Would a suprise 1939 "Sea Lion" Nazi invasion of Britian have worked

[Chris3035]

Britian was a thorn in Hitlers side the entire war, down but never out and at one point stood alone against the Nazis. Any idea of an invasion of Britian was suicide after the fall of Poland and expecially after France. A massive sneak attack in 1939 before the Allies even declared war on Germany could however been a quick and easy Nazi victory, not only freeing up divisions to fight on other fronts, but with possibly British Fascist Oswalt Mosely or Edward VIII leading a puppet government...maybe the British Empire helps the Nazi fight the Soviets.

Thoughts? Possible?
Sorry about the Sea Lion thread

[Elfwine]

No.

Just no.

Seriously.

[Nassirisimo]

Agreed. Even if the initial surprise was successful, the Royal navy would soon cut off all supply lines and any initial German landing would have been defeated. Another one to add to the list of Sealion threads then?

[Cook]

In 1939 the enemy Germany needed to defeat was France. Britain was an inconsequential with only six regular divisions.

[PhilKearny]

How Germany invade England by sea? The Kreigsmarine was about what, a tenth the strength of the Royal Navy. The Germans had insufficient shipping. Further, in 1939 Germany has no direct access to the North Sea, let alone the Channel. The invasion fleet would have to travel a long, long way. There would be no way to provide air cover because of the distances. There are numerous other issues. In all areas, a 1939 would be even more impossible than the 1940 version.

[daddydaycare]

To be fair, Germany greatly enhanced the capabilities of their sea lions in their various experiments in the 30s.

So the UK's dolphin defense force could have been caught unaware.

[Ariosto]

The only way this is possible is in Hearts of Iron, where the English Army is run by imbeciles, as is the Royal Navy.

[IchBinDieKaiser]

I'll direct you to the Glossary (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=180901) of Sea Lion Threads.

[ImmortalImpi]

The only way this is possible is in Hearts of Iron, where the English Army is run by imbeciles, as is the Royal Navy.

You could have the British navy and army having a vacation in India at the time.

[Beedok]

Britian was a thorn in Hitlers side the entire war, down but never out and at one point stood alone against the Nazis. Any idea of an invasion of Britian was suicide after the fall of Poland and expecially after France. A massive sneak attack in 1939 before the Allies even declared war on Germany could however been a quick and easy Nazi victory, not only freeing up divisions to fight on other fronts, but with possibly British Fascist Oswalt Mosely or Edward VIII leading a puppet government...maybe the British Empire helps the Nazi fight the Soviets.

Thoughts? Possible?
Sorry about the Sea Lion thread

Wait. . . you know to apologise, but do it anyway? :confused:

[ScorchedLight]

What if Hitler invaded England in 1933? NOW we're talking about surprise.

[pompejus]

Maybe if they build a giant wooden horse filled with German soldiers and leave it at the beach for the British to find.

[Roslin's Wig]

OPERASHION SEALIUN, FTW!

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Sea-Lion-Attacks-on-Humans-2.jpg

[Atlantic Friend]

Britain was a thorn in Hitlers side the entire war, down but never out and at one point stood alone against the Nazis.

Any idea of an invasion of Britian was suicide after the fall of Poland and expecially after France.

Aren't you mixing things up? A German invasion of Britain had no chance of ever happening before the fall of France - to invade Britain within combat range of the Luftwaffe fighters you have to do it through the Channel. Trying to reach Ramsgate from Kiel and Wilhelmshafen, with no friendly air cover, now that is suicide.

A massive sneak attack in 1939 before the Allies even declared war on Germany could however been a quick and easy Nazi victory, not only freeing up divisions to fight on other fronts, but with possibly British Fascist Oswalt Mosely or Edward VIII leading a puppet government...maybe the British Empire helps the Nazi fight the Soviets.

A sneak attack sounds very implausible to me. First, you have to gather the troops transports (freighters, barges, liners) in friendly ports and embark the invasion force. You also have to round up the warships whose task will be to protect the transports and support the invasion. Such a move is unlikely to evade detection in its early stages, particularly since in 1939 there aren't too many ports in the North Sea the German Kriegsmarine can use.

[ThomasTheviking]

They might land a couple of battalions hidden on commerciel freighters, but then it would be a total suicide mission.

No resupply. No reinforcements. No air cover (Since the German planes have to fly from Germany), no German Navy...nothing but dead, wounded and surrendering Germans.

[Grey Wolf]

Let's see - if no war has been declared then presumably Germany has not mobilised (since that would be something of a give-away). Presumably also this would be in August, after the Nazi-Soviet Pact but before the initial moves against Poland. In theory, one supposes, the generals could hide their heads in the sand and let the political leadership order something crazy.

Now, barges are not actually necessary - seriously, did Japan go around towing barges across the Pacific? You can do it from transports and freighters, and presumably you can gather some of these without tipping off British intelligence as to what exactly you are up to...

The difficult bit comes when you sail this convoy under naval escort (and the longer-ranged Luftwaffe aircraft) out of the Bight and towards the Channel. Maybe they give out that they are going to Spain, but Britain is not going to believe them. Maybe they say nothing which looks awfully suspicious because Britain is not going to fail to notice this little armada coming their way...

And, er, that's it for the best case scenario!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Julius Vogel]

If we avoid all the obvious points, does anyone care to speculate just what sized force (and composition) such a sneak attack would need, in order to achieve a knockout blow?

What would a knock out blow be? Pulling a Speight and seizing the House of Commons? Seizing the key ports? Militarily defeating the Home Army?

[Grey Wolf]

If we avoid all the obvious points, does anyone care to speculate just what sized force (and composition) such a sneak attack would need, in order to achieve a knockout blow?

What would a knock out blow be? Pulling a Speight and seizing the House of Commons? Seizing the key ports? Militarily defeating the Home Army?

IMHO it has to achieve everything in one go because its supply lines are going to be cut off almost immediately and even if we assume Hitler and co browbeat the generals, Raeder is a senior Nazi (often overlooked) and will make him aware of that.

I think Hitler must have been reading about the Anglo-Dutch Wars, will try for a landing at Tilbury or some such, a fast advance on London and to wipe out the government, the royal family, the ministries themselves and the army HQ.

I can't see any other plan making sense, even in an incredible scenario

Maybe some of the freighters have a few helicopters on board, VSTOL aircraft such as Arado trainers, Fiesler Storchs, some seaplanes etc so some semblance of air cover could be provided for a short while until they all get shot down by the RAF

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Astrodragon]

http://ashtoreth.com/pics/godzilla-facepalm.jpg
Because the big G just says it so much better...

[Julius Vogel]

IMHO it has to achieve everything in one go because its supply lines are going to be cut off almost immediately and even if we assume Hitler and co browbeat the generals, Raeder is a senior Nazi (often overlooked) and will make him aware of that.

I think Hitler must have been reading about the Anglo-Dutch Wars, will try for a landing at Tilbury or some such, a fast advance on London and to wipe out the government, the royal family, the ministries themselves and the army HQ.

I can't see any other plan making sense, even in an incredible scenario

Maybe some of the freighters have a few helicopters on board, VSTOL aircraft such as Arado trainers, Fiesler Storchs, some seaplanes etc so some semblance of air cover could be provided for a short while until they all get shot down by the RAF

Best Regards
Grey Wolf


Are you familiar with the George Speight led seizure of the Fijiian Parliament? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_coup_of_2000). It would be interesting to see what the outcome of someone trying that on a larger, more establish democracy/state

[Derek Pullem]

Are you familiar with the George Speight led seizure of the Fijiian Parliament? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_coup_of_2000). It would be interesting to see what the outcome of someone trying that on a larger, more establish democracy/state

Well for that example to work there would need to be a fundamental racial and/or socio-economic conflict ongoing in the UK at the time and the putsch would need to be led by British not German paratroopers.

But apart from that..........

[Grey Wolf]

Are you familiar with the George Speight led seizure of the Fijiian Parliament? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_coup_of_2000). It would be interesting to see what the outcome of someone trying that on a larger, more establish democracy/state

Actually yes because it gave me one of my most memorable dream experiences, being shot dead by Fijian nationalists outside a jewellers, then rewinding the dream so that I stepped aside out of the way the next time

I'll read the article now, lol

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

EDIT - or maybe the dream came from the 1987 coup cos that has more familiar names! Memory is a cheese from Lucerne

[Cockroach]

A massive sneak attack in 1939 before the Allies even declared war on Germany could however been a quick and easy Nazi victory, not only freeing up divisions to fight on other fronts, but with possibly British Fascist Oswalt Mosely or Edward VIII leading a puppet government...maybe the British Empire helps the Nazi fight the Soviets.

Thoughts? Possible?
Sorry about the Sea Lion thread
Okay... let's be very charitable and assume the idea of a landing comes out of the blue and the Home Fleet isn't out ready to send the entire German fleet to the seafloor...

Still, this is happening during a period of high tensions: the British army isn't just going to be sitting round twaddling it's thumbs: it'll be getting geared up for what looks like an oncoming war. And most of the 300,000+ strong force that would become the BEF would still be at home. Coast defense batteries will also likely be at an elevated state of alert.

The first wave of the German landing itself will be limited in scale and short on armour and artillery (see early phases of the Norwegian campaign and projections for the early stage of Seelowe) and any second wave will run into the Royal Navy. The operation will also be at the extreme range of German medium bombers and transport (limiting the effectiveness of both and preventing extensive use of paratroopers) and well beyond Bf-109 and Ju-87 range... and unlike Norway there's a few dozen squadrons of Spits and Hurricanes to deal with, not one squadron of Gladiators.

In short, it's suicidal. That said, damage inflicted during the landing, the moral effect and a potential British desire to hold back forces incase of another raid will likely hamper British operations on the continent (more rapid collapse of France when Hitler pushes west?).

More realistically, the poms pick up on the build up of German shipping ready for the landing and are ready when the Germans put to sea. In which case things end very badly for the Germans.

[Dr. Luny]

A smaller operation with limited objectives might be possible, if the limeys don't find out about it through their intelligence services. A suicide mission by a few crack batallions might be able to sneak in and seize some vital installations and destroy some vital equiptment before the British can muster a sufficient force to clean them up. The odds of pulling off such an operation are pretty low, but they might be able to destroy a significant amount of the Royal Navy's support structure. It's hard to imagine them inflicting any damage that couldn't be repaired before the war in the west got started the next spring, but it might make Weserubung work out a bit better for the Kriegsmarine, that is, if they haven't thrown away their best paratroopers etc. on a suicide mission against Britain.

The obvious problem to this is political. If the UK is at war with Germany, there's absolutely no hope of a sucessful attack, this means it has to happen before Poland, but before the attack on Poland, it was uncertain whether or not the British would declare war, and how enthusiastic they'd be about prosecuting it. A direct surprise attack would ruin any possibility of a peaceful settlement with Britian, which was something Hitler was quite keen on early in the war.

Had Hitler ordered such an attack, he would have almost certainly met serious resistance within the military. Prior to the victory over France, he was not in such a secure political position that he could order something so major without military support.

[Julius Vogel]

Well for that example to work there would need to be a fundamental racial and/or socio-economic conflict ongoing in the UK at the time and the putsch would need to be led by British not German paratroopers.

But apart from that..........


I should have clarified that I was referring to the specific act of seizing the parliament hold it hostage, in pursuit of particular aims, as opposed to say the specific political issues of the time, or the wider ethnic issues that Fiji had/has.

[Derek Pullem]

I should have clarified that I was referring to the specific act of seizing the parliament hold it hostage, in pursuit of particular aims, as opposed to say the specific political issues of the time, or the wider ethnic issues that Fiji had/has.

Agreed but if it were foreign nationals with no indigenous support for their actions then I suspect it would end even faster than Speight's inglorious attempt at direct action

[Lord Dalek]

Damnit, if the Duke of Windsor comes into power, you could have a Sealion in some ways. You AH folk, never thought of that did you? :cool: :cool: :D :D

[Derek Pullem]

Damnit, if the Duke of Windsor comes into power, you could have a Sealion in some ways. You AH folk, never thought of that did you? :cool: :cool: :D :D
If he was in power he wouldn't be the Duke of Windsor;)

If there was a huge political unrest at George VI accession to the throne in the abdication crisis which led to a credible political faction opposing the monarchy (ASB........) then you might have a justification for a coup - but it is just not going to happen, Edward VIII was too much of a coward.

And it wouldn't be a Sealion it would be a Glorious Revolution Mk 2 (well, not so glorious, more evil but we'll pass on that).

[Astrodragon]

A smaller operation with limited objectives might be possible, if the limeys don't find out about it through their intelligence services. A suicide mission by a few crack batallions might be able to sneak in and seize some vital installations and destroy some vital equiptment before the British can muster a sufficient force to clean them up. The odds of pulling off such an operation are pretty low, but they might be able to destroy a significant amount of the Royal Navy's support structure. It's hard to imagine them inflicting any damage that couldn't be repaired before the war in the west got started the next spring, but it might make Weserubung work out a bit better for the Kriegsmarine, that is, if they haven't thrown away their best paratroopers etc. on a suicide mission against Britain.

The obvious problem to this is political. If the UK is at war with Germany, there's absolutely no hope of a sucessful attack, this means it has to happen before Poland, but before the attack on Poland, it was uncertain whether or not the British would declare war, and how enthusiastic they'd be about prosecuting it. A direct surprise attack would ruin any possibility of a peaceful settlement with Britian, which was something Hitler was quite keen on early in the war.

Had Hitler ordered such an attack, he would have almost certainly met serious resistance within the military. Prior to the victory over France, he was not in such a secure political position that he could order something so major without military support.

Aarg, what is it this week with threads, did someone put something in the global water supply...??

A few battallions trying to seriously degrade the RN infrastructure is in for a world of hurt. In this time period, RN personel (hint: there are a LOT of these sitting around the naval bases) are trained in arms, and the gunnery branch are rather well trained in arms. There are also Royal Marines based on the ships there. Plus the little problem with attacking ships and a naval base in the first place. Ships ALWAYS have guards at the top of the gangways - even in a home port. Granted they may not be armed under peacetime conditions, but its terribly difficult to attack up a gangplank... You do realise that even in peacetime, with no sign of threat, there are always guards and standing patrols. As in always, and all over the place. At this time, the IRA were playing up again so in any case the British are well aware of the need for security of important bases.

Plus, just how are these light forces (I almost said farces, but...:) going to land? By ship? Thats hardly inconspicuous or easy. By boat? in which case just how are the carrying the CONSIDERABLE amount of munitions required to do anything much more than scratch a naval base. When the British took out ONE French dock in 1942 they used a destroyer stuffed full of HE to do it with. You arent carrying that in in a motor boat....

[quixo]

Impossible. France and Poland combined had, on general terms, an equivalent -or even better- force to that of Germany. If Britian was to be attacked (even though the Royal Navy could destroy the Kriegsmarine ten times over), France and Poland could attack German mainland and beat the crap out of the Wehrmacht.

[Chris3035]

In 1939 in an attempt to cripple the Royal Navy and RAF, the battle of britian and the battle of the atlantic start early with a suprise attack.

[Beedok]

I have one question, if the plan was to use Rhine barges, don't they have to hold the mouth of the Rhine (Belgium and the Netherlands) to get the barges out anywat?

And a Pearl Harbour wouldn't work as Scapa Flow is rather far away.

[Devolved]

Chamberlain would scarcely have been able to keep the smile off his face. All moral dilemmas taken care of plus a victory with the cream of the German army in a POW camp in a few weeks.

[Cockroach]

In 1939 in an attempt to cripple the Royal Navy and RAF, the battle of britian and the battle of the atlantic start early with a suprise attack.
A premature Battle of Britain isn't going to work: in OTL flying from bases in France put most objectives at the limit of Bf-109E escort range, in this scenario you'll be flying missions from Germany, well beyond Bf-109E escort range... which means you're limited to Bf-110s as escorts, which is generally not a good idea (typically less manouverable than single-engined types... therefore tend to loose out in dogfights which in turn mean the bomber are then unescorted and so target practise).

An early Battle of the Atlantic is also not workable... At the start of the war the Germans only had a handful of long-ranged U-Boats. Without the use of French ports it'll thus be difficult to keep many U-Boat out to intercept convoys...

[Tenhigh]

I'd suggest mass tourism as the answer. Ship these thousands of German soldiers to England, claiming that they're going on a "walking tour" of London. By the time people realize that they're not just rude tourists, Germany will be in control of Parliament! It's foolproof I say! :D:p

[Major Major]

Are you familiar with the George Speight led seizure of the Fijiian Parliament? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_coup_of_2000). It would be interesting to see what the outcome of someone trying that on a larger, more establish democracy/state

That sounds like Peter van Greenaway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Van_Greenaway

In The Man Who Held the Queen to Ransom and Sent Parliament Packing (1969) he has a disgruntled British Army captain gather up a few odds and sods, with which he motors into London, drives Parliament out of Westminster, claps the Royal Family in the Tower, and proceeds to restructure Britain into a more democratic, fairer, more just, more progressive state. You see, everyone obeys his orders because all he has to say is "you can be replaced".

Then, in Take the War to Washington (1974) a disgruntled army punishment unit mutinies, takes over an aircraft carrier, sails from Vietnam to the East Coast, and captures Washington, to punish the real war-makers.


And you thought Unspeakable Sea Mammal threads were bad, these got professionally published and favorably reviewed!