Map Continuation X - Map 4 - Africa

[Gandavien]

Map Continuation X



Africa



Africa is going to work a bit differently. As almost the entire continent will be under the thrall of European powers, we will have to work carefully in creating a realistic colonial pattern. We will be having a sort of ‘Africa Conference’ so claim will be changed significantly – it is more pertinent to say we are only suggesting territories. Therefore, here are some suggestions for colonial players:


Don’t feel afraid to grab lots of land.
Push inland, don’t leave gaps.
Leave space for the chief colonial power (Britain-analogue).
Feel free to cut into other people’s claims and nudge borders here and there.
Be realistic historically – if your nations borders the Mediterranean, it is likely to have colonies in North Africa.

YOU DON’T NEED TO HAVE COLONIES. Just because you’ve created a European nation, doesn’t mean it needs to have colonies. Think about how many countries had African colonies in OTL: Britain, France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Spain and Portugal. That’s seven. Spain, Italy and Belgium had minimal holdings, with only Britain and France having serious empires in the continent. In TTL, we’ll find Portugal, Mauretana, England, Castile and Sweden for sure. Yemen has some bits and pieces of the east coast. PORTUGAL HAS THE SUEZ CANAL due to its holdings in India and Australia.

Areas coloured grey on the map are NOT allowed to be claimed on, as they are part of other continents. Borders must be ONE PIXEL THICK and coloured black. The map must always be saved as a PNG image.

The moderators are myself, Trovador, Benkarnell and Knepah, and we have reserve a right to alter borders slightly if we see fit. Note that you may claim several nations on one continent, but try to keep it to no more than two unless we need more.

[Iserlohn]

Scottish West Africa, as well as St. Andrews (OTL's Reunion).

Probably going to add a third minor African colony south of the equator located on the mainland, but only after more people claimed.

[Trovador]

Before anything, I'll claim the core lands of the Kingdom of Mauretana, a western and catholic nation, originated from the Portuguese and Castillian conquests over the Marinid Sultanate, in the XVth century.

I do plan to claim colonial lands in Africa per se, but this lands I'm posting now are not open to colonial bargain.

[JJDXB]

Venetian Claims. North Africa and Indian Ocean.

EDIT: Updated.

[Turquoise Blue]

Here is the Federated Dominion of África do Sul, a Luzophone nation

[Yelnoc]

I want to play as a native Ethiopian state! Claim coming in a few minutes...

[QuoProQuid]

The entirety of Papal Africa. Since the 1860s, officials have been trying to integrate the colonial holding into the rest of the state. This basically means Converting the inhabitants, 're-educating', developing infrastructure and in some cases dumping Italians into the territory. Results have varied. Greatly. Although usually well-meaning, occasionally these actions do more harm than good.

Large sections of the coastline and a few inland pockets of land are considered to be 'integrated', meaning that in theory they have the same rights and are governed in the same way as Papal possessions in Europe. When referring to the land, the words 'developing autonomous territory' are much more common than that of 'colony' as in recent years Popes have become uncomfortable using the term (even though that is exactly what they are).

http://i.imgur.com/FaLtE.png

[Turquoise Blue]

OK, Major map clash. Papal Africa and the Venetian colonies is the problem

[Gandavien]

NO NEW MAPS UNTIL I POST A COMPLETE VERSION. COMING IN SEVERAL SECONDS.

[Knepah]

East African Free State
Founded through rebellion by white settlers unsatisfied with the lack of representation - probably a former English or Scottish colony. Based vaguely on the Boers, except largely friendly of the African natives.


http://i.imgur.com/OROw0.png

[Knepah]

Sorry, Gandavian, didn't refresh the page until I'd posted. I hope my claim isn't ignored as a consequence.

[QuoProQuid]

Oh whoops! I apologize, I did not see your claim. You must have replied while I was uploading my map.

Let me see if I can fix that if Gan does not himself. Sorry again.

[Gandavien]

Sorry Knepah, I didn't see your claim until after I made the map. I've given Papal Africa over Venetian Africa as I don't see Venice having the resources to maintain this colony. I've given Venice those little islands though.

[Knepah]

http://i.imgur.com/tmqyh.png

Included my claim.

[TurkishCapybara]

Mameluk Sultnate, Ottoman Somalia and Socotra.

PORTUGAL HAS THE SUEZ CANAL due to its holdings in India and Australia.

I dont think Protugalwould have control over the canal as the Mameluks are Modern and Powerful, not backwards like Egypt/Ottoman Empire OTL.

[Turquoise Blue]

2 things wrong with your map. firstly you are using África do Sul's colour. secondly Portugal owns the Suez Canal.

[Gandavien]

2 things wrong with your map. firstly you are using África do Sul's colour. secondly Portugal owns the Suez Canal.
Thirdly ugly borders and fourthly inexplicably Ottoman Somalia.

[Knepah]

Thirdly ugly borders and fourthly inexplicably Ottoman Somalia.

Fifthly my claim missed out.

[Trovador]

Ok, if no one will start to make exagerated claims, I will.

Here are the claims of the Kingdom of Mauretana, "rightful owners of Africa" (:D:rolleyes:)

The claims are the Desert of Sarrara, the Negoro River and the Camarones River, as well as a small East African possession.

[TurkishCapybara]

Fifthly my claim missed out.

In 1694, a particularly Greedy Yemeni sultan requested assistance in the subjugation of Mutapa, or Great Zimbabwe. The Portuguese refused, citing the gold flowing from Zimbabwe, and threatened to cut off trading relations, as excellent as they were. The sultan reluctantly stepped down.


Your claim is Mutapa/Zimbabwe, A key part of Yemeni History is this, and Portugal wants it. Your nation owns this region.

[Turquoise Blue]

Sigh, a MC is always hard to mod sometimes.

[Trovador]

Your claim is Mutapa/Zimbabwe, A key Part of Yemeni History is this, and Protugal Wants it. Your nation owns this region.

But the claim is legit: the Portuguese colonizers and the Mutapans allied to expell the Portuguese, for example. Time flows, so Mutapa could have been Portuguese when Yemen asked for it, but was then lost - maybe in the same period that África do Sul gained independence?

[Turquoise Blue]

But the claim is legit: the Portuguese colonizers and the Mutapans allied to expell the Portuguese, for example. Time flows, so Mutapa could have been Portuguese when Yemen asked for it, but was then lost - maybe in the same period that África do Sul gained independence?

África do Sul gained its independence slowly, nobody can put down a certain independence date.

[QuoProQuid]

Um, no offense intended Turk but those borders are a tad ugly and the Mameluks seem to control about a fifth of Africa. Could you tone the Mameluks down slightly?

[Turquoise Blue]

Um, no offense intended Turk but those borders are a tad ugly and the Mameluks seem to control about a fifth of Africa.
Look at Mauretania's extension

[ImmortalImpi]

Could you by and chance take away your East African possesion, Travador? I just wrote a large history on that area.

[Trovador]

África do Sul gained its independence slowly, nobody can put down a certain independence date.
Oh, right, I missed that - and, uhnm, interesting concept.

Look at Mauretania's extension
Mauretanan Colonial Africa is only a proposal - though MOST of it is desert that no one really wants, and it's at least easier to reach from Mauretana than from any other place.

EDIT:
@ImmortalImpi: of course, go ahead.

[QuoProQuid]

Look at Mauretania's extension


Oh wow.

Trov, you may want to tone down your claims a bit too. I know it is mostly desert, but I think the game would benefit from a somewhat lesser claim.

[ImmortalImpi]

If everyone wouldn't mind, I'll put down yemen's stuff.

[QuoProQuid]

If everyone wouldn't mind, I'll put down yemen's stuff.

Go ahead. I really enjoyed your history on Yemen and am interested to see their African expansion in map form. As long as it is not ludicrously excessive, I'll be happy to approve.

[ImmortalImpi]

Here we are. I can tone down Mozambique, fix some ugly borders, but I'd prefer if it stayed like this. I can make it more straight, if you guys like.

137828

[Knepah]

Anybody else notice how the border is gammy in North Africa?

[Trovador]

Oh wow.

Trov, you may want to tone down your claims a bit too. I know it is mostly desert, but I think the game would benefit from a somewhat lesser claim.

Yeah, I agree it's too large. But this is, I don't know, "Antwerpen Conference" (our ATL Berlin Conference), so every proposal must be taken "with a grain of salt", as they are at best intentions than actual claims, most of time.
The original plan was that the major powers should do some broad claims like this, and then redivide the lands.

[JJDXB]

I still think Venice has the resources to hold a little more than small islands, but I suppose they would have thought it unprofitable to hold parts of North Africa, and in the characteristic Venetian way, would have ignored it. I will probably add some small Venetian outposts in Central West Africa since these are likely to have been the most profitable.

Venice had always been about what gave them the most profit, and managed holdings in Greece until the 7th (!) Ottoman-Venetian war in the early 1700s.

Thus, as always, Venice would have looked to expand on islands.

Expect further claims from the office of the Doge. ;)

[Splatter123]

Portuguese African claims

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[ImmortalImpi]

Portuguese African claims


I gave you a detailed history of cooperation between our peoples and you took Eritrea, which I mentioned as mine? Also a nono on the Nile delta.

[JJDXB]

Venetian holdings in West Africa. If the mainland colony is unrealistic, I do not really mind that being taken away, so long as the islands remain ;)

[ImmortalImpi]

These borders need to be more straight and arbitrary.

[Splatter123]

Better? :confused:

137832

[QuoProQuid]

Could we fix Northern Africa before moving on? It is a tad distracting.


Also, I think either Portugal or the UK would control that corner under Mauretania.

[Trovador]

Better? :confused:

137832

Portugal is the main colonial power of this world, remember?
It should control, I don't know, half of Africa, at least.

I'm updating the map, please wait.

[ImmortalImpi]

Better? :confused:



IMO you should get the rest of Mozambique, parts of Cameroon, the Congo, and Angola, and maybe Kenya. You dominate the Indian route.

[TurkishCapybara]

Is this a Little Better?

[ImmortalImpi]

We should leave room for an Ethiopian state, and fix those goddamn borders in North Africa.

[TurkishCapybara]

We should leave room for an Ethiopian state, and fix those goddamn borders in North Africa.

Ethiopia should be demolished by Yemen and the Mameluks, possibly as a Vassal/Protectorate/Codominium?

[ImmortalImpi]

Ethiopia should be demolished by Yemen and the Mameluks, possibly as a Vassal/Protectorate/Codominium?

I would place it as an area where Yemen and the Mamluks are competing over influence, like persia between Russia and Britain in the great game.

[TurkishCapybara]

I would place it as an area where Yemen and the Mamluks are competing over influence, like persia between Russia and Britain in the great game.


Thats fine in my Opinion.

[ImmortalImpi]

And Turkish, while you're at it, fix the North African border?

[Trovador]

Ok, here's a general idea for Portugal.

Sorry, but I swaped the lands controlled by Yemen to Somalia, mostly, except for Zanzibar region, Moçambique and some ports.

Yes, Mauretana is still huge over the Sahara. Make "more plausible" claims at your will.

[ImmortalImpi]

Editing, now.

[ImmortalImpi]

Alright. You gotta remember the Yemenis are in it for the Coffee/other plantations crops. they're not going to want any of the Somalian coast.

137839

[Yelnoc]

Posting Ethiopia....

[False Dmitri]

Small claims for the Luxemburgs. This overlaps with Portugal, I know. I'm writing a big paper and am drawing on the map very, very slowly. :p This is about the size I anticipate, but obviously locations will move around.

[TurkishCapybara]

Ethiopia.....

[QuoProQuid]

Papal Africa did not need to be expanded. I am fine with them having more territory, but perhaps the land would be better suited for an independent state.

Or would such a nation be unlikely to exist because of competition between the Mameluks and Mauretania and the Pope pressuring them from the north?

[ImmortalImpi]

In Libya it would probably be either a European nation having it or having it as a Mamluk state. It's too poor of an area for the small population to resist annexation.

[TurkishCapybara]

Papal Africa did not need to be expanded. I am fine with them having more territory, but perhaps the land would be better suited for an independent state.

Or would such a nation be unlikely to exist because of competition between the Mameluks and Mauretania?


It would be Too Lowly Populated and too worthless.

[Turquoise Blue]

I think half of the empty land above África do Sul and west of Portugese Africa should be Portugese.

[QuoProQuid]

Alright then. I understand. Just wondering.

[ImmortalImpi]

Ok, we need to slow this down a bit. Please indicate that you are claiming before you post a map. That being said, look at my map for the most up to date map, and make your edits on that. Please do not make a map after someone else has claimed and then post.

[Trovador]

The pope, as others, recieve sometimes more land they actually have claimed for, simply to give the land a owner, as only beduins would live in such region.

A general suggestion:

[ImmortalImpi]

Either give the Ottos what they want in Somalia or give to someone else.

And what are we going to do with that little piece of land in Central Africa near Somalia?

[TurkishCapybara]

The Blue Squiggle that is North of the Congo is ASB and Wierd.

[Turquoise Blue]

Remove the doodle that some guy put on the map. If it is supposed to be an actual lake then clean it up and fill it in.

[ImmortalImpi]

Remove the doodle that some guy put on the map. If it is supposed to be an actual lake then clean it up and fill it in.

That's Lake Chad. This map isn't a 1900 accurate map, and Lake Chad should be filled in. We'll do that after.

[TurkishCapybara]

The Large Blue Colony that is North of the Congo is ASB and Wierd.

[Yelnoc]

CALM DOWN.

Turkish guy, I claimed Ethiopia. Here it is.

[ImmortalImpi]

CALM DOWN.

Turkish guy, I claimed Ethiopia. Here it is.

Eritrea is Yemeni.

[Iserlohn]

Well I have an idea regarding Madagascar:

Maybe ITTL no kingdom became dominant on the island OR was able to defend itself from European influence/colonialization as well as it almost it OTL. Instead it quickly fell into the hands of a single colonial power (Scotland because of the proximity with the now independent East African Free State) with a few "Princely States".

In return Anglo-Hibernia recieves Somalia.

Kinda like this.

EDIT: Also I like Yelnoc's Ethiopia, except that there really needs to be a Yemen-in-Africa/Yemenite Eriterea (?).

[Turquoise Blue]

Should we give the Knights Sinai and call it done?

[QuoProQuid]

Should we give the Knights Sinai and call it done?

I was about to ask the same question, actually.

Does anyone have any qualms?

[ImmortalImpi]

EDIT: Also I like Yelnoc's Ethiopia, except that there really needs to be a Yemen-in-Africa/Yemenite Eriterea (?).

It would the Emirite of Eritrea under Yemen. When the map's done I'll do some explaining on the Emirates.

[ImmortalImpi]

I was about to ask the same question, actually.

Does anyone have any qualms?

I personally have no problem with it.

[Yelnoc]

Eritrea is Yemeni.

Seriously? I claimed Ethiopia on the first page and then got sidetracked :(

This is my only state; are you playing more than one?

[QuoProQuid]

I think we should go for South America next.

After some brief discussion, that is.

[ImmortalImpi]

Seriously? I claimed Ethiopia on the first page and then got sidetracked :(

This is my only state; are you playing more than one?

Nah, just Yemen. I had a large history about it on the Meganesia page.

[Turquoise Blue]

Here is the potentially last map of Africa.

[ImmortalImpi]

I think we should go for South America next.

After some brief discussion, that is.

Well, first off, we need to fix that large colony in Central Africa(the blue one) that has a tiny little coast.

Also, there are double thick borders everywhere.

[ImmortalImpi]

Here is the potentially last map of Africa.

Let Yelnoc add Ethiopia, give me Eritrea, and then I can start going around fixing the double thick demons.

[Yelnoc]

Nah, just Yemen. I had a large history about it on the Meganesia page.

Hrmm, ok...

Well how about Yemen keeps Eritrea but the green space-filling empire gets out of my southern territory and the pink space-filling empire withdraws from Somalia?

EDIT:
Oh yeah, and the brown space-filling empire needs to not encroach in the north.

[ImmortalImpi]

Hrmm, ok...

Well how about Yemen keeps Eritrea but the green space-filling empire gets out of my southern territory and the pink space-filling empire withdraws from Somalia?

EDIT:
Oh yeah, and the brown space-filling empire needs to not encroach in the north.

Well, I don't know about Somalia. Ethiopia was confined to the Highlands for its entire history.

[Yelnoc]

Well, I don't know about Somalia. Ethiopia was confined to the Highlands for its entire history.

This is a different history. I had some ideas about Ethiopia conquering Adal in the middle ages and then subsequently holding off the Blue-eyed Devils. I guess we will have to somehow work you taking Eritrea into the equation....

[ImmortalImpi]

This is a different history. I had some ideas about Ethiopia conquering Adal in the middle ages and then subsequently holding off the Blue-eyed Devils. I guess we will have to somehow work you taking Eritrea into the equation....

The problem is that Ethiopia holding Adal against the Europeans would have been difficult. Ethiopia evaded conquest as it was locked deep in its highlands. Its coast would have been taken away in the scenario of them having one.

[Turquoise Blue]

I think we should go for South America next.

After some brief discussion, that is.
I recommend Fernandia for the southern continent.

[Yelnoc]

The problem is that Ethiopia holding Adal against the Europeans would have been difficult. Ethiopia evaded conquest as it was locked deep in its highlands. Its coast would have been taken away in the scenario of them having one.

Maybe, or maybe Ethiopia industrialized with the rest of the west? This is why I say we should work out history before claiming blobs on a map.

[Gandavien]

I recommend Fernandia for the southern continent.No discussion of South America yet please.

[Turquoise Blue]

No discussion of South America yet please.
Okay, I'll not talk about S.America for now.

[ImmortalImpi]

Maybe, or maybe Ethiopia industrialized with the rest of the west? This is why I say we should work out history before claiming blobs on a map.

Sounds interesting, to say the least. I'd like to know how it happened, though did they convert the Somalians, kill them, or just let them be?

[Lyly]

What happened to having new and unique independent African nations? Ethiopia was independent IOTL.

Also, this map of Africa is UGLAY.

[TurkishCapybara]

Can I try to fix it up?

[Turquoise Blue]

What happened to having new and unique independent African nations? Ethiopia was independent IOTL.

Also, this map of Africa is UGLAY.
MCs sometimes prouduce beautiful maps and sometimes ugly ones.

[ImmortalImpi]

Can I try to fix it up?

Alright. Give Ethiopia the horn, I would say, of Africa, along with Mogadishu, and make them independent. Add Yemeni Eritrea and fix those double thick demons!

[Gandavien]

What happened to having new and unique independent African nations? Ethiopia was independent IOTL.

Also, this map of Africa is UGLAY.
I'm inclined to agree with you.

[QuoProQuid]

What happened to having new and unique independent African nations? Ethiopia was independent IOTL.

Also, this map of Africa is UGLAY.

Was Colonial Africa ever particularly beautiful?

I would suggest reverting the Mameluks to back behind their double lined border. The current extension beyond makes little sense to me. We could also stuff some independent powers there. Make them puppets/ vassals of whomever.

You could divide Madagascar into some a sort of Confederation of Princely States administered and controlled by Scotland. Add some wacky internal borders to show a loose bond.

[Yelnoc]

So, does the above discussion mean I can keep my northern and southern borders and Somalia in exchange for giving ImmortalImpi Eritrea?

Sounds interesting, to say the least. I'd like to know how it happened, though did they convert the Somalians, kill them, or just let them be?

I'd say a mixture of all three. The original invasion would have been bloody, but utter dominance by the Coptic Christians would have prompted eventual conversions, starting in a trickle and ending in large numbers. However, there is still a very large Muslim community that Ethiopia has been able to placate by allowing them some autonomy, treating them well, and protecting them from the foreigners.

At least, that's the plan

[Trovador]

Ok, I'm cleaning a little the borders of Western and Southern Africa. I'll leave Ethiopia to Yelnoc and ImmortalImpi to work on.

[ImmortalImpi]

When you guys do the Ethnic map later, use this to work off of.

http://www.worldpossible.org/rachel/wikip/images/281/28109.png

[Trovador]

Colonial Africa, now 42.23% less UGLAY (I hope).

Now the borders still follow rivers, but most of time they follow straight lines between rivers, instead of random straight lines (except for the Sahara) or funny looking rivers.

Mauretana lost its eastern possessions and Timbuktu, but kept Bissau (ITTL Bissagos), the mouth of the Niger (ITTL Negoro) and the Sahara (ITTL Sarrara).

---

Do you think France deserves that land in Cameroon?

EDIT: further de-ugly-fied.

[QuoProQuid]

Nice, I would suggest getting rid of that spike at the bottom of Papal Africa though.

[TurkishCapybara]

Fixed up Africa.

[QuoProQuid]

Fixed up Africa.

The open space was being left open for Yelnoc and ImmortalImpi to work out.

Also, did the Mameluks just steal large swaths of land from Portugal, the UK, Scotland, the Knights and gain partial control over the Suez? I can understand some mild territorial increases for them to make the borders look better, but the change seems rather excessive.

[Trovador]

Fixed up Africa.

In order to respect Louxemburgish claims, give land inside Africa to France rather than Venice, and give a second port to the portuguese in the Indian Ocean, can this be a compromise?

edit: I'm still waiting the proposal of Yelnoc and ImmortalImpi, as they're the main interested in Eastern Africa

[ImmortalImpi]

Just give the Portugese a more northerly port in East Africa so I don't have my colony cut off.

[TurkishCapybara]

Trovador You Map has many:

-Edited Coasts
-Convergent Borders.
-ASB Territories
-More than One Pixel Borders.

Please Fix it.

[Trovador]

Just give the Portugese a more northerly port in East Africa so I don't have my colony cut off.
Sounds like a good solution.

Trovador You Map has many:

-Edited Coasts
-Convergent Borders.
-ASB Territories
-More than One Pixel Borders.

Please Fix it.

-Edited Coasts?
-Most borders I used are river-based. Please tell me which ones are too convergent.
-I use accessbility to designate who should be the owner of inner lands, and Mauretana, for example, has easier access to Chad than Mamluks, once they have access to the Niger. Is this kind of "ASB'ness"?
-Yes, hundreds of more-than-one-pixel-borders. I'm going to fix them, one, day, but only after we decided which borders are the final ones.

Oh, and Cabo Verde is unclaimed.

[Yelnoc]

Obviously I am ok with Ethiopia as is but if ImmortalImpi really went Eritrea we will have to really work out our histories before all of this map stuff.

I'll edit this what I was thinking of in a second; I have to go check something.

[ImmortalImpi]

Obviously I am ok with Ethiopia as is but if ImmortalImpi really went Eritrea we will have to really work out our histories before all of this map stuff.

I'll edit this what I was thinking of in a second; I have to go check something.

My history had Eritrea under Mamelukian rule before Yemen conquered it.

[Yelnoc]

My history had Eritrea under Mamelukian rule.

Who is playing as the Mameluks? And where is your history?

[ImmortalImpi]

Who is playing as the Mameluks? And where is your history?

Look at my edit, and here http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=4432528&postcount=130

[Yelnoc]

Look at my edit, and here http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=4432528&postcount=130

Ok, but it's important to know who the Mameluks are so that they can put their flavor on Eritrea's history.

[TurkishCapybara]

1.(-Edited Coasts?)
Chad.

2.(-Most borders I used are river-based. Please tell me which ones are too convergent.)

Scotland-in-England-In-Portugal, beside that Scottish Territory that less sense then counting Modern Bosnia as being able to do colonisation.

3.(-I use accessbility to designate who should be the owner of inner lands, and Mauretana, for example, has easier access to Chad than Mamluks, once they have access to the Niger. Is this kind of "ASB'ness"?)

-Accessabillity is only in the eye of the beholder.




4.(-Yes, hundreds of more-than-one-pixel-borders. I'm going to fix them, one, day, but only after we decided which borders are the final ones.)

One Day = Nao.

[Yelnoc]

Ok, so in your history you wrest Eritrea from the Mameluks in the mid-1800's. Meaning you did not interfere in Africa up until then. That still leaves some problems. How was Ethiopia able to survive and grow as an empire if they did not control the core region of Eritrea? Mameluk dominance would shut Ethiopia down and make their control of Somalia extremely unlikely.

My POD was al-Ghazi turning out be an incompetent military leader who would be able to access cannon because the Ottoman Empire did not control Yemen. Because Adal was a vassal of Ethiopia, this war would result in Adal's annexation. With this, Ethiopia would gain dominance over Somalia, establishing tribute states because the Somali had supported al-Ghazi.

That basically puts us through the 16th century with Ethiopia as the east african hegemon. I just don't see how the Mameluks could take Eritrea without the Empire collapsing.

[False Dmitri]

Wow, this went fast. Thanks for preserving most of what I asked for the Luxemburgs. (Never "Luxemburgish" any more than you'd talk about "Habsburgish" or "Hohenzollernian" colonies!) If I had been around, I'd have asked to consider giving Sinai to Sham instead of to the Knights.

I had expected more tributary and puppet states, but if (as it sounds) Europe colonized Africa more during the 1500s than in OTL and colonized the Americas less, then massive empires would definitely be the norm.

On the other hand, greater European interest in Africa during this era would mean moure countries having an interest in the West African coast - Mauretania shouldn't have such a long stretch of uninterrupted coastline. I think it would be better to see it pockmarked with very old colonies of various nations.

Cape Verde probably ends up being Portuguese, I can't see it going any other way. Madeira too. Maybe the Azores can go to the country that beat Portugal out to the Americas... who would that have been? Other unclaimed islands include the Comoros, Seychelles, Mauritius, St Helena, Ascension, Tristan da Cunha... and Malta. What colonial powers in the Indies do not yet have any African real estate? They'd be prime candidates for small island microcolonies along the route eastward.

[Knepah]

Requesting an Africa map overlay.

Also, the idea of a MC is to build the map and then construct the history around it the outcome. Please try not to write too much of an in-depth history before you claim.

The rule is that you can't make a claim until the map is posted - yet people have written histories already saying a country has colonies in x-land, y-land, z-land. It doesn't work that way, and it's not fair for somebody to have their claims disregarded because of others bending the rules like that.

First come, first serve in future, please.

EDIT: Can I also add how frustrating it is that a history that I had planned out in my head for my African claim has to be re-designed to be a former-Portuguese/former-Yemeni colony because somebody decided in the Meganesia thread, that said region had been predetermined to belong to another state in a different thread. I'm quite certain that that is against the rules. How exactly am I supposed to justify the existence of a free state founded through rebellion when it is swamped by neighbouring Yemeni and (the extensive) Portuguese imperial claims? My suggestion would be to give Benkarnell a piece of land in South-East Africa neighbouring my state in which for him to develop a state.

Also, how come in both the MCs have attempted to take part in, Africa has been a plethora of imperial possessions? Why can't imperialism have died out by start year, to give us the more interesting job of writing the histories of post-colonial nations riddled with problems? Why did we have to start at 1900 in both MC3 and MCX? Why can't we start in 2011?

[Trovador]

1.(-Edited Coasts?)
Chad.

2.(-Most borders I used are river-based. Please tell me which ones are too convergent.)

Scotland-in-England-In-Portugal, beside that Scottish Territory that less sense then counting Modern Bosnia as being able to do colonisation.

3.(-I use accessbility to designate who should be the owner of inner lands, and Mauretana, for example, has easier access to Chad than Mamluks, once they have access to the Niger. Is this kind of "ASB'ness"?)

-Accessabillity is only in the eye of the beholder.


4.(-Yes, hundreds of more-than-one-pixel-borders. I'm going to fix them, one, day, but only after we decided which borders are the final ones.)

One Day = Nao.
...I really don't see how the Scottish colony can be that wrong, but anyway, I agree that my version is far from perfect, and I've not said it's the final version - it's another proposal only.
And, no, I'll not clean the map until we confirm we ended it.

Wow, this went fast. Thanks for preserving most of what I asked for the Luxemburgs. (Never "Luxemburgish" any more than you'd talk about "Habsburgish" or "Hohenzollernian" colonies!) If I had been around, I'd have asked to consider giving Sinai to Sham instead of to the Knights.

I had expected more tributary and puppet states, but if (as it sounds) Europe colonized Africa more during the 1500s than in OTL and colonized the Americas less, then massive empires would definitely be the norm.

On the other hand, greater European interest in Africa during this era would mean moure countries having an interest in the West African coast - Mauretania shouldn't have such a long stretch of uninterrupted coastline. I think it would be better to see it pockmarked with very old colonies of various nations.

Cape Verde probably ends up being Portuguese, I can't see it going any other way. Madeira too. Maybe the Azores can go to the country that beat Portugal out to the Americas... who would that have been? Other unclaimed islands include the Comoros, Seychelles, Mauritius, St Helena, Ascension, Tristan da Cunha... and Malta. What colonial powers in the Indies do not yet have any African real estate? They'd be prime candidates for small island microcolonies along the route eastward.
Well, my original idea was that these maps would be only 'general directions' and, after everyone agreed on which region belongs to who, we could start adding protectorates and maybe some other oddities. Most of these Portuguese and Anglish lands, for example, were not claimed by their 'players', but only suggested.

I agree that the west coast of colonial Mauretana should be 'pockmarked' with colonial ports. I only claimed the general area, but it's obviously open to other nations to claim small pieces of it, as it makes sense.

Requesting an Africa map overlay.

Also, the idea of a MC is to build the map and then construct the history around it the outcome. Please try not to write too much of an in-depth history before you claim.

The rule is that you can't make a claim until the map is posted - yet people have written histories already saying a country has colonies in x-land, y-land, z-land. It doesn't work that way, and it's not fair for somebody to have their claims disregarded because of others bending the rules like that.

First come, first serve in future, please.

Yeah, I agree, specially when the descriptions are too specific of which land they should have.

---

Anyway, I think this map is not finished - few to no one is trully happy with it, but at least we have a better idea, now, of how Africa shall be divided.
What do you think if we 'start again' this map, but this time with the general shape of Africa already decided (by general shape, I mean Yemeni East Africa, independent and lusophone South Africa, strong Portugal, independent Ethiopia, Mauretanan Sahara etc)?

Or even start from the beggining, with only the 'native' nations and the pre-1820 settlements.

We could start again over something like this and continue as we did in the previous phases of MCX:

[False Dmitri]

I second that, Knepah. I also second the idea of more post colonial nations, especially if Africa developed along an earlier time scale than in OTL - though I do not think it should be entirely, or even mostly, decolonized.

[Lyly]

Okay, if we are starting back from the top (which I agree is a good idea. Even if we end up with a similar map as before, we all know more or less where we all stand in opinions and desires), I'd like to say that I rather liked the general shape and area of land that Portugal controlled.

I think it may be a good idea to kind of start in the past as well, and then extrapolate the current from that. That is to say, look at what Africa looked like at the height of colonialism, when ever that was, and then see what happened since then.

[chris456]

i hate timezones :mad:

[QuoProQuid]

Hmmm... do we really need to start over? Could we not just make alterations to the current map?

If we are starting over, I'll add this back in. It is a small enough chunk of land that I do not think it would really interfere in or severely hamper the affairs of independent African states.

http://i.imgur.com/hl1JE.png

[Trovador]

I also second the idea of more post colonial nations, especially if Africa developed along an earlier time scale than in OTL - though I do not think it should be entirely, or even mostly, decolonized.
And I third that. This is the main reason why I want the map to be 'redone', this time with a more Map Continuation feel, and less of colonial claiming, as it seems the second idea didn't work that well.

i hate timezones :mad:
You're not the only one.

Hmmm... do we really need to start over? Could we not just make alterations to the current map?

If we are starting over, I'll add this back in. It is a small enough chunk of land that I do not think it would really interfere in or severely hamper the affairs of independent African states.

Ahn, ues, we could just make alterations to the current map, but this would mix up which claims are real and which ones are only space-filling colonial randomness(and I admit I am responsible for most of that).

Here are the 'legit' claims made so far - the borders without black lines are basically open to expansion/retraction (the blackbordered ones are as well, but are somewhat defined already).
I've added, also, the São Cristóvão Federation, another lusophone independent nation. Is that ok?

[Turquoise Blue]

The Sao Christo Federation probably borders Africa do Sul in the south

[chris456]

i claim now :D

[chris456]

Panzerstadt Südafricka and no this does not belong to Hannover but more a long the line of a joint German colony wich expanded a bit

off-topic: have anyone seen that name before :D ?

[ImmortalImpi]

Even with the first come first serve logic I had Eritrea.

[chris456]

i thought we started over again?

[ImmortalImpi]

Alright, I don't know why people want so many independent African states, because it's impossible for more than Ethiopia and maybe a few slave havens supported by major nations.

The Portuegese aren't going to start giving free passes for their colonies to leave if they don't have a significant amount of whites in them, which is impossible for equatorial colonies.

[CobaltKnight]

I've been lurking on this for awhile now, and I'd like to make the suggestion that borders such as where the German Joint colony and that little rectangle down where Namibia is OTL. Straight borders like that, and this suggestion in for other places as well, would probably benefit the map overall aesthetically if the GJC followed the straight line until it ends; that way no other nations have an odd point "behind" another colony, as what seemed to happen with Portugal in the last map.

[Trovador]

Panzerstadt Südafricka and no this does not belong to Hannover but more a long the line of a joint German colony wich expanded a bit

off-topic: have anyone seen that name before :D ?
I don't totally oppose a Hannoverian claim, but:
-Panzerstadt? Like the walking cities of Mortal Engines? I think not. What did you mean with this name?
-We should give priority to the nations that have something in Asia and Meganesia, as they would need ports between the Spice Islands and Europe (it's not obligatory, though, as the Netherlands IOTL lost all their African lands by 1900). Luxembourg deserves some land, also, because it's a *very* strong power in Europe. So, well, the little germanies are not in top priority. The land you claimed, however, is mostly desert, so the could eventually buy it?
-How would a joint german colony in the driest african desert work, exactly? They're not gathering resources from it, nor gaining prestige for their own nations.

Even with the first come first serve logic I had Eritrea.
You're right, as we started again BUT with the pre 1850 claims in place.

Alright, I don't know why people want so many independent African states, because it's impossible for more than Ethiopia and maybe a few slave havens supported by major nations.

The Portuguese aren't going to start giving free passes for their colonies to leave if they don't have a significant amount of whites in them, which is impossible for equatorial colonies.
Uhnm, 'impossible' is a somewhat strong word, specially if Portugal never colonised the Americas (due to an alternate Tordesillas Treaty, for example?), but I must agree that I may have made a bad moving adding São Cristovão. But, again, if the Portuguese colonized Angola like they did in Brazil, since 1550, it's not that unlikely, is it?

edit:
@CobaltKnight: as long as it's not too far inland, so that they can still supply the inner lands, I agree.

[ImmortalImpi]

Uhnm, 'impossible' is a somewhat strong word, specially if Portugal never colonised the Americas (due to an alternate Tordesillas Treaty, for example?), but I must agree that I may have made a bad moving adding São Cristovão. But, again, if the Portuguese colonized Angola like they did in Brazil, since 1550, it's not that unlikely, is it?

Portugal will not give up its colonies to natives at the very apex of its power in 1900. It could give up South Africa, but all oher colonies would not be given similar treatment, possibly due to European sympathies of racial superiority.

Equatorial Africa is populated almost entirely of Bantu Africans, and any European walking within 5 feet of the rain forest without Quinine would drop dead. Even with it, none of the colonial masters were able to encourage immigration to their colonies, except Britain to South Africa.

So we're left with Natives trying to rise up. I'd like to note that native risings tend to end terribly for the natives and with subsequent genocides appearing after that. The unfortunate fact is that at this time the Natives have neither the supplies nor the manpower to wage a successfull war on the Portuegese. The closest example is the Mahdist Revolt in Sudan in OTL, but that ended when the Mahdi died of Typhus.

[Trovador]

Portugal will not give up its colonies to natives at the very apex of its power in 1900. It could give up South Africa, but all oher colonies would not be given similar treatment, possibly due to European sympathies of racial superiority.

Equatorial Africa is populated almost entirely of Bantu Africans, and any European walking within 5 feet of the rain forest without Quinine would drop dead. Even with it, none of the colonial masters were able to encourage immigration to their colonies, except Britain to South Africa.

So we're left with Natives trying to rise up. I'd like to note that native risings tend to end terribly for the natives and with subsequent genocides appearing after that. The unfortunate fact is that at this time the Natives have neither the supplies nor the manpower to wage a successfull war on the Portuegese. The closest example is the Mahdist Revolt in Sudan in OTL, but that ended when the Mahdi died of Typhus.

I agree with both points: independent colonies inside equatorial jungle would be quite unprobable, and Portugal would not let its colonies to go away when it was the strongest nation.
São Cristovão, however, is mostly no inside Equatorial Jungle, but Tropical open woods, like inner Brazil - not the easiest place to colonize, but easier than main Kongo or Niger.
Second, this colonies don't need to have gained independence in the last 10 years, but in the 1810s, when Portugal was, I don't know, in a somewhat less stable moment, or in a war against european powers. The portuguese managed to keep most of their colonial lands, but the "whiter" lands were lost.

[ImmortalImpi]

I agree with both points: independent colonies inside equatorial jungle would be quite unprobable, and Portugal would not let its colonies to go away when it was the strongest nation.
São Cristovão, however, is mostly no inside Equatorial Jungle, but Tropical open woods, like inner Brazil - not the easiest place to colonize, but easier than main Kongo or Niger.
Second, this colonies don't need to have gained independence in the last 10 years, but in the 1810s, when Portugal was, I don't know, in a somewhat less stable moment, or in a war against european powers. The portuguese managed to keep most of their colonial lands, but the "whiter" lands were lost.

That doesn't change much. Even open woodland like Inner brazil would be extremely difficult to live in. Once again, any livestock would be killed and the humans along with them. Any area near the Congo before Quinine severely negates settlement of any kind and animals weren't even vaccinated until after.

[Turquoise Blue]

I would think to keep Africa do Sul like it is.

[False Dmitri]

If we're looking at an era of colonization that is longer and slower, then we should see some differences. Now it is true that Africa is not the Americas. You wouldn't have diseases wiping out all resistance immediately. But - with Mauritania as a precedent - you could make a case for a conquistador-like mindset among some Europeans who set out to conquer wider areas than trading posts, and which then form the basis of larger colonies, earlier. That is, I think, the Big Idea here, and it's one that has the potential to make TTL's Africa more than a rubber stamp of OTL.

With that in mind, this is one of the few other states of 1400 that could have survived under different conditions: the Emirate of Bornu. As you can see, it is undeniably a protectorate of the Mauritanians, but it is still a country in its own right. It may be smaller than implied here, at least on the western end.

I've also lightened up lots of the colors. UCS or no UCS, those dark shades they have for the Moors and Ottomans and Habsburgs are a pain to look at.

[Trovador]

That doesn't change much. Even open woodland like Inner brazil would be extremely difficult to live in. Once again, any livestock would be killed and the humans along with them. Any area near the Congo before Quinine severely negates settlement of any kind and animals weren't even vaccinated until after.

Yeah, not because of the land itself, but because of Malaria, I see.
Well, you have a point - and it is valid to any land that's not a desert, or in the Mediterranean, or in South Africa, or in Ethiopia. Southern Angola is somewhat acceptable, specially because of the transition Savannahs between the Kalahari desert and the woodlands plus the colder temperature - it would be in a similar situation of Pará, Maranhão and Ceará, in Brazil (but note that the population of this areas become as resistent to the endemic deseases as the natives, after a few generations, thanks to miscegenation. While southern Brazil kept fairly white, northeastern and northern Brazil are quite more mixed and, thus, resistant). But I agree that, even if it's colonizable, it may not be well developted enough to claim independence (note that 'may not' is not a 'can't', specially with a longer development of this colonies, like suggested by Benkarnell).

[JJDXB]

Seeing as those Islands IOTL Comoros etc make up were already in the Venetian Colour, I have expanded the polygon boundaries, as well as claiming IOTL Cape Verde and a small sliver of Equatorial Africa.

Names:

IOTL Cape Verde : Ixołe Speranze The Hope Islands
West Equatorial : Ixołe Vergini The Virgin Islands
Mainland Colony Venezuoła Little Venice (i.e. IOTL Venezuela :D)
East Equatorial Ixołe Trinità The Trinity Islands

[False Dmitri]

The suddenly-slow pace of the page is starting to make me think that any reboot would sap the fun out of the whole enterprise. MContinuations are supposed to be fun, at their roots. I've got a slow day, so I will work on a compromise version of the map that takes into account a lot of the ideas that were mentioned. The biggest problem seems to be that it's very similar to other MC maps... but that's what happens sometimes.

Yes, I'm flip flopping. ( | ) is all I have to say about that.

[Turquoise Blue]

The suddenly-slow pace of the page is starting to make me think that any reboot would sap the fun out of the whole enterprise. MContinuations are supposed to be fun, at their roots. I've got a slow day, so I will work on a compromise version of the map that takes into account a lot of the ideas that were mentioned. The biggest problem seems to be that it's very similar to other MC maps... but that's what happens sometimes.

Yes, I'm flip flopping. ( | ) is all I have to say about that.
I agree with you. keep Africa do Sul as is please.

[Gandavien]

NEW PLAN: Everyone stop doing anything to Africa.

We'll move on to South America and deal with Africa later. Or leave the mods to it.

So before we do so, we need to consider some things:


Who discovered it [person and country]?

When was it discovered?

What did they call the continent[s]?

What did they do when they got there [set up trading posts or just try to grab as much of it as possible]?

Do they still hold land there?

Who else colonised it?

Is it still heavily colonised?

[Turquoise Blue]

NEW PLAN: Everyone stop doing anything to Africa.

We'll move on to South America and deal with Africa later. Or leave the mods to it.
Good idea

So before we do so, we need to consider some things:


Who discovered it [person and country]?
Hmmm. I would suggest a French one, just to make it different.
When was it discovered?
About 1430-1480, I would think
What did they call the continent[s]?
maybe Morelia after a explorer named Morel?
What did they do when they got there [set up trading posts or just try to grab as much of it as possible]?
Trading posts, colonize later after they found out about other countries.
Do they still hold land there?
Maybe, its up to the posters.
Who else colonised it?
I would recommend Portugal.
Is it still heavily colonised?
As in controlled by colonial powers? I think not.

Viva la Recommendation!

[False Dmitri]

I was also going to suggest someone from France - whatever France may have looked like at the time. Going with our assumptions about this TL, I think it is certain that America was discovered later, not earlier. Who were the powers? Portugal was certainly heavily focused on Africa, so maybe not. Castile/Spain seems to have very few interests eastward, so it should have a strong presence in the west. Honestly, those details will come to light as people create nations.

[Iserlohn]

Seeing as those Islands IOTL Comoros etc make up were already in the Venetian Colour, I have expanded the polygon boundaries, as well as claiming IOTL Cape Verde and a small sliver of Equatorial Africa.

Names:

IOTL Cape Verde : Novo San Marco New Saint Mark
West Equatorial : Ixoła Vergini Virgin Islands
Mainland Colony Venezuoła Little Venice (i.e. IOTL Venezuela :D)
East Equatorial Novo Canarégio New Canareggio

I just want to note that originally I colored the Comores in when I claimed Madagascar for Scotland (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=4435954&postcount=69), however they were not decoloured/were recoloured when we went back to the ca.1800-stage. Seeing how both colours are almost identical, I don't blame you for this misjudgement. If you take it back.

@Gandavien:

Good plan, I say.

[Trovador]

NEW PLAN: Everyone stop doing anything to Africa.

We'll move on to South America and deal with Africa later. Or leave the mods to it.

So before we do so, we need to consider some things:


Who discovered it [person and country]?
The portuguese explorer Diogo Ferreira, but to the Lower French crown. The Portuguese had the "know-how" of seafaring, but not the motivation to discover new lands - they found a route to India already, after all.

When was it discovered?
Near 1515, some decades after the Portuguese created a solid route to India and when France was stable again.

What did they call the continent[s]?
Philippina, after the lower french king Philippe VII.

What did they do when they got there [set up trading posts or just try to grab as much of it as possible]?
They settled only trading posts until the discover of the Incas and Aztecs by the Castillians - then, both powers started to attack the natives to grab the gold and silver. Later, they colonized most of Phillipina Boreal, searching for the rare metals but without much luck.

Do they still hold land there?
Only in the Amazon and northern Phillipina Austral.

Who else colonised it?
The Mauretanans built their first trade posts in the southern part of the continent but, after they found gold in OTL Minas Gerais by the 1600s, they started a bigger colonization process. The Castillians had as much impact as the lower French, also, and maybe one of the northern powers could have colonized a little, too.

Is it still heavily colonised?
No, it's not, except for the central region of the "double continent".



Nice idea, by the way: Africa can be solved later.

[JJDXB]

I just want to note that originally I colored the Comores in when I claimed Madagascar for Scotland (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=4435954&postcount=69), however they were not decoloured/were recoloured when we went back to the ca.1800-stage. Seeing how both colours are almost identical, I don't blame you for this misjudgement. If you take it back.

@Gandavien:

Good plan, I say.

Oh no, its fine. I think somebody must have changed the colour after you did to Venice, since I checked that they were the same colour before I extended the border.

Feel free to take them back, except for the two largest near the bottom right, since those were my original claims. :)

Nice idea, by the way: Africa can be solved later.

Why would the continent have two L's and the king's name one? Its always the same mistake with the Philippines.

Philippina Boreala or Australa

[Trovador]

Why would the continent have two L's and the king's name one? Its always the same mistake with the Philippines.

Philippina Boreala or Australa
Oops, sorry! My bad.
I'll correct the OP.

[Iserlohn]

Oh no, its fine. I think somebody must have changed the colour after you did to Venice, since I checked that they were the same colour before I extended the border.

Feel free to take them back, except for the two largest near the bottom right, since those were my original claims. :)


Naturally I leave OTLs Reunion and Mauritius to you.

And thus the Comores shall become the Scottish stepping stone (of Scone) to Madagascar!

[JJDXB]

Corrected claims for Iserlohn.

I move that the colour of Venice be changed to avoid confusion. Perhaps something in a reddish purple?

[False Dmitri]

Let's not use that map anymore.

[Turquoise Blue]

I was also going to suggest someone from France - whatever France may have looked like at the time. Going with our assumptions about this TL, I think it is certain that America was discovered later, not earlier. Who were the powers? Portugal was certainly heavily focused on Africa, so maybe not. Castile/Spain seems to have very few interests eastward, so it should have a strong presence in the west. Honestly, those details will come to light as people create nations.
I'm thinking of a "United Morelian States" that is this world's equivalent to the USA, plus Philippia is not that catchy, Morelia would sound better

[JJDXB]

I don't think whoever named the place would really care about how catchy it was, only how much it could inflate his King's ego and thus increase his reward ;)

What about:

- Duartania or Henriquera (Portuguese)
-Isabelliana (Spanish)

[Turquoise Blue]

Carolina, after the French King at the time in OTL?

[Gandavien]

I don't think whoever named the place would really care about how catchy it was, only how much it could inflate his King's ego and thus increase his reward ;)
But that's not what happened in OTL, is it? America isn't named after a monarch.

[JJDXB]

But that's not what happened in OTL, is it? America isn't named after a monarch.

No, but this is ATL and thus it could have been named after a monarch ;)

Although, yes, it is possible they just name their respective claims after their monarchs.

What about Favonia, after the Roman God of the West Wind? If we went the route of Australia and named it Occidenia, then there would obviously be 'connections'. Vesperia?

[Gandavien]

No, but this is ATL and thus it could have been named after a monarch ;) This is true. What I mean to say is that you should branch out with your ideas: everyone has just come up with names derived from monarchs or explorers.

[Turquoise Blue]

This is true. What I mean to say is that you should branch out with your ideas: everyone has just come up with names derived from monarchs or explorers.
maybe Atlantis?

[JJDXB]

Compilation of my Ideas:

-Isabellia (Queen)
-Duartania (King)
-Henriquera (King)
-Favonia (God of the West Wind)
-Vesperia (Sunset)

New:
-Themiscyra (Capital of the Amazons)
-Elysia (I.e. Elysian Fields)
-Hesperidia (After the Greek nymphs purported to have lived in a far western corner of the world)

After 'fictional' explorers:
-Dandalonia
-Rossland
-Cortesia

[False Dmitri]

So much Classicism... how about a saint?

Elmia - from St Elmo, patron of sailors
Denisia - St Denis, patron of France
Santania - St Anne, patron of Brittany and so forth

[False Dmitri]

I already sent this to Gandavien, but I think it's a somewhat saner version of the final map before the reboot. Some colors were too similar to be useful, so adjustments have been made. Whoever it was that made Venetian blue essentially the same as French blue... no good. And this is obviously not a final version. It's a sloppy sketch so we can discuss borders and regions instead of pixel thickness.





This is my thinking:

Trovador specifically said that he claimed more than he thought was realistic and that everyone else would do the same. Well, nobody else did that, so I've reduced Mauritania's reach. Especially , I detached the Guinea/Nigeria colony from the bulk of the inland empire.
I've broken up Portugal's empire by giving England the central Congo, giving Luxemburg the Angola basin, and giving Yemen and the post-colonial Mozambique (whatever it was) more of a hinterland. At the same time, I gave Portugal a wider beachhead: more of the Tanzanian/Kenyan coast and Delagoa Bay in the southeast. An empire that huge needs a more solid base.
I squeezed in the Venetian colony in Tripolitania and the Turkish settlements in Somalia. I'm not too attached to either, but I did it out of respect for their early claims.
France and Netherlands each got something small.
I kept those borders I made for Bornu because I think they look neat. Just consider them part of the Mauretanian empire.

[Lyly]

I like that map.

[Turquoise Blue]

I like that map.
Me too........

[Trovador]

I already sent this to Gandavien, but I think it's a somewhat saner version of the final map before the reboot. Some colors were too similar to be useful, so adjustments have been made. Whoever it was that made Venetian blue essentially the same as French blue... no good. And this is obviously not a final version. It's a sloppy sketch so we can discuss borders and regions instead of pixel thickness.





This is my thinking:

Trovador specifically said that he claimed more than he thought was realistic and that everyone else would do the same. Well, nobody else did that, so I've reduced Mauritania's reach. Especially , I detached the Guinea/Nigeria colony from the bulk of the inland empire.
I've broken up Portugal's empire by giving England the central Congo, giving Luxemburg the Angola basin, and giving Yemen and the post-colonial Mozambique (whatever it was) more of a hinterland. At the same time, I gave Portugal a wider beachhead: more of the Tanzanian/Kenyan coast and Delagoa Bay in the southeast. An empire that huge needs a more solid base.
I squeezed in the Venetian colony in Tripolitania and the Turkish settlements in Somalia. I'm not too attached to either, but I did it out of respect for their early claims.
France and Netherlands each got something small.
I kept those borders I made for Bornu because I think they look neat. Just consider them part of the Mauretanian empire.


I second that map. I would only give Lower France some land in the Guinea Coast (as it'll have colonies in America), but even without them it's very good, both aestetically and history-wise, and I support it as official Africa.

---

@ the name: remember that the continent, OTL, was named after the first name of the explorer, does not end with "-ia" and the name was not given to the first one to find the land, but to the first one who claimed to have found a new land.
So, here's my suggestion:
Diego Ferreira, sailing for the French, discovered the new lands in the New World, which he called "St. Elm Island". The expedition was somewhat secret, as the French were not sure wether it would be profitable or only waste of money, so their discovery was not acclaimed. A castillian sailor, who was in Ferreira's expedition, was bribed by castillian authorities and said that the expedition was a success, but they didn't know the real extention of the discovered lands. Interested in the possibility to overtake the French, Castille launched a second expedition (and the first for Castille), this time lead by the pisan navigator Bartolomeo Abrucci. After the journey, he brought great news about vast and prosperous lands, which he called in his writings "Zenobia", the name given by the natives to their land, or at least in Barotolomeo's description. The discovery was, then, made public and celebrated.
It's uncertain if Bartolomeo's travel was more sucesful than Ferreira's, but it was discovered later that the name, Zenobia, was given after Bartolomeo's lover, also called Zenobia. The French claimed to have discovered "Zenobia" before, and in fact they did, but as the first map and detailed exploration - be it true or false - about the new continent had this name, it ended up becoming popular.

It's very different and non-usual, but it's not ASBish.

[Lyly]

@ the name: remember that the continent, OTL, was named after the first name of the explorer, does not end with "-ia" and the name was not given to the first one to find the land, but to the first one who claimed to have found a new land.
So, here's my suggestion:
Diego Ferreira, sailing for the French, discovered the new lands in the New World, which he called "St. Elm Island". The expedition was somewhat secret, as the French were not sure wether it would be profitable or only waste of money, so their discovery was not acclaimed. A castillian sailor, who was in Ferreira's expedition, was bribed by castillian authorities and said that the expedition was a success, but they didn't know the real extention of the discovered lands. Interested in the possibility to overtake the French, Castille launched a second expedition (and the first for Castille), this time lead by the pisan navigator Bartolomeo Abrucci. After the journey, he brought great news about vast and prosperous lands, which he called in his writings "Zenobia", the name given by the natives to their land, or at least in Barotolomeo's description. The discovery was, then, made public and celebrated.
It's uncertain if Bartolomeo's travel was more sucesful than Ferreira's, but it was discovered later that the name, Zenobia, was given after Bartolomeo's lover, also called Zenobia. The French claimed to have discovered "Zenobia" before, and in fact they did, but as the first map and detailed exploration - be it true or false - about the new continent had this name, it ended up becoming popular.

It's very different and non-usual, but it's not ASBish.
That's cool. I like it.

[Turquoise Blue]

Hmmm... Zenobia, I like it!
I was thinking of a strong monarchy called the United Domains of Zenobia

[Crayhistory]

I like Zenobia, sounds interesting, and different from other names used before.

[Yelnoc]

I already sent this to Gandavien, but I think it's a somewhat saner version of the final map before the reboot. Some colors were too similar to be useful, so adjustments have been made. Whoever it was that made Venetian blue essentially the same as French blue... no good. And this is obviously not a final version. It's a sloppy sketch so we can discuss borders and regions instead of pixel thickness.





This is my thinking:

Trovador specifically said that he claimed more than he thought was realistic and that everyone else would do the same. Well, nobody else did that, so I've reduced Mauritania's reach. Especially , I detached the Guinea/Nigeria colony from the bulk of the inland empire.
I've broken up Portugal's empire by giving England the central Congo, giving Luxemburg the Angola basin, and giving Yemen and the post-colonial Mozambique (whatever it was) more of a hinterland. At the same time, I gave Portugal a wider beachhead: more of the Tanzanian/Kenyan coast and Delagoa Bay in the southeast. An empire that huge needs a more solid base.
I squeezed in the Venetian colony in Tripolitania and the Turkish settlements in Somalia. I'm not too attached to either, but I did it out of respect for their early claims.
France and Netherlands each got something small.
I kept those borders I made for Bornu because I think they look neat. Just consider them part of the Mauretanian empire.


Why does Portugal control the tip of Somalia and a random swathe of landon between a random Yemeni city and Ethiopia? It seems more likely that they would go for wealthy trading cities of Eritrea and take that land from Yemen. Personally, though, I think Portugal has more than enough without a presence in Eastern Africa. Remember, Portugal will likely be taking chunks out of the America at least at one point during their history.

[JJDXB]

I already sent this to Gandavien, but I think it's a somewhat saner version of the final map before the reboot. Some colors were too similar to be useful, so adjustments have been made. Whoever it was that made Venetian blue essentially the same as French blue... no good. And this is obviously not a final version. It's a sloppy sketch so we can discuss borders and regions instead of pixel thickness.





This is my thinking:

Trovador specifically said that he claimed more than he thought was realistic and that everyone else would do the same. Well, nobody else did that, so I've reduced Mauritania's reach. Especially , I detached the Guinea/Nigeria colony from the bulk of the inland empire.
I've broken up Portugal's empire by giving England the central Congo, giving Luxemburg the Angola basin, and giving Yemen and the post-colonial Mozambique (whatever it was) more of a hinterland. At the same time, I gave Portugal a wider beachhead: more of the Tanzanian/Kenyan coast and Delagoa Bay in the southeast. An empire that huge needs a more solid base.
I squeezed in the Venetian colony in Tripolitania and the Turkish settlements in Somalia. I'm not too attached to either, but I did it out of respect for their early claims.
France and Netherlands each got something small.
I kept those borders I made for Bornu because I think they look neat. Just consider them part of the Mauretanian empire.


Is that blue in the south east near OTL South Africa Occitanian?

[Crayhistory]

Why does Portugal control the tip of Somalia and a random swathe of landon between a random Yemeni city and Ethiopia? It seems more likely that they would go for wealthy trading cities of Eritrea and take that land from Yemen. Personally, though, I think Portugal has more than enough without a presence in Eastern Africa. Remember, Portugal will likely be taking chunks out of the America at least at one point during their history.

Those aren't Portuguese, at least they dont have the same color. You are referring to the two colonies separate from the rest of the Portuguese colonies, right?

[Yelnoc]

Those aren't Portuguese, at least they dont have the same color. You are referring to the two colonies separate from the rest of the Portuguese colonies, right?

Yes, the green blobs. What are they, then?

[Crayhistory]

Yes, the green blobs. What are they, then?

No idea. Turkish?

[Iserlohn]

Is that blue in the south east near OTL South Africa Occitanian?

Nope, that is the East African Free State, a Boer-like state of now independent Scots.

No idea. Turkish?

Yes, should be Turkish/Ottoman.

[Trovador]

@Zenobia: ha, I'm glad you like it! Certainly this will be unique for our scenario.

@Green blobs near Ethiopia: they're Ottoman - that's because it's written "Tu" near them.

@Blueish blob in south Africa: the western one is French, the eastern one is independent.

@Zenobia: should we start it today?

[Yelnoc]

@Zenobia: ha, I'm glad you like it! Certainly this will be unique for our scenario.

@Green blobs near Ethiopia: they're Ottoman - that's because it's written "Tu" near them.

@Blueish blob in south Africa: the western one is French, the eastern one is independent.

@Zenobia: should we start it today?

Why would the Ottomans have land in East Africa when the don't even control of the Red Sea?

[Turquoise Blue]

@Zenobia: should we start it today?
I agree, by the way dont you think we should have about 6 max in N. America, because it is such a cliche to have lots of small states there.

[JJDXB]

I suppose someone ought to combine the maps.

[False Dmitri]

Why would the Ottomans have land in East Africa when the don't even control of the Red Sea?

They were claimed early on by Turkey's "owner," Splatter 123. There's been discussion about removing them. But this is a compromise between the original claim and nothing.

I'm pretty much done for the day. If anyone wants to take a crack at cleaning up the Africa map, please be my guest.

[Knepah]

This is becoming exceptionally tedious.

[Turquoise Blue]

This is becoming exceptionally tedious.
I agree, the Zenobia one should be started soon.

[QuoProQuid]

The Ottoman territories in East Africa seem silly. I would suggest removing them. Sardinia's colour needs to be changed to reflect the new colour of their owner.

I agree, the Zenobia one should be started soon.

Yes, agreed. However, if I may make a suggestion: Let us start by showing the total amount of land each power had before the colonies went independent and then divide land from there. After that, we can change borders from possible wars the states might have had post independence. The Collectivist Republic of New Erie might have swiped a ton of land from Nova Roma or merged with Hy-Brazil.

Logically, Portugal should have the most followed by Castille or the UK and then France.

Do we have maps with rivers on them for North and South America. It would greatly improve the quality and speed of updates, I think.

[Turquoise Blue]

The Ottoman territories in East Africa seem silly. I would suggest removing them.



Yes, agreed. However, if I may make a suggestion: Let us start by showing the total amount of land each power had before the colonies went independent and then divide land from there.
That sounds unique!

[Yelnoc]

I agree with Quo Pro Quid; it's hard to see Ethiopia holding all of that land with its major coastal cities taken by foreign powers. I can see Yemen holding Eritrea but that's it.

EDIT: And that's a nice idea for the Americas.

[Trovador]

Yes, agreed. However, if I may make a suggestion: Let us start by showing the total amount of land each power had before the colonies went independent and then divide land from there. After that, we can change borders from possible wars the states might have had post independence. The Collectivist Republic of New Erie might have swiped a ton of land from Nova Roma or merged with Hy-Brazil.

Logically, Portugal should have the most followed by Castille or the UK and then France.

Do we have maps with rivers on them for North and South America. It would greatly improve the quality and speed of updates, I think.

I like the idea, it will have rather more plausible outcomes - and help us greatly after, to define the religious and ethnic maps.
(and yes, there are versions of these maps with rivers, we can use them).

I desagree, though, that Portugal should have the most - IMO they shouldn't have any. As they focused in Africa in Asia, they probably created an analogue Tortesillas treaty, giving them most of the lands in Asia and Africa, like they wanted IOTL - and they discovered only too late that there was something 'interesting' in America. Another factor could be that the gold and silver took some time to be discovered, delaying even more the Portuguese interest in the continent.

The Americas were probably colonized by the powers that hadn't access to the oriental riches in the beginning - Castille and France, mostly, followed by Mauretana and maybe Angland or Dano-Netherlands.

[Knepah]

Planning in advance like this takes away all the fun and unpredictability of a Map Continuation. Like I said, whether or not the claims are "ASB or logical" or whatever, you go along with them. You bend the history to the will of the map. Somehow, you make it happen. History doesn't always make sense.

[QuoProQuid]

I disagree, though, that Portugal should have the most - IMO they shouldn't have any. As they focused in Africa in Asia, they probably created an analogue Tortesillas treaty, giving them most of the lands in Asia and Africa, like they wanted IOTL - and they discovered only too late that there was something 'interesting' in America. Another factor could be that the gold and silver took some time to be discovered, delaying even more the Portuguese interest in the continent.

The Americas were probably colonized by the powers that hadn't access to the oriental riches in the beginning - Castille and France, mostly, followed by Mauretana and maybe Angland or Dano-Netherlands.


But didn't the UK control about a quarter of the world's total land mass, including land from every continent? For an island of only 229,848 km2, they managed to control a vast Empire. Having swaths of land in Asia and Africa did not retroactively prevent them from grabbing land in the Americas.

Maybe I was exaggerating when I said they should have the most land, but their claims would not be small by any means.

[False Dmitri]

Planning in advance like this takes away all the fun and unpredictability of a Map Continuation. Like I said, whether or not the claims are "ASB or logical" or whatever, you go along with them. You bend the history to the will of the map. Somehow, you make it happen. History doesn't always make sense.

This, definitely. A look at British, German, or Spanish territory c. 1900 does not make a terrible amount of sense. Neither do the borders of the USA. Let's just map it.

[False Dmitri]

It looks like I had more time than I thought. Here's Africa with its borders refined - I traced lots of rivers and watersheds and the like. All that remains is to thin out some of those borders to 1 px. [EDIT] The whole thing is done. Let me be the first to say: nkosi sikeleli Africa!

Consensus was clearly agains the Turkish colonies, so they're gone. I also tweaked Ethiopia's borders in rather arbitrary ways - they were just too convergent to OTL.

Several islands are still without claimants. The Venetian claims on the "reboot" map aren't shown. They are currently up for grabs and, as far as I am concerned, should be claimed by editing this map in the usual way. The list includes (clockwise from the right): the Seychelles, Mauritius, Tristan da Cunha, St. Helena, Ascension, Cape Verde, Madeira, the Azores, and Malta. That's nine lovely colonies (or microstates?) still available!

[False Dmitri]

And just for fun, a simplified one with labels.

[Iserlohn]

Okay, here is my proposal for the remaining islands:


Seychelles: Scotland-Norway
Mauritius (already claimed): Venice
Tristan da Cunha: Portugal
St. Helena: Mauretana
Ascension: Mauretana
Cape Verdes: Lower France
Madeira: Portugal
Azores: Castille
Malta: Sicily

[JJDXB]

Okay, here is my proposal for the remaining islands:

I approve :D

West Equatorial : Ixołe Speranze The Hope Islands
East Equatorial : Ixołe Trinità The Trinity Islands
IOTL Eastern Libya : Tripolitania As OTL
IOTL Eastern Nigeria : Isaveria From Isa Ber, the Songhai name for the Niger River
IOTL Gabon and Cameroon : Venezuoła Little Venice (i.e. IOTL Venezuela )

[Gandavien]

The Americas were probably colonized by the powers that hadn't access to the oriental riches in the beginning - Castille and France, mostly, followed by Mauretana and maybe Angland or Dano-Netherlands.This.

We'll call South America Zenobia, shall we? Maybe we should have another name for North America. I agree that South America should be Castilan and French former colonies, with a Mauretanan, English and Danish presence in the north.

[Turquoise Blue]

This.

We'll call South America Zenobia, shall we? Maybe we should have another name for North America. I agree that South America should be Castilan and French former colonies, with a Mauretanan, English and Danish presence in the north.
Morelia for the North?

[Trovador]

Okay, here is my proposal for the remaining islands:

I agree, specially because France, now, has a proper african base to reach Zenobia. (... and Mauretana shall rule South Atlantic!)

---


Behold, gentlemen, our creation: The Carta Magna Mundi Veteris*!

(*The great map of the Old World, if my latin is not that bad)

edit: oh, with Mauretanan St. Helena, Ascension and a large piece of African coast, I think it makes more sense to have their (ex-)colonies in South America.

And, well Zenobia Austral and Zenobia Boreal sound rather neat, as it's probable they would call all the lands they found in the west the same - maybe the italian guy was named Bartolomeo Morello, and one/some/many nations are named after him?
Or the French and Castillians called it Zenobia Boreal, however the Anglish , at first, thought they found a new land, and called it Morelia after, uhn, the explorer Francis Moore?

[Turquoise Blue]

Nice! One question, is Siberia part of Japan or just a puppet? the colours are the same...

[False Dmitri]

If nobody minds, I'd like to claim Malta as an independent state. I feel like when Krall created the Sicilian Emirate he left Malta out for a reason, and I would like to play around with different hybrid Maltese cultures in such a different kind of Mediterranean.

I agree 100% with the way the other islands are distributed. They all make sense for various reasons and it's clear that thought went into it.

[Turquoise Blue]

If nobody minds, I'd like to claim Malta as an independent state. I feel like when Krall created the Sicilian Emirate he left Malta out for a reason, and I would like to play around with different hybrid Maltese cultures in such a different kind of Mediterranean.

I agree 100% with the way the other islands are distributed. They all make sense for various reasons and it's clear that thought went into it.
I think the Ottomans have that...

[Trovador]

I think the Ottomans have that...

In the map, it's Sicilian, but I support an independent Malta, just for the sake of variety.

And my first try on a religious map of the Old World:

(I think we agreed that there was some sort of protestant reformation in the New World... I thought it could have become mildly popular in Africa do Sul too.)

[False Dmitri]

I think the Ottomans have that...

Do they? I'm happier to make it Ottoman rather than Sicilian. Map changed. And somewhat sneakily, I'm claiming the Chagos for the Luxemburg Empire... they're an age-of-steam kind of colony, and the Luxemburgs are I think became an active maritime power only recently. :p If nothing else, it will give ships a place to stop on the way to Dadra.

In the map, it's Sicilian, but I support an independent Malta, just for the sake of variety.

Meh, Ottoman is different, too.

And my first try on a religious map of the Old World:

(I think we agreed that there was some sort of protestant reformation in the New World... I thought it could have become mildly popular in Africa do Sul too.)

Brilliant! Maybe in the East African Free State then, too.