The Irish Revolution of 1798: A New Theatre

[Mumby]

This is my first TL here, so go easy on me. Basically, the French invasion of Ireland in 1798 succeeds. Ireland is freed, and things change from there.

Triumph of Ballinamuck

The victory at the previous battle of Castlebar had caused thousands of Irish patriots to flood to the revolutionary cause. Lord Cornwallis had an army of 26000, but their supply trains were continually harried by Franco-Irish guerrillas who stopped Cornwallis from making meaningful progress through the country. As well as this, more French reinforcements had arrived in the newly liberated province of Connaught.

Elsewhere, in Longford and Westmeath, another group of rebels began an insurgency and successfully repulsed an attacking British force. General
Humbert soon marched west, to bring these rebels into the fold.

It was while on the way to Westmeath, that the Franco-Irish and British armies clashed at Ballinamuck. Of roughly 5000 men on each side, the battle was close-run, but the expertise of the French soldiers was met by the ferocity of the Irishmen, and it ended in a decisive victory for the fledgling Irish Republic.

[Errnge]

I didn't know that the French attempted to free Ireland.

Interesting.

GAELO-PHILES UNITE!

[Sicarius]

Yes! I've wanted to see a timeline that goes from this POD forever. I hope the revolutionary Republic of Ireland is crazier than the French ever were.

[black angel]

Welcome to the second Siege of Derry, well maybe not Derry but I can see a number of Northern Cities holding out against the French/Irish, things would get UGLY.

[Mumby]

I want to stress this isn't going to be Hiberno-self abuse. I'm going to try and work out what a world with a successful Irish Rebellion of 1798 would look like.

[Grey Wolf]

You gotta have Wolfe Tone!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfe_Tone

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Mumby]

Wolfe Tone's Northern Army
While Connaught was defended and the mainstream army marched west to Dublin, a secondary force under the legendary Wolfe Tone undertook a deadly operation that is famous to this day. An army of French soldiers and Irish auxiliaries aimed to invade Donegal and from there, drive the British out of their heartland of Ulster entirely.
His army clashed with British forces, but most had been withdrawn to Dublin, where Viceroy Cornwallis hoped he would be able to annihilate the opposition with overwhelming force. Due to this, only meagre resistance was offered in Donegal, and Tone's 'Northern Army' established the Donegal Republic.
However, his invasion of Ulster in December quickly came up against extreme resistance from the Protestant population. At the Battle of Londonderry, his army soon came a cropper against tenacious resistance. He withdrew and took his army south into Fermagh and Tyrone where he won more support from the more Gaelic population. However, his losses in Derry meant by the end of 1798, his army would not go on the march for another three months.

[Last of the Stuarts]

Unfortunately I can see this getting very bloody very quickly.

The British had lost the America's less than 20 years before and were in a hightened fear state of Napoleon and French invasion. There is no way they would allow this to ride.

If Moore survived I can see him returning to England and being given a large force to retake the oldest English colony. I can also see the Scots getting involved with volenteer regiments given the closness between the Orange Orders on both sides of the Irish Sea.

In OTL Moore was known for his restraint in dealing with civilians, I can't see this happening now. I forsee a blood bath of innocents with every step the avenging army takes.

Catholic Ireland would be pulversised and the Scots would fill up the land, turning Ireland into a Protestant nation for once and all.

[XNM]

What would the system of government of the Irish Republic be like? Would there any inspiration coming from across the Atlantic? :D

[Last of the Stuarts]

What would the system of government of the Irish Republic be like? Would there any inspiration coming from across the Atlantic? :D

I wouldn't have thought so, much more likely either take the French model, or to mangle the parlimentary system. I think it would depend on how the Irish purge of English influence went and if it got as blood as the French became under Robespierre.

The more bloody the more likely to have an Irish Napoleon take power, I suspect Wolfe would fill the gap quite nicely.

[Mumby]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Orange Rising

The success of the Irish Patriots in the north was short lived. The Orange Order, and their cousins in Scotland were vehemently opposed to the Catholic Irishmen, and a volunteer Orange Army was raised. This army and the Northern Army clashed on a multitude of occasions in the north.
The bloodiest action during this time, was the battle of Tyrone. Tone tried to take this Ulster province and add it to his provisional republic of Donegal. The Orange Army met him on the field of battle and both sides lost thousands of men. Tone withdrew to Donegal and built forts to repulse continuous attacks by the Orangemen.

The March on Dublin

Further south, in the more established Republic of Connaught, one massive block stood in the way of freedom for Ireland. Viceroy Cornwallis had amassed a vast army of 35,000 men, regular British soldiers and volunteer Orangemen. Fearing another Charleston, he ensured Dublin was heavily fortified before marching against the enemy. General Humbert wanted to attack Dublin before the British began their march, but the French (who made up a large part of the Irish army) wanted a more measured approach. They proposed a march south, to cut Dublin completely off from the rest of Ireland.
While the military argued, a major turning point for the Irish occurred. Drawing inspiration from the American example, President John Moore offered the Hessian mercenaries land in the sparsely populated south in return for defecting to their side. As the Republic of Connaught was deep under the thumb of the irreligious United Irishmen, the Protestant Hessians agreed, and the southern section of the country was earmarked for Hessian settlement.

[EvolvedSaurian]

What you're forgetting here is that the United Irishmen were big among the Nonconformists, the Presbyterians and Baptists and Methodists who were also repressed by the dominant Anglicans. It was the UI rebellion that prompted London to cultivate support among Dissenters, removing restrictions on Protestants.

So, I'm not saying that Protestant non-Anglican support will be universal, but, well, the Orange Order was only founded in 1796...

[Mumby]

What you're forgetting here is that the United Irishmen were big among the Nonconformists, the Presbyterians and Baptists and Methodists who were also repressed by the dominant Anglicans. It was the UI rebellion that prompted London to cultivate support among Dissenters, removing restrictions on Protestants.

So, I'm not saying that Protestant non-Anglican support will be universal, but, well, the Orange Order was only founded in 1796...

Thats precisely how the Republic of Connaught has been able to win over the Hessians. They are more UI, less of Catholicism in the Irish identity. The Donegal Republic is a lot more reliant on grass-roots Catholic support which is why they and the Orangemen fight each other. The British tolerate the Orangists and little else.

[EvolvedSaurian]

Thats precisely how the Republic of Connaught has been able to win over the Hessians. They are more UI, less of Catholicism in the Irish identity. The Donegal Republic is a lot more reliant on grass-roots Catholic support which is why they and the Orangemen fight each other. The British tolerate the Orangists and little else.

Except the British really didn't tolerate the Orange Order until after Wolfe Tone's execution. I mean, damn, the United Irishmen were formed by Belfast Presbyterians.

[Grimm Reaper]

Nor did the British have Hessian mercenaries in Ireland and how are the French able to keep sending reinforcements through the Royal Navy?

The outcome of this is that the RN isolates Ireland from any further French reinforcements and the British, undoubtedly quite brutally, destroy any resistance in Ireland.

[Mumby]

Except the British really didn't tolerate the Orange Order until after Wolfe Tone's execution. I mean, damn, the United Irishmen were formed by Belfast Presbyterians.

The only reason that the British tolerate the Orange Army is because they are so vehemently opposed to the Catholic Donegalites, and their success in beating them. If they fail to stand against them, the tenuous alliance will fall apart.

The Hinterland

Even with the Hessian Purchase, a vast swathe of land stretched across the country which was ruled by nobody. This Hinterland and the 'Hintermen' who lived there was a bane to both the British and Connaughtians. The Hessian soldiers were still in the process of bringing their families to the new land, already dubbed 'New Hesse'. This influx of soldiers were not yet ready to destroy the violent warlike Hintermen. Help came from another source.

[Grimm Reaper]

The Hessians can not bring in their families through the Royal Navy.

No evidence has been provided that the British had Hessians in Ireland or would need to introduce same.

Neither is there any basis to imagine Hessians on a scale sufficient to from an actual quasi-nation. During the ARW, farther from home and for a longer period involving a much larger number of German mercenaries, the number of deserters would not have come close to the manpower required for a 'New Hesse'.

[Mumby]

The Reinforcements

France no longer had the ability, nor the compulsion to send troops to Ireland. The republics argued with one another, the Hessian mercenaries were thin on the ground and unable in some cases to get to Ireland, and the Royal Navy was strengthening its grip on the coast of Ireland. It looked grim for the Patriots.

But aid came from an unexpected source. In Egypt, the French naval forces had conclusively defeated a British fleet at the Battle of the Nile. Napoleon's armies were going from strength to strength, and a vital link to British India was threatened. British ships were diverted from the lesser theatre of Ireland to the more pressing matter of French forces in the east.

This allowed General Humbert to make contact with volunteers on the continent. He was able to raise a battalion of Breton volunteers from France, and gain cash aid from elements of Directory government.

The Orange Debacle

The British also lost a vital ally in Ireland in the Orange Order. The Orange Army had held back Wolfe Tone admirably, but he performed a skillful manoeuvre and forced them out of Derry. The British removed their support from the radical Order. The leaders of the Army were told their services were no longer required. The Orangists turned against the British and made an armistice with Tone, joining the Irish Revolution, though in a Calvinist context. The Republic of Ulster was founded, and all of a sudden British control of Ireland looked a lot less certain.

[Mumby]

And heres a map as of mid-1799

[Mumby]

Home Rebellion

The Societies of United Englishmen and Scotsmen looked in eager anticipation at the events in Ireland. The Orange Order in Scotland also looked to aid its brethren in Ireland through instigating war.

Dissatisfaction at the dictatorial behaviour of the government lead to widespread protests, and ultimately Britain's withdrawal from the coalition to deal with its internal issues. Napoleon completed his campaign, freeing Egypt from the Ottomans and establishing a new French colony, as British ships left the Mediterranean.

The Great Roll-Back

Viceroy Cornwallis made a desperate bid to retain Britain's empire in Ireland. He marched out his army and met General Humbert on the field of battle. Cornwallis had a slight numerical superiorty, but his troops were tired, their supply trains had been harassed, and Humbert was expecting reinforcements from Wolf Tone, who had promised to go south and fight Cornwallis.

Wolfe Tone didn't turn up, but it wasn't necessary. The Irish soldiers in Cornwallis' army saw which way the wind was blowing and simply upped and left, to join Humbert. With his numerical superiority gone, and discontent sweeping the camp, Cornwallis struck his colours without a shot being fired. British Ireland was surrendered and Cornwallis with his army returned to Britain. Where he was sorely needed...

[Mumby]

And here's a map

[Grimm Reaper]

There was no prospect of the French Navy defeating the RN at the Nile.

No chance of the territories of the Ottoman Empire being considered a higher priority than Ireland.

No 'internal issues' that could convince any plausible British administration to abandon efforts against France.

Napoleon had neither the intent nor the ability to establish Egypt as a French colony. Anything less than bringing the Ottoman Empire to terms meant the French effort was doomed to defeat.

Nor would the Protestant extremists joining forces with the Catholics under any circumstances.

The constant harassment of British supply lines is nonsense...



Mumphy, to be blunt, your first timeline went way into ASB territory even without your clinging to a ridiculous Hessian role with absolutely no basis in reality.

[Mumby]

There was no prospect of the French Navy defeating the RN at the Nile.

No chance of the territories of the Ottoman Empire being considered a higher priority than Ireland.

No 'internal issues' that could convince any plausible British administration to abandon efforts against France.

Napoleon had neither the intent nor the ability to establish Egypt as a French colony. Anything less than bringing the Ottoman Empire to terms meant the French effort was doomed to defeat.

Nor would the Protestant extremists joining forces with the Catholics under any circumstances.

The constant harassment of British supply lines is nonsense...



Mumphy, to be blunt, your first timeline went way into ASB territory even without your clinging to a ridiculous Hessian role with absolutely no basis in reality.

Well, this is meant to be entertainment, but I will deal with your issues each at a time.

The Hessian thing is ASB, but I simply thought it would be pretty cool.

There was a definite prospect of the French defeating the British at the Nile. If the French hadn't chained their ships together, they would have been more than ready to face a British attack. Remember that the French are at the dock, where there will undoubtedly be cannon. All it takes is the battle occurring during the day, and the battle could have been a French victory.

It isn't the territories of the Ottomans per se the British are worried about. French success in Egypt and against the Ottomans is a definite threat to Britain's possessions in India. And we would go through hell or high water to hold onto India, whereas in Ireland we have less to lose.

So, serious outbreaks of violent action in Britain, no matter how bad, would not have caused Britain to back-down even slightly in France through sheer bloody mindedness? Now that is ASB. But the British will probably just play a smaller role.

Napoleon in OTL won many battles in Egypt, but the naval battles cut off support from home. He worked to make the lives of the Egyptians easier and if he had focussed a little less on uncovering the Pyramids, and more on war, he could have won.

You forget that in the age of revolutions, many people we would consider odd allied with one another to fight a common oppressor. The Orangists and the Catholics have allied purely to push out the British. The UI was more secular. In my next update, the fragile alliance in the north will fall apart.

Last of all, my name is Mumby. Not Mumphy.

[Grimm Reaper]

Yet you assign a portion of Irish territory and Irish miltiary forces to the utterly implausible involvment of the Hessians.


There was no prospect of a French naval victory at the Nile, nor did the French fleet enjoy a victory on such a scale during the Napoleonic Wars, against the UK. Basically you would like such a victory in your thread but can offer no basis for it, much like the involvment of the Hessians.

There is no evidence that there cannon on the docks, least of all in sufficient number to make a difference, no evidence that the French fleet was ready to do what no such fleet did before or since in a quarter century of war and no evidence that the RN would have not used the plan of attack which gave the RN a crushing victory. Nor did the battle start at night.


The idea that a French allied Ireland would be less alarming to the British than a French toehold in Egypt vast distances from India is absurd.


The alliance between the Catholics and the Protestants(loyalists) would not fall apart later, it would not exist in the first place.

[Grimm Reaper]

At the Battle of the Nile the French were in a very poor position.

Their commanding admiral had made several major errors in positioning the fleet as the British could A) deploy their ships in force by moving between shoal water and the first French ship to concentrate fire on one French ship at a time and B) break the French line due to the distance between the French ships.

There were no chains holding the French ships together and, ironically, had they all used cables per their orders the British might have been unable to break the French line.

The deployment of the French fleet also rendered it impossible for the rear of the fleet to support the van.

Lastly Napoleon had stripped the fleet of supplies nor did he replace them such that at times as much as one third of the French sailors were away trying to provide food and water for the fleet. As a result the French commander, Admiral Brueys, reported to the French Minister of Marine "Our crews are weak, both in number and quality. Our rigging, in general, out of repair, and I am sure it requires no little courage to undertake the management of a fleet furnished with such tools."

By no stretch of the imagination can this be considered to have been a close battle.

[Mumby]

Then help me make it better. If I tell you what my objectives for this TL are for now, will that make it easier to help me?



I want Ireland to be freed, but through a number of avenues.
I then want the revolution to spread to Britain, creating a radical democratic republic.
I want the United States to be somehow in a position in the ACW for the free states to declare independence from the USA.
I want Spain to be more important in the Americas.
I want a slower or less extensive colonisation of Africa.

After that, I'm less sure.