and Condi are in DC, then whoever the new congress pick as Speaker of the House would then become President according to the succession rules.

With things this wacked, I think a Continental Congress is the way to go. Basically the same as having the states appoint congressmen, except it recognizes the temporary nature of the arrangement.

[Glen]

Too easy to attack as illistrated by nine eleven. Be much better to have somewhere that would encourage moving out west. I say Nebraska at least, or South Dakota..

Bad symbolism, having the government go hide in the hinterlands. Also, the weather in South Dakota would shut down the capitol too often.

[Othniel]

Bad symbolism, having the government go hide in the hinterlands. Also, the weather in South Dakota would shut down the capitol too often.
Good symbolism, it shows a strong mountain defense. It shows the majesticness of our country and gives the symbol of the frontier. East Coast isn't important at all.

[Imajin]

East Coast isn't important at all.
I'd like to see the US get by without it's major population centers and industry... admittedly there is the West Coast, but the East is far more developed.

[Othniel]

I'd like to see the US get by without it's major population centers and industry... admittedly there is the West Coast, but the East is far more developed.
I'd like to see where you'd be without the Breadbasket, or Chicago, Dietriot, New Orleans, St. Loius, Kansas City, Houston, San Antonio, Santa Fe, Pheonix, or even the Ohiohian city centers and resources mined from around them.

I'll admit the importance of the Middle Colonies, but little else has the resources to substain the East Coast Industries.

[Imajin]

I'd like to see where you'd be without the Breadbasket, or Chicago, Dietriot, New Orleans, St. Loius, Kansas City, Houston, San Antonio, Santa Fe, Pheonix, or even the Ohiohian city centers and resources mined from around them. Without the middle colonies most of the East Coast is in trouble.
Hey, I never said the rest of the country wasn't important, just that the East Coast is as well :p

Anyway, for the bread basket and minerals, there's always Canada and the rest of the world, since the East Coast has all the major ports.... :D

[Othniel]

Hey, I never said the rest of the country wasn't important, just that the East Coast is as well :p

Anyway, for the bread basket and minerals, there's always Canada and the rest of the world, since the East Coast has all the major ports.... :D
How can you beat New Orleans and Chicago as ports? Not to mention San Fransico, Los Angelos, and Corpus Christi?

[Imajin]

How can you beat New Orleans and Chicago as ports? Not to mention San Fransico, Los Angelos, and Corpus Christi?
New York/New Jersey, Philadelphia, Boston...

[Othniel]

New York/New Jersey, Philadelphia, Boston...
You don't have access to Pearl Habour now though, and remeber who owns the national gaurd. Besides look at the places you mentioned, Phillie isn't a port and the rest are flithy cites. You need much smaller towns, like Las Vegas.

[Glen]

You don't have access to Pearl Habour now though, and remeber who owns the national gaurd. Besides look at the places you mentioned, Phillie isn't a port and the rest are flithy cites. You need much smaller towns, like Las Vegas.

Actually, Philadelphia is a port city, complete with some old naval yards. A lot of immigrants, especially prior to the 1800s entered America through Philadelphia. True, it's not on the ocean, but the Delaware river, up which seagoing vessels can come.

[Douglas]

OK...if each governor picks only members of his party to represent their state, it looks like this:

Senate: REPUBLICANS: 52, DEMOCRATS: 48

House of Reps: REPUBLICANS: 254, DEMOCRATS 181

28 of the Democratic senators will be from red states in the first session (2005-6). The election of 2008 will (my guess) be Richardson/Vilsack versus Pataki/Giuliani, with Pataki winning by a slim majority. The Senate races, however, just because of the way they are set up will result in the Democrats having a slim 51-49 or 52-48 majority in the Senate.

[NomadicSky]

This is a map of the United States in Washington D.C.'s new earth
This United States has 48 states timeline can be found here
http://alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=20833
*note Cuba is divided the grey half is the territory of East Cuba
the maroon half is the state of West Cuba

[Othniel]

48 States eh? No West Virginia, Alaska or Hawaii knocks us to 47, plus Cuba equals 48?

Again I've said this before, but Cuba always seems to have too many resources to be admitted as a whole state. They'd probably divide it, letting it become a state on a smaller end of the island as it gained more population and let the other gain a state sized population over a period of time. Also depending on when the USA inhierted the Island that would detrimine how many anglo-european settlers it would have, thus enchancing its population more than before.

[NomadicSky]

Cuba just looks like it's larger but Cuba is about the same size as Pennsylvania, I think it would just be one state.

[Othniel]

Cuba just looks like it's larger but Cuba is about the same size as Pennsylvania, I think it would just be one state.
Pennsylvania was thought too big in its day. remeber other states want to limit any new states given power. The population density of Cuba is enough that they would not wish to admit such a new state into congress. If it wasn't for that every state at least gets three people in congress the orginal thirteen would only allow states the size of Rhode Island.;)

[NomadicSky]

Could be like this
The Blue half is the State of West Cuba capital city Havana English the spoken by almost all of the population in West Cuba

the red half if the Territory of East Cuba
East Cuba is similar to Puerto Rico Spanish is the offical language of the territory East Cuba is self governing Santiago de Cuba is the capital city Many in East Cuba dream of their own soverign republic free of the United States


(I edited the United States map after posting this)

[NHBL]

Usually Senators, IIRC.

If you have the Governors appointing new congressmen, and GW, Dick, and Condi are in DC, then whoever the new congress pick as Speaker of the House would then become President according to the succession rules.


I don't think a new speaker would be the new president--someone in the established chain of succession would likely be outside the ISOT area. If there was no one, then perhaps it culd go that way.

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Too easy to attack as illistrated by nine eleven. Be much better to have somewhere that would encourage moving out west. I say Nebraska at least, or South Dakota..
My problem with NYC is that it's so big and populous already, making it the center of government would make navigating it impossible.

Why not Omaha, Nebraska, Othniel?

[Imajin]

OK...if each governor picks only members of his party to represent their state, it looks like this:

Senate: REPUBLICANS: 52, DEMOCRATS: 48

House of Reps: REPUBLICANS: 254, DEMOCRATS 181

28 of the Democratic senators will be from red states in the first session (2005-6). The election of 2008 will (my guess) be Richardson/Vilsack versus Pataki/Giuliani, with Pataki winning by a slim majority. The Senate races, however, just because of the way they are set up will result in the Democrats having a slim 51-49 or 52-48 majority in the Senate.
I'm going to say that I find it unlikely that Romney would go so far as to appoint twelve Republicans to serve for Massachusetts... He needs political points with the voters and the Legislature right now, he'd probably find some right-leaning Democrats instead...

[Imajin]

My problem with NYC is that it's so big and populous already, making it the center of government would make navigating it impossible.

Why not Omaha, Nebraska, Othniel?
Who wants a capital in Nebraska?

I say Boston, Massachusetts :D Or somewhere in New England, anyway... (if you are going to put the capital in a mostly empty rural state, at least choose Vermont...)

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Who wants a capital in Nebraska?

I say Boston, Massachusetts :D Or somewhere in New England, anyway... (if you are going to put the capital in a mostly empty rural state, at least choose Vermont...)
I have no preference for Nebraska. I was just naming the only city I know is in Nebraska as an example to Othniel.

[Othniel]

My problem with NYC is that it's so big and populous already, making it the center of government would make navigating it impossible.

Why not Omaha, Nebraska, Othniel?
Cause it is the state Capital:rolleyes:

How about Butte, Montana or Great Falls, Montana?

[Othniel]

Who wants a capital in Nebraska?

I say Boston, Massachusetts :D Or somewhere in New England, anyway... (if you are going to put the capital in a mostly empty rural state, at least choose Vermont...)
Two crowded, to easy to invade. I know, lets move it to Kansas City, Missouri...

[Imajin]

Two crowded, to easy to invade. I know, lets move it to Kansas City, Missouri...
Too easy to invade? Boston is guarded by both Boston Harbor (which has several fortresses, admittedly they are state parks and date to the Revolutionary War), and Cape Cod guarding it...

I suppose Kansas City, Missouri has some things going for it, though you have to look at the records for the Kansas City Royals... Doesn't look too good.

[Othniel]

Too easy to invade? Boston is guarded by both Boston Harbor (which has several fortresses, admittedly they are state parks and date to the Revolutionary War), and Cape Cod guarding it...

I suppose Kansas City, Missouri has some things going for it, though you have to look at the records for the Kansas City Royals... Doesn't look too good.
Recentralization is something I'm a strong advocate of, get rid of the bloody east coast bias of goverment.

[NomadicSky]

That should be the city of choice.
New York is just to damn crowded although they could put the new capital building in the World Trade center site
the building where Washington was inaugurated is very close by.

[Othniel]

That should be the city of choice.
New York is just to damn crowded although they could put the new capital building in the World Trade center site
the building where Washington was inaugurated is very close by.
Too much on the east coast, we now have a Pacific coast, so we should centralize away from New York, Phillie and all of the East coast to emphasis the devolpment of the interior. Put it wherever the exact middle of the country would be...

[NomadicSky]

Good Idea a new federal city
like Brazil only not as ugly.

[Imajin]

I disagree, the economic center of the country is the East Coast, and the capital should be left there.

[Othniel]

I disagree, the economic center of the country is the East Coast, and the capital should be left there.
Then how will the inteiror devolp and become the new center of the economy?:confused:

[Imajin]

Then how will the inteiror devolp and become the new center of the economy?:confused:
The East Coast began growing in economic strength when the capital was across the Atlantic Ocean... How does having the capital somewhere promote economic development (outside the new capital, that is)

[Othniel]

The East Coast began growing in economic strength when the capital was across the Atlantic Ocean... How does having the capital somewhere promote economic development (outside the new capital, that is)
It supports people to move around that community, which then effects the communities surrounding it. It gets rid of the rest of the country's resentment for the east coast, and provides a firm ancor for economics in the areas. Further more it sperates the directly felt attachment of east coast centered businessed alerting the Federal Goverment to the needs of other communties.

Also if you centralise it takes a lot longer to reach the capital from any border if invaded. I support the idea of an American Madrid as it adds to communities that would not normally have such a support. It also shows that there is no bias to one geographical region of the states.

[Gedca]

Cause it is the state Capital:rolleyes:

How about Butte, Montana or Great Falls, Montana?I don't think that Omaha is the state capital. If memory serves me it's Lincoln.

Actually I like Omaha. Not to big or small. Nice central location. It becoming effectively it's own state won't change state politics too much I think.