Monica's baby, the ruin of Clinton - a TL

[Snowstalker]

Perot got almost 2 million more votes than OTL. Still no where as good as his 92 performance, but maybe good enough to keep the Reform party a going concern TTL.

Fact of the matter is the Congress often does swing in popular relation to the President. Look at the massive Dem pickup OTL in 2006, or 94's Republican Revolution.



Oh and a random pet peeve of mine... just why does everyone on this site seem to use reverse red/blue colors for the electoral college maps. Is it just because that electoral college calculator website does?

It's because the site (uselectionatlas.org) uses the reverse colors, based on the usual coloration of left-wing (red) and right-wing (blue) parties.

[lothaw]

It's because the site (uselectionatlas.org) uses the reverse colors, based on the usual coloration of left-wing (red) and right-wing (blue) parties.

Well red being the color of the left would make a certain amount of sense historically and internationally. Guess it's just another example of good old American stubborness. :p

[Tyg]

What would the fallout look like in state elections for governors and the legislatures? Or locally, for that matter? The down-ticket effects must be pretty brutal in marginal districts if that many Democrats are staying at home. Must really hurt in competitive suburbs.

[usertron2020]

What would the fallout look like in state elections for governors and the legislatures? Or locally, for that matter? The down-ticket effects must be pretty brutal in marginal districts if that many Democrats are staying at home. Must really hurt in competitive suburbs.

Local elections TEND not to run in Presidential Elections, but rather odd-numbered years.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Ouch. So Bill is finished. :eek:

Very intriguing updates, Blair.

[Orville_third]

Well, let's see how America goes. Hopefully we'll get out of Iraq. If not...can someone PLEASE bring up Hussein Kamil?

[usertron2020]

Well, let's see how America goes. Hopefully we'll get out of Iraq. If not...can someone PLEASE bring up Hussein Kamil?

Um, this is 1996. Not 2003. Iraq was Bush's obsession, not the Republican Party's.

[mrmandias]

Yes, but there's the ATL Carville quote where he refers to IEDs.

Um, this is 1996. Not 2003. Iraq was Bush's obsession, not the Republican Party's.

[joea64]

Yes, but there's the ATL Carville quote where he refers to IEDs.

The war involving IED's doesn't necessarily have to be in Iraq at all. I think IED's are used in Afghanistan as well, to name just one place.

As for Iraq itself, I don't think Gramm will actually play it very much differently from Clinton: i.e., keeping the sanctions regime on and trying to tighten it up, and hitting targets every so often when Saddam gets particularly recalcitrant. A more interesting question will be what happens when Kosovo finally blows up. Will a Republican administration be more or less willing to use force against the Serbs in Kosovo than Clinton was?

Al Qaeda first came to widespread public notice during the late 1990's with the Kenya and Tanzania embassy bombings (that's why we hit AQ base camps in Afghanistan with cruise missiles and hit that factory in Sudan that was supposedly producing chemical weapons) and the attack on USS Cole in 2000. Not sure whether those particular actions will still take place, but I daresay bin Laden and his mob will be getting increasingly active. The real question is whether the Gramm Administration will react to them in any greatly different degree than the Clinton Administration.

How far do you intend to continue this timeline overall?

[BlairWitch749]

The war involving IED's doesn't necessarily have to be in Iraq at all. I think IED's are used in Afghanistan as well, to name just one place.

As for Iraq itself, I don't think Gramm will actually play it very much differently from Clinton: i.e., keeping the sanctions regime on and trying to tighten it up, and hitting targets every so often when Saddam gets particularly recalcitrant. A more interesting question will be what happens when Kosovo finally blows up. Will a Republican administration be more or less willing to use force against the Serbs in Kosovo than Clinton was?

Al Qaeda first came to widespread public notice during the late 1990's with the Kenya and Tanzania embassy bombings (that's why we hit AQ base camps in Afghanistan with cruise missiles and hit that factory in Sudan that was supposedly producing chemical weapons) and the attack on USS Cole in 2000. Not sure whether those particular actions will still take place, but I daresay bin Laden and his mob will be getting increasingly active. The real question is whether the Gramm Administration will react to them in any greatly different degree than the Clinton Administration.

How far do you intend to continue this timeline overall?


The election of 1996 was as far as I mapped it... so there might be a considerable layover in pushing it forward; but if there is interest I have some thoughts in outlining it to at least 2000

[TheSevenLeggedFallyDowner]

The election of 1996 was as far as I mapped it... so there might be a considerable layover in pushing it forward; but if there is interest I have some thoughts in outlining it to at least 2000

I know I haven't posted in the thread yet, but I've been following it quite closely and would love to see it continued.

[historybuff]

Keep it up. I'd like to see who Graham picks for his cabinet.

[Wendell]

Well red being the color of the left would make a certain amount of sense historically and internationally. Guess it's just another example of good old American stubborness. :p

Or more like, media idiocy if I recall correctly. I think the trend emerged during the Clinton years to apply the nonsensical coloration that has been so engrained into American minds lately.

Keep it up. I'd like to see who Graham picks for his cabinet.

I agree. Will there be a disproportionate number of Texans, but more significantly, will there be any holdovers from the Clinton administration?

[Tony]

Oh great, finally the election results!!
The defeat of John Kerry would create interesting butterflies:D
Cannot wait to see where the Gramm presidency would go (hopefully not even crazier deregulation:p) and his cabinet picks!!

[Gridley]

I, too, would like to see this thread continued.

[NoOneFamous]

I, too, would like to see this thread continued.

Amen to that. I do have a problem with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania going GOP:mad:

[BlairWitch749]

Amen to that. I do have a problem with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania going GOP:mad:

And you have 2 republican senators and a republican governor :D

[lothaw]

At first this TL disapointed me solely because it mean you wouldn't be working on Mainstein in Africa, but I've greatly enjoyed it. I say keep it up if you'd like! :D

[BlairWitch749]

thank you for the support gents... RB and I have discussed an outline of some potential Gramm-Abraham cabinet appointments; if anyone has any special suggestions I'd like to hear them since I am going to start drafting his transition and inauguration

[historybuff]

Nothing's coming to mind for Secretary of State, but I'm leaning toward either Colin Powell or Brent Scowcroft for Secretary of Defence.

[thekingsguard]

I gotta admit, I'm actually looking forward more to seeing how Gramm and the Republican supermajority run the nation than I was to see them take down Clinton! Keep it up man!

[BlairWitch749]

No excessive celebration (Chapter 30) “hit more than a home run.” - Spencer Abraham

January 20th 1997 Washington DC (Victor Lewinsky is 18 weeks old)

The period between the decisive Republican victory in November and Phil Gramm's innaguration was a whirlwind. The media was stunned by the magnitude of Clinton's fall and several very interesting narratives to try and spin the story emerged

1. Fashioned by Fox News, the WSJ editorial board and talk radio tried to claim Clinton was a so-so president who had the benefit of some economic tail winds and responsible congress, and that his 92 victory was a function of Perot as opposed to any dent in the armor of a sustained republican majority... they downplayed the role of Linda Tripp, Matt Drudge and the Lewinsky scandal and tried to make that case that Phil Gramm could have won on his own merits
2. Fashioned by members of Clinton's staff and the New York Times; their narrative ran that Clinton had been a successful president and that his personal failings had directly pulled the plug on his campaign both by whipping up the religious right and by pissing off many socially moderate democrats who stayed home which had hugely negative down ticket effects

Clinton's legacy became an almost immediate media obsession overshadowing Gramm's transition and even putting the proceedings of Clinton's divorce to pages 5 and 6. Counter factual historians where given HUGE fodder and several impressive fictional time lines appeared both in print and on internet message boards... what if Clinton didn't knock up Lewinsky?... what if Linda Tripp never revealed the baby... what if the baby/pregnancy was revealed after the election... what if Monica had an abortion? etc etc Indeed a hypothetical 2nd Bill Clinton term became one of the most interesting subjects in literature for nearly a decade after the fact. Jeff Greenfield's 2003 book Clinton redux explored a situation where the baby's existance was leaked following a Clinton easy victory over Bob Doll leading to his subsequent impeachment due to the transfer of Monica Lewinsky to the pentagon, although the senate failed to convict, it left him crippled for the remainder of the term

In real life there was some division within the Republican party as to what to do with their victory. Newt Gingirch, Tom Delay and several other high ranking house republicans considered drawing up impeachment charges over the pentagon transfers as a final fuck you on the way out to Clinton; but Phil Gramm categorically rejected this "I love two fisted bare knuckles brawling politics like any Texan, but we already won, there is no need to spike the foot ball"

Gramm's announcements for cabinet picks included some notable people:

Former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and victor of the gulf war Colin Powell was picked for secretary of state
Robert Rubin would be retained from the Clinton administration to continue at the treasury department
Arizona Senator and decorated Vietnam vet John S McCain was picked for secretary of defense
Mayor of New York and former US attorney Rudy Guiliani was picked for attorney general
Kentucky Senator Mitch McConnell was picked for secretary of the interior
Kansas Governor Bill Graves was picked for secretary of agriculture
Businessman and close friend of Phill Gramm Michael Dell of Dell computers was picked for secretary of commerce... Michael Dell was compelled to divest nearly all of his holdings in order to accept the nomination
Governor of California Pete Wilson was picked to be secretary of Labor
Congressman Ron Paul of Texas was picked to be secretary of Health and Human services
Boeing executive vice president Alan Mulaly was picked to be secretary of transportation... he was something of an unknown, however he was Boeing's laison to the government for military sales, and had testified to the senate many times on a variety of issues and had made a very strong impression on Phil Gramm. Mulaly was widely recognized within Boeing and the aviation industry as a whole as a shrewd businessman with a strong knack for the getting the best out of people
Democratic Senator from Georgia Zell Miller was picked to head up the veterans affairs position
The office of management and budget was given to congresswoman Jennifer Dunn from New York
Congresswoman Tillie Fowler of Florida was picked to be the US trade representative
And the firebrand young congressman from Florida Joe Scarborough was picked to be Phil Gramm's chief of staff

what was more interesting and media covered than the qualified people Phil Gramm picked for his administration where the positions that went unfilled. Gramm had made a campaign pledge to eliminate/consolidate several cabinet departments in order to cut costs and reduce red tape. And with his majority about to be sworn in, he had indeed kept his word, so education, energy, housing, epa and drug control went unfilled as Gramm planned to eliminate the departments his first day in office

to be continued

thoughts?

[MarkWhittington]

No excessive celebration (Chapter 30) “hit more than a home run.” - Spencer Abraham

January 20th 1997 Washington DC (Victor Lewinsky is 18 weeks old)

The period between the decisive Republican victory in November and Phil Gramm's innaguration was a whirlwind. The media was stunned by the magnitude of Clinton's fall and several very interesting narratives to try and spin the story emerged

1. Fashioned by Fox News, the WSJ editorial board and talk radio tried to claim Clinton was a so-so president who had the benefit of some economic tail winds and responsible congress, and that his 92 victory was a function of Perot as opposed to any dent in the armor of a sustained republican majority... they downplayed the role of Linda Tripp, Matt Drudge and the Lewinsky scandal and tried to make that case that Phil Gramm could have won on his own merits
2. Fashioned by members of Clinton's staff and the New York Times; their narrative ran that Clinton had been a successful president and that his personal failings had directly pulled the plug on his campaign both by whipping up the religious right and by pissing off many socially moderate democrats who stayed home which had hugely negative down ticket effects

Clinton's legacy became an almost immediate media obsession overshadowing Gramm's transition and even putting the proceedings of Clinton's divorce to pages 5 and 6. Counter factual historians where given HUGE fodder and several impressive fictional time lines appeared both in print and on internet message boards... what if Clinton didn't knock up Lewinsky?... what if Linda Tripp never revealed the baby... what if the baby/pregnancy was revealed after the election... what if Monica had an abortion? etc etc Indeed a hypothetical 2nd Bill Clinton term became one of the most interesting subjects in literature for nearly a decade after the fact. Jeff Greenfield's 2003 book Clinton redux explored a situation where the baby's existance was leaked following a Clinton easy victory over Bob Doll leading to his subsequent impeachment due to the transfer of Monica Lewinsky to the pentagon, although the senate failed to convict, it left him crippled for the remainder of the term

In real life there was some division within the Republican party as to what to do with their victory. Newt Gingirch, Tom Delay and several other high ranking house republicans considered drawing up impeachment charges over the pentagon transfers as a final fuck you on the way out to Clinton; but Phil Gramm categorically rejected this "I love two fisted bare knuckles brawling politics like any Texan, but we already won, there is no need to spike the foot ball"

Gramm's announcements for cabinet picks included some notable people:

Former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and victor of the gulf war Colin Powell was picked for secretary of state
Robert Rubin would be retained from the Clinton administration to continue at the treasury department
Arizona Senator and decorated Vietnam vet John S McCain was picked for secretary of defense
Mayor of New York and former US attorney Rudy Guiliani was picked for attorney general
Kentucky Senator Mitch McConnell was picked for secretary of the interior
Kansas Governor Bill Graves was picked for secretary of agriculture
Businessman and close friend of Phill Gramm Michael Dell of Dell computers was picked for secretary of commerce... Michael Dell was compelled to divest nearly all of his holdings in order to accept the nomination
Governor of California Pete Wilson was picked to be secretary of Labor
Congressman Ron Paul of Texas was picked to be secretary of Health and Human services
Boeing executive vice president Alan Mulaly was picked to be secretary of transportation... he was something of an unknown, however he was Boeing's laison to the government for military sales, and had testified to the senate many times on a variety of issues and had made a very strong impression on Phil Gramm. Mulaly was widely recognized within Boeing and the aviation industry as a whole as a shrewd businessman with a strong knack for the getting the best out of people
Democratic Senator from Georgia Zell Miller was picked to head up the veterans affairs position
The office of management and budget was given to congresswoman Jennifer Dunn from New York
Congresswoman Tillie Fowler of Florida was picked to be the US trade representative
And the firebrand young congressman from Florida Joe Scarborough was picked to be Phil Gramm's chief of staff

what was more interesting and media covered than the qualified people Phil Gramm picked for his administration where the positions that went unfilled. Gramm had made a campaign pledge to eliminate/consolidate several cabinet departments in order to cut costs and reduce red tape. And with his majority about to be sworn in, he had indeed kept his word, so education, energy, housing, epa and drug control went unfilled as Gramm planned to eliminate the departments his first day in office

to be continued

thoughts?

As cool as I think this scenario is, Ron Paul as Sec of HHS? Seriously? Only if Gramm were planning to abolish the entire department. Paul is a radical libertarian who does not think that spending on health or welfare is a proper function of government.

[historybuff]

Good picks, except for Ron Paul, and you forgot National Security Advisor and US ambassador to the UN.

[David Floyd]

Yeah, Ron Paul would demolish HHS even in Gramm did not. Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing (whoops, politics talk, sorry), but I can easily seen Ron Paul refusing to spend a dime of federal money even if allocated to HHS.

[BlairWitch749]

Good picks, except for Ron Paul, and you forgot National Security Advisor and US ambassador to the UN.

Henry Catto Jr ambassador to the UN

John Michael McConnel National security advisor

[historybuff]

@BlairWitch749: No idea who they are.

[BlairWitch749]

@BlairWitch749: No idea who they are.

Catto was ambassador to UK under HW Bush (prominent TX business man of some sorts)

McConnel was a former director of the NSA

[historybuff]

@BlairWitch749: Great. A lot of people feel Ron Paul was a bad choice for Health Secretary.

[BlairWitch749]

@BlairWitch749: Great. A lot of people feel Ron Paul was a bad choice for Health Secretary.

Not every cabinet choice has to be brilliant or effective ;)

[mrmandias]

I'm interested in NASA. Gingrich is unusual for a politician in being genuinely informed about space policy and genuinely interested in it. Gramm, as far as I know, was more typical in that regard.

But might this lead to Gingrich getting through something like his Mars Prize program?

[bguy]

Is Jeb Hensarling working in the administration? I seem to recall he was once a protege of Gramm's.

Also agree with almost everyone else about Ron Paul. Could he even get confirmed? Giuliani is likely to have difficulties as well, since the Religious Right is not going to be at all happy about a pro-gay rights, pro-choice AG, and the NRA will probably have issues with him as well.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Amazing. Just continue.

[lothaw]

I like McCain's appointment as Secretary of Defense. Even as a Texan, I gotta go WTF over Ron Paul's appointment. Though I suppose it is his big chance to get on the national stage, which he's always seemed to want.

Keep up the awesome work!

[Orville_third]

If you want a good Republican nominee, try Bill Frist. He is a doctor, after all.
One wonders how the Clinton tapes will turn out ITTL...

[MarkWhittington]

I'm interested in NASA. Gingrich is unusual for a politician in being genuinely informed about space policy and genuinely interested in it. Gramm, as far as I know, was more typical in that regard.

But might this lead to Gingrich getting through something like his Mars Prize program?

I doubt that Newt would leave the Speakership for NASA nor would Gramm, who had a less--well--creative view of how human space flight should procede would appoint him. Mark Abrecht perhaps or maybe Pete Wordan.

[NoOneFamous]

Zell Miller? The man is crazy

[Antipater]

This TL is great, please keep it going.

The 2000 Democratic Party primaries should be quite interesting. Gore and Kerry would have plenty of time to plot their run for office, but they would be tarred by their electoral defeats. Looking good for Bill Bradley, if he still wants it!

I would like to see how Newt fares now that he is at the height his power, with both the executive and legislative branches controlled by his party. Of course he may have some competition setting the agenda for his party with Gramm in the White House.

I wonder how long he will be able to keep his affair with Callista on the DL ITTL? The MSM and the Democrats will want his hide once they get wind of it!

[BlairWitch749]

Zell Miller? The man is crazy

He is actually pretty badass on top of the crazy:p

he was and is more than qualified to run dept of vets affairs

[BlairWitch749]

This TL is great, please keep it going.

The 2000 Democratic Party primaries should be quite interesting. Gore and Kerry would have plenty of time to plot their run for office, but they would be tarred by their electoral defeats. Looking good for Bill Bradley, if he still wants it!

I would like to see how Newt fares now that he is at the height his power, with both the executive and legislative branches controlled by his party. Of course he may have some competition setting the agenda for his party with Gramm in the White House.

I wonder how long he will be able to keep his affair with Callista on the DL ITTL? The MSM and the Democrats will want his hide once they get wind of it!

Did his affair with Callista start by this point? I know it was 100 percent going on in 1998 during the otl Lewinsky scandal... seeing Clinton destroyed might dissaude him from starting it OR convince him to break it off

there could definently be some level of power struggle between newt and phil BUT newt is a party man first and foremost and phil's agenda is mostly party platform anyway

[Antipater]

Did his affair with Callista start by this point? I know it was 100 percent going on in 1998 during the otl Lewinsky scandal... seeing Clinton destroyed might dissaude him from starting it OR convince him to break it off

there could definently be some level of power struggle between newt and phil BUT newt is a party man first and foremost and phil's agenda is mostly party platform anyway

According to Callista's wiki page, the affair started in 1993. Of course Newt could break it off in '96 after seeing what became of Clinton, but that might only delay the inevitable day of reckoning. Probably surfaces when he tries to run for President in '04 during the primaries, at the latest.

Of course a run-of-the-mill extramarital affair is not comparable with having a child out of wedlock, nor does it approach the creepy-crawly level of the Mark Foley or Larry Craig in the public's mind. Probably a career ender for Newt, but nothing that would really tarnish the Republican Party, since it was Drudge and Fox News that really took down Clinton over the affair, not the GOP in this TL.

I wonder if Primary Colors gets a sequel in the TL?

[historybuff]

Who does Graham have as heads of the CIA and FBI?

[BlairWitch749]

Who does Graham have as heads of the CIA and FBI?

J Harvie Wilkonson III for the FBI (Louis Freed can't possibly stay on after his botch jobs during Clinton's first term)

Samuel Skinner at CIA

[Orville_third]

J Harvie Wilkonson III for the FBI (Louis Freed can't possibly stay on after his botch jobs during Clinton's first term)

Samuel Skinner at CIA
Freeh has a ten year term to serve. (Besides, Freeh tried to do things against the Clinton administration.) Sessions was the Director at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

[Orville_third]

He is actually pretty badass on top of the crazy:p

he was and is more than qualified to run dept of vets affairs
Of course, this could mean we have Senator Max Cleland sooner.

[thekingsguard]

The Gramm administration is looking ever more promising :-)

[usertron2020]

He is actually pretty badass on top of the crazy:p

he was and is more than qualified to run dept of vets affairs

Speaking as a long time employee of the VA (21 years), thanks for nothing. Miller won't last long.

Speaking of all these entire government departments to be closed down, well. That's going to boomerang on the GOP. Each of those departments have their own political constituencies throughout the country. And wait until the Cabinet and Congress suddenly finding every last slip up of theirs being blasted through the columns of the newspapers, and the internet. Politics by scandal is a two edged sword, as the GOP House discovered to their dismay in the Impeachment process and the 1998 elections.:mad:

[lord caedus]

Speaking as a long time employee of the VA (21 years), thanks for nothing. Miller won't last long.

I'm curious. Why do you think Zell Miller wouldn't last long at the VA?

[usertron2020]

I'm curious. Why do you think Zell Miller wouldn't last long at the VA?

Zell Miller will have his political appointees to work with, of course. But you cannot effectively administrate an enormous enterprise like the Department of Veteran's Affairs if your underlings have become convinced you intend to see them all on a bread line.:rolleyes: It was right around this time that the suggestions were flying about abolishing the VA and establishing a "coupon system" in which private hospitals would be federally mandated to accept veterans as patients. It broke down quickly when the various hospital lobbies, the insurance lobbies, and the AMA lobby registered a collective "Tilt!".

Any good civil service can, if it wishes to, tie its political master* in knots all the while making said master look like an incompetent fool by feeding everything he says in meetings to the media. No security, everything leaks, and when you throw in Zell Miller's volcanic temper on top of that, I would predict that President Gramm is going to find that Miller is going to be his first major appointment to get the heave-ho. Somebody will have to be first. They can't ALL work out. Even Lincoln had to shitcan his first Secretary of War.

The CURRENT Secretary of Veteran's Affairs, retired General Eric Shinseki**, is easily the most popular boss we've ever had. If HE accidently leaves potentially embarrassing paperwork on his desk when he leaves for the day, rest assured it'll be there in the morning, untouched. Not stolen, not even photocopied to be given to someone's friend at the Post, or e-mailed to Matt Drudge.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-Check out the BBC series "Yes Minister".:D A hilarious demonstration of what happens when a politician tries to declare war on the civil service. It's more extreme in the UK, but the relationship between political appointees and career civil servants in the US is not COMPLETELY dis-similar.

Anybody remember how much trouble George W. Bush's hack of an Attorney General Alberto Gonzales got into for firing several CAREER CIVIL SERVICE PROSECUTORS FOR REFUSING TO CALL OFF PROSECUTIONS AGAINST REPUBLICANS AND GOING AFTER INDIVIDUAL DEMOCRATS WHERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES CLEARLY WARRANTED NO INVESTIGATION? When HE got the heave-ho, even Michelle Malkin said (while subbing for Bill O'Reilly): "Don't break out the hankies for THIS guy, folks. He was a lousy crony appointee!"

I myself had to put up with an SOB of a hospital director (political appointee) until he got canned. How? The Office of the Inspector General (OIG) discovered the hospital director and HIS boss were writing each other's performance evaluations, which meant thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars going to them in annual bonuses.

How did the OIG find out? Easy. The underlings this guy had been treating like complete and total shit put two and two together, and slipped the information to a local newspaper.:D This was the bastard who ordered our section's floor space to be reduced by 80% over the years until every other comparable service in the VA in the Northeast has as much as two football fields to work over whereas we have the equivalent of a three bedroom apartment. Now he's looking at Club Fed. Too bad! So sad! Bye-bye!:D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If anybody but Zell Miller goes first, I'm pressing for this TL to be transferred to ASB.:mad::rolleyes:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**-General Shinseki, as US Army Chief-of-Staff, told Congress it would take several hundred thousand troops to pacify Iraq. So Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney fired him. More than three years later, the Centcom Commander, General Abizaid, testified to Congress that Shinseki was correct. A prophet is not without honor except in his own country.:(

[Plumber]

Zell Miller will have his political appointees to work with, of course. But you cannot effectively administrate an enormous enterprise like the Department of Veteran's Affairs if your underlings have become convinced you intend to see them all on a bread line.:rolleyes: It was right around this time that the suggestions were flying about abolishing the VA and establishing a "coupon system" in which private hospitals would be federally mandated to accept veterans as patients. It broke down quickly when the various hospital lobbies, the insurance lobbies, and the AMA lobby registered a collective "Tilt!".

Any good civil service can, if it wishes to, tie its political master* in knots all the while making said master look like an incompetent fool by feeding everything he says in meetings to the media. No security, everything leaks, and when you throw in Zell Miller's volcanic temper on top of that, I would predict that President Gramm is going to find that Miller is going to be his first major appointment to get the heave-ho. Somebody will have to be first. They can't ALL work out. Even Lincoln had to shitcan his first Secretary of War.

The CURRENT Secretary of Veteran's Affairs, retired General Eric Shinseki**, is easily the most popular boss we've ever had. If HE accidently leaves potentially embarrassing paperwork on his desk when he leaves for the day, rest assured it'll be there in the morning, untouched. Not stolen, not even photocopied to be given to someone's friend at the Post, or e-mailed to Matt Drudge.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-Check out the BBC series "Yes Minister".:D A hilarious demonstration of what happens when a politician tries to declare war on the civil service. It's more extreme in the UK, but the relationship between political appointees and career civil servants in the US is not COMPLETELY dis-similar.

Anybody remember how much trouble George W. Bush's hack of an Attorney General Alberto Gonzales got into for firing several CAREER CIVIL SERVICE PROSECUTORS FOR REFUSING TO CALL OFF PROSECUTIONS AGAINST REPUBLICANS AND GOING AFTER INDIVIDUAL DEMOCRATS WHERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES CLEARLY WARRANTED NO INVESTIGATION? When HE got the heave-ho, even Michelle Malkin said (while subbing for Bill O'Reilly): "Don't break out the hankies for THIS guy, folks. He was a lousy crony appointee!"

I myself had to put up with an SOB of a hospital director (political appointee) until he got canned. How? The Office of the Inspector General (OIG) discovered the hospital director and HIS boss were writing each other's performance evaluations, which meant thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars going to them in annual bonuses.

How did the OIG find out? Easy. The underlings this guy had been treating like complete and total shit put two and two together, and slipped the information to a local newspaper.:D This was the bastard who ordered our section's floor space to be reduced by 80% over the years until every other comparable service in the VA in the Northeast has as much as two football fields to work over whereas we have the equivalent of a three bedroom apartment. Now he's looking at Club Fed. Too bad! So sad! Bye-bye!:D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If anybody but Zell Miller goes first, I'm pressing for this TL to be transferred to ASB.:mad::rolleyes:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**-General Shinseki, as US Army Chief-of-Staff, told Congress it would take several hundred thousand troops to pacify Iraq. So Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney fired him. More than three years later, the Centcom Commander, General Abizaid, testified to Congress that Shinseki was correct. A prophet is not without honor except in his own country.:(
Those anecdotes have made my day :)
Yes, I think both Zell Miller and Ron Paul are going to get fired for doing something stupid

[BlairWitch749]

Those anecdotes have made my day :)
Yes, I think both Zell Miller and Ron Paul are going to get fired for doing something stupid

Not every cabinet appointment can or should expected to be brilliant; Bush and Clinton had their doozies... I mean the justice dept was a fucking train wreck in both administrations

You get good and bad picks, same as any other administration... McCain, Powell, Dunn and Scarborough would probably be very effective, whereas the Ron Paul's and Zell Miller's would need to be axed fairly early... keep in mind this is 1996 its not known exactly that Zell Miller is a complete hot head/defacto republican strong man... he would at this time be presented as a moderate dem governor who is a marine vet; which would make him a fairly common sense non controvsial pick since his personality isn't that well known... the defects would come out afterwards

[Gridley]

Not every cabinet appointment can or should expected to be brilliant; ...You get good and bad picks, same as any other administration...

Exactly. This isn't supposed to be a dream team, this is supposed to be a reasonably likely cabinet for Gramm. I think it seems pretty good for that objective.

[Caesar Australis]

How far are you planning to take this TL? Through Gramm's presidency I assume, or perhaps to present day?

[BlairWitch749]

How far are you planning to take this TL? Through Gramm's presidency I assume, or perhaps to present day?

I don't know... when I outlined it, it was only to a Gramm victory, but feedback has demanded it continue at least a bit longer... I have semi outlined a Gramm first 100 days type agenda; the pace of the updates might be slow though; it took me 15 months to come up with everything up to chapter 29

[Gridley]

I don't know... when I outlined it, it was only to a Gramm victory, but feedback has demanded it continue at least a bit longer... I have semi outlined a Gramm first 100 days type agenda; the pace of the updates might be slow though; it took me 15 months to come up with everything up to chapter 29

Slow updates are better than none. I'm still enjoying the story.

[Cylon_Number_14]

I really want to see the Congressional fights over abolishing the depts of Ed, Energy, EPA, and Drug Control... should be a doozie, bloodbath, and wildly entertaining no matter what side of the argument one is in!

[BlairWitch749]

I really want to see the Congressional fights over abolishing the depts of Ed, Energy, EPA, and Drug Control... should be a doozie, bloodbath, and wildly entertaining no matter what side of the argument one is in!

The Republicans have a clear majority in both houses, the dem counter speeches would be nasty, but there wouldn't be any threat to the abolishment/merging bills passing

[NoOneFamous]

What's happening with Tripp?

[usertron2020]

What's happening with Tripp?

Working on her book no one will buy, or even publish...:rolleyes: Then meeting a man, getting married, and going to work for him. As in, he'll be the only employer who can trust her as an employee. In short, OTL.:p

[Sean Mulligan]

Gramms ultra right policies will likely cause a huge backlash either by the 98 Congressional elections or the 2000 congressional and presidential elections, with someone like Paul Wellstone defeating Gramm for the presidency. Hopefully the fact that Rubin is in the Gramm cabinet will descredit Rubinomics among Democrats.

[usertron2020]

Gramms ultra right policies will likely cause a huge backlash either by the 98 Congressional elections or the 2000 congressional and presidential elections, with someone like Paul Wellstone defeating Gramm for the presidency. Hopefully the fact that Rubin is in the Gramm cabinet will descredit Rubinomics among Democrats.

More likely 1998, as the GOP 1996 Election ITTL was a very artificial one based on a sex scandal. The tallies were not based on anything nefarious done by the Democratic Party at large, nor any great breakthroughs achieved by the GOP ala the Gingrich Revolution. To a large degree, electorally, in 1996, the GOP didn't have very much more to go upwards prior to the corrections of the 2000 Census.

The landslide ITTL was the result of shock and anger by Independents going over en masse to the GOP and the Democrats largely staying home in protest against a schmuck of a president.:mad: With Clinton gone, there's no reason for voters (and voting districts) not to resume their normal voting patterns in 1998. Especially if President Gramm decides to govern the country as President of the Republican Party!:mad:

BlairWitch749

You are the forum's resident expert on Phil Gramm. How would he govern? Consensus? Or 50% + 1 vote?:confused:

EDIT: The 1998 Election will represent the "1996 Landslide Monica-Gate House" trying to defend itself. An off-year election is hard enough for incumbents. This could be crippling for Speaker Newt. The Senate election represents the Class of 1992 defending their seats. IOTL, it was a wash. Again, maintaining a 61 seat cloture free majority will probably be impossible. 1998 IOTL was a six year Democratic White House incumbency election. Yet because of Impeachment, the GOP took a relative bath in what should have been a GOP landslide, with at least a 30 House, 5 Senate seat pickup.

ITTL? A two year incumbent GOP President? Too many PO'd Dems, upset Indies, and too many complacent GOPers. And too many GOP House freshman elected in purple or even pale blue districts.

[BlairWitch749]

More likely 1998, as the GOP 1996 Election ITTL was a very artificial one based on a sex scandal. The tallies were not based on anything nefarious done by the Democratic Party at large, nor any great breakthroughs achieved by the GOP ala the Gingrich Revolution. To a large degree, electorally, in 1996, the GOP didn't have very much more to go upwards prior to the corrections of the 2000 Census.

The landslide ITTL was the result of shock and anger by Independents going over en masse to the GOP and the Democrats largely staying home in protest against a schmuck of a president.:mad: With Clinton gone, there's no reason for voters (and voting districts) not to resume their normal voting patterns in 1998. Especially if President Gramm decides to govern the country as President of the Republican Party!:mad:

BlairWitch749

You are the forum's resident expert on Phil Gramm. How would he govern? Consensus? Or 50% + 1 vote?:confused:

EDIT: The 1998 Election will represent the "1996 Landslide Monica-Gate House" trying to defend itself. An off-year election is hard enough for incumbents. This could be crippling for Speaker Newt. The Senate election represents the Class of 1992 defending their seats. IOTL, it was a wash. Again, maintaining a 61 seat cloture free majority will probably be impossible. 1998 IOTL was a six year Democratic White House incumbency election. Yet because of Impeachment, the GOP took a relative bath in what should have been a GOP landslide, or at least a 30 House, 5 Senate seat pickup.

ITTL? A two year incumbent GOP President? Too many PO'd Dems, upset Indies, and too many complacent GOPers. And too many GOP House freshman elected in purple or even pale blue districts.


Gramm doesn't have to build consensus, he has super majorities and wouldn't be afraid to press his advantages given the dynamics that would come in 1998 no matter what he does; so he has 2 years to press the agenda home; assuming he and newt can stay on the same page...this would require some massaging of newt's ego in order for him not to go off the reservation

[usertron2020]

Gramm doesn't have to build consensus, he has super majorities and wouldn't be afraid to press his advantages given the dynamics that would come in 1998 no matter what he does; so he has 2 years to press the agenda home; assuming he and newt can stay on the same page...this would require some massaging of newt's ego in order for him not to go off the reservation

Makes good sense. With no experience with any bursting bubbles, the economy should burn white hot through the late 1990's. I guess it's just a matter of personal opinion whether the bubbles (dot.coms, banking, stock market, derivatives) blow up. Those who believe in stoking the flames of deregulation will think it delays, or lightens, the Day of Doom. Those who remember the Great Depression...:eek: Which is why I think Phil Gramm will not emerge from all this a happy man in the end.

Even Calvin Coolidge privately didn't like what he saw going on in the stock market, but he knew it was already too late to do anything about it, in terms of preventing a panic (and stock collapse). Did Hoover ever see the light?:confused:

[BlairWitch749]

Makes good sense. With no experience with any bursting bubbles, the economy should burn white hot through the late 1990's. I guess it's just a matter of personal opinion whether the bubbles (dot.coms, banking, stock market, derivatives) blow up. Those who believe in stoking the flames of deregulation will think it delays, or lightens, the Day of Doom. Those who remember the Great Depression...:eek: Which is why I think Phil Gramm will not emerge from all this a happy man in the end.

Even Calvin Coolidge privately didn't like what he saw going on in the stock market, but he knew it was already too late to do anything about it, in terms of preventing a panic (and stock collapse). Did Hoover ever see the light?:confused:

Gramm was in on W's deregulation kick in 01 and 02... the only rule that passed that had any real effect on the market was elimination of the "uptick rule" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uptick_rule) which allowed naked short selling.

From what I know of the market, this wouldn't pop the bubble sooner if Gramm passed it, it would perhaps make the popping more severe when it happens... although according to my friend who is a broker at Schwab, this wouldn't have huge effect in the 90's because algorithmic computerized trading programs don't exist at that point and taking advantage of the uptick rule manually is more or less impossible

[BlairWitch749]

100 days that changed the face of America (Chapter 31 Part I) “The Internet is probably the most significant thing that has come along,” - Michael Dell


January 20th 1997 Washington DC (Victor Lewinsky is 18 weeks old) (note these updates will be dated 1/20/97 but will obviously take place over a longer period of time... the date is merely used as a starting point)



Michael Dell was one of the most interesting and as it turned out later highly effective members of the Gramm administration; just 31 years old and already one of the wealthiest men in the country as the lead at Dell computers out of Houston Texas. A long time aquaintence of Phil Gramm but not necessarily a political ally, he had originally scoffed at the offer to take over the commerce department which required him to divest his massive financial holdings; but Gramm knew how to appeal to Dell's patriotism and ego. The offer was simple Gramm would have a massive majority and he was determined to drag the country agressively forward from a technology perspective and he needed someone like Michael Dell to mold the country's commerce infrastructure. "you'll make a fortune selling out, give me four years of your best work and the country will be forever grateful, think of all the amazing companies you can spawn, when you retire you can buy in and build another empire for yourself Michael"

http://gigaom.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/dell10_72.jpg?w=629&h=449
Secretary of Commerce Michael Dell

Michael Dell blazed through confirmation; not only due to Republican numbers but also because he was generally uncontroversial and highly thought of in the business community. Dell quickly became an incredably useful tool for Gramm due to his name recognition, popularity and ability to keep things from polarizing; when Gramm had an issue to bring to congress or the people; Michael Dell was always his most useful sounding board and the first person he would send out to do the talk show circuit to sell his plans

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/11/17/business/17gramm2-600.jpg
Not every pick of President Gramm's was brilliant, but his fellow Texan Michael Dell proved a winner from the start


One of Dell's first jobs was in keeping a Phil Gramm campaign promise. Gramm had stated that as a large scale alternative to stricter gun laws that a system of "instant check" needed to be devised where gun sellers and local law enforcement could instantly get the history of applicants and in Gramm's words "keep deadly weapons out of the hands of deadly people". What Michael Dell proposed to meet this promise was ground breaking:

He wished to create an inter connected network of criminal databases compromising federal, state and local law enforcement records and then to create a series of terminals that would be able to access it. This would be a massive undertaking as many departments hadn't computerized themselves at all yet let alone inputted older records. But Michael Dell was a man of solutions and Gramm had a compliant congress who saw other potential uses for Michael Dell's idea. To pre-empt local departments complaining about not having the resources or funding to upload all of their records Dell advised the President that considerable resources would have to be spent. And indeed in the end they where; over an 3 and a half year period over 40 billion dollars was laid out in block grants to state and local law enforcement to configure themselves to get access to the system and to upload files going back to the 1950's. The program would have finished earlier with considerably less cost if it had only been kept to the original idea of gun control; however Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich was enthralled by the system which finally started to take the gun control debate in a new direction and the generally positive feedback from local police forces and politicians; so he created legislation to expand Dell's system to include sex offenders, violent criminals and all evidence gathered on such people and unsolved cases.

A massive server farm was built in Fairfax Virginia to house the brain of Michael Dell's idea. It was named the CODEUS building and this ended up being the name that stuck to the entire program. As the program advanced police forces where generally able to catch up to their backlogs thanks to generous funding from the federal government which allowed them to hire additional staff for data entry and file catalouging... by the end of the century, police forces at every level would be entering all new evidence into the CODEUS system and they could access it to obtain records on suspects which greatly simplified many prosecutions and allowed CODEUS to become one of the most successful programs of the Gramm administration

It's original intent was also fairly successful (although measuring progress involved some real digging due to other factors lowering crime) Gun dealers could take applications from their customers along with a non refundable $25 deposit and call into a special FBI hotline which connected them to a clerk with access to a CODEUS computer and within 5 minutes of providing the customer's information, the CODEUS operator could tell the dealer if the customer had a criminal record, outstanding warrants or was suspected in crimes. Within 36 months the number of gun denials increased 1600 percent from 1995 levels and as the system improved and expanded to include other crimes besides gun related ones its effectiveness increased even more so to the point where gun dealers started complaining the system was hurting their sales over parking tickets (although this was an exaggeration; it did go to a point that dealers indeed made some portions of their yearly sales figures to people who should not have been allowed to purchase fire arms)

to be continued


thoughts?

http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/1083011926_3228.jpg
Michael Dell was the mover and shaker behind the creation of the CODEUS criminal database system which ended up being one of the justice department's greatest infrastructure investments ever

[RogueBeaver]

Keep it coming BW.

[historybuff]

Awesome stuff. Wonder how Gramm's gonna handle foreign policy with his Secretary of State, and I forgot who you picked for that position.

[Wendell]

Ron Paul at HHS, really?

[BlairWitch749]

Ron Paul at HHS, really?


Every cabinet has its problem child... Putting Dell and Mulaly in there was probably a bit wankish so I needed to counter balance them with a couple of doozies/sure to be problems

Historybuff, Colin Powell is Sec State

[Wendell]

Every cabinet has its problem child... Putting Dell and Mulaly in there was probably a bit wankish so I needed to counter balance them with a couple of doozies/sure to be problems

Historybuff, Colin Powell is Sec State

I'm just surprised that Gramm would ask and that Paul would accept, particularly given that IIRC there are other Republicans in Congress with medical degrees at that time.

[BlairWitch749]

I'm just surprised that Gramm would ask and that Paul would accept, particularly given that IIRC there are other Republicans in Congress with medical degrees at that time.

Paul is a fellow Texan, and someone of some clout within the party (even if from the fringe); its certainly not who I would pick, but not ASB... and like I said, balance was a motivating factor; I didn't want it to be dream team wank cabinet... figure he is a negative reach where Mulaly is a positive reach

[Tyg]

Dell's little project there, and the full digitization of law enforcement nation-wide has significant implications for the economy as a whole and other areas. Maybe we see earlier electronic medical records?

But on the economy, this is a great example of how one can use the increasingly available technologies for directly productive purposes. It's a great demonstration that corporations and large organizations will be imitating all over the place in an attempt to organize their databases in electronic formats accessible from anywhere.

Ideally, the dot-com boom might be redirected from the immature consumer service models to rather less exciting but more profitable B2B investments ITTL, but Gramm's policies elsewhere and whatever Congress cooks up will have a big say in that.

I don't think that the bubble would occur in the same way though, regardless of whatever happens next. There'll just be too many changes that people will be adapting to, and long-run projects and decisions are going to be made that take into account the shifting business/economic environment partly caused by the difference in policy. Heck, even the Federal Reserve will react differently, and that alters the whole contours of the financial world.

The Dot-Com bust really was an very shallow recession OTL anyways, it wouldn't take too much to largely avoid it, though one could still imagine a soft patch when internet rhetoric meets reality for a few over-eager companies.

That's all ideal though... Gramm or Congress could screw things up if they set their minds to it, economic tailwinds or not.

[Orville_third]

Dell's project scares me...

[stubear1012]

A minor point. Michael Dell's company is headquartered in Round Rock, TX and has buildings in both Round Rock, TX and Austin, TX. Michael lives in Austin.

Thank you

Stubear1012

[Antipater]

Dell's project scares me...

Yeah, it does sound vaguely 1984-ish, but if if shortened the waiting or "cooling off" period required to buy a gun in certain liberal states such as Connecticut, I would be all for it.

Such as system would also be handy for airport security, especially around 2001 or so. By 2011, combined with facial recognition software, such a database would be a truly formidable tool in the hands of law enforcement.

[usertron2020]

On a gun control national database...how does it address gun shows and front buying? This system assumes honest gun merchants.:rolleyes:

[BlairWitch749]

On a gun control national database...how does it address gun shows and front buying? This system assumes honest gun merchants.:rolleyes:

the gun shows would be required to do CODEUS background checks as a condition of being permited to operate... it wouldn't completely eliminate illegal gun purchases; it would just help

[BlairWitch749]

Yeah, it does sound vaguely 1984-ish, but if if shortened the waiting or "cooling off" period required to buy a gun in certain liberal states such as Connecticut, I would be all for it.

Such as system would also be handy for airport security, especially around 2001 or so. By 2011, combined with facial recognition software, such a database would be a truly formidable tool in the hands of law enforcement.

This system exists in real life (albeit it was developed along a different arc for different purposes; the CODEUS system is a national DNA database developed for sex offender crimes, missing persons, unsolved murders etc and continually expanded)

The real life version has been useful in prosecutions and solving many cases, but it has also exonnerated people who have been in jail (sometimes for decades) by providing an evidence database that can name alternate suspects based on the evidence on file

[Orville_third]

Oh, I think that HHS secretary Paul would be very upset over a similar plan for health.

[NoOneFamous]

keep it up. Please tell me that Tripp is serving time in a Supermax:D

[BlairWitch749]

keep it up. Please tell me that Tripp is serving time in a Supermax:D

Tripp will be addressed when I do a 100 days update on the justice dept... I think I am going to do one more with Michael Dell at Commerce then I'll get nice and deep into the sleeze

[usertron2020]

Tripp will be addressed when I do a 100 days update on the justice dept... I think I am going to do one more with Michael Dell at Commerce then I'll get nice and deep into the sleeze

I would think Newt and a majority of GOP House members (especially freshmen) would make it impossible for the Gramm Administration to delve too deeply into the sleeze. After all, wouldn't that mean taking on the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (VRWC(tm)) and all the high-powered Republican $$$ men behind the VRWC? I would think ANY Republican Justice Department would go "Tilt" just trying, not to mention the accusations of treason bursting out of Hate Radio and the FNC. In short, a good chunk of Gramm's base.

[BlairWitch749]

I would think Newt and a majority of GOP House members (especially freshmen) would make it impossible for the Gramm Administration to delve too deeply into the sleeze. After all, wouldn't that mean taking on the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (VRWC(tm)) and all the high-powered Republican $$$ men behind the VRWC? I would think ANY Republican Justice Department would go "Tilt" just trying, not to mention the accusations of treason bursting out of Hate Radio and the FNC. In short, a good chunk of Gramm's base.

I meant sleeze in actually talking about Tripp and her fallout following the election, not the Gramm administration turning dealing with her into a huge spectacle

[usertron2020]

I meant sleeze in actually talking about Tripp and her fallout following the election, not the Gramm administration turning dealing with her into a huge spectacle

I would imagine she wouldn't have any trouble at all, with Gramm as President. She certainly couldn't find a job, but that's only because no one would be crazy enough to hire her. Except her husband, as IOTL.

[BlairWitch749]

I would imagine she wouldn't have any trouble at all, with Gramm as President. She certainly couldn't find a job, but that's only because no one would be crazy enough to hire her. Except her husband, as IOTL.

a successful prosecution of her, as it was in otl is asb... finding an impartial jury is asb; it would be a question of what punishment she would take as part of her deal with the justice dept

[Plumber]

a successful prosecution of her, as it was in otl is asb... finding an impartial jury is asb; it would be a question of what punishment she would take as part of her deal with the justice dept
An impartial jury shouldn't be asb; about half of the country doesn't care about politics more or less.

[BlairWitch749]

An impartial jury shouldn't be asb; about half of the country doesn't care about politics more or less.

the trial would be in washington dc... everyone (especially with the scandal being considerably elevated versus otl) would know who she is and what she did

plus it would be embarrassing and a 3 ring circus to prosecute.... it would be better for all parties to not even pretend a trial would be viable for her

[usertron2020]

the trial would be in washington dc... everyone (especially with the scandal being considerably elevated versus otl) would know who she is and what she did

plus it would be embarrassing and a 3 ring circus to prosecute.... it would be better for all parties to not even pretend a trial would be viable for her

The Goldman Family has a better chance of getting OJ's $$$ (minus football pension) than any prosecutor would have of nailing Tripp. Even Jack McCoy would throw up his hands.:rolleyes:

As to Tripp herself, no deal, no plea. This woman's ego was more monstrous than anyone else's in the whole of the Clinton Wars. Even Bill Clinton's!:mad: The lowest possible level of political appointee in the Bush White House, she personally took it upon herself to engineer the revenge of the Bushies. After issuing complaints about her being fired (as if she were career civil service rather than a west wing employee of the Bush Administration) she got herself transferred to where she could spy on the Clinton Administration. And the government shutdown gave her the opportunity she was looking for.

With the VRWC giving 100% funding for her legal bills (with Dream Team 2 to call on) and probably paying all her other bills as well, she's sitting in the catbird seat. She knows that statistically there will be one or two jurors who will see her as a saint.:rolleyes: She has nothing to worry about. Unless she faces a Federal judge appointed by Clinton or Carter who is every bit as prejudicial and partisan as she is.:eek:

[BlairWitch749]

The Goldman Family has a better chance of getting OJ's $$$ (minus football pension) than any prosecutor would have of nailing Tripp. Even Jack McCoy would throw up his hands.:rolleyes:

As to Tripp herself, no deal, no plea. This woman's ego was more monstrous than anyone else's in the whole of the Clinton Wars. Even Bill Clinton's!:mad: The lowest possible level of political appointee in the Bush White House, she personally took it upon herself to engineer the revenge of the Bushies. After issuing complaints about her being fired (as if she were career civil service rather than a west wing employee of the Bush Administration) she got herself transferred to where she could spy on the Clinton Administration. And the government shutdown gave her the opportunity she was looking for.

With the VRWC giving 100% funding for her legal bills (with Dream Team 2 to call on) and probably paying all her other bills as well, she's sitting in the catbird seat. She knows that statistically there will be one or two jurors who will see her as a saint.:rolleyes: She has nothing to worry about. Unless she faces a Federal judge appointed by Clinton or Carter who is every bit as prejudicial and partisan as she is.:eek:


Although she came off as a partisan hack here and in otl; her actual actions prior to Clinton getting into office (leaking the Fitzgerald-Bush senior affair to the Washington Post) and the reason she was taping in the first place seems to have been about money as opposed to politics... i would consider her more a mercenary/scumbag than a political hack/sumbag

I can't imagine any judge wanting to touch that case with a ten foot pole it would be so utterly political; and she could create a whistleblower defense that Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity will ram home so hard prior to a trial that they could never find a decent jury pool; given the dyamics that would be in place before hand; no prosecutor or justice dept (clinton or gramm's) is going to want any more public attention drawn to Linda Tripp; it would be ASB for them to not come up with an agreement of x punishment to not press charges (like a worse version of sandy berger)

[usertron2020]

So it was more a matter of how she presented herself to her backers (Fox News, et al) during the Clinton Wars, regardless of her previous background? Makes sense, since the VRWC saw Bush I as a RINO anyway.:rolleyes:

[NoOneFamous]

There is no way in hell she could keep her job.

[usertron2020]

There is no way in hell she could keep her job.

One of the myths about Linda Tripp was that she HAD a job to lose. She wasn't career civil service, like say the Secret Service, White House Security, or janitorial staff. She was the lowest of political appointees who came in with the Bush Administration and was supposed to go with it! To this day I do not understand what anybody in the Clinton West Wing was thinking of by letting her stay on. Such people stay on for a while during transition, but not afterwards, unless specifically asked. Pretty sure she was long gone by this time OTL, but ITTL?:confused: Can't see her surviving ANY government security check, considering the number of oaths she's broken.

[NoOneFamous]

She can also forget about getting any jobs that require security clearances in the private sector

[Sumeragi]

Hmmm..... Being a Hillary Supporter, and assuming that Graham manages to win 2000, she might have a shot at being a candidate for 2004. Interesting, I would say.

May Bill was the grave that Hillary needed to make in order for her ultimate vicory :p

[usertron2020]

The author's enthusiasm for the GOP makes you wonder what type of shape economically this country would be for Bill Clinton in OTL left us with a surplus.

Be careful what you wish for an earlier round of tax cuts for the top 1% of the public, attacks on social security and more deregulation might lead us to the second GOP great depression and lead us to Hillary Clinton winning the Presidency in 2004.

No comment.

[BlairWitch749]

Hmmm..... Being a Hillary Supporter, and assuming that Graham manages to win 2000, she might have a shot at being a candidate for 2004. Interesting, I would say.

May Bill was the grave that Hillary needed to make in order for her ultimate vicory :p

as stated previously; Hillary will not be a loser in this tl

[BlairWitch749]

100 days that changed the face of America (Chapter 31 Part II) “We believe there is a strong commitment at the highest levels of government, now we need to make it happen.” - Michael Dell

Washinton DC January 20th 1997 (Victor Lewinsky is 18 weeks old)

Digitilization of the entire federal government wasn't just something Commerce secretary Michael Dell believed in, it was something the entire Gramm administration became wholeheartedly committed to.

Several bills where passed rapidly through the Republican dominated congress consolidating federal technology purchases into the commerce department and giving them strong oversite into allocation. This produced a great deal of grumbling from lower levels and purchasing agents of the various cabinet agencies but given Michael Dell and his staff's high expertise in this sector, their promise not to intrude on any other department policies and his personal garuantee to make the system smooth and highly functional, he was given the benefit of the doubt to start

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZwIqDPMDF_s/TWOW4N9SdoI/AAAAAAAACqY/badys5PVib0/s1600/Michael+Dell+-+Dell.jpg
Commerce secretary Michael Dell's considerable experience with computing technology saw his department charged with overseeing the computerization of large parts of the federal government

As existing contracts and inventories where delivered to Dell for study, he was saddened and angered by how diffuse and irrational the whole situation was. A wise man in his industry had said years before that computers double in speed and power every 24 months; and indeed, throughout Michael Dell's career this had proved true. What ended up happening to the federal government, businesses and indeed the growing home PC market was that they would spend hundreds if not thousands on a state of the art computer; which would be rendered completely obsolete to the point of not being able to run any new software within 24 months.

http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/startupshutdown/splash/win31.png


http://news.cnet.com/i/tim//2010/08/24/1995Win95Launch_web_610x388.jpg

Massive computing leaps forward such as from windows 3.1 to windows 95 made investment in computers extremely tricky for the federal government since their equipment depreciated on a previously unknown scale

Michael Dell saw it as a three pronged problem:

1. Buying new computers involved a substantial upfront investment
2. Those new computers became obsolete so quickly that the government never could get their money's worth out of their operation
3. In an attempt to recoup their investments from point two the government in some agencies was soldiering on with bad equipment which reduced effecincies and potential of the work force

The solution Dell stumbled on was simple, effective and had considerable ripples throughout the economy... leases

What Michael Dell and his department ended up ordering proved a very useful model both for the government at all levels, and for businesses of all sizes

He set up contracts to be on a rolling series of 3 year leases (meaning the government was always replacing 1/3 of its computers on a yearly basis with the newest and most effective models) but at the same time avoiding the huge up front cost of buying the machines entirely and this also created a vast and highly successful secondary market for "off lease" machines which allowed many lower middle class and lower class users to buy computers who would otherwise not have been able to get one in a big box store. It also ensured a highly steady flow of sales for the entire computer industry which allowed them to reduce overall prices; plus Dell's rolling contract not only ensured steady demand, but created rigorous competition and R&D to win lucrative government lease contracts. The progress was stunning; on the day Michael Dell was sworn in at Commerce, the fastest processor in government machines was the Intel Pentium II with a speed of 300mhz; and this would be in machines that cost over 2000 dollars; and by the end of the century, the Pentium IV could perform well at 2ghz on a machine that cost 750 dollars over the life of its lease

http://softsupplier.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/p4ht_orig.png
The Pentium 4 processor represented computer processing speeds increasing nearly 800 percent from the first day Michael Dell took over the commerce department

It wasn't all easy, Dell was forced to bargain in blood with Bill Gates and other software developers to make sure their programs where 100 percent backwards compatible since 2/3 of his computers would always be at least a year old; this ended up pushing software development into a 3 year renewal cycle along side the PC's which proved a strong benefit in the end since they could take advantage of the continually improving computing power of the machines


To look of course at Dell's administration of the lease program is only to see a small part of what happened. His efforts radiated down to all departments; backlogs of paperwork and administration at departments ranging from social security, to medicare to veterans affairs started decreasing as their computers continually and aggressively where upgraded to perform faster overall and for better multi tasking

to be continued...

thoughts?

http://meridianlrc.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/320_happy_computer_man1.jpg
A picture from Commerce Secretary Michael Dell's wall, showing a happy government worker with his computer

[historybuff]

Interesting idea from Dell, but he's gotta realize that'll take a lot of time getting it all set up and ready. Hope you focus on other cabinet members, not that I'm complaining.

[Sumeragi]

A problem I foresee is trying to secure the data from being leaked when the leases are over...


as stated previously; Hillary will not be a loser in this tl

Don't get my hopes up needlessly :p

[BlairWitch749]

A problem I foresee is trying to secure the data from being leaked when the leases are over...




Don't get my hopes up needlessly :p

reformatting/wiping a hard drive isn't a huge deal

[Tyg]

Dell's project also puts a lot of pressure on state and local governments to adopt similar standards for IT, and that's where most of the day-to-day matters will see changes. It's interesting to think how all levels of government having better integrated technology and management thereof will adapt to the internet. Since most information will be digitized, it can theoretically be made accessible online, and allows for most activities to be nicely consolidated electronically. Early and easy public service access online is awesome.

A problem I foresee is trying to secure the data from being leaked when the leases are over...

It's possible that computers in sensitive departments or uses could have their hard drives removed and destroyed before any transfers. Though I'd expect that for many such particularly secure machines, they're just bought anyway. Either way, it's not really an issue for the vast majority of the federal government's computing needs.

[Gridley]

A problem I foresee is trying to secure the data from being leaked when the leases are over...


Indeed, this will be a security nightmare.

reformatting/wiping a hard drive isn't a huge deal

One? No. One million a year? Yes. Also, wiping is not considered sufficient for media that has been used to store data at Secret classification or above.

There's also the problem of accidental data destruction, not to mention an entire bureaucracy will need to be created to process the transfers.


It's possible that computers in sensitive departments or uses could have their hard drives removed and destroyed before any transfers. Though I'd expect that for many such particularly secure machines, they're just bought anyway. Either way, it's not really an issue for the vast majority of the federal government's computing needs.

Sensitive information doesn't just include Secret, Top Secret, etc. though - the IRS, for example, handles a huge amount of information (anything with social security numbers, etc.) that is generally considered sensitive.

Also, bear in mind that anyone involved in the destruction process needs a clearance.

The plan will certainly provide some benefits to the .gov, but it will also create some headaches.

Bear in mind that recently it was discovered that printer/copier hard drives were being stolen because they contained information from documents that had been processed by them... and no one had thought to wipe them because, hey, its just a copier, right?

[BlairWitch749]

Indeed, this will be a security nightmare.



One? No. One million a year? Yes. Also, wiping is not considered sufficient for media that has been used to store data at Secret classification or above.

There's also the problem of accidental data destruction, not to mention an entire bureaucracy will need to be created to process the transfers.



Sensitive information doesn't just include Secret, Top Secret, etc. though - the IRS, for example, handles a huge amount of information (anything with social security numbers, etc.) that is generally considered sensitive.

Also, bear in mind that anyone involved in the destruction process needs a clearance.

The plan will certainly provide some benefits to the .gov, but it will also create some headaches.

Bear in mind that recently it was discovered that printer/copier hard drives were being stolen because they contained information from documents that had been processed by them... and no one had thought to wipe them because, hey, its just a copier, right?

The drives can be installed in removable trays for quick transfer/replacement; disposal would have to be organized and secure; probably an expensive process (conceeded with no issues); but given the savings with leasing; probably not an insurmountable obstacle

[Gridley]

The drives can be installed in removable trays for quick transfer/replacement; disposal would have to be organized and secure; probably an expensive process (conceeded with no issues); but given the savings with leasing; probably not an insurmountable obstacle

Certainly not insurmountable, no, but it isn't going to be all sunshine and rainbows either. :-/

[Shadow Knight]

reformatting/wiping a hard drive isn't a huge deal

Yeah you'd think so, but a lot of government hard drives never went through that. The easiest thing would be part of the lease would be the hard drives would be government property that has to be sent to a government collection center for destruction.

The only thing that might put a crimp in this would be some serious aggravation from the Defense Department (trust me I know how bad these guys trying to defend their turf can be), but if there is some wiggle room outside of standard network/desktop equipment it probably will not be too loud of a protest.

[BlairWitch749]

Yeah you'd think so, but a lot of government hard drives never went through that. The easiest thing would be part of the lease would be the hard drives would be government property that has to be sent to a government collection center for destruction.

The only thing that might put a crimp in this would be some serious aggravation from the Defense Department (trust me I know how bad these guys trying to defend their turf can be), but if there is some wiggle room outside of standard network/desktop equipment it probably will not be too loud of a protest.

dell's perview wouldn't include operations computers or shit like that; it would be more general administration at the pentagon ditto nsa cia etc

[Orville_third]

I think Ron Paul will vehemently resist something like this at HHS...

[BlairWitch749]

100 days that changed the face of America (Chapter 31 Part III) “There are many qualities that make a great leader. But having strong beliefs, being able to stick with them through popular and unpopular times, is the most important characteristic of a great leader.” - Rudy Guiliani

Washington DC January 20th 1997 (Victor Lewinsky is 18 weeks old)

Mayor of New York City Rudy Guiliani was an inspired choice for the position of Attorney General. Of Italian descent he had ruthlessly and aggressively cracked down on NYC's out of control mafia families as a US special prosecutor. In his short term as mayor crime and had been trending down significantly, the budget was balanced and Times Square was in the process of being transformed from a hooker infested den of drugs and weapons to a thriving commercial center and tourist trap.

Gramm had known him going back to the mid 1980's and liked him; his stances on gun control and abortion where a bit troubling to the core of the party, but his solid reputation and high profile outweighed this and saw him confirmed with some bipartisan support

http://www.anusha.com/giuliani.jpg
The 79th Attorney General

Rudy had several critical tasks to attend to even before Gramm took office; of which 2 became the most important

1. Make a committment to reorganize the justice department which had developed a shocking image of incompetence and failed leadership under Janet Reno and the Clinton administration

2. Figure out some way to handle Linda Tripp without drawing a huge media circus onto the new administration

http://www.hartwilliams.com/tripp1.jpg
Some kind of legal agreement had to be worked out on Linda Tripp

Prior to Rudy being sworn in, he reached out to Janet Reno suggesting that they should jointly negotiate with Tripp's attorney's to present a united front and a bipartisan effort. Reno vacilitated back and forth; the thought of dumping that problem on the new administration was tempting but at the same going through a trial with her would redig up a lot of bad press over and over again, probably killing the future political careers of anyone associated with the administration (Ms Reno herself included)

http://www.aim.org/wls/wp-content/themes/wls/photos/janetreno.jpg
Janet Reno agreed to cooperate with Rudy Guiliani in confronting Linda Tripp

The joint justice department negotiations went quickly and saved those involved from a massive political headache for the most part; Reno and her staff had Tripp dead to rights on leaking sensitive information to Matt Drudge and for tapping a phone inside the pentagon which was a serious breach of protocol. At the same time Reno and Guiliani where smart enough to not press their advantage too aggressively since taking Linda Tripp to trial could only go badly for all involved

1st Justice dept offer
Tripp resigns
Tripp surrenders government pension and all benefits
Tripp is forbidden to publish anything related to her illegal activities
Tripp is banned from all future employment by the federal government
Tripp is required to issue a public apology and admission of violation of her office for tapping pentagon phones and leaking to the drudge report
Tripp's security clearance is revoked
no trial, no jail; 1000 hours of community service and a fine of 250,000 dollars

Tripp legal team 1st counter offer
Tripp is fired (so she can collect unemployment)
Tripp retains benefits and pension
Tripp is not restricted in publishing anything
Tripp is banned from all future employment by the federal government
Tripp makes the apology in writing only
Tripp's security clearance is revoked
no trial, no jail no community service no fine

Justice dept 1st counter offer
Tripp resigns
Tripp surrenders benefits
Tripp is forbidden from publishing anything about her activities for 10 years
Tripp is banned from all future employment by the federal government
Tripp makes public apology in person
Tripp's security clearance is revoked
no trial, no jail, 730 hours of community service 250,000 dollar fine

Tripp legal team 2nd counter offer
Tripp resigns
Tripp surrenders benefits
Tripp is not restricted about publishing anything
Tripp is banned from future federal employment
Tripp makes public apology in person
Tripp's security clearance is revoked
no trial, no jail 250 hours community service 75,000 dollar fine payable over a period of 12 years

The 2nd counter offer ended up being what the justice department accepted albeit they tried to gain more concessions first; but at that point they where informed that anything more and Mrs Tripp would request a trial by jury and would begin exploratory evidence proceedings immediately

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/215000/images/_216261_linda_tripp.jpg
Linda Tripp was required to issue a public apology for violating the codes of her office

to be continued thoughts?

[historybuff]

Well, I'm sure it's not what a lot of people would've wanted but at least she's being punished.

[usertron2020]

The fine is irrelevant. The VRWC will take care of that. No one will be interested in reading anything she ever wrote anyway, as OTL. Tripp was never Civil Service, but rather a Bush appointee, so all the talk of "federal employment and loss of benefits is nonsense. As OTL, the only person who would ever hire Tripp is her (future) husband, so barriers against her employment and revoked security clearances are also meaningless. Tripp apologizing for anything is ASB. And there's nothing in the agreement indicating she can't take it back in her next Hannity interview even if an ASB did intervene.

[BlairWitch749]

The fine is irrelevant. The VRWC will take care of that. No one will be interested in reading anything she ever wrote anyway, as OTL. Tripp was never Civil Service, but rather a Bush appointee, so all the talk of "federal employment and loss of benefits is nonsense. As OTL, the only person who would ever hire Tripp is her (future) husband, so barriers against her employment and revoked security clearances are also meaningless. Tripp apologizing for anything is ASB. And there's nothing in the agreement indicating she can't take it back in her next Hannity interview even if an ASB did intervene.

Tripp worked for the pentagon before she was in legislative affairs as a political appointee for Bush Sr; she was an administrator for delta force amongst other things; so yes she was a civil servant (its just that she wasn't one at the time she worked in legislative affairs or pentagon public affairs); I'm not indicating this as a "harsh" punishment but a realistic idea of what the justice dept might get out of her in this scenario without the embarassment and horrific discovery process of a jury trial of linda trip

in an ideal world she would go to federal prison for 5 to 10; but in a rl ittl (i realize that is an oxymoron) she would get what amounts to a slap on the wrist

[sloreck]

enjoyed reading this - two facts one may have little bearing the other will be a big wakeup call for Tripp.

Jewish law holds that a child of a Jewish mother, even one who is illegitimate, is a Jew (no conversion etc needed). So by "law" Victor Lewinsky is Jewish. I certainly can't see Monica raising him Baptist to satisfy Bill!! Just an interesting twist.

Tripp has just confessed to several felonies, this is a fact even if her sentencing was light. The various "Son of Sam" laws prevent convicted felons from profiting from their crime, therefore any and all profits from any publications she might be planning will be fairly easily taken in toto by Lewinsky, who was the offended party. With her pit bull lawyer I would not be surprised to see them go after the money Drudge has given Tripp or has promised (a verbal contract). Of course, they can still sue for damages in addition to attaching Tripp's "criminal profits".

Monica may have been naive and foolish, but Tripp is a slimeball who led her on then illegally taped conversations & sold her out. If Tripp has a decent attorney they will tell her her "profits" need to be signed over and make a deal on other damages, cause in front of jury she will be crucified...and stripped of everything she owns.

[BlairWitch749]

enjoyed reading this - two facts one may have little bearing the other will be a big wakeup call for Tripp.

Jewish law holds that a child of a Jewish mother, even one who is illegitimate, is a Jew (no conversion etc needed). So by "law" Victor Lewinsky is Jewish. I certainly can't see Monica raising him Baptist to satisfy Bill!! Just an interesting twist.

Tripp has just confessed to several felonies, this is a fact even if her sentencing was light. The various "Son of Sam" laws prevent convicted felons from profiting from their crime, therefore any and all profits from any publications she might be planning will be fairly easily taken in toto by Lewinsky, who was the offended party. With her pit bull lawyer I would not be surprised to see them go after the money Drudge has given Tripp or has promised (a verbal contract). Of course, they can still sue for damages in addition to attaching Tripp's "criminal profits".

Monica may have been naive and foolish, but Tripp is a slimeball who led her on then illegally taped conversations & sold her out. If Tripp has a decent attorney they will tell her her "profits" need to be signed over and make a deal on other damages, cause in front of jury she will be crucified...and stripped of everything she owns.


The point on the religion is interesting; (I never considered it; then again the story is developing on a wider arc than I anticipated... I think I might go back and do chapter in between election night and inauguration day to settle some things with Monica, Victor and the Clinton's

I have no problem saying Tripp was a scumbag in the Lewinsky scandal; hell probably the second biggest douche in the situation behind Clinton himself

Lewinsky sueing Tripp might be problematic; Allred would certainly be all for it and would pursue a media assault of titanic proportions; but discovery and continued media attention might not be something Monica herself wants to go through or put her family through (she doesn't need money, the whole exercise would be a fuck you to Tripp which may or may not be worth it to Monica)

[usertron2020]

As douche bags go, ITTL, Clinton was in a class by himself (Gold medalist douche bag). Tripp gets the Silver. The VRWC (all of them) earned the Bronze.

[Antipater]

The VRWC (all of them) earned the Bronze.

Just who, exactly makes up the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" in 1996?

Fox News was just founded, and the Koch brothers are too busy making money at this point to dabble in politics. Who does that leave? Matt Drudge, Rush Limbaugh and Richard Mellon Scaife? And of those three, Drudge seems more like a hired gun, leaving just Limbaugh and Scaife to form a right wing dynamic duo.

[BlairWitch749]

Just who, exactly makes up the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" in 1996?

Fox News was just founded, and the Koch brothers are too busy making money at this point to dabble in politics. Who does that leave? Matt Drudge, Rush Limbaugh and Richard Mellon Scaife? And of those three, Drudge seems more like a hired gun, leaving just Limbaugh and Scaife to form a right wing dynamic duo.

I think he was referring to OTL

I would put NEWSWEEK in a tie for bronze because they sat on the story for purely political reasons which gave credit to FOX and the VRWC claim's that conventional media was biased and in the tank for the democrats which has now been a VRWC talking point for more than a decade

[usertron2020]

Just who, exactly makes up the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" in 1996?

Fox News was just founded, and the Koch brothers are too busy making money at this point to dabble in politics. Who does that leave? Matt Drudge, Rush Limbaugh and Richard Mellon Scaife? And of those three, Drudge seems more like a hired gun, leaving just Limbaugh and Scaife to form a right wing dynamic duo.

Not trying to start a flame war here, and I don't want to see this magnificent TL moved to CHAT, so I propose we continue this in PMs, OK? I will E-Mail you a starters guide just to BEGIN the list of active members already working fulltime by 1996.

[mrmandias]

Not trying to start a flame war here, and I don't want to see this magnificent TL moved to CHAT, so I propose we continue this in PMs, OK? I will E-Mail you a starters guide just to BEGIN the list of active members already working fulltime by 1996.

Please include me on the list. Thx.

[thekingsguard]

So far, President Gramm sounds awesome...

[usertron2020]

Just who, exactly makes up the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" in 1996?

Fox News was just founded, and the Koch brothers are too busy making money at this point to dabble in politics. Who does that leave? Matt Drudge, Rush Limbaugh and Richard Mellon Scaife? And of those three, Drudge seems more like a hired gun, leaving just Limbaugh and Scaife to form a right wing dynamic duo.

Antipater

I know I promised you a PM, and I just spent the last few hours writing it. When I sent it, I didn't get the auto copy I should have, only a highlighted (link?) with your Email address. When I clicked on it, I found a box to send you another message. Could you please let me know if you ever received the PM?

UT
Desperate

[usertron2020]

Please include me on the list. Thx.

That's up to Antipater. I seem to have lost the PM.:( I pray he got it. If so, maybe he can forward it to you?

[mrmandias]

That's up to Antipater. I seem to have lost the PM.:( I pray he got it. If so, maybe he can forward it to you?

Sorry, I meant on the list of folks involved with the VRWC. :)

[usertron2020]

Sorry, I meant on the list of folks involved with the VRWC. :)

I just forwarded it to you. It's a long post. Enjoy!:)

[NoOneFamous]

100 days that changed the face of America (Chapter 31 Part III) “There are many qualities that make a great leader. But having strong beliefs, being able to stick with them through popular and unpopular times, is the most important characteristic of a great leader.” - Rudy Guiliani

Washington DC January 20th 1997 (Victor Lewinsky is 18 weeks old)

Mayor of New York City Rudy Guiliani was an inspired choice for the position of Attorney General. Of Italian descent he had ruthlessly and aggressively cracked down on NYC's out of control mafia families as a US special prosecutor. In his short term as mayor crime and had been trending down significantly, the budget was balanced and Times Square was in the process of being transformed from a hooker infested den of drugs and weapons to a thriving commercial center and tourist trap.

Gramm had known him going back to the mid 1980's and liked him; his stances on gun control and abortion where a bit troubling to the core of the party, but his solid reputation and high profile outweighed this and saw him confirmed with some bipartisan support

http://www.anusha.com/giuliani.jpg
The 79th Attorney General

Rudy had several critical tasks to attend to even before Gramm took office; of which 2 became the most important

1. Make a committment to reorganize the justice department which had developed a shocking image of incompetence and failed leadership under Janet Reno and the Clinton administration

2. Figure out some way to handle Linda Tripp without drawing a huge media circus onto the new administration

http://www.hartwilliams.com/tripp1.jpg
Some kind of legal agreement had to be worked out on Linda Tripp

Prior to Rudy being sworn in, he reached out to Janet Reno suggesting that they should jointly negotiate with Tripp's attorney's to present a united front and a bipartisan effort. Reno vacilitated back and forth; the thought of dumping that problem on the new administration was tempting but at the same going through a trial with her would redig up a lot of bad press over and over again, probably killing the future political careers of anyone associated with the administration (Ms Reno herself included)

http://www.aim.org/wls/wp-content/themes/wls/photos/janetreno.jpg
Janet Reno agreed to cooperate with Rudy Guiliani in confronting Linda Tripp

The joint justice department negotiations went quickly and saved those involved from a massive political headache for the most part; Reno and her staff had Tripp dead to rights on leaking sensitive information to Matt Drudge and for tapping a phone inside the pentagon which was a serious breach of protocol. At the same time Reno and Guiliani where smart enough to not press their advantage too aggressively since taking Linda Tripp to trial could only go badly for all involved

1st Justice dept offer
Tripp resigns
Tripp surrenders government pension and all benefits
Tripp is forbidden to publish anything related to her illegal activities
Tripp is banned from all future employment by the federal government
Tripp is required to issue a public apology and admission of violation of her office for tapping pentagon phones and leaking to the drudge report
Tripp's security clearance is revoked
no trial, no jail; 1000 hours of community service and a fine of 250,000 dollars

Tripp legal team 1st counter offer
Tripp is fired (so she can collect unemployment)
Tripp retains benefits and pension
Tripp is not restricted in publishing anything
Tripp is banned from all future employment by the federal government
Tripp makes the apology in writing only
Tripp's security clearance is revoked
no trial, no jail no community service no fine

Justice dept 1st counter offer
Tripp resigns
Tripp surrenders benefits
Tripp is forbidden from publishing anything about her activities for 10 years
Tripp is banned from all future employment by the federal government
Tripp makes public apology in person
Tripp's security clearance is revoked
no trial, no jail, 730 hours of community service 250,000 dollar fine

Tripp legal team 2nd counter offer
Tripp resigns
Tripp surrenders benefits
Tripp is not restricted about publishing anything
Tripp is banned from future federal employment
Tripp makes public apology in person
Tripp's security clearance is revoked
no trial, no jail 250 hours community service 75,000 dollar fine payable over a period of 12 years

The 2nd counter offer ended up being what the justice department accepted albeit they tried to gain more concessions first; but at that point they where informed that anything more and Mrs Tripp would request a trial by jury and would begin exploratory evidence proceedings immediately

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/215000/images/_216261_linda_tripp.jpg
Linda Tripp was required to issue a public apology for violating the codes of her office

to be continued thoughts?

She's getting off too easily.

[BlairWitch749]

I just forwarded it to you. It's a long post. Enjoy!:)
can you send it to me too

noonefamous,

of course she belongs in a cell; but at the same time the government is getting something without the expense, circuis and embarassment of attempting to try her and failing due to during tainting from the VRWC

[NoOneFamous]

can you send it to me too

noonefamous,

of course she belongs in a cell; but at the same time the government is getting something without the expense, circuis and embarassment of attempting to try her and failing due to during tainting from the VRWC

The Pentagon brass is going to want her nailed to the wall.

[usertron2020]

The Pentagon brass is going to want her nailed to the wall.

They won't get it. And 97% of flag officers (generals and admirals) are registered republicans.

[usertron2020]

can you send it to me too

It'll be on the way shortly. I had to keep it as a PM. It was too recent as a political matter. I could have expected a warning:mad: from a moderator (and justly so) that this TL was not for CHAT.:(

Special Note: There is room there for misinterpretation of the PM. When I wrote there that you "ignored" the early Clinton scandals (Genifer Flowers, Whitewater, etc) I only meant that you did so deliberately, as they were not relevant to TTL.

EDIT: Sent you the second PM to Antipater. Just to be cute.:o:o:o

[Sir Chaos]

They won't get it. And 97% of flag officers (generals and admirals) are registered republicans.

Ever heard of Hal Bidlack (Democrat congressional candidate in ´08, don´t remember where, also a now retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force)? He once said he was one of three Democrats in the Air Force - "I´m in CONUS, the second is in Europe, the third is always airborne."

[usertron2020]

Ever heard of Hal Bidlack (Democrat congressional candidate in ´08, don´t remember where, also a now retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force)? He once said he was one of three Democrats in the Air Force - "I´m in CONUS, the second is in Europe, the third is always airborne."

And you'll note that the man you refer to was a lieutenant colonel, not a flag officer.:rolleyes:

[Gridley]

And you'll note that the man you refer to was a lieutenant colonel, not a flag officer.:rolleyes:

An oak leaf and a star are almost the same thing, right? (sigh)

[Sir Chaos]

And you'll note that the man you refer to was a lieutenant colonel, not a flag officer.:rolleyes:

Meaning that, at most, there are two Air Force flag officers who are Democrats.

[usertron2020]

An oak leaf and a star are almost the same thing, right? (sigh)

Only in your dreams, sir.:)

[GeoffM]

They won't get it. And 97% of flag officers (generals and admirals) are registered republicans.

Source, please?

[BlairWitch749]

Love at second sight (Out of order chapter and tangent demanded by Mrs BW)“I think with our problems with hopelessness and cynicism that [the solution] ultimately has to come from the young people themselves. We've got to realize we are the future and we make of our future what we make of it, and ultimately we have to do it for ourselves.” - Chelsea Clinton
Saturday November 23rd 1996 The White House, Washington DC (Victor Lewinsky is 10 weeks old)

Bill Clinton was now a lame duck awaiting his replacement by Phil Gramm. Regardless of the failure, the end of the election cycle offered a desperately needed release of stress; but today would certainly be interesting. Jack Quinn had arranged with Gloria Allred for the outgoing President to have visitation rights with his son, and with the high pace of the campaign, today was the first time that it was possible for him to come over and for the president to make time for him.

Monica would bring Victor over at 11am and return to pick him up at 5. The president's private secretary had purchased and laid out some toys and baby activity centers in the oval office for Victor to play with. She had also cleared out the President's schedule as much as possible so that he would have only a minimal amount of transition documents to go through, and she and other staff members would be in the office throughout the day to keep the president's hands free if needed.

As the minutes ticked past 1030, Bill for one of the few times in his adult life was extremely nervous, the election, and Hillary leaving him and filing for divorce was extremely humbling; it made him more introspective and aware of his human flaws than he had ever been. This would be his first time with his son, and it brought out a lot of emotion that he didn't expect. His and Hillary's relationship had been cool for a long time, and after Chelsea was born, she never showed interested or mentioned the idea of wanting to have more children; in turn Bill had never brought the idea up perhaps in not wanting to have a frank discussion about the fragility of their relationship, but distanced in a short way now, the thought of a son resonated in his heart in a way he couldn't quite appreciate at first but continued to grow. He was nervous though, even though he had held hundreds of babies on campaign trails, it had been more than a decade since he seriously had to take care of one, even for a short time...

absorbed in his thoughts, he was startled when the intercom buzzed

Mr. President, Monica Lewinsky here to drop off Victor

waa, oh ok yea send them in rose, and you can come in to to help me get him settled

for the first time since Victor was born, Monica and the President saw each other, she cradled Victor in one arm and held a baby bag in another

She surveyed the room, seeing the different toys laid out for him and that Bill's desk was almost empty and felt relieved, it seemed they where ready for him. Bill looked happy, that was good she thought, she really wanted Bill to be an active part of Victor's life to the degree possible; hopefully he wasn't just putting on a brave face

Monica put the bag down next to a play yard that had been set up for Victor for naps and brought her son to meet his father for the first time.

Bill's palms sweated, it was the SAT's or the first time all over again. Butterflies twitched in his stomach as Monica handed Victor over to him saying Victor this is your daddy.

Bill examined his son's face; he was a beautiful kid he thought, Victor smiled around his pacifier waving his hands and catching a fist full of Bill's tie which he promptly began to tug on in an effort to get it into his mouth for a taste. Monica quickly darted in to remove the tie from his hands but Bill soundlessly blocked her with his free hand

It's ok Monica, I have him don't worry

Oh allright, well it looks like you have everything you need here plus help and you can call me if you want me to come pick him up earlier

I said don't worry Victor and I are going to have a good time; Bill then fluttered the silk tie along Victor's face which tickled his nose and drew some giggles; right big guy?

Ok, well his bottles are in the bag with a couple of toys he likes and an extra pacifier in case he spits that one on the floor. I wrote down his feeding schedule for you; it's not in stone, if he demands food earlier just let him have it, I think he might be in a growth spurt right now

Good, I'll look that all out once he gets settled in, We will be allright Monica, go, go to the salon or something I'm sure you haven't had a day to yourself in a while; we will see you later... say bye to your mom Victor; Monica allowed Victor to wrap his hand around her finger, kissed him on the forehead and said goodbye

Hours passed that felt like minutes to the President when Monica was ushered back in to the office. Rose sat at his desk drawing up paperwork and the president sat on a couch with Victor propped up on a pillow on his lap staring intently at a popup book with different animals as Bill read to him and pointed to the objects the words described.

Monica noticed immediately that Bill was no longer in his charcoal suit and tie combo but instead was in a grey t shirt and jeans; she had never seen him that way before; she had to admit, he looked good

Oh hey your mom's back to take you home Victor; Victor smiled seeing his mother

So how did you guys do?

We had a great time, we had lunch, read stories played with Victor's talking Giraffe; it was a good day... he took a nice nap in his play yard so I could make some phone calls.

That sounds fun, I see you changed; Victor didn't spit up on you did he?

No, he ate really well; I just couldn't play on the floor with him in a tie so I changed, he was a champ 100% today

That's great I'm happy the two of you got to know each other and spend some time together. Bill handed Victor back to Monica... say goodbye to your dad Victor; he didn't respond because his eyes had closed in a deep sleep; his parents let out a small mutual aww as Monica bundled him in to his car seat and the President said good bye to him.

Monica carried him out saying thank you and saying that she would bring him again next Saturday if Bill's scheduled allowed it.

The door closed and Bill was alone, his eyes welled up and tear flowed down his face... his schedule would allow it, he would make sure of it...

to be continued...

[NoOneFamous]

They won't get it. And 97% of flag officers (generals and admirals) are registered republicans.

naturally you can back that up.

Republican, Democrat, whatever; they are going to want to prevent others from doing this again, which means they will want Tripp to be made an example of.

[BlairWitch749]

naturally you can back that up.

Republican, Democrat, whatever; they are going to want to prevent others from doing this again, which means they will want Tripp to be made an example of.

The management at the pentagon's desire to get even with Tripp is washed out by the fact that the justice department has no chance of getting 12 people on a jury to convict her when she will have the complete and unconditional backing of the VRWC

[Mr. Stubacca]

Love at second sight (Out of order chapter and tangent demanded by Mrs BW)“
Monica carried him out saying thank you and saying that she would bring him again next Saturday if Bill's scheduled allowed it.

The door closed and Bill was alone, his eyes welled up and tear flowed down his face... his schedule would allow it, he would make sure of it...

to be continued...


Ah, I smell a second marriage and a run again in 2004:D

[Tyg]

Ah, I smell a second marriage and a run again in 2004:D

Facing against an up-and-coming Senator Rodham in the primaries, no doubt. :p

It's good that we see how BC is still human in all of this.

[usertron2020]

naturally you can back that up.

I confess that was from a poll conducted by US New and World Report quite some years ago. The poll was anonymous.

[usertron2020]

Facing against an up-and-coming Senator Rodham in the primaries, no doubt. :p

It's good that we see how BC is still human in all of this.

Clinton is a political dead duck. President Gramm would have had to have led the US into a Second Great Depression for him to have any prospects for a second run.

[BlairWitch749]

Ah, I smell a second marriage and a run again in 2004:D

gah, silly mrs bw tangent :p

[Plumber]

gah, silly mrs bw tangent :p
Nah man, it's a neato idea. I doubt Bill would win, but if he marries Monica, I could see him running against Hillary in the primaries :D (and losing)

[NoOneFamous]

You keep forgetting, what's to stop an enemy of the GOP from doing it to a Republican President?

[usertron2020]

You keep forgetting, what's to stop an enemy of the GOP from doing it to a Republican President?

Any prospective "President Newt" would never survive the GOP presidential primary process. As W proved in the 2000 South Carolina primary, the Republicans are far better at eating their own young than the Democrats are at attacking said same children.:mad: By the time the GOP candidates are finished tearing each other to pieces, there is usually nothing left for the Democrats to pick over. We've already seen it this year, with GOP "family values" groups attacking Mitt Romney for having a polygamous great-grandfather. As if any Mormon of Romney's age isn't in that position.

AFAIK, the last GOP in office President to have this problem was Warren G. Harding. And he had a lot bigger problems (Tea Pot Dome) than just the ladies. GOP Presidents have generally had a reputation for sexlessness. I.E., Coolidge, Hoover, Eisenhower*, Nixon, Reagan, Bush I*, Bush II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
*-Their piccadilloes came out after their presidencies (and in Ike's case, after his death).

[BlairWitch749]

You keep forgetting, what's to stop an enemy of the GOP from doing it to a Republican President?

the gop president not knocking up a 22 year old intern:confused:

[usertron2020]

the gop president not knocking up a 22 year old intern:confused:

That too.:rolleyes: Of course, if the internet, George Soros, and MSNBC had been around in 1922...:eek:

[Uxi]

Pretty good thread. I always liked Phil Gramm far far more than Dole in 96. Dole was from that 'moderate' wing that I despised and much like McCain in 08 unable to get real enthusiasm from the conservative wing, but simply the lesser of evils compared to the Democrat nominee in each case.

[usertron2020]

Sorry, I meant on the list of folks involved with the VRWC. :)

It took me a week to get the joke.:o And a joke it is, as rule numero uno followed by all members of the VRWC(tm) is "There IS no VRWC! That's just a lie told by the infamous Feminazi/lesbo/transsexual/powermad/would-be dictator/drug dealing/embezzling/thieving/whorish (Vince Foster)/murdering (Vince Foster, again)/files-hiding/state trooper-disrespecting/tax-cheating/commie/islamo/fascist/Anti-Christ Hillary Clinton!":mad:

[BlairWitch749]

It took me a week to get the joke.:o And a joke it is, as rule numero uno followed by all members of the VRWC(tm) is "There IS no VRWC! That's just a lie told by the infamous Feminazi/lesbo/transexual/powermad/would-be dictator/drug dealing/embezzling/thieving/whorish (Vince Foster)/murdering (Vince Foster, again)/files-hiding/state trooper-disrespecting/tax-cheating/commie/islamo/fascist/Anti-Christ Hillary Clinton!":mad:

Well Hillary was wrong in one part of her label; the conspiracy part (conspiracy implying organization) to be more accurate it would be vast loosely associated with Similar goals right wing who are only partially justified in the complete character assassination of Bill Clinton (or LAWSGRWWAOPJITCCAOBC :D)

[lord caedus]

Well Hillary was wrong in one part of her label; the conspiracy part (conspiracy implying organization) to be more accurate it would be vast loosely associated with Similar goals right wing who are only partially justified in the complete character assassination of Bill Clinton (or LAWSGRWWAOPJITCCAOBC :D)

That has got to be the longest acronym I've ever seen. You should get some kind of award for that. :D:p

[usertron2020]

Well Hillary was wrong in one part of her label; the conspiracy part (conspiracy implying organization) to be more accurate it would be vast loosely associated with Similar goals right wing who are only partially justified in the complete character assassination of Bill Clinton (or LAWSGRWWAOPJITCCAOBC :D)

ITTL, utterly. OTL, only for Bill. But nothing justified what they did to Hill. Every single so-called scandal generated against her exposed (By Kenneth Starr!) in the end as RW smoke-and-mirrors.

I agree with you BW in that taken as a whole, there was no Universal VRWC. But Kenneth Starr (OIC), Larry Klayman (Judicial Watch), and the Elves [John Bolton (Head Elf), Anne Coulter (Deputy Elf), and about 8-12 others] very much were organized. They only would liaison with each other from time to time as needed. The many others (many over a period of time, not all at once) involved were, as you say, loose associates or big league $$$ men. I think they might well have taken Clinton down if they hadn't been so motivated by personal hatred to nail Hillary too (or even instead!:rolleyes:). It was what they did to Hillary (pre-lab results) that got me feeling sorry for them at the time. I should have known better. I was a Nixon Loyalist too.:o It took his resignation to open my eyes.:(:mad:

[BlairWitch749]

Love at second sight (Out of order tangent demanded by Mrs BW) - “Are you doing what you're doing today because you want to do it, or because it's what you were doing yesterday?” - Phil McGraw

Washtington DC November 30th 1996 (Victor Lewinsky is 11 weeks old)

Outgoing president Bill Clinton's second visit with his son had gone as well as the first and he was starting to develop a real bond with Victor.

The first two meetings had been arranged between Jack Quinn and Gloria Allred. Monica received a call from her lawyer on the following Monday morning after bringing Victor home from the White House

Gloria: (after some small talk about how Monica was feeling and how Victor was progressing) I got a call today from Jack Quinn. The president would like to be able to call you directly to discuss Victor and make arrangements for his visits going forward
Monica: Wow that's a big step that I wasn't expecting; what do you think I should do
Gloria: I'll do whatever you want and keep handeling things if that is your wish; but honestly; he is only going to be in that office another 2 months and he is going to be Victor's father forever, it would probably be better for everyone if the two of you have open lines of communication; and this seems like a good sign hun, sounds like he wants to be actively involved
Monica: That makes a lot of sense... I don't really want him to have to call his lawyer to call you to call me if he needs to take Victor to the doctor or is going to miss a visit... You can tell them that I said it's ok.

4 days later over the phone)

Monica: Bill I want to talk to you about Saturday
Bill: We are still on, I just need Victor to come over at 1 instead of 11 like we talked about before
Monica: No not that, listen you know with everything that's been going on well I haven't gotten to do certain things I really want to do
Bill: What do you mean?
Monica: Well you know I'm Jewish; I didn't have a briss or anything, but I really want to have a baby naming ceremony and a little party with a couple of my friends this Saturday, my mom is being very insistant about it, it'll be in the clubhouse of my mom's condo development; it would mean a lot to me if you could come and be there for him
Bill: Just tell me when and I'll be there
Monica: Oh that's so great, thank you Bill, I really mean it... do you want to bring anybody, I'm still frantically doing a guest list
Bill: You said it's going to be a small affair, just put me and maybe one more setting I have to figure some stuff out with that, and let me know if you need any help with the money
Monica: It's fine Bill my mom is going to pay for it, I just want you to come


40 minutes later on the phone

Bill: Hi chelsea how are you doing sweetheart
Chelsea: I'm ok dad
Bill: How's your mom
Chelsea: Ok I guess, mad at you, sad sometimes, you know
Bill: I understand; she's right to be mad at me
Chelsea: (Her father's new humility and introspectiveness resonating with her; and as she matured through the situation, she began to see the flaws that ran heavily both ways in their relationship)...Dad, I don't want to be in the middle or talk about that ok? Did you want to talk to her or ...
Bill: No I really wanted to talk to you Chelsea... listen... umm Monica is going to have a Jewish baby naming ceremony for Victor; it's not a big deal, it'll be like 20 people and you don't have to stay for the entire thing, but it would mean a lot to me if you could come for a little bit and meet your brother
Chelsea:....
Bill: Are you there Chelsea?
Chelsea: Yea I'm just thinking, I don't want mom to get pissed at me and I don't know about all of this
Bill: Look your mom can be mad at me, you can be mad at me for what I did, I deserve it and I'll work as hard as I can to earn your trust Chelsea but don't take that out on Victor, no matter what happened he is your brother and I want you to be a part of his life
Chelsea:... ok... for Victor I'll come but you need to give me some time to get used to all of this
Bill: Thank you sweetheart, look it won't be easy for anyone, but he deserves to have his family be a part of his life and put everything aside for him; I'll send a car to pick you up at 10 on Saturday, Monica says its "casual but elegent" whatever that means

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/08-monica-lewinsky-photo-121009-lg-67556393.jpg
Monica invited president Clinton to Victor's baby naming ceremony

http://cdn.ripple6.com/d100d2ed-1bf5-4baa-afb2-8bada1f69d92-800_533.jpg
Victor Lewinsky in People magazine just before his baby naming ceremony (People's arrangement with Monica allowed him to be photo'ed once every three months for his first year)

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01245/Chelsea-Clinton_1245595i.jpg
Chelsea though angry with her father for his betrayal came around to understand that her parent's marriage had failed a long time before and that it was the right thing to do to be involved in her half brother's life

[historybuff]

Awww. Sweet. Good for Chelsea.

[NoOneFamous]

Chelsea will be a good big sister

[usertron2020]

Where...where...where is my Alka-Seltzer?:p:p

[Coiler]

This is a great timeline.

One question is, would Hillary still run for/win the New York Senate race? She's a losing, disgraced ex-first lady out of office for some time, rather than a sitting first lady.

[usertron2020]

This is a great timeline.

One question is, would Hillary still run for/win the New York Senate race? She's a losing, disgraced ex-first lady out of office for some time, rather than a sitting first lady.

That would depend to a large degree on the Senior Senator from the state of New York, Patrick Moynihan, who endorsed her taking his retiring seat, and helped to throw the full weight of New York State Democratic politics to aid her bid.*sounds of Frank Sinatra singing "If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere..."*:D I imagine politicians use her campaign on how to win elections as an outsider.

Of course, Rudi Guiliani dropping out due to illness was a big help. Having the Proto-Tea Party Man Rick Lazio taking Rudi's place was a HUGE help. It totally defused the whole "carpet-bagger" issue, since Rick Lazio was the congressman representing Long Island. Every True New Yorker knows full well that Long Island isn't even really a part of New York State. It's actually in Connecticut.;)

I watched the first debate betweem them on TV. When he suddenly rushed over to her podium (with an anti-tax pledge for her to sign) I thought the Secret Service was going to charge up on stage and take him out!:eek::p

BTW? The disgrace isn't hers.:)

The election cycles as framed for 1994-1996-1998 still favor the GOP, as it is enjoying the death throes of the New Deal, in terms of the old working class FDR Democrats quite literally dying off by this time. The 1998 Election will represent the last pre-Gingrich Revolution Class (1992) of Senate Democrats trying to defend their seats. If I can calculate this right, this means the Dems who were (re-)elected with Clinton in 1992 will still be representing the majority of Senators running for re-election, 18 Democrats to 16 Republicans.

However, the dynamics for TTL are markedly different than OTL. In 1998 OTL the results were a wash, with three seats each being traded between the two parties. BW seems to have some pretty strong opinions about GOP economics, so I guess things will go swimmingly for the next eight years.:rolleyes: But if he starts handwaving off-year electoral politics...:mad:

As I'm writing this, I just got hit by a brainstorm.

OTL, Hillary ran in 2000 against the above opponents. Why not start her listening tour two years early?:D After all, she would be looking at challenging the hugely (by this time) unpopular (in New York State) Junior Senator from the State of New York Alphonse D'Amato, rather than an open seat in four years. If Moynihan can convince Chuck Schumer to stand aside for two years (waiting for Moynihan's retirement and endorsement), the dogs can be unleashed on a man who spent two years, as Senate Banking Chairman, mercilessly impoverishing West Wing employees with legal costs, barraging them with an endless scourge of Whitewater subpoenas.

In the first issue of Newsweek after the Gingrich Revolution, their "Conventional Wisdom" column had an entry for D'Amato. "Senator Alphonse D'Amato as Senate Banking Chairman? All Whitewater, all the time." All this proved true. For two years a man who had earned a good reputation for fourteen years as a legislator who looked out for his constituents forgot that New York State even existed while he acted as the Senior Senator from the State of the VRWC(tm). OTL, in 1998, he went down in the biggest landslide of the election for any losing Senate incumbent!:D:p (Margin of defeat 10.5%)

Frankly, I can't think of anything better than Hillary being the one to show Al D'Amato the door.

and it would make her a six year veteran in 2004...:o

[BlairWitch749]

Hillary is going to go into politics, but she is going to do so along a different arc and in a different state than otl (as would naturally happen with Bill getting the boot in 1996 and a divorce)

Userton, I wouldn't call Lazio a bagger (represented my district for a while)... he is more the country club, elitest establishment type (more romney than paladino)

I haven't come close to game planning 1998 yet; but you are correct that the dems have more seats up... as you would know and admit, 1997 and 1998 where excellent years for the USA; with rapidly increasing GDP, high levels of employment and a white hot stock market... now that might just end up letting the incumbants ride home free (and it mostly did in otl) but its not impossible that the republicans in a race or two can try take credit for the growth and parlay that into a pickup

[Coiler]

now that might just end up letting the incumbants ride home free (and it mostly did in otl) but its not impossible that the republicans in a race or two can try take credit for the growth and parlay that into a pickup

My view: +3 R net gain.

R pickups:
NV, WI, SC, OH, KY
(All close races OTL, and some races are swung with social conservatives still annoyed from the Clinton scandal)

D pickups:
NY, IN

(Bayh as governor was popular enough to be shielded from the scandal, and he won by a large enough margin IOTL that losing a few percentage points won't make that much of a difference. For D'Amato, he's a weak target, and Democratic New Yorkers will be fired up facing Republican dominance).

In Illinois, Carol Moseley-Braun hangs on to a victory because Democrats don't want to let a single Republican in, and that overcomes personal dislikes. The economy and lack of issues also makes John Edwards' bid for the Senate in vain.

Too many? Not enough? What do you think?

[Coiler]

1998 election possibilities, continued:

As for the House of Representatives, it'll be a low-key, single digit shift. You might lose a few seats that were held up/voted in by Gramm's coattails that would normally go Democratic, but that may be compensated by a popular administration voting in more. I'll say +4 GOP net gain in the House.

[usertron2020]

My view: +3 R net gain.

R pickups:
NV, WI, SC, OH, KY
(All close races OTL, and some races are swung with social conservatives still annoyed from the Clinton scandal)

D pickups:
NY, IN

(Bayh as governor was popular enough to be shielded from the scandal, and he won by a large enough margin IOTL that losing a few percentage points won't make that much of a difference. For D'Amato, he's a weak target, and Democratic New Yorkers will be fired up facing Republican dominance).

In Illinois, Carol Moseley-Braun hangs on to a victory because Democrats don't want to let a single Republican in, and that overcomes personal dislikes. The economy and lack of issues also makes John Edwards' bid for the Senate in vain.

Too many? Not enough? What do you think?

Lauch Faircloth gets re-elected??:rolleyes::confused: Pass the vodka, please.

TTL involves a brief explosion of outrage against the immorality of a MAN, not a party. Once the story blows over, the Democrats and more than a few Independents are going to realize that they let themselves be swayed by the Mother of All October Surprises.:mad: NOT THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WILL BLAMED FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 1996 ELECTION.

But if you think there will be carry over from Monicagate two years later... The "social-conservatives" you invoke will never one day in their lives vote Democratic anyways. Good times mean those happy with circumstances as they are will be more likely to be out fishing on Election Day, while those AGAINST the incumbent party will hit the polls in strength.

A 64 seat GOP Senate? :rolleyes:x64. I'm glad Hendryk isn't following this TL.:eek: The stronger the dominance of one party, the stronger the backlash by the other. And the GOP's dominance ITTL is overwhelming to say the least. ITTL, you are looking at essentially a wash, with pickups for the Dems in three states. Oops! Gotta go! Be right back...

EDIT: Make that the Dems take Indiana, New York, and North Carolina (OTL). And ITTL hold Kentucky and Illinois that were lost OTL. The GOP takes Ohio (OTL).

NET GAIN for Democrats +4.

57-43 favor GOP controlled Senate

EDIT 2: The GOP House dominance pre-2000 Census and pre-911 is way too overblown. Expect a correction of 20-30 seats for the Dems. Of course, I'm not the God of this Universe.:p

Not bad for an off-year. Anybody calculating for the party of incumbency to gain seats is engaging in wishful thinking.

[Vosem]

Hey, BlairWitch. I began reading this timeline, and it's pretty good.

After reading your 'details' on the election of 1996, I decided to try and 'decode' it; e.g., figure out where exactly those 8 Republican Senate pickups and 25 House pickups were.

If you give every race a universal swing of 9 percentage points to the Republican, the result is that the Republicans pick up 5 extra Senate seats and also nullify 1 Democratic pickup, that is, the following --

Georgia: Guy Millner defeats Max Cleland
Iowa: Jim Ross Lightfoot defeats Tom Harkin
Louisiana: Woody Jenkins defeats Mary Landrieu
Massachusetts: William Weld defeats John Kerry
Montana: Dennis Rehberg defeats Max Baucus
South Dakota: Larry Pressler defeats Tim Johnson

Additionally, I don't think you ever mentioned who replaced Gramm in the Senate -- Representative Joe Barton came in second among Republicans after Bentsen resigned, and I think it'd be reasonable if he succeeded Gramm in '96.

Combining this with the OTL Republican pickups gets a pickup of 8 seats. Coincidentally, this self-same universal 9-point swing garners Republicans an extra 35 House seats; combined with the OTL Democratic 9-seat pickup, this means that the Republicans picked up 26 seats; here are these extra 35 seats (keep in mind, we are starting from a 9-seat-Democratic-pickup baseline):

Arkansas 1: Warren Dupwe defeats Marion Berry
Arkansas 2: Bud Cummins defeats Ray Thornton
California 10: Bill Baker defeats Ellen Tauscher
California 22: Andrea Seastrand defeats Walter Capps
California 24: Rich Sybert defeats Brad Sherman
California 36: Susan Brooks defeats Jane Harman
California 42: Linda Wilde defeats George Brown
California 46: Bob Dornan defeats Loretta Sanchez
Connecticut 2: Edward Munster defeats Sam Gejdenson
Connecticut 5: Gary Franks defeats Jim Maloney
Georgia 2: Darrel Ealum defeats Sanford Bishop
Hawaii 1: Orson Swindle defeats Neil Abercrombie
Illinois 17: Mark Baker defeats Lane Evans
Indiana 10: Virginia Blankenbaker defeats Julia Carson
Iowa 3: Mike Mahaffey defeats Leonard Boswell
Louisiana 7: Hunter Lundy defeats Chris John
Massachusetts 1: Jane Swift defeats John Olver
Massachusetts 3: Peter Blute defeats Jim McGovern
Massachusetts 6: Peter Torkildsen defeats John F. Tierney
New Jersey 8: Bill Martini defeats Bill Pascrell
North Carolina 2: David Funderburk defeats Bob Etheridge
North Carolina 7: Bill Caster defeats Mike McIntyre
Ohio 6: Frank Cremeans defeats Ted Strickland
Ohio 10: Martin Hoke defeats Dennis Kucinich
Oregon 1: Bill Witt defeats Elizabeth Furse
Oregon 5: Jim Bunn defeats Darlene Hooley
Pennsylvania 20: Mike McCormick defeats Frank Mascara
South Carolina 5: Larry Bigham defeats John Spratt
Texas 1: Ed Merritt defeats Max Sandlin
Texas 2: Brian Babin defeats Jim Turner
Texas 9: Steve Stockman defeats Nick Lampson
Texas 17: Rudy Izzard defeats Charles Stenholm
Washington 9: Randy Tate defeats Adam Smith
Wisconsin 3: James Harsdorf defeats Ron Kind
Wisconsin 8: David Prosser, Jr. defeats Jay Johnson

I never knew David Prosser ran for Congress as a Republican before becoming a judge. He always struck me as more of the neutral type:p

Lastly, if Clinton was really reduced to 37%, I doubt he would win anything more than DC. (Mondale got 41%, a noticeably better percentage, and just barely won his strongly Democratic home state). Let's assume that the 9-percentage setback congressional Democrats faced is doubled for Clinton, so that he is universally set back 18 percentage points:

http://uselectionatlas.org/TOOLS/genusmap.php?year=1996&ev_c=0&pv_p=0&ev_p=1&AL=2;9;5&AK=2;3;5&AZ=2;8;4&AR=2;6;5&CA=2;54;5&CO=2;8;4&CT=1;8;5&DE=2;3;5&DC=1;3;8&FL=2;25;4&GA=2;13;4&HI=1;4;5&ID=2;4;5&IL=2;22;5&IN=2;12;4&IA=2;7;5&KS=2;6;5&KY=2;8;4&LA=2;9;5&MD=2;10;5&MA=1;12;6&MI=2;18;5&MN=2;10;5&MS=2;7;4&MO=2;11;4&MT=2;3;4&NV=2;4;4&NH=2;4;4&NJ=2;15;5&NM=2;5;4&NY=1;33;5&NC=2;14;4&ND=2;3;4&OH=2;21;4&OK=2;8;4&OR=2;7;4&PA=2;23;4&RI=1;4;5&SC=2;8;4&SD=2;3;4&TN=2;11;4&TX=2;32;4&UT=2;5;5&VT=1;3;5&VA=2;13;4&WA=2;11;4&WV=2;5;5&WI=2;11;4&WY=2;3;4&ME=1;2;5&ME1=1;1;5&ME2=1;1;5&NE=2;2;5&NE1=2;1;4&NE2=2;1;5&NE3=2;1;5

Gramm wins the election, 467-71. To replace Spence Abraham, how about then-state Senate Majority Leader Dick Posthumus (who was apparently a close political ally of Governor John Engler?)

Then, John McCain and Mitch McConnell are appointed to the Cabinet by President Gramm, leaving two more open Senate seats. Although she's the obvious pick, somehow I don't think Symington would nominate Hull to McCain's Senate seat (she and McCain had a rivalry, and I think McCain would make sure someone other than Hull would be appointed). So, how about rising star Representative Matt Salmon for McCain's Senate seat?

The Governor of Kentucky at the time was Democrat Paul Patton. Patton wanted to be a Senator himself, but he strikes me as being more politically astute than to nominate himself. Rep. Scotty Baesler wanted a Senate seat, and I don't see why Patton wouldn't nominate him.

Lastly, the Indiana gubernatorial election of 1996 was narrow enough that 8 percentage points are enough to give the victory to Republican nominee Stephen Goldsmith over OTL Democratic victor Frank O'Bannon.

And...I'll have to keep reading to have an opinion on the 1998 elections.

[BlairWitch749]

very interesting analysis vosem... the house and senate 1996 seems to be in line with what rb and i came up with (give or take a seat or two)

on the EV's we came to the conclusion that the stalwart states like CA, IL and NY would still go dem albeit at reduced margins, and that the states that went republican went so at an agressive margin due to turnout being whipped up in conservative circles to destroy clinton, and dems staying home

kerry would be the chief example; clinton winning the state by a reduced margin; and the down ticket effect of gramm doing a bit better than dole, and catholic democrats being pissed off enough to stay home and leave him to rot

in a following chapter i was going to delve into the replacement of gramm, abraham, mccain and mcconnel in the senate; ill take your suggestions into account


spoiler alert (to focus speculation better) hillary will enter politics, and she will fill a vacancy created by a gramm cabinet pick; and she will actually not look like a blatant carpet bagger

[Tank Cdr]

As a general rule I do not like reading modern political stories because I am very non-partisan. I vote for whoever I think can do a better job. I do not care what letter they have after their name. Also, if I do not know a candidate then I do not cast a vote at all. I think that partisan politics is a big part of the problems we face today. There is no way that one party is 100% right 100% of the time.

That being said, I read the story just because I think that BW is probably the best writer on AH.com. I was not disappointed, it was a very good story. It also comes with the added bonus of the replies of all the wingnuts (left and right). I could picture the left wingnuts having some troubles reading the story through their steady stream of tears. I could also picture the right wingnuts reading the story and using it's content for a little self-pleasure. The bottom line is that this is another great story by the master storyteller Blair Witch 749!

DISCLAIMER: I hope that no wingnuts were offended by the preceding paragraph! I just did it for a few laughs! If you were offended grow a little thicker skin!:D

[BlairWitch749]

Lauch Faircloth gets re-elected??:rolleyes::confused: Pass the vodka, please.

TTL involves a brief explosion of outrage against the immorality of a MAN, not a party. Once the story blows over, the Democrats and more than a few Independents are going to realize that they let themselves be swayed by the Mother of All October Surprises.:mad: NOT THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WILL BLAMED FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 1996 ELECTION.

But if you think there will be carry over from Monicagate two years later... The "social-conservatives" you invoke will never one day in their lives vote Democratic anyways. Good times mean those happy with circumstances as they are will be more likely to be out fishing on Election Day, while those AGAINST the incumbent party will hit the polls in strength.

A 64 seat GOP Senate? :rolleyes:x64. I'm glad Hendryk isn't following this TL.:eek: The stronger the dominance of one party, the stronger the backlash by the other. And the GOP's dominance ITTL is overwhelming to say the least. ITTL, you are looking at essentially a wash, with pickups for the Dems in three states. Oops! Gotta go! Be right back...

EDIT: Make that the Dems take Indiana, New York, and North Carolina (OTL). And ITTL hold Kentucky and Illinois that were lost OTL. The GOP takes Ohio (OTL).

NET GAIN for Democrats +4.

57-43 favor GOP controlled Senate

EDIT 2: The GOP House dominance pre-2000 Census and pre-911 is way too overblown. Expect a correction of 20-30 seats for the Dems. Of course, I'm not the God of this Universe.:p

Not bad for an off-year. Anybody calculating for the party of incumbency to gain seats is engaging in wishful thinking.


the congressional surge in 1996 rb and i created is as you described; high turnout of angry social conservatives (especially independent ones) and pissed off moderate dems, staying home

even if Gramm does an excellent job, it would be extremely difficult to build on back to back land slides in 1994 and 1996 (the train at that point is already full speed ahead; even Rush and Hannity would get a little complacent; the positive he would have going in the senate is that the dems would still be defending more seats; and with the strong ecomic tail winds the repub incumbants would have a decent chance of holding on

Gramm's goal at the midterm (as i see it; although haven't outlined out that far) would probably be to hold even or maybe surrender 1-3 senate seats and 10-15 house seats max

now if he can do that is also dependent on dem rebuilding efforts; getting ass stomped in back to back elections by decisive margins is the kind of thing that can really turn the party upside down and change how it operates (look at what the repubs went through after their drubbings in 06 and 08)

[usertron2020]

That being said, I read the story just because I think that BW is probably the best writer on AH.com. I was not disappointed, it was a very good story. It also comes with the added bonus of the replies of all the wingnuts (left and right). I could picture the left wingnuts having some troubles reading the story through their steady stream of tears. I could also picture the right wingnuts reading the story and using it's content for a little self-pleasure.* The bottom line is that this is another great story by the master storyteller Blair Witch 749!

DISCLAIMER: I hope that no wingnuts were offended by the preceding paragraph! I just did it for a few laughs! If you were offended grow a little thicker skin!:D

Tank Cdr

I agree with you about BlairWitch749's masterful writing skills.:)

That said, are you the writer who wrote the U-Boat ISOT story? Because if you are... Your self-description would imply you are an Independent. TC, if you are an Independent I am Gary Trudeau's Evil Twin Skippy.:rolleyes::D

*-A LITTLE self-pleasure!? I wonder how many readers have gone blind on that kind of self-pleasure!;)

[Tyg]

now if he can do that is also dependent on dem rebuilding efforts; getting ass stomped in back to back elections by decisive margins is the kind of thing that can really turn the party upside down and change how it operates (look at what the repubs went through after their drubbings in 06 and 08)

That's pretty critical here. ITTL, the last President of Democratic affiliation that won two elections in a row was... FDR. Republicans in general have dominated Washington since Nixon's inauguration, and conservative ones particularly have been largely setting the agenda since 1981.

Looking back at Clinton ITTL, people are going to think of him as amazingly weak. He was elected by a rather small plurality of the vote, and the centerpiece of new policy, his healthcare plan, crashed and burned. Then after 1994, he bent with the wind, passing free trade agreements and welfare reform.

Where does that leave progressive/liberal Democrats after 1996? ITTL looks like the culmination of a long-running nightmare of the unraveling of the New Deal and Great Society consensus. Sure, partisans will rightly point out that the Democratic party lost because of Clinton's personal scandal, not inherent party weakness, but that doesn't help much if one looks back and sees an unwillingness or inability by that party to confront the conservative tides that have been rolling in since 1980.

There's going to be a lot of upheaval among the Democrats, and between liberals, progressives, and moderates before they win big again.

[Coiler]

Yeah, a realistic outcome is to have Democrats win a few seats back in 1998 just by taking out the most overextended Republicans, but in the meantime, having a huge internal battle over the path of the party and policy.

The 2000 and, especially 2004 Democratic presidential primaries in this timeline should be very heated indeed.

"We lost because of Clinton's scandal and only Clinton's scandal. We don't need to change anything?"

"Yeah, but Clinton lost Congress even before the scandal. We need to become more moderate if we have any hope of winning, in deeds as well as words."

"Hell no we don't. We've already been too moderate, and that's the problem! We need to make it very, very clear that we're the only ones standing against the Republicans letting the rich plunder the poor!"

You get the idea.

[Ariosto]

In Illinois, Carol Moseley-Braun hangs on to a victory because Democrats don't want to let a single Republican in, and that overcomes personal dislikes. The economy and lack of issues also makes John Edwards' bid for the Senate in vain.

That would not really work once Gramm has the Justice Department run an investigation on the behalf of the IRS. Whatever that reveals, it simply would bring the issue of corruption back into the Headlines and might sink her just as badly as all her other gaffes and issues.

Therefore it is R +4.

[Sean Mulligan]

Yeah, a realistic outcome is to have Democrats win a few seats back in 1998 just by taking out the most overextended Republicans, but in the meantime, having a huge internal battle over the path of the party and policy.

The 2000 and, especially 2004 Democratic presidential primaries in this timeline should be very heated indeed.

"We lost because of Clinton's scandal and only Clinton's scandal. We don't need to change anything?"

"Yeah, but Clinton lost Congress even before the scandal. We need to become more moderate if we have any hope of winning, in deeds as well as words."

"Hell no we don't. We've already been too moderate, and that's the problem! We need to make it very, very clear that we're the only ones standing against the Republicans letting the rich plunder the poor!"

You get the idea.


I thought it would be the moderates claiming that Clinton lost solely or mainly due to the scandals and the liberals claiming that they need to changed to win by abandoning Clinton's New Democrat policies and move left.

[usertron2020]

That would not really work once Gramm has the Justice Department run an investigation on the behalf of the IRS. Whatever that reveals, it simply would bring the issue of corruption back into the Headlines and might sink her just as badly as all her other gaffes and issues.

Therefore it is R +4.


Jesus, people. Why not just declare 70% of all incumbent Dems in every future election as losers, and wrap up the TL in 2020 with the formal dissolution of the Democratic Party, leaving only the GOP and a separate Tea Party as national political organizations?:confused:

[Coiler]

I thought it would be the moderates claiming that Clinton lost solely or mainly due to the scandals and the liberals claiming that they need to changed to win by abandoning Clinton's New Democrat policies and move left.

Maybe I worded that fictional conversation wrong, but the point is that you can, based solely on Clinton's record in office in the timeline, argue that it was either too moderate (Oh, he was pro-free trade and supported deficit reduction over increased social spending), or too liberal (Oh, he raised taxes and tried to push a massive health care bill).

The Dems will face a lot of infighting over this, and the 1998 elections will raise more questions than answers.

As for Moseley-Braun, more scandals might actually help the Dems hold the seat, either by having someone primary her, or (more likely) pressure her out of the race, leaving a fresher candidate in her place. And there's one person, born in Chicago, who may decide that race is best for her political comeback......

[BlairWitch749]

Maybe I worded that fictional conversation wrong, but the point is that you can, based solely on Clinton's record in office in the timeline, argue that it was either too moderate (Oh, he was pro-free trade and supported deficit reduction over increased social spending), or too liberal (Oh, he raised taxes and tried to push a massive health care bill).

The Dems will face a lot of infighting over this, and the 1998 elections will raise more questions than answers.

As for Moseley-Braun, more scandals might actually help the Dems hold the seat, either by having someone primary her, or (more likely) pressure her out of the race, leaving a fresher candidate in her place. And there's one person, born in Chicago, who may decide that race is best for her political comeback......


hillary's entrence into politics is created by a gramm cabinet appointment so senator from il is out since Gramm has not appointed any senator's from il to the cabinet

[Coiler]

hillary's entrence into politics is created by a gramm cabinet appointment so senator from il is out since Gramm has not appointed any senator's from il to the cabinet

Still, someone else could run for the Illinois seat that didn't have the electoral liability.

As for the senators appointed, that means either Kentucky or Arizona.

[Ariosto]

Jesus, people. Why not just declare 70% of all incumbent Dems in every future election as losers, and wrap up the TL in 2020 with the formal dissolution of the Democratic Party, leaving only the GOP and a separate Tea Party as national political organizations?:confused:

There is precedent for it, with the Democrat's reaching Sixty Eight Seats in the Senate by the time the Congress met in 1965. However, we also have to take into account that, depending upon how fractured the Democratic Party becomes between its Liberals and Moderates, they may not support each other fully and achieve that result. By 2000 there is of course going to be a backlash against the Republican Party, only made stronger in 2002 when the Freshmen of the Class of 1996 try and defend their seats.

In short this is the Democratic Party's "Wilderness Years".

[BlairWitch749]

Still, someone else could run for the Illinois seat that didn't have the electoral liability.

As for the senators appointed, that means either Kentucky or Arizona.
There are offices besides senate

[Ariosto]

Still, someone else could run for the Illinois seat that didn't have the electoral liability.

Even without the liability, you lose the benefit of being an incumbent, and there is risk of backlash as has been mentioned between the Progressives and Moderates who are trying to take over the direction of the Democratic Party. That and Mosley would have to be defeated in a Primary before she left the race, which would only serve to reduce the Democratic Party's resources for the actual election, and damage the new candidate's image.

[Coiler]

Kentucky has two Senate seats up thanks to the appointment, and Blaeser and Bunning can only run for one for one each. This could put both seats in one party's hands, depending on who runs.

[usertron2020]

Guys, I didn't approve of the nastiness in Hendryk's early posts myself, and I said so at the time. But the unidirectional nature I'm seeing in all these "Happy days are here again" pro-GOP predictions for future electoral success are starting to make him look positively precognitive.

[Ariosto]

Guys, I didn't approve of the nastiness in Hendryk's early posts myself, and I said so at the time. But the unidirectional nature I'm seeing in all these "Happy days are here again" pro-GOP predictions for future electoral success are starting to make him look positively precognitive.

The GOP is going to start being kicked down in 2000 at the latest having to defend as much as it does, and when the voters are out in force. The only reason I am making the predictions I am is given the situation which is entirely reasonable, and that 1998 still benefits the Republicans being an off-year election and the Democrats having more seats that are actually vulnerable in the Senate. The House is an entirely different matter.

[Burton K Wheeler]

As a general rule I do not like reading modern political stories because I am very non-partisan. I vote for whoever I think can do a better job. I do not care what letter they have after their name. Also, if I do not know a candidate then I do not cast a vote at all. I think that partisan politics is a big part of the problems we face today. There is no way that one party is 100% right 100% of the time.

That being said, I read the story just because I think that BW is probably the best writer on AH.com. I was not disappointed, it was a very good story. It also comes with the added bonus of the replies of all the wingnuts (left and right). I could picture the left wingnuts having some troubles reading the story through their steady stream of tears. I could also picture the right wingnuts reading the story and using it's content for a little self-pleasure. The bottom line is that this is another great story by the master storyteller Blair Witch 749!

DISCLAIMER: I hope that no wingnuts were offended by the preceding paragraph! I just did it for a few laughs! If you were offended grow a little thicker skin!:D

That's political trolling. Don't do that.

[usertron2020]

The GOP is going to start being kicked down in 2000 at the latest having to defend as much as it does, and when the voters are out in force. The only reason I am making the predictions I am is given the situation which is entirely reasonable, and that 1998 still benefits the Republicans being an off-year election and the Democrats having more seats that are actually vulnerable in the Senate. The House is an entirely different matter.


I agree with everything you just said, except for one thing. 1998 is an off-year for an INCUMBENT Republican Presidency. Speculating on GOP gains in the Senate is pure wishful thinking, and no more than that. Ohio and Illinois will go for the GOP, yes, I see that now. I honestly forgot about Mosely-Braun's legal problems, and Ohio was a GOP landslide. But none of the other potential "swing" elections were by sizable margins. With Gramm going hell-bent-for-leather (which BlairWitch749 has explained very cogently that he really HAS too) the Dems will be outraged and the GOP giddy. Outrage gets you to the polls (as it did in 1998 OTL for the Dems). Giddiness does not.

While I disagree that Limbaugh, Hannity, and O'Reilly will be complacent (they are Professional Republicans, after all. No matter what O'Reilly puts on his Voter Registration Card), that cannot be said the same for regular republican folks who have just enjoyed back-to-back landslides.

To put things in a different perspective, let's assume an ATL where Clinton keeps it holstered (ASB), AND there is no VRWC (ASB'd ASB). Clinton in 1998 is buried in a GOP avalanche every bit as bad as 1994. The Six Year Curse. Ironically, it was the VRWC that wound up preventing this, in spite of itself.:rolleyes: The dynamics of an off-year election ALWAYS favors the party out of power save for extraordinary circumstances. Best of my recollection, that means 1934 (Great Depression), 1962 (Missile Crisis Bump), 1998 (Backlash against the VRWC), and 2002 (911 Bump).

It just doesn't scan that Gramm is going to enjoy a SECOND Monicagate bump two years after the fact. And neither Clinton's nor Gramm's names will be in the voting booths. So unless BW manufactures a Non-OTL crisis out of thin air that gets the country to rally to Gramm at a reasonable time pre-Election Day 1998, his party is heading for a small bath in the Senate, and a moderate to large sized one in the House. Which may not be such a bad thing for Gramm. Because for the first two years of his administration, he'll have absolutely no one in Washington to blame for things going wrong except himself.

Fox News will, of course, play on their audience's ignorance of American Civics to scream: "Democratic Obstructionism!",* but they will only be playing to the GOP base. Democrats, Independents, and even a few Republicans will know that with a supermajority, the buck really does stop at the Oval Office, no matter what the Republican Sound Machine says. President Gramm may even find himself wishing he DIDN'T have all the power to himself!:(
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-That's not going too far. Fixed News did precisely that through most of the Bush Administration, even before the 2006 election, when the congressional Dems were doing their utmost to pull off an imitation of a mass of jellyfish.:rolleyes:

[Ariosto]

No, what is making me think that is, again, the fight that is going to occur between the Progressives and the Moderate within the Democratic Party. Both sides are going to want to nominate their candidates, to come out on top, to represent THEM; they don't want the other side which to them was the reason they largely failed from 1993 to 1997. Therefore it is not really a swing vote from the Democrats to the Republicans, but more like depressed turnout on the part of the Democrats to those who simply do not support the candidate that gets nominated, believing them to be a continuation of that "failure", however right or wrong that opinion is. If there was stability within the Democratic Party, you would be spot on.

That or in 1998 you have the birth of a Progressive "Tea Party" that seeks to shift the Democratic Party to the left, and costs them those seats regardless. I can imagine something like that happening, with Paul Wellstone leading the charge.

[usertron2020]

The GOP is going to start being kicked down in 2000 at the latest having to defend as much as it does, and when the voters are out in force. The only reason I am making the predictions I am is given the situation which is entirely reasonable, and that 1998 still benefits the Republicans being an off-year election and the Democrats having more seats that are actually vulnerable in the Senate. The House is an entirely different matter.

Ah, but will it? Gramm will be running for re-election. That has to help enormously for GOP incumbents. Especially since with maximum de-regulation, the Flat Tax, a 10% National Sales Tax, elimination of all gasoline taxes, elimination of all taxes on oil companies, the entire state of Texas declared an "Economic Enterprise Zone":), massive cutbacks on government spending, and unrestricted oil drilling in Mount Rushmore:eek: (and everywhere else), everything will be peachy keen!:p*
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-just for the lulz,BKW:o

[usertron2020]

No, what is making me think that is, again, the fight that is going to occur between the Progressives and the Moderate within the Democratic Party. Both sides are going to want to nominate their candidates, to come out on top, to represent THEM; they don't want the other side which to them was the reason they largely failed from 1993 to 1997. Therefore it is not really a swing vote from the Democrats to the Republicans, but more like depressed turnout on the part of the Democrats to those who simply do not support the candidate that gets nominated, believing them to be a continuation of that "failure", however right or wrong that opinion is. If there was stability within the Democratic Party, you would be spot on.

That or in 1998 you have the birth of a Progressive "Tea Party" that seeks to shift the Democratic Party to the left, and costs them those seats regardless. I can imagine something like that happening, with Paul Wellstone leading the charge.

This I could agree with, except the wings of the party are more geographic than political. East and West Coast Liberals, plus Upper-Midwest Great Lakes. The DLC "Third Way" was NOT a specific centering of the party. In fact, and this is what infuriated Republicans the most about Slick Willie, was that he deliberately cherry-picked issues from both sides of the aisles. He had no problem backing Republican ideas providing they weren't totally poisonous to his own base. His only real standard seemed to be:

1) "What do the people (majority) want?
2) "What does my party want?"
3) "What does Hillary want?"

It was going for #3 that led to the Healthcare disaster. Mind you, I don't think there ever was a deal to be made there, anyway.

Party splits do not work in a republican system, not since 1912, when the last of the lower 48 became states (Alaska and Hawaii basically canceling each other out). Only in those rare circumstances where both major party candidates are so repulsive do the voters rally to a powerful third party person. And that's only on a state level. You need a national organization to establish a real party, and this "Wellstone" Party you suggest would basically be a creature of the Midwest. Even New England would stay stalwart to the Dems. Though I see you have recognized that "Third Parties" tend to be the creation of individuals, like Teddy Roosevelt, Strom Thurmond, George Wallace, and Ross Perot.

What can kill any party is what seems to be hurting both parties right now, though the GOP seems to have a bigger problem just right now in this area. Namely, LITMUS TESTS. Guns, abortion, gay rights/gay marriage,* tax cuts, tax increases, and so on. The GOP says they are a party with a Big Tent. Then how come everybody knows what a derogatory term RINO is, while "Blue Dog" is a title of pride and DINO is Fred Flintstone's pet dinosaur?:confused:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-The only issue I can think of which makes BOTH sides reach for their shootin' irons at High Noon!:mad:

[Ariosto]

I didn't mean them as a Third Party, but a much more vocal movement within the Democratic Party with a level of power similar to what was seen in the OTL 2010 Elections (at least in terms of its own power). Basically candidates who are perceived as being stronger or supported by the Party Establishment are voted down by Progressives who turn out in larger than expected numbers. Ferraro and Green for example might do much better against Schumer in New York.

However, now thinking about it yet again, it may be more realistic for the results to be almost entirely like that of OTL in terms of seats gained and lost.

[Coiler]

I didn't mean them as a Third Party, but a much more vocal movement within the Democratic Party with a level of power similar to what was seen in the OTL 2010 Elections (at least in terms of its own power). Basically candidates who are perceived as being stronger or supported by the Party Establishment are voted down by Progressives who turn out in larger than expected numbers. Ferraro and Green for example might do much better against Schumer in New York.

However, now thinking about it yet again, it may be more realistic for the results to be almost entirely like that of OTL in terms of seats gained and lost.

Green would be more of a progressive darling than Ferraro. If Schumer senses weakness in Pataki and is falling behind in the Senate race, he might leave that to run for governor, so the final statewide races could look like this.

New York: 1998

Senate:

Green-D: 52%
D'Amato-R: 48%

Governor:
Pataki-R: 47%
Schumer-D: 45%
Golisano-I: 7%

For other states, I don't see much of opening for how far-left candidates could cost them, except for an unlikely Bayh loss to a liberal primary opponent or a social liberal winning in Kentucky. Most liberals will be incumbents, New York is New York, and it'd be hard to outflank John Edwards.

[Ariosto]

Something that just came to mind is if the Corruption Allegations being investigated into by the Justice Department might result in Mosley being forced from here seat, either by impeachment or resignation. Under those cases, Republican Governor Jim Edgar would have to appoint a new Senator. It doesn't really change the end result, but it does put an interesting twist to the race.

[usertron2020]

Green would be more of a progressive darling than Ferraro. If Schumer senses weakness in Pataki and is falling behind in the Senate race, he might leave that to run for governor, so the final statewide races could look like this.

New York: 1998

Senate:

Green-D: 52%
D'Amato-R: 48%

Governor:
Pataki-R: 47%
Schumer-D: 45%
Golisano-I: 7%

For other states, I don't see much of opening for how far-left candidates could cost them, except for an unlikely Bayh loss to a liberal primary opponent or a social liberal winning in Kentucky. Most liberals will be incumbents, New York is New York, and it'd be hard to outflank John Edwards.

Except Pataki wasn't weak, not even remotely, and Schumer had no interest in the governor's mansion. He wanted to take the seat of the by now VERY unpopular Alphonse D'Amato. D'Amato's loss wasn't "New York being New YorK." This was a man who came in during the Reagan 1980 landslide and as "Senator Pothole" (D'Amato was very responsive to the needs of his constituents at the local level) was popularly re-elected by VERY comfortable margins in 1986 and 1992.

Schumer was a very popular congressman who had just helped oversee the successful campaign to unseat Long Island Republican Daniel Frisa (4th US congressional district) who voted against gun control bills despite the massacre (1993) that had just taken place on a Long Island commuter train car (he lost to Carolyn McCarthy, a widow of one of the victims!:p). She is still in office, in a heavily Republican district. Mainly because she ran a clean campaign while her incumbent opponent charged her with being a "McCarthyist!":rolleyes:

Schumer wanted a promotion to the upper house in Washington. Pataki wasn't going anywhere, and Schumer was smart enough to know that. I have to say I don't know where you got this "2%" margin of victory for Pataki in 1998. It was a 21% landslide of epic proportions! Merely inserting Schumer's name will not give him a 19% bump. Pataki was VERY popular and eventually served three good terms. And I say that as a Liberal Democrat.:)

D'Amato had spent two years OTL (1995-1996) running the most vicious campaign possible against the Clinton Administration. D'Amato couldn't effectively attack the Clintons themselves (he didn't have the power or ammunition for that regarding Whitewater:rolleyes:), so he went after lowly aides and secretaries who he damn well knew had no more knowledge of Whitewater than you or I. But it kept his name in the papers, and he was a constant talking head seen on CNN. After the re-election of Clinton, he seemed to get the message and desperately tried to backtrack, but it was already too late.

ITTL, I can only see D'Amato as being emboldened, not chastised. Not only will he lose, but by even bigger margins. You having him losing by only 4%?:confused: But then you have Green, the founder of Air America, as his opponent! What, Michael Moore was too busy?:p Chuck Schumer has never lost an election in his life, and never served in an executive role. In the 1998 primary, Ferraro and Green split the vote, while Schumer got an absolute majority of 51%.

It looks to me like you are setting up an extremist far-left Democrat to be a certified one-termer while crushing the career of one of New York's most powerful Democratic politicians (Schumer). Two birds with one stone.:mad:

[Ariosto]

I have to agree with Usertron, to a degree, but he is for the most part right. Schumer even if there is stronger Progressive support for both Ferraro and Green would still win the primary, if by a smaller margin; the division there would be too great and there would be no run-off. From there the election would probably go as much as OTL, maybe one or two percent difference.

[Coiler]

Except Pataki wasn't weak, not even remotely, and Schumer had no interest in the governor's mansion. He wanted to take the seat of the by now VERY unpopular Alphonse D'Amato. D'Amato's loss wasn't "New York being New YorK." This was a man who came in during the Reagan 1980 landslide and as "Senator Pothole" (D'Amato was very responsive to the needs of his constituents at the local level) was popularly re-elected by VERY comfortable margins in 1986 and 1992.


D'Amato barely won in 1992, and he won only because of a brutal Democratic primary and a hapless opponent who made the mistake of calling him a "fascist." 2 points after a brutal campaign is not "very comfortable margins.

Besides, this is in-timeline. If there's a big enough backlash, New York Democrats may be able to nationalize the governor's race.


Schumer was a very popular congressman who had just helped oversee the successful campaign to unseat Long Island Republican Daniel Frisa (4th US congressional district) who voted against gun control bills despite the massacre (1993) that had just taken place on a Long Island commuter train car (he lost to Carolyn McCarthy, a widow of one of the victim's!:p). She is still in office, in a heavily Republican district. Mainly because she ran a clean campaign while her incumbent opponent charged her with being a "McCarthyist!":rolleyes:

I fail to see how a district that gave Gore 59% of the vote, Kerry 55%, and Obama 58% is "heavily Republican" on anything other than the local level, especially after the Nassau Republican machine collapses.


Schumer wanted a promotion to the upper house in Washington.


Which he can still get, easily. No Hillary running means that he wins the next Senate race in a walk.


Pataki wasn't going anywhere, and Schumer was smart enough to know that. I have to say I don't know where you got this "2%" margin of victory for Pataki in 1998. It was a 21% landslide of epoch proportions! Merely inserting Schumer's name will not give him a 19% bump. Pataki was VERY popular and eventually served three good terms. And I say that as a Liberal Democrat.:)


You'd be surprised how a backlash can lead to narrow margins of victory. Schumer is a better candidate (and certainly a better fundraiser) than Peter Vallone, and a fired-up Democratic party could make it surprisingly close. Pataki could lead in the polls by about 10 points, and surprisingly high Democratic turnout makes it a two-point victory.

Besides, a lot can change after the point of divergence. Two years is a long time in politics. This is not the same as OTL.


ITTL, I can only see D'Amato as being emboldened, not chastised. Not only will he lose, but by even bigger margins. You having him losing by only 4%?


What's he gonna do? Criticize the Gramm administration? No. Being the opportunist he is, he's almost certain to backtrack to constituent services while helping to move the administration's policies through.

:confused: But then you have Green, the founder of Air America, as his opponent! What, Michael Moore was too busy?:p Chuck Schumer has never lost an election in his life, and never served in an executive role. In the 1998 primary, Ferraro and Green split the vote, while Schumer got an absolute majority of 51%.

Stranger things have happened in OTL. Just look at some of the people the Tea Party brought up, then flip the spectrum. I mean, I could've put Al Sharpton up, then you'd be begging for nice, sensible, Mark Green. :p

And yes, Green is a weaker candidate, which is why I'm only having him win by four points. Most likely it'd be a photo finish in the polls and the previously mentioned high Dem turnout bringing Green a victory.

Look, the "conventional wisdom" being proven wrong happens a lot in politics, and the POD was three years ago. A lot can change in that time period.


It looks to me like you are setting up an extremist far-left Democrat to be a certified one-termer while crushing the career of one of New York's most powerful Democratic politicians (Schumer). Two birds with one stone.:mad:

No, I think Green is likely to win reelection. It's New York in a presidential year, and the dot-com bubble popping, Enron, or other scandals give him plenty of ammunition.

And poor Schumer has to.... wait a little until he wins the open seat that Hillary no longer runs for. Poor guy.

[BlairWitch749]

don't forget that rudy is now in washington so gracie mansion will be up for grabs as well

[Coiler]

don't forget that rudy is now in washington so gracie mansion will be up for grabs as well

True. Green could run for mayor in 1997, and if he wins (which is almost certain if he wins the primary), the Senate primary is just between Ferraro and Schumer.

[usertron2020]

True. Green could run for mayor in 1997, and if he wins (which is almost certain if he wins the primary(1)), the Senate primary is just between Ferraro and Schumer.(2)

1)Green won't win the primary. It may be a free-for-all, but he won't win. Even the New York Democratic machine isn't that left-wing, and with an open seat a lot of candidates will be interested. No one will want a mistake like David Dinkins again. The OTL candidate was a sacrificial goat. Too far to the left and even Michael Bloomberg might be tempted to throw his hat in early.

2)Which puts an in-office squeaky-clean former 3 term State Assemblyman and 9 term US Congressman Schumer (who won 51% OTL against Green, Ferraro, and a host of lesser candidates) against a 3 term out-of-office for 14 years ex-Congresswoman and ex-VP candidate of a GOP blowout 1984 election Ferraro (who had had all kinds of private difficulties due to her husband's businesses).

You seem to be under the impression, or at least unwittingly implying, that Schumer is some kind of Blue Dog Democrat.:p If you watch FNC, you have seen the endless attacks on Schumer by their attack dogs. He is a solid Liberal Democrat. Call him Progressive if you like. You say potayto, I say potahto.:)

And of course there is the fact that Ferraro's multiple myeloma was diagnosed right at the very end of the election campaign of 1998. So either she risks stressing herself out with a Senator's full work schedule, and dying on the job (ala Hubert Humphrey in 1976), or she drops out of politics to concentrate on her cancer treatments (OTL). Either way, Pataki winds up naming a GOP replacement. I'm afraid I'm starting to see a pattern here. Like every single scenario you draw up goes in favor of the Republicans. Got any positive scenarios for the Democrats?:confused:

[Coiler]

Sure: Schumer runs and wins, just like OTL, or someone else enters the race, runs, and wins. Both are plausible, but I like having an alternate history.

Just my personal taste, though.

[usertron2020]

1)D'Amato barely won in 1992, and he won only because of a brutal Democratic primary and a hapless opponent who made the mistake of calling him a "fascist." 2 points after a brutal campaign is not "very comfortable margins.

2)Besides, this is in-timeline. If there's a big enough backlash, New York Democrats may be able to nationalize the governor's race.



3)I fail to see how a district that gave Gore 59% of the vote, Kerry 55%, and Obama 58% is "heavily Republican" on anything other than the local level, especially after the Nassau Republican machine collapses.



4)Which he can still get, easily. No Hillary running means that he wins the next Senate race in a walk.



5)You'd be surprised how a backlash can lead to narrow margins of victory. Schumer is a better candidate (and certainly a better fundraiser) than Peter Vallone, and a fired-up Democratic party could make it surprisingly close. Pataki could lead in the polls by about 10 points, and surprisingly high Democratic turnout makes it a two-point victory.

6)Besides, a lot can change after the point of divergence. Two years is a long time in politics. This is not the same as OTL.



7)What's he gonna do? Criticize the Gramm administration? No. Being the opportunist he is, he's almost certain to backtrack to constituent services while helping to move the administration's policies through.



8)Stranger things have happened in OTL. Just look at some of the people the Tea Party brought up, then flip the spectrum. 9)I mean, I could've put Al Sharpton up, then you'd be begging for nice, sensible, Mark Green. :p

10)And yes, Green is a weaker candidate, which is why I'm only having him win by four points. Most likely it'd be a photo finish in the polls and the previously mentioned high Dem turnout bringing Green a victory.

Look, the "conventional wisdom" being proven wrong happens a lot in politics, and the POD was three years ago. 11)A lot can change in that time period.



12)No, I think Green is likely to win reelection. It's New York in a presidential year, and the dot-com bubble popping, Enron, or other scandals give him plenty of ammunition.

13) And poor Schumer has to.... wait a little until he wins the open seat that Hillary no longer runs for. Poor guy.

1) You're right.:o I was going by memory, and the papers covered his two blowouts considerably more than the squeaker. I do remember the "fascist" statement now that you bring it up. Which makes D'Amato's behavior 1995-1997 all the more perplexing.:confused:

2) George Pataki was governor of a reasonably liberal state in terms of Presidential matters, but many people outside of the Northeast don't seem to realize how conservative Upstate New York, the Rochester region, and Long Island is compared to the Big Apple. It was those three groups that elected Pataki three times. He was never a creature of the VRWC! He seemed to understand that embracing Newt and company would be poisonous for his career in New York State. The Democrats in New York were well-aware of that.

So any attempt to "nationalize" the governors race simply wouldn't work, as Pataki was not a prospective presidential candidate. The 1998 campaign wasn't Douglas v. Lincoln in the 1858 Illinois Senate Race, nor was it the Nixon v. Brown 1962 California Governor's Race. The eyes of the nation were not watching in New York. I suppose if ITTL the race had been in an odd-numbered year, like 1997, then that would make sense. But in 1998 everyone would be watching Washington ITTL, not Albany. After all, if an ASB intervened to force the lifelong legislator Schumer to run for governor...if nominated, the "nation" would say: "Schumer who?" If Ferraro got nominated: "So last decade! She's still around?"

3) *sigh* Since I was talking about a CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION, what does national presidential voting patterns have to do with the price of eggs!? I see you failed to note that prior to Schumer convincing McCarthy to run, and prior to McCarthy's victory, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY CONTROLLED THE 4TH CONGRESSIONAL HOUSE SEAT/DISTRICT FOR AN UNINTERRUPTED STRING OF FOURTY-FOUR YEARS/TWENTY TWO ELECTIONS! Why did you leave that out?:confused:

4) Why wait? Schumer's already become a power in Washington. Why throw all that away on a Don Quixote charge against an overwhelmingly popular governor? He's never lost an election. That's a very powerful mojo for a politician to have. Why throw it all away? If he runs for his old seat at the same time, Pataki will use that against him. If he doesn't, he's out of Washington for at least two years. And in 1997 no one knew that Pat Moynihan wasn't running in 2000. He kept his cards very close to his chest so he could set things up for Hillary. There IS no reason for him to wait. The opposition will never be weaker. Schumer in 1997 can't possibly know if the Senate seat will be available and who he will be facing.

5) The backlash is on the federal level. Pataki has had nothing to do with anything going on in DC, whether IOTL or ITTL. And again, he was very popular. With Republicans, Independents, and more than a few Democrats who liked his more genteel, less in-your-face style (as opposed to Rudi, who could be downright obnoxious on the subject) of strong law-and-order positions. Indeed, voting for Pataki in 1998 can represent "balance" for voters pulling the lever for Democrats in Washington.

6)Again, Schumer is a legislator, not an executive. He doesn't want to be a mayor, governor, or president. He sees himself as Senate Majority Leader someday. Changed political facts on the ground, and numbers crunching, don't change the man. Schumer is Schumer. This again looks like wishful thinking desperately trying to squeeze strong Democratic politicians into a meat grinder that IRL they would never, ever, enter.

7)Except as I said, OTL he was positively timid post-1996, and it did him absolutely no good whatsoever. Immediately following the OTL elections, he declared publicly that the people had spoken and were satisfied as to any questions regarding Whitewater. He pretty much disappeared from the talking head circuit for awhile, and when he returned, it was clear he had turned in his VRWC membership card.:rolleyes: ITTL? Essentially, no change. Perhaps NOT emboldened, though.

8) Except the Democratic Party doesn't have a Tea Party. The closest it ever came was George McGovern's 1972 campaign. The two parties are not the same. And I don't mean in terms of political litmus tests. One party is a jellyfish, the other takes no prisoners. One party makes deals, the other issues ultimatums. Notice I didn't name them? The 1998 political backlash OTL was brief, ephemeral, based on hostility for the oppositions' tactics, not so much their ideas. The backlash ITTL will be one of inertia, not a jihad, and against Washington, not Albany.

9) Well, yes. You could DO that. Put up Al Sharpton's name, that is. But AFAIK, the man has never won an election in his life. And this is not the ASB forum.

10) A weaker candidate against Chuck Schumer in the primary as well. He got 19% to Schumer's 51% OTL. You seem to be assuming that every last Ferraro voter, every last independent candidate voter, and 4% of SCHUMER'S voters will all to the last person switch their votes to Green, while ITTL he KEEPS all of his own. Which is what you'll need to push him over the top! I'm sorry, but this is handwavium territory.:(

11) ITTL, over three years, nothing in the POD has happened to change New York STATE politics for the 1998 Elections. At least in terms of the OTL candidates, save for New York City.

12) Do I sense you want such a man in the US Senate? As a replacement for Teddy Kennedy as a GOP voodoo doll? Green is the kind of politician that could represent heavily gerrymandered DISTRICTS in the US House of Representatives. No way in HELL does a arch-left winger get a victory out of a state wide election in New York. New York is NOT Massachusetts, no matter what things may look like on Presidential Election night on the big state-by-state boards. This was why Green only got 19% of the vote in a New York Democratic primary, and you have him not only winning a majority in the primary, but winning the general election as well?? Against all those voters upstate and in Long Island? Fourth term for D'Amato.:( Then you have Green RE-ELECTED in 2004?:confused: Sorry. BS Flag Alert.

13) Gee, now suddenly everything is back on track OTL and TTL? At least, regarding the 2000 New York Senate Election? I thought everything was different now?:rolleyes: Maybe Moynihan gets run over by a truck and Pataki names himself as the replacement. And maybe Schumer decides to shave his head and join the Hare Krishnas. Anyway, you are assuming he WILL wait, and that his 2000 opponents (primary and general) will be pushovers. You must truly believe the Senior Senator from the State of New York has a hundred pounds of brain damage to throw away two birds in the hand NOW (easy primary/general election victories in the Senate) in exchange for one bird in the bush two years later.:mad:

[usertron2020]

Sure: Schumer runs and wins, just like OTL, or someone else enters the race, runs, and wins. Both are plausible, but I like having an alternate history.

Just my personal taste, though.

Except Green is unelectable, and Ferraro is sick, and will either die or retire to be replaced by a Republican. The keyword is plausible. Interesting use of the word taste, BTW. I think that considering the direction of your predictions, "taste" is a very appropriate word. Or perhaps "preference"?;)

[usertron2020]

There is precedent for it, with the Democrat's reaching Sixty Eight Seats in the Senate by the time the Congress met in 1965. However, we also have to take into account that, depending upon how fractured the Democratic Party becomes between its Liberals and Moderates, they may not support each other fully and achieve that result. By 2000 there is of course going to be a backlash against the Republican Party, only made stronger in 2002 when the Freshmen of the Class of 1996 try and defend their seats.

In short this is the Democratic Party's "Wilderness Years".

Ariosto, that inflated result was due to the 1958 Six year Curse for Ike, the 1960 JFK Election, the Missile Crisis Bump, and the post Assassination LBJ (anti-Goldwater) landslide. There is no formula to produce a THIRD big election for the GOP ITTL for 1998 (and a 3-4 seat Senate gain, as people here are predicting, IS a landslide for an incumbent off-year election). BlairWitch749 has made it clear he isn't going to pull something out of his ass (like a non-OTL foreign crisis/war) to give Gramm such a bump.

[BlairWitch749]

Ariosto, that inflated result was due to the 1958 Six year Curse for Ike, the 1960 JFK Election, the Missile Crisis Bump, and the post Assassination LBJ (anti-Goldwater) landslide. There is no formula to produce a THIRD big election for the GOP ITTL for 1998 (and a 3-4 Senate seat gain, as people here are predicting, IS a landslide for an incumbent off-year election). BlairWitch749 has made it clear he isn't going to pull something out of his ass (like a non-OTL foreign crisis/war) to give Gramm such a bump.

Gramm has received perhaps the greatest October surprise gift ever in this TL already; whilst he might have a crisis or something during his adminstration at some point; he will not be getting another election gift (otherwise we are in super wank territory)

Although we are long way from there; Gramm's goal is going to be to basically hold what he has (within reason) based on campaigning on the peace and prosperity of the 1997-1998 period; it should be a mostly good environment for encumbants

[The Red]

What's happening in the UK just now? The destruction and defeat of Clinton might hurt Blair?

[usertron2020]

What's happening in the UK just now? The destruction and defeat of Clinton might hurt Blair?

Don't see how. Blair kept it holstered. And the UK is still at the tail end of an 18 year long Conservative Era (Thatcher-11 years, Major-7 years). In fact, the Great Labor Landslide of May 1997 is only a few months away ITTL. Nothing about Slick Willie's sexual antics are going to in any way affect the enormous political forces about to explode across the pond. It may affect how Blair handles the royals and their shameful behavior following Diana's death, however. Namely, he may be even more forthright with them than IOTL.

[Orville_third]

Don't see how. Blair kept it holstered. And the UK is still at the tail end of an 18 year long Conservative Era (Thatcher-11 years, Major-7 years). In fact, the Great Labor Landslide of May 1997 is only a few months away ITTL. Nothing about Slick Willie's sexual antics are going to in any way affect the enormous political forces about to explode across the pond. It may affect how Blair handles the royals and their shameful behavior following Diana's death, however. Namely, he may be even more forthright with them than IOTL.
On the other hand, will Blair's "Third Way" work without a similar US example?

[RPW@Cy]

It may affect how Blair handles the royals and their shameful behavior following Diana's death, however. Namely, he may be even more forthright with them than IOTL.

Indeed. It was absolutely outrageous of them to try to come together as a family and support two young boys who had just lost their mother in horrific circumstances rather than go on telly to emote for the entertainment of the mob, wasn't it?:rolleyes:

[usertron2020]

Indeed. It was absolutely outrageous of them to try to come together as a family and support two young boys who had just lost their mother in horrific circumstances rather than go on telly to emote for the entertainment of the mob, wasn't it?:rolleyes:

You apparently don't know a lot about the political circumstances immediately following Diana's death, and how the Royals initially reacted to the news of her death. The situation of the boys losing their mother didn't seem to the public to be a terribly important issue to Elizabeth, Philip, and Charles at the time. A national poll showed 25% of the British public after Diana's death supporting the abolition of the monarchy following Elizabeth's death. That figure didn't come out of thin air. It was that poll that forced Elizabeth to make her national broadcast.

[usertron2020]

On the other hand, will Blair's "Third Way" work without a similar US example?

It was Blair's "Third Way" that led to the Labor Landslide. That is, proof that after 18 years in the wilderness, Labor had finally realized that the country wasn't going to "come around" to the radical ultra-left politics of Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock. That's how and why Blair was made Leader of the Opposition in the first place. To remake the party. It worked, spectacularly.

[mrmandias]

Indeed. It was absolutely outrageous of them to try to come together as a family and support two young boys who had just lost their mother in horrific circumstances rather than go on telly to emote for the entertainment of the mob, wasn't it?:rolleyes:

Restrained applause.

[BlairWitch749]

sorry for the lack up updates this week (work has been busy enough to confine me to commenting in other threads instead of brainstorming my own stuff)... will wrap up the rediculous mrs bw tangent by monday then back into political fodder

@the red

this tl is of a wider scope already than i anticipated, if you want to come up with a splinter segment of uk politics and their development in parallel with monica's baby you are more than welcome to add them to the thread or post a co thread a la what was done with calbears tl

[usertron2020]

Gramm has received perhaps the greatest October surprise gift ever in this TL already.:)

Up until this time, the Greatest October Surprise Gift Ever was probably the Cuban Missile Crisis. Like a number of posters here:rolleyes: regarding the GOP ITTL in 1998, IOTL Kennedy had "visionary hopes" of picking up a few seats in the House and Senate. But after viewing the USAF photos of the missile bases, he saw all his hopes for electoral success dashed, as far as he was concerned.

He told his brother Bobby that "When the truth of Cuba gets out, the Republicans are going to murder us.":(

What was worse was that part of Krushchev's thinking about sending the missiles to Cuba was that Kennedy wouldn't (if he learned of the missiles) do or reveal anything before the November Elections, so his own party would be protected. Of course, despite this warped opinion, in reality there never was any question of holding back the truth about Cuba because of political considerations. That would have gotten Kennedy impeached, convicted, and removed. Overwhelming Democratic majorities be damned.

But because the Soviets backed down at a time so close to Election Day, it turned into a big electoral plus for the Democrats.

[Cylon_Number_14]

I finally got some time to respond again to this TL.

Firstly, re: the 1996 EV Map. My thought is that the map was reasonable because it makes sense for Perot to have leeched off enough conservative/paleoconservative votes to save Clinton from being completely shut out. Imagine a lot of those red states being Clinton 41% to Gramm 40% more-or-less.

Secondly: My father works for the federal government (the forest service) so I have seen first hand the SNAFU that occurred with the purchasing of computers. The computer rental system is absolutely brilliant and would prevent much cursing and face-palming in federal offices everywhere!

Now, I really really hope the next chapter focuses on the consolidation of those targeted federal departments. I had a flash of insight and thought that an interesting consolidation would be to take the duties of the EPA and Dept of Energy (and other related organizations) and combine them all into a strengthened Department of the Interior. This could be considered an efficiency decision rather than a total elimination of the agencies. Because seriously, I don't think all of those 61 Republican senators are conservative enough to break filibusters on completely annihilation of regulatory agencies (I'm thinking of those New England Republicans mainly)

[usertron2020]

Now, I really really hope the next chapter focuses on the consolidation of those targeted federal departments. I had a flash of insight and thought that an interesting consolidation would be to take the duties of the EPA and Dept of Energy (and other related organizations) and combine them all into a strengthened Department of the Interior. This could be considered an efficiency decision rather than a total elimination of the agencies. Because seriously, I don't think all of those 61 Republican senators are conservative enough to break filibusters on complete annihilation of regulatory agencies (I'm thinking of those New England Republicans mainly)

The problem is that historically regulatory agencies can find themselves overruled when they don't have Cabinet status. Departments are often subject to conflicting forces that pull them in different directions. You could expect a consolidated Department of Energy and EPA under a Department of the Interior in the Gramm Administration to be reduced to "drill, baby, drill" and complete toothlessness respectively (ala W, who made his EPA Chief and Token Progressive Republican, ex-New Jersey Governor Christine Todd Whitman, his very first Cabinet Officer to be fired-I don't think she lasted a year). Not to mention champagne corks flying in the timber industry.

Thank you for your wisdom in recognizing that New England GOP Congress members don't match the voting records of their fellow GOP caucus members in Idaho, Utah, Texas, and South Carolina.:) I haven't been seeing a lot of that wisdom on this thread.

[GeoffM]

You apparently don't know a lot about the political circumstances...

You are right about the politics but horribly wrong about the humanity of the situation. Every family should be allowed to grieve in private.

[usertron2020]

You are right about the politics but horribly wrong about the humanity of the situation. Every family should be allowed to grieve in private.

I agree with you about the right to grieve in private. That said, are you aware that the first question asked by the royal office wasn't about securing Diana's body, but her jewels?:eek: I don't think ANY royal had such a petty thing in mind at the time, but somebody at Buckingham royally fucked up over such insensitivity.:mad: Whoever made that request should have been clapped in the Tower over this!:D Naturally, the authorities in Paris DID NOT sit on this request, but rather released it to the public, which is one reason why things went downhill so quickly for the royals at the time. Even marching at her funeral in civilian dress, rather than formal royal uniforms, resulted in problems.

[usertron2020]

bumpbumpbump

[lloyd007]

1998 will really depend on how the economy is doing, IMO. If Dot Boom is still present it will be a favorable year for incumbents or both parties. A few Rep freshmen in the house will consolidate and others will be booted out. 1996 TTL seems a lot like OTL 2008 where the Dems swept up even strongly leaning Rep districts thanks to a fired up base vs a demoralized one. A lot of freshman Reps will be swept out of Dem leaning districts no matter what which will still leave the Reps with a decent majority...

If Dot Boom turns into Dot Bomb you have OTL 2006 in TTL 1998...

[BlairWitch749]

Love at second sight (Out of order tangent demanded by Mrs BW) - “If you live long enough, you'll make mistakes. But if you learn from them, you'll be a better person. It's how you handle adversity, not how it affects you. The main thing is never quit, never quit, never quit.” - Bill Clinton

January 2nd 1997 Washington DC (Victor Lewinsky is 15 weeks old)

Bill Clinton would be leaving office in three weeks, the questions about his future would require some decisions at this point. When he had gone down in stunning defeat to now President Elect Phil Gramm, Bill had originally opted for a return to Arkansas for a long period of reflection and quiet before moving on to memoirs or the speaking circuit... but things had changed a lot the last 6 weeks. Jack Quinn had obtained visitation rights to Victor Lewinsky which Bill found himself thoroughly enjoying, and Chelsea still had another year of high school, (Bill and Hillary had agreed that regardless of their separation or wherever they would end up going that Chelsea would be kept in her school)

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/164/610/alg_bill_clinton_hand_over_face.jpg?1313825691
Bill needed to find a new home following his ousting from the whitehouse

So President Clinton experienced a strong pull towards staying in the area which resonated deep inside himself. He liked being in Washington anyway, he appreciated the pace, the environment and there would always be something for him to do beyond taking care of his expanded family. After scouting out a few homes in the Alexandria VA and Bethesda MD areas Bill came back to just wanting to be in the city itself and found himself settling for a 3 bedroom townhouse only 4 blocks from Monica's mother's condo at the watergate, and only 4 miles from the home that Hillary had rented and was living at with Chelsea for the remainder of high school.

Monica herself changed her living situation at this time. Staying in her mother's condo was not a good permanent arrangment due to the lack of space and privacy. Marcia Lewinsky and her ex-husband put the money together for Monica to buy another condo in the same building though, just one floor down from her mother which would be convenient for babysitting duties but allow Monica to regain some independence.

http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/files/2007/06/Monica1.JPG
Monica remained in washington staying at the watergate condo complex

This situation ended up being ideal for Bill allowing him easy and regular visitation with both of his children. He also continued to flow along a path to much greater humility and introspectiveness as he became less focused on himself and more actively involved with his children.

Hillary too focused herself on her child, taking an active role in visiting colleges with Chelsea so that they could make up their minds on where to send applications in the fall; a welcome distraction from any thoughts of book writing or speaking engagements. During Chelsea's Christmas break from school they went to California to visit Stanford and UC-Berkley which both shot to the top of Chelsea's list of preferred schools, later trips to New York to see NYU and Cornell along with trips to Georgetown and American University where scheduled for the upcoming summer

http://progressivepatriots.com/images/hillaryclinton.jpg
Hillary Clinton travelled the country looking for colleges with Chelsea

Her divorce with Bill would not be finalized till February but their relationship did steadily improve during this period as the pattern's in Bill's behavior looked much more solid on the surface

On a Saturday in March Victor had just turned 6 months old. The president came to Monica's condo to pick him up, stroller in hand with plans to take him on a long walk in the unexpectedly warm weather, Bill could hear him crying through the door when he knocked. Monica answered in a bathrobe, hair dishevled and her face damp and red from an obvious round of crying

BC: What's wrong Monica
ML: Oh, it's just that Victor has been up all night, he cut his first tooth and has a fever, he is very uncomfortable, and I didn't sleep at all
BC: I don't have to take him out today if he doesn't feel well... you look worn out, why don't I play with him in the living room and give him something else to think about besides his teeth and you take a nap for a bit
ML: Oh Bill thank you, that would be great, if he really acts up just come get me and we will see about getting him to the doctor, I just gave him some baby tylenol so hopefully he will start feeling better

40 minutes later

BC: (after dailing his secret service agent's cell who was waiting for him in the lobby to come out with the baby) Arnie listen, the baby doesn't feel well and Monica is a mess from him being up all night, I am going to do my visitation here, you can come back for me later
Agent: I'll just wait in the lobby till you are ready to leave sir
BC: Don't worry about it, I'm not leaving, the baby is sick and his mother is taking a nap, go check out your son's basketball practice or take the wife out to lunch



90 minutes later
Bill sat on the couch watching the NCAA college basketball tournament. Monica entered looking noticeably better, having showered and made up for one hour of sleep deprevation

ML: How did you guys do?
BC: Just fine, Victor is gonna be crawlin' in a couple of weeks I think, we did some belly play time and read an Elmo book, I think the tylenol did the trick; he just dozed off 15 minutes ago
ML: Thank you so much for letting me rest, I was just feeling so mangled... I'm sorry that you guys didn't get to go out, are your secret service guys pissed that they have to sit in the stuffy lobby with the put you to sleep running fountain
BC: I sent them out to lunch... it's no big deal I'm happy to help and spend time with Victor where I can
Monica sat next to Bill on the couch, taken in as she had been the last several months by the charm of his casual nature, and the impressive efforts he had been making to be a good father... she asked him questions about the ball game and which she understood little about, although she found it cute as he went into professor Bill mode and explained the NCAA tournament to her (Bill being a rabid Arkansas razorbacks fan). She hadn't been with a man since the last time Bill took her, not that her Mother and other's didn't encourage her to date... she was just so wrapped up in Victor and all the going's on as a new mother that she honestly had denied herself thoughts of wanting for a very long time. She laughed when he told her that he had gotten into some trouble during the 1992 presidential campaign when he went into the broadcast booth during and Arkansas game and when his player scored shouting "Go baby go" into the microphone. Before his chuckle wore off Monica leaned in close and kissed Bill....



to be continued


thoughts?

http://image1.masterfile.com/getImage/NjAwLTAzNjM4NjI4bi4wMDAwMDAwMA=ABuU3R/600-03638628n.jpg
Victor Lewinsky at 6 months old in his third shoot for people magazine... here playing in the pool at Monica's condo complex

[usertron2020]

My only thoughts are about wondering how the Gramm Administration is doing. How does he handle the Yugoslavia/Bosnia/Kosovo Crisis? At least he'll have a free hand without people accusing him about his motives.:) My only interest regarding the Clintons is regarding Hill's political future.

Consider:

Hillary was elected (and re-elected) Senator from New York; one of the richest, most populous states in the Union

Hillary came in a close second in the 2008 Democratic Presidential primaries (due to her staff's failure to appreciate the importance of state caucuses, where Obama's people did)

She wound up as the highest ranking Cabinet Officer in an Administration where domestic politics (particularly the economy) is in a mess while overseas US foreign policy is pretty much smooth sailing:) At least since UBL got his 72 Virginians.

If Hillary does "well" ITTL? How well is "well"? Has to be pretty damn fantastically well to match anything like what she's enjoying now.:D

BW749

You've already alluded to the fact that she's not pursuing a career in the Senate, making a seat in the House both beneath her and useless in an overwhelmingly GOP dominated body. Ambassadorships are even more beneath her. Cabinet appointments in a Democratic White House? OTL.

But what does that leave? She has neither Judicial nor Executive experience. Leaving out judgeships and governorships. And states EVERYWHERE do not like the concept of carpetbagger Governors.:mad:

I admit quite frankly I'm mystified.:( While I'll readily admit that with a little tweaking of health and criminal issues, the door for Hillary's entry into the Illinois Governor's Mansion could be opened; I question whether she'd want it.

EDIT: And whether Illinois would want her.

[BlairWitch749]

the answer is rather in front of you userton

i already said hillary will not be in the senate, and the position she will seek is vacant due to a phil gramm cabinet appointment, she will not move to new york AND she will not look as much like a carpet bagger as she did in the otl 2000 senate race :)

[thekingsguard]

Glad to see this updated!

[usertron2020]

the answer is rather in front of you userton

i already said hillary will not be in the senate, and the position she will seek is vacant due to a phil gramm cabinet appointment, she will not move to new york AND she will not look as much like a carpet bagger as she did in the otl 2000 senate race :)

It's technically vacant, but unless there is something special about that state's succession laws, the state constitutional officer (Lieutenant Governor Gray Davis) to inherit the position is a Democrat. Could or would Hillary challenge him in the next state primary? Against an incumbent in a state where she has no history? And what states, other than Illinois, Connecticut (Yale graduate), or Arkansas (not a chance), would she not be considered a carpetbagger in?:confused:

[BlairWitch749]

It's technically vacant, but unless there is something special about that state's succession laws, the state constitutional officer (Lieutenant Governor Gray Davis) to inherit the position is a Democrat. Could or would Hillary challenge him in the next state primary? Against an incumbent in a state where she has no history? And what states, other than Illinois, Connecticut (Yale graduate), or Arkansas (not a chance), would she not be considered a carpetbagger in?:confused:

She won't run right away, there will have to be a special election... so perhaps vacant was the wrong word; lets say position in which an angle has been created for her to run and not totally appear like a carpet bagger by 1998

[joea64]

Even marching at her funeral in civilian dress, rather than formal royal uniforms, resulted in problems.

Wasn't the decision to de-emphasize a military role (including fancy uniforms) at Diana's funeral in favor of recognition of her work with numerous charities and NGO's done in part at the request of her siblings, and in part from a view that that was what she herself would have preferred? Even the commander of the detachment that bore her coffin had been decorated for his work in clearing landmines (which was one of her especial causes in the last few years of her life).

[usertron2020]

Wasn't the decision to de-emphasize a military role (including fancy uniforms) at Diana's funeral in favor of recognition of her work with numerous charities and NGO's done in part at the request of her siblings, and in part from a view that that was what she herself would have preferred? Even the commander of the detachment that bore her coffin had been decorated for his work in clearing landmines (which was one of her especial causes in the last few years of her life).

Thank you for clearing that up.:) That wasn't the impression I was getting from the news coverage at the time, but no doubt the press was trying its all to shift blame to the royals for Diana's death, when everyone knew it was the "stalkerazzi":mad: that was responsible. I for one do not blame the driver or security man. The pursuers had no business following them at such speeds. Chasing people on motorcycles at speeds of over 80-90 mph is asking for disaster.:mad::mad::mad:

[NoOneFamous]

Thank you for clearing that up.:) That wasn't the impression I was getting from the news coverage at the time, but no doubt the press was trying its all to shift blame to the royals for Diana's death, when everyone knew it was the "stalkerazzi":mad: that was responsible. I for one do not blame the driver or security man. The pursuers had no business following them at such speeds. Chasing people on motorcycles at speeds of over 80-90 mph is asking for disaster.:mad::mad::mad:

I blame Diana.

[usertron2020]

I blame Diana.

Do not speak ill of the dead.:mad: At least Rat walked away without a scratch.

[NoOneFamous]

She got into a car being driven by a drunk, she knew that her car was being chased by paparazzi and she didn't buckle up. She died from being stupid.

[usertron2020]

She got into a car being driven by a drunk, she knew that her car was being chased by paparazzi and she didn't buckle up. She died from being stupid.

She did not personally administer an alcohol test on the driver, and tens of thousands of people over the last century have died due to a failure to buckle up. Calling her stupid AFTER she has already paid the ultimate price for her mistake is infantile and makes me question your age.:mad: Call her foolish if you wish.

[Superwes]

I really enjoy this timeline, keep up the good work bro!

[BlairWitch749]

100 days that changed the face of America (Chapter 31 Part IV) I've very pleased with how things have turned out. I could not be happier.” - Alan Mulally on his time at Boeing

January 20th 1997 Washington DC (Victor Lewinsky is 18 weeks old)

Alan Mulally was one of the more outside the box picks for President Phil Gramm when selecting people to service his administration. There was a bit of a collective who? in the media but Gramm knew the man, and knew what he was capable of.

Mulally had graduated at the top of his class as an aeronautical engineering student at the University of Kansas in 1969, and later recieved a masters in managment from MIT. He had been cherry picked right out of college by Boeing who had fast tracked him to management, where he had been pivotal in the development of Boeing's fleet for nearly 25 years. Prior to Gramm picking him Mulally had been promoted to vice president of all airplane development and seemed to be on the fast track for CEO (if another company didn't poach him first). Aviation weekly and other magazines had done profiles of him over the years and based on interviews of his collegues, superiors and subordinates it seemed he was widely regarded as an engineering and management genius

http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos/2002/12/20/BizBoeingMainFri_t440.jpg?9e2a24ba44807f8f9b96aad7 c4082bf6ded075dc
Alan Mulally was taken from his high powered position at Boeing aircraft and made secretary of transportation

Phil Gram had seen him testify to senate committees on transportation and military procurement numerous times in his various management capacities and Mulally had made a very strong impression on him.

At a dinner party the year before hosted in Dallas to celebrate Southwest Airlines purchase of 20 of Mulally jets they had met 1 on 1 for the first time, and Gramm told Mulally that if he made it to the White House that he wanted the Boeing manager to come work for him.

Mulally indicated that he wasn't a Republican and had voted for Bill Clinton; to which Gramm laughed at and reminded Mulally that he himself used to be a democrat. "I will need good managers Alan, and you are one of the best, I'd be asking you to serve the country not the party"

http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/files/legacy/Phil%20Gramm%20at%20NASA.jpg
Modernizing and improving America's transport network was a top priority for President Gramm who saw the dramatically positive impact this had had for President Eisenhower and other presidents

The level of qualification that Mulally brought to the senate confirmation hearings was overwhelming, and his elequent and direct answers to questions from members of both parties saw him confirmed with wide support

Given a largely free hand by President Gramm, Mulally took on first what he knew best aviation. From all of his traveling related to his work for Boeing, Mulally was acutely aware of the neglected nature of many of the nation's airports; the combination of actual filth and nastiness at the facilities themselves, the obsolete equipment, the frequent delays, the inability to cope with even minor weather problems without horrific disruption, the lack of runways to meet the cargo and transport needs of a growing economy all shouted out to him as problems that required his utmost attention

He chose to tackle the big problems first namely O'Hare, JFK, La Gaurdia and LAX. Mulally made a series of speaches across the country to various business groups pointing to the large amount of delays and problems at the big airports, stating that the new and massively booming internet purchase market required faster and cheaper cargo shipment by air. Mulally received his first wish from Newt Gingrich's congress 40 days after he was sworn in; 6.933 billion dollars was appropriated to modernize John F Kennedy Airport in New York. This money went into several projects:

1. The radar, control and computer equipment for the tower and terminals was upgraded, with the computers put into Michael Dell's leasing program so that the control towers would have the newest, fastest and best computer hardware coming in, over rolling three year periods
2. Ground was broken on the "sky train" project which would connect the aiport to Jamacia train station and thus allow people to get from Penn Station to the airport (this would be completed in 2001). This would remove large amounts of traffic from the Van Wick expressway, especially since Mulally was able to convince Governor Pataki to work with the MTA to keep the sky train cheap regardless of other fair increases
3. 2 additional runways would be added, by juggling taxiways and using land filling techniques on the perimeter of the airport where it met Jamacia bay; this went a long way to reducing congestion and delays
4. Heating lines, deicing equipment, foul weather equipment and foul weather lighting where all improved and modernized to reduce the airport's problems in winter
5. Special low interest loans where given to American Airlines and Delta to modernize their terminals buildings to make them more like shopping malls as opposed to cattle houses
6. Existing runways where widened to handle the next generation of aircraft coming from Boeing and Airbus

http://www.seattlepi.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=622659&width=628&height=471
Alan Mulally's first successful project was a vast modernization of John F Kennedy international airport in New York

http://www.visitingdc.com/images/jfk-airport-address.jpg
JFK became vastly more effecient and easier to get to thanks to the tranportation department's investment

JFK went from the 2nd worst airport in the country with only 71 percent of it's flights arriving on time, to the 3rd best with 93 percent of it's flights arriving on time in 5 years.

to be continued

thoughts?

[Dunois]

Nice to see transportation getting a boost, parts of the air infrastructure could also be privatised or at least corporatised to a degree as well in order to improve management and free it up from political pressures. Still more money on the not visible but very important ATC systems and such as a good thing!

[historybuff]

Nice idea with JFK. Wonder if you'll focus on Gram's other cabinet members.

[Gridley]

The irony of showering praise on Mulally while he's standing behind a model of the infamous Sonic Cruiser is rather impressive.

[NoOneFamous]

good choice

[BlairWitch749]

The irony of showering praise on Mulally while he's standing behind a model of the infamous Sonic Cruiser is rather impressive.

one has their flops; Edison tried 300 different filliments before he made a proper lightbulb

[Gridley]

one has their flops; Edison tried 300 different filliments before he made a proper lightbulb

Yes, though just the idea of developing a plane to fly IN the transition zone is... questionable.

The best explanation I've ever heard (unofficially, naturally) is that the Sonic Cruiser was a shell project designed to make Airbus waste money on developing an equivalent.

[usertron2020]

Biggest problem with privatization? Lowest Bidder. You get what you pay for.

[FDW]

Are we going to see more money going towards non-car Mass Transit systems?

[usertron2020]

Are we going to see more money going towards non-car Mass Transit systems?

The day Detroit sinks into Lake Erie. And every foreign car manufacturer lobbyist on K Street commits mass hara-kiri.

[FDW]

The day Detroit sinks into Lake Erie. And every foreign car manufacturer lobbyist on K Street commits mass hara-kiri.

I think I'll let BW answer this…

[thekingsguard]

Hooray, and update!

[usertron2020]

Bump. filler.

[jerseyrules]

Bump. filler.

I second this approval rating

[usertron2020]

bump. bump. bump.

[Hendryk]

Bump. filler.

I second this approval rating

bump. bump. bump.
There comes a point when posting nothing but "bump" in a given thread becomes spamming.

[Oannes Rex]

Ah, I smell a second marriage and a run again in 2004:D

An interesting question: Will Monica want to marry Bill? After all, he cheated on his first wife with several women over a relatively short period. How will she know he won't eventually cheat on her?

[BlairWitch749]

An interesting question: Will Monica want to marry Bill? After all, he cheated on his first wife with several women over a relatively short period. How will she know he won't eventually cheat on her?

up to mrs bw her tangent :)

sorry for the lack of updates; my outline was only up to the election so the rest has to be developed

also; my promotion at work along with the baby have drastically reduced my creative writing opportunity

[MarshalBraginsky]

Also, does Bill Clinton still get his approval from Congress regarding the NATO mission in Yugoslavia after his character assassination? I'm still wondering if the people in Congress would still trust him to make a good decision after Monica gave birth to Victor.

[BlairWitch749]

Also, does Bill Clinton still get his approval from Congress regarding the NATO mission in Yugoslavia after his character assassination? I'm still wondering if the people in Congress would still trust him to make a good decision after Monica gave birth to Victor.

Bill has lost his job


Userton,

Lauch Faircloth only lost by 4 percent; one would hope to god that the democrat vetting process (which would have to be put on steriods following the clinton implosion in this time line) destroys John Edwards in a primary....and a democrat without Edward's personal wealth may or may not be able to get the hog farmer out of the senate

[MarshalBraginsky]

Bill has lost his job


Userton,

Lauch Faircloth only lost by 4 percent; one would hope to god that the democrat vetting process (which would have to be put on steriods following the clinton implosion in this time line) destroys John Edwards in a primary....and a democrat without Edward's personal wealth may or may not be able to get the hog farmer out of the senate

Finally, so I guess that the NATO mission would be in jeopardy then. So much relief for the Serbs if they were going to be on the receiving end of the NATO airstrikes. Curiously enough, I'd imagine another American president trying to pull the same foreign affairs stunt as Clinton did in OTL.

[usertron2020]

Usertron,

Lauch Faircloth only lost by 4 percent; one would hope to god that the democrat vetting process (which would have to be put on steriods following the clinton implosion in this time line) destroys John Edwards in a primary....and a democrat without Edward's personal wealth may or may not be able to get the hog farmer out of the senate

Considering Faircloth's behavior in his one term as a senator would indicate that only his running in North Carolina got him elected in the first place. IMVHO, I can easily see the wheels coming off the wagon for him again ITTL. But hey, it's your TL.