Cato's Cavalry

[Cymraeg]

Here's something that I've been toying with. I'd be grateful for any thoughts.

Deva, Britannia, 405AD

“No! Your knees. Grip the horse with your knees!”
It had been raining earlier and he’d had to order more sawdust to be scattered on the wet surface of the training ground. A small thing, but more than the idiot who had been there before had ever thought of. Lucius Tullius Cato watched as the latest idiot on a horse cantered clumsily around the training ground and then wondered what the hell he was doing there.
He wasn’t enjoying himself, he had to admit. Of all the places that the Eagles had been blown to, Britannia was the arse end of the empire. Perhaps the border forts on the Mesopotamian frontier were more out of the way, but he doubted it. The worst thing was that he was stuck in Deva, in the huge echoing barracks that had once helped to house an entire legion. The XX Valeria Victrix were long since gone from the shores of Britannia, but their ghosts were everywhere. In the graffiti on the walls, in the pieces of equipment still in the supply rooms and in the faces of a large number of children and other people within the walls of the city.
That was a melancholy thought and he drew his attention back to the idiots on horseback. They were not, technically speaking, auxiliaries, but then was only because anything that was granted that title tended to be shipped across to Gaul to fight the latest set of barbarian invaders. Few tended to come back.
To tell the truth, he had a nasty feeling that he had been forgotten about to be honest. Everything seemed to be crumbling around him, and that included the army. He’d been posted here and there, from place to place, with the officials that were often doing the sending not entirely sure if they were still officials at all. There was a great deal of chaos in Britannia, with no-one entirely sure who was in charge. Although he had met a few people who seemed to think that they should be in charge. He’d started to avoid them. Conversations with them tended to end in raised voices and sometimes raised fists, although they did often tend to end in a cup of wine and an apology from Cato for hitting them quite so hard.
He totally avoided the people who were higher up the chain of command and seemed to think that they definitely should be in charge. They were not someone you could knock down and then buy a cup of wine to say sorry.
He’d noticed that he was starting to like the wine from Britannia. The stuff from near Calleva Atrebatum was particularly good. He was getting soft.
Turning his attention back to his charges he winced as the next idiot climbed onto a horse and started to bumble around the ground. It was Corcorix. He had a soft spot for Cocorix, the lad was death on legs with any weapon – as long as he was standing on his own two feet. Stick him on a horse and all of a sudden he was a flailing idiot who fell off a great deal.
“Your knees, lad! Grip with your bloody knees!”
Corcorix nodded solemnly and then tried to knot his toes under the belly of the horse. Ten heartbeats later and he was on the sawdust. Fair do to the lad, he then dusted himself down and got back on the horse again.
Cato took a deep breath as he watched the poor lad and the even poorer horse as they wandered about, before finally gripping his belt, closing his eyes and wishing to whichever gods that were looking over him that he could be transported back to Londinium, where he knew a very lithe little barmaid. When he opened his eyes again he was still in Deva. Bugger.
Wonder of wonders, Corcorix was still on his horse, although he was starting to lean at a rather dangerous angle. If only he could stay on the bloody thing, Cato thought despairingly. If only there was some way of keeping him upright. A different saddle perhaps? A better horse? He gripped at his belt more tightly as the lad lost his battle to stay on and then got up and got back on it again. His finger found one of the rings that attached his dagger to his belt and he fiddled with it for a moment as he watched the would-be cavalryman – sorry, unofficial auxiliary – wander around the ground once more time, this time leaning the other way. And as he did so, something tickled in the back of his head.
An hour later he was sitting in what passed for a tavern, gripping a cup of wine and wondering idly about where the hell his life was going. Technically he was still an optio, attached to no particular legion. Practically speaking he was a leaf being blown in the wind. A frustrated leaf in the wind come to that. His pseudo-would-be cavalry trainees needed a lot more training. But there was no real training structure apart from him. And who knew where the wind – or the next pseudo official – would send him?
Idly he traced a pattern on the dust on the table. First a circle, like the ring on his belt. As that thought tingled in the back of his head then he traced a triangle. Then he turned his attention to the girl who was serving the wine that afternoon. She had the kind of cleavage that made every male eye turn yearningly towards her and she’d favoured him with the occasional smile that might just mean that Cato’s luck was running true that day. She had a measuring jug attached to her belt via a long piece of cloth that was embroidered with a looping pattern and he admired it as she poured him another mug of win from an amphora.
And then his mind wandered briefly again. The triangle. The cloth. What if... But then the cleavage intervened - almost literally - and this time the smile was warmer and larger and more inviting.
However the next day he remembered his vague inspiration. And he paid a visit to an old friend of his.

“You want two whats?”
Cato looked at Marcus Ambiorix and suppressed a sigh. His old friend was one of the best blacksmiths that he’d ever known, being very skilled with a hammer and an anvil. Unfortunately he wasn’t the fullest amphora in the cellar. “I need two triangles, Marcus. With… hoops at the end of each one. Sorry, at the top of them.”
Marcus looked at him as if he’d gone raving mad. “You want hoops where?”
This time he didn’t have to suppress the sigh, but he instead pulled out the piece of rag that he’d sketched the design onto with a piece of charcoal. “Look. Triangles, right? One piece of metal each, with hoops on each end and then bent into the shape of a triangle.”
Taking the piece of rag Marcus looked at it carefully. “Alright, looks simple enough,” he rumbled, scratching the back of his head with a heat-pitted hand. “What do want these things for though?”
“Training,” he said. “It’s just an idea I had.”
Marcus shrugged. “You cavalrymen are a funny lot,” he said and then he ambled off to the forge.

By the time that the recruits – sorry, ‘volunteers’ – assembled for training that afternoon Cato was just giving the finishing touches to the saddle with his faithful old bone needle and some heavy thread that he’d liberated from the storeroom around the corner. The young men watched him as he completed his work before lifting the saddle and slunging it onto the nearest horse, which had been watching with total unconcern.
“Corcorix, up here now,” Cato ordered as he secured the saddle. As the young Brigante stepped up Cato nodde at the horse. “On you get lad.”
“Yes Optio,” came the reply as he climbed dutifully but laboriously onto the beast.
“Right,” Cato said as Cocorix lurched upright in the saddle. “Stick your feet in those... metal triangles.”
“Optio?”
“Your feet – put them in.” Seeing the frown on the young man’s face Cato grabbed the nearest foot and stuffed it into the triangle. “Like that – see?”
“Yes Optio,” said Corcorix, doing the same thing to the other triangle.
“Right – now try to ride around the track now. Grip with your knees and try to keep your balance with the triangles.
The frown deepened, but Corcorix was nothing if not dutiful and he encouraged the horse into a slow walk. Three times he rode around the track. Not once did he fall off.
“Well done lad!” Cato beamed.
Corcorix nodded. “These triangles help, Optio,” he said thoughtfully. He flexed his legs slightly and nodded.

The rest of the week passed quite quietly, with the saddle-triangles resulting in far fewer recruits – sorry, volunteers – falling off their horses, especially after Cato donated two amphorae of Gaullish wine to Marcus in return for a lot more iron triangles.
However, at the end of the week two things happened. The first took place when Cato was watching Corcorix urge his horse into a lethargic run (that was slightly faster than a trot) at a target. The horse was being lazy and it was a hot day for once, so the young Brigante could be excused for losing his temper. With a shout of fury he stood up in the saddle, using the triangles for support, and directed a massive swipe of his sword at the target, which fell into two pieces.
“Sorry Optio,” a chastened Corcorix said as he rode back to the flabbergasted optio. “I got a bit excited.”
Cato looked at the ravaged target for a long moment. He’d been in the cavalry for a long time, and he was used to the various tricks that a good legionary used to fight and stay on his horse. He’d never seen anything like that though.
“Don’t worry,” he said thickly. Then he swallowed and looked sharply at the lad. “Do that again.”
“You want me to break another target?” Corcorix said, disbelievingly.
“Yes,” Cato said impatiently, slapping the horses’ right hindquarter and making it move away from him. “That’s an order legionary!”
This earned him an odd look from Corcorix, followed by a bashful smile as he tried the word ‘legionary’ around in his head to see how it sounded. The young Brigante then trotted his horse to the end of the practice line and then urged it into a slightly faster trot than before. Just before he got to the next target he awkwardly rose up on the triangles with a bellow and sliced the straw target in two with one blow.
“Mithras protect us,” Cato muttered under his breath as he traced the shape of the raven on his forehead quickly. Mithraism was frowned on these days, but he was operating on reflex.
“Interesting,” said a voice to one side softly and Cato looked over quickly at the tall man dressed in a rich tunic who was watching the training to one side. He’d vaguely noticed the man before, but hadn’t taken much notice of him. “Very, very interesting. Whose idea was the triangles.”
“Mine,” Cato said. “Are you part of the garrison?”
“What garrison?” the man asked wearily. Then he squinted at Corcorix, who was half-torn between triumph and worry. “How did that feel legionary?”
“A bit tricky sir, but I’ll get used to it,” he replied hesitantly.
“Are you supposed to be here sir,” Cato asked, getting impatient. “This is a training ground.”
The man grinned impishly at him for a moment, looking very young for a moment. “I was a legionary here once, optio. I remember the XXth quite well.” He fingered a ring on the index finger of his right hand, and Cato could see that it was a signet ring. “Marcus Ambrosius Aurelianus.”
Oh bugger, Cato thought desparingly, it’s the head bloke-who-thinks-he-should-be-in-charge for the region. Related to one of the former governors of Britannia Secunda. He was in trouble. Original thoughts always led to bloody trouble for him. “Optio Lucius Tullius Cato sir.”
“Congratulations, Centurion Cato,” Aurelianus said, “I’ve got a little job for you.”

[robertp6165]

I like it. :D

[Elfwine]

The title is catchy, the writing is good, and the characters look like they'll be enjoyable to watch.

I'm not sure if this would really work as a proto-stirrup, but that's a confession of ignorance, not an accusation of implausibility.

In any event, let's hear more.

[Art]

Camulod Chronicles/Dream of Eagles, which is a series of books on the making of the Arthurian legend, by Canadian author Jack Whyte. Seems plenty good to me!

[avon1985]

I like this a lot, it has many possibilities. Please continue.

[Sior]

bydew 'n ddigon

[Paladin]

I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work. There'd be some trial and error as they figured out what length worked best. Honestly, the stirrup is so simple it amazes me no one thought of it sooner.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Interesting....consider this subscribed.

[Ofaloaf]

Stirrups in the late Roman Empire (or at least Britannia at first)? Do tell more! How quickly will this go from the Romans to the foederati, and from them to the barbarians beyond the frontier? Might this lead to some sort of partial fragmentation along the lines of the 3rd century crisis, what with a Britannic state instead of a Gallic one, and so forth? Ambitious military strongmen and all that.

[Cymraeg]

The possibilities intrigued me, which why I'm writing it - although given the scarcity of historical information from Britannica at this time, bits of it will have to be speculation (and a bit of writers licence).

[Space Oddity]

Speaking as a man who knows his Arthurian apples...

Nice to see Ambrosius Aurelian there.

[Cymraeg]

Being a centurion was, he had to admit as he watched the expanded group of volunteers trot grimly around the practice ground, so far not very different from being an optio, although Cato had to admit that he was at least being paid more regularly. He’d always aspired to being a centurion, but over the years the chances had slipped by, sometimes due to bad luck and sometimes due to his ability to say things without first thinking about them.

On the other hand, although he could call himself a centurion he wasn’t sure if he was any part of a military unit in the Roman Army. Instead he seemed to be in charge of a volunteer unit of auxiliaries, training them under the auspices of a former soldier who was positioning himself for a run at becoming governor of Britannia Secunda, one of the main sub-divisions of the island. Strictly speaking the position was vacant as no-one really knew who the hell was in charge. Aurelianus certainly thought that he should be.

Cato wasn’t quite sure what to make of Aurelianus. Over the past few decades he’d seen enough would-be war leaders to know that any politician should never be allowed anywhere near soldiering, and vice versa, because they always made such a balls-up of it. The biggest balls-up of recent years had to be Magnus Maximus, gods rot the man. But Aurelianus... he had a certain something, charisma without arrogance. There was a... driven quality about him, as if he’d seen something just beyond Cato’s sight.

What hadn’t been just beyond Cato’s sight had been the big bag of solidi that he’d produced later that day, after grilling him about the exact thinking behind his iron triangles and then telling him to go out and expand his merry band of volunteers and then train them. Train them a lot. Train them in fact in fighting with the aid of those damnned iron triangles. “Little job”? Hah!

Ah well, at least it meant more time in Deva, with the very welcome distraction of Valeria the barmaid.

[kclcmdr]

Interesting...
with the beginnings of the Roma Dea Stirrups created by Centurion Cato..

That should give the Roman Legions a very versatile & more powerful calvary ...

Now if they can figure out how to use Calvary with stirrups and bow & arrows.. :D

[NORGCO]

Interesting...
with the beginnings of the Roma Dea Stirrups created by Centurion Cato..

That should give the Roman Legions a very versatile & more powerful calvary ...

Now if they can figure out how to use Calvary with stirrups and bow & arrows.. :D

Horseshoes would also be usefull. I don't think they were in use at this point, the impression I have is they came in with stirrups and decent saddles.

Of course since I've never actually riden a horse...

[Elfwine]

The problem with adding bows and arrows is that horse archery is extremely difficult to master.

Would be nice if it was an option, but spending the amount of training time it would take to be worth the trouble wouldn't be worth the trouble.

[Magnum]

The problem with adding bows and arrows is that horse archery is extremely difficult to master.

Would be nice if it was an option, but spending the amount of training time it would take to be worth the trouble wouldn't be worth the trouble.

To my knowledge, they already had some mounted archers in the west (and a lot more in the east), the equites sagittari. If by some miracle this info travels all the on the other side of Europe, it could have quite an impact.

P.S. very nice story. pls continue.

[robertp6165]

To my knowledge, they already had some mounted archers in the west (and a lot more in the east), the equites sagittari. If by some miracle this info travels all the on the other side of Europe, it could have quite an impact.

P.S. very nice story. pls continue.

As far as Britannia itself, I suggest giving the men a quiver full of javelins or a lance and sword. That would be highly effective against a Saxon shield wall, and much easier to train the locals how to use.

[Elfwine]

To my knowledge, they already had some mounted archers in the west (and a lot more in the east), the equites sagittari. If by some miracle this info travels all the on the other side of Europe, it could have quite an impact.

P.S. very nice story. pls continue.

Indeed. I'm just noting that Cato shouldn't waste his time on it.

I think the butterflies from this are going to be huge whether the author intended it or not.

[Space Oddity]

Eventually, yes--but we should also remember that the Empire's having a pretty damn comprehensive breakdown. The East is bad, the West is worse, and Honorious has just told Britain 'you're on your own.' News of this will spread, but it might take a while.

[Elfwine]

The East isn't really in that bad shape, and even if the West is breaking down stirrups existing will make a big impact on the people taking advantage of it.

[new statesman]

By the 7th century, primarily due to invaders from Central Asia, such as the Avars, stirrups began spreading across Asia to Europe.[20] The iron pear-shaped form of stirrups, the ancestor of medieval European types, appears in Japan around AD 470-550, and was found in Europe in 7th century Avar graves in Hungary.[21] A total of 111 specimens of early Avar-age, apple shaped, cast-iron stirrups with elongated suspension loop and flat, slightly inward bent tread had been excavated from 55 burial sites in Hungary and surrounding regions by 2005.[22] An early 7th-century date is secured for most Hungarian finds of stirrups with elongated suspension loops., though some of these may even be dated to before 600.[23] The earliest stirrups of western Europe, those of Budenheim and Regensburg, were either brought from the Avar Khaganate as booty or gifts, or were local imitations of stirrups in use at that time among Avar warriors.[24]
By the 8th century stirrups began to be adopted more widely by Europeans.[25] However, the Avar-style stirrups were not as widely adopted in western Europe. Stirrups do not appear in the Merovingian and Italo-Lombard milieu in large numbers, nor as frequently as within the Carpathian Basin.[24] Most other stirrups found in Germany that date to the 7th century do not resemble the iron Avar style commonly found in burial assemblages from Hungary and neighboring regions. Instead, hanging mounts occasionally found in burial assemblages in southern Germany suggest the use of wooden stirrups.[26] The scarcity of early-medieval stirrup finds in western Europe was noted by Bernard Bachrach: "Out of 704 eighth century male burials excavated in Germany untill [sic] 1967, only 13 had stirrups."[27]

The Great Stirrup Controversy is a controversy about the Stirrup Thesis, the theory that feudalism in Europe was largely the result of the introduction of the stirrup to cavalry.
The idea, first proposed by Lynn White Jr. in 1962, contends that as mounted warfare became easier and more effective for Frankish cavalry, they replaced infantry as the most powerful force on the battlefield, and thus aristocracy with wealth enough to own a horse became the dominant force on the battlefield, and thus were in a position to offer protection to horseless peasants.
It is agreed that cavalry replaced infantry in Carolingian France as the preferred mode of combat around the same time that feudalism emerged in that area, but whether this shift to cavalry was caused by the introduction of the stirrup is a contentious issue among historians. It has been asserted that armored cavalry were used successfully without stirrups before their introduction, and that the transition to cavalry was not a result of new technologies.
Modern reenactment and experimental archaeology has, however, shown that stirrup provides very little benefit for a mounted lancer, and a cantled saddle and spurs are more avail. Stirrup provides stability for striking with a sword or mace, however.
The first fully armoured cataphracts appeared in third century BC, almost 1000 years before the Carolingian dynast


A cataphract was a form of armored heavy cavalry utilised in ancient warfare by a number of peoples in Western Eurasia and the Eurasian Steppe.
The word in English is derived from the Greek: κατάφρακτος Kataphraktos (plural: κατάφρακτοι Kataphraktoi), literally meaning "armored" or "completely enclosed". Historically the cataphract was a very heavily armored horseman, with both the rider and steed draped from head-to-toe in scale armor, while typically wielding a kontos or lance as their weapon.
".. But no sooner had the first light of day appeared, than the glittering coats of mail, girt with bands of steel, and the gleaming cuirasses, seen from afar, showed that the king's forces were at hand." Ammianus Marcellinus, late Roman historian and soldier, describing the sight of Persian cataphracts approaching Roman infantry in Asia Minor, c. 4th century.[1]
Cataphracts served as either the elite cavalry or assault force for most empires and nations that fielded them, primarily used for impetuous charges to break through infantry formations. Chronicled by many historians from the earliest days of Antiquity up until the High Middle Ages, they are in part or wholly believed to have given rise to the Age of Feudalism in Europe and the later European equivalents of Knights and Paladins, via contact with the Byzantine Empire.[2]
Notable peoples and states deploying cataphracts at some point in their history include: the Scythians, Assyrians, Sarmatians, Parthian dynasties, Achaemenid Empire, Sakas, Armenia, Seleucids, Pergamenes, the Sassanid Empire, the Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire.
In the West, the fashion for heavily armored Roman cavalry seems to have been a response to the Eastern campaigns of the Parthians and Sassanids in the region referred to as Asia Minor, as well as numerous defeats at the hands of cataphracts across the steppes of Eurasia, the most notable of which is the Battle of Carrhae. Traditionally Roman Cavalry was neither heavily armored nor all that effective; the Roman Equites corps were composed mainly of lightly armored horsemen bearing spears and swords to chase down stragglers and routing enemies. The adoption of cataphract-like cavalry formations took hold amongst the late Roman army during the late 3rd and 4th centuries AD. The Emperor Gallienus Augustus (253–268 AD) and his general and would-be usurper Aureolus, bear much of the responsibility for the institution of Roman cataphract contingents in the Late Roman army.

Feudalism was a set of political and military customs in medieval Europe that flourished between the ninth and fifteenth centuries, which, broadly defined, was a system for ordering society around relationships derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labour. Although derived from the Latin word feodum (fief),[1] then in use, the term feudalism and the system it describes were not conceived of as a formal political system by the people living in the Medieval Period. In its classic definition, by François-Louis Ganshof (1944),[2] feudalism describes a set of reciprocal legal and military obligations among the warrior nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals and fiefs.

[Ofaloaf]

Did you seriously just copy that from Wikipedia?

[new statesman]

Yep Lazy as hell. i know. but it might help. i can see where Cymraeg is going with this, Very nice Idea, having Early Stirrup in The British isles at just the same time as the Anglo saxon invasion. it is looking V much like The Locals have just got a force multiplier, just at the right time! and in Deva Victrix. just far enogh away from the south east to use as a bace of ops.

[Cymraeg]

Marcus Valerius Poplicala was swearing briskly under his breath as he got down off the horse and he continued to swear as he stood next to the beast and glared at the iron triangles that were attached to the expensive saddle. “It’s so.... simple!” he finally exploded at Aurelianus, who had been watching his old friend to one side with a highly amused look on his face. “Why in the name of all that’s holy didn’t anyone think of this earlier?”

“I think that our minds are too sophisticated,” Aurelianus said with as straight a face as he could muster. “We don’t do simple things well.”

Poplicala squinted at him and then burst out laughing. “I like that,” he said, wiping his eyes. “Too sophisticated indeed.” He looked at the triangle in front of him again and then nodded. “Right then, you’ve convinced me. What now?”

Aurelianus gestured courteously and they walked into the atrium of the building, leaving the horse in the company of an attendant. “Now,” he said as they walked into his office, “We start building up our strength for the fight ahead.”

“Trouble where though?” Poplicala rumbled as he sank into a chair. “There’s so much of it all over the bloody place. Last time I was in Rome the place was in a panic. Same with Augusta Treverorum. No money, shambles for legions, barbarians all over the place, foederatii who don’t know their place in life and who stab you in the back every five minutes... take your pick.”

“I pick Britannia,” Aurelianus said quietly. “This island is defensible – if we have the right tools.”

Poplicala looked at him grimly. “We don’t have the right tools any more. You know that.”

“I know,” he said, closing his eyes for a long moment and then sighing. “Twenty years ago we had an army here in Britannia. We had a fleet. We had everything. Now – thanks to Magnus Maximus and his mad dream of becoming emperor! – we have nothing. The legions have gone. The auxiliaries are going. Trade’s faltering, government is in chaos...” he shook himself as if he was shedding the dark thoughts that clung to him like water. “Well, no more will go on the transports to Portus Itius. The word’s gone out to various friends of mine that all auxiliaries are to be reclassified as ‘volunteers’. It’ll be tricky, but we can arrange it.”

“Are you sure you can arrange that?” his friend asked dubiously. “It’s not like you have the authority.”

This comment earned him a shrug. “Who does have authority at the moment? No-one knows – government is still functioning at the lower level but it’s total confusion at the higher level. I have enough authority to give orders and make people do things without thinking about them too much, and quite often people like that because it eliminates some of the uncertainty.”

Grunting thoughtfully Poplicala nodded slowly. “What about this Great Council they’re talking about establishing?”

Aurelianus grimaced slightly. “It’s been proposed that the highest remaining officials and people of authority in Britannia assemble and discuss the situation. Decidivatus down in Londinium wrote to me last month to say that we should appeal to the Emperor himself.”

“You’re not enthusiastic about this council then?”

“I think that assembling such a group will open it up to all kinds of people with all kinds of views, who will talk and talk and talk! The last thing we want is a Senate in Britannia right now – there are too many decisions to be made.”

Poplicana looked at him thoughtfully for a long moment. “Are you saying,” he said carefully, “That we need an emperor here?”

His friend looked at him wryly. “No,” he replied almost gently, “We don’t. We both know where that would end.”

“So what do we need?”

“A smaller council, with people in it who can take the tough decisions and do what it takes to defend Britannia,” Aurelianus said forcefully, leaning over his desk. “We’re further north than parts of Germania, but we have a better climate. There’s a lot of good land here – and that’s something that’s always wanted. The Hibernians are getting restless again according to the people I have in Segontium. The Votadini are reporting that the Painted People are stirring as well. And then there are the Saxons. You know what the Sea Wolves are like. The minute that they sniff weakness here they’ll be all over the east coast like flies on fresh meat.

“We have to organise, while we still can. We’ve lost so many men to the wars in Gaul that it makes me feel ill at the implications. I’ve got agents out looking for retired veterans from the Eagles who we can use to start training. But that’s going to take time. Money too, but that’s something that we still have at the moment. Time’s the main factor though. That’s where those iron triangles come in – we have to find a better name for them though. I’ve got the centurion who came up with them out training as many cavalry as he can. Those triangles gives them far more force when it comes to fighting. Can you imagine a full charge now?”

Poplicana nodded with a shudder. Roman cavalry had never been the force that they could have been – the Empire had always used Gaulish cavalry because they were far better at fighting on horseback. But now... well now that had something that could give them a real edge. Cavalry could travel faster than infantry, obviously, but lacked punch. Or should that be had lacked punch. “You’re thinking about using cavalry to fight off any raids then?”

“Yes,” Aurelianus said, sitting back down behind his desk.

“What about this council? You know that Lucius Vitalis is pressing for a place on it don’t you?”

Aurelianus pulled a face. “Yes,” he said in a voice like stone. “I am aware of that backstabbing bastard and his poisonous son.”

“Poisonous and charismatic,” Poplicana pointed out. “Don’t dismiss them lightly Marcus. They’re dangerous. And they have support amongst the tribes. Oh and they wouldn’t shed any tears if they heard that you and your son were dead.”

“Well then,” Aurelianus said with a gleam in his eyes, “we’d better be careful hadn’t we? Especially as we have so much to do!”

[Space Oddity]

Ahem. If I may offer my assistance... Vortigern's father's name was--Vitalis. (Unless you're talking about Britu when you mentioned the son, but it's a bit early for him.)

[Cymraeg]

Thanks for that bit of information Space Oddity! The records of that time are patchy at the very best, so I suspect that there's going to be a fair bit of patching up here and there for this timeline. That said - I'm enjoying it! :D

[Space Oddity]

Hey, don't mention it. I've spent a lot of time collecting these odd facts on the bit players of the Arthurian mythos/semiobscure figures of British antiquity. It's good to see them getting used. Actually, a fun thing to note. Magnus Maximus has been mentioned--as well he should be--and guess who, in quite a few sources, is his son-in-law? Yep, our good buddy Vortigern is married to Magnus's daughter. With a son of his own on the way.

[robertp6165]

Ahem. If I may offer my assistance... Vortigern's father's name was--Vitalis. (Unless you're talking about Britu when you mentioned the son, but it's a bit early for him.)

Thanks for that bit of information Space Oddity! The records of that time are patchy at the very best, so I suspect that there's going to be a fair bit of patching up here and there for this timeline. That said - I'm enjoying it! :D

The more commonly accepted theory is that Vortigern's name was actually Vitalis or possibly Vitalinus, and Vortigern itself was a title rather than a name (Vortigern translates roughly as "Over-King," or High King) (http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/BritishVortigern.htm). Perhaps you can have the father be Vitalis and the son Vitalinus.

Incidentally the site linked above has a lot of really excellent info on the period Cymraeg is writing about. I relied heavily upon it when writing BRITONS TRIUMPHANT (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=37024&).

[Sior]

Cymraeg you may find these free books useful.

http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/history_military/Romes_Saxon_Shore.html

http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/history_military/0851159508.html

http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/Poetry/Forgotten_Books_Tales_of_King_Arthur_6.html

http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/kingdom_of_the_celts.html

http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/history_military/R4Legend.html

http://avaxsearch.com/avaxhome_search?q=king+arthur+&a=&c=5&l=7&sort_by=&commit=Search

[Space Oddity]

The more commonly accepted theory is that Vortigern's name was actually Vitalis or possibly Vitalinus, and Vortigern itself was a title rather than a name (Vortigern translates roughly as "Over-King," or High King) (http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/BritishVortigern.htm). Perhaps you can have the father be Vitalis and the son Vitalinus.

Incidentally the site linked above has a lot of really excellent info on the period Cymraeg is writing about. I relied heavily upon it when writing BRITONS TRIUMPHANT (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=37024&).

That theory is somewhat questionable, actually--the problem with 'Vortigern' being a title is that only one person ever seems to have gotten it--Vortigern. And while the name may mean 'High Lord' it doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a name--plenty of children have been named Rex or Regina, after all.

As I see it, there are three major ways it can be represented...

A) Vortigern is a title, created on the spot for our prospective Lucius Vitalinus, and never duplicated. (It can even indicate being head of the Council.)

B) Vortigern is a nickname/pseudonym, either given to Vortigern because of his high position, or assumed by him for roughly the same reason.

C) Vortigern is his name, and is a good indicator of the Vitalis family's ambitions and pride. (In this case, it would mean 'High and Lordly'.)

Really, anyone can work. Writing about this period is heavily speculative, even by althistory standards... :)

[robertp6165]

That theory is somewhat questionable, actually--the problem with 'Vortigern' being a title is that only one person ever seems to have gotten it--Vortigern. And while the name may mean 'High Lord' it doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a name--plenty of children have been named Rex or Regina, after all.

That's true, of course, but nevertheless, it is the commonly accepted theory as it stands. There could be any number of reasons why nobody else ever got the title. The most likely...Vortigern/Vitalus is recorded as having been widely reviled as the person responsible for the whole Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain. Whether he really was responsible or not, possibly there was so much revulsion that became attached to the title itself, which had become so identified with the man that his own name was forgotten, that his successors chose not to use the title again. Or maybe his immediate successors did use the title again, and it was edited out of later histories as the "Bad Vortigern" story gained currency.

At this early period, it is unlikely that somebody like Lucius Vitalis would have given his son a Celtic name. So the idea that Vortigern is a title rather than a name actually makes more sense.

[Cymraeg]

It had been a very long day, and what Aurelianus was really looking forward to was a cup of wine, anything edible at all, a plunge into a bath and then a lot of sleep. Unfortunately the reappearance of Centurion Cato in his office put that plan on hold. What was ominous was the fact that Cato had his helmet under one arm and a po-faced look of unease that he was quite familiar with. It said that here was an man with a burden.

“Beg pardon sir,” he rumbled almost hesitantly, “I have come to make my report.”

“Then please give it, Centurion,” Aurelianus commanded with a slight frown.

Cato stamped forwards and placed a set of wood-framed wax tablets in front of him. “Recruiting goes very well sir. I estimate that we have the equivalent of two centuries of men so far, with more joining. All are being trained in the riding of horses with stapeda, sir.”

“With what?” Aurelianus asked, partly distracted by the report in front of him which seemed to be written in the terse language of the professional non-commissioned officer. Then he made the connection. “Oh, I see. Very clever – who thought of that?”

“I did sir – well, it was after a discussion with Valeria – um, a female civilian,” he said, his ears turning slightly pink. Then he almost visibly shook himself. “We should have sufficient trained men in a few months for a cohort’s worth.”

“Good,” Aurelianus said, before leaning back in his chair wearily. “Do you have any more news?”

Cato stirred slightly and inspected his boots for a moment before looking up. “Beg leave to report an incident sir.”

“What kind of incident?” Aurelianus asked carefully.

“It took place on the road to Eboracum sir,” Cato said, looking a bit strained. “I was exercising some of the new recruits when I was approached by an officer from the Eboracum garrison. He was... an excitable gentleman.”

Translating this in his head Aurelianus knew that Cato was basically saying in NCO-language that the officer was an officious imbecile. “Did this excitable gentleman have a name?”

“Yes sir. Flavius Claudius Constantinus, sir.”

Oh in the name of Christ, Aurelianus thought despairingly. Not that idiot. Yes, he hated the Vitalinus clan with their nest in Glevum, but he despised Constantinus because he was a charismatic idiot with no head for reality. Worse, he’d been making loud noises about the need to go to Gaul with the new volunteers and ‘put matters right again’, which was the kind of thing that Maximus Magnus had dribbled just before he’d announced that he was the Emperor of the West.

“Very well, Centurion, what happened between you and this officer?”

Cato shifted uneasily on his feet. “Well sir, like I said, we were training when he approached. And he looked at the stapeda, sir, and he laughed at them and asked me what we were doing with such silly toys.”

Aurelianus looked at Cato and could tell at a glance that the Centurion was not a man to tease when it came to his invention. “What happened then?”

“Well sir, I told him the purpose of the stapeda, but he refused to listen and all he wanted to do was make fun of them and tell his own men that when he was in charge this kind of nonsense would be ended. Then he asked me who I was and what I was doing and who had given me orders.”

Aurelianus suppressed a wince. “And what did you tell him?”

“That I was training men under your command sir. He made a number of derogotary comments about you sir and then he claimed that the stapeda were toys again sir. So I told him again what they could do. I don’t think he believed me sir. Anyway, he challenged me to a practice fight on horseback sir, him against me.”

“He did?” Aurelianus asked, his eyebrows shooting up.

“Yes sir,” Cato said, looking even more shifty. “So we both mounted up with wooden swords for weapons and then when he said so we charged at each other.”

Aurelianus stood up and walked over to the table to one side where he poured himself a goblet of unwatered wine. “And what happened then Centurion?”

“Well sir,” Cato rumbled, carefully inspecting his boots again, “When I got near him I rose up and I clobbered him one sir. I mean, I broke his sword and knocked him clean off his horse.”

“Did you really?” Aurelianus asked with a barely suppressed grin. “What did he say to that?”

“Not a lot sir, because he landed on his head and broke his neck,” Cato said uncomfortably.

Aurelianus stood there for a long moment, looking at Centurion Cato. “Have some wine Cato,” he said eventually, pouring the rich red liquid into a second goblet. “I think you deserve it. What did his officers say?”

“Begging your pardon sir, but they said that he was an idiot,” said Cato as he accepted the goblet.

“Oh, so he was,” Aurelianus replied cheerfully as he sat back down again. “Right. When we have a cohort’s worth of men you’re going to be the Primus Pilus.”

“Thank you very much sir,” Cato said faintly and then look a very large gulp of wine. “Can I ask why sir?”

“Because you’ve just rid Britannia of the biggest military idiot on the Island,” said Aurelianus. “More wine?”

[Elfwine]

The awesomeness continues. Both in terms of what Cato did, and in terms of how fun it is to read.

[Art]

Is this Constantine the IIIrd, or the Constantine who was High King before Vortigern? That is a real question. . .

But if it was Constatine the IIIrd, he will never take the last Romano-British forces to die in Gaul. He was the man who put finis on Roman Britain, and we know next to nothing about him. . .

[Cymraeg]

Is this Constantine the IIIrd, or the Constantine who was High King before Vortigern? That is a real question. . .

But if it was Constatine the IIIrd, he will never take the last Romano-British forces to die in Gaul. He was the man who put finis on Roman Britain, and we know next to nothing about him. . .

It's Constantine III. And you're right - we very little about him bar his name. So I decided to get rid of him fairly early on. :D

[Darth_Kiryan]

The awesomeness continues. Both in terms of what Cato did, and in terms of how fun it is to read.


Ditto.

Pure awesomeness.

[Space Oddity]

Is this Constantine the IIIrd, or the Constantine who was High King before Vortigern? That is a real question. . .

But if it was Constatine the IIIrd, he will never take the last Romano-British forces to die in Gaul. He was the man who put finis on Roman Britain, and we know next to nothing about him. . .

Those are the same guy, actually. (Well, more or less.)

Much of the early British history we have is... confused.

[Claudius]

The awesomeness continues. Both in terms of what Cato did, and in terms of how fun it is to read.


Dittos. Great story. Truly excellent read!

Will Artorius Dux Bellorum make an appearance?

[Bee]

It's Constantine III. And you're right - we very little about him bar his name. So I decided to get rid of him fairly early on. :D

Going to get rid of his predecessors Marcus and Gracian too?

[stubear1012]

Thank you for this great time line. I have often wondered if better use of horse soldiers with good equipment would have made a difference toward the end of the Western Empire. Also, the way that this is written makes it fun to read. I hope that you continue this time line since I am very interested in how it develops.

[stubear1012]

I have been thinking about your time line and I have a few suggestions. Please feel free to do as you want with them.

1) Based on my research on Wiki, the English or Welsh longbow was around for a long time but did not become a military weapon until the Middle Ages. I am wondering if in this time line, you see an earlier development of the long bow as a way for the Britons to defend themselves against raiders.

2) Based on what I have read, I can see Britain become more stable and safer than Gaul. Do you see Roman citizens leaving Northwestern Gaul and going to Britain? If it was planned and organized, they could bring their money, live stock, libraries, tools, and may be weapons. These groups could be made up of engineers, skilled craftsmen, boat builders, farmers, ex or retired military, and so on. They could bring resources and skills to Britain. If instead, it is groups of people fleeing across the Channel ahead of the latest warlord, then Britain would still benefit from the people.

3) While on Wiki, I found some maps of Roman Britain. They represent Britain around 150 AD but still roads and locations of natural resources don't change much. You may want to look at posting some to help your readers.

Good Luck

stubear1012

[Art]

One of the first things the Romano-Britons need is a naval fleet. The Classis Gallica also known as the Channel Squadron, or the Saxon Shore fleet, basically disappears in the 3rd Century B. C. E. , and never returns. That was because of money. Another question, will the rise of effective proto-cataphracts change the remnants of the Roman Army in Britain? Will the legionary disappear? And where will the money come from to fund this cavalry force? London and the other cities are still there for now, but without a fleet, piracy increased everywhere. Britain needs ships, because without them the Saxons and other Germanic tribes will destroy trade and raid coastal villages, and the Picts and Scoti will come down like the wrath of god, and then (Vortigern) will make his infamous bargain with Hengist and Horsa . . . Cato and his fellows had better have a force ready before then!


As for Arthur . . . Who knows? Why was he always called (Pendragon)? Strange name, is it not?

[Elfwine]

Chief dragon, in half-translated Welsh, if I remember correctly.

[Michael B]

Britain needs ships, because without them the Saxons and other Germanic tribes will destroy trade and raid coastal villages, and the Picts and Scoti will come down like the wrath of god, and then (Vortigern) will make his infamous bargain with Hengist and Horsa . . . Cato and his fellows
Don't forget the Irish raiding Wales as well. If you think of all the intruders and throw in a civil war then the native British of any one faction are going to be outnumbered.

[Art]

ARE the (Irish) at this time in history. Scotland/Caledonia was settled (the Lowlands at least) by the Scoti, who were Irish/Gaels/Celts from Ulster. And who are (the native British) in that context?

[Michael B]

ARE the (Irish) at this time in history. Scotland/Caledonia was settled (the Lowlands at least) by the Scoti, who were Irish/Gaels/Celts from Ulster.
You still have the Irish raiding Wales

And who are (the native British) in that context?
Modern day Wales and England (roughly)

[Outofprint]

Thanks Cymraeg for starting a a better than life TL.
In my opinion with you have done everything right so far as TL development.

For example you have used great in depth personalities which allows a new level of engagement with them on a personal level. The characters you have developed infect you with their good sense of humour and like-ability that grows on you with each new update.
Basing your TL plot around the basic laws of common sense goals.
Using your character as organised weapon to develop a group of like minded individuals that attack the problem of the falling of the Roman Empire at its rotten hart with innovations such as leadership (Cato) and tech innovation (stirrups for cavalry).
The next one is a biggy to me as a lot of books and TLs seem to waste time with throw away characters like Constantine III that add nothing but get TL bogged down in avoidable problems and head aches for the readers that are only interested in reading for pleasure.
Its good to see that your TL that gets straight to the point and gets rid of point less characters.
I also feel that you have devoted enough time to answering question from your readers like me with out going over board.

Well done Cymraeg on your great TL so far its better than 90% of everything else i a read on and off line "no joke".

I look forward to more from this terrifyingly awesome TL.

[Elfwine]

Outofprint:

A question, speaking as a person with some interest in writing (both alternate history and otherwise).

What does this mean The next one is a biggy to me as a lot of books and TLs seem to waste time with throw away characters like Constantine III that add nothing but get TL bogged down in avoidable problems and head aches for the readers that are only interested in reading for pleasure.

Presumably this is not just about having characters who thwart the goals of the protagonists/heroes/whatever.

[Outofprint]

Outofprint:

A question, speaking as a person with some interest in writing (both alternate history and otherwise).

What does this mean

Presumably this is not just about having characters who thwart the goals of the protagonists/heroes/whatever.

You are correct in your assumption.:)

I hate characters who waste my time with their petty bickering about small humanities of death and destruction = the bleeding obvious that has nothing to do with the plot of the TL or book.

Good old Harry Turtledove is notorious when it come to developing wasted characters who wonder around talking to in to much detail about what they ate for breakfast and so on. Instead of developing characters who are at the centre of the important events in his plots line.

[Cymraeg]

Poplicala did not look a happy man when he walked into the room, and by the way that he slumped into the chair and groaned, nor did he sound a happy man.

“How was your trip?” Aurelianus asked as he looked up from the mound of work that he had piled on his desk.

“Bloody awful,” the old soldier grunted. “Too many idiots with two left feet, too many other idiots running to me with chits to sign, too many bureaucratic idiots wringing their hands over the cost – and all the time there’s the thought that every time I get on a horse I have to discard years of knowledge and remember how to ride the new bloody way.” He sighed and then squinted at Aurelianus. “The money’s starting to worry me.”

“I know,” sighed Aurelianus. “But I’m finding ways around that. I’ve heard that the taxes that should be going to Rome... aren’t.”

Poplicala gaped at him. “You’re joking,” he said in horror. “What happened?”

His friend shrugged. “I don’t know. The usual tax collectors are out and about, but due to the chaos along the Rhenus no-one’s sending them over to Gaul for fear of them being either stolen by barbarians or ‘appropriated’ by some provincial governor to pay the latest band of Foederati. The money’s piling up here and there, in Deva, Eboracum, Lindum and Londonium. That’s the one thing I’m hoping that this bloody council, if it’s ever finally called, will decide on.”

Scratching his chin Poplicala frowned at him. “Maybe,” he said reluctantly. “I just hope that others haven’t heard about it. I heard about what happened to Constantinus, but there are one or two others that you should be worried about.”

“Oh?” asked Aurelianus with a frown. “I was hoping that life would be easier with him having died from his own stupidity. Who are these others?”

“Gaius Marcus Belgicus and Quintus Gratianus. They talk a great deal but have a little under their tunics. When they were with Constantinus they could prop each other up and support each other. Without him they’re not as strong as they were. They both share his ideas – someone takes the purple and then they cross to Gaul, put the barbarians down, restore order and finally march on Rome and throw Stilcho from the Tarpeian Rock.”

Aurelianus rubbed his forehead tiredly. “All of which would be the greatest possible stupidity. This isn’t the time of Constantine! We don’t have Legions here any more! Gaah!!” He threw up his hands and then stood abruptly and paced over to the window.

“We can’t afford to lose a single man,” he said, watching a drop of rain trace its slow path down the other side of the glass. “I had a messenger this morning from Segontium. There was another raid nearby a week ago. Raiders from Hibernia. Not much damage – they were driven away by the garrison – but there are reports of more chaos in Hibernia. Tribes moving north. And that’s the last thing we need.”

“What about these two troublemakers?” Poplicala asked.

Aurelianus stood there for a long moment, watching the rain run down the window. “Leave them to me,” he said grimly.

[Outofprint]

Ohh god no not a reincarnation of the terrible two in Gaius Marcus Belgicus and Quintus Gratianus with their brains in their collective bums.

Is there any chance of these two being saved from their own stupidity?
Or can we look forward to more plot building action and violence?
I await the decision of Aurelianus.

[Caesar]

Very interesting, I have to say.

[Art]

Two fools who amounted to nothing. . . If Cato and Aurelianus can get together a real force, then they will not need the legions. . . and, speaking of which, it is not really clear if all of the 3 Legions of Britannia leave at the orders of Flavius Stilicho or Constantine the 3rd. . . What records we DO have of the time are quite incomplete.

[Outofprint]

Two fools who amounted to nothing. . . If Cato and Aurelianus can get together a real force, then they will not need the legions. . . and, speaking of which, it is not really clear if all of the 3 Legions of Britannia leave at the orders of Flavius Stilicho or Constantine the 3rd. . . What records we DO have of the time are quite incomplete.

What about having the best of both worlds by combining the disciple of the Legionaries with a fast effective cavalry.

It is after all necessary to a force to cover a broken cavalry charge and to have a well trained disciplined army to garrison to occupy and control the territory of the New Britannic/Briton Empire.

[Timmy811]

If they use that money that's been piling up they can build a formidable cavalry force, one that can protect the island and project power.

[Elfwine]

What about having the best of both worlds by combining the disciple of the Legionaries with a fast effective cavalry.

It is after all necessary to a force to cover a broken cavalry charge and to have a well trained disciplined army to garrison to occupy and control the territory of the New Britannic/Briton Empire.

The Britons would be lucky to have a united Brittania (in the near future). And I'm not sure if the economic infrastructure to support a standing army exists there.

Short term cash is one thing. Long term steady income for the state and functioning administration? That's going to be harder to obtain and maintain.

Not to be a downer, but that's a big problem.

[Outofprint]

The Britons would be lucky to have a united Brittania (in the near future). And I'm not sure if the economic infrastructure to support a standing army exists there.

Short term cash is one thing. Long term steady income for the state and functioning administration? That's going to be harder to obtain and maintain.

Not to be a downer, but that's a big problem.

The Britons already produce everything they need with their mining industrial production to make weapons and coins and seeing as the Romans occupied Britannia for roughly 400 years. I see no reason why their wouldn't have a mint around somewhere and some locals producing Roman wepons as it would be cheaper to make them locally rather than importation. So I reckon that Britannia has all the infrastructure and production to maintain and administer a pre Roman state.
What they really need is some good strong leadership to beat the administration into shape and make things work and put down the upstarts and pretenders that attacked pre Roman Briton.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Roman.Britain.Production.jpg

If the Britons with drawing the Legions from Hadrians wall and it is taken by the barbarians it will make them look very weak. I speculate that this is what brought on the Saxon invasion of 408.

[Elfwine]

The Britons already produce everything they need with their mining industrial production to make weapons and coins and seeing as the Romans occupied Britannia for roughly 400 years. I see no reason why their wouldn't have a mint around somewhere and some locals producing Roman wepons as it would be cheaper to make them locally rather than importation. So I reckon that Britannia has all the infrastructure and production to maintain and administer a pre Roman state.
What they really need is some good strong leadership to beat the administration into shape and make things work and put down the upstarts and pretenders that attacked pre Roman Briton.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Roman.Britain.Production.jpg

If the Britons with drawing the Legions from Hadrians wall and it is taken by the barbarians it will make them look very weak. I speculate that this is what brought on the Saxon invasion of 408.

There's a difference between being able to maintain a state equal to OTL's Middle Ages and a state at least in the Early Modern age when it comes to administration. I should have used the term political/economic there - its about the State's ability to do stuff, not the island's.

Minting coins and making swords is not nearly as important as being able to collect taxes.

And so much of them. Standing armies are expensive - if it just took being able to mint coins and make swords, we'd see them emerging roughly the same time as the medieval monarchies.

I'm not saying this is impossible - if the Britons survive the invasion with most of the old Roman infrastructure intact, this is possible. Just. But its not going to be easy or a complete success - at most it means that they can maintain what they have and as things grow and develop over the centuries this becomes the foundations for more.

[Outofprint]

There's a difference between being able to maintain a state equal to OTL's Middle Ages and a state at least in the Early Modern age when it comes to administration. I should have used the term political/economic there - its about the State's ability to do stuff, not the island's.

Minting coins and making swords is not nearly as important as being able to collect taxes.

And so much of them. Standing armies are expensive - if it just took being able to mint coins and make swords, we'd see them emerging roughly the same time as the medieval monarchies.

I'm not saying this is impossible - if the Britons survive the invasion with most of the old Roman infrastructure intact, this is possible. Just. But its not going to be easy or a complete success.

I dont understand why cant a pre Roman Briton successfully collect its taxes if the strong leadership is provided to beat the administration into shape so everything can run smoothly.

[Elfwine]

I dont understand why cant a pre Roman Briton successfully collect its taxes if the strong leadership is provided to beat the administration into shape so everything can run smoothly.

I'm not saying you can't collect taxes at all ever, but the level of dependability and efficiency necessary to keep more than a cadre to build an army around takes a lot of bureaucracy for the era.

Rome and Persia are exceptional for having that.

Something like what was built by the people of my ancestors, who thankfully will lose(?) in this timeline?

Imagine having to have guys like Aurelianus every generation or so because guys like Constantine won't go away.

That ought to give a sense of what a medieval (OTL 500 or so AD to 1500 or so AD) looks like when it comes to administration.

I'm not familiar enough with Roman Britain, but it sounds like the organization is already full of holes by what we see so far.

So as a rough outline of what you need to supply on a dependable basis:

Men (which have to either be persuaded to volunteer or be conscripted, each of which takes resources)
Salary (which has to be paid pretty reliably)
Food (also has to be available pretty reliably)
Armor (which is expensive)
Shields (listed separately from armor as they need to be replaced more often)
Weapons (also not cheap)
Ammunition if applicable (that's a lot of arrows)
Medicine (another expense)
Clothes (yet another expense)

Rain or shine. Good harvest or bad. For - so far as the state is concerned - eternity.

[Outofprint]

I'm not saying you can't collect taxes at all ever, but the level of dependability and efficiency necessary to keep more than a cadre to build an army around takes a lot of bureaucracy for the era.

Rome and Persia are exceptional for having that.

Something like what was built by the people of my ancestors, who thankfully will lose(?) in this timeline?

Imagine having to have guys like Aurelianus every generation or so because guys like Constantine won't go away.

That ought to give a sense of it.

I'm not familiar enough with Roman Britain, but it sounds like the organization is already full of holes by what we see so far.


Centralising what is already their is a good start in the way of bureaucracy in pre Roman Briton and i understand that thing will not be entirely business as usual and a certain amount of innovation will be required. By leaders with vision in the long run to keep things running.
Maybe it is necessary to crush upstarts with a show of force to try and convince other upstarts its not worth losing their head over the matter.

[Elfwine]

Centralising what is already their is a good start in the way of bureaucracy in pre Roman Briton and i understand that thing will not be entirely business as usual and a certain amount of innovation will be required. By leaders with vision in the long run to keep things running.
Maybe it is necessary to crush upstarts with a show of force to try and convince other upstarts its not worth losing their head over the matter.

Its not even just crushing upstarts. You just need the machinery to supply all that's needed, when its needed, where is needed...and to deal with bribes, incompetence, and everything else ought to wreck that (even if not specifically intending to wreck it - tax evasion simply because one doesn't like paying taxes is almost as bad as actively rebelling).

But yes, there's a good start in place, even if it is full of holes.

[Outofprint]

Its not even just crushing upstarts. You just need the machinery to supply all that's needed, when its needed, where is needed...and to deal with bribes, incompetence, and everything else ought to wreck that (even if not specifically intending to wreck it - tax evasion simply because one doesn't like paying taxes is almost as bad as actively rebelling).

But yes, there's a good start in place, even if it is full of holes.

If the council could be brought together under good leadership in TL before everything completely falls apart there may be hope. yes

[Elfwine]

If the council could be brought together under good leadership in TL before everything completely falls apart there may be hope. yes

Here's to hoping that its enough. A Roman Britain that is able to hold together enough of a state to mean something is both awesome and...

Well, likely to do well. :D Even if that does mean my ancestors lose this timeline, I'd count that as a good thing for the island.

[Outofprint]

Here's to hoping that its enough. A Roman Britain that is able to hold together enough of a state to mean something is both awesome and...

Well, likely to do well. :D Even if that does mean my ancestors lose this timeline, I'd count that as a good thing for the island.

Anything that delays the final fall of civ and the complete dark ages is worth a try dont you think.

And on the topic of dark ages i wonder weather a successful post Roman Briton will embrace Christianity to their advantage?

[Elfwine]

Anything that delays the final fall of civ and the complete dark ages is worth a try dont you think.

And on the topic of dark ages i wonder weather a successful post Roman Briton will embrace Christianity to their advantage?

Well, as long as the ERE stands, I'm not worried about civilization falling no matter what happens in the West. But anything that preserves it in the West is worth a try, yes.

Not sure how Christianity would be something they could embrace to their advantage (not arguing, just not sure I'm following).

[Outofprint]

Well, as long as the ERE stands, I'm not worried about civilization falling no matter what happens in the West. But anything that preserves it in the West is worth a try, yes.

Not sure how Christianity would be something they could embrace to their advantage (not arguing, just not sure I'm following).

Well what i was getting was there could be some trouble with pagan creating trouble and resisting Christianity and if the leadership decides not to embrace Christianity like Western emperor Valentinian there could be trouble.

[Elfwine]

Well what i was getting was there could be some trouble with pagan creating trouble and resisting Christianity and if the leadership decides not to embrace Christianity like Western emperor Valentinian there could be trouble.

Ah. Yeah, this would be...bad.

There are quite enough threats to British (Britonic?) unity as is.

[Outofprint]

It would be interesting to know Cato stance on Christianity.
If he is a really strong pagan he wont like the crusades the Christians are on and he will use his influence with his army to Christians a really hard time.
Edit

[Clibanarius]

It would be interesting to know Cato stance on Christianity.
If he is a really strong pagan he wont like the crusades the Christians are on and he will use his influence with his army to Christians a really hard time.
If that happens there could be a future Crusade against post Roman Briton.


The Crusades came long after Cato died.

[Elfwine]

You mean Cato isn't the Immortal Roman, whose duty it is to ensure that the Roman Empire endures forever and ever?

Well, that would explain why he's not a virgin.

...random babbling aside, would his religion matter here? Cato hasn't struck me as the type of person it does matter for.

[Clibanarius]

Kind of hard for a corpse to have a direct say so in events that'll happen almost a thousand years later ;)

[Elfwine]

Kind of hard for a corpse to have a direct say so in events that'll happen almost a thousand years later ;)

That's the whole point. He's not dead, he's an undead abomination with two heads.

...I have to show you where that idea is from (to the extent its not just a production of my demented imagination and fantasies) before I derail this truly interesting thread, but...if the crusades can be brought up in the 5th century, its already a little off topic, at least until the author smacks us around.

[RPW@Cy]

It would be interesting to know Cato stance on Christianity.
If he is a really strong pagan he wont like the crusades the Christians are on and he will use his influence with his army to Christians a really hard time.
Edit

The only evidence of Cato's religious beiefs is on the first page -

"“Mithras protect us,” Cato muttered under his breath as he traced the shape of the raven on his forehead quickly. Mithraism was frowned on these days, but he was operating on reflex."

This is actually understating things - Mithraism had pretty much been stamped out by this point following an Imperial decree of 391 banning all religions except Christianity in the Empire (thought its questionable how far this was enforced in as remote a place as Britain). Given too that Christianity was compulsory in the army some time before that, it's almost certain that Cato is at least nominally Christian too, even if he did follow the mysteries at one point and occasionally lapses.

Using the army to attempt to suppress Christianity at this point will at most result in a civil war that Britain simply can't afford - you're at least a century too late for this sort of thing. More likely it'll simply get Cato killed and things will carry on. BTW It's also almost certain that Aurelianus was a Christian - our earliest source Gildas praises him (which he didn't do with pagans) and says he won his victories with God's help. Aurelianus's response to Cato getting a sudden dose of fanaticism and attempting to stat a war of religion can be imagined.

[Darth_Kiryan]

Mithras...
snip...

Mithras...Mithrasism...
You see i read that, and all i can think of is Lord of the Rings.

[Outofprint]

The only evidence of Cato's religious beiefs is on the first page -

"“Mithras protect us,” Cato muttered under his breath as he traced the shape of the raven on his forehead quickly. Mithraism was frowned on these days, but he was operating on reflex."

This is actually understating things - Mithraism had pretty much been stamped out by this point following an Imperial decree of 391 banning all religions except Christianity in the Empire (thought its questionable how far this was enforced in as remote a place as Britain). Given too that Christianity was compulsory in the army some time before that, it's almost certain that Cato is at least nominally Christian too, even if he did follow the mysteries at one point and occasionally lapses.

Using the army to attempt to suppress Christianity at this point will at most result in a civil war that Britain simply can't afford - you're at least a century too late for this sort of thing. More likely it'll simply get Cato killed and things will carry on. BTW It's also almost certain that Aurelianus was a Christian - our earliest source Gildas praises him (which he didn't do with pagans) and says he won his victories with God's help. Aurelianus's response to Cato getting a sudden dose of fanaticism and attempting to stat a war of religion can be imagined.

It is possible that the law was not enforced by authorities in Britannia being at the far edge of the empire not wanting to threaten there rule because at the time Theodosius passed the laws in 491. Rome had been in its death throws for a while.
But some how i doubt that Cato is into the suppression of the Christian religion unless it threatens his dream of a stable post war Briton state even if he is a core pagan.
There is some possibility that Cato might encourage freedom of religion the basic right of of a modern state to stop the prosecution of the pagans might be both threaten his beliefs and and state stability as well.This could be enough for Cato and his allies to act and pass a freedom of RE. It is this chance i am interested in.

[Berserker]

Just read the TL: LIKING IT!!!:D:D:D:D:D

still curious iff the Picts are going to have anny effect on later events:confused:

[Outofprint]

If freedom of RE is addopted by the Britons it would allow paganism and Christianity to melt togeather more thoughly than it did in OLT persecution and fear.
This over the long run could mean that Briton would develop their own for of Christianity in the long run.
Kind of like what happend with the development of Orthodox Christanity in the Easten Roman Empire conforming more to Greek.
It could be argued that the spread and development of Orthodox RE could of been more effective the Easten Roman Empire had not become so over stretched defending to many borders.
But i would argue that this central unity of the Orthodox allowed allowed the Byzantine Empire to last many hundreds of years after the fall of the West.
If the post roman Britonic empire could survive the post roman barbarian invasion then it being an island with less borders the goverment could constentate more on enhanceing the power of Christianity. Then the Byzantines were able to.
Therefore theoretically the Britonic Empire with less threats could last longer and spread more of it Christianity around than the Byzantine empire did. Possibly spreading Briton Christianity to enforce its new conquests.

[Sior]

http://www.faithandworship.com/Celtic_Christianity.htm

[DuQuense]

One of the first things the Romano-Britons need is a naval fleet
If the Calvary is fast enuff -- They can capture the Pirate's Vessels.:D

Up to the time of Justian's Plague in the 530's The Britons still considered themselves as part of Rome.
They still traded with Constantinople. It was the traders bring the Plague to the Britons, that weakened them enuff for the Saxons to take over.

[Art]

But allowing proto-Vikings/Saxons to land and ravage the coastal holdings of the Romano-Britons is not a very wise idea. You are thinking of communications and movement from a 20th century point of view. In 400s Britain, the back of a horse, a marching man, or a fast galley/sailing ship is the fastest way to move or communicate. Attacks on coastal regions means either garrisoning them, as the Romans did in the 200-300s, when the Classis Britannica was reduced to nothing, (see Saxon Shore forts) or evacuate those regions permanently.
If you evacuate those regions, then you have to feed refugees for a indeterminate time. This would take away from your ability to build any kind of disiplined force. It also means that your merchant marine will take serious loses, and that means that your revenues will diminish. If you have a navy, you can have what the Scandanavian Navies had in WW1 and after: coast defence ships. Or look at what Alfred the Great did, when faced with Viking longships. I guess i just think that ships are a better defense, initially at least, than cavalry....


A few good naval quotes

"The Athenians will defend their city with a wooden wall."

Themistocles


"I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea."

1801

John Jervis,
Admiral St. Vincent



"It follows than as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious."
President George Washington, 15 November 1781, to Marquis de Lafayette.


"A good Navy is not a provocation to war. It is the surest guaranty of peace."
President Theodore Roosevelt, 2 December 1902



I wonder, does anyone know if an entire transport convoy has ever been caught on the surface and forced to surrender? I am a generalist student of history, and many small actions and wars I may know very little of (such as the South American Wars 1810-1950.)

[Art]

The Classis Britannica, established in 40 or 43 AD at Gesoriacum (Boulogne-sur-Mer).[104] It participated in the Roman invasion of Britain and the subsequent campaigns in the island.[102] The fleet was probably based at Rutupiae (Richborough) until 85 AD, when it was transferred to Dubris (Dover). Other bases were Portus Lemanis (Lympne) and Anderitum (Pevensey), while Gesoriacum on the Gallic coast likely remained active.[105] During the 2nd-3rd centuries, the fleet was chiefly employed in transport of supplies and men across the English Channel. The Classis Britannica disappears (at least under that name) from the mid-3rd century, and the sites occupied by it were soon incorporated into the Saxon Shore system.[105]





Third century crisis
As the 3rd century dawned, the Roman Empire was at its peak. In the Mediterranean, peace had reigned for over two centuries, as piracy had been wiped out and no outside naval threats occurred. As a result, complacency had set in: naval tactics and technology were neglected, and the Roman naval system had become moribund.[52] After 230 however and for fifty years, the situation changed dramatically. The so-called "Crisis of the Third Century" ushered a period of internal turmoil, and the same period saw a renewed series of seaborne assaults, which the imperial fleets proved unable to stem.[53] In the West, Picts and Irish ships raided Britain, while the Saxons raided the North Sea, forcing the Romans to abandon Frisia.[53] In the East, the Goths and other tribes from modern Ukraine raided in great numbers over the Black Sea.[54] These invasions began during the rule of Trebonianus Gallus, when for the first time Germanic tribes built up their own powerful fleet in the Black Sea. Via two surprise attacks (256) on Roman naval bases in the Caucasus and near the Danube, numerous ships fell into the hands of the Germans, whereupon the raids were extended as far as the Aegean Sea; Byzantium, Athens, Sparta and other towns were plundered and the responsible provincial fleets were heavily debilitated. It was not until the attackers made a tactical error, that their onrush could be stopped.
In 267–270 another, much fiercer series of attacks took place. A fleet composed of Heruli and other tribes raided the coasts of Thrace and the Pontus. Defeated off Byzantium by general Venerianus,[55] the barbarians fled into the Aegean, and ravaged many islands and coastal cities, including Athens and Corinth. As they retreated northwards over land, they were defeated by Emperor Gallienus at Nestos.[56] However, this was merely the prelude to an even larger invasion that was launched in 268/269: several tribes banded together (the Historia Augusta mentions Scythians, Greuthungi, Tervingi, Gepids, Peucini, Celts and Heruli) and allegedly 2,000 ships and 325,000 men strong,[57] raided the Thracian shore, attacked Byzantium and continued raiding the Aegean as far as Crete, while the main force approached Thessalonica. Emperor Claudius II however was able to defeat them at the Battle of Naissus, ending the Gothic threat for the time being.[58]
Barbarian raids also increased along the Rhine frontier and in the North Sea. Eutropius mentions that during the 280s, the sea along the coasts of the provinces of Belgica and Armorica was "infested with Franks and Saxons". To counter them, Maximian appointed Carausius as commander of the British Fleet.[59] However, Carausius rose up in late 286 and seceded from the Empire with Britannia and parts of the northern Gallic coast.[60] With a single blow Roman control of the channel and the North Sea was lost, and emperor Maximinus was forced to create a completely new Northern Fleet, but in lack of training it was almost immediately destroyed in a storm.[61] Only in 293, under Caesar Constantius Chlorus did Rome regain the Gallic coast. A new fleet was constructed in order to cross the Channel,[62] and in 296, with a concentric attack on Londinium the insurgent province was retaken.[63]
[edit]Late Antiquity
By the end of the 3rd century, the Roman navy had declined dramatically. Although Emperor Diocletian is held to have strengthened the navy, and increased its manpower from 46,000 to 64,000 men,[64] the old standing fleets had all but vanished, and in the civil wars that ended the Tetrarchy, the opposing sides had to mobilize the resources and commandeered the ships of the Eastern Mediterranean port cities.[54] These conflicts thus brought about a renewal of naval activity, culminating in the Battle of the Hellespont in 324 between the forces of Constantine I under Caesar Crispus and the fleet of Licinius, which was the only major naval confrontation of the 4th century.
Vegetius, writing at the end of the 4th century, testifies to the disappearance of the old praetorian fleets in Italy, but comments on the continued activity of the Danube fleet.[65] In the 5th century, only the eastern half of the Empire could field an effective fleet, as it could draw upon the maritime resources of Greece and the Levant. Although the Notitia Dignitatum still mentions several naval units for the Western Empire, these were apparently too depleted to be able to carry out much more than patrol duties.[66] At any rate, the rise of the naval power of the Vandal Kingdom under Geiseric in North Africa, and its raids in the Western Mediterranean, were practically uncontested.[54] Although there is some evidence of West Roman naval activity in the first half of the 5th century, this is mostly confined to troop transports and minor landing operations.[65] The historian Priscus and Sidonius Apollinaris affirm in their writings that by the mid-5th century, the Western Empire essentially lacked a war navy.[67] Matters became even worse after the disastrous failure of the fleets mobilized against the Vandals in 460 and 468, under the emperors Majorian and Anthemius.
For the West, there would be no recovery, as the last Western Emperor, Romulus Augustulus, was deposed in 476. In the East however, the classical naval tradition survived, and in the 6th century, a standing navy was reformed.[54] The East Roman (Byzantine) navy would remain a formidable force in the Mediterranean until the 11th century.


Lord! That explains about the Channel Fleet!

[Outofprint]

There could be a chance of recruiting pirate mercenarys as a stop gap untill a new Briton fleet can be created.
These mercenarys could perhaps form the base of this new navy.

[Elfwine]

There could be a chance of recruiting pirate mercenarys as a stop gap untill a new Briton fleet can be created.
These mercenarys could perhaps form the base of this new navy.

"But how do we offer them enough gold that they'll fight against other pirates instead of fat juicy merchant shipping without bankrupting ourselves trying to do so?" asked Cynicius.

[Outofprint]

"But how do we offer them enough gold that they'll fight against other pirates instead of fat juicy merchant shipping without bankrupting ourselves trying to do so?" asked Cynicius.

By not hiring shit load of pirates.

[Elfwine]

By not hiring shit load of pirates.

Its not a matter of a shitload, its just a matter that you have to outbid the alternative lifestyle, and no one became a pirate just because there wasn't a regular navy to join.

This isn't saying it can't possibly work ever - but it would take some doing, and ideally someone very persuasive as the one making the offer to the pirates.

[Outofprint]

Its not a matter of a shitload, its just a matter that you have to outbid the alternative lifestyle, and no one became a pirate just because there wasn't a regular navy to join.

This isn't saying it can't possibly work ever - but it would take some doing, and ideally someone very persuasive as the one making the offer to the pirates.

Experimenting with mercenarys as a stop gap until the proper navey is built is better than doing nothing about raids on merchants.

[Elfwine]

Experimenting with mercenarys as a stop gap until the proper navey is built is better than doing nothing about raids on merchants.

This is true. But putting too much confidence in this idea is not a good idea either.

Making sure to explore it for its worth can't hurt though.

[Outofprint]

This is true. But putting too much confidence in this idea is not a good idea either.

Making sure to explore it for its worth can't hurt though.

Maybe alocating goverment observers to the mercenaries ships could help to keep the pirates honest as well.
Making sure these obsevers are honest as well could be a problem as well.

[Art]

That is how the Saxon majority GOT to Britain in the first place ! Vortigern hired the Saxons to defend against Pictish and Erse/Hibernian/Scoti raids in the FIRST place! What is needed is a LOYAL fleet! NOT pirates! Sorry!

[Sior]

Don't hire Saxon's, Angle's or Jute's you can't trust them!!!!!!

[Elfwine]

Don't hire Saxon's, Angle's or Jute's you can't trust them!!!!!!

Hey. I'm all for having my ancestors failing to take Britain used to be a good thing, but let's be fair here.

Racism isn't cool even towards barbarians.

[robertp6165]

Hey. I'm all for having my ancestors failing to take Britain used to be a good thing, but let's be fair here.

Racism isn't cool even towards barbarians.

I assume you're joking here. :rolleyes:

[Agelastus]

The problem for Britain is that the Classis Britannicus was based in ports on both sides of the Channel; if Ambrosius Aurelianus wants to maintain/restore the fleet structure he's going to get himself sucked into the defence of Northern Gaul from the Franks.

Given the existence in otl of the forces of Aegidius around Soissons at a slightly later date this may not be an entirely bad thing, as it seems that a significant portion of Rome's remaining Gallic/Germanian army congregated in the region across the Channel from Britain (although exactly when is open to question, of course, but given the apparent route of the Alans, Vandals and Sueves this may have occurred quite early in the Fifth Century.)

[Elfwine]

I assume you're joking here. :rolleyes:

Not really. I do think my ancestors in this period are in the "barbarian" category and I do think regarding that as meaning they're all unreliable and bloodthirsty and so on is offensive.

Less developed than Rome? Yes. Definitely. And "primitive" has connotations that get that across less effectively than "barbarian" - this is more about a lack of a literate class of administrators than inferior technology.

[robertp6165]

Not really. I do think my ancestors in this period are in the "barbarian" category and I do think regarding that as meaning they're all unreliable and bloodthirsty and so on is offensive.

Sior didn't say any of that. He said don't hire Anglo-Saxon-Jutish mercenaries, they can't be trusted. And historically, that is absolutely true. Accusing him of racism is absolutely ridiculous.

Less developed than Rome? Yes. Definitely. And "primitive" has connotations that get that across less effectively than "barbarian" - this is more about a lack of a literate class of administrators than inferior technology.

You know, we really don't need Political Correctness infecting discussion of yet another period of history. If you're going to effect to be offended because the Germanic tribes which destroyed Rome are called "barbarians," that's pretty silly.

[Elfwine]

Sior didn't say any of that. He said don't hire Anglo-Saxon-Jutish mercenaries, they can't be trusted. And historically, that is absolutely true. Accusing him of racism is absolutely ridiculous.
[quote]

Were there untrustworthy Anglo-Saxon-Jutes? Definitely. Of course, if you do with Vortigren did, what do you expect to happen? Regardless of who you hire.

Saying that none of them could be trusted kind of is racism. Saying that OTL shows that the policy where they were practically invited to take over was a bad idea is a lot different than saying that one should assume any Anglo-Saxon-Jutish mercenaries are untrustworthy. There are trustworthy and untrustworthy men in all groups.

[quote]
You know, we really don't need Political Correctness infecting discussion of yet another period of history. If you're going to effect to be offended because the Germanic tribes which destroyed Rome are called "barbarians," that's pretty silly.You know, we do need people actually reading the posts of others.

I do think my ancestors in this period are in the "barbarian" category and I do think regarding that as meaning they're all unreliable and bloodthirsty and so on is offensive.

Mentioning Political Correctness here is slightly more silly than a dachshund in a kilt and not nearly as relevant to anything objected to.

What offends me the attitude that "they're all unreliable and bloodthirsty and so on". Those things are found from one end of the fading Empire to another, inside it and outside it. They're not a special quality of Anglo-Saxon-Jutes or even Germanic barbarians.

[Burton K Wheeler]

Hey. I'm all for having my ancestors failing to take Britain used to be a good thing, but let's be fair here.

Racism isn't cool even towards barbarians.

It was a joke. Lighten up and don't derail the thread.

[TheDarkMessiah]

Elfwine, I believe Sions post was tongue in cheek. There is really no need to get offended and accuse him of racism.

EDIT: Heh, awkward.

[Elfwine]

I am perfectly willing to accept that it was so intended, but it did not come off that way - thus my reaction.

But if it was, no harm done except a couple needless posts in response.

Having two mods say so is encouraging, particularly since you're probably much more familiar with him than I am.

[Sior]

Hey. I'm all for having my ancestors failing to take Britain used to be a good thing, but let's be fair here.

Racism isn't cool even towards barbarians.

This is a literal translation of the Latin from the L. Faral (Paris 1929) edition of the text (sections in square brackets [thus] supplied from T. Mommsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Mommsen)'s 1892 edition[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives_(Arthurian)#cite_note-1)):
It happened however after the death of Vortimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortimer), son of King Vortigern, and after the return of Hengist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hengist) with his forces, they called for a false Council, so that they might work sorrow to Vortigern with his army. For they sent legates to ask for peace, that there might be perpetual friendship between them. So Vortigern himself with the elders by birth of his people [considered the matter and carefully thought over what they might do. And the same] opinion was with them all, that they should make peace, and their legates went back and afterwards called together the conference, so that on either side the Britons and Saxons (Brittones et Saxones) should come together as one without arms, so that friendship should be sealed.

And Hengistus ordered the whole of his household that each one should hide his knife (artavum) under his foot in the middle of his shoe. 'And when I shall call out to you and say "Eu nimet saxas" (Hey, draw your swords!), then draw your knives (cultellos) from the soles of your shoes, and fall upon them, and stand strongly against them. And do not kill their king, but seize him for the sake of my daughter whom I gave to him in matrimony, because it is better for us that he should be ransomed from our hands.' And they brought together the conference, and the Saxons, speaking in a friendly way, meanwhile were thinking in a wolvish way, and sociably they sat down man beside man (i.e. Saxon beside Briton). Hengistus, as he had said, spoke out, and all the three hundred elders of King Vortigern were slaughtered, and only he was imprisoned, and was chained, and he gave to them many regions for the ransom of his soul (i.e. life), that is Est Saxum, Sut saxum [, Middelseaxan, with other districts under his control which they named.]

Don't trust a Saxon or turn your back!!!!!
Cymru am Byth

[Elfwine]

So...you are saying that all Saxons can't be trusted because of Hengist and his followers (the ones doing the stabbing)?

:eek:

:mad:

I don't want to derail this further, but this is not a joke or proof of anything on "all Saxons".

[Sior]

So...you are saying that all Saxons can't be trusted because of Hengist and his followers?

:eek:

:mad:

History has not proved me wrong so far!!!!

[robertp6165]

So...you are saying that all Saxons can't be trusted because of Hengist and his followers?

:eek:

:mad:

Are you saying that the Britons simply made the mistake of choosing the WRONG Saxons as their mercenaries, and that there were other Saxon mercenaries standing by, waiting to be hired, who were more trustworthy?

You know, the Anglo-Saxons were my ancestors too. As were the Britons, the Scots, the Picts, the Irish. I daresay in all likelihood, the same is true of Sior. The people of the British Isles are a fairly "mongrel breed" by now, given all the mixing which has taken place over the last 1,500 years. Why is it that you are making such a big deal out of this, when nobody else is bothered by it?

[Elfwine]

History has not proved me wrong so far!!!!

Now you're just asking to have me ask the mods to do something about this. Which I might note I did not do before, because I assumed you were merely exaggerating to make a point. Now I'm seriously thinking you are being a bigot (racist is probably the wrong word).

Are you saying that the Britons simply made the mistake of choosing the WRONG Saxons as their mercenaries, and that there were other Saxon mercenaries standing by, waiting to be hired, who were more trustworthy?


I'm saying that they hired an untrustworthy group, yes. Saying that because one particular leader and some of his followers did this that no Anglo-Saxon-Jutes can be trusted is like saying that because Vortigren was himself a miserable excuse for a leader that the Britons deserved what they got.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that this is how it happened and there were no circumstances provoking otherwise honest men to get revenge this way, because I'm assuming Sior is at least quoting more-or-less honest sources on what happened in this case, whatever he's doing from there.


You know, the Anglo-Saxons were my ancestors too. As were the Britons, the Scots, the Picts, the Irish. I daresay in all likelihood, the same is true of Sior. The people of the British Isles are a fairly "mongrel breed" by now, given all the mixing which has taken place over the last 1,500 years. Why is it that you are making such a big deal out of this, when nobody else is bothered by it?For the same reason I make a big deal about any other distortions of history, particularly those that try to paint people (either individuals or as in cultures) as better or worse than they were.

[Cymraeg]

It had not, thought Niall with a certain amount of wry despair, been a good day. For one thing he had a nasty feeling that this raid wasn’t going to end well. He had just two ships, neither of them particularly new, instead of the five that his father had promised. But then there’d been that trouble with a roving band of warriors from Ulaid, and then that bloody idiot Croinin has been stirring things up with that mad new religion and finally there’d been that storm that had left the largest ship with a substantial hole in its side.

So he’d left late, at a time that he didn’t like that much, with understrength crews and not enough mead. At least they were now approaching the coast of Mon, which was a relief. At one point he hadn’t been sure where in the name of the Crone they were exactly. His father was a better sailor but he was getting old and bent.

He scratched the back of his head carefully and then squinted at the approaching coast. He could see smoke rising from a headland off to his right and he idly wondered who was burning something off by there. Then he turned his attention back to the land ahead of him. He was pretty sure where he was now – there was a good cove a few miles up the coast and a path nearby that led to a village full of fat rich idiots with red slates on the roofs of their houses.

He was therefore feeling more cheerful as he assembled his men by the ships that they had pulled up the beach. He gave them his father’s standard speech about honour and glory and sticking their swords into virgins (hurr hurr hurr) and then led them up the path.

Just as he reached the top of the bluffs he heard a despairing wail and grinned to himself. But just as he was about to joke that the local cowards were wetting themselves he heard a thunder of hooves ahead of him – and then a storm of horsemen slammed into – or rather straight through – his men, hacking them to pieces with their swords. “Fall back to the ships!” he shouted, raising his buckler and sword – but then a man with a crested helmet who seemed massively tall on his horse appeared in front of him and the last thing that Niall ever felt was a terrible pain on the side of his neck.


Corcorix was wiping his sword carefully on a piece of rag as he walked up to Cato. “That didn’t take very long Centurion,” he said in his customary thoughtful (ie: non-battlefield) manner.

“Yes, well, there weren’t that many of them,” Cato replied as he stared at the burning ships in front of them. It had been very lucky – he’d been buying horses from a trader he knew on the great grain isle off the coast when he and his small unit of 15 trainees and Corcorix had seen the new signal fires warning of an incoming raid from Hibernia. Not that it had been much of a raid – two ships and barely 30 men. They’d been smart enough to send a scout ahead of them, but that scout had been relieving himself against a tree when Corcorix had lopped first his right arm and then his head clean off. As for the main lot, they’d been easily taken care of. It had been his first real fight using the stapeda and he was still surprised at the amount of difference they made. Alright, he’d always made sure that his sword was good and sharp, but normally it was a bit harder to hack someone’s head off. The Hibernian leader’s head had come off like his neck without badly jarring Cato’s arm at all.

And Cato’s men had suffered exactly one casualty – a young lad who’d have a bit of a scar on his shin from his own sword after suffering from an excess of enthusiasm after killing his first enemy.

Cato took a deep breath and then closed his eyes.

“Are you alright Centurion?” asked Corcorix after a few moments.

“Fine, Legionary, just fine,” Cato said with a frown. “When you get to be a non-commissioned officer you’ll realise that writing reports are the bane of your bloody life as well. Never too early to start thinking about the bloody things.” He opened his eyes again. “Right, back to Segontium. And then to Deva and the First Cohort.”

[Elfwine]

Yay, an update.

Too bad in a way Niall had to die, but its not like we'd have wanted him to stay around and cause more trouble.

And Cato is being as enjoyably (and lovably)...whatever you call it. That "I'm not a Cynic, never went into that philosophy stuff. It was all Greek to me." kind of humor-like quality.

:D

And darn good at what he does. 15 men vs. 30 with no casualties for the 15...this is the stuff that makes Rome Better Than You. Along with the reason why, but we already celebrated that, so I'm celebrating him being able to use that for all its worth.

[Art]

And I HAD NOT known until recently that the Saxon Shore fortess system was also over in Gaul at the same time . . . Does everyone know that Amorica will in the next two generations, be so filled with British refugees that it will be renamed (Brittany), Little Britain? And what about allying with Aegidius, Magister Militum of Gaul, or Stilicho?



Regarding the last post . . . of (Catos Cavalry) WOW . . . It reminds me VERY strongly of the beginning of the second book of the Camulod Chronicles/Dream of Eagles, “The Singing Sword”. If no one objects, I will post a bit of the beginning of “The Singing Sword” I like the fact that Cato and Aurelianus are “learning on the job” how to fight as a cavalry unit. I have to say, I have, from a young age, found the whole mythos of the “Knight” and mounted warriors, especially heavy cavalry, to the detriment of light cavalry/horse archers/ any other units completely unjustified. One of the real problems the Roman Empire had was that its armies were just too slow, top-heavy, and segmented to really deal with the Parthian/Persian threat to the east, and the Germanic resurgence in both the east and west. Britain has a chance to pick and choose what to keep and what to discard. . . If trade can be kept open, and the cities of Britain preserved from both sack from without and stagnation, starvation and internal strife, then a British state can start making the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages FAR less bloody and preserve both Celtic Christianity and Pelagianism from being on the outside of Europe. You also have an opportunity to take over Britanny and ally with the Gallic landowners against the Franks!

[MrP]

I also lament the death of Niall, namesake of my brother! Nice update, old boy. :)

[Claudius]

Poor Niall! With 1500 years of Irish butterflies doubtless I will never exist in this TL's future. :D

More seriously, I believe that I recall that late Roman Britain suffered from the fragmenting effects of great land-owning magnates. Such men refused to pay taxes, preferring to defend what was theirs rather than contributing to common good. It will be interesting to see how Aurelianus deals with this class. If he fails to do so, he may lack the resources to create the cohorts he will need to save Britannia

[Elfwine]

It would be interesting to compare what Britannia tries vs. what the ERE did OTL (which may be the same in this one), as that was a definite success story - it fell as what made it strong rotted, not from a bad system being devised to begin with.

British themes....I like this idea. I really do. Not sure how practical that is with the land Aurelianus has to give away though.

[stubear1012]

I like the fact that there is some much realism in this thread. I am sure that as the legends grows about this encounter, the number of raiders will grow and grow. But what was written looks like what actual could have happened in terms of the numbers, words, and events. The comments about writing reports is so very true.

Please keep posting!!!

stubear1012

[Mostlyharmless]

Not really. I do think my ancestors in this period are in the "barbarian" category and I do think regarding that as meaning they're all unreliable and bloodthirsty and so on is offensive.

Less developed than Rome? Yes. Definitely. And "primitive" has connotations that get that across less effectively than "barbarian" - this is more about a lack of a literate class of administrators than inferior technology.

Might it be that the difference of religion meant that the Saxon mercencaries and their employers could not swear an oath that both parties would regard as binding? However, politics in even Christian tribes such as the Ostrogoths seemed to be very treacherous around this period. In fact I wouldn't have wanted to trust anyone Roman or barbarian and perhaps that was one reason that civilization collapsed.

[Elfwine]

Might it be that the difference of religion meant that the Saxon mercencaries and their employers could not swear an oath that both parties would regard as binding? However, politics in even Christian tribes such as the Ostrogoths seemed to be very treacherous around this period. In fact I wouldn't have wanted to trust anyone Roman or barbarian and perhaps that was one reason that civilization collapsed.

It might be, but it wouldn't apply to Saxons more than any other pagans.

And it seems to be spiraling downward from that certainly.

[Claudius]

Bumpity bump

[DuQuense]

Poor Niall! With 1500 years of Irish butterflies doubtless I will never exist in this TL's future
?Who is -err Was Niall? ?Someone historical, or just random name for character?

[robertp6165]

?Who is -err Was Niall? ?Someone historical, or just random name for character?

Niall of the Nine Hostages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages), most likely. Although the accepted dates for said Niall place him a bit before the time of this story.

[Cash]

Bumpity bump.

Why did Cato burn the ships? Wouldn't they have value either as booty to be sold or transportation to be retained by the Legion?

[Cymraeg]

Sorry for the delay in updating. Real life has been rather tiring of late.


Londinium was just as Aurelianus remembered it, although he noticed that there was a degree of worry on the faces of many of the Gaulish merchants in the streets, and that some of the shops near the basilica were empty of goods. As he climbed the stairs to the main entrance of the Basilica, he looked about consideringly. On the whole trade seemed to be still thriving, but if the Gauls were worried then something was wrong somewhere.

Sighing quietly at the addition of yet another thing to be looked into he walked into the Basilica. Strictly speaking they should be in the Praetorium, but no-one could find Gaius Decidoratus again, so he was either getting drunk in his villa to the south again, or he was getting drunk in one of the wine shops in the city. That and complaining about how nasty everyone was being to him. Aurelianus scowled at the memory of the last time he’d met the drunken idiot. Then he stopped scowling and smoothed his expression as he recognised the group of figures standing in the corridor up ahead.

“My dear Aurelianus,” the tallest of the group drawled as he noticed the approaching Aurelianus. “How delightful to see you.” He held his hand out and Aurelianus shook it briefly, noticing the silver wristband that shone at it peaked out from the other man’s sleeve.

“Vitalis,” Aurelianus said with a joviality that he knew the other man knew he didn’t feel. “You look well.”

Vitalis smiled and then gestured to his right. “You know my son of course.”

“Good to see you again Vitalinus,” he said, successfully suppressing the need to pull out his dagger and rip the little snake’s chest open to see if his heart actually did beat or not.

“Marcus Ambrosius Aurelianus,” the young man said, nodding coolly. “How was your trip from Deva?”

“Good thank you,” he replied. Then he heard the sound of boots behind him and he turned to see Poplicala striding down the corridor and looking highly uncomfortable in a toga. “Why the hell do we still wear these things?” he muttered under his breath to Aurelianus.

“Tradition, Marcus, tradition.”

Poplicala glowered at him and then nodded curtly to the Vitali. “Gentlemen.”

“Marcus Valerius Poplicala,” Vitalis greeted him with a smug smile, before gesturing into the room behind them. “Well, shall we join the throng?”

He was, of course, being facetious. The throng was instead a small gathering of some of the most important people on the island. Decidivatus was talking quietly to Tupilius and Furiuis, whilst the tall man with the shock of red hair standing to one side could only be Cornelius Felix, whom legend had it was distantly related to the long-dead dictator Sulla.

The only man in the room wearing a military tunic was, of course, Gaius Marcus Belgicus. He was sitting at the table stiffly, looking slightly lost.

“Behold, our beloved would-be leader,” Vitalis whispered just loudly for Aurelianus and Poplicala to hear. “Odd, where’s his shadow Gratianus?”

Aurelianus smiled quietly to himself. “I did hear that he was rather busy. Duty called.”

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There appeared to be a Goth living in his head, or that was what it felt like. Gods, er, god, er whatever the hell he was supposed to be worshipping at the moment, his head hurt. His stomach seemed to be swooping in mid-air as well. Urgghh. He lay there on the bed for a long moment and then tried to piece together where he was and what he had been doing.

There had been wine – that was a safe bet. Unwatered wine unless he missed his guess. Oh and there had been someone else there, he had a vague memory of talking to someone. He remembered getting very emotional about something. His stomach lurched again and he came perilously close to vomiting everywhere.

Something wasn’t right. Slowly he got to his feet and waited until the Goth stopped careering around the inside of his skull in a racing chariot with blades stuck on the wheels. Then he lurched across the room and grabbed for the door. Something was wrong with the floor, it seemed to be trying to rear up at him and he frowned again. Then he took a deep breath and opened the door and looked out. After a long moment he closed the door again and then reeled over to sit on the bed.

If he thought really, really hard he could vaguely remember a face. Oh. Aurelianus, that dried up husk. He’d had a letter with him. Memory gushed back suddenly and then he darted for the door again. Yes, he’d been right the first time. He was on a ship. Heading north. And if he remembered correctly then he, Quintus Gratianus, had volunteered to be the next military adviser for the Votadini, between the Walls. All thanks to Aurelianus, a barrel of Gaulish wine and that bloody letter asking for help.

He suddenly found himself wishing for more wine.

[Elfwine]

Very nice.

I love this sentence:

There appeared to be a Goth living in his head, or that was what it felt like.

You have a very elegant way with words.

[Art]

here is part of Chapter one of Roma Mater, the first book of The King of Ys Quartet . In it, Magnus Maximus is talking with Gratillonius about Rome and what needs to be done.— Part Two —




The close-packed buildings of the strongpoint shaded streets and turned the lanes between into tunnels of cold and gloom. Nontheless several men were passing time off watch with a dice game on the verandah of their barrack. But they were Tungri, auxiliaries such as formed the permanent garrisons of the Wall; regulars only arrived in emergencies like this year's. Well wrapped in furs, the barbarians doubtless found the dry air a blessed change from their native marshlands, Their speech went croaking and hawking throuhg a quiet otherwise broken by little more than footfalls, althopuhg those rang loud enough on frozen earth.


Page 4


Entering on the west, Gratillonius must pass the headquarters block standing sheer around three sides of its courtyard. He halted to salute the basilica, for it held the legionary shrine and standards, not his legion true, but equally Rome's. The sentries saluted him in their turn. The smartness of it pleased, now when the Turngri had reminded him of the slovenly ways he found when his vexillation first came here. Maximus had done marvels in restoring discipline. To be sure, Gratillonius though, the long campaign helped; poor soldiers were apt to become dead ones.

Memory ranged across the months that were past: the march up country through springtime rains to a stone wonder he had never seen before; settling in, getting to know the hills and heaths, exploring what often sleazy pleasures the civilian villages had to offer; shamefaced purification before the sought the Mithraeum, but then, for no good reason, that he could see to this day, his elevation in grade—well, then said he had fought valiantly, but that hardly sufficed, and most likely it was that pious Parnesius had recommended him to the Father, and after all, the congregation had grown so pitifully small—


Page 5

The warring itself was somehow less vivid. It had been an endlessness of expiditions from this base to seek whatever band of painted Picti or gaudy Scoti had been reported, of weather wet or hot, of troubles with supply trains and troubles among the men such as a centurion must handle, of having them shovel trenches and ramparts for emcampments they would demolish the next dawn, of finally––most times––coming upon the enemy and going to work, of the dead afterward and the wounded, the wounded. . . . You did what you and the surgeons could for your own, and tried to keep your men from being needlessly cruel when they cut the throats of tall dark highlanders and fair-skinned warriors from over the water. There was no safe way of bringing prisoners to a slave market, and you could not risk that any would recover from his injuries. You had seen too many homesteads plundered and burnt, slain men, ravished women who wept for children carried off because the Scoti did do a brisk trade in slaves, and this was not only north of the Wall, among tribes friendly to Rome, but south of it, in territories thinly peopled but still subject to Caesar. The foe came around every defence in their leather coracles. So as leaves withered and fell, Gratillonius killed his last opponent (hail rattled on helmets, its pallor across the ground made blood spurt doubly red)and Britannia lay at peace. But thus it had been again and again in the past, and surely would be in the future.

He curbed his mind, squared his shoulders, and strode onward. Forebodings were foolishness. The truth was that Maximus had prevailed, had reaped os widely among the wild men that they would not soon come back, and had something to tell an infantryman who was chafing at the sameness of garrison life. What better omen than getting word on the holiest day of the year.



The praetorium was almost as large as the principia. When Gratillonius identified himself, the guard called a man to guide him. Inside, the warmth of a hypocaust radiated from tiled floors; frescos on the walls glowed with flowers, fruits, beasts, Homeric Gods and heroes,; more servants that soldiers passed by. But such was unusual, Gratillonius knew. His own commandant's house in the base as Isca Silurum made this one on the far frontier look impoverished. Maximus had the reputation of living austerely wherever he was.



Page 6



Another legionary of the Sixth stood at a certain door. Upon learning who had appeared, he opened it and waited at attention until bidden to speak. “Gaius Valerius Gratillonius, centurion of the seventh cohort, Second Legion Augusta,” he the announced, and gestured the newcomer in. The door closed. Gratillonius saluted.

Light, straggling bleak through a glazed window, got help from lamps. It showed lavishness neglected. Two men sat at a table whereon were beakers, bescribbed notebooks of thin-scraped wood, a map drawn on parchment, an inkwell and quill a waxed tablet and stylus. One man, big, young, freckle-faced, was clearly a native. He had donned Roman garb for this occasion, but a mustache flared, his ruddy hair was bound in a knot, a golden torque gleamed around his neck. His conpanion, whom Gratillonius knew by sight, was the Duke of the Britains.

Magnus Clemens Maximus hailed from the uplands of Hispania Tarraconensis. It showed in his height and leannessm hatchet features, olive skin, hair stiff and black and slightly grizzled. It also softened his Latin as he said, “At ease, centurion. Take off your cloak and helmet.” The steel of him was in his voice though, and his eyes were always probing.

To the tribesman he added: “This is the whom I have in mind to lead your escort.” To Gratillonius: “You have the honor of meeting Cunedag, a prince among the Votadini and Rome's most loyal ally. Your assignment will be to accompany him and his following to the Ordovices, on your way back with your century.” Smiling: “Look weel you two. I trust you both like what you see.”

Gratillonius sped through memory. Dwelling north of the Wall, the Votadini had formerly been subjects and, after the tide of empire ebbed southward, had stayed on reasonable good terms. Indeed, their leading families claimed Roman descent and often bestowed Roman names. He had not met Cunedag before, but had heard of him as a useful warlord throughout the year's campaigning.


page 7


The chieftain's gaze searched over the centurion. It found a man of twenty-five, medium tall for a Briton––which made him overtop most Italians––and robustly built. The visage of Gratillonius was broad and square, clean-shaven, with craggy nose and wide-set gray eyes. His complexion was fair, his close-cropped hair auburn. He moved like a cat. When he spoke, the tone was deep and rather harsh.

“You have won a high name, “ said Cunedag in his own language. “I think we shall travel well together.”

“Thank you, lord. I will do my best,” replied Gratillonius. He used the tongue of the Dumnonii, which was not too alien for the Northerner to understand and chuckle at.

“Good,” said Maximus, sensing the accord. “Prince, we have talked a long while and you must be weary. The centurion and I have matters to discuss which can scarcely interest you. Why do you not seek your guestroom, or wherever else you like, and rest until we meet at the evening meal?”

Cunedag, an intelligent barbarian, took the hint and uttered a stately goodbye. A gong summoned an attendant to lead him out and a second man to bring Gratillonius a goblet of wine and water. The officer took the vacated stool at his commander's word and peered across the clutter on the table. His pulse drummed anew.

Maximus stroked fingers across his prow of a chin. “Well, soldier,” he said, “you must be wondering how we even knew who you are, let alone found a rather special task for you.”
“The Duke surely has many ears,” Gratillonius ventured.
Page 8


Maximus shrugged. “Fewer than he could use. In this case, you've become a friend of Parnesius, and it happens that I am acquainted with his father and have kept my eye on the son. Parnesius praised you to me: less your valor, which any dolt could show, but skill and coolness overriding a temperament hot by nature, a talent for improvising, a gift of leadership.” He sighed. “That is a gift, you know a mystery. God's hand touches a man, and that man turns into one whom others will follow though it be past the gates of hell. Would I had more like that to follow me!”

A chill tingle passed through Gratillonius. The provinces of the Empire bred men who claimed the purple by right of the sword, and Britannia was among them. Here the legions had first hailed great Constantinus, almost a hundred years ago. More recently there had been Magnentius, rising in Gallia but born in Britannia and supported by Britons; his failure and its terrible aftermath need not discourage later dreams. As warfare ended and winter closed in, legionaries had time to think, wonder, mutter . . . fifteen years was a long time to keep as able a leader as Maximus off on the frontiers . . . he declared that he held the Sixth in reserve at Eboracum against Saxon attack, and maybe this was true, but it was likewise true that the Sixth had come to be his adoring own . . . the real rulers of the West were not the co-Emperors but a barbarian, a woman, and a churchman . . . the hour might be overpast for putting a man of proven metal on the throne . . .

Maximus's voice levelled. “I've kept your detachment, together with that from the Twentieth and all the sundry oddments, on the Wall to make sure our pacification was nailed down. The Picti wouldn't worry me by themselves. Their little quarrelsome packs will never do more alone than snap up some loot, take a drubbing, and scatter back to lick their wounds. But lately the Scoti have been leagued with them and––the Scoti are a different breed of wolf.” He scowled. “Somebody in Hivernia has been behind the last onslaught, somebody powerful and shrewd. I would not have put it past him to deliver a surprise blow just when we thought we were safely finished.”


page 9


Maximus tossed off a laugh and a swallow from his cup. “Well, he didn't. Now he couldn't possibly before spring, and one may doubt he'll care to try again that soon. So the vexillations can return to their legions: a cold trek, but not one that I think they'll mind. On your way, Gratillonius, I want you to guard Cunedag on his. At Deva you and your century will part company not only with the Valeria Victrix troops, but with your fellows of the Augusta. Proceed with Cunedag into Ordovicia, stop where he wants, and do whatever is necessary to establish him.”

“Would the Duke explain why?” Gratillonius requested.
“It won't likely be a severe task,” Maximus said. “I have had negotiators there, and on the whole, the clans will welcome him. See here. Stationed where you are, you must know how law and order have been breaking down in those parts, leaving people near helpless before the Scoti, not to mention home-grown brigands. I can't have that sort of thing at my back when––“ He broke off. “Cunedag posesses a fairly sound grasp of both military and political principles. He'll take charge. Your century shouldn't have a great deal to do, nor need to linger long, before it can return to Isca Silurum.”

“I understand, sir,” Gratillonius said. “In part.”
“Never fear, you'll know more before you leave. Half a dozen men, both Roman and tribal, are set to instruct you. Meanwhile,” and Maximus smiled,” you can get to know Cunedag better this evening at supper.”

Gratillonius stiffened. He must summon up as much of himself as he had ever needed in combat in order to say: “I regret that I cannot accept the Duke's invitation.”

Maximus raised his brows. “What?”

“Sir, this day is sacred. I may only take part in the feast of the God.”

“Oh.” Maximus was silent for a space. When he spoke, it was like the winter outside. “I had forgotten. You are pagan.”

page 10




It prickled in Gratillonius's armpits. “Sir, I do not worship Jupiter, if that's what you mean.”

“But Mithras. Which is forbidden. For your soul's good, understand. You'll burn forever after you die, unless you take the Faith.”

Gratillonius bridled. “The Duke has not yet seen fit to close our temples.”

Maximus sighed. “As you will, As you will. For now, at least. After all, Parnesius is obstinate too. But he serves Rome well, like you, and I dare hope, me. Come, let us drink to the well-being of our Mother.”

The wine was excellent, unlike what was issued the troops. Yet its sweetness dimmed on Gratillonius's tongue as Maximus frowned, lowered his beaker, stared into the shadows that filled a corner, and murmured: “Little enough well-being is hers any longer. You've never seen Rome, the City, have you? I have. Our Mother is fallen on evil days. There are more ghosts than living folk in her streets, and the Emperor reigns from Mediolanum, Augusta Treverorum or . . . anywhere except poor, plundered Rome. The Emperor of the West, that is. No today the joint Emperors of the West, the first a plaything of his Frankish general, the second of his mother, and the West divided between them. And even the Augustus of the East feels Constantinople tremble beneath him. It is but four or five years since the Goths rode down the Romans at Adrianople. Have you heard about that, centurion? The Emperor Valens himself died on the field. His successor Theodosious must needs buy the alliance of those barbarians. Arian heretics, thise that are not still outright heathen––“ He straghtened. His voice clanged forth: “By the Great name of God, Rome shall not suffer this! Mother, your hour of deliverance draws near.”

page 11

Then immediately he was again the self contained man whose patience had forged victory. He raised his cup, sipped, regarded Gratillonius over the rim, a smiled afresh before he said, “Be not alarmed, centurion. I've no wish to scare off the few trustworthy men left me. Rather I've work in mind for you, more challenging and more glorious than the more delivery of a leader and his warriors to some ragged hillfolk. Indeed, that assignment is essentially a final test of you. If you carry it off as well as I expect––“

Leaning forward: “I've made inquiries about you, of course, since Parnesius's mention of you drew my attention your way. Now I wish to talk freely with you, explore what sort of person you are.”
“A very ordinary soldier, sir,” Gratillonius replied uneasily.

Maximus laughed, straightened on his stool, crossed shank over knee. Such putting aside dignity, by the Duke himself, caught at Gratillonius's heart. Eagerness rekindled in him. “Oh, no, you don't lad!” Maximus crowed. “You'll never make that claim stick, not after this summer, and I hear you did well in the South, earlier.”

“That was nothing unusual, really, sir. Sometimes Scoti or Saxons came visiting, and we went out to meet them. Otherwise it was plain patrol and camp duty.”

“Um-m, I've heard of a fire in town, and a young legionary who risked his life to rescue the children from a burning house. I've also heard hiw that same fellow gets along well with natives, whether they be his familiar Silures and Belgae or the half-tame dwellers in these parts.”

“Well, I'm of Britannic blood myself, sir.”
“Unusual–– No, you are a regular, of course, not an auxiliary. Almost a namesake of the Emperor Gratianus.”

page 12

The centurion felt his muscles grow tense. Likening his family to that Scythian-loving sluggard! “Pure chance, sir,” he stated. “My folk are Belgae, living near Aquae Sulis since before Claudius. Naturally, we've long been civilized, and a forebear of mine gave the name a Latin form, but we've kept our ties to the land.”

Maximus seemed a trifle amused. “Have you no ancestors who were not Belgae? That would be strange.”

“Of course there were some, sir. Soldiers stationed in Britannia, Italians, a Dacian, a Nervian. And a couple of Gauls, though they were female, brides brought home.”

Maximus nodded, once more grave. “Sound stock throughout. You are of the curial class, I understand.”
Gratillonius grimaced. Maximus hastened to bespeak happier matters. “Your grandfather had a distinguished military career, did he not? And your father went into trade out of Abonaem and prospered. That took real seamanship––those tides in the estuary––and fighting skill, too, when pirate infest the waters.”
The Duke must have queried Parnesius closely indeed, to dig out things casually related over a span of months. The voice quickened. “His main businesss was with Amorica, true? And he took you along on his voyages.”
“Well, between the ages of twelve and sixteen, when I joined the army, I used to go with him, sir, Gratillonius replied.
“Tell me about it.”
“Oh, we'd coast along Britannia, taking on cargo here and there, then cross over to a Gallic port––maybe as far east as Gesoriacum––and work our way west, stopping off to trade. Sometimes we'd leave the ship and travel inland to markets in places like Condate Redonum or Vorgium––“ Gratillonius shook himself. Those joyful years were far behind him and his father both.

Page 13

Maximus's tone sharpened. “Did you ever visit Ys?”
“What?” Gratillonius was startled. “Why . . . why, no. Does anybody any longer?
“We shall see. You appear to have an ear for language. Did you acquire fluency in any Gallic tongues? I'm interested especially in whatever they use in the western end of Armorica.”
“I got along, sir. That was quite a while ago, and I haven't returned since.” Gratillonius began to realize what Maximus was driving at. The hair stirred on his neck and arms. “But I ought to regain in pretty quickly. Those dialects aren't too different from the southern Britanni, and I had a Dumnonic nurse when I was small.” Awkwardly: “She stayed on in the house for my younger siblings, and we used to talk in her speech, she and I, till I enlisted––and afterward, when I was home on leave. I do hope old Docca is still alive.”
The wistfullness flickered out, for Maximus was saying low, while he stared before him as if his vision could pierce the wall and fly away over Europe: “Excellent. The Lord is gracious to me, a sinner. It may actually be Providence that you are an infidel; for there could be things yonder that are nor for a Christian man to deal with.”
A fire leaped up in the breast of Gratillonius.

[Cash]

Has this TL died? Hope not. It was interesting, with good writing.

[Berserker]

I hope it is still alive:p

[Sior]

Ble ydy 'n update fyn?

[Ganesha]

Has this TL died? Hope not. It was interesting, with good writing.

I hope it is still alive:p

Seconded. filler

[Elfwine]

Seconded. filler

Thirded. Because we can always use more tales of heroism.

[Incognitia]

So, Cymraeg.

An interesting thread here.

I like Cato, though (perhaps understandably) he has receded into the background a little as Aurelianus has taken centre stage. Unfortunately Aurelianus is a bit of a cypher at this point, whereas we have a much better sense of Cato as a character. Narratively, I think that we could do with either focussing on things more from Cato's perspective, or seeing a little further inside Aurelianus' head - what are his motivations? what is his background? that sort of jazz.

Historically, this is not my period; however thus far it sounds quite plausible. Certainly, a stirrup is an idea which seems so simple in retrospect, and yet took centuries to develop. Equally, trying to build something in a crumbling empire, the sensible thing is to start relatively small, and build from a stable base. Those who grab for the imperial crown will often reach it, but then find they hold the exact same problems as the last wearer of it.

[Art]

The main goal that has to be accomplished, is that Britain itself must be held, and the main cities maintained, meaning that the aqueducts work, the sewers do not overflow, and that people do not use stones from the city walls for building their houses. All of this means money, and engineers to do all of these things, and people to assist the engineers. That will be QUITE unpopular with the people who will likely be the ones most able to pay the taxes in either coins or in kind: the large landowners and the middle-sized ones. The large landowners will be the Eqestrians and the Senators, and they will be the people who have estates in the countryside, as well as a townhouse or villa in some city. These will be the people who may have supported Magnus Maximus in his bid for the Western Empire. The Western Roman Empire taxed the Curials, as well as the Equestrians, into the ground. Diocletian had set up a blasted CASTE system to keep the Roman Empire solvent. A son COULD NOT decide to go into another profession than his fathers, even if he wanted to. Cato and Aurelianus understand that Britain itself, and the Romano-British people, need these funds, or else Britain will fall. They probably can pull it off, because Rome leaving is both good and bad. Bad in the short run because Rome defended Britain, but good because they can use the independence to create a real state with all of Rome’s virtues and none of her vices. Cyraeg, please continue this TL!

[Claudius]

Cyraeg, please continue this TL!

Please do, Cyraeg. Exams will soon be over and you have generated a fan base with your excellent writing so please don't leave us hanging!

[Gousting]

The lack of comment by Cyraeg is a bit disturbing as its not like he has any shortage of questions to answer.

[Cymraeg]

I'd like to apologise to everyone for the length of time it's taken me to update, let alone comment. Unfortunately I've had a severe attack of life. The company I work for has gone raving mad and seems to think that its press relations can be dealt with by its main office five time zones away. As a result I'm looking for another job before the hammer comes down on me. I'll try and update this week, once I get less bloody furious. Apologies again.

[Art]

I and others were just wondering if this TL was finished. Since it is NOT finished, that is good news! P. S. What did you think of my posting part of Roma Mater?

[Hero of Canton]

I'd like to apologise to everyone for the length of time it's taken me to update, let alone comment. Unfortunately I've had a severe attack of life. The company I work for has gone raving mad and seems to think that its press relations can be dealt with by its main office five time zones away. As a result I'm looking for another job before the hammer comes down on me. I'll try and update this week, once I get less bloody furious. Apologies again.

I know what that is like. May the gods rot them all!

Hero of Canton

[Berserker]

I'd like to apologise to everyone for the length of time it's taken me to update, let alone comment. Unfortunately I've had a severe attack of life. The company I work for has gone raving mad and seems to think that its press relations can be dealt with by its main office five time zones away. As a result I'm looking for another job before the hammer comes down on me. I'll try and update this week, once I get less bloody furious. Apologies again.

;)take a long as you need

[Cash]

I'd like to apologise to everyone for the length of time it's taken me to update, let alone comment. Unfortunately I've had a severe attack of life. The company I work for has gone raving mad and seems to think that its press relations can be dealt with by its main office five time zones away. As a result I'm looking for another job before the hammer comes down on me. I'll try and update this week, once I get less bloody furious. Apologies again.

Real life has a way of interrupting at the worst moments.

BTW, you're quite right -- it is flat out impossible for press relations to be handled from that far away. I've faced trying to deal with it from the press side, and it's frustrating, awkward, frustrating, time-consuming, and did I mention frustrating. It's a situation practically guaranteed to produce antagonistic press relations, inaccuracies, and, oh yes, frustration.

[Claudius]

All is cool Cymraeg. I'm glad to hear you are OK and await your nest posting with anticipation

[Hero of Canton]

I and others were just wondering if this TL was finished. Since it is NOT finished, that is good news! P. S. What did you think of my posting part of Roma Mater?

Loved the "King of Ys" series and it is nice to meet another fan! I consider it the best work Poul and Karen Anderson and commend it to all fans of AHC.

http://www.amazon.com/King-Ys-Poul-Anderson/dp/0671877291

Hero of Canton

[stubear1012]

As one who checks this time line every day at lunch, I am glad to wait for another update. I hae greatly enjoyed the quality of this time line and dont mind waiting for another great update!

[Art]

Thanks for saying so. I have read a LOT of books that are hard to find, including the Ys series. I had it once, but I STUPIDLY bartered it for other books. I have finally got the full series again. I have seen reviews that make it seem sexist. As if it COULD be, given he wrote it with his wife! I am a HUGE King Arthur and Roman Britain fan. If there is a historical fiction book about Roman Britain, I have probably read it.

[Sior]

http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks (http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks)

A good source of free PDF history, engineering etc books!

A good number of books dealing with the Arthurian myths and the end of Romano Britain.

[Sior]

Cymraeg, if the bosses are still giving you a hard time tell them;

"Dor dy fys yn dy dîn a chwibanna"

Looking forward to the resumption of this time line.

[Cymraeg]

Right, time to get this thing back on the road - after all I'm now at home on gardening leave due to a nice redundancy package. :cool: Apologies to everyone again - the past month has been the purest form of hell I can imagine. It's all over now though, so onwards and upwards!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As meetings went, this one was right up there with the time that he’d discovered who his real father was, Aurelianus thought savagely. It had so far been long and largely pointless. The salient features of it, so far could be summarised as follows: there was a faction that wanted to defend Britannia (himself, Poplicala, Decidivatus), there was a faction that wanted to appeal to the Emperor to send a Legion or two (Tupilius and Furiuis), there was a faction that didn’t know what to do at all (Cornelius Felix) and there was a faction that was operating according to its own mysterious agenda (Vitalis and his son).

Oh and there was the faction that wanted to strip the entire island of every last fighting man, cross over to Gaul, smite the barbarians, march on Rome, smite the Emperor’s adviser Stilicho and then perhaps become Emperor after ‘persuading’ the present Emperor to retire. This faction was currently made up of just one man, Marcus. The problem, for him at least, was that he wasn’t convincing the others. As a result he was sitting in his chair looking faintly baffled as to why his excellent plan (excellent to him, anyway) wasn’t convincing anyone else. Frankly the others were treating him with cautious contempt. He was, after all, still a man with military connections.

“The fact remains,” Poplicala said as he leant forwards and jabbed at the table with his forefinger, “That the raids are continuing. The Wall is vulnerable. The Brigantes are worried about the Painted People to the north of the Wall, and we need more men to man the Wall now that the Eagles have gone. The Hibernii are also restless. We’ve seen more raids on the coast to the West. And then there’s the Saxons.”

A silence fell for a moment. There was always the threat from the Saxons. Kill one Sea Wolf and you often found two more sneaking up behind, often drunk and in search of easy plunder.

“We cannot spare the men to help out in Gaul. All we have we need here – and we need to train more men. And more cavalry.”

“Yes,” drawled Vitalis, “Your interesting new cavalry with their interesting new additions to their saddles.”

“What?” asked Marcus, looking baffled and disinterested and angry, which was quite an achievement. “What do saddles have to do with anything?”

“It’s a long story,” said Aurelianus carefully, doing his best not to rise to the bait. “But put simply our cavalry is now far more effective. We can use it to protect our shores from these raids – provided that we have sufficient warning of their arrival. We need a fleet to protect our shores as well.”

“A fleet?” Tupilius looked around the table in confusion. “Are we not running ahead of ourselves here? We talk of armies and fleets and cavalry as if we’re not a part of the Empire anymore.”

Aurelianus happened to be looking at Vitalis as Tupilius talked and he caught the look that the man exchanged with his son. It was a caustic ‘see what kind of idiots we’re dealing with’ kind of look that came and went in a flash.

“I think,” he said, “That the Empire has its own problems at the moment. By looking to our own resources – and defences - we won’t weaken the Empire by forcing it to divert valuable resources to help us.”

“What do you suggest?” Decidivatus asked carefully.

“We examine both of those areas. What are our resources and what is the state of our defences. What do we need? What do we have? I mean, what is the current state of the Classis Britannica? How many Marines are still based in Dubris and Portus Adurni? How many men do we still have in the forts of the Saxon Shore?”

“All good questions,” Vitalis said thoughtfully. “I think that we should return to our various areas of responsibility and then reconvene in, say, a month?”

A majority of the men around the table nodded curtly – even Cornelius Felix, who looked relieved at being given something to easily agree with.

“But-” Marcus started to say, before being cut off by Poplicala, who stood up.

“We’ve come to an agreement. This meeting is over.”

“My plan-”

“Doesn’t have a leg to stand on. It would destroy everything we’re building here. Can’t you see that?”

Marcus looked around the table as more and more people, including Aurelianus, stood up and moved away from the table. Seeing no support from anyone he slumped slightly. “Very well,” he said bitterly. “So, Stilicho wins.”

“No, we win,” Aurelianus said almost gently. “Others will have to deal with Stilicho.” And then he thought about the message – and package – that he’d sent to Gaul.

[Domoviye]

Very nice work, I'm glad to see you're back at this.
And congrats on the nice redundancy package.

[Josephus]

I very much endorse reading History of Britain 407-597, by Fabio Barbieri. http://www.facesofarthur.org.uk/fabio/contents.htm

It's very well written and believable, at least to an amateur like me, with a fairly unique approach to interpreting the sources.

For example he argues that Vortigern wasn't a real title, but a mockery of one (possibly Vortimer/Vortamorix-'Highest King'), both as a ethnic slur (Britons being perceived as inferior to Romans) and a social one, tigern/teyrn being underkings, still kings but by nature inferior.

As for the Saxons, of course they rebelled. They saved the British from the Picts, and when that danger was over, they tried to weasel out of their obligations to feed the Saxons, and told them (bright idea) to just go away. The Moor has done his duty, the Moor can go.

[Cash]

Very glad to see this story active again, although I'm sorry to hear the reason. I assume you're job hunting. Hope it goes well for you.

[Berserker]

Good your Back, because this update was AWSOME;)

[stubear1012]

Good luck with your job hunt!

[Hero of Canton]

DELIGHTED to see another great update!

I wish you the very best of luck with the job search. Working for putacabronedelachigada bosses seriously sucks. May your ex-bosses be eaten of worm.

Hero of Canton

[Cash]

Hope to see this TL active again soon. Really excellent writing and characters. How goes it in RL, Cymraeg?

[Cash]

a hopeful bumpity bump

[Sior]

Cymraeg this is an unashamed BUMP! Pull you finger out man!

[Cymraeg]

Sorry about the delay folks. I have a few weeks and then the interview for the dream job, so fingers crossed. I'll be updating more often though.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flavius Stilicho, was technically speaking, just the present Consul of Rome. In reality, however, due to the fact that the Emperor Honorius was something of an idiot, he was effectively the power behind the throne.

Right now, unfortunately, the power behind the throne was being bored out of his mind as he watched the most one-sided chariot race in the history of chariot racing. The red team was out in front, mostly due to the fact that the blue team had made a total mess of their last lap, the white team’s horses had disagreed violently with each other and the green team’s driver had had some kind of fit and was currently on a ledge about 15 feet off the ground. Watching him climb onto it had been amusing. Watching a number of people try to talk him down from it was also amusing. Oh and watching the crowd shower him with bits of fruit (thus undoing all the good work that the previous lot of people had done) was even more amusing.

He stirred slightly in his chair and then stared across the Circus Maximus. He had a lot on his mind at the moment and the burden seemed to be growing instead of lessening. Alaric was hopefully still in Illyricum, probably brooding on his defeat at Pollentia. It would have been better if the bloody man had swallowed an arrow, or fallen off his horse at some point during his many retreats, as the Goth had a habit of nursing his grudges. The problem was that he needed him and his Goths to use as shock troops.

According to the latest intelligence a horde of barbarians, mostly Vandals, Alans and Suebi, was massing on the east bank of the Rhenus. The commander of the garrison at Colonia Agrippinensium had written a string of increasingly panic-stricken letters to him, describing the growing numbers over the river, numbers that seemed to grow by the day. Either they were planning on a major strike across the river or they were trying to squeeze some kind of concessions out of the Empire by appearing to prepare to invade.

If an invasion was coming then Alaric and his Goths would be a good weapon to use against it. If, that is, Alaric could be trusted to fight under Stilicho. At the moment it would be fair to say that Alaric hated him. Luckily he also feared him, and as long as the fear outweighed the hate then he could be used.

He stared sightlessly at the red team as it cantered briskly around the last turn. There was so much to do. Northern Gaul was slowly slipping away again as the machinery of Imperial government was being worn down by the growing chaos along the Limes. The army was a shambles, the Legions were at best skeleton formations, the Foederati were mutinous and the treasury effectively contained nothing but mouse droppings and a lot of gold-painted lead coins.

There was only one bright spot. According to his spies in Britannia, the three military idiots in the province who might have been stupid enough to try and stir up a mutiny on the island were now one military idiot. The last thing he needed was another revolt – he knew that there were a large number of hostile eyes watching him, just waiting for him to make a single misstep. When he did, the daggers would come down. Into both him and his family - and that was the thing that kept him awake at night.

He scratched his chin thoughtfully. Perhaps he’d write to Alaric in the afternoon. Send him some fripperies, smooth away at the raw surface of distrust that was there. Arrange a meeting in the autumn perhaps. He’d been planning to meet him after the old Festival of Light, in the New Year, but perhaps an earlier meeting would be a good idea. If the barbarians were planning to cross the Rhenus, he had to be ready. And if there was a massive battle and Alaric died a heroic death as the barbarians were flung back over the river… well, that would be a tragedy, wouldn’t it?

[Cash]

Fantastic. Glad to see you active again, sir. And good luck with the interview.

[pike]

Interesting update. The main problem the Romans in Briton seem to be confronting at the moment. Is making sure the locals accept rule from Londinium instaed of Rome.

Dose any one else see the stiring of a form of Republican goverment in the recent meeting with important members of Briton goverments?

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by pike
Interesting update. The main problem the Romans in Briton seem to be confronting at the moment. Is making sure the locals accept rule from Londinium instaed of Rome.


Do they have to know it is not Rome that rules them? The leaders from Londinium can easily claim they rule in the name of the emperor.

[Berserker]

Cool update:D:D:p;)

and hopefully you get the job:D

[Hero of Canton]

I really enjoyed thew new update. You found a great way to convey a large block of information without exposition.

Best of luck with the interview. If there is any justice you will get that job.

Hero of Canton

[Cymraeg]

“I had no idea,” said Poplicala faintly, “That so much equipment and so many men could have been lost and misfiled by so many people for so long.” He gestured at the pile of reports on the desk in front of Aurelianus. “Who would have thought it?”

Aurelianus shot his old friend a wondering smile. “I know – I always knew that the imperial bureaucracy kept lots of records. I just never knew that it could misplace so many of them, or send them to the wrong people.”

Getting hold of the list of military assets that were in the region had not been very hard. He’d just had a word with the head of records in the great Legionary base at Deva and then waited whilst he in turn had requested that various underlings went through their records and forwarded copies of everything relevant. It had taken several weeks just to issue the requests, but then after that the flood of answers had started coming in.

To start with there were the supply depots in Deva itself that hadn’t even been thoroughly explored yet. One, which had been locked up about 30 years ago and forgotten about, contained 500 sets of chainmail armour, 500 gladiuses and 1000 pairs of javelins that weren’t in bad condition. No-one knew why this supply of largesse had been forgotten about, but apparently it just had. He had various people combing through the others, led by Centurion Cato, a man with the unerring nose of a non-commissioned officer for ferretting out various places where military equipment might have been ‘temporarily’ stored and then forgotten about.

One building at the fort at Conovium had yielded several hundred axe-heads, for reasons that no-one could really explain, whilst a warehouse at Virconium had been storing 300 saddles, which Cato had fallen on with a grunt of vague pleasure that would have been a hymn of praise from most other people.

And it had continued – the stockpile of 4,000 iron nails at Letocetum, along with the 300 spearheads, 30 anvils and 500 daggers that someone had stored several decades ago and forgotten about. The five carefully disassembled and stored ballistae at the fort at Cambodunum. The 15,000 hobnails in the cellars of the basilica at Virconium again – that city was turning up all kinds of odds and ends.

And then there had been the human side of it. Someone had sent a detachment of the XXth Legion to the old fort at Condate ten years ago and given it orders to keep the road repaired carefully due to the subsidence from the salt pans there. For some reason when the legion had been recalled to Rome that detachment of 200 soldiers had not gone with them. Quite a few of the original soldiers had been replaced with local auxiliaries but they were still Legionaries. Baffled legionaries as to why they’d been left behind, but still Roman soldiers. They were now rattling about the barracks at Deva like a very small pea inside a very large cup, whilst their women and children explored the delights of the city.

At about the same time as the road-repairing detachment had been sent to Condate some officer whose signature could no longer be distinguished on the original orders had sent a detachment of marines to Conovium, along with three small ships. They were still there, in full working order, just about, with families in the area again.

Men like these were priceless. So much experience, so many years of training that could be passed on to others. Many of them could be safely bumped up a couple of ranks and then new units built around them.

“That reminds me,” Aurelianus muttered, hunting on his desk for an unused wax tablet and a clean stylus, “We must make a note of civilian contractors. The last thing we need is for the aqueducts to fall into disrepair because someone fails to pass on a trade secret to his son or something like that.”

“What?” Poplicala asked as he rummaged carefully through the records, before getting distracted by the latest nugget of information. “Christs’ Nuts, someone left 600 Gaulish longswords in a warehouse the other side of the river here at Deva? Why the hell did they do that?”

Aurelianus shuddered slightly at the language. “Someone was obviously anticipating a rainy day,” he said caustically. Then he looked at the window where the summer rain was cascading down on the other side of the glass. “Good. We’re going to need it all.”

[Elfwine]

You know you're desperate when "two hundred legionaries" counts as Godsent Miracle material.

Very nicely written, Cymraeg.

I like the tone of this. It feels appropriately grim without being depressing. But exactly how one would expect it to feel to be the last Romans on the island who know anything about fighting a war.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Cymraeg, you've impressed me with your past couple of updates. Well done man and keep on going! :)

[Cymraeg]

Normally there's at least some form of gestation period before I can write anything. No idea where this one came from today - I just sat down and it appeared on the screen. I love it when that happens!

[stubear1012]

This was an excellent post and reminds me of some of the stories that old soldiers would tell me. It is good to know that there will be core groups that can be expanded. Also I was very glad to see that the Britains were going to save as much knowledge as they can. This knowledge will be critical to maintaining their infrastructure.

Please keep posting!

Stubear1012

[pike]

This update creates the most powerful image of a isolated Roman Brittania beseiged by Barbs. Struggleing to make a rally cry against the huge odds just to servive, thrive and maintain it civ and will use all resoures to do so. Than the other updates i have read so far.

Any chace that the Britons might acctully get there act togeather and make a few more ballistae to shoot surprised Barbrian ships off the face of the ocean?:rolleyes:

Hadrians wall could use a couple as well to give the Britons that extrea edge.

[Art]

Well, 200 fully-trained and ready to fight legionaries are not to be sneezed at. Nor is a squadron ships, and enough Roman arms to equip a non-Milarian cohort. Nor are they done looking for equipment. It is safe to say the stay-at-home and build faction will win, hands down. Stilicho has been seen, as he was, the last independent gray eminence of the Roman Empire. Alaric may not win, but that is up to Honorius, a unworthy son of his father.

[Josephus]

Great! Just a tiny nit to pick. The segmented armor went out ouf use after the late 2nd century. It was just too complex to make and difficult to repair under field conditions for the later Empire. After 30 years in a warehouse, it would be junk anyway, at least the leather strips holding the whole thing together won't be in the best condition.

[robertp6165]

Great! Just a tiny nit to pick. The segmented armor went out ouf use after the late 2nd century. It was just too complex to make and difficult to repair under field conditions for the later Empire. After 30 years in a warehouse, it would be junk anyway, at least the leather strips holding the whole thing together won't be in the best condition.

Agreed. It won't be segmented armor. More likely chainmail or leather armor of some sort. If the warehouse was in hot, dry, arid Egypt, it might well be in pristine condition. In cold, damp, dank Britain, it will be likely be a pile of moldy, rotten leather and rust. Ironically, the Romans were a bit too advanced in tech for their stuff to survive well in the British climate. If we were talking about Classical Greek bronze cuirasses and helmets, it could be polished up and put to almost immediate use.

[Derek Pullem]

Agreed. It won't be segmented armor. More likely chainmail or leather armor of some sort. If the warehouse was in hot, dry, arid Egypt, it might well be in pristine condition. In cold, damp, dank Britain, it will be likely be a pile of moldy, rotten leather and rust. Ironically, the Romans were a bit too advanced in tech for their stuff to survive well in the British climate. If we were talking about Classical Greek bronze cuirasses and helmets, it could be polished up and put to almost immediate use.

The chainmail (I agree this is much more likely than the obsolete lorica segmenta) could possibly be in usable condition after 30 years. It would depend on the type of storage facility. A converted grain warehouse would minimise the impact of the damp climate and may mean the armour is fine after a bit of TLC

[Josephus]

Chainmail would be allright, it can be stored submerged in barrels of oil.

[robertp6165]

Chainmail would be allright, it can be stored submerged in barrels of oil.

It can be. The question is, would it have been? Was this a standard practice in the Roman military? And how likely are the barrels to have survived intact?

[Hero of Canton]

IIRC the helmets of the Roman Auxiliary cohort helmets were made of bronze well into the late Empire...which of course we are in...dang. ;)

[The Professor]

Nice update Cymraeg.
Hope your jobhunt continues well.

[stubear1012]

At one point the Britains were looking for retired legionaries to help with training. I would be interested in reading how that turned out. Also, I don’t know if when you retire from the Legion if you are allowed to take any of your equipment with you. If so then this would help with more equipment. Also, the retirees may know of other weapons or equipment stored away in some out of the way outpost.

Also, in an earlier post, it was mentioned that the Britains were manning watch towers on the coast. I would be interested in reading more about how they have organized their local defense forces.

Finally, I am assuming that there are standing orders to collect all weapons, armor, and anything else of military value from dead or captured raiders and then either hand them out to the local defense force or use them to arm more of the regular army or navy.

I am enjoying this timeline and I am looking forward to see how it develops.

Stubear1012

[Cymraeg]

Sorry for the delay in editing the last post - my wife and I were down by the seaside enjoying the sun and shaking our heads at the large numbers of people sunbathing with inadequate UV protection.
Thanks to everyone who commented about the segmented armour - I've changed it to chainmail. Never add a throwaway comment about armour unless you do the research first!

[Coalition]

I just finished reading to this point in your story. Excellent example of a slight change causing huge differences later.

Keep up the good work.

[stubear1012]

This is a great time line. Looking forward to more updates from Cymraeg.

Stubear1012

[Tomac]

The problem with adding bows and arrows is that horse archery is extremely difficult to master.

Would be nice if it was an option, but spending the amount of training time it would take to be worth the trouble wouldn't be worth the trouble.

For a horse-mounted archer, I think that you'd need either a short bow or a recurved bow like the later Mongols will use. Short bows have (IIRC) lousy range and the recurved is a Scithian weapon and many hundreds of miles from Britain.
The long bows of Britain aren't really suitable to horseback due to their size.

One thing I want to see is how stirrups help the Romans fare against the Hun invaders some forty or fifty years later...

Regards,
John Braungart ;)

[Elfwine]

For a horse-mounted archer, I think that you'd need either a short bow or a recurved bow like the later Mongols will use. Short bows have (IIRC) lousy range and the recurved is a Scithian weapon and many hundreds of miles from Britain.
The long bows of Britain aren't really suitable to horseback due to their size.

One thing I want to see is how stirrups help the Romans fare against the Hun invaders some forty or fifty years later...

Regards,
John Braungart ;)

Pretty much on the bow issue (including the short range of short bows - though that's not an issue given that you want to fire at relatively close range for accurate shooting particularly on horseback). The Japanese seem to have found a way to have a longbow on horseback, but having the Romans develop something like that would hurt disbelief.

Still, figuring out something wouldn't be undoable if it wasn't for the training issue. Are there any Samartian horse-archers on the island?

[Tomac]

Pretty much on the bow issue (including the short range of short bows - though that's not an issue given that you want to fire at relatively close range for accurate shooting particularly on horseback). The Japanese seem to have found a way to have a longbow on horseback, but having the Romans develop something like that would hurt disbelief.

Still, figuring out something wouldn't be undoable if it wasn't for the training issue. Are there any Samartian horse-archers on the island?

I dunno. What's the genesis on the crossbow? I know that some early very large crossbows (mounted on tripods) were used by the Greeks about 200BC or so, but when did the portabl;e version come about?
Being an Arthurian buff, I love this timeline. Please keep it going!

Regards,
John Braungart ;)

[Sior]

I dunno. What's the genesis on the crossbow? I know that some early very large crossbows (mounted on tripods) were used by the Greeks about 200BC or so, but when did the portabl;e version come about?
Being an Arthurian buff, I love this timeline. Please keep it going!

Regards,
John Braungart ;)

Roman Empire

Besides the gastraphetes, the ancient world knew a variety of mechanical hand-held weapons similar to the later medieval (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) crossbow. The exact terminology is a subject of continuing scholarly debate. Greek and Roman authors like Vegetius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetius) (fl. 4th century) note repeatedly the use of arrow firing weapons such as arcuballista and manuballista respectively cheiroballistra. While most scholars agree that one or more of these terms refer to handheld mechanical weapons, there exist disagreement whether these were flexion bows or torsion powered like the recent Xanten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanten) find.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#cite_note-36) The Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome) commander Arrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrian) (ca. 86 – after 146) records in his Tactica Roman cavalry training for firing some mechanical handheld weapon from horseback.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#cite_note-37) Sculptural reliefs from Roman Gaul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Gaul) depict the use of crossbows in hunting scenes. The specimen are remarkably similar to the later medieval crossbow, including the typical nut lock (see image).[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#cite_note-38)

[Josephus]

The Scythian bow was widely used by the Romans. And in Britain there had been Sarmatian Iazyges auxiliary cavalry stationed for a long time. The cataphractoi that had become the core of Eastern armies after Adrianople (copied in a lighter form in the West) were also mounted archers, using iirc a derivative of the Hunnic bone-reinforced bow.

[Elfwine]

Unfortunately, even with a crossbow, shooting on horseback is hard.

And training raw recruits into useful horse archers is an enormous task.

Doable - but they don't have the time or resources to spend on it.

[Derek Pullem]

Unfortunately, even with a crossbow, shooting on horseback is hard.

And training raw recruits into useful horse archers is an enormous task.

Doable - but they don't have the time or resources to spend on it.

.....and probably not worth it as you say. However an earlier development of the "mounted archer" from the middle ages would be interesting. Essentially give an auxillary infantryman a bow and a spear and a horse and let evolution take its course. What the Britons need now is strategic mobility and firepower, universal tactical mobility is nice but not essential if you have a core of charging cavalry available supported by archers (ref French Ordonnance armies). In a few decades the mounted archer will be a charging cavalry but hey ho

[Elfwine]

.....and probably not worth it as you say. However an earlier development of the "mounted archer" from the middle ages would be interesting. Essentially give an auxillary infantryman a bow and a spear and a horse and let evolution take its course. What the Britons need now is strategic mobility and firepower, universal tactical mobility is nice but not essential if you have a core of charging cavalry available supported by archers (ref French Ordonnance armies). In a few decades the mounted archer will be a charging cavalry but hey ho

Definite possibilities here. But I think you need a lot more intensive training to make useful mounted archers than "upgrading" the auxiliaries to cavalrymen.

Speaking based on study of the Eastern Roman Empire here.

Still, if the idea is around, and the ability to maintain a real army is, some bright fellow will say that bow+horse=win.

I'm not sure how much archers in this era (barring crossbows being available or development of longbows) are good in terms of a foot archer presence, however. I don't want to say they're useless, but they might not add as much as they did later.

And of course, even foot archers (assuming no crossbows) need extensive training. Sword-and-shield or spear-and-shield is mostly just staying in formation and poking the enemy.

[Hero of Canton]

The CSA's "Wizard of the Saddle" proved time after time what well-led mounted infantry could do. Given how long it takes to train horse-archers ("start with their grandfathers") or "proper" cavalry, (let alone the cost of obtaining, training, and supporting war horses large enough to carry mail-clad equites) Cato would do well to consider that a decent crossbowman can be trained in less than a month and that about the same amount of time will train someone to ride a horse without being a menace to himself or his comrades. At the end of that time you've got a unit of "Green Mounted Crossbowmen" which you then start to temper.

Hero of Canton

[Tomac]

The CSA's "Wizard of the Saddle" proved time after time what well-led mounted infantry could do. Given how long it takes to train horse-archers ("start with their grandfathers") or "proper" cavalry, (let alone the cost of obtaining, training, and supporting war horses large enough to carry mail-clad equites) Cato would do well to consider that a decent crossbowman can be trained in less than a month and that about the same amount of time will train someone to ride a horse without being a menace to himself or his comrades. At the end of that time you've got a unit of "Green Mounted Crossbowmen" which you then start to temper.

Hero of Canton

I'm treading on thin ice here, but weren't a lot of the early crossbowmen mounted in that they would use their horses to get from point A to point B, dismount and shoot at the enemy, then remount and go to point C and sting the enemy again? Basically mounted infantry. For tactics like this, a lighter horse and a more lightly armored warrior would work (and lighter horses were more plentiful than big warhorses). As far as armor, I'm thinking of Hal Foster's Prince Valiant (chain tunic down to the mid thigh, sleeves to about the elbow, leather gauntlets and forearm protection, grieves, boots similar to Wellingtons or even laced up to mid-calf and a bean pot helmet with no more trim than a nasal over a chain hood). This armor wouldn't be as heavy as the assault infantry, but their mobility would make up for that, I think.
Arms would include short bow (or some form of crossbow), short sword - maybe 30" blade, saxe knife, and maybe an axe or mace of some kind. And the troops trained to make hit and run raids and attacks. The latter would be the biggest hurdle, I think.

Regards,
John Braungart ;)

[Cash]

What type of sword is Cato's cavalry using? If it's the Roman gladius, could we see the development of a longer, saber-like weapon to lengthen the rider's reach?

[robertp6165]

What type of sword is Cato's cavalry using? If it's the Roman gladius, could we see the development of a longer, saber-like weapon to lengthen the rider's reach?

It would probably be the standard Roman cavalry sword, the spatha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatha). This was the forerunner of the longswords of the Viking Age. The Gladius was too short to be an effective cavalry weapon.

[robertp6165]

Unfortunately, even with a crossbow, shooting on horseback is hard.

And training raw recruits into useful horse archers is an enormous task.

Doable - but they don't have the time or resources to spend on it.

Agreed. The best thing to do would be a mixed force of light cavalry, small men on light horses armed with javelins, swords and and small shields, whose job would be to harass the enemy and break up his formation, supported by a body of medium cavalry consisting of larger men on heavier horses protected by armor and shield and armed with lance and sword, who would charge in to take advantage of any disorder in the enemy's defenses. The idea that they're going to get any kind of effective horse archers is just ludicrous.

[Hero of Canton]

Agreed. The best thing to do would be a mixed force of light cavalry, small men on light horses armed with javelins, swords and and small shields, whose job would be to harass the enemy and break up his formation, supported by a body of medium cavalry consisting of larger men on heavier horses protected by armor and shield and armed with lance and sword, who would charge in to take advantage of any disorder in the enemy's defenses.

Which is pretty much what "Arthur" (Riothamus, Ambrosius Aurelianus, or etc.) is supposed to have commanded IIRC.

The idea that they're going to get any kind of effective horse archers is just ludicrous.

Agreed about true horse archers, but IF the technology for crossbows survives in "Post-Roman Britain" mounted crossbowmen who do not fire from horseback should be doable for Cato. The big IF is that the knowledge might have already been lost.

Hero of Canton

[Elfwine]

One problem with horse-borne archers: Horse holders.

You lose - basing this on the ACW - a quarter of your men holding horses for dismounted cavalry (can't see why mounted infantry is any different, horses is horses).

That means you only bring about three quarters of your men into the actual fight.

[Coalition]

One problem with horse-borne archers: Horse holders.

You lose - basing this on the ACW - a quarter of your men holding horses for dismounted cavalry (can't see why mounted infantry is any different, horses is horses).

That means you only bring about three quarters of your men into the actual fight.
The horse-borne crossbowmen would have a larger area of operations, since they can travel faster. So you might only have 3/4 of the men from each formation available, but twice as many formations can respond due to their higher speed. The villages would be informed of the roads to the nearest garrisons (plus the roads would be maintained), and the rough response times. When a radiing force is sighted, 2-3 riders leave from the village. One headed up the coast to the nearest fortress, one down the coast, and one towards the interior. As each goes to the nearest town, they pass their message to the rider in that village, and rest. This horse express allows a message to be carried rapidly.

The coastal fortresses would have a few armored knights, and mostly crossbowmen. The interior forts would be more knights and few crossbowmen. It conserves the heavy horses, and allows any knight force to know that crossbowmen will be waiting. The crossbowmen are the fastest to respond, and maintain harassment the entire time so the radiers don't operate freely.

With all the horses though, you'll need a lot of food.


For mounted crossbowmen who don't fire from horseback, that might be something that is 'accepted' during training. Since accuracy isn't that good from horseback, Cato decides to have the infantry dismount and fire as a substitute. "Can't hit frak from the horse's back, so I told them to dismount and shoot. Seems to be working better."


The fun will be as the new cavalry start using heavier spears, and modifying the stirrups to take better advantage of the horse's weight. I.e. the first few spearmen decide not to throw, and just jab their spears into the target. The next few decide to carry longer spears so they can hit their opponent first. Then a few of the stirrups snap since the sudden impact is too much. Stronger stirrups show that the saddle needs to be reinforced as well. With a strong lance engages mainly charging forward, armor is optimized in that direction.

[Tomac]

One problem with horse-borne archers: Horse holders.
You lose - basing this on the ACW - a quarter of your men holding horses for dismounted cavalry (can't see why mounted infantry is any different, horses is horses).
That means you only bring about three quarters of your men into the actual fight.

The ancient Celts had women warriors as well as men, not not just queens like Boadicea. Have Cato just use the local girl scouts to hold the horses to free up the menfolk, and maybe some of them will evolve into archer-warriors themselves, especially if they're better shots than some of the boys.....

Regards,
John Braungart ;)

[Cymraeg]

I'm hoping to post the next part today (Sunday). With some time on my hands I've been taking care of odd jobs about the house that need to be done, plus my wife has been taking driving lessons due to the insane recent decision by insurers that people with foreign licences cannot insure cars, so that they need UK licences. :mad:

[HereticAscendant]

The ancient Celts had women warriors as well as men, not not just queens like Boadicea. Have Cato just use the local girl scouts to hold the horses to free up the menfolk, and maybe some of them will evolve into archer-warriors themselves, especially if they're better shots than some of the boys.....


I don't think that romanized and heavily christianized Britons will accept the idea of Woman warriors...

[Elfwine]

The horse-borne crossbowmen would have a larger area of operations, since they can travel faster. So you might only have 3/4 of the men from each formation available, but twice as many formations can respond due to their higher speed. The villages would be informed of the roads to the nearest garrisons (plus the roads would be maintained), and the rough response times. When a radiing force is sighted, 2-3 riders leave from the village. One headed up the coast to the nearest fortress, one down the coast, and one towards the interior. As each goes to the nearest town, they pass their message to the rider in that village, and rest. This horse express allows a message to be carried rapidly.

That is a lot of riders. And horses (but you mention that elsewhere in your post).


The coastal fortresses would have a few armored knights, and mostly crossbowmen. The interior forts would be more knights and few crossbowmen. It conserves the heavy horses, and allows any knight force to know that crossbowmen will be waiting. The crossbowmen are the fastest to respond, and maintain harassment the entire time so the radiers don't operate freely.


What's to stop the raiders from charging the crossbowmen and taking advantage of the fact crossbows take forever to reload (one or two shots a minute)? And if the crossbowmen we're proposing are crossbow-and-sword (and spear?), that's a fair amount of equipment to get together. And carry. And so on.

I don't want to say its completely undoable, but...

The ancient Celts had women warriors as well as men, not not just queens like Boadicea. Have Cato just use the local girl scouts to hold the horses to free up the menfolk, and maybe some of them will evolve into archer-warriors themselves, especially if they're better shots than some of the boys.....

Regards,
John Braungart ;)

Girl scouts?

I know you don't mean as in (insert link here), but where are they coming from?

Personally I'm not sure if mounted infantry is the best of all possible ideas to begin with. Horses on a long march vs. infantry on a long march does not favor cavalry, for a variety of unpleasant reasons. (and mules are not going to be common, pity)

Might be good for quick response, but that's it.

People seem to be on a crossbow kick here, and I really don't get it. Yes, they're easy to train people to use. So are spears, but spears are also easy to make (crossbows not so much).

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

That is a lot of riders. And horses (but you mention that elsewhere in your post).



What's to stop the raiders from charging the crossbowmen and taking advantage of the fact crossbows take forever to reload (one or two shots a minute)? And if the crossbowmen we're proposing are crossbow-and-sword (and spear?), that's a fair amount of equipment to get together. And carry. And so on.

I don't want to say its completely undoable, but...



Girl scouts?

I know you don't mean as in (insert link here), but where are they coming from?

...
Might be good for quick response, but that's it.

People seem to be on a crossbow kick here, and I really don't get it. Yes, they're easy to train people to use. So are spears, but spears are also easy to make (crossbows not so much).

Sorry for the sucky editing,, but im posting from mynook. A. Girl scouts. Might be doable, if they already had the skills, which is doutful. Some combination of 'our glorious ancesttors had women warriors', 'theyre not actually fighting', and 'we dont have enugh men' might do it. Otoh, using boys would be just as useful ... cf baden powell at maefking ... and politically a lot easier.


Crossbows. My guess is people think ... ooo guns are really useful, but we dont have guns... crossbows are sort of like guns, lets do a one for one substitution, despite the fact it didnt work historically.

[Elfwine]

Sorry for the sucky editing,, but im posting from mynook. A. Girl scouts. Might be doable, if they already had the skills, which is doutful. Some combination of 'our glorious ancesttors had women warriors', 'theyre not actually fighting', and 'we dont have enugh men' might do it. Otoh, using boys would be just as useful ... cf baden powell at maefking ... and politically a lot easier.


Crossbows. My guess is people think ... ooo guns are really useful, but we dont have guns... crossbows are sort of like guns, lets do a one for one substitution, despite the fact it didnt work historically.

1) That's the problem. If they had a group of women with the skills, it would be something you could potentially take seriously. And would Romans think of Celts as "our glorious ancestors"?

And the "we don't have enough men"...isn't really true. What they don't have is enough trained men.

2) Probably. Crossbows aren't at all useless, but there's a good reason for the longbow even if it takes so much training its not even funny.

Pilum would probably be better versus raiders for a reason that is kind of fun. Namely, they stick in shields... :D

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Back on my PC, so I can be coherent.
1) That's the problem. If they had a group of women with the skills, it would be something you could potentially take seriously. And would Romans think of Celts as "our glorious ancestors"?
Umm... Many of these guys are less 'Romans', than 'Romanized Britons'. Several of the names we've seen, even of leaders are romanized British names, and surely most of the troops would be British.


And the "we don't have enough men"...isn't really true. What they don't have is enough trained men.

And, perhaps even more important, enough resources to SUPPORT those men, especially in the field. So, ja, you're right.

[Josephus]

Yes, but the stress would be on 'romanized'. The elite would see themselves as Romans and consider the ancient Britons just barbarians.

[Hero of Canton]

People seem to be on a crossbow kick here, and I really don't get it. Yes, they're easy to train people to use. So are spears, but spears are also easy to make (crossbows not so much).

Easy to train people to use and FAR greater range than a thrown javelin let alone a thrown heavy spear.

Hero of Canton

[Tomac]

Yes, but the stress would be on 'romanized'. The elite would see themselves as Romans and consider the ancient Britons just barbarians.

Until some genius realizes that the primary duty of a soldier isn't to shed blood and die for his country, but to make the opponent's soldiers do that.
And as I said, if a woman has the skills to fire a bow better than a man, that genius might be willing let her.
Also, if using a boy or a girl (who knows how to ride a horse) to hold those horses so that trained archers can shoot at the enemy, and thus free up more men to act as archers, I'm sure that he'd be open to doing that, even if it is unconventional.

Regards,
John Braungart ;)

[Cymraeg]

Aurelianus looked around the table and did his best to conceal his amusement. So far the second meeting of the grand council of Britannia had gone far more smoothly than the first one. For one thing, the sheer quantity of small oddments of equipment that had been stored in his area of responsibility had not been a one-off. All of the others had discovered similar caches of men and equipment scattered all through Britannia, ranging from the marines that had been discovered at the Othona fort of the Saxon Shore to the small armour factory that had been quietly churning out scale armour in Londinium and shipping it to Gaul for years, to the 300 Legionaries from the Second Augusta who had been left for some bizarre reason in Isca Augusta. Vitalius had had an odd expression on his face when Tupilius had mentioned that, as if he hadn’t been aware of those soldiers. Given the fact that his powerbase was in Glevum, not that far from Isca Augusta, he probably should have known.

The fact that many of the forts of the Saxon Shore were still manned – although in many cases by very small garrisons of auxiliaries who hadn’t been drawn away to join the fighting in Gaul – had come as a welcome surprise. Small as those units were, they were better than no units at all on those installations, which were always facing the onslaught of the elements. More marines had also been found at Dubris and Portus Adurni, not in large numbers, but enough to form a small but significant pool of experienced manpower.

Where the meeting was starting to founder, however, was on the issue of what to do with the various assortments that they’d found. Once again certain clear dividing lines were soon visible. Marcus had been so heartened by the list that he was repeating his appeal to gather everyone together, arm them, and then lead them over to Gaul and smite Stilicho. Luckily all the various factions had united to squash his idea mercilessly, and Marcus had spent the majority of the meeting sulking at the end of the table.

Tupilius and Furiuis thought that the situation was all perfectly fine and that all they had to do was wait until the Empire reasserted its power properly, whereupon everything would be just fine. That attitude was more than just complacency, it was stupid complacency, but of course he had been diplomatic.

Cornelius Felix was still being blown about the room, irresolute about pretty much everything and often most influenced by the last person he’d talked to. It was like talking to a piece of dandelion fluff.

Oddly enough Vitalius had come around to supporting Aurelianus, Poplicala and Decidivatus in their push for more Britannian autonomy. Aurelianus still wasn’t sure why. That bloody man was still running with some mysterious agenda of his own that, more likely than not, probably involved his own powerbase.

“We have sufficient resources to start to train larger units,” Poplicala was saying as he leant forwards and looked around the table. “The men we have can start to train others. We also have a lot of veterans living in various communities who we can call on to add to this training. The framework is there, if we have the will to build on it.”

Tupilius stirred himself in his seat irritably. “And how will you equip these men? How will you pay them? How will you pay for their training? Where is the money going to come from for all this? And where is the authority for these decisions?” He glared at Poplicala. “No-one here has any real authority! The only person with proconsular imperium is Decidoratus, and he can’t be relied upon to do anything but piss himself and then vomit in a corner! We have to appeal to the Emperor!”

“The Emperor has far more immediate problems on his hands,” Aurelianus replied forcefully. “Let us be frank – we are to all intents and purposes cut off from the Empire. The Legions have been withdrawn. The auxiliaries have almost all gone. Rome is no longer listening to us, because our problems pale into insignificance compared to theirs. The Goths are restive and there is a barbarian army massing on the far side of the Rhenus that has every Gaul on this island alone terrified out of their wits. Northern Gaul has its eyes on that army and it’s no longer listening to Rome. Stilicho will want to concentrate on the Rhenus. He’s not going to send a single foederatus, let alone a legionary, to defend the Wall.”

He leant across the table and Tupilius visibly shrank back in his seat at the ferocity of his gaze. “We have to defend ourselves, because if we wait for the Empire then by the time they return it will be too late. You want to know where the authority comes from, Tupilius? Right here, from the men gathered around this table. We are all governors or former governors or military veterans of Britannia. It is our island. We must defend it. You want to know where the money will come from? We already have it – the tax collectors haven’t been sending it to Rome because of the chaos in Gaul that’s seen every solidus that was previously sent vanish into the money chest of the first person with enough authority to know it was there.”

He brought his fist down onto the table, angry and afraid and finally desperate enough to be undiplomatic enough to tell the truth to the assembled men. “We have to make a stand here, now. While we still can. Because if we don’t it will be too late. We’ll be defenceless and the Sea Wolves will flood across the Northern Ocean and knife us in our front whilst the Hibernii stab us in the back. We can’t wait for Rome to defend us – they’ve abandoned us! If we use what we have then we have the beginnings of cohorts, and then perhaps the beginnings of legions and a fleet to defend ourselves. But we have to act now!”

Tupilius was white and shaking on the other side of the table, but much to his surprise Furiuis was nodding, slowly and reluctantly, but he was nodding. And Poplicala and Decidivatus were both on their feet to either side of him, clapping him on the back and roaring their approval. Even Marcus had stopped sulking and seemed to be thinking, whilst Cornelius Felix was looking less like a stunned fish and more perhaps like his rumoured ancestor. Vitalius was leaning back in his seat, nodding with a combination of approval and calculation at him, as if he was a dog that had just done a particularly clever trick.
Aurelianus reordered his slightly rumpled toga and then took his seat again, looking around the table. “This group,” he said slowly as those standing also took their places, “has to take on the responsibility to defend this island for the Empire. Because if we do not, no-one else will!”

[Elfwine]

Back on my PC, so I can be coherent.

Umm... Many of these guys are less 'Romans', than 'Romanized Britons'. Several of the names we've seen, even of leaders are romanized British names, and surely most of the troops would be British.

They're Romans in the sense of being brought up in Roman norms and assumptions - the island hasn't been Celtic for a few centuries.


And, perhaps even more important, enough resources to SUPPORT those men, especially in the field. So, ja, you're right.Logistics, the most easily ignored part of early modern (and earlier)
alt-history.

Easy to train people to use and FAR greater range than a thrown javelin let alone a thrown heavy spear.

Hero of Canton

Greater range is not everything.

Again, those thrown heavy spears stick in enemy shields. There's a reason they were standard legion issue a few reforms ago.

Tomac: That's pushing it way too far. And its not even about "the soldier's job" thing. That's not exactly an attitude Romans will not grasp.

You might, just might, get a few individual women. You won't get (assuming say, a couple thousand crossbowmen) five hundred.

Not with the mindset of the time, not with the fact women of the time won't tend to have the skills/training,

And having a group specifically of horseholders...I'm just curious, why do you think OTL cavalry designated cavalrymen to do it instead of having a Horseholder's Company?

Also: Yay, update.

[stubear1012]

Excellent post, Cymraeg! I like the fact that the leaders are coming the grips with the fact that they are on their own. It is good that they have a factory making scale armor and that the output can not be used for the local troops. I found a map show the industrial production in Roman times. Hopefully these iron forge clusters are areas where swords, spearheads, knives, arrowheads, and so on can be made.

Please keep posting.

Stubear1012

[bolhabela]

So they are controling everithing below Hadrians wall? Including Wales? What is their population like? Could they witstand a saxon AND hibernian invasion at the same time? An what about Irleand? I tought at that time they made a living from piracy on the irish see

[Josephus]

Two small nits: It's solidus and foederatus in the singular.

[Cash]

Excellent development of your plot line and characters, Cymraeg. I'm really looking forward to watching this story continue. Vitalius obviously has his own agenda, one that likely includes a crown, but for the moment he needs the others to achieve his goals. Aurelianus suspects that.

It will be interesting to see how the council develops -- into an instrument of group government or a set of advisers to a central king.

[Hero of Canton]

Outstanding! Most entertaining and thought provoking.

IIRC Britannia in OTL was supposedly the only former province that had been able (even if it was only temporary) to drive out/subdue the invading barbarians. In you ATL it looks likely that they might be able to keep them out/subdued for more than a single generation.

Hero of Canton

[Tomac]

Tomac: That's pushing it way too far. And its not even about "the soldier's job" thing. That's not exactly an attitude Romans will not grasp.

That's why I said "some genius", maybe a sarcastic decturion says it to some of his men and his centurion overhears it and thinks about it for a while. Something along the lines of "You idiots are bound for a glorious death. And when you're finished, your enemies will enslave your children and take your women for their own. And some of them would deserve it, from what I've seen." And it makes the centurion that that it's better to have that happen to the enemy. It would make his way of fighting more ruthless and fearsome (IMOHO).


You might, just might, get a few individual women. You won't get (assuming say, a couple thousand crossbowmen) five hundred.

A few is better than none, and if a few work out, then maybe you get a few more. Change doesn't happen overnight but it can happen eventually (Again, IMOHO).



Not with the mindset of the time, not with the fact women of the time won't tend to have the skills/training,

No women ever went hunting to help feed their families? Especially if the man of the house was sick, or away at war?



And having a group specifically of horseholders...I'm just curious, why do you think OTL cavalry designated cavalrymen to do it instead of having a Horseholder's Company?

All I'm thinking of is a support group at a time when Cato might have been strapped a bit for troops. Instead of half a dozen archers holding horses while the other eighteen fired their arrows, have a half dozen kids (and make it all boys, if that's more reasonable to you) hold the horses while two dozen archers launch their arrows. The boys might be in the loose role of troop squires who, in times of peace, will be trained themselves by the troop in archery and swordplay and be replaced by other boys (or maybe by a few girls who are better riders).

Also: Yay, update.

On this we argee! Time to quit arguing over inconsequencials and let the storyteller resume his tale......

Regards,
John Braungart ;)

[Elfwine]

That's why I said "some genius", maybe a sarcastic decturion says it to some of his men and his centurion overhears it and thinks about it for a while. Something along the lines of "You idiots are bound for a glorious death. And when you're finished, your enemies will enslave your children and take your women for their own. And some of them would deserve it, from what I've seen." And it makes the centurion that that it's better to have that happen to the enemy. It would make his way of fighting more ruthless and fearsome (IMOHO).

I should have worded my post better. I think the Romans already knew the other poor bastard was supposed to do the dying.



A few is better than none, and if a few work out, then maybe you get a few more. Change doesn't happen overnight but it can happen eventually (Again, IMOHO).
A few doesn't make enough difference to matter. Quite honestly, I'm not sure there's much point exploring this.

No women ever went hunting to help feed their families? Especially if the man of the house was sick, or away at war?
I'm not sure how much hunting was something that the average plebe did in Roman Britain, male or female-in-need.

I don't want to rule it out entirely, but I don't know where you'd begin to find anyone experienced enough among the women of Britainnia.


All I'm thinking of is a support group at a time when Cato might have been strapped a bit for troops. Instead of half a dozen archers holding horses while the other eighteen fired their arrows, have a half dozen kids (and make it all boys, if that's more reasonable to you) hold the horses while two dozen archers launch their arrows. The boys might be in the loose role of troop squires who, in times of peace, will be trained themselves by the troop in archery and swordplay and be replaced by other boys (or maybe by a few girls who are better riders).
That still brings up the question: Why don't we see horseholder companies for OTL mounted infantry/cavalry?


On this we argee! Time to quit arguing over inconsequencials and let the storyteller resume his tale......

Regards,
John Braungart ;)Yup. If he likes your ideas, I'm not going to object. This is an Arthurian tale for all intents and purposes, a little fantasy and anachronism isn't all bad. :D

[Sior]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/FrenchMountedCrossbowman.JPG/95px-FrenchMountedCrossbowman.JPG
16th century French mounted crossbowman ("cranequinier"). His crossbow is drawn with a rack-and-pinion 'cranequin', so it can be used while riding.

Roman Empire
Besides the gastraphetes, the ancient world knew a variety of mechanical hand-held weapons similar to the later medieval (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) crossbow. The exact terminology is a subject of continuing scholarly debate. Greek and Roman authors like Vegetius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetius) (fl. 4th century) note repeatedly the use of arrow firing weapons such as arcuballista and manuballista respectively cheiroballistra. While most scholars agree that one or more of these terms refer to handheld mechanical weapons, there exist disagreement whether these were flexion bows or torsion powered like the recent Xanten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanten) find.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#cite_note-36) The Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome) commander Arrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrian) (ca. 86 – after 146) records in his Tactica Roman cavalry training for firing some mechanical handheld weapon from horseback.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#cite_note-37) Sculptural reliefs from Roman Gaul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Gaul) depict the use of crossbows in hunting scenes. The specimen are remarkably similar to the later medieval crossbow, including the typical nut lock (see image).[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow#cite_note-38)

http://www.archive.org/details/revisedsystemofc00whee
A revised system of cavalry tactics, for the use of the cavalry and mounted infantry, C. S. A. (1863) in PDF

[Cash]

For those who want a map of Roman Britain in 410 AD showing the major settlements and road system, it can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glevum

I can't see to get it to load onto this thread. Perhaps someone else can?

(BTW, click on the map and use the higher resolution version.)

[Cymraeg]

It was raining on the ramparts of the small fort, but Telorix didn’t mind that much. He was wearing his father’s old waterproof cape, which he’d kept maintained as best as he could, with his spear resting lightly against his shoulder and he could see for miles around. Some people would call the landscape bleak, but he would never do that. He’d been born within miles of the Wall and he had no doubt that he’d die within its shadow.

He turned on his heel as according to his training and then paced to the other side of the top of the fort. Ilerix was supposed to be there, but Telorix saw without surprise that the boy was instead huddled under the lip of the roof, blowing on his hands as he sheltered from the rain. Well, he was just a boy, barely even 16. Telorix was 18 and therefore knew a lot more than the boy.

The problem was that his watch was coming to an end and he didn’t want to go down to the interior of the fort. Yes, the small barracks would be warm and dry and there would be food, but there would also be old Honorius, the veteran soldier who was the beating heart of the fort – and who was dying.

Telorix gripped his spear tightly, closed his eyes and prayed to The Crone that death would spare the man who had been a better father than his actual father, because without Honorious the fort would start to fall apart. The gnarled old veteran, with his knack of carving small figures from pieces of wood, had been a fixture at the fort for years. Hell, he’d been the garrison for years, bolstered by the occasional volunteer like Telorix and some of the others.

He looked along the Wall and caught a glimpse of the next fort to the west. Wonder of wonders there was a trickle of smoke rising from one corner of it, so he presumed that the local volunteers were paying the place a visit.

Casting a quick glance at the shrouded location of the sun in the sky he sighed and turned back to Ilerix. “My watch is over, I’m going down,” he said tersely. “Keep a good look-out. I don’t want to see you hiding from the rain again.”

Ilerix groaned and emerged from his shelter. “Alright,” he said miserably. “Why do we do this again?”

Telorix suppressed the need to cuff the boy on the back of his head. “Because it’s our duty,” he said from behind gritted teeth. “You volunteered for this, remember?”

The boy nodded miserably. “It’s bloody cold and wet today.”

“That’s life on the Wall,” Telorix reminded him gently, and then he turned and padded down the stairs to the courtyard below. When he reached the door to the barracks he took a deep breath and then bustled into the room on the other side cheerfully.

“Still raining,” he said briskly as he took his cape off, shook the water off carefully and then hung it from a wooden peg on the wall. “Nothing to report otherwise, Decurion. Looks like the volunteers are in the fort to the west though – I saw smoke rising from the barracks.”

“Good,” wheezed Honorious from his bed by the fire. “Good.” He broke out into a hacking cough for a long minute, a cough that shook his skinny frame. “About time they… looked after that place better.” He leant back on the thin, straw-stuffed mattress and then wheezed again.

“Promise me you’ll… look after this place when… I’m gone.”

Telorix hurried over to him. “Enough of that kind of talk. You’ll be boring us for years to come with your tales of all the people you thought you saw on your travels. Besides, there’s still an entire amphora of garum sauce for you to hog to yourself.” That amphora was the last in the fort and he couldn’t think where could get a replacement.

The old soldier glared at him for a moment and then smiled. “Bored you did I? Ha! I’ve seen things that would… make your hair stand on end, boy!” The smile vanished. “Be sensible. My race is done. Yours is yet… to start properly. I’m dying, Telorix. Taken me… long enough. When I’m gone you’ll be the… senior soldier here. I’m… leaving you in charge, Decurion Telorix.”

Telorix opened his mouth to protest – and then he saw the intent look in Honorious’s eyes and nodded instead, slowly and reluctantly. The title wasn’t that important. The last cavalry unit had left the fort years before and the pay was haphazard at best. But the honour was a great one. “Thank you sir,” he said softly.

The latch to the door rattled harshly and then suddenly Ilerix burst into the barracks. “Riders coming from the North!”

Honorious looked at him harshly. “Make your report in a proper manner!” he bellowed as loud as he could, before he sank back onto the bed again, wheezing horribly.

“Sorry sir,” Ilerix said hastily, straightening up and grounding his spear properly. “Two riders coming from the North. One of them looks Roman sir. Roman armour anyway.”

“Odd,” muttered Honorious, “Why come to this crossing point? Telorix, get up to the gatehouse and ask them where they’re going when you can.” The old soldier was wheezing a lot less now that he had something important on his mind, and he was making a valiant effort to stand.

“Rest easy sir,” Telorix told him gently. “I’ll go and look. Ilerix, come with me.” He strode out, grabbing his cape as he passed it and then clattering up the stairs to the gatehouse, where he peered out carefully.

The rain had stopped now and he could see the two horsemen clearly as they approached the gate. True enough, one was indeed wearing Roman armour, although he was also bundled up with a rather old weatherproof cape that kept billowing around him. Not that the man seemed to notice that much, he was too intent on riding south. The other man looked like an auxiliary of some sort, with a blue cape that looked vaguely like the ones worn by the Votadini.

“Halt – who goes there!” Telorix bellowed as hard as he could and then grinned as the two approaching men started a bit. The one in Roman armour muttered something to the other with a smile and then they brought their horses to a halt.

“We seek passage through the Wall to the South!” the Roman called.

“What business do you have there?”

“I am Quintus Gratianus, General of Rome, commander of auxiliaries in the area of Eboracum,” the man called out with an odd expression on his face, as if he was claiming a title that he wasn’t sure he still had. “This is Marcus Constantinus of the Votadini.”

Telorix stared at them for a long moment before he turned to Ilerix. “Come with me,” he said quietly. Together they clattered back down the stone stairs and then made their way past the firewood to the gates. “It’s been too long since we had anyone through here,” he muttered as he wrestled with the bar that locked the gates. It was hard to move but after the two of them put their backs into it the bar finally moved enough to allow them to open the right hand gate, which squealed as it moved.

“My thanks,” Gratianus said as he led his horse on foot through the gate. “The fort to the west contained a soldier who told us to bugger off. I thought that you were better manned in this area?”

“We’re all volunteers sir,” Telorix said, grunting with effort as he closed the gates behind the Votadini man and his horse. “The next fort isn’t manned all the time. This one is. I'm Decurion Telorix sir.”

Gratianus’s eyebrows went up and Telorix felt himself flush a bit as the officer assessed both his title and his youth. “Where’s your commanding officer?”

“Decurion Honorious, sir. He’s in the barracks.”

“Right. Legionary, take care of our horses,” Gratianus said as he thrust the reins into the hands of the gaping Ilerix. And then he strode across the small courtyard to the barracks, followed by Constantinus. Telorix stared at their retreating backs for a moment and then he gathered himself and darted after them.

Gratianus was through the doors before he could stop him and Telorix came very close to knocking himself out with his own spear from his first hurried effort at getting into the barracks. When he finally made it in he saw that Honorious was on his feet and was saluting Gratianus as crisply as he could. “Decurion Gaius Honorious sir, Wall detachment,” he introduced himself.

The general looked at him shrewdly. “Quintus Gratianus. Be seated Decurion, you don’t look well.”

“I can’t die on duty sir,” Honorious replied stubbornly. “I’m always on duty.”

Gratianus looked at him and then around the room, obviously looking at the empty spaces and the lack of equipment. “Where’s the rest of your garrison, Decurion?”

“Just me and the two boys sir,” Honorious said quietly. “There are a few others, but we’re the permanent staff here. Some of the local auxiliaries have started organising cavalry patrols here and there, but not in any large numbers.”

The Roman looked around again and then nodded sombrely before exchanging an intense glance with the Votadini, who was looking at a small piece of tack that was hanging, covered with dust, on one wall.

“Well, Decurion,” Gratianus said eventually. “It seems that we’ll be bunking together for a night. Tell me what it’s been like on the Wall.”

Telorix watched for a moment as Honorious sat back down and started to talk, before slipping out to make sure that Ilerix hadn’t stabled the horses in the well by mistake.

[Hero of Canton]

Excellent, Gratianus might be at the place where he can do the least harm and the most good!

Am I mistaken or does this post hint that the Votadini colonists are going to be settling just inside The Wall instead of eventually founding Gwynedd?

Hero of Canton

[Cymraeg]

Am I mistaken or does this post hint that the Votadini colonists are going to be settling just inside The Wall instead of eventually founding Gwynedd?


Maybe! :rolleyes:

[Elfwine]

The world needs more men like Honorious. Hopefully his good example will have influenced those boys (says the 25 year old :D) enough to give them some real professionalism.

That sort of thing will go a long way to making defending easier - raiders pick easy prey, and a sturdy Roman tradition army isn't easy prey.

[stubear1012]

Good point Elfwine, history is full of stories of how a tradition of honor and duty has enabled units to fight on regardless of the odds. Here is another map of Britain shwoing the area that we are reading about.

[stubear1012]

I looked at the map that Cash found and it is a good one. The is the best that I can do.

[Hero of Canton]

It was raining on the ramparts of the small fort, but Telorix didn’t mind that much. He was wearing his father’s old waterproof cape, which he’d kept maintained as best as he could, with his spear resting lightly against his shoulder and he could see for miles around. Some people would call the landscape bleak, but he would never do that. He’d been born within miles of the Wall and he had no doubt that he’d die within its shadow.

He turned on his heel as according to his training and then paced to the other side of the top of the fort. Ilerix was supposed to be there, but Telorix saw without surprise that the boy was instead huddled under the lip of the roof, blowing on his hands as he sheltered from the rain. Well, he was just a boy, barely even 16. Telorix was 18 and therefore knew a lot more than the boy.

The problem was that his watch was coming to an end and he didn’t want to go down to the interior of the fort. Yes, the small barracks would be warm and dry and there would be food, but there would also be old Honorius, the veteran soldier who was the beating heart of the fort – and who was dying.

Telorix gripped his spear tightly, closed his eyes and prayed to The Crone that death would spare the man who had been a better father than his actual father, because without Honorious the fort would start to fall apart. The gnarled old veteran, with his knack of carving small figures from pieces of wood, had been a fixture at the fort for years. Hell, he’d been the garrison for years, bolstered by the occasional volunteer like Telorix and some of the others.

He looked along the Wall and caught a glimpse of the next fort to the west. Wonder of wonders there was a trickle of smoke rising from one corner of it, so he presumed that the local volunteers were paying the place a visit.

Casting a quick glance at the shrouded location of the sun in the sky he sighed and turned back to Ilerix. “My watch is over, I’m going down,” he said tersely. “Keep a good look-out. I don’t want to see you hiding from the rain again.”

Ilerix groaned and emerged from his shelter. “Alright,” he said miserably. “Why do we do this again?”

Telorix suppressed the need to cuff the boy on the back of his head. “Because it’s our duty,” he said from behind gritted teeth. “You volunteered for this, remember?”

The boy nodded miserably. “It’s bloody cold and wet today.”

“That’s life on the Wall,” Telorix reminded him gently, and then he turned and padded down the stairs to the courtyard below. When he reached the door to the barracks he took a deep breath and then bustled into the room on the other side cheerfully.

“Still raining,” he said briskly as he took his cape off, shook the water off carefully and then hung it from a wooden peg on the wall. “Nothing to report otherwise, Decurion. Looks like the volunteers are in the fort to the west though – I saw smoke rising from the barracks.”

“Good,” wheezed Honorious from his bed by the fire. “Good.” He broke out into a hacking cough for a long minute, a cough that shook his skinny frame. “About time they… looked after that place better.” He leant back on the thin, straw-stuffed mattress and then wheezed again.

“Promise me you’ll… look after this place when… I’m gone.”

Telorix hurried over to him. “Enough of that kind of talk. You’ll be boring us for years to come with your tales of all the people you thought you saw on your travels. Besides, there’s still an entire amphora of garum sauce for you to hog to yourself.” That amphora was the last in the fort and he couldn’t think where could get a replacement.

The old soldier glared at him for a moment and then smiled. “Bored you did I? Ha! I’ve seen things that would… make your hair stand on end, boy!” The smile vanished. “Be sensible. My race is done. Yours is yet… to start properly. I’m dying, Telorix. Taken me… long enough. When I’m gone you’ll be the… senior soldier here. I’m… leaving you in charge, Decurion Telorix.”

Telorix opened his mouth to protest – and then he saw the intent look in Honorious’s eyes and nodded instead, slowly and reluctantly. The title wasn’t that important. The last cavalry unit had left the fort years before and the pay was haphazard at best. But the honour was a great one. “Thank you sir,” he said softly.

The latch to the door rattled harshly and then suddenly Ilerix burst into the barracks. “Riders coming from the North!”

Honorious looked at him harshly. “Make your report in a proper manner!” he bellowed as loud as he could, before he sank back onto the bed again, wheezing horribly.

“Sorry sir,” Ilerix said hastily, straightening up and grounding his spear properly. “Two riders coming from the North. One of them looks Roman sir. Roman armour anyway.”

“Odd,” muttered Honorious, “Why come to this crossing point? Telorix, get up to the gatehouse and ask them where they’re going when you can.” The old soldier was wheezing a lot less now that he had something important on his mind, and he was making a valiant effort to stand.

“Rest easy sir,” Telorix told him gently. “I’ll go and look. Ilerix, come with me.” He strode out, grabbing his cape as he passed it and then clattering up the stairs to the gatehouse, where he peered out carefully.

The rain had stopped now and he could see the two horsemen clearly as they approached the gate. True enough, one was indeed wearing Roman armour, although he was also bundled up with a rather old weatherproof cape that kept billowing around him. Not that the man seemed to notice that much, he was too intent on riding south. The other man looked like an auxiliary of some sort, with a blue cape that looked vaguely like the ones worn by the Votadini.

“Halt – who goes there!” Telorix bellowed as hard as he could and then grinned as the two approaching men started a bit. The one in Roman armour muttered something to the other with a smile and then they brought their horses to a halt.

“We seek passage through the Wall to the South!” the Roman called.

“What business do you have there?”

“I am Quintus Gratianus, General of Rome, commander of auxiliaries in the area of Eboracum,” the man called out with an odd expression on his face, as if he was claiming a title that he wasn’t sure he still had. “This is Marcus Constantinus of the Votadini.”

Telorix stared at them for a long moment before he turned to Ilerix. “Come with me,” he said quietly. Together they clattered back down the stone stairs and then made their way past the firewood to the gates. “It’s been too long since we had anyone through here,” he muttered as he wrestled with the bar that locked the gates. It was hard to move but after the two of them put their backs into it the bar finally moved enough to allow them to open the right hand gate, which squealed as it moved.

“My thanks,” Gratianus said as he led his horse on foot through the gate. “The fort to the west contained a soldier who told us to bugger off. I thought that you were better manned in this area?”

“We’re all volunteers sir,” Telorix said, grunting with effort as he closed the gates behind the Votadini man and his horse. “The next fort isn’t manned all the time. This one is. I'm Decurion Telorix sir.”

Gratianus’s eyebrows went up and Telorix felt himself flush a bit as the officer assessed both his title and his youth. “Where’s your commanding officer?”

“Decurion Honorious, sir. He’s in the barracks.”

“Right. Legionary, take care of our horses,” Gratianus said as he thrust the reins into the hands of the gaping Ilerix. And then he strode across the small courtyard to the barracks, followed by Constantinus. Telorix stared at their retreating backs for a moment and then he gathered himself and darted after them.

Gratianus was through the doors before he could stop him and Telorix came very close to knocking himself out with his own spear from his first hurried effort at getting into the barracks. When he finally made it in he saw that Honorious was on his feet and was saluting Gratianus as crisply as he could. “Decurion Gaius Honorious sir, Wall detachment,” he introduced himself.

The general looked at him shrewdly. “Quintus Gratianus. Be seated Decurion, you don’t look well.”

“I can’t die on duty sir,” Honorious replied stubbornly. “I’m always on duty.”

Gratianus looked at him and then around the room, obviously looking at the empty spaces and the lack of equipment. “Where’s the rest of your garrison, Decurion?”

“Just me and the two boys sir,” Honorious said quietly. “There are a few others, but we’re the permanent staff here. Some of the local auxiliaries have started organising cavalry patrols here and there, but not in any large numbers.”

The Roman looked around again and then nodded sombrely before exchanging an intense glance with the Votadini, who was looking at a small piece of tack that was hanging, covered with dust, on one wall.

“Well, Decurion,” Gratianus said eventually. “It seems that we’ll be bunking together for a night. Tell me what it’s been like on the Wall.”

Telorix watched for a moment as Honorious sat back down and started to talk, before slipping out to make sure that Ilerix hadn’t stabled the horses in the well by mistake.

Cymraeg if you are open to not killing off Decurion Honorius let me suggest that HOPE is very powerful medicine, and Quintus Gratianus, Commander of auxiliaries in the area of Eboracum and Prince Marcus Constantinus of the Votadini may have just brought a large dose of hope into the barracks with them.

Hero of Canton

[Sior]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS8Tc-bUeUKW9d_Vjq0obnxbWhw2WMZpRKFhPNWe91QBF8yXj0Tkg

http://www.brrp.bham.ac.uk/maps/roads-in-britain.gif

Some more maps to help!

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Why are the british riders coming from the north?

[stubear1012]

Here is my second try on the Britannia 410 map. I used a software package call Graphic Workshop. I saved the jpeg file as a png file which can be uploaded as a larger picture.

Stubear1012

[Josephus]

Why are the british riders coming from the north?

They are coming from the area between the Hadrian and Antonine Wall, probably from Din Eidyn (modern Edinburgh), the capital of the Votadini. The tribes of the Old North had been Roman clients and auxiliaries for a long time. And if Marcus Constantinus name sounds very Roman for a northern semibarbarian, it's because he is. After a rebellion of those tribes in 367, when they allied with the picts, their native leadership was purged and replaced by Roman officers. Of course, by now they are well on the way to become standard Celtic chieftains, as happened to the Old English in Ireland, but they still consider themselves Romans, and probably will for quite some time.

[Cash]

Stubear and others, thanks for posting the maps. They really help understand the action, I think.

Cymraeg, another very good episode. I really like the way it illustrates the state of affairs along the Wall.

[pike]

Hmm a great new update. I am glad Cymraeg got around to a Hadrians Wall update.

Quintus Gratianus looks like he might do a good job of shaking up the defences of Hadrians Wall in his area. But what worries me is there was no indervidual in general command of Hadrians Walls as a whole to make sure the defences were consistant in all areas in OLT. This maybe the reason the Hadrians Wall was nearly destroyed three times by the picts in its history because of the lack of centralized command.
If the Britons do there act togeather and appoint an over all commander of Hadrians Walls it will most deffinently increase the chance of Romo-Briton survival in the long run enormously.

[stubear1012]

You are welcome Cash. When I find a good timeline like this one, I search Wiki for maps and articles to help understand what the writer is trying to do. Looking at different maps have helped me a lot.

Stubear1012

[Hero of Canton]

Hmm a great new update. I am glad Cymraeg got around to a Hadrians Wall update.

Quintus Gratianus looks like he might do a good job of shaking up the defences of Hadrians Wall in his area. But what worries me is there was no indervidual in general command of Hadrians Walls as a whole to make sure the defences were consistant in all areas in OLT. This maybe the reason the Hadrians Wall was nearly destroyed three times by the picts in its history because of the lack of centralized command.
If the Britons do there act togeather and appoint an over all commander of Hadrians Walls it will most deffinently increase the chance of Romo-Briton survival in the long run enormously.

Hang on there. Prior to the withdrawal of troops by Constantine III the Dux Britanniarum commanded the troops on Hadrian's Wall and the Notitia Dignitatum lists their stations from east to west as well as some further forts on the Cumbrian coast.

Since in this ATL Cato killed Constantine III in a duel, the Dux Britanniarum should still have command of those troops. In this ATL it seems that the Command has lapsed. In which case Quintus Gratianus reason to be in the North might include being the new Dux Britanniarum.

Hero of Canton

[pike]

Hang on there. Prior to the withdrawal of troops by Constantine III the Dux Britanniarum commanded the troops on Hadrian's Wall and the Notitia Dignitatum lists their stations from east to west as well as some further forts on the Cumbrian coast.

Since in this ATL Cato killed Constantine III in a duel, the Dux Britanniarum should still have command of those troops. In this ATL it seems that the Command has lapsed. In which case Quintus Gratianus reason to be in the North might include being the new Dux Britanniarum.

Hero of Canton

Thanks for clearing that one up for me Hero of Canton. I made these statement on the bases i could not find any detailed info of command sturure of Hadrian's Wall on wiki and this is was clearly my down fall. In this case i am glad i was wrong. I have to wonder how Dux Britanniarum will take the news of a radical new goverment in Londinium.

[Cash]

I have to wonder how Dux Britanniarum will take the news of a radical new goverment in Londinium.

A lot depends on how sophisticated the Council is in presenting its ideas. Aurelianus probably took the best approach when he phrased it as "taking care of ourselves to relieve pressure on a Rome that faces much larger challenges elsewhere." He hasn't presented it as a complete break from Roman rule yet, although he acknowledged that Rome has abandoned Britain temporarily. He and many of the others know where this is leading, they're just not prepared to present it as Britannic independence to those who still feel some loyalty to Rome.

Nor, for that matter, have they decided on a governance structure beyond the Council. From the hints already dropped, some members have more definite plans about that than others.

[Hero of Canton]

A lot depends on how sophisticated the Council is in presenting its ideas. Aurelianus probably took the best approach when he phrased it as "taking care of ourselves to relieve pressure on a Rome that faces much larger challenges elsewhere." He hasn't presented it as a complete break from Roman rule yet, although he acknowledged that Rome has abandoned Britain temporarily. He and many of the others know where this is leading, they're just not prepared to present it as Britannic independence to those who still feel some loyalty to Rome.

Nor, for that matter, have they decided on a governance structure beyond the Council. From the hints already dropped, some members have more definite plans about that than others.

Cash,

Well put. Too many on the Council cling to the hope that once past this "present difficulty" Rome will once more return to Britannia -- forgetting that Rome has been cutting its losses since Magnus Maximus made his run for the purple. The Council would fall apart under the strain.

At some point IIRC it is believed (based on the VERY thin primary sources on this period) that a government based on the Civitates was formed, but soon usurped by "Proud Tyrants" - Vortigern!

Hero of Canton

[stubear1012]

I feel that it is a good idea to avoid any talk about independence for now. Currently, most people believe that they are still part of the Roman Empire. This is important in that the authority of the Council is based on their positions or former positions in the Roman government. Also, they need a military based on the best traditions of the Legions and a society based on established law and order. Farming, mining, manufacturing, trade, and commerce need to continue so that taxes can be collected to rebuild a common defense.

If they start talking about independence, then what is their authority based on? How long before some one decides that they can be King of Britain based on the number of soldiers that they command? I am sure that there are some on the Council thinking about being King already.

I am a little concerned that Quintus Gratianus and the Votadini may decide that they have the largest army on Britain. They could then decide to march south and try to conquer all of the country. Such a war would be a signal for the Hibernians, Picts, and Saxons to attack a divided and weaken country. Also, how long before different tribes then decide to reestablish their own tribal kingdoms?

For now claiming to be a loyal part of the Roman Empire is critical toward their survival. There will be a time in the future where the Council is seem as a legal government in their own right and can then declare independence. Or they can just let it happen gradually over the years.

This is as always just my opinion. I am looking forward to see how the author develops this timeline.

Stubear1012

[stubear1012]

Here is a map of mining in Roman Britain. There was a greater variety of metals than I realized.

Stubear 1012

[pike]

Josephus

Could these new Roman barbarians in charge of the tribes of the Old North be brought around into the roman fold or at least convince them to halt raiding beyond Hadrians Wall. By the right sort of talk/incentives and a bit of luck from the new goverment of the Londinium. That a big if there but if the Britons did have to worry about there north flank then the sea invaders/raider Saxon ectra.. would feel the entire might of the post Roman Briton army crush down on them. A rather powerful incentive to leave the Briton state alone, I think.

[Cash]

Stubear, it strikes me that fifth-century Britain had all the ingredients necessary to establish/preserve an advanced culture independent of the Continent -- population, knowledge, minerals, agriculture. If it hadn't broken down into a collection of squabbling kingdoms -- warlords, more accurately -- after Rome abandoned it, Britain could have become quite a center of civilization as the rest of Europe fell apart. Interesting butterflies.

[stubear1012]

Cash, I agree with you. I have been reading up on Britain during the Roman times. They had everything required to buildup the island into a safe and secure place. As the cost of attacking Britain rises, then the raiders will shift to an easier target. As word spreads that Britain is safer than the Continent, some of the wealthier families would flee to Britain. Hopefully they would bring their libraries, tools, livestock, skilled craft men, and so on. This would help build up Britain.

Then as time goes on, Britain will starts to share knowledge with the Continent and this would speed up the recovery from the fall of Rome.

I am looking forward to seeing how these butterflies develop.

[Josephus]

Josephus

Could these new Roman barbarians in charge of the tribes of the Old North be brought around into the roman fold or at least convince them to halt raiding beyond Hadrians Wall. By the right sort of talk/incentives and a bit of luck from the new goverment of the Londinium. That a big if there but if the Britons did have to worry about there north flank then the sea invaders/raider Saxon ectra.. would feel the entire might of the post Roman Briton army crush down on them. A rather powerful incentive to leave the Briton state alone, I think.

No need. They were foederati already, christianized, if not romanized. They were Britains main line of defence against the Picts (and a bit later, the arriving Scotti settlers), and that's why the Wall was mostly deserted.

There are scholars that think they were the source of the (re-)celticizing revolution among the British and Armoricans, being settled throughout Britain as military colonists and the main source of military strength (possibly augmented with some Germanic component, heavily mixed with native Romano-Britons, the Gewissae/Hwicce).

I once again endorse a very interesting Analysis of the matter available on the net: http://www.facesofarthur.org.uk/fabio/contents.htm

[Sior]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2029532/Roman-port-unearthed-soldiers-launched-invasion-Wales-2-000-years-ago.html

I saw this and thought it would be of interest.

[Cymraeg]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2029532/Roman-port-unearthed-soldiers-launched-invasion-Wales-2-000-years-ago.html

I saw this and thought it would be of interest.

I saw that yesterday as well, only on the BBC. Interesting isn't it? Thanks for the Daily Mail page though.

[Hero of Canton]

Pax Britannica begins in 600 AD instead of 1815 AD.

HoC

[Sior]

Bump!
Cymraeg I'm enjoying your other tl in post 1900's but don't abandon this one (I can't wait for a curb stomping for the Saxon's ).

[Cash]

I just finished reading his WWII Africa TL. It's very good! I can only hope that he does the same for this TL when he's done in 1942.

[Hoyahoo9]

Please don't let this die.

[Claudius]

Bumpity Bump

[Cymraeg]

I have let this one drift a bit. The kids that my wife teaches have been generous with their germs again, so I'm taking care of her and applying for jobs at the same time. I'll post something up by the end of the week.

[Cymraeg]

...or even earlier perhaps.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It had been quite some time since there had been as many cavalry assembled on the old training ground at the Deva garrison, but the 500 men on their horses made a stirring sight. Granted, their armour was not quite uniform so that they looked a bit rough and ready, but that was something that could be addressed as time went on.

Cato looked out at the units, which were organised into turmae, and repressed a smile of satisfaction. It had taken a lot of time to get to this point, months of recruiting and then endless training. The stapeda had complicated matters whilst at the same time simplifying things. He sighed. Teaching the men how to ride had been… interesting. There had been a lot of assumptions that had been left by the wayside, along with at least one broken leg.

Corcorix was continuing to surprise him. The boy was proving to be an excellent NCO, organised, tidy in his habits and not being prone to panic. He might possibly make a good officer one day.

“Very impressive,” said a voice behind him and he turned to see Aurelianus standing behind him. Old Poplicala was next to him and Cato saluted them both quickly. There was also a black-haired young man with odd, intense, green eyes standing just behind them.

“Thank you sir,” he said quietly. “We’re continuing to build the unit, but… it’s a good start.”

“Keep at it Primus Pilus,” Aurelianus encouraged him. “Oh, and I would like to ask a favour.”

“Sir?”

“This is my son,” he said, gesturing at the young man, who nodded seriously at Cato. “I’d be grateful if you could spare some time to get him trained on the stapeda. He’s a fast learner.”

Cato eyed the young man thoughtfully. Well, he didn’t look like one of the brainless butterflies that tended to appear around staff. Of course appearances could be deceptive, but for Aurelianus’s sake he hoped that the boy was at least moderately competent.

[FleetMac]

IT LIVES! :D
Nice little segment, Cymraeg. I can't help but wonder what Aurelianus' son's name could be....

[The Professor]

IT LIVES! :D
Nice little segment, Cymraeg. I can't help but wonder what Aurelianus' son's name could be....

Arcturus? :D

[Cash]

Yeehaw, Cato continues! "Odd, intense green eyes" -- hmmmm.

[Claudius]

Arcturus? :D

Perhaps Artorius, Dux Bellorum et Rex

[pike]

I hope the Britons send ambassadors establish relations and bolster trade with the east and west Romans. The money would be good yes maybe even buy some ships for the new navy and hire some expirenced crew.