Monica's baby, the ruin of Clinton - a TL

[pnyckqx]

The suits (Chapter 15) Truth will come out eventually - Ken Starr

Hartford CT October 6th 1996 (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

President Clinton and his staff where in a state approaching panic as the news filtered in to them that Matt Drudge and Sean Hannity had leaked the existence of his affair with Monica Lewinsky and the birth of a son.

Clinton had been in something of denial about the situation, hoping and praying that since Tripp hadn't said anything thus far that she might not say anything at all. But the moment he had dreaded the last 4 weeks had come to a head and worst of all just hours before his first debate with Gramm.

At 512 PM whilst Clinton and his speech writing team where desperately trying to come up with a reasonable response and listening to the sickening interview with Hannity Drudge and Tripp (they where sure it would come up at the debate) Eljay Bowron, the director of the secret service came in saying he needed to speak to Clinton urgently and privately. Clinton told him to make it quick and sent his aides from the room

Mr President I'm sure you have heard the news?
Yes...
My men have found that Monica Lewinsky and the child are at the Watergate condo complex... staying with her mother... I want to get two teams over there immediately
Christ the fucking Watergate...the press will love to draw on that analogy... is that really necessary Eljay?
Yes sir, the media is starting to build up there since the internet story broke, and its only going to get worse
I really don't want the secret service there Eljay, it implies a lot... the suites and earpieces will send a powerful message...can't we keep the media back with the capitol police... I want to be as discreet as possible
Discreet is impossible in this situation Mr. President; you can't hold back hundreds of reporters and camera men without some visible presence... and the capitol police have big freaking mouths, you can at least count on my teams not give interviews to the Washington Post
This is going to look really bad Eljay
It'll look worse if the woman and her baby get mobbed or injured by the crowd, I need your authorization for this now
... OK...(deep in thought and worry) keep them safe Eljay... do it as quietly as possible
we will handle it sir (Eljay left the room to scramble his teams to the Watergate)

to be continued...

thoughts?
Smart move.

It doesn't admit or deny anything, but it can be spun as an attempt to keep Lewinsky and child from running into trouble from any wacko out there.

It also keeps the media away.

[mrmandias]

Good for President Clinton. A stand up move to prioritize the safety of mother and child over his political prospects, such as they are at this time.

The suits (Chapter 15) Truth will come out eventually - Ken Starr

Hartford CT October 6th 1996 (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

President Clinton and his staff where in a state approaching panic as the news filtered in to them that Matt Drudge and Sean Hannity had leaked the existence of his affair with Monica Lewinsky and the birth of a son.

Clinton had been in something of denial about the situation, hoping and praying that since Tripp hadn't said anything thus far that she might not say anything at all. But the moment he had dreaded the last 4 weeks had come to a head and worst of all just hours before his first debate with Gramm.

At 512 PM whilst Clinton and his speech writing team where desperately trying to come up with a reasonable response and listening to the sickening interview with Hannity Drudge and Tripp (they where sure it would come up at the debate) Eljay Bowron, the director of the secret service came in saying he needed to speak to Clinton urgently and privately. Clinton told him to make it quick and sent his aides from the room

Mr President I'm sure you have heard the news?
Yes...
My men have found that Monica Lewinsky and the child are at the Watergate condo complex... staying with her mother... I want to get two teams over there immediately
Christ the fucking Watergate...the press will love to draw on that analogy... is that really necessary Eljay?
Yes sir, the media is starting to build up there since the internet story broke, and its only going to get worse
I really don't want the secret service there Eljay, it implies a lot... the suites and earpieces will send a powerful message...can't we keep the media back with the capitol police... I want to be as discreet as possible
Discreet is impossible in this situation Mr. President; you can't hold back hundreds of reporters and camera men without some visible presence... and the capitol police have big freaking mouths, you can at least count on my teams not give interviews to the Washington Post
This is going to look really bad Eljay
It'll look worse if the woman and her baby get mobbed or injured by the crowd, I need your authorization for this now
... OK...(deep in thought and worry) keep them safe Eljay... do it as quietly as possible
we will handle it sir (Eljay left the room to scramble his teams to the Watergate)

to be continued...

thoughts?

[mrmandias]

Not a chance. He's doomed.

Bill, is going to have to pull every bag of tricks he has to recover, but I say he can do it, as most people who would care sat out the vote anyway.

[bguy]

Is Clinton even going to go through with the debate at this point? Postponing it would seem to be the prudent move under the circumstances.

[Chengar Qordath]

Is Clinton even going to go through with the debate at this point? Postponing it would seem to be the prudent move under the circumstances.

Postponing the debate would just call more attention to the scandal.

[bguy]

Postponing the debate would just call more attention to the scandal.

The President of the United States had an out of wedlock child with a White House intern and is caught on tape admitting to it. I think attention to the scandal is pretty much already at 100%. Postponing the debate won't make things any worse for Clinton whereas going to the debate unprepared almost certainly will. Clinton will definitely be asked about the affair at the debate and no matter what answer he gives, it will end up being a sound byte in Republican ads for the rest of the election. Plus it's not just political ruin Clinton is facing if he goes into the debate unprepared. It is very possible Hillary will divorce him over this, so he needs to talk to his lawyers before making any public statements. I don't know who the White House counsel was at this point, but I'm sure they will be begging him to postpone.

[thekingsguard]

<munches on popcorn> keep the fireworks coming!

[Commissar]

Not a chance. He's doomed.

I disagree, it was well known he was a philanderer since the Flowers case made headlines and it did nothing.

And lets not forget he can point out to his Congressional critics their own affairs and love childs.

[NoOneFamous]

Paging Newt Gingrich and John McCain

[John Farson]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that.

Any chance Clinton might pull a Grover Cleveland in this?

[Snowstalker]

Maybe. He's called Slick Willy for a reason.

[BlairWitch749]

The President of the United States had an out of wedlock child with a White House intern and is caught on tape admitting to it. I think attention to the scandal is pretty much already at 100%. Postponing the debate won't make things any worse for Clinton whereas going to the debate unprepared almost certainly will. Clinton will definitely be asked about the affair at the debate and no matter what answer he gives, it will end up being a sound byte in Republican ads for the rest of the election. Plus it's not just political ruin Clinton is facing if he goes into the debate unprepared. It is very possible Hillary will divorce him over this, so he needs to talk to his lawyers before making any public statements. I don't know who the White House counsel was at this point, but I'm sure they will be begging him to postpone.

the white house council at this point is jack quinn who was a clever and ruthless political operator with a law degree from georgetown... he is a hardcore lobbyist now with ed guilissipe

[joea64]

the white house council at this point is jack quinn who was a clever and ruthless political operator with a law degree from georgetown... he is a hardcore lobbyist now with ed guilissipe

And Ed Gillespie is a well-known Republican operative...I guess it really is true what they say about lawyers being hired guns. (Speaking as one with a law degree).

[BlairWitch749]

And Ed Gillespie is a well-known Republican operative...I guess it really is true what they say about lawyers being hired guns. (Speaking as one with a law degree).

they have a "one stop shop" consulting firm... the model has proven very effective

[marcus_aurelius]

Bill has to admit the whole thing, even though he would still be screwed. You can't very well deny it if it's on tape... at least he can go out as a man willing to take responsibility...

Marc A

[Commissar]

Bill has to admit the whole thing, even though he would still be screwed. You can't very well deny it if it's on tape... at least he can go out as a man willing to take responsibility...

Marc A

Nah, he isn't screwed, if he truly was, he will be taking most of Congress with him by exposing their own affairs and love childs as revenge.

[BlairWitch749]

Nah, he isn't screwed, if he truly was, he will be taking most of Congress with him by exposing their own affairs and love childs as revenge.

a different standard was applied to him in otl and now its far more scandelous

[marcus_aurelius]

Nah, he isn't screwed, if he truly was, he will be taking most of Congress with him by exposing their own affairs and love childs as revenge.

That sunded a lot like J. Edge Hoover... :eek::eek:

Marc A

[pnyckqx]

Nah, he isn't screwed, if he truly was, he will be taking most of Congress with him by exposing their own affairs and love childs as revenge.That's assuming that Congress is going to try for an impeachment. Since ITTL the scandal comes out just before the 1996 election, congress really doesn't have to do anything at this point.

The media will do their work for them.

Assuming Clinton wins reelection then all bets are off on how he'll respond.

[pnyckqx]

a different standard was applied to him in otl and now its far more scandelousYeah, a different standard...Unlike Clinton, Gingrich and Livingston resigned. [/sarcasm]

The media is the media. Sometimes you can tame them. Sometimes you think you have them tamed until they bite your arm --or pick another part of the anatomy-- off.

[pnyckqx]

That sunded a lot like J. Edge Hoover... :eek::eek:

Marc AOver 900 FBI files found in the White House that are as of yet to be explained OTL.

[mrmandias]

Nah, he isn't screwed, if he truly was, he will be taking most of Congress with him by exposing their own affairs and love childs as revenge.

Probably not, but that would be awesome. C'mon, BW, make my dreams come true.

[mrmandias]

That's assuming that Congress is going to try for an impeachment. Since ITTL the scandal comes out just before the 1996 election, congress really doesn't have to do anything at this point.

The media will do their work for them.

Assuming Clinton wins reelection then all bets are off on how he'll respond.


If Clinton wins the election (he won't), the the Republicans won't impeach him because the nation will have just repudiated that option. Also, OTL, the fact that Clinton could be accused of perjury made a huge difference for impeachment. TTL, while the scandal is worse, the crime is less, so impeachment is less likely anyway.

[BlairWitch749]

A motherly duty (Chapter 16) - “In the Bible it says they asked Jesus how many times you should forgive, and he said 70 times 7. Well, I want you all to know that I'm keeping a chart.” - Hillary Clinton

Hartford CT October 6th 1996 543PM

First lady Hillary Rodham Clinton sat alone in a room at the hotel sipping a small glass of Vodka on the rocks courtesy of the mini bar. This business with Hannity, Drudge, Tripp, Lewinsky and the baby had thrown her off footing.

It wasn't Bill's first trist; she was smart enough and honest enough with herself to know that he had a number of lovers outside the marriage. The charm had worn off more than a decade ago, but for the convenience of politics and indeed in order to keep the family together for Chelsea she had weathered the storm and personal affronts

This however was something entirely different, Bill hadn't just fooled around with this intern, he had knocked her up and they had him admitting to it on tape. At first Hillary wanted to storm into Bill's room, break up his pre debate meetings and let him know what a bastard he was. Something held her back, she didn't know what it was but her anger, disgust and personal embarassment continued to simmer until there was an icy fury just below the surface

Her brand new state of the art Motorola "startac" rang, still keeping her glass she answered it, and the small surface covering the icy race started to melt as she heard her 16 year old daughter crying into the phone.

Chelsea Clinton was home in Washington, she couldn't attend the debate due to several upcoming exams going on in her high school. Junior year was important her mother had said, it would frame her entrance into college

She had gone over to a friend's house, and inbetween studying they where chatting on AIM (AOL instant messenger) with several boys from their school and just after 5 pm, one of them forwarded her a link to the drudge report's banner headline. She read the article and listened to the audio clips of her father's admission of the child, his nastiness and bitterness... in a way Chelsea felt some pity for Monica Lewinsky... her father was a charmer who had a powerful effect on women and Chelsea was old enough to know he had strayed from the marriage more than once in the past

At the same time, whatever pity she might have felt for Monica was by far and away overwhelmed by thoughts of concern for her mother who was going to go through this in a much harder way. Try as she might Chelsea could not stem the flow of tears, she wanted to be calm before she called her mother, to be a rock she could rely on; but the emotion and the shame where overwhelming and her hands seemed to dial by themselves

The conversation was hushed between tears. Hillary only half absorbed Chelsea's fears and concerns... the hurt, that this trist had inflicted on their daughter was the final straw... Hillary would not speak to Bill about this, this time she wouldn't stand behind him and enable him to brush of the accusations...he would need to answer for his actions by himself she decided putting the glass down. She packed her backs and slammed the door behind her... closing the room; and her past

to be continued

thoughts?

http://funaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/raz.jpg
Hillary's state of the art motorola startac

http://guestofaguest.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/aol1.jpg
Chelsea Clinton connects to her AIM account

[Cam the not-so-great]

Looks like Hillary has had enough..and who can blame her. The vultures are beginning to circle over Bill's political career... :D

[historybuff]

Wow.

Bill's goose is cooked.

I'm imagining a divorce at some point.

[NoOneFamous]

Bill's marriage is toast, not his political career.

[lothaw]

Looks like it's all over but the shouting for Mr. Clinton. Politically and domesticly.

Poor kid too, his whole life is going to be in the shadow of Bill's lower anatomy.

[marcus_aurelius]

Oww, I guess "that's gonna hurt" would be an understatement? ;)

Now I really want to to see how Bill dig himself out of this one... :)

Marc A

[jmill]

bump.........................

[Georgepatton]

Hoo-boy. That's gonna hurt.

[pnyckqx]

Bill's marriage is toast, not his political career.Maybe not.

Without Hilary's support Bill doesn't have the gender gap. He loses the woman's vote.

Love Hilary or hate her, as she went, so did the female vote.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Heh. Bill's marriage and his political career will be over with this. :D

[BlairWitch749]

Maybe not.

Without Hilary's support Bill doesn't have the gender gap. He loses the woman's vote.

Love Hilary or hate her, as she went, so did the female vote.


I think with the scandal going to the next level, that hillary's support might not be enough... suburban mothers will take this a bit differently than hit otl affair, and they should

gramm and abraham might be better at attracting women than Dole was

[RogueBeaver]

I think with the scandal going to the next level, that hillary's support might not be enough... suburban mothers will take this a bit differently than hit otl affair, and they should

gramm and abraham might be better at attracting women than Dole was

Keep it coming. Unlike Cleveland, Clinton doesn't have an otherwise unimpeachable (pun intended) record of personal or political integrity.

[Cylon_Number_14]

Wow, I just red this whole TL in one sitting and was on the Edge of My Seat. I am definitely surprised because I usually don't like the story-style timelines...

[EWHM]

Thing is, the economy is still quite good in this scenario, and the US isn't involved in any major conflicts. That's historically a very good place for a president to be. This scandal will hurt like hell, but if Clinton can resist his urge to try to weasel out of it, I think he'll survive it with a not horrible chance of reelection. He'll probably need to do something nonlinear though to carry it off. Here's my suggestion for this alternate Bill Clinton.
<Start 'feel your pain emoting here'---something Clinton was VERY good at>
I made a horrible mistake with <fill in the blank with whatever focus groups the best, her name, a vulnerable young woman, Ms Lewinski, your trust in me as President, etc>
Lead with that in the opening
A few random apologies here with as much sincerity as can be mustered, something Clinton was very good at
Some reference to Christ/Christianity, and sexual temptation being a cross to bear for many powerful men
Now the nonlinear
The question of why he didn't just have the problem---fixed---i.e., an abortion and cover up. More emoting, then a reference that he knew that his son was born in the image of God (imago dei?---don't know how well the Latin would focus group). More emoting. I realize that I have meddled in the machinery of death far too long. More 'life is Sacred' emoting. Follow with a firm position strongly against abortion in the late 2nd and 3rd trimesters and a pledge to end the practice in the US and to stop supporting it with taxpayer money asap.
If he does this and carries through on his promise, he'll have totally splintered the existing Republican coalition in an 'only Nixon can go to China' manner. Much of the religious right isn't conservative in an economic sense. Butterfly could have Gore winning handily in 2000 also.

[BlairWitch749]

Thing is, the economy is still quite good in this scenario, and the US isn't involved in any major conflicts. That's historically a very good place for a president to be. This scandal will hurt like hell, but if Clinton can resist his urge to try to weasel out of it, I think he'll survive it with a not horrible chance of reelection. He'll probably need to do something nonlinear though to carry it off. Here's my suggestion for this alternate Bill Clinton.
<Start 'feel your pain emoting here'---something Clinton was VERY good at>
I made a horrible mistake with <fill in the blank with whatever focus groups the best, her name, a vulnerable young woman, Ms Lewinski, your trust in me as President, etc>
Lead with that in the opening
A few random apologies here with as much sincerity as can be mustered, something Clinton was very good at
Some reference to Christ/Christianity, and sexual temptation being a cross to bear for many powerful men
Now the nonlinear
The question of why he didn't just have the problem---fixed---i.e., an abortion and cover up. More emoting, then a reference that he knew that his son was born in the image of God (imago dei?---don't know how well the Latin would focus group). More emoting. I realize that I have meddled in the machinery of death far too long. More 'life is Sacred' emoting. Follow with a firm position strongly against abortion in the late 2nd and 3rd trimesters and a pledge to end the practice in the US and to stop supporting it with taxpayer money asap.
If he does this and carries through on his promise, he'll have totally splintered the existing Republican coalition in an 'only Nixon can go to China' manner. Much of the religious right isn't conservative in an economic sense. Butterfly could have Gore winning handily in 2000 also.


Going restrictive on abortion isn't going to make him any friends with NOW or the Emily's list crowd who he will desperately need... if he is going to lose suburban housewifes to Gramm or staying home due to his transgressions, he can't afford to alienate young single women who live in cities

[mrmandias]

Going restrictive on abortion isn't going to make him any friends with NOW or the Emily's list crowd who he will desperately need... if he is going to lose suburban housewifes to Gramm or staying home due to his transgressions, he can't afford to alienate young single women who live in cities

Probably it wouldn't quite work, but the idea has some potential. These are Clinton's own folks, so he can sell at least some of them on the idea that the great, great majority of abortions happen in the first trimester and that taking late-term abortions off the table effectively defuses the pro-life movement. And its voters he has to persuade, not ideologues. I mean, what, NOW is going to vote for Gramm or stay home? Not likely.

[pnyckqx]

Going restrictive on abortion isn't going to make him any friends with NOW or the Emily's list crowd who he will desperately need... if he is going to lose suburban housewifes to Gramm or staying home due to his transgressions, he can't afford to alienate young single women who live in citiesYou need Dick "Toe Sucker" Morris to do some push polling. You need to get him to do that before he leaves for more $$ on the Republican side [/cynicism]

[EWHM]

BlairWitch,
Going semi-restrictive on abortion (the position I outlined for him is really just one that's common in most Euro countries) might well piss off the NOW types and a fair number of unmarried women, but where are they going to go? Pretty much the whole religious right will demobilize after this, quite possibly returning to a retreatist position culturally. A very large fraction of the Republican get out the vote volunteers come from this source---it's their analog of the unions for the Democrats. Hard to fight a real campaign without fired-up foot soldiers. It's a risky move but IMO, it's a guaranteed win for any Democrat who doesn't need to worry about being primaried----especially now, post 2000, where the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency and basically did jack for the pro-lifers, a Dem could make the argument that the Republicans have talked big, but they don't want a solution to the problem, just the issue to campaign on.

[BlairWitch749]

BlairWitch,
Going semi-restrictive on abortion (the position I outlined for him is really just one that's common in most Euro countries) might well piss off the NOW types and a fair number of unmarried women, but where are they going to go? Pretty much the whole religious right will demobilize after this, quite possibly returning to a retreatist position culturally. A very large fraction of the Republican get out the vote volunteers come from this source---it's their analog of the unions for the Democrats. Hard to fight a real campaign without fired-up foot soldiers. It's a risky move but IMO, it's a guaranteed win for any Democrat who doesn't need to worry about being primaried----especially now, post 2000, where the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency and basically did jack for the pro-lifers, a Dem could make the argument that the Republicans have talked big, but they don't want a solution to the problem, just the issue to campaign on.

I didn't suggest they would go to Gramm... but they could stay home if Clinton offers a more restrictive abortion program on top of the problems his affair will down stream through the party itself... I mean how much is Nancy Pelosi or Charlie Rangle going to like bringing that little bit of legislation home?

And I also think you are underestimating the timing factor here... the election is only 4 weeks away, plus the republicans control both houses of congress AND are away from Washington campaigning for the upcoming election... I don't see Newt or Bob Dole doing him any favors in this regard by taking up something he is campaigning for in that little window of time (especially when they have a shot of free reign to restrict abortion and pursue a hard core right wing agenda if Gramm wins)

Its an interesting suggestion, but throwing a core dem constituency to the wolves when you will be campaigning from a position of weakness seems like a bad idea to me...if anything he will desperately need to mobilize single women since he will incur losses in suburban married women due to his slip up

and the religious right turning less political is probably asb with a pod of 1996 :p... I mean they still have separation of church and state to tear down amongst there other priorities (spoiler: I'll be covering certain activities of the religious right leading up to the election in future updates)

[vitemajoren]

I think that it is quite interesting that a no-event can arouse
this kind of interest, who cares that a mistress of the president
give birth to a child except perhaps the president, his wife and
the mother? Then again I am an European we simply do not care
about such nonsense.

[pnyckqx]

I didn't suggest they would go to Gramm... but they could stay home if Clinton offers a more restrictive abortion program on top of the problems his affair will down stream through the party itself... I mean how much is Nancy Pelosi or Charlie Rangle going to like bringing that little bit of legislation home?

And I also think you are underestimating the timing factor here... the election is only 4 weeks away, plus the republicans control both houses of congress AND are away from Washington campaigning for the upcoming election... I don't see Newt or Bob Dole doing him any favors in this regard by taking up something he is campaigning for in that little window of time (especially when they have a shot of free reign to restrict abortion and pursue a hard core right wing agenda if Gramm wins)

Its an interesting suggestion, but throwing a core dem constituency to the wolves when you will be campaigning from a position of weakness seems like a bad idea to me...if anything he will desperately need to mobilize single women since he will incur losses in suburban married women due to his slip up

and the religious right turning less political is probably asb with a pod of 1996 :p... I mean they still have separation of church and state to tear down amongst there other priorities (spoiler: I'll be covering certain activities of the religious right leading up to the election in future updates)The so-called religious right was from it's inception, much sound and fury signifying nothing. Even the Republicans realized this. Cal Thomas admitted this in his book on the subject a few years ago. Thomas was the Vice President in charge of communications of Moral Majority. They were a paper tiger.

That said, the LAST thing that they wanted was to tear down was church-state separation. Even with Bush43's Faith based inititatives OTL, main stream religious/political right commentators like James Dobson were warning against participation.

For goodness sake, Pat Robertson endorsed twice-divorced, cross-dressing pro-choice 9/11 chickenhawk draft dodger, Rudy in 2008.

Concerning the religious right, the facts and track record doesn't justify the fanatical paranoid rhetoric that it gets from the leftists and people who were more anti religious than political.

[BlairWitch749]

The representation (Chapter 17) - "The presumption of innocence begins with the retainer - Ron Kuby"

Washington DC October 6th 1996 617 PM (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

Gloria Allred was one of the most well known lawyers in America. She had massive reputation for defense of celebrity and or notorious clients. she happened to be in Washington on that day on a case for her firm.

One of her staffers had presented the DRUDGE REPORT article to her about Monica's baby. After scanning through and listening to the audio recordings she was stunned; but at the same time she saw opportunity.

Gloria Allred knew Marcia Lewinksy, her firm had done some work on behalf of Marcia's publisher and they had met several times socially in the California charity circuit in the 80's. A flurry of phone calls back to her office in California produced Marcia Lewinsky's home telephone number

The call was one that Gloria had made many times before... reaching out to a famous person who was going to need legal representation; and she was the best in the business

Seeing Gloria's firm name in the caller ID and thinking it might be concerning her work Marcia Lewinsky picked up the phone taking a break from comforting her daughter whose eyes where glued to the news networks outing her and Victor.

Gloria: I'm not calling you about one of your books today Marcia, I want to help Monica and the baby... they are going to need legal counsel
Marcia: Help them with what, their lives have been ruined by this slimeball Linda Tripp and Matt Drudge; its just awful
Gloria: Don't worry Marcia, Monica has rights, she was recorded without permission, she can definently sue these people, sue them and win
Marcia: Money isn't going to give my daughter her reputation back, or give my grandson a normal life Gloria... nor is it going to make that crowd of reporters outside my building go away
Gloria: Of course not, but it will get better I promise, and we need to address that group of reporters, the longer nobody says anything the more out of control this will get and you and Monica will never be able to leave your house
Marcia: This is so overwhelming, Monica is so distraught, I don't know what to do
Gloria: Let me help you Marcia, I have experience in high profile cases, I know how to talk to the press. I was able to keep the press from stalking Nicole Brown Simpson's children and I can help you
Marcia: The baby has a doctor's appointment tomorrow, and Monica is just beside herself that she can't leave the house with him to take him tomorrow...(Marcia began to sniffle and cry for her daughter and grandson's suffering)
Gloria: I can make sure she can get there Marcia, I'm already in Washington, I can be at your place in 20 minutes. Your a writer, you and I can come up with enough for a press conference within a couple hours; then I will work my magic to make sure Monica can take the baby tomorrow to his doctor's appointment without being approached, you have my word
Marcia: A press conference....... god I don't know about that
Gloria: Remember, the longer we say nothing, the more speculation will arise and the more out of control this will get... its important that Monica's story gets out there as soon as possible and that the vultures have something for their copy tomorrow so they don't set up camp permanently outside your house
Marcia:.....al-alright Gloria and your sure you can make it ok for her to go to the doctor tomorrow
Gloria: You have my word marcia
Marcia: Ok come here as soon as you can

to be continued...

thoughts?

[historybuff]

Here I was, thinking this couldn't get any crazier. Clinton's going down.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Blair, you're an excellent writer and this was a good post.

I can't really say more than that.

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

"It´s all a right-wing conspiracy!"

:D

[Orville_third]

In regards to abortion- John Edwards's opinion among the right wasn't raised when he encouraged Rielle Hunter not to get an abortion.
As for Dick Morris, is this taking place before or after he got fired for having sex with a prostitute?

[NoOneFamous]

Gloria is a talented media whore

[pnyckqx]

As for Dick Morris, is this taking place before or after he got fired for having sex with a prostitute?Just about at this time. Morris resigned August 29, 1996 over the scandal.

[BlairWitch749]

Certainly not the day we were expecting (Chapter 18) -Washington is a mean town where human sacrifice has been raised to an art form.- Dick Morris

Outside the Watergate Condo Complex Washington DC October 6th 1996 715pm (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

Gloria Allred worked her magic in record time, whilst one of her paralegals drove her to the Watergate, she was already drafting her first statement to the press. She and her staff would come in though a service gate in the back to avoid the press seeing her come in which would fuel even more speculation... no she needed to control not only the information that would come out of the Lewinsky camp but also the flow at which the press would receive it

She introduced herself to Monica and Victor, but thankfully her mother had explained not only who Gloria was and why she was there; but had impressed on Monica that it was vital she put her trust in her.

Gloria and Marcia poured over the text of what would be said to the media. "Access is very important, we need to let them know there is a good and strong filter so they get the idea that its not worth their time to camp out here" and within 20 minutes there where ready. Gloria's assistants had been coordinating with the secret service stating that there would be a statement to the press, and that the Lewinsky's wanted the media to be able to come closer to the entrance for a short time

When the secret service allowed the media to be coralled closer to the building, the various reporters and camera people assumed they would get to see Monica Lewinsky or better yet the child, but their dreams of perfect unfiltered copy where destroyed when Gloria Allred stepped out and asked for their attention. "fucking Gloria Allred, well there goes any chance of getting jack shit" was the first sentence out of NBC's local reporter. It was well known that her clients where highly disciplined and that if you saw her, she was going to control access.

I guess this is certainly not the day we were expecting. For those of you who don't know me, I am Gloria Allred, and I have been signed on as the legal counsel for Monica Lewinsky and her son Victor.

First things first, Monica and her entire family are shocked and deeply disturbed by the vicious release of information about her personal life, and the unauthorized wire tapping of calls she made from home and her place of work. Linda Tripp, Matt Drudge, Sean Hannity and anyone else associated with them has invaded my client's privacy, she can and she will seek justice against them

And to the questions put out; yes Monica was involved in a romantic relationship with President Clinton, and the result of that relationship was her son Victor. We do not assume that the President will seek visitation or custody; however, if he does, we are prepared to negotiate with his lawyers to find a suitable arrangement for all parties

Monica herself will take no questions or interviews at this time, and I would greatly appreciate if you respect the privacy of her mother's neighbor's and of her grandchild by not camping out here.

(A flurry of questions where hurled at Gloria who was blinded by hundreds of camera flashes)

That is it, no further comment no questions, good evening (Gloria returned into the building and the secret service began pressing the media back to a much more respectful distance)

to be continued...

thoughts?

[mrmandias]

The idea isn't as crazy as you make it sound. I think it would help Clinton make up some lost ground among independents and help to change the conversation somewhat. Ultimately I don't think its enough, especially because lots of folks will dismiss it as a desperation move (and, at least temporarily, the Religious Right will be *invigorated* by it, smelling blood in the water), but I do think Clinton does better with this kind of move than if he lets the status quo go on.

I didn't suggest they would go to Gramm... but they could stay home if Clinton offers a more restrictive abortion program on top of the problems his affair will down stream through the party itself... I mean how much is Nancy Pelosi or Charlie Rangle going to like bringing that little bit of legislation home?

And I also think you are underestimating the timing factor here... the election is only 4 weeks away, plus the republicans control both houses of congress AND are away from Washington campaigning for the upcoming election... I don't see Newt or Bob Dole doing him any favors in this regard by taking up something he is campaigning for in that little window of time (especially when they have a shot of free reign to restrict abortion and pursue a hard core right wing agenda if Gramm wins)

Its an interesting suggestion, but throwing a core dem constituency to the wolves when you will be campaigning from a position of weakness seems like a bad idea to me...if anything he will desperately need to mobilize single women since he will incur losses in suburban married women due to his slip up

and the religious right turning less political is probably asb with a pod of 1996 :p... I mean they still have separation of church and state to tear down amongst there other priorities (spoiler: I'll be covering certain activities of the religious right leading up to the election in future updates)

[historybuff]

She handled that well, but this isn't over, not by a long shot.

[EWHM]

The idea isn't as crazy as you make it sound. I think it would help Clinton make up some lost ground among independents and help to change the conversation somewhat. Ultimately I don't think its enough, especially because lots of folks will dismiss it as a desperation move (and, at least temporarily, the Religious Right will be *invigorated* by it, smelling blood in the water), but I do think Clinton does better with this kind of move than if he lets the status quo go on.


Clinton would need something big, something coalition breaking to have a better than even chance of hanging on himself. Thing is, an awful lot of the members of the religious right know in their gut that they've got no chance of getting what they want unless a Democrat decides that the issue is too radioactive to fight on anymore---much like many of them have subsequently decided (in the 2000-2010 decade) on the gun issue. Clinton could and would give them their victory in this scenario (although it'd be really more of a reversion to Euro norms than the complete victory many of them pine for), Gramm could, but almost certainly wouldn't, even with control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency. You're correct that the move in this context would be a desperation move, but desperate times call for desperate measures, and Clinton is, above all, for Clinton (an appetite in a suit---who was that who called him that?). I'll be honest, I didn't like him one bit, but his lack of a real idealogy made him probably the least damaging of recent presidents, if only because he was reasonably predictable and didn't therefore inflict much 'regime uncertainty' on the economy after his health plan bombed.

[usertron2020]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Clinton is going to lose. Read the title of the TL. The fact that his opponent ITTL is obviously a hero for the author is not the final nail in Clinton's coffin (the scandal breaking pre-election is that), Gramm's nomination is rather cement poured over Clinton's political grave.

[NoOneFamous]

I will say this much, Gloria is a pitt bull who will make life a living hell for Tripp, et al

[Wildcard F. Kennedy]

I wonder if Gore will resign. It's the only way to save face and his political future. He has to denounce Clinton and resign in disgust. Otherwise, he goes down with the ship and his career is over.

[Evan]

I wonder if Gore will resign. It's the only way to save face and his political future. He has to denounce Clinton and resign in disgust. Otherwise, he goes down with the ship and his career is over.

No, don't resign - distance himself from Clinton; emphasize he knew nothing; make moves to maybe run against him; state that he's there in case Clinton resigns. It might not work, but there's a chance.

[lothaw]

No, don't resign - distance himself from Clinton; emphasize he knew nothing; make moves to maybe run against him; state that he's there in case Clinton resigns. It might not work, but there's a chance.

Gore publicly requesting that Clinton resign for the sake of the integrety of the country could win him a lot of political points.

[BlairWitch749]

Gore publicly requesting that Clinton resign for the sake of the integrety of the country could win him a lot of political points.

Gore doing that when he himself had some questionable activities outside his marriage (unknown to the public at this point) would be quite ironic

[BlairWitch749]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Clinton is going to lose. Read the title of the TL. The fact that his opponent ITTL is obviously a hero for the author is not the final nail in Clinton's coffin (the scandal breaking pre-election is that), Gramm's nomination is rather cement poured over Clinton's political grave.

The title is meant to be Clinton's image, reputation and marriage

I don't see how I have portrayed Gramm as a personal hero? I stated that he was a conservative Reaganite, and had more appeal/energy than Bob Dole

If I was old enough to vote in 1996 (born 83) in the republican primaries, my first choice would have been Pete Wilson (provided he wasn't sick)

Part of my choice in Gramm is that as a hardass Texas politician, he would not be afraid to get right into the mud and go after Clinton on this (which I think will make the story more compelling)... Bob Dole is more the statesman/kind old man type who would refuse to comment on this and try to ignore it which is not only boring but will make the time line less interesting

But you are correct in your analysis that the timing and Gramm are twin daggers pointed at Clinton

[mrmandias]

The real problem is that Clinton can't put through the abortion position we're talking about here, it would require Supreme Court action.

Clinton would need something big, something coalition breaking to have a better than even chance of hanging on himself. Thing is, an awful lot of the members of the religious right know in their gut that they've got no chance of getting what they want unless a Democrat decides that the issue is too radioactive to fight on anymore---much like many of them have subsequently decided (in the 2000-2010 decade) on the gun issue. Clinton could and would give them their victory in this scenario (although it'd be really more of a reversion to Euro norms than the complete victory many of them pine for), Gramm could, but almost certainly wouldn't, even with control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency. You're correct that the move in this context would be a desperation move, but desperate times call for desperate measures, and Clinton is, above all, for Clinton (an appetite in a suit---who was that who called him that?). I'll be honest, I didn't like him one bit, but his lack of a real idealogy made him probably the least damaging of recent presidents, if only because he was reasonably predictable and didn't therefore inflict much 'regime uncertainty' on the economy after his health plan bombed.

[EWHM]

The real problem is that Clinton can't put through the abortion position we're talking about here, it would require Supreme Court action.


Clinton could simply not include Planned Parenthood in his next budget. He could also play games with Executive Orders and attempt to present a finding of fact that unborn children have been successfully delivered with good results as early as 5 months----I believe that Roe v Wade had language strongly implying that as a way out. In addition, just saying he'll make it a litmus issue on his Supreme Court appointments would probably be signal enough. Lastly, Congress can strip jurisdiction from the Supremes on the abortion issue if it wants to---this is explicitly granted as a power to them in the Constitution. With Clinton providing cover, they'd just need to actually pass on of the various bills to that effect that Ron Paul has introduced so many times. The task really isn't that hard if President and Congress agree---even without pulling a Lincoln on the SC.

[BlairWitch749]

Impossible decisions (Chapter 19) - “We learned from that one, ... When something like this happens, you got to get out in front of it. When we had our first disaster, the floods in Iowa in 1993, Clinton was right there, [saying] 'I feel your pain.' ” - James Carville

President Clinton's hotel room, Hartford CT October 6th 1996 728 PM (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

President Clinton and his top political advisers and his white house counsel Jack Quinn had been disecting Gloria Allred's impromptu press conference for the last 10 minutes. They where operating absolutely under the gun as they would need to leave for the debate within 12 minutes in order to be there on time.

They where also dealing with the shock of Hillary leaving the hotel and refusing to return calls. Paul Begala was stunned at that piece of news, he stopped drafting ways for the President to explain the situation tonight at the debate and began to heavily pressure him to postpone the debate. Jack Quinn was of the same opinion, they had to be very careful in what they would say since it seemed possible Hillary might file for divorce, he too counciled the President to postpone the debate.

Also in the confernce, via speaker phone where James Carville (who was in Washington) and the recently displaced, but still willing to contribute advice for a buck Dick Morris. Morris and Carville argued passionately that Clinton had to appear at the debate, and that his request to postpone would let the media go full court press on him. Morris said it would be seen as a guilty act and that there would be no hope of recovery if the media was allowed to run unchecked until they could build up a speech for a press conference tomorrow. Carville was equally strong in his concern that the media would destroy the campaign within 24 hours and that they needed to get in front of the story, no matter how bad the consequences would be right away. "Rip it the hell off like a band aid, youll drop 30 points in 24 hours if we don't"

Clinton vacilitated back and forth. Hillary storming out really unnerved him, he felt confident that he could address the issue, and that if she was in the audience and would embrace him at the end of the debate that his campaign might still be salvageable. Her leaving though and not being in the crowd at the debate would just fuel even more media speculation (not that there wasn't an actual fire there to be put out either). Begala told him, Mr. President if we are going to postpone, we need to call down there and call Gramm now otherwise we better get moving...

Clinton ran his hands through his hair, sighed deeply... lets go, we will work on my remarks on the way there

to be continued...

thoughts

[historybuff]

I'm sure Gramm's gonna have a field day with this info.

[Tyg]

Going to the debate is what I'd have advised as well. Not doing so sends the signal that the Clinton is so beset by personal problems that he can't meet the expectations people have of the President. It'd have given Gramm an opening to attack, "The American people deserve a President who is kept from leadership by his personal problems." Though Gramm is likely to give that argument anyway, not attending the debate would help it stick.

To be fair though, attending the debate with Clinton in this state of stress raises the probability of a gaffe he can't afford right now, and it'd be tough to say that Clinton would be prepared to address policies and issues given that the White House has been in panic mode.

[mrmandias]

I'm sure Gramm's gonna have a field day with this info.

Probably, but it's going to be tricky. Clinton is self-destructing here, Gramm doesn't want to get in the way too much. That said Gramm probably can't screw this up even if he tries.

[RogueBeaver]

Probably, but it's going to be tricky. Clinton is self-destructing here, Gramm doesn't want to get in the way too much. That said Gramm probably can't screw this up even if he tries.

"Ma, where's my Pa?" "He'll be here in 3 months when strangers' rah makes him face the law." (paraphrasing the Cleveland joke)

[Chengar Qordath]

Going to the debate is what I'd have advised as well. Not doing so sends the signal that the Clinton is so beset by personal problems that he can't meet the expectations people have of the President. It'd have given Gramm an opening to attack, "The American people deserve a President who is kept from leadership by his personal problems." Though Gramm is likely to give that argument anyway, not attending the debate would help it stick.

I have to agree; in addition to the points you raised, canceling the debate would be the sort of blood in the water that intensifies the media feeding frenzy by drawing even more attention to the allegations. A weak, distracted Clinton during the debates wouldn't do as much damage as several hours of non-stop news coverage about the fact that Clinton canceled the debate at the last minute when the affair broke. If nothing else, the debates would give the media something else to talk about besides the affair, especially if Clinton can do a decent job of staying on-issue and presenting his case.

Going to the debate isn't a good option, but it is the best one he has; unless the debate ends in utter disaster, it won't do as much damage as canceling it would have.

[pnyckqx]

I'm sure Gramm's gonna have a field day with this info.Agreed, but not during this debate, and probably not in any subsequent debate.

Gramm has undoubtedly been preparing for this event for quite a while. The Lewinsky story was developing. He can't go 'off script' and expect a good result. Everybody remembers Dan Quayle's little trip off script in 1988, and how Lloyd Benston shoved it up his ass.

Both men are going to stay with their battle plan for this event.

What happens on the campaign trail is entirely another matter.

[BlairWitch749]

A case of the Willey(s) (Chapter 20) - “When I think of the person that I thought was Bill Clinton, I think he had genuine remorse. When I think of the person that I now see is 100 percent politician, I think he's sorry he got caught.” - Monica Lewinsky

The Bushnell Theater Hartford CT 755 PM October 6th 1996 (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

As president Clinton, and Senator Phil Gramm stood on opposite sides of the stage and Jim Lehrer sat at a desk in the middle preparing for the eagerly anticipated debate to begin, the rug swept out from the president again. All at once, aides to Gramm sprinted up to him and began whispering information into his ear, as did a production assistant with Jim Lehrer. Paul Begala gained the president's attention with a simple yet telling line; there is another one:

Thirty minutes prior to this, Linda Tripp had been contacted by someone she knew very well:

Kathleen Willey was a white house worker who claimed to have been sexually attacked by President Clinton to Linda Tripp... but at the same time remained infatuated with him asking Tripp to pull strings to get her into situations alone with the president. Tripp had planned to tell all about her in her book, and besides the Monica and the baby stuff was far more scandalous anyway; but Willey had heard Tripp on Sean Hannity's radio program and decided it was time to come out of the shadows. Willey asked that Tripp announce the sexual attack from 1993 and an illicit affair.

Tripp only hesitated slightly, Willey wasn't the most credible person AND she had nothing like the body of proof that comprehensively proved the relationship between Lewinsky and Clinton. But the president calling her a fuck played over and over again in her mind. She and Matt Drudge where at FOX's NY studio waiting and preparing to broadcast a live interview with Sean Hannity after the debate

Tripp went to Drudge, telling him that she wanted a sub headline put on to the Drudge Report stating that would announce a 2nd affair with another woman named Kathleen Willey, and that she wanted the headline put up right away before the debate. Drudge told her that they couldn't produce the article in the short time before the debate... but that if Linda was willing he would write the headline, not include a link and put the words "developing" behind it and that he could do so within 15 minutes

This is where Tripp and Drudge ended up crossing a line. The Monica stuff was timed as a payback and hit piece, but it was completely and utterly true, backed not only by her unauthorized audio recordings but by the words of Monica's lawyer AND any potential DNA paternity test done on her son. Kathleen Willey was at best he said/ she said and Tripp knew it, however being the "break" on the second woman would hold a benefit she thought, and dropping that bomb now would really screw up Clinton before the debate

The Drudge Report sub headline went live at 746PM "Whistle-blower Linda Tripp will announce President also had affair with staff member Kathleen Willey.......Developing"

The whole world was stalking the Drudge report at this point, hungry for updates on the scandal, and Drudge's new server farms where tested to their limit as his site broke all time internet records for traffic.

It took less than ten minutes for the story to filter down to Hartford CT, and in an amazing stroke, all the parties involved in the debate learned about it at the same time

Phil Gramm grinned, Slick Willey (he let the pun sit there for a moment) isn't going to be able to talk his way out of this, make sure the VCR is going on this boys its bound to be a classic


To be continued...

thoughts?

[RogueBeaver]

A case of the Willey(s) (Chapter 20) - “When I think of the person that I thought was Bill Clinton, I think he had genuine remorse. When I think of the person that I now see is 100 percent politician, I think he's sorry he got caught.” - Monica Lewinsky

The Bushnell Theater Hartford CT 755 PM October 6th 1996 (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

As president Clinton, and Senator Phil Gramm stood on opposite sides of the stage and Jim Lehrer sat at a desk in the middle preparing for the eagerly anticipated debate to begin, the rug swept out from the president again. All at once, aides to Gramm sprinted up to him and began whispering information into his ear, as did a production assistant with Jim Lehrer. Paul Begala gained the president's attention with a simple yet telling line; there is another one:

Thirty minutes prior to this, Linda Tripp had been contacted by someone she knew very well:

Kathleen Willey was a white house worker who claimed to have been sexually attacked by President Clinton to Linda Tripp... but at the same time remained infatuated with him asking Tripp to pull strings to get her into situations alone with the president. Tripp had planned to tell all about her in her book, and besides the Monica and the baby stuff was far more scandalous anyway; but Willey had heard Tripp on Sean Hannity's radio program and decided it was time to come out of the shadows. Willey asked that Tripp announce the sexual attack from 1993 and an illicit affair.

Tripp only hesitated slightly, Willey wasn't the most credible person AND she had nothing like the body of proof that comprehensively proved the relationship between Lewinsky and Clinton. But the president calling her a fuck played over and over again in her mind. She and Matt Drudge where at FOX's NY studio waiting and preparing to broadcast a live interview with Sean Hannity after the debate

Tripp went to Drudge, telling him that she wanted a sub headline put on to the Drudge Report stating that would announce a 2nd affair with another woman named Kathleen Willey, and that she wanted the headline put up right away before the debate. Drudge told her that they couldn't produce the article in the short time before the debate... but that if Linda was willing he would write the headline, not include a link and put the words "developing" behind it and that he could do so within 15 minutes

This is where Tripp and Drudge ended up crossing a line. The Monica stuff was timed as a payback and hit piece, but it was completely and utterly true, backed not only by her unauthorized audio recordings but by the words of Monica's lawyer AND any potential DNA paternity test done on her son. Kathleen Willey was at best he said/ she said and Tripp knew it, however being the "break" on the second woman would hold a benefit she thought, and dropping that bomb now would really screw up Clinton before the debate

The Drudge Report sub headline went live at 746PM "Whistle-blower Linda Tripp will announce President also had affair with staff member Kathleen Willey.......Developing"

The whole world was stalking the Drudge report at this point, hungry for updates on the scandal, and Drudge's new server farms where tested to their limit as his site broke all time internet records for traffic.

It took less than ten minutes for the story to filter down to Hartford CT, and in an amazing stroke, all the parties involved in the debate learned about it at the same time

Phil Gramm grinned, Slick Willey (he let the pun sit there for a moment) isn't going to be able to talk his way out of this, make sure the VCR is going on this boys its bound to be a classic


To be continued...

thoughts?

Clinton could swat back at Wiley (is this from OTL?) as unsubstantiated but Lewinsky is still a killer. Gramm can use W's OTL line of "restoring honor and dignity to the White House", or maybe "honor, dignity, family values to the WH" in the debate.

[BlairWitch749]

Clinton could swat back at Wiley (is this from OTL?) as unsubstantiated but Lewinsky is still a killer. Gramm can use W's OTL line of "restoring honor and dignity to the White House", or maybe "honor, dignity, family values to the WH" in the debate.

She came up in the Linda Tripp testimony as part of Kenn Starr's investigation and in the Paula Jones case. She wasn't credible at all, (although later in OTL she did pass a polygraph test asking if Clinton had assaulted her)

Having both incidents come up at once makes it much more difficult, because the Monica relationship is true beyond a shadow of a doubt; but how much will anyone be willing to believe bill if he says something like" well linda tripp was correct about me monica and the baby, but I did not have sexual relations with Kathleen Willey"... once there is one affair you lose all deniability if Tiger Woods is any example

[lloyd007]

I think Kathleen Willey could easily lead to Juanita Broaddrick coming forward with her own story. With Hillary deciding to cut her losses for Chelsea's sake TTL Clinton is going to collapse in the polls. There is no way he can fend off two allegations of sexual assault (unless they are patently false) with Victor Lewinsky napping in his crib.

Gramm doesn't even have to lift a finger or utter a word. He can 'be above' all the sordid personal conflict that Clinton is mired in.

[BlairWitch749]

I think Kathleen Willey could easily lead to Juanita Broaddrick coming forward with her own story. With Hillary deciding to cut her losses for Chelsea's sake TTL Clinton is going to collapse in the polls. There is no way he can fend off two allegations of sexual assault (unless they are patently false) with Victor Lewinsky napping in his crib.

Gramm doesn't even have to lift a finger or utter a word. He can 'be above' all the sordid personal conflict that Clinton is mired in.

Wow I didn't even think of having her come forward too (I chose Willey because she was part of the circle of ugly rumors and allegations around Tripp)

This would be a REALLY interesting time to have Broaddrick come forward

There was a rumor going around for years that Clinton had sexually assaulted her that she never commented on (it was speculated about when Clinton was running for governor of AR)... she told Paula Jones Lawyers in 1997 under oath that it wasn't true (thinking her reputation would just be tarnished like Gennifer Flowers) and then recanted in 1998 when the Lewinsky scandal broke and it became a "safer" (from a reputation perspective" environment to say you shared a bed with Bill... the "flip flop" destroyed her credibility (although TBH I think her story was more credible than Willey's)

Gramm might not have to get himself involved, but he is a hardass texas politician, I doubt he would be so generous as to not throw a few jabs on the issue

[pnyckqx]

...Phil Gramm grinned, Slick Willey (he let the pun sit there for a moment) isn't going to be able to talk his way out of this, make sure the VCR is going on this boys its bound to be a classic


To be continued...

thoughts?C'mon BW, nobody who has been in politics as long as Gramm is that stupid. No way is he going to try an exploit an unconfirmed blurb that has no specifics attached to it. Too easy to get bit on the ass.

At best, he'd say something like: "Well, in the country I was raised in, a man is innocent until proven guilty, and I'll give President Clinton the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are revealed."

[BlairWitch749]

C'mon BW, nobody who has been in politics as long as Gramm is that stupid. No way is he going to try an exploit an unconfirmed blurb that has no specifics attached to it. Too easy to get bit on the ass.

At best, he'd say something like: "Well, in the country I was raised in, a man is innocent until proven guilty, and I'll give President Clinton the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are revealed."


He doesn't have to be overly aggressive about it... subtle digs are fine... the man is from the texas school of hard knocks... would karl rove or LBJ let such a scandal go without taking advantage and point scoring?

[pnyckqx]

He doesn't have to be overly aggressive about it... subtle digs are fine... the man is from the texas school of hard knocks... would karl rove or LBJ let such a scandal go without taking advantage and point scoring?Oh i agree, he's going to go after it, just as soon as his inside sources can confirm what the hell is going on. He'll do it on the campaign trail at various appearances, and in manageable sound bites for the media.

He'd be crazy to try it during the debate though. It's just a matter of timing. Nothing is confirmed. Drudge just put out a blurb with no specifics. Gramm and Clinton have both prepared for the debate.

From Gramm's perspective, or more properly, the perspective of his handlers, if this matter is TRUE, then Clinton already has the response in his sleeve. If not true, then he's going to call Gramm a "goddamned liar and rumor monger".

Pretty hard to win either way. The Dan Quayle debate lesson of 1988 was learned by everybody including Quayle. Don't lead with your chin.

Gramm simply has to make a statement similar to what i posted earlier, and he's perceived as 'Presidential' and a responsible policy maker.

He can get into the mud later.

The closest thing to a knockout since then was Dick Cheney vs. Joe Lieberman in 2000, and that was more humor than malicious.

[BlairWitch749]

Betrayal (Chapter 21)- President Whitmore's daughter: Daddy let me watch Letterman; President Whitmore: Traitor!.... - Independence Day (number 1 movie of 1996)

The Bushnell Theater Hartford CT October 6th 1996 802 pm (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

Jim Lehrer: Good evening from the Bushnell Theater in Hartford, Connecticut. I'm Jim Lehrer with the NEWS HOUR on PBS. Welcome to the first of the 1996 presidential debates between President Bill Clinton, the Democratic nominee, and Senator Phil Gramm, the Republican nominee.
This event is sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. It will last 90 minutes, following a format and rules worked out by the two campaigns. There will be two-minute opening and closing statements.
In between, a series of questions each having three parts -- a 90-second answer, a 60-second rebuttal, and a 30-second response. I will assist the candidates in adhering to those time limits with the help of a series of lights visible to both.
Under their rules, the candidates are not allowed to question each other directly. I will ask the questions. There are no limitations on the subjects.
The order for everything tonight was determined by coin toss. Now, to the opening statements and to President Clinton. Mr. President.



Clinton: Thank you, Jim. And thank you to the people of Hartford, our hosts. I want to begin by saying again how much I respect Senator Gramm and his record of public service, and how hard I will try to make this campaign and this debate one of ideas.


I wish now, in my opening public statement in what has been one of the most difficult days of my life to admit to a betrayal. I betrayed my marriage, and the trust of a lot of people. As many of you have read or heard, I was involved in an inappropriate relationship with a White House employee named Monica Lewinsky. This relationship did in fact result in her giving birth to a son some weeks ago. I wish at this time to take full responsibility for my actions. I was wrong, and I hope that the voters and the american people as a whole will find it in their hearts to forgive my betrayal. I want to say first and foremost I am sorry to my wife and daughter, they did nothing to deserve the pain I have brought them. I realize additional allegations will and are coming out now, and more may follow in the coming days, and I promise to address each and every single one as quickly as possible. Thank you


(some clapping, some boos, but silence holds the room)


Lehrer: Senator Gramm two minutes


Thank you. Thank you, thanks to the people of Hartford, the commission and all those out there who may be listening or watching. It's a great honor for me to be here, standing here as the Republican nominee. I'm very proud to be the Republican nominee reaching out to Democrats and independents.



I only want to say one thing regarding the issue the President just spoke about. I genuinely feel sorry for the children involved being dragged through the mud. Otherwise the President's words are all you need to hear in this room tonight on the subject
America's the greatest place on the face of the earth. Now I know millions of you still have anxieties. You work harder and harder to make ends meet and put food on the table. You worry about the quality and the safety of your children and the quality of education.
But even more importantly, you worry about the future, and will they have the same opportunities that you and I have had. And Spencer Abraham and I want to share with you some ideas tonight. Spencer Abraham is my running mate, doing an outstanding job.
Now I'm a plain-speaking man, and I learned long ago that your word was your bond. And I promise you tonight that I'll try to address your concerns and not try to exploit them. It's a tall order, but I've been running against the odds for a long time. And again, I'm honored to be here this evening.




They then proceeded to discuss the role of the federal government in people's lives; where Gramm strongly attacked Clinton's tax increases in 1993 which particularly effected social security and fuel.


Lehrer then asked if the men thought the country was better than it was four years ago. Gramm stated that Clinton inherited a growth rate of 4.7 percent and that it was now 2.5 percent. Gramm spoke about family income not increasing, but that tax rates and fuel prices had increased anyway leaving working families in stagnation or declining power.


Clinton spoke about the number of jobs created in the previous 4 years and the need to reform health care to save the country money


The next question was on medicare reform, where both candidates touted their party platform plan


Lehrer then asked Gramm about wanting to lower tax rates to stimulate growth which produced some light hearted joking with the host and president Clinton. Gramm went over the details of how much more money families would have in their pockets.... President Clinton responded that his plan would make it take much longer to balance the budget and that it would unfairly favor the rich and wall street


There was then a small back and forth about campaign finance reform


They then discussed drug use in the country and crime trends, with Gramm praising the efforts of Rudi Guilianni and other upstart local level politicians.




They then spoke about gun control... and when Lehrer asked if Gramm had an alternative to the Brady Bill he took a jab at the president. I want instant check, there is no reason it can't be done over the internet... Dell Computers is based in Texas, they can do it, they have the ability to create a database so we can keep deadly weapons out of the hands of deadly people. The internet is a great tool Jim, its availability needs to spread throughout the country as much as possible, why think of today's news cycle without the internet as a communication tool


(the jab hung in the air, hitting Clinton rhetorically in the solar plexus)


They then discussed foreign policy and trade relations with Gramm being on the offensive about mismanagement and lack of resolve in Somalia



They then discussed the rolling mess (Gramm's words) that was Hillary care


The candidates where asked about race... Gramm spoke deeply about the difficult past and transition Texas went through but that he was proud to say that he felt America had started to transition to a post racial society.


Clinton and Gramm went back and forth over education reform with Gramm calling for the department to be eliminated and making a joke saying to worry that all their union dues would still be sent to the DNC. Clinton denounced Gramm's desire for vouchers. Gramm then attacked saying Clinton had 10 millionaires in his cabinet and that his administration was out of touch with the American people


They then retraced ground on taxes, education and health reform


The closing statements offered nothing particularly special... and then it was over... the media digestion and scramble where now off the leash


to be continued


thoughts?

[NoOneFamous]

I liked Bill tackling the issue head on and I like Gramm's response

[segerge]

I realize additional allegations will and are coming out now, and more may follow in the coming daysItalics are mine, because these are the words from Clinton's opening statement which will probably be pounced upon.

[thekingsguard]

President Gramm is starting to sound nice

[BlairWitch749]

Italics are mine, because these are the words from Clinton's opening statement which will probably be pounced upon.

I figured it lets him address that the Willey stuff is out there, but without saying it.

Clinton would be right to not speak about that, since he doesn't know exactly what Tripp or Willey will say or what level of proof they have

NOTE: For the purposes of this TL we are assuming the 1993 encounter between Willey and Clinton did happen... this was not proven beyond all shadow of a doubt and Willey is not a very believable person; however, she (not a trained spy but a low level paper pusher) did pass a polygraph test asserting that the encounter did happen; so we will treat that as being proof enough for our purposes

[Wendell]

The race question should be interesting for Graham to have addressed given that his wife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Lee_Gramm) is of Asian ancestry.

[pnyckqx]

I only want to say one thing regarding the issue the President just spoke about. I genuinely feel sorry for the children involved being dragged through the mud. Otherwise the President's words are all you need to hear in this room tonight on the subject...[redacted by pnyckqx]

...thoughts?Just about right. Gramm knows what he doesn't know, and so does Clinton. Good way for both men to avoid the mine field.

Gramm is far more interesting an opponent for Clinton than was Bob Dole in 96 OTL.

Looking forward to where this all leads.

[Gridley]

When does Slick Willy start randomly lobbing missiles at other countries in an effort to distract the MSM and the public?

[BlairWitch749]

When does Slick Willy start randomly lobbing missiles at other countries in an effort to distract the MSM and the public?

How dare you suggest President Clinton start bombing Iraq to distract the public from his dirty laundry; why such a thing would be asb:cool:

[lord caedus]

NOTE: For the purposes of this TL we are assuming the 1993 encounter between Willey and Clinton did happen... this was not proven beyond all shadow of a doubt and Willey is not a very believable person; however, she (not a trained spy but a low level paper pusher) did pass a polygraph test asserting that the encounter did happen; so we will treat that as being proof enough for our purposes

Polygraph tests are unreliable as indicators of guilt or veracity and can easily be fooled, so that doesn't say much.

[Gridley]

How dare you suggest President Clinton start bombing Iraq to distract the public from his dirty laundry; why such a thing would be asb:cool:

Yes, I forgot what a paragon of virtue and ethical behavior he was. ;-)

The fact that his scandal-ridden administration actually ordered more overseas operations than any since WWII must have been due to improved threat assessment... from the intelligence agencies that Gore gutted... wait...

[Chengar Qordath]

Polygraph tests are unreliable as indicators of guilt or veracity and can easily be fooled, so that doesn't say much.

Quite so; nobody's claimed that it's anything more than a minor boost to the credibility of Willey's allegations.

[Wendell]

Yes, I forgot what a paragon of virtue and ethical behavior he was. ;-)

The fact that his scandal-ridden administration actually ordered more overseas operations than any since WWII must have been due to improved threat assessment... from the intelligence agencies that Gore gutted... wait...

Yet, Bush was the warmonger. History's grand, isn't it? ;)

[lloyd007]

NOTE: For the purposes of this TL we are assuming the 1993 encounter between Willey and Clinton did happen... this was not proven beyond all shadow of a doubt and Willey is not a very believable person; however, she (not a trained spy but a low level paper pusher) did pass a polygraph test asserting that the encounter did happen; so we will treat that as being proof enough for our purposes

I actually don't think you need to go that far. Willey (and Broaddrick if you use her story as well) might be true and might be false, but neither is obviously true or obviously false. Clinton's womanizing has gotten him into obvious trouble TTL but forcing the reader into believing he's a total scumbag hurts the story imo.

[usertron2020]

Polygraph tests are unreliable as indicators of guilt or veracity and can easily be fooled, so that doesn't say much.

1) Pathological Liar (Sociopath)
2) Incompetent technician (failure to properly calibrate and QC instrument)
3) Poorly trained technician (doesn't know what he's doing)
4) Pre-disposed technician (prejudicial)
5) Delusional subject (they really believe the truth in their fantasies)
6) An honest innocent is having a bad day (nervous), resulting in false positives

These are just SIX causes for failure I can come up with on the spur of the moment. No wonder judges don't want to have anything to do with them.:mad:

Acceptance or rejection of individual polygraph results tends to run side-by-side with one's own desires for the outcome.

[usertron2020]

Yet, Bush was the warmonger. History's grand, isn't it? ;)

If you count every missile launched into Afghanistan by Clinton as a "1", and the whole Iraq War as a "1", I could see how you would feel that way.:rolleyes:

[usertron2020]

I actually don't think you need to go that far. Willey (and Broaddrick if you use her story as well) might be true and might be false, but neither is obviously true or obviously false. Clinton's womanizing has gotten him into obvious trouble TTL but forcing the reader into believing he's a total scumbag hurts the story imo.

I'm afraid the ship has already sailed on that point.:) I'm waiting for the revelations of Jane Doe's 1-5, and the Return of Genifer Flowers. ALSO we can soon expect to see Susan McDougal changing her mind and deciding to testify against the Clintons. Telling all about Whitewater and the Clinton's involvement in that scandal, using the funds to support their drug empire*. The capstone being the revelation of Susan's eighteen year old son by Bill.:D
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-My source about the Clinton's "Little Rock" connection was Jerry Falwell. Really. He made a documentary about it. Really.

[OneUp]

So...I hate to be the person who does this...but...when are we gonna see a Manstein in Africa Update?

[BlairWitch749]

1) Pathological Liar (Sociopath)
2) Incompetent technician (failure to properly calibrate and QC instrument)
3) Poorly trained technician (doesn't know what he's doing)
4) Pre-disposed technician (prejudicial)
5) Delusional subject (they really believe the truth in their fantasies)
6) An honest innocent is having a bad day (nervous), resulting in false positives

These are just SIX causes for failure I can come up with on the spur of the moment. No wonder judges don't want to have anything to do with them.:mad:

Acceptance or rejection of individual polygraph results tends to run side-by-side with one's own desires for the outcome.


The limitations of the device don't stop it from being employed by the CIA and a number of businesses of a sensitive nature.

Also the polygraph is ONE element of why for the purposes of the TL I will treat the kathleen willey incident as having happened

3 reasons


1. The polygraph (again she was a low level paper pusher not a trained spy)
2. She (willey) said it happened
3. (most important) Linda Tripp said it happened, Tripp may have been a giant scumbag who was perfectly willing to betray people for money or her own ass, but she did not lie in her testimony about Monica Lewinsky whereas Bill Clinton absolutely did. Not only did Linda Tripp say it happened, she claims to have witnessed the aftermath ie seeing Kathleen Willey come out of the oval office completely discheveled with all of her lipstick shmeared/removed

[BlairWitch749]

So...I hate to be the person who does this...but...when are we gonna see a Manstein in Africa Update?
:o

Manstein in Africa is at an inflection point (i'm nearly done with the findland stuff which was agonizing to put together) the finland stuff will mark the end of book 4 and i have almost 0 outline at all done for book 5 whereas this story is now complete in its outlines and was ready to be published

I would say to expect the finland updates within a week and MAYBE for book 5 to show up near the end of the summer

don't fret, this TL is nearly complete then my various WW2 stories will enjoy a series of updates starting with the desert god

[Wendell]

If you count every missile launched into Afghanistan by Clinton as a "1", and the whole Iraq War as a "1", I could see how you would feel that way.:rolleyes:

You forgot about the Balkan adventure(s) under Clinton, including the accidental bombing of a Chinese embassy and Clinton's man on the ground (whom Clinton later promoted) who nearly started a shooting war with the Russians.

[mrmandias]

Getting a little political again.

Political chat is a good place to debate whether Clinton or Bush II was an eviller evilmonger.

[marcus_aurelius]

:o

Manstein in Africa is at an inflection point (i'm nearly done with the findland stuff which was agonizing to put together) the finland stuff will mark the end of book 4 and i have almost 0 outline at all done for book 5 whereas this story is now complete in its outlines and was ready to be published

I would say to expect the finland updates within a week and MAYBE for book 5 to show up near the end of the summer

don't fret, this TL is nearly complete then my various WW2 stories will enjoy a series of updates starting with the desert god

Oh I've been waiting on your WWII stories since forever... although this one's a good read, too. Makes you wonder how fucking someone you shouldn't be fucking eventually fucks you over. :D

Marc A

[RPW@Cy]

You forgot about the Balkan adventure(s) under Clinton, including the accidental bombing of a Chinese embassy and Clinton's man on the ground (whom Clinton later promoted) who nearly started a shooting war with the Russians.

Wesley Clark (who later ran for president as a Democrat on his own account). Allegedly war was only averted because Clark's relevant subordinate was British (General Mike Jackson) and he refused to obey Clark's order without getting it confirmed by his own government.

[mrmandias]

Wesley Clark (who later ran for president as a Democrat on his own account). Allegedly war was only averted because Clark's relevant subordinate was British (General Mike Jackson) and he refused to obey Clark's order without getting it confirmed by his own government.

Political chat is a good place to debate whether Pres. Clinton thirsted for the blood of the Serb.

[BlairWitch749]

Political chat is a good place to debate whether Pres. Clinton thirsted for the blood of the Serb.

Indeed, Kathleen Willey credibility; on topic due to its relavence in the story

Clinton creating a wag the dog situation (which some argue he did in otl) speculation that kisses the edge of off topic

Argument about Clinton's foreign policy vis a vis W totally off topic

[BlairWitch749]

Oh I've been waiting on your WWII stories since forever... although this one's a good read, too. Makes you wonder how fucking someone you shouldn't be fucking eventually fucks you over. :D

Marc A

A very apt way to describe what a mistake the affair was:p

Its been a good diversion for me... focusing on this for a little bit has let me clear my head on the ww2 tl's and my outlines are actually making progress instead of being in endless writer's block hell

[pnyckqx]

Political chat is a good place to debate whether Pres. Clinton thirsted for the blood of the Serb.Nothing political about it. Clark was a loose cannon and a problem for the Clinton administration. Recall that he was relieved early from his SACEUR position. General Henry "Hugh" Shelton, Clinton's Chairman of the Joint Chiefs cryptically alluded to some moral failings on Clark's part. He never did specify.

With the possible exception of Admiral Boorda --and even he looked good on paper-- One of the strongpoints of the Clinton Administration is that he did pick good service chiefs.

While i disagree that Clark and Serbia was a matter of partisan politics between the left and the right wing --both wings pretty much equally divided over the action-- i do agree that it is not yet fodder for TTL.

What BlairWitch wishes to do with it is his choice.

[historybuff]

He admitted to it. Gramm's got a lot of ammunition to use against him now.

[mrmandias]

He admitted to it. Gramm's got a lot of ammunition to use against him now.

Gramm is smart. He'll let the media and his supporters tear Clinton apart while himself being pretty restrained and sober about it. He might make little digs from time to time but he'll usually only refer to the affair obliquely in a 30000 foot kind of way: "The White House is a sobering responsibility. When Americans put a man in the Oval Office, he must never, never let his personal passions get in the way of that sacred trust. We talk about politics and issues in this campaign, as we should, but above all that is personality and character. Character is what matters most."

[Lemon flavoured]

Wesley Clark (who later ran for president as a Democrat on his own account). Allegedly war was only averted because Clark's relevant subordinate was British (General Mike Jackson) and he refused to obey Clark's order without getting it confirmed by his own government.

And the Captain in charge of British troops on the ground?

James Blunt.

[Evan]

He admitted to it. Gramm's got a lot of ammunition to use against him now.
He'd have even more ammo if Clinton refused to admit to it. There are such things as paternity tests, and with enough prodding, I'm sure Miss Lewinski would agree to have one done.

[usertron2020]

Gramm is smart. He'll let the media and his supporters tear Clinton apart while himself being pretty restrained and sober about it. He might make little digs from time to time but he'll usually only refer to the affair obliquely in a 30000 foot kind of way: "The White House is a sobering responsibility. When Americans put a man in the Oval Office, he must never, never let his personal passions get in the way of that sacred trust. We talk about politics and issues in this campaign, as we should, but above all that is personality and character. Character is what matters most."

Agreed. Being truly Presidential is the best way for him to go. Gramm may be a two-fisted bare-knuckle boxer in Texas politics, but when it comes to the White House, I just can't see him getting down in the mud like a cheap political hack. He is still too much the statesman.

Are you listening, Newt?:confused:

[jmill]

bump...........

[NoOneFamous]

bump.........................:D

[BlairWitch749]

The snapshot (Chapter 22) - When your mission is to "restore honor and integrity to the White House, you've got to be willing to use any means necessary - Paul Begala

FOX's New York Television studios October 6th 1996 1007 PM (Victor Lewinsky is three weeks old)

Sean Hannity reveled in the moment, the networks where all finishing their quick round tables/commentaries on the debate, but it was nearly all focused on Monica Lewinsky and his upcoming television special with Matt Drudge and Linda Tripp. Also, doing this special on his own (without his FOX NEWS cohost Alan Combs would allow him to pile on to Clinton and let the cycle run a full 24 hours at least before Tripp was asked any hard questions about her conduct.

Matt Drudge had sources inside Gallup and had already received leaks of their snap shot poll which would make the papers in the morning. The results where devastating, but as Drudge had assumed before hand, not unexpected. His headline would show Gramm 47, Clinton 36 and Perot 6 with 11 percent undecided and a 3.1 percent margin of error. The Lewinsky scandal had swung the pendulum 13 points in 7 hours, and Drudge thought to himself, it would stick.

Linda Tripp was amazed when Drudge told her what their story had done to the president. She also drew joy on the arrogant bastard having to admit it to his wife and the world. She was even more excited that Kathleen Willey had caught the Amtrak up to New York and would join in the last 15 minutes of the interview to tell of her 1993 assault by Bill Clinton, which Tripp would corroberate by saying she had seen Willey come out of the oval office discheveled with her lipstick off

That Hillary Clinton was not anywhere to be seen in the audience was picked up on immediately by the media and was being used to compound the already flaming scandal. David Gergen, Chris Matthews and other panelists on various networks hit hard, but Pat Buchannan and others where mericless in their name calling... disgrace to the office was said more than once. Joe Scarborough pointed to the transfer of Monica Lewinsky to the pentagon and the increase in pay and benefits derived from, plus the hostile transfer of Linda Tripp to the pentagon as impeachable abuses of power

Paula Jones lawyers had already reached out to Linda Tripp, asking her for a deposition and copies of her documents which would be used to show a pattern of Bill's behavior for their sexual harassment lawsuit. They could have subpeoned her, but Linda didn't need a legal order, she decided, the more she could ruin Bill Clinton's life, the happier she would be AND the more books she would sell later; her publishing agent was flying to Washington on Monday, it was all coming together when the timer struck 1030pm and dramatic music stared playing as the introduction to the FOX NEWS SPECIAL

Good evening and welcome to the special debut of the FOX NEWS NETWORK, airing tonight on our regular FOX stations and affiliates, be sure to check with your local cable provider about getting the FOX NEWS CHANNEL when it formally goes live tomorrow. I'm Sean Hannity, conservative radio talk show host and commentator, and tonight it is my pleasure to interview Linda Tripp a Pentagon administrator who broke the news today that President Clinton fathered an out of wedlock child with a white house employee IN the oval office. I'll also be talking with Matt Drudge of the Drudge Report who broke this story and has up to the minute information on the scandal and the backlash. Kathleen Willey who just hours ago announced via Linda Tripp that she was sexually assaulted by President Clinton will be our special guest later in the program

Tripp and Drudge repeated most of their interview from earlier in the day on Hannity's radio show. The only major addition was Tripp telling her account of Kathleen Willey's interaction with the President. Willey herself retold it calmly and came off as sincere and believable (this predates some of the back and forth of her story telling, which would make her more trust worthy and appear less like a flip flopper)

At 11pm it was all over, they had conducted a 30 minute absolute character assassination. Hannity was stunned when the numbers came in and they would be a sub headline on the drudge report in the morning, the debate garnered 39 million viewers which was unusually high for a presidential debate, and Hannity's special had pulled in 51 million; near super bowl numbers... the second round of snap shots that would take place in the morning would be even more telling...

to be continued...

thoughts?

[historybuff]

Gramm's already wiping the floor with him.

[NoOneFamous]

It's going to be a bloody mess

[Caesar Australis]

This is a really good timeline, and I say that as a leftwing hack:). I'm surprised Perot's not doing better then 6% though, I'd think a substantial number of Perot's 1992 voters who switched to Clinton would defect back to Perot. He couldn't possibly do as well as his 1992 performance but 6% is less then he got OTL in 1996.

[BlairWitch749]

This is a really good timeline, and I say that as a leftwing hack:). I'm surprised Perot's not doing better then 6% though, I'd think a substantial number of Perot's 1992 voters who switched to Clinton would defect back to Perot.

Perot wasn't on TV that night (in 1996 they where able to shut him out of the debates)

[NoOneFamous]

update?????:D

[Wendell]

Perot wasn't on TV that night (in 1996 they where able to shut him out of the debates)

The debates aren't the issue. He could have bought airtime to deliver a message.

[BlairWitch749]

The debates aren't the issue. He could have bought airtime to deliver a message.

And he can later... remember the last 5 or 6 updates where confined to the events of one day, the whole blowing the lid off the story was a surprise

[Fish]

Can we expect an update anytime soon BlairWitch?

[thekingsguard]

And the bloodshed goes on!

[BlairWitch749]

The second snapshot (Chapter 23) -Public misbehavior by the famous is a powerful teaching tool - Bill O Reilly

October 7th 1996 903am FOX NEWS NY STUDIO (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

The morning debut of the FOX NEWS channel was certainly more sensational than expected just a week before. When Sean Hannity had asked his audience to request the FOX NEWS channel of their local cable outlets he had moved mountains. Regional networks like Time Warner and Cablevision where pounded with demands for the channel and questions about what channel they could find the programming on until their wait time for customer service and sales representatives reached more than a 10 hour holding time.

Matt Drudge's website had gone nuclear. In the 17 hours since his story went live the Drudge Report had recorded 7.8 million hits and he was being flooded with advertising requests. His servers where so overworked that he was compelled to request emergency installation and service from CISCO who brought in another 30 Pentium Pro-D equipped machines

Linda Tripp was on the phone with her publisher and Matt Drudge almost hourly. They had poured over the morning papers and news broadcasts. Conservative friendly papers like the wall street journal where vicious on their editorial pages about Clinton's conduct. But more to Tripp's delight, even the liberal papers like the New York times had devote their front pages and massive amount of print to the outing of Clinton's relationship with Lewinsky, the child and Kathleen Willey. They where not without barbs though, the editorial pages questioned Tripp's timing of the release of the information just before the debate which smelled of political gamesmenship, and they where vocal about not approving of her using the hyper partisan Hannity and Drudge to release her information without being asked any tough questions (partly out of their own partisanship as liberal editorial boards, but also out of jelousy in not getting the story for themselves) They called for Tripp to be scrutinized by a more objective form of media as soon as possible

Tripp was sensitive to this, she had expected it all along, the reason she had chosen Hannity and Drudge was so she could have 24 hours to destroy Bill Clinton unchecked, before questions of her own conduct and its legality where brought into play, and so far she had been extremely successful.

A second snapshot poll done by Quinnipiac University (taken after the Hannity special, whereas the Gallup poll was done after the debate) showed even worse news for President Clinton, as Sean Hannity's special had beamed into millions of voter homes:

Gramm 51
Clinton 31
Perot 8

With 10 percent undecided and a 3.3 percent margin of error

Linda Tripp and Sean Hannity had swung the election 20 points via ruthless character assassination.

The broadcast morning shows had reached out to members of the Clinton administration, demanding they come on and address the Hannity program from the previous night and give the white house's position and commentary on the snap shot polls. They had 100's of questions that their viewers needed to have answered before they left for work.

What they got was blanket refusal... Carville and Morris had convinced Clinton that his words on the situation during the debate where enough to keep the public from imploding on him for 24 hours, and that it was important that the papers and the broadcast networks start questioning Tripp's motivation and tactics for a bit of time before white house staff was made available to comment on the situation. So they put the media off by saying that President Clinton was preparing a formal address on the matter and that nobody in the administration would comment until then

This action, for that day seemed to be a mistake, because whilst Democratic congresspeople and administration officials ducked the media to await Clinton's speech, the Republicans came out in full force. Phil Gramm made 5 television appearances, restating that he only felt bad for the children and that until all the facts where known it was inappropriate for him to comment.

Spencer Abraham however was not so kind, he ruthlessly attacked Clinton's actions and behavior, stating the office of the presidency involved being the moral leader of the nation and that he had betrayed that duty. Pat Buchanan and congressman Joe Scarborough continued their bashing from the previous evening. Joe Scarborough stated that he was going to submit paperwork to the house judiciary committee to look into the transfers of Tripp and Lewinsky to the pentagon as an abuse of power and they would consider censure or articles of impeachment as appropriate

Linda Tripp as she was so far in this growing circus, played the media like a fiddle. Her appearance with Matt Drudge on the Fox News morning show drew huge ratings, and her publisher reached out to ABC stating that Tripp was willing to go on 20/20 with Barbara Walters in 2 days (which would continue to let Tripp's story go unchecked AND give ABC tremendously valuable time to hype up the appearance)

Gloria Allred underestimated the sheer scale of how insane the story would get so quickly. In spite of her demanding that the journalists cease camping out around the water gate, the hunger for additional information made the editors order the reporters and camera people not to leave. The secret service and the capital police where finding it increasingly difficult to manage the crowd of media people across the street which continued to swell desperate to photograph Monica Lewinsky and her child and to perhaps catch the first words out of her mouth since the scandal broke

When Monica emerged with Victor in her arms cameramen with telescopic lenses captured several images of her (although she was able to shield the baby from photograph). The secret service refused to let her go to the doctor's appointment with her mother in her own car, and instead shuffled her into a black Chevy Suburban (Monica and Gloria turned down repeated requests from the secret service to have the pediatrician come to watergate where they already had tight security set up) The secret service had to block off traffic for 6 blocks and arrested a national enquirer photographer both for not respecting their stop line and to show the rest of the media throng that they meant business

Gloria's cellphone was ringing off the hook as her office struggled to filter the calls from everyone to Paula's Jones Lawyers to television reporters to print desperately seeking access to Monica Lewinsky. She was stunned when she took a call from no other than Oprah Winfrey herself who wanted to interview Monica and photograph the baby in conjunction with people magazine... $750,000 plus $250,000 put into a college trust in Victor Lewinsky's name was the offer just for the photographs... Gloria, realizing that stonewalling the media with Monica Lewinsky was simply impossible tentitively agreed pending her getting Monica to approve the interview and photography session...

to be continued

thoughts?

[historybuff]

Nice one Abe.

[thekingsguard]

President Gramm, and blogger-wank, and a likely Clinton divorce... this TL gets better and better!

[Cuāuhtemōc]

This gets better and better, doesn't it?

[Gridley]

The secret service had to block off traffic for 6 blocks and brandish weapons more than once to keep the paparazzi back



Have to raise my eyebrows at this: I can't think of a single case where the USSS have even drawn weapons without a clear threat present (shots fired, etc.).

[BlairWitch749]

Have to raise my eyebrows at this: I can't think of a single case where the USSS have even drawn weapons without a clear threat present (shots fired, etc.).

They also are not deployed in situations quite like this...paprazzi do not have a reputation for respecting boundries; youll notice celebrity bodyguards (a situation more applicable to Monica Lewinsky's case here) often have to use force to protect their clients

Don't take my use of the word "brandish" to mean drawing and pointing it at the camera man from Vouge... but at least consider it making it known they are armed to the crowds and that their stop line means business

[Gridley]

They also are not deployed in situations quite like this...paprazzi do not have a reputation for respecting boundries; youll notice celebrity bodyguards (a situation more applicable to Monica Lewinsky's case here) often have to use force to protect their clients

Don't take my use of the word "brandish" to mean drawing and pointing it at the camera man from Vouge... but at least consider it making it known they are armed to the crowds and that their stop line means business

I have no specific knowledge of USSS training, but based on results it seems to be part of it that they don't draw until there's a clear threat. Given some of the situations in which they haven't drawn weapons (even when local cops, etc., DID), I'm having a hard time seeing them draw faced only with paparazzi. (I almost wrote 'aggressive paparazzi' but realized that was redundant).

Capitol police? Sure. For that matter, I could see the USSS Agents using physical force (grab and slam against a wall, that sort of thing) very easily.

This is, of course, a minor quibble, but your TL is of sufficiently high quality that such things stand out.

[BlairWitch749]

I have no specific knowledge of USSS training, but based on results it seems to be part of it that they don't draw until there's a clear threat. Given some of the situations in which they haven't drawn weapons (even when local cops, etc., DID), I'm having a hard time seeing them draw faced only with paparazzi. (I almost wrote 'aggressive paparazzi' but realized that was redundant).

Capitol police? Sure. For that matter, I could see the USSS Agents using physical force (grab and slam against a wall, that sort of thing) very easily.

This is, of course, a minor quibble, but your TL is of sufficiently high quality that such things stand out.

edited in retcon

[NoOneFamous]

the blood is in the water

[BlairWitch749]

Gossip rings (Chapter 24) “Show me someone who never gossips, and I will show you someone who is not interested in people.” - Barbara Walters

October 9th 1996 901PM ABC NY television studios (Victor Lewinsky is 3 weeks old)

Good evening and welcome to 20/20 I'm Barbara Walters, and with me tonight is the woman who has thrown the country upside down the last several days, pentagon administrator Linda Tripp, who two days ago released audio recordings from wire taps, confirming that President Clinton fathered an out of wedlock child with a white house employee.

BW: Linda how has the response been to your release of the information
LT: It's been tough on me, tough on my husband. We have gotten hundreds of letters, a lot of them unfriendly, and even a couple of threatening ones I had to turn over to the capitol police. The media has been aggressively following me and my husband as well
BW: I'm sure you anticipated that you couldn't release something like that and not be drawn into the public spotlight
LT: No of course not, trust me, it was hard to do... I've served my country for more than a decade, providing help to our armed forces and executive branch... my husband and I have always been regular people, and keeping my life normal was an attractive option versus what things are today, but the truth had to come out, the public deserved the truth
BW: I want to delve into the Monica Lewinsky story in great detail, but first I have to ask how did you feel when you heard President Clinton call you those names and say he got rid of you to keep you quiet on those tapes?
LT: It felt terrible, I served my country's defense department a long time in very sensitive positions including the NSA, Delta Force, the Pentagon and the White House itself. My superiors had always found me reliable and trust worthy It was like huge slap in the face
BW: Did you leak the relationship between George Bush and Jennifer Fitzgerald to the Washington Post?
LT: No, that is a complete fabrication, there was a large gossip ring about that, but I didn't go to the papers
BW: Did you know that the President thought you where the one who did
LT: Not when he became President. Look, I can understand HOW someone could think it was me... the White House in all honesty isn't much different than any other office, there is gossip, particularly about those sorts of things. I was a senior staffer, I saw the president and Ms Fitzgerald together frequently, but never inappropriately; but the story made its way to the media so I guess I seemed like someone who might have been aware of it.
BW: So you didn't think your transfer to the Pentagon was some kind of revenge act
LT: At the time no, nobody told me that the Clinton trusted circle thought I leaked the Fitzgerald thing... I got a substantial raise and better benefits, my husband and I where happy and none the wiser at the time. Of course once I heard that tape my mind changed, I was indeed thrown out of my job for that reason with no proof at all
BW: Tell me about how you befriended Monica Lewinsky
LT: (Tripp proceeded to tell Barbara Walters about how she became Monica's confident)
BW: When did you make the decision to start recording the conversations about the affair
LT: As soon as she told me about it
BW: You where willing to do that to a woman you considered a friend so quickly...tapping a Pentagon phone no less, which must be a violation of multiple levels in your profession
LT: I was so overwhelmed... I really and truly disapproved of the relationship, I felt in my heart he was taking advantage of her, he is an older married man and she was a 22 year old girl, it was wrong; I felt compelled to gather evidence... when she got transferred to the Pentagon I became even more convinced that he was abusing her and the relationship so I kept all the recordings
BW: You always intended to release them?
LT: I'd be lying if I said I made those recordings over those many months with absolute certainty that I would release them to the public. I vacilitated... Monica was my friend, I knew the story would make her life incredibly difficult, and put her child in a spotlight that Monica would never want for her... but at the same time, I was so disgusted with the President taking advantage of her that I drifted towards releasing the tapes
BW: What helped you make the final decision to go to the media
LT: Two things.... one as you can guess was the final recording where he verbally assaulted her and took no ownership of a situation that he created... and the other was my friend Matt Drudge, I had been confiding elements of the situation to him for some time but never revealing the tapes or the true extent of the situation; but last month, he told me that NEWSWEEK had picked up through other sources... like I said the white house has a gossip ring, that Monica Lewinsky was involved in an innappropriate relationship with the president, and that they where sitting on the story
BW: NEWSWEEK keeping the story quiet made you go public?
LT: It just made me mad... I had tapped a pentagon phone, Monica was my friend, I had a lot to loose releasing the tapes and breaking the story... NEWSWEEK is a media outlet, its their job to report facts come hell or high water... I was afraid that if I didn't say something that the American public wouldn't know who their president was and the shame he was committing in their house
BW: What made you pick Matt Drudge and Sean Hannity to break the story... particularly Drudge's internet site the DRUDGE REPORT
LT: Matt Drudge is a friend, I trust him completely... I was so disgusted with the conventional media, I felt they where biased, like they would squash the story if I told them... like NEWSWEEK was doing; I...I felt the country needed to know, so I had Matt put the tapes on his website, unedited, and unfiltered, to let the public judge for themselves....I listen to Hannity's radio show when I drove home from work... Matt Drudge and I jointly decided that he would be a good place to take the story... that he wasn't inclined to just attack me or sit on the story
BW: Well they certainly got the story out there... Now there are some who are saying the release of the tapes was timed to be a political assault on the president, right before a debate, so close to the election... what do you have to say to those people
LT: Well, I'll be the first to admit the timing made everything a lot more complicated that I would have ever thought this issue would be. But it was the last tape that convinced me to release what I knew, and there was a necessary period to get ready... I had to tell my husband what happened, that was no small issue... Matt Drudge had to increase the capacity of his website to handle the story... we had to convert the tapes so they could be listened to on the internet... I had to consult with my lawyer since releasing the tapes might bring about my dismissal from my job or criminal charges and honestly I was afraid... those things pushed the release of the story back a couple of weeks from my final comittment to go public
BW: Who do you feel bad for in this situation... do you regret the people this has and is hurting?
LT: I feel awful for Monica's child...my sincere hope is that the media will properly distance themselves from him and allow him a chance at a normal life
BW: What about Monica herself... your story has turned a 22 year old's life into a very difficult place
LT: I do feel bad for Monica Lewinsky... I know she consented to the relationship, but at the same time, she was so young, I don't think she had the maturity to appreciate gravity or morality of what she was doing
BW: What about the president or his family
LT: President Clinton absolutely not... I don't have much sympathy for Mrs Clinton either...his extramarital activities where rather obvious, in my opinion, she had made a conscious decision to stay with him inspite of his infidelity and womanizing. I only feel bad for the daughter on the same grounds I feel sorry for Victor Lewinsky
BW: We will be right back with Linda Tripp, you are watching 20/20 on ABC


to be continued...


thoughts?

[Tony]

Character assassination of Clinton to the extent of what I would call death by a thousand cuts:eek:
Would Linda Tripp in this TL get murdered by the FBI?:p

[Gridley]

Did Newsweek really have the story and not run it? I'm not sure it is possible for my opinion of them to drop any lower, but... I can't see them not running a similar scandal if it had been a Republican.

[lloyd007]

Character assassination of Clinton to the extent of what I would call death by a thousand cuts:eek:
Would Linda Tripp in this TL get murdered by the FBI?:p

Tripp is probably the most bulletproof lady in the world right now wrt shadowy govn't conspiracies... she gets killed or disappeared in a mysterious, possibly govn't connected way and the Congress would go nuts.

The kooks and crazies are going to be gunning for her tho... so it might balance out in the end... ;)

Interesting update BW... Linda Tripp is going to have her picture in the big book of cliches next to the "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" entry :p

[historybuff]

Man, he's getting creamed everywhere.

[BlairWitch749]

Did Newsweek really have the story and not run it? I'm not sure it is possible for my opinion of them to drop any lower, but... I can't see them not running a similar scandal if it had been a Republican.

In OTL Lucianne Goldberg (Tripp's publishing agent) had been leaking the story to Michael Isikoff of Newsweek magazine at least 4 months prior to the drudge report getting it... Isikoff had been briefed about the existence of the tapes and his editors where making him sit on the story

In fact, Drudge's original post on the Lewinsky scandal wasn't about Lewinsky par say... someone at newsweek (he never said who, but it might have been Isikoff himself) leaked to him that newsweek was sitting on the story, so drudge said that newsweek was sitting on a story exposing an affair the president was having on January 17th 1998... after that ran and started generating a lot of buzz, newsweek and the washington post went live with the full details of the story on January 21st 1998.... Drudge couldn't go with the full story because he didn't have proof or access to the tapes like Newsweek did... BUT he did have sources confirming that newsweek had the story, and thats what blew the lid off


it was a strange story... drudge himself admitted he had heard that clinton was having an inappropriate relationship with lewinsky as far back as 1995; bu there was no proof, just gossip... it was the existence of the tapes that brought it to the next level

part of me blames newsweek's editorial staff for sitting on the story which smacked of pure partisanship

but the other part understands that nobody had ever exposed a presidential affair before... and pretty much every president in the 20th century (except carter) had extramarital affairs that where kept under wraps

[Antipater]

part of me blames newsweek's editorial staff for sitting on the story which smacked of pure partisanship

but the other part understands that nobody had ever exposed a presidential affair before... and pretty much every president in the 20th century (except carter) had extramarital affairs that where kept under wraps

Just of of curiosity, which presidents other than FDR, JFK, LBJ and Clinton have been credibly accused of committing adultery while holding office? Or are you referring to extramarital affairs before entering the White House?

I can't really imagine a president like Coolidge, Ike, Ford or Reagan conducting an affair during their White House days.

Affairs before entering office...maybe. They were all young and powerful men at one point, and most married relatively early in life. But a happily married family man like Truman, or a granfatherly figure like Reagan or Ike...in the White House...I find that hard to believe.

[NoOneFamous]

Boy Barbara Walters is being damn easy on her.

[Jim Smitty]

The American Ecocomy will get a hugh boost, than it will take the large fall since the 1920s, if Gramm becomes POTUS.:mad::(

[pnyckqx]

BW: NEWSWEEK keeping the story quiet made you go public?
LT: It just made me mad... I had broken the law, Monica was my friend, I had a lot to loose releasing the tapes and breaking the story... NEWSWEEK is a media outlet, its their job to report facts come hell or high water... I was afraid that if I didn't say something that the American public wouldn't know who their president was and the shame he was committing in their house

thoughts?
There is absolutely no way that Linda Tripp would have made such an admission, especially after conferring with Legal council.

The woman is not that stupid, and no lawyer would have allowed her to make an admission of a criminal act on national television!

[BlairWitch749]

Just of of curiosity, which presidents other than FDR, JFK, LBJ and Clinton have been credibly accused of committing adultery while holding office? Or are you referring to extramarital affairs before entering the White House?

I can't really imagine a president like Coolidge, Ike, Ford or Reagan conducting an affair during their White House days.

Affairs before entering office...maybe. They were all young and powerful men at one point, and most married relatively early in life. But a happily married family man like Truman, or a granfatherly figure like Reagan or Ike...in the White House...I find that hard to believe.

I meant generally; including pre and post presidency... George Bush senior had an affair with Jennifer Fitzgerald whilst in office... Ike had a war mistress... Wilson and Harding as well... it seems to have been more the rule than the exception

[BlairWitch749]

Boy Barbara Walters is being damn easy on her.

If you have questions youd like to see in the second part of the interview by all means suggest

[RogueBeaver]

I meant generally; including pre and post presidency... George Bush senior had an affair with Jennifer Fitzgerald whilst in office... Ike had a war mistress... Wilson and Harding as well... it seems to have been more the rule than the exception

Wilson and Harding's weren't as POTUS though, and I don't think 41-Fitzgerald was ever "proven" as much more than nasty gossip from Donna Brazile.

[BlairWitch749]

The American Ecocomy will get a hugh boost, than it will take the large fall since the 1920s, if Gramm becomes POTUS.:mad::(

Once we get past the election (a special rouge beaver contribution) ill cover developments in the stock market

[BlairWitch749]

There is absolutely no way that Linda Tripp would have made such an admission, especially after conferring with Legal council.

The woman is not that stupid, and no lawyer would have allowed her to make an admission of a criminal act on national television!


retconned....

[BlairWitch749]

Wilson and Harding's weren't as POTUS though, and I don't think 41-Fitzgerald was ever "proven" as much more than nasty gossip from Donna Brazile.

The accusations (probably true) on Bush 41 go back to the 1960's... Tripp vehemently denied being the one who leaked Fitzgerald in otl when it came up the second time

Bush and Fitzgerald where close for a LONG time...they where alone often during his RNC days... their relationship was certainly deeper than what Obama has with Valerie Jarett (where the tabloid media has insinuated that they have an inappropriate relationship)

In reading Greenfield's book which explored Bush Sr in more depth on the subject.... I'd lean towards it being true

[NoOneFamous]

Mrs. Tripp, how could you look your friend Monica in the eyes while stabbing her in the back?

Mrs. Tripp, how can you expect your superiors at the Pentagon to trust you after wiretapping phones at the Pentagon? How many other phones have you wiretapped and who else have you spied on?

Mrs.Tripp, what right wing organizations are paying for your legal defense?

[usertron2020]

Mrs. Tripp, how could you look your friend Monica in the eyes while stabbing her in the back?(1)

Mrs. Tripp, how can you expect your superiors at the Pentagon to trust you after wiretapping phones at the Pentagon?(2) How many other phones have you wiretapped and who else have you spied on?(3)

Mrs.Tripp, what right wing organizations are paying for your legal defense?(4)

LT's answers:
1-I DID NOT stab her in the back while I looked her in the eye. I simply waited until she turned around, silly.:p
2-Well, I can always get married and just work for my husband, I suppose. But with the moola I expect to get from my bosses at the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy(TM) I should expect I'll never have to work again!
3-You'll have to wait for my second book...
4-Why, all of them, of course.:rolleyes:

[usertron2020]

Linda Tripp doesn't have much sympathy for Hillary either? Like she's putting Hillary's suffering on the same moral plane as Bill's adultery? That doesn't even make any sense. Way to play to the Hillary-hating GOP base yet at the same time showing the finger to all long suffering wives who have chosen to stick to their marriage vows in spite of unfaithful husbands. Pretty maladroit of her, I thought.

[marcus_aurelius]

Linda Tripp doesn't have much sympathy for Hillary either? Like she's putting Hillary's suffering on the same moral plane as Bill's adultery? That doesn't even make any sense. Way to play to the Hillary-hating GOP base yet at the same time showing the finger to all long suffering wives who have chosen to stick to their marriage vows in spite of unfaithful husbands. Pretty maladroit of her, I thought.

Poor Hillary, she doesn't deserve this. Knowing your husband's fooling around and decide to stick with him is awful enough. This is too much. :(

Which brings me to my true feelings: some sort of horrible accident (derailing train, speeding truck, you name it) needs to happen happen to Linda Tripp. :mad::mad:

Marc A

[mrmandias]

Once we get past the election (a special rouge beaver contribution) ill cover developments in the stock market

A ruddy beaver? Uh. . . .

[BlairWitch749]

Linda Tripp doesn't have much sympathy for Hillary either? Like she's putting Hillary's suffering on the same moral plane as Bill's adultery? That doesn't even make any sense. Way to play to the Hillary-hating GOP base yet at the same time showing the finger to all long suffering wives who have chosen to stick to their marriage vows in spite of unfaithful husbands. Pretty maladroit of her, I thought.

I'll use the second part of the interview to delve deeper into Hillary

I don't have much sympathy for her (perhaps I let that play out through Tripp, although Tripp didn't exactly seem any different in OTL)

Hillary was a big girl, she had and has financial means and education, and the welfare of her daughter to consider. Bill's serial adultry went back at least to the early 80's... it was more than clear she had made an objective choice to stay with Bill even though their marriage as most of us would consider a marriage (a monogomous partnership of respect) was all smoke and mirrors

Keep in mind that in this scenario Hillary is actually embarrassed enough where she is not going to stand by Bill

[BlairWitch749]

Poor Hillary, she doesn't deserve this. Knowing your husband's fooling around and decide to stick with him is awful enough. This is too much. :(

Which brings me to my true feelings: some sort of horrible accident (derailing train, speeding truck, you name it) needs to happen happen to Linda Tripp. :mad::mad:

Marc A

You aren't the first person in this thread to hope that Linda Tripp winds up in a trash compacter :p

[lloyd007]

You aren't the first person in this thread to hope that Linda Tripp winds up in a trash compacter :p

I'm a conservative and even I think Tripp deserves some kinda karma comeuppance right now (not trash compactor though, too banal... I'm thinking more along the lines of her investing all her money in Enron and Global Crossings :D)

[Chengar Qordath]

I'll use the second part of the interview to delve deeper into Hillary

I don't have much sympathy for her (perhaps I let that play out through Tripp, although Tripp didn't exactly seem any different in OTL)

Hillary was a big girl, she had and has financial means and education, and the welfare of her daughter to consider. Bill's serial adultry went back at least to the early 80's... it was more than clear she had made an objective choice to stay with Bill even though their marriage as most of us would consider a marriage (a monogomous partnership of respect) was all smoke and mirrors

Keep in mind that in this scenario Hillary is actually embarrassed enough where she is not going to stand by Bill
I have to agree there, to a limited degree. While I'm not completely unsympathetic to her situation, when it's been obvious for more than a decade that Bill is going to be continually sleeping around, it's hard to argue that she hasn't accepted that Bill will always have affairs, and decided to keep the marriage going anyway.

[BlairWitch749]

I have to agree there, to a limited degree. While I'm not completely unsympathetic to her situation, when it's been obvious for more than a decade that Bill is going to be continually sleeping around, it's hard to argue that she hasn't accepted that Bill will always have affairs, and decided to keep the marriage going anyway.

Indeed, her portrayal of herself as a rah rah burn your bra feminist in the years before and years after was heavily cheapened by her decision to continue her marriage of convenience

within this POD... particularly with Chelsea still being home, I was thinking it would be a big enough shock to convince her that she couldn't enable him anymore

[BlairWitch749]

I'm a conservative and even I think Tripp deserves some kinda karma comeuppance right now (not trash compactor though, too banal... I'm thinking more along the lines of her investing all her money in Enron and Global Crossings :D)

Umm you know Phil Gramm and his wife where major players at Enron right (his wife was a legal defense adviser I think)

say hello bailout and pardons :p

[usertron2020]

Umm you know Phil Gramm and his wife where major players at Enron right (his wife was a legal defense adviser I think)

say hello bailout and pardons :p

Say hello to an off-year 2002 Congressional Election landslide for the Democrats, meaning Gramm is facing an opposition Congress after that.

[usertron2020]

You aren't the first person in this thread to hope that Linda Tripp winds up in a trash compacter :p

Yet to this day the talking head (and Professional Republican) Sean Hannity calls her a saint.:mad:

[bguy]

Say goodbye to Gramm's re-election. Or at least an off-year 1998 Congressional Election landslide for the Democrats, meaning Gramm is facing an opposition Congress after that.

Didn't the Enron scandal break in 2001? Gramm will likely already have been relected by then since in 2000 he'll be running as an incumbant in a time of peace and prosperity.

[usertron2020]

Didn't the Enron scandal break in 2001? Gramm will likely already have been relected by then since in 2000 he'll be running as an incumbant in a time of peace and prosperity.

You're right. I'll fix that post. Gramm can expect to be re-elected. But if he bails out Enron he can expect that off-year Democratic landslide to happen in 2002. And it will be far worse, as it will be in the "six year itch" pattern. Saving Enron will only be throwing gasoline on the fire. Expect a lot of Republicans to stay home that year.

[FDW]

You know, Enron could've easily collapsed earlier of later than it did OTL if you tweak a few things…

[Orville_third]

And, he'd get tarred with 9/11.

[Wendell]

You're right. I'll fix that post. Gramm can expect to be re-elected. But if he bails out Enron he can expect that off-year Democratic landslide to happen in 2002. And it will be far worse, as it will be in the "six year itch" pattern. Saving Enron will only be throwing gasoline on the fire. Expect a lot of Republicans to stay home that year.

Not necessarily. National security is still the pivotal issue unless 9/11 or something similar is butterflied away. Furthermore, the loss of Congress will be spun as the sixth year curse, and perhaps a "natural" end to the previous GOP dominance (from 1994) of Congress.

[BlairWitch749]

Gossip Rings Part II (Chapter 25) - “It was never about Monica Lewinsky. It was never about me.” - Linda Tripp

October 9th 1996 917pm ABC NY Television Studios

BW: Welcome back to 20/20 where we are continuing our interview with Linda Tripp who exposed the President's extramarital affair with a white house staff member and the child that came from it... Mrs Tripp, I wanted to go back over a few things you said in our previous segment. How where you able to look Monica Lewinsky in the face, whilst secretly recording her, in effect creating a mass of evidence to ruin her life. Did you think you where stabbing her in the back?
LT: It was hard, I did, and do like Monica, she is a sweet person and was very kind to me. I had tremendous guilt, like I said earlier, I didn't always think I was going to release the tapes, my recording them wasn't about Monica... it was about President Clinton taking advantage of her and abusing the power of his office... also, keep in mind that NEWSWEEK knew that she was involved with President Clinton... if the media was functioning and not biased, it would have come out, and I think she would have been just as wounded by NEWSWEEK releasing the story as me
BW: How do you expect your superiors at the Pentagon to trust you after breaching a number of rules by tapping pentagon telephones
LT: They might not... I wish that were not the case, I have long career and top secret clearance. I worked for the Delta force and treated the discretion of my position with absolute and unconditional respect. I saw an abuse of power, and I wanted to blow the whistle, I felt it was my duty to create a record of what I knew
BW: Did you tap other phones there, the DRUDGE REPORT has become notorious this year for getting advanced notice of stories; where you leaking other information to Matt Drudge besides the President's relationship with Monica Lewinsky?
LT: I never tapped any other phone except my own and Monica Lewinsky's. Matt Drudge is a friend and he I speak regularly and have for a long time, but I NEVER gave him or his website secret or classified information
BW: Sources at the Pentagon are looking into subpeoning your's and Matt Drudge email records and telephone logs... you are saying they will not find evidence of your leaking information to him or breaking the law
LT: I'll say it again I didn't give Matt Drudge or his website any classified or secret information
BW: Did you leak unclassified information to him? I noted you made a distinction twice and I want to make sure I understand clearly
LT: If its unclassified then it is public knowledge and not a leak by definition, I broke no laws or rules of my work in my relationship with Matt Drudge
BW: Is any of this benefitting you financially in any way. Are members of the republican party or the media donating to your legal defense or personal expenses?
LT: I am receiving a portion of the Drudge Report's proceeds whilst my story is part of their website. This was not arranged or contracted before hand... it is a personal gift from Matt Drudge, there is a good chance I will lose my job and have difficulty finding a new one and he thought it was proper that I shouldn't have my story lead to bankruptcy... I have not received any money or considered any offers of money to provide for my legal defense
BW: Let me stop you there, are you saying you won't accept money or start a legal defense fund that enemies of president clinton or personal backers of Phil Gramm might donate to
LT: I haven't been charged with anything and hope that I will not be, at this time that's all I can say about it
BW: Have you had contact with Phil Gramm or anyone associated with his campaign before during or after your breaking of the story...the timing of the release has had people question if there is connection between you drudge, hannity and the campaign
LT: I have met Senator Gramm in my work capacities a few times over the last decade, understand that I worked at the White House and the Pentagon which are places a sitting Senator would frequent. I never met him alone, he was always with a Senate delagation, and I have never actually spoken to him. I have had no contact with anyone from his campaign or anyone in the Republican party regarding anything related to Monica Lewinsky
BW: Now I want to talk about Kathleen Willey, her story was released just minutes before the debate. This particular issue is giving ammunition to people who say you conducted a calculated political attack why did that come out when it did, why did you release everything at the same time
LT: Well I knew about Kathleen Willey and the president's encounter, I had seen it BUT I didn't have anything like the tapes to prove it. I had seen it, and indeed Kathleen had told me about it BUT without her willingness to come forward I had nothing but an accusation of seeing the aftermath of something inappropriate
BW: And Kathleen Willey came to you and asked for you to put the story out there
LT: Yes, once she saw the Monica Lewinsky story with me as a source, she called me asked that I announce her encounter with President Clinton as well, and that she would corroberate what I had seen in 1993. So I went to Matt Drudge and he put and he announced the that the story would be upcoming on his website, then we drafted the article and posted it an hour later before I went on Sean Hannity's news special
BW: Are you 100% certain that Willey was with the President in the manner she described. Administration officials have said it's unfounded and that its a baseless accusation being used to pile on to the Lewinsky scandal
LT: I apologize to Paul Begala and James Carville for not videotaping the president's encounter with Kathleen Willey... honestly, what I saw was enough to convince me something happened, Kathleen Willey told me it happened and given President Clinton's behavior patterns....yes I'm 100% certain that there was inappropriate contact between President Clinton and Kathleen Willey
BW: If Monica Lewinsky was your daughter, would you have wanted her and your grandson outed in the way you did to her
LT: I'm not proud of the situation, the good in showing the President's abuse of his office and of a young woman has a hard time canceling out the awfulness of where Monica's life is right now...blowing the whistle is often not an easy task
BW: I have heard you and members of the media talk about Monica's transfer to the Pentagon be an abuse... but the speculation has gone both towards Clinton administration officials wanting to get rid of her due to a fear of her being to close to the President OR Clinton wanting to reward his mistress with increased salary and benefits... what do you think the true situation was
LT: I don't know, in my case it was abuse in wanting to get rid of me because they thought I had blown the whistle on George Bush and Jennifer Fitzgerald; which I had nothing to do with. In Monica's case I honestly don't know... the tapes don't provide a clear answer... I assume force of investigation will figure that detail out for what it is... the history of tactic is certainly there
BW: This might certainly have a pronounced effect on the upcoming presidential election... the polls have certainly shown it... do you think President Clinton deserves reelection
LT: All I did was bring the story to the public, what the public does with it is their business... I dissaprove of President Clinton's conduct; as you can understand by listening to the tapes... that's all I have to say in the matter.
BW: So you won't be endorsing, donating or supporting Senator Gramm in anyway
LT: I've served a number of administrations of various political persuasions, my issues with President Clinton do not translate into unconditional or conditional support for Senator Gramm or the Republican party
BW: I'd like to thank Linda Tripp for appearing on this special addition of 20/20, I'm Barbara Walters, Goodnight

[historybuff]

She handled herself pretty well.

[Hendryk]

Indeed, her portrayal of herself as a rah rah burn your bra feminist in the years before and years after was heavily cheapened by her decision to continue her marriage of convenience
I see that your objectivity is on the same level as your punctuation.

[BlairWitch749]

I see that your objectivity is on the same level as your punctuation.

You don't think there is anything contradictory about portraying yourself as a staunch feminist and staying with a husband who is a serial adulterer?

I've actually had Hillary's feminism win out in this TL by having her leave Bill for the sake of her dignity and her daughter (as opposed to her public enabling and defacto approval of Bill's behavior) as a liberal this should be a pleasing pod for you :)

[Hendryk]

You don't think there is anything contradictory about portraying yourself as a staunch feminist and staying with a husband who is a serial adulterer?

I've actually had Hillary's feminism win out in this TL by having her leave Bill for the sake of her dignity and her daughter (as opposed to her public enabling and defacto approval of Bill's behavior) as a liberal this should be a pleasing pod for you :)
I think that this TL has been a blatant author tract from the start, and that you're in such a hurry to share your ideological wish fulfilment fantasies with us that you can't even be bothered to proofread your posts for proper punctuation.

[BlairWitch749]

I think that this TL has been a blatant author tract from the start, and that you're in such a hurry to share your ideological wish fulfilment fantasies with us that you can't even be bothered to proofread your posts for proper punctuation.

Going back and correcting punctuation/spelling/syntax has a tendency to make me give up (it's just a mental block, not an excuse) and I would never post anything

There are plenty of author tracts on this board, there is no requirement for political timelines to be objectively neutral.

This TL is a destruction of Clinton piece NOT a republican wank.

I don't see you commenting in all the half assed President Al Gore timelines saying the authors are not objective

If you have an actual nitpick or disagreement within the TL as opposed to me personally or my writing style, I would be happy to take that criticism and learn from it:)

[Burton K Wheeler]

I think that this TL has been a blatant author tract from the start, and that you're in such a hurry to share your ideological wish fulfilment fantasies with us that you can't even be bothered to proofread your posts for proper punctuation.

Trolling, with bonus grammar flames. You know better.

Kicked for a week.

[usertron2020]

Going back and correcting punctuation/spelling/syntax has a tendency to make me give up (it's just a mental block, not an excuse) and I would never post anything.(1)

There are plenty of author tracts on this board, there is no requirement for political timelines to be objectively neutral.(2)

This TL is a destruction of Clinton piece NOT a republican wank.(3)

I don't see you commenting in all the half assed President Al Gore timelines saying the authors are not objective.(4)

1-True. Anyone on the forum who is a history buff but NOT a trained writer will have these problems. Besides, the criticism of your punctuation is very unfair. In the real world, we all have editors for that. Nothing would ever get published if every writer had to proofread, cut, and edit all of their own works.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2-But it CAN get you thrown into the nether bowels of CHAT.:eek: In a bookstore, that means moving your book from "History-Fantasy" to "Current Affairs".:(
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3-It can honestly be said that you cannot have the one without the other. If you dismiss Hendryk's trolling for a moment, there is one part of his criticism, however viscously directed and insensitive, that has a point. The title says the ruin of Clinton. Agreed. I have no patience for the bastard either. Not since the lab results came back.

But going after Hillary? She made her Devil's Bargain all right. But she, and the country, couldn't believe he would take it to the Oval Office with him. Do you remember the infamous fight in the Arkansas Governor's mansion? The one the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy(TM) doesn't want you to know about because it discourages the "Hillary the Lesbian" gossip (a lot of it spread by Lucianne Goldberg)? There were limits to what even IOTL that Hillary would accept, and Bill knew that. That's why his actions were a "conspiracy of one". He trusted no one with the knowledge of what happened. ITTL, prior to this, there had never been a whisper of a bastard, other than the routinely introduced and re-introduced and re-introduced fake "black Clinton love child."

Glorifying Gramm and speculating he'll be a two-termer? I'm afraid Hendryk has you there. Grammonomics, with 20/20 hindsight, would have accelerated the dot-com bubble bursting and only made it worse. You have, unfortunately, been guilty of wishful thinking on that score, even if on nothing else. I see the TL as is fully workable, but Gramm's not going to enjoy good economic times when HE'S at the helm of the economy, rather than Bill Clinton. Oh, the numbers WILL skyrocket at first, as they always do in an overheated economy. But any economist worth his salt will tell you that the hotter the economy, and the FASTER it grows, the bigger the crash, and the SOONER it will come.
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4-There really isn't much worth saying about a man who couldn't carry his home state. Except on foreign policy adventures, or lack thereof. Assuming 911 happens, no Iraq, and doubling down on Afghanistan. Probable re-election, but with the economy? No way to guess. Besides, Gore WAS pretty lame. What happened to Tipper? I can see though how a partisan will draw up a Gore Utopia.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Gore TL's are really only good for the recount in Florida.

[archaeogeek]

You don't think there is anything contradictory about portraying yourself as a staunch feminist and staying with a husband who is a serial adulterer?

I've actually had Hillary's feminism win out in this TL by having her leave Bill for the sake of her dignity and her daughter (as opposed to her public enabling and defacto approval of Bill's behavior) as a liberal this should be a pleasing pod for you :)

No, I actually see no issue with being a feminist and being partnered with someone who has adventures. It all depends on the understanding of their own couple, which seems to have held up quite well - while cheating is not good, it's not rape either, it's a communication issue. But what would I know about this, given that I'm one of the rare feminists on this board.

You want another american presidential couple where a feminist wife had a husband who had affairs? FDR and Eleanore Roosevelt. In fact, she, too, had an affair with another woman at the same time. They still held together extremely well.

And Clinton is very much not your nonsensical "bra burning feminazi" caricature. That said, I'll be honest, the moment I hit the part where you pointed out you retconned things, I started questioning whether it was alt-history or wish fulfilment.

[Caesar Australis]

You don't think there is anything contradictory about portraying yourself as a staunch feminist and staying with a husband who is a serial adulterer?
No not at all, their's nothing inherently unfemininist about an open marriage, certainly not if the wife consents-and I suspect Hillary in fact consented to it even though she can't state that outright in public because it would freak out the generally conservative American public. Hell i'm not sure it qualifies as misogynist for a husband to cheat even without his wife's consent- we don't consider a women cheating on her husband to constitute misandry after all, and I don't see any reason for the double standard.

Of course Clinton getting a girl pregnant with associated media derision is a quite a step beyond that, and it's better for this excellent TL for Hillary to react by divorcing him:).

[Shadowlord]

You don't think there is anything contradictory about portraying yourself as a staunch feminist and staying with a husband who is a serial adulterer?

No, there is nothing contradictory. Feminism is about equal rights and opportunities for women. You can believe in that viewpoint and still be in an open marriage. Archaeogeek's example of FDR and Eleanor illustrates that very well.

[usertron2020]

You want another american presidential couple where a feminist wife had a husband who had affairs? FDR and Eleanor Roosevelt. In fact, she, too, had an affair with another woman at the same time*. They still held together very well.

Have you ever seen the sleeping arrangements at Hyde Park? Mrs. Delano, FDR's mother, was One. Sick. Woman.:mad: But with a personality so powerful that she always got her way till the day she died. By the time the Roosevelts got to the White House, their marraige was over, and it was the fault of neither of them. They still had a great friendship, but you couldn't call them a truly married couple.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-Now who's engaged in wishful thinking?:D In 1943, the US Army Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) was following a suspected communist, a sergeant Joe Lash. Turns out that he had as a friend Eleanor and a woman Trude Pratt, who was also a friend of Eleanor. On one particular weekend the three of them spent the night in a hotel with Lash in one room and Pratt and Eleanor in the other. The CIC officer following Lash noted in his log that the three of them went to sleep and no further sounds could be heard.

The following weekend Pratt and Lash went to the same hotel and shared a room together. The CIC officer on duty that weekend noted that loud noises could be heard indicating amorous activities. Inside the nether reaches of the military bureaucracy, the two reports got mixed up and were combined as one, with Pratt's name dropped entirely. The final report was dropped on FDR's desk that Eleanor was having an affair with a young soldier 26 years her junior!:eek:

Considering FDR's past peccadilloes, he must have relished the moment. When FDR confronted her with the report, all bloody hell broke loose.:p When she told him about Pratt, and Pratt and Lash's relationship was confirmed (they were already engaged, and the next year were married), the consequences for the CIC were...unpleasant. The responsible officers found themselves quickly transferred to the Solomon Islands.:eek:

Source? Two pissed off CIC officers told Hoover, who simply stuffed the story in his files. Eisenhower also found out when he discovered the CIC had been gutted prior to D-Day. But he never got the specific details beyond that the CIC had grossly overstepped their bounds with the White House. The files were opened up after Hoover died.

Remember, the more you want a rumor to be true, the more likely it isn't. BTW, if it's a lesbian First Lady you're thinking of, surely that would be Mamie Eisenhower?:confused:

[NoOneFamous]

I think that this TL has been a blatant author tract from the start, and that you're in such a hurry to share your ideological wish fulfilment fantasies with us that you can't even be bothered to proofread your posts for proper punctuation.

Um if you don't like it, then don't read it or comment on it.

[BlairWitch749]

1-True. Anyone on the forum who is a history buff but NOT a trained writer will have these problems. Besides, the criticism of your punctuation is very unfair. In the real world, we all have editors for that. Nothing would ever get published if every writer had to proofread, cut, and edit all of their own works.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2-But it CAN get you thrown into the nether bowels of CHAT.:eek: In a bookstore, that means moving your book from "History-Fantasy" to "Current Affairs".:(
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3-It can honestly be said that you cannot have the one without the other. If you dismiss Hendryk's trolling for a moment, there is one part of his criticism, however viscously directed and insensitive, that has a point. The title says the ruin of Clinton. Agreed. I have no patience for the bastard either. Not since the lab results came back.

But going after Hillary? She made her Devil's Bargain all right. But she, and the country, couldn't believe he would take it to the Oval Office with him. Do you remember the infamous fight in the Arkansas Governor's mansion? The one the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy(TM) doesn't want you to know about because it discourages the "Hillary the Lesbian" gossip (a lot of it spread by Lucianne Goldberg)? There were limits to what even IOTL that Hillary would accept, and Bill knew that. That's why his actions were a "conspiracy of one". He trusted no one with the knowledge of what happened. ITTL, prior to this, there had never been a whisper of a bastard, other than the routinely introduced and re-introduced and re-introduced fake "black Clinton love child."

Glorifying Gramm and speculating he'll be a two-termer? I'm afraid Hendryk has you there. Grammonomics, with 20/20 hindsight, would have accelerated the dot-com bubble bursting and only made it worse. You have, unfortunately, been guilty of wishful thinking on that score, even if on nothing else. I see the TL as is fully workable, but Gramm's not going to enjoy good economic times when HE'S at the helm of the economy, rather than Bill Clinton. Oh, the numbers WILL skyrocket at first, as they always do in an overheated economy. But any economist worth his salt will tell you that the hotter the economy, and the FASTER it grows, the bigger the crash, and the SOONER it will come.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4-There really isn't much worth saying about a man who couldn't carry his home state. Except on foreign policy adventures, or lack thereof. Assuming 911 happens, no Iraq, and doubling down on Afghanistan. Probable re-election, but with the economy? No way to guess. Besides, Gore WAS pretty lame. What happened to Tipper? I can see though how a partisan will draw up a Gore Utopia.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Gore TL's are really only good for the recount in Florida.


1. My grammar is not going to improve, whilst maintaining my current level of contribution; if I get published I'll have someone spell everything correctly

2. It can, but the actual narrative of this TL has been on topic, some posters within the thread have gone off the reservation or been speculating too much into modern politics and need to cut it out... there are several 2010 election UK POD threads on this board, my TL if anything has less to do with modern politics than other things accepted in the post 1900 section

3. Hillary has not been gone after within the tl... her POD is to have her rage, and shock be enough to make her leave Bill (compounded by Chelsea still living at home)... I had Linda Tripp not have sympathy for her (which is her otl attitude given her actions) and I stated that I thought her OTL actions where at odds with her public feminist stances... Hillary will end up ahead in this TL as it progresses

OTHER posters speculated Gramm would have two terms... the only thing I said that could even be construed as that was responding to Lloyd's suggestion that Linda Tripp should lose all of her money in Enron by saying that Gramm was a major OTL player in Enron (which was a joke and had a tongue out smiley following it)... of course if that did happen Gramm wouldn't be as tied into Enron, because when elected he would be required to divest most of his securities (Congress made Cheney sell a lot of his Haliburton stock to remove the image of a potential conflict of interest, and it ended up getting him out right before the bubble burst and he made a killing... THEN he was accused of insider trading :p)

Glorifying Gramm? Outside of stating he was younger, and more energetic than Bob Dole where has this happened? If anything he has been a very minor character so far in this TL.... I'm curious what policy you are suggesting would happen under Gramm that didn't happen during W's administration with a Republican congress (01-06)... the only one I can think of W doing to the stock market during that time was taking away the uptick rule, which allowed runaway short selling which bombed the banks worse than would have otherwise happened.... this would of course make any popping of the dot.com bubble worse BUT it wouldn't hasten the popping of that bubble (unless you are aware of another policy he would enact?)

4. I'll comment on the gore TL's in a general sense....
1 MOST of them come from a partisan dislike of W
2 The dot.com bubble would have popped anyway and was already in the process of at inaguration time
3. Gore proposed tax cuts that where about 73 percent of what W wanted so the surplus still goes away
4. Gore was on board with ALL of Clinton's military adventurism including the various bombing and missile strikes against Iraq (including desert fox)... the iraq regime change laws that went through congress AND Clinton's threats to go into Iraq due to Saddam not cooperating with UN disarmament mandates whereas W ran (not governed of course) as and pseudo isolationist who was against nation building
5. The opposition to the Iraq war (from the politicians) was narrowly political, you'll notice the dems (except the stalwarts like Kucinich) now don't really care that we are going to extend our presence in Iraq. Hawks like Kerry, Hillary Clinton and indeed VP Leiberman wouldn't be opposed to messing with Iraq.... President Gore doesn't necessarily butterfly away the Iraq war

[historybuff]

I like where this is going. Don't give up just some readers don't know what they're talking about as far as I know.

[BlairWitch749]

No, I actually see no issue with being a feminist and being partnered with someone who has adventures. It all depends on the understanding of their own couple, which seems to have held up quite well - while cheating is not good, it's not rape either, it's a communication issue. But what would I know about this, given that I'm one of the rare feminists on this board.

You want another american presidential couple where a feminist wife had a husband who had affairs? FDR and Eleanore Roosevelt. In fact, she, too, had an affair with another woman at the same time. They still held together extremely well.

And Clinton is very much not your nonsensical "bra burning feminazi" caricature. That said, I'll be honest, the moment I hit the part where you pointed out you retconned things, I started questioning whether it was alt-history or wish fulfilment.

The two retcons
1 having the secret service be more discreet and arrest a national enquirer photographer
2 have linda tripp more carefully phrase her recount of actions during her interview with barbara walters to not incriminate herself

where in response to nitpicks within the tl... I don't quite follow how that goes to wish fulfillment

I'll clarify what I meant about Hillary... yes you can have an "open" marriage and still operate as a feminist

However this was not how Hillary portrayed the situation... she had spent the previous decade and more portraying her family as middle american, recanting stories of her Chelsea and Bill packing cookies and sandwhiches into a station wagon and going out to campaign; whilst also happily pointing to her education and activeness in politics to make herself a role model to young girls

Feminism, as I see it (for what it's worth) also involves not allowing yourself or women in general to be demeaned and humiliated. Bill having a trist with a government clerk, and leaving conclusive proof thereof AND Hillary's subsequent standing by him where both demeaning to her and humiliating; hence my thought that she betrayed her supposed feminist ideals

[mrmandias]

That says as much, if not more, about your ideological biases as it does the author's.

I think that this TL has been a blatant author tract from the start, and that you're in such a hurry to share your ideological wish fulfilment fantasies with us that you can't even be bothered to proofread your posts for proper punctuation.

[THE OBSERVER]

Given the recent events that have been reported in the news, I take it this is the most popular forum here right now.

[archaeogeek]

Feminism, as I see it (for what it's worth) also involves not allowing yourself or women in general to be demeaned and humiliated. Bill having a trist with a government clerk, and leaving conclusive proof thereof AND Hillary's subsequent standing by him where both demeaning to her and humiliating; hence my thought that she betrayed her supposed feminist ideals

You have the most absurd reading of feminism I've ever seen. It was her own decision to weather it.

[Wendell]

The thing you forget, BW, is that there is often little uniformity among modern feminists. Feminism alone is not a justification for Hillary to leave Bill.

[usertron2020]

The thing you forget, BW, is that there is often little uniformity among modern feminists. Feminism alone is not a justification for Hillary to leave Bill.

Um, am I the only one here who knows the details of the historic Hillary blowup with Bill in the Arkansas Governor's Mansion? I mentioned it, but nobody commented on it.:confused:

[RPW@Cy]

The thing you forget, BW, is that there is often little uniformity among modern feminists. Feminism alone is not a justification for Hillary to leave Bill.

Indeed. There is another possibility that as far as I can tell hasn't been mentioned yet. Maybe she simply loves him, flaws and all? Not everything has to be about politics, even for the Clintons.

[Chengar Qordath]

Um, am I the only one here who knows the details of the historic Hillary blowup with Bill in the Arkansas Governor's Mansion? I mentioned it, but nobody commented on it.:confused:

I'm not familiar with it; got a good link to the story? Could make for some interesting reading.

[usertron2020]

I'm not familiar with it; got a good link to the story? Could make for some interesting reading.

I believe it's in Sidney Blumenthal's "The Clinton Wars". Warning: It's not a balanced history. Very pro-Clinton.:rolleyes: But the reference involves the story of "Troopergate" as it happened. Specifically, Bill's screwing around during his days as governor, and Hillary's reaction to it. They had a brouhaha that went on for some time behind closed doors, and pretty much everyone in the mansion knew what was happening, even though precise words couldn't be made out. But there was one phrase Hillary screamed at the top of her lungs that could be heard throughout the mansion: "I NEED TO BE FUCKED MORE THAN TWICE A MONTH!":mad: Not something either side wants to talk about. The Clintons because of Hillary's language, and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (TM) because it takes away from the lesbian stories.

Sorry, but I'm a complete Luddite when it comes to establishing links.:o:o

[Plumber]

I believe it's in Sidney Blumenthal's "The Clinton Wars". Warning: It's not a balanced history. Very pro-Clinton.:rolleyes: But the reference involves the story of "Troopergate" as it happened. Specifically, Bill's screwing around during his days as governor, and Hillary's reaction to it. They had a brouhaha that went on for some time behind closed doors, and pretty much everyone in the mansion knew what was happening, even though precise words couldn't be made out. But there was one phrase Hillary screamed at the top of her lungs that could be heard throughout the mansion: "I NEED TO BE FUCKED MORE THAN TWICE A MONTH!":mad: Not something either side wants to talk about. The Clintons because of Hillary's language, and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (TM) because it takes away from the lesbian stories.

Sorry, but I'm a complete Luddite when it comes to establishing links.:o:o
Twice a month? Wow, that IS bad. :(
When did their relationship go downhill? The most I've read of their personal life is on Wikipedia, and it seems Bill tried to get Hillary to marry him a bunch of times before she actually did.

[historybuff]

Wow, that bad. First time I've heard of it.

I hope Blairwitch keeps this TL going and doesn't give up just cuz of what some people are saying about it.

[BlairWitch749]

Twice a month? Wow, that IS bad. :(
When did their relationship go downhill? The most I've read of their personal life is on Wikipedia, and it seems Bill tried to get Hillary to marry him a bunch of times before she actually did.

The rumors of his sexual escapades go back before they where married, and issues about his infidelity within the marriage started early.... certainly before Chelsea was born and a whole lot more after that

[usertron2020]

Twice a month? Wow, that IS bad. :(
When did their relationship go downhill? The most I've read of their personal life is on Wikipedia, and it seems Bill tried to get Hillary to marry him a bunch of times before she actually did.

It always burned me that the Clintons' enemies were trying to excuse Bill Clinton's rampant adultery by claiming Hillary was gay. Basically, getting two birds with one stone. Hill isn't gay. As if the VRWC(TM) wouldn't have unearthed someone by now. Even a perjurer. Lucianne Goldberg spread her share of lesbian stories, even that Hillary molested Chelsea!:eek: But Goldberg always made it clear to all that she was speaking hearsay and her "sources" issued blanket denials. In fact, Bill was doing so much funny business he didn't have anything left to take care of business back home. Bill Clinton, Hugh Grant, and Prince Charles all showed colossal misjudgment where their wives were concerned.

As to when their relationship went downhill? Seeing Bill's history, he probably stated cheating on her during her pregnancy with Chelsea.:rolleyes:
EDIT: BW. BEFORE Chelsea's conception? Ugh! But I believe it.

[BlairWitch749]

It always burned me that the Clintons' enemies were trying to excuse Bill Clinton's rampant adultery by claiming Hillary was gay. Basically, getting two birds with one stone. Hill isn't gay. As if the VRWC(TM) wouldn't have unearthed someone by now. Even a perjurer. Lucianne Goldberg spread her share of lesbian stories, even that Hillary molested Chelsea!:eek: But Goldberg always made it clear to all that she was speaking hearsay and her "sources" issued blanket denials. In fact, Bill was doing so much funny business he didn't have anything left to take care of business back home. Bill Clinton, Hugh Grant, and Prince Charles all showed colossal misjudgment where their wives were concerned.

As to when their relationship went downhill? Seeing Bill's history, he probably stated cheating on her during her pregnancy with Chelsea.:rolleyes:
EDIT: BW. BEFORE Chelsea's conception? Ugh! But I believe it.


The Jaunita Broderick thing happened before Chelsea was born... and his reputation for tristing was already well established... think Tiger Woods

[usertron2020]

The Jaunita Broderick thing happened before Chelsea was born... and his reputation for tristing was already well established... think Tiger Woods

I believe it.

[BlairWitch749]

Twice a month? Wow, that IS bad. :(
When did their relationship go downhill? The most I've read of their personal life is on Wikipedia, and it seems Bill tried to get Hillary to marry him a bunch of times before she actually did.

Twice a month isn't that bad given that they both had high powered jobs with long hours and high levels of stress that left little family time

Bill Clinton (outside of maybe Nixon) is probably the most workaholic president of the 20th century... even ignoring whatever his personal attitude is in the matter; the sheer exhaustion and stress of his lifestyle was bound to lead him to mistakes of judgement and to make his sexual desires.... lets say fleeting

[Gridley]

Bill Clinton (snip) and to make his sexual desires.... lets say fleeting

Then why did he have all those affairs?

[BlairWitch749]

Then why did he have all those affairs?

cause he had 10 minutes for horniness and monica was the closest chick around before he had to get back to work :D

[RogueBeaver]

cause he had 10 minutes for horniness and monica was the closest chick around before he had to get back to work :D

So the JFK principle then: Slam, bam, thank you ma'am. Though admittedly the pool and the Resolute desk are entirely different venues...

[BlairWitch749]

So the JFK principle then: Slam, bam, thank you ma'am. Though admittedly the pool and the Resolute desk are entirely different venues...

Basically this was more or less how everyone who had an affair (proven or not) described their encounter with Clinton

[usertron2020]

Twice a month isn't that bad given that they both had high powered jobs with long hours and high levels of stress that left little family time

Bill Clinton (outside of maybe Nixon) is probably the most workaholic president of the 20th century... even ignoring whatever his personal attitude is in the matter; the sheer exhaustion and stress of his lifestyle was bound to lead him to mistakes of judgement and to make his sexual desires.... lets say fleeting

My point was, whatever it was with Slick Willie, Hillary wasn't talking (SCREAMING!) about family time in the sense of Bill and Hillary taking Chelsea to the amusement park together. This was about being in bed and ready for husbandly duties, whether at bedtime or at dawn. Bill was getting all he wanted, whenever he wanted, but Hillary certainly was not. And apparently, TWICE A MONTH IS THAT BAD, where Hillary was concerned.:D

I just think that with the title "feminist", the pantsuits, Bill's affairs, the ceaseless VRWC(tm) talk of lesbianism, the double humiliation of Monicagate and the Impeachment, it's become impossible for most people to think of Hillary as ever having been a sexual creature.

[BlairWitch749]

My point was, whatever it was with Slick Willie, Hillary wasn't talking (SCREAMING!) about family time in the sense of Bill and Hillary taking Chelsea to the amusement park together. This was about being in bed and ready for husbandly duties, whether at bedtime or at dawn. Bill was getting all he wanted, whenever he wanted, but Hillary certainly was not. And apparently, TWICE A MONTH IS THAT BAD, where Hillary was concerned.:D

I just think that with the title "feminist", the pantsuits, Bill's affairs, the ceaseless VRWC(tm) talk of lesbianism, the double humiliation of Monicagate and the Impeachment, it's become impossible for most people to think of Hillary as ever having been a sexual creature.


Like I said Bill was a workaholic... he didn't have one of his ladies every single night... based on an honest look at his affairs his encounters where pretty spread out... BUT even when not with one of his lady friends he had a strong tendancy to be in the office till 1 or 2 in the morning, plus he was notorious for late night mcdonalds or wendy's runs and there is nothing more awful than trying to have intercourse when you are exhausted AND have a full belly/indegestion

[Commissar]

The things I miss playing Total War Mods.

Hmm...

Well time for Clinton to hit back and hit back hard by exposing the entirety of Congress's affairs.

Starting with McCain divorcing his crippled wife for a younger rich one, ect.

Lastly, he needs to go on an apology and redemption offensive. Lastly, go the "Its the Economy Stupid," route again.

[usertron2020]

The things I miss playing Total War Mods.

Hmm...

Well time for Clinton to hit back and hit back hard by exposing the entirety of Congress's affairs.

Starting with McCain divorcing his crippled wife for a younger rich one, ect.

Lastly, he needs to go on an apology and redemption offensive. Lastly, go the "Its the Economy Stupid," route again.

Well, there's no perjury, here. But that's never been what it's all about. Removal of Clinton by the Senate was never in the cards, no matter what Sean Hannity saw in his fever dreams. This will end in the election.

[bguy]

The things I miss playing Total War Mods.

Hmm...

Well time for Clinton to hit back and hit back hard by exposing the entirety of Congress's affairs.

Starting with McCain divorcing his crippled wife for a younger rich one, ect.

Lastly, he needs to go on an apology and redemption offensive. Lastly, go the "Its the Economy Stupid," route again.

What good would attacking McCain do? He's not the Republican candidate and most of the country has never even heard of him at this point in time. The reaction would be a universal "John Who?" And resorting to an "all the other guys are doing it" defense is just going to come across as pathetic.

As for focusing on the economy how exactly is he supposed to do that? For the rest of the campaign the media isn't going to be talking about budget deficits and interest rates. They are going to be talking non-stop about the Lewinsky affair. It would take something on the scale of 9-11 to change the media narrative at this point.

[usertron2020]

What good would attacking McCain do? He's not the Republican candidate and most of the country has never even heard of him at this point in time. The reaction would be a universal "John Who?" And resorting to an "all the other guys are doing it" defense is just going to come across as pathetic.

As for focusing on the economy how exactly is he supposed to do that? For the rest of the campaign the media isn't going to be talking about budget deficits and interest rates. They are going to be talking non-stop about the Lewinsky affair. It would take something on the scale of 9-11 to change the media narrative at this point.

Exactly. All diversion talk will do is emphasize that Phil Gramm ISN'T doing it.:p

[Commissar]

What good would attacking McCain do? He's not the Republican candidate and most of the country has never even heard of him at this point in time. The reaction would be a universal "John Who?" And resorting to an "all the other guys are doing it" defense is just going to come across as pathetic.

Simple, Clinton doesn't have to do this part personally, but combined with Liberal Pundits hitting back that "Clinton's private life is his own affair," can help wonders as well. It will also discredit most of his detractors in Congress as hypocrites.

As for focusing on the economy how exactly is he supposed to do that? For the rest of the campaign the media isn't going to be talking about budget deficits and interest rates. They are going to be talking non-stop about the Lewinsky affair. It would take something on the scale of 9-11 to change the media narrative at this point.

Simple, after explaining his actions only once, he goes on his own media offensive touting his economic policies and ask the American people what is more important?

A human competent president or a moral but incompetent president?

In the end, most of those who would care about Clinton's affair won't vote anyway as they all stayed home that election, and those who benefited from Clinton's policies will win him the electoral college.

Phil Gramm by the way is the one responsible for the irresponsible deregulation laws that enabled the Housing Bubble and Enron when he should have known better after the savings and loans disaster of the 80s.

Because of that idiot's deregulation drive, we'll have a paralyzed housing market and bankruptcy court system till attorneys review hundreds of thousands of documents for broken chains of title and forged signatures.

[bguy]

Simple, Clinton doesn't have to do this part personally, but combined with Liberal Pundits hitting back that "Clinton's private life is his own affair," can help wonders as well. It will also discredit most of his detractors in Congress as hypocrites.

If liberal pundits defend Clinton on this issue it just keeps the issue alive (thus sucking up all the oxygen from any "It's the economy, stupid" push. And I still don't see why you think exposing the affairs of others is going to help Clinton any against Gramm? The American people aren't going to care if Congressman Backbencher from the middle of nowhere had an affair, since they have no idea who he is. Unless there is evidence of Gramm having an affair, all that talking about the affairs of others does is keep the issue alive and make Gramm look even better by compairison.

There's also the question of how many liberals are going to want to sully their own reputations by continuing to defend Clinton (especially after Hillary bolts.) Carville and company will stay loyal of course, but a lot of Democrat operatives and politicians will probably see they can make more hay at this point attacking Clinton. I hope we get an update from Gore at some point. He's got to be considering his own political future here (to say nothing of the personal distaste he is going to feel at Clinton's actions.) It's not inconceivable he would chose to withdraw from the ticket.

Simple, after explaining his actions only once, he goes on his own media offensive touting his economic policies and ask the American people what is more important?

A human competent president or a moral but incompetent president?

The President of the United States is not only the head of government, he is also head of state. Being a figure that people can respect and admire is a core presidential responsibility.

And a media offensive only works if the media plays along. What do you think is going to get them more ratings, discussion of Clinton's economic policy or discussion of his sex life?

In the end, most of those who would care about Clinton's affair won't vote anyway as they all stayed home that election, and those who benefited from Clinton's policies will win him the electoral college.?

So you think that the socially conservative working class voters who supported Clinton in OTL will overlook him getting a young girl pregnant because the Dow Jones is up?

Phil Gramm by the way is the one responsible for the irresponsible deregulation laws that enabled the Housing Bubble and Enron when he should have known better after the savings and loans disaster of the 80s.

LOL. Who exactly was President when that legislation was enacted? :D

[BlairWitch749]

In the end, most of those who would care about Clinton's affair won't vote anyway as they all stayed home that election, and those who benefited from Clinton's policies will win him the electoral college.




Commissar,

there is no objective way to compare that to this ATL. The Lewinsky scandal broke in 1998 in OTL well after Clinton would never have to run for elected office again. The 1996 voter knew NOTHING about Monica Lewinsky

its asb to assume the elctoral dynamic clinton enjoyed (particularly among married suburban women) would possibly be the same with scandal (let alone an enhanced version of the scandal) breaking 4 weeks before election day 96

[Commissar]

Commissar,

there is no objective way to compare that to this ATL. The Lewinsky scandal broke in 1998 in OTL well after Clinton would never have to run for elected office again. The 1996 voter knew NOTHING about Monica Lewinsky

Ms. Flowers ring any bells? The Public knew all about Bill's affair with this woman in the 1992 Election and it did nothing to hurt him even though he initially denied it.

I don't see any reason why this affair will undo him when the Flowers story did nothing to his campaign.

[RPW@Cy]

Simple, Clinton doesn't have to do this part personally, but combined with Liberal Pundits hitting back that "Clinton's private life is his own affair," can help wonders as well. It will also discredit most of his detractors in Congress as hypocrites.

Are you serious? Do you really think the American people will give Clinton another turn if he lashes out at McCain and won't see it as the desperate piece of panic stricken blame shifting it would be?

Oh, and for the record, McCain -

Admitted his affair and has never sought to keep it secret;
Apologised to his ex-wife for the way he treated her and has since rebuilt a friendly relationship with her;
Married the woman he was having a relationship with;
Was almost certainly suffering from a massive dose of PTSD at the time.

None of this is true in the case of Clinton. Portraying the two as in any way equivalent is simply squalid.

Oh - and as for Flowers, Clinton survived that episode because it was both some months before the election and because Hilary very publicly stood by him. There's only four weeks to go and Hilary has left him here.

[Sean Mulligan]

Maybe Larry Flynt can be brought in a few years early. If Clinton goes down, he should try to take a few Republicans down with him.

[thekingsguard]

When's the next update?

[usertron2020]

Are you serious? Do you really think the American people will give Clinton another turn if he lashes out at McCain and won't see it as the desperate piece of panic stricken blame shifting it would be?

Oh, and for the record, McCain -

Admitted his affair and has never sought to keep it secret;
Apologised to his ex-wife for the way he treated her and has since rebuilt a friendly relationship with her;
Married the woman he was having a relationship with;
Was almost certainly suffering from a massive dose of PTSD at the time.

None of this is true in the case of Clinton. Portraying the two as in any way equivalent is simply squalid.

Oh - and as for Flowers, Clinton survived that episode because it was both some months before the election and because Hilary very publicly stood by him.* There's only four weeks to go and Hilary has left him here.

*-There's another issue about Gennifer Flowers that's often forgotten. She was even less reliable than Kathleen Wiley. IIRC, she claimed that Bill and she met every Tuesday and Thursday afternoon in the late 1970s in one particular hotel in Little Rock. Except the hotel in question didn't begin ground-breaking until 1984!:p And the sleeping together routine doesn't match the slam-bam-thank you ma'am sex pattern of Bill's.

[usertron2020]

Maybe Larry Flynt can be brought in a few years early. If Clinton goes down, he should try to take a few Republicans down with him.

What's the point? And Flynt won't be "brought in". Like IOTL, he will do this on his own. Happily, joyously.:)

[BlairWitch749]

*-There's another issue about Gennifer Flowers that's often forgotten. She was even less reliable than Kathleen Wiley. IIRC, she claimed that Bill and she met every Tuesday and Thursday afternoon in the late 1970s in one particular hotel in Little Rock. Except the hotel in question didn't begin ground-breaking until 1984!:p And the sleeping together routine doesn't match the slam-bam-thank you ma'am sex pattern of Bill's.


Keep the time period in mind, prior to Monica, sleeping with a powerful person didn't get you a reality show on fox and your own line of handbags on the home shopping network; if anything you were considered a slut

so perhaps Flowers imbellished her situation with Bill into a semi love affair to make herself look better; it does keep with the times; and mirrors some of Broderick's fears in coming forward

when it comes to Bill, I use the same standard as tiger woods, if the woman says she saw his putter, well... yea its more likely true than it isn't

[RogueBeaver]

Keep the time period in mind, prior to Monica, sleeping with a powerful person didn't get you a reality show on fox and your own line of handbags on the home shopping network; if anything you were considered a slut

so perhaps Flowers imbellished her situation with Bill into a semi love affair to make herself look better; it does keep with the times; and mirrors some of Broderick's fears in coming forward

when it comes to Bill, I use the same standard as tiger woods, if the woman says she saw his putter, well... yea its more likely true than it isn't

In Game Change Hillary's own staff confirmed that one of the long-term affair rumors was true, but kept it on the QT. Even in the book we don't know who it was.

[BlairWitch749]

In Game Change Hillary's own staff confirmed that one of the long-term affair rumors was true, but kept it on the QT. Even in the book we don't know who it was.

assumedly it was flowers; however just because the relationship went on for a long period of time doesn't mean it particularly had any depth to it... bill and monica's encounters spanned more than 18 months; but its hard to say he treated her as more than a piece of office furniture

[BlairWitch749]

True Love (Chapter 26) - Be thankful for what you have; you'll end up having more. If you concentrate on what you don't have, you will never, ever have enough - Oprah Winfrey

October 16th 1996 Oprah Winfrey's Television Studio Chicago Illinois (Victor Lewinsky is 5 weeks old)

The media storm had not died down... even the OJ Simpson trial which was about to begin next week in Santa Monica California had been relegated to the inner bowels of the American consciousness. The news that Monica Lewinsky would be interviewed by Oprah Winfrey in conjunction with PEOPLE magazine releasing the first photographs of Victor Lewinsky was electrifying to the media which continued to stoke the story with round the clock coverage.

Monica prepared to go on stage and sit in the chair across from Oprah. She looked good considering she was 5 weeks removed from birth. She had been lucky in a way; her stomach was very upset during the first two trimesters, and her constant stress and nerves had made it very difficult to eat. During the entire pregnancy, to her doctor's surprise she had only gained 8 pounds; all of which she had lost and then somewhat more as she had begun a breastfeeding regiment with Victor which was draining her of more than 500 calories a day. Oprah Winfrey's stylist, wardrobe and other assistants had taken excellent care of Monica to bring out the beauty of her new motherly figure

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MGDeA2my0i8/TBrkjTmaZtI/AAAAAAAAG00/GFGzrnmvKPI/s1600/MonicaLewinsky.jpg
Oprah's style people worked hard on Monica's appearance and the reviews where excellent

The photo's had hit the news stand that morning; Victor, like most children his age (especially those born by c-section) was a very cute baby. The photographer who had experience working with celebrity babies had done an excellent job posing him and even got him to smile in several of the pictures by jingling his keys and squeezing a squeaking cow toy close to Victor's eyes

Matt Drudge had secured a leak at PEOPLE and posted the pictures on his website just after midnight and they had gone radioactive through the internet on top of copies of the magazine flying off the shelves. There was no accompanying article or interview with Monica in the magazine, that was the deal, People got the pictures of her with the baby, Oprah got to talk to her.
http://photos.demandstudios.com/227/196/fotolia_2276747_XS.jpg
Victor Lewinsky's media debut

OW: I'd like to welcome our guest Monica Lewinsky to the show (polite clapping follows; with Monica shaking Oprah's hand and taking a seat)
OW: Thank you for being with us Monica, your life certainly has to have been an adventure this year... first let me ask you; how are you feeling from the pregnancy; you look great
ML: Well, I was very tired after it, Victor didn't want to come out, but I'm starting to feel better now, feeling like I have my legs back under me; my mom has been a big help with the baby so I can rest and recover my strength
OW: Lets show our audience the photo's of your son that debuted today in PEOPLE magainze (slide show goes on the screen of Victor's shots with the audience having several long aww responses to his various poses). How did you feel doing the photography session, showing him to the world for the first time?
ML: Good and bad I guess, I was proud you know, like any mom would be having pictures taken of her baby; but at the same time it was so strange and I felt awkward the pictures where not for my family or friends but for everyone, and I was getting paid for them
OW: Now that's something I want to ask you about also, PEOPLE paid you a million dollars for those pictures, what are you going to do with that money
ML: Well 250 thousand is going into a college fund for Victor; that was one of the main reasons I accepted the shoot, I want him to have the chance to go to a good college
OW: And the rest?
ML: I am going to donat the rest of it to St. Jude's Children's hospital. My mother has been active for that charity since I was born, she has helped me so much, and they do such great work with kids... you know I'm so blessed to have a healthy baby; its just the right thing to do (long pause for audience applause)
OW: Now I would like to talk about your relationship with the President... when was the last time you spoke to him
ML: The last time was on the phone just before Victor was born...what you heard on that tape was the last time we spoke... where he yelled at me (tears forming at Monica's eyes)
OW: So neither he or any of his representatives have reached out to you regarding custody or visitation of Victor?
ML: No not yet... my lawyer did at my request... but we were told they are not prepared yet to make arrangements about it
OW: Does that bother you?
ML: It's just hard you know, I mean my own situation is crazy, but I want Victor to have a connection with his father, he deserves to have two parents who love him in his life (more tears)
OW: But what about you Monica, do you want to see the President again;
ML: Whatever I had with him is most decidedly over... I'm not proud of what I did, I had a lot of silly thoughts in my mind, you know... I... I thought I was in love with him
OW: And you aren't any more?
ML: Giving birth to Victor gave me a better appreciation I think, of what true love is... it made my situation with the President seem small
OW: (following a commercial break) Tell me how your relationship with the President began
ML: (Monica proceeded to tell Oprah how she got a job as an intern to Leon Panetta and became close with Bill during the government shut down, and how their flirting escalated into sex)
OW: So who initiated the contact... I mean who took it to the next level
ML: He did, but I wasn't innocent, I recipricated... like I said, I was infatuated with him
OW: Did his marriage ever come into your mind when this was going on, did he say anything about it?
ML: ... for me, there was always a wave of guilt and shame after every time I saw him like that, I knew it was wrong to be doing that with a married man
OW: Did he ever say anything about his marriage to you or wanting to be with you as opposed to Mrs. Clinton
ML: No... he just... (tears) always looked sad after our encounters, I tried asking him 100 times to tell me, but he refused to say what he was thinking... so I don't really know what he was feeling
OW: Do you feel bad for Mrs. Clinton and their daughter for what you did
ML: Yes, look, I know what I did was wrong... I didn't want to hurt anyone or break up his family or ruin their lives, it just happened
OW: Do you think the President took advantage of you in the situation, on any level
ML: I don't know... maybe, my mind was all over the place, he kept control of how things where a lot and didn't really let me connect with him in the way I was looking for
OW: When you where transferred to the Pentagon, away from the white house, away from the president what went through your mind
ML: A thousand different thoughts at once... I hadn't told anyone except my mother and Linda Tripp; I didn't think he knew, but at that point I was so paranoid and scared; I mean he is the President, he has unlimited resources, part of me thought there was some way he could know and that he wanted to get rid of me. I also was on and off convinced that he was done with me or didn't want to continue the relationship and that transferring me was easier than telling me that face to face. I never got an explanation; it left me feeling very alone and scared when I was just finishing my first trimester with Victor

we will be right back with Monica Lewinsky...

[historybuff]

Good to see you aren't giving up on this. I figured Oprah would wanna interview her sooner or later.

[NoOneFamous]

keep it up, I hope Oprah and Monica really sink Tripp

[lloyd007]

keep it up, I hope Oprah and Monica really sink Tripp

Those who think she's a muckracker will remain thus... Those who think she's a whistleblower won't be convinced otherwise in large part I think...

Tripp has already set the narrative, one she knew was going to divide public opinion and so she decided not at all to play the total paragon but go a different route. In effect she did a good job inoculating her image to those who would support her and not even trying to persuade those who might criticize her.

I see this as another whack to Clinton's sack though... :p

[thekingsguard]

President Gramm time yet?

[Orville_third]

Would Clinton impeachment lead to the derailing of the DLC and "Third Way" politics? Would Gramm react differently upon finding out about Hussein Kamil's defection and destruction of Iraqi WMD?

[pnyckqx]

Would Clinton impeachment lead to the derailing of the DLC and "Third Way" politics? Would Gramm react differently upon finding out about Hussein Kamil's defection and destruction of Iraqi WMD?The only way that there is going to be a Clinton impeachment ITTL is if Clinton manages to win the 96 election, and that is up to BlairWitch749, although i'd have to concede at this time it appears that Clinton will lose to Gramm.

OTL, Clinton actually was impeached, although, like Andrew Johnson, he was not convicted and removed. i have my doubts that 'Third Way' politics would be hurt at all. It was simply another name for the moderate wing of the Party. At this time the more Liberal wing really does not have anyone to stand up and fill the vacuum.

Clinton himself was not ideologically based in his decisions, He really didn't have an ideology. For sure, he played politics the same as any other President, but his real motivation was power for power's own sake.

He did that better than most. Some of it good, some of it not so good IMO.

[BlairWitch749]

True Love Part II (Chapter 27) I'm an incredibly lucky girl. For someone who has made some very foolish mistakes and had some tough lessons to learn very quickly, I am still incredibly lucky - Monica Lewinsky

October 16th 1996 Oprah Winfrey's Television Studio Chicago Illinois (Victor Lewinsky is 5 weeks old)


OW: And we are back, still joined by our special guest, the mother of President Clinton's child, Monica Lewinsky... Monica tell me about Linda Tripp how did you two meet, how surprising was her betrayal given her reputation, have you spoken since the story broke, will you speak again?
ML: Linda befriended me when I first starting working at the white house... she took me under her wing and gave me a lot of advice about how to work in a presidential administration
OW: And you trusted her enough to tell her about the affair, about your pregnancy, especially with her being known as an office gossip?
ML: In retrospect I certainly should never have told her; but you know... I was scared, the affair and later the pregnancy where overwhelming, and it was also something that at many points I was deeply ashamed of... I couldn't tell my mother... Linda Tripp was my sounding board to rationalize what was going on for a long time. And I didn't know she was at the center of the gossip web for the administration... I was just an intern; I didn't really have any friends at work so it's not like someone warned me about her
OW: How much did it make the story worse that it was your friend who broke the story and outed you and Victor
ML: It tore me apart (tears) I don't care what she says about her releasing those tapes being about the President, they hurt me... and they hurt my son; Linda Tripp is a cruel, heartless person
OW: So the ordeal would have been less difficult if NEWSWEEK had broken the story as opposed to your friend?
ML: I don't think there is any way that being outed as the President's mistress would have went easily; but I could have certainly done without the betrayal of someone I considered a close friend. And I want to say something about everyone saying NEWSWEEK knew about it. President Clinton didn't tell anyone... and for obvious reasons, and the only other person besides me and the President who knew about the affair was Linda Tripp; so either Linda Tripp or someone she had spoken to had given the information to them; the only proof was Linda Tripp recording me, without my permission or knowledge on the telephone until I became pregnant with Victor
OW: Now I want to go farther into that, others besides Linda Tripp and Matt Drudge have said there where rumors of you having an inappropriate relationship with the President for many months prior to the story going public, is it possible that NEWSWEEK picked up on these rumors
ML: If there was any substance to the rumors then they had to have come from Linda Tripp. President Clinton was flirty with a number of women in the office, I mean before he and I ever started seeing each other that way, I could have sworn he had something going on with a number of women... now this wasn't true of course it's just the way he spoke and looked at people kinda conveyed that
OW: Now when you found out you where pregnant, tell me what went through your mind
ML: Oh I was terrified, I was 22 years old, pregnant with the baby of a married man, the president no less living in a tiny studio apartment with almost no experience at all with children. It was the biggest shock of my life
OW: Did you ever consider abortion
ML: I'd be lying if I said the thought never crossed my mind, but when I saw Victor... heard his heartbeat through the ultra sound machine... I just became so attached it never became a serious thought or option again. I just kind of matured to accept the situation after that I guess... I told my mother, and I began getting my life in order so I could do everything possible to give Victor all the care and love in the world

I'd like to thank Monica Lewinsky for appearing and allowing the world to meet her and her son, and for sharing her story with us. This has been a special edition of the Oprah Winfrey show, now please stay tuned for your late local news, good night everyone

(Monica and Oprah stood up to shake hands, the camera panned around the crowd where many of the female audience members where wiping away tears)

to be continued...

thoughts?

[NoOneFamous]

She just won over the Right to Lifers, and they are starting to portray Tripp as a backstabbing glory hunting bitch

[BlairWitch749]

She just won over the Right to Lifers, and they are starting to portray Tripp as a backstabbing glory hunting bitch

There was no way Linda Tripp wasn't going to take considerable FLAK from Monica Lewinsky for going public

I'm also not of the opinion that a media spat between Monica and Linda would necessary affect the political traction thus far

[usertron2020]

There was no way Linda Tripp wasn't going to take considerable FLAK from Monica Lewinsky for going public

I'm also not of the opinion that a media spat between Monica and Linda would necessary affect the political traction thus far

I agree. Besides, the hatred of the GOP base, which includes most (BUT NOT ALL) of the most devout Right-to-Lifers, will not be ameliorated by the idea of what Tripp did. She is the heroine who brought down Bill Clinton. I don't see any sympathy from the Republicans for Monica. She chose to abase herself by laying herself down with the Beast, and must now take the consequences, on the grounds that she was a consenting adult.

Fox News bent over backwards to deify Tripp, but even hardcore Clinton-haters were holding their nose when the subject of Linda Tripp came up. Only "Professional Republicans" like Sean Hannity still, to this day, put Tripp on a pedestal.

[BlairWitch749]

Irreconcilable Differences (Chapter 28) All of us have to recognize that we owe our children more than we have been giving them - Hillary Clinton

October 23rd 1996 Washington DC (Victor Lewinsky is 6 weeks old)

The media storm didn't end. It had it's ebbs and flows, but the tide of coverage remained remarkably high. On the 23rd of October, two weeks from election day, President Clinton had only slightly started to recover ground he had lost to Senator Gramm following his admission of the Lewinsky affair.

He embarked on a sustained apology tour, visiting suburb after suburb, trying to reingratiate himself to married suburban women who he desperately needed to come back to him in order to have any chance of even being competitive against Gramm.

These tours where modestly successful, Clinton touted his economic record and in town hall's when asked about the baby he claimed that he was trying to do the right thing by acknowledging the child.

Despite this, the media cycle was ruthless as FOX NEWS and other conservative media forums (particularly talk radio) ruthlessly assassinated Clinton's character and continued discussion of the Lewinsky scandal drew high ratings which brought most of the remaining elements of the media along for the ride. One side story tracked mostly by Dianne Sawyer at ABC was on Hillary Clinton. She hadn't appeared at Bill's side at any press conference or campaign event since the scandal broke nor had she been seen publicly anywhere; a where is Hillary and how does Hillary feel sidebar remained constant but was still mostly overshadowed by the affair itself

On the 22nd two October surprises came to pass. On recommendation from Paul Begala and James Carville, President Clinton's legal team had gotten in touch with Gloria Allred and come to agreement. Mike McCurry, the White House Press Secretary threw a bombshell at the media that day announcing that President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky's lawyers had worked out a joint custody arrangement and that for now, Victor Lewinsky would be a weekend visitor at the White House. This threw the media into a frenzy and it finally seemed to the Clinton team that they where getting out in front of the crises for the first time. Snap polling done by Clinton's campaign internally showed an almost immediate 6-7 point bounce; most of this came from the remaining undecideds who appeared to be democrats thinking about staying home... Gramm's numbers where still uncomfortably high and over 50% BUT it was still progress; or so the team thought
http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2004/09/14/mccurry.jpg
McCurry announces joint custody of Victor Lewinsky

Matt Drudge stuck it again to the Whitehouse. Linda Tripp, Kathleen Willy, and Monica Lewinsky had been subpeonaed to provide testimony for the Paula Jones Sexual harassment case. Matt Drudge found a source inside the court system who was happy to provide him with copies of their sworn; using Linda Tripp and Kathleen Willy themselves was off the table but Drudge got everything he needed to go live with it at 4pm that day. Little of the information was new, but Drudge allowed speculation into his article that Clinton would certainly lose the case; and bolded certain sexual exploits between Clinton and Lewinsky that so far had not been discussed publicly including Clinton using a cigar tube a phalax on Monica Lewinsky on the resolute desk.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/07NydbGf1EdzX/340x.jpg
Matt Drudge's banner picture for the day

The following day, Bill Clinton's campaign was derailed harder than anything that had touched it the last six weeks. Furious and embarrassed over the latest Drudge release AND that Bill had gained partial custody of Victor Lewinsky; Hillary Clinton pulled the rug out from under him. They had not spoken since the scandal broke, despite repeated calls from the staff and Bill himself; the rage just wouldn't subside this time.

On October 23rd snoopers for ABC confirmed to Diane Sawyer that Hillary Clinton had filed for divorce citing irreconcilable differences and adultry... what was more stunning to Ms Sawyer, when her people reached out to Hillary's press secretary, not only was it confirmed, but they offered for Hillary to take an interview with her on 20/20...

to be continued

thoughts?

[Gridley]

Stick a fork in Clinton, he's done. A divorce being filed two weeks before election day? He might as well concede right now.

Will Hilary still go into politics herself? I can easily see her playing the "wronged woman" card for the sympathy vote.

[historybuff]

I figured that would happen eventually.

[lothaw]

Hillary the politician surely would be more savy than to file for divorce right before the election wouldn't she?

I can't imagine her WANTing Graham to win, even at the expense of her soon to be ex husband. Surely she'd wait a month either way.

[BlairWitch749]

Hillary the politician surely would be more savy than to file for divorce right before the election wouldn't she?

I can't imagine her WANTing Graham to win, even at the expense of her soon to be ex husband. Surely she'd wait a month either way.

Hillary will not be an overall loser in the scope of this tl; that is as far as I can comment on her now

[Chengar Qordath]

Hillary the politician surely would be more savy than to file for divorce right before the election wouldn't she?

I can't imagine her WANTing Graham to win, even at the expense of her soon to be ex husband. Surely she'd wait a month either way.

Even if it isn't the best move for Hillary the politician, I'm sure that finishing off any hope Clinton might have of recovering from the scandal before election day would be immensely satisfying to Hillary the woman. She's been quite nastily humiliated so far throughout the TL, so I could certainly see her opting to punish Bill, and what better way to do that than to kill his political career?

Also, as Gridley mentioned, it could easily end up helping her political career down the line.

[RogueBeaver]

A Time for Choosing: Chapter 29

(Guest chapter by RB)

The divorce bombshell was, in the words of Clinton strategist James Carville, as if “a goddamn IED had detonated over our entire campaign.” Immediately Clinton’s numbers tanked again, with Gramm soaring to 54% versus Clinton’s 40% and 5% undecided nationally. Translated into electoral votes and Congressional seats, it would be a Republican tsunami combining 1994’s congressional landslide and 1988’s presidential one. While not panicking, Democrats were now clearly worried in how to turn the numbers around again in the final two weeks. Begala and Carville both recommended releasing a statement saying that Clinton would cooperate in his divorce with Hillary, acknowledging his conduct and “irreconcilable differences” between the First Couple. The President reluctantly accepted, knowing that nothing else would satisfy a ravished media. On October 25 Clinton resumed the campaign trail, talking up the economy and reminding voters of the sluggish growth and recessions during the late Reagan and Bush years. As in 1992, the President told Carville “I always had to get As, nothing less would or will do”, but no one was willing to tell Clinton what was increasingly obvious.


http://www.parcbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/clinton_carville.jpg

One little-noticed aspect of this entire scandal was its benefits for Clinton’s chief adversary and de facto “leader of the opposition”: House Speaker Newt Gingrich. Clinton had planned to run against “Newt Gramm”, against the “Medicare-cutting 103rd” as Truman had run against the “Do-Nothing 80th” nearly half a century earlier. Gingrich himself was delighted at how events had played out and with commanding Republican majorities in both houses and hopefully, a new Republican President to sign his ambitious agenda into law. On the campaign trail the Speaker made no public comment except to condemn “Democratic anti-family immorality” as he had done much more dramatically in 1994. For his part, Majority Leader Bob Dole stayed silent: he was retiring from leadership come January and the Senate in 1998.

http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/2009/0527/gingrich-on-sotomayor-latina-woman-racist-should-also-withdraw/article_photo1.jpg/5688160-1-eng-US/article_photo1.jpg_full_600.jpg

“Over the past 12 years, John Kerry has fought for Massachusetts families in the U.S. Senate. Bill Weld has fought for corporations and special interests. The stakes are too high for you to stay home."
- Kerry for Senate ad, WGBH-TV, Oct. 31- Nov. 4

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/thisweekineducation/upload/2007/07/remember_john_kerry/John%20Kerry%20Damascus.jpg



In Florida, the President continued on the attack, though it seemed that every 48 to 72 hours he had to deal with another “Drudge eruption” detailing his prospective divorce. Some media outlets, usually NBC, were discussing the effect it was all having on Chelsea, but held back from excessive detail due to her status as a minor. Clinton’s emphasis on the economy enabled him to climb out of the crevice. A rolling Gallup poll released on October 31 had the President behind by 8, 52-44. Carville and Begala heaved a sigh of relief: now Clinton could fight on much better terms, but time was not on their side. Gramm, like Clinton, was mostly ignoring the tawdriness in favour of the economy and the House GOP agenda. He only indirectly referred to the scandal, as in Waukesha on Nov. 2: “America needs a President who is focused like a laser beam on the job, especially in economic management and the foreign hotspots which require American leadership to resolve. “ For the final week of the campaign both candidates visited the swing states of the rust and farm belts along with their native South.

Nov. 5
8:07 PM EST
ABC News HQ
New York

DIANE SAWYER: “I’m Diane Sawyer and we are here live with election night coverage at ABC News. Exit polls show moderate turnout all across the country...”

9:16 PM EST
“ABC is now projecting New York for President Clinton, along with the rest of the Northeast. Republicans are now projected leading all across the South, save for Arkansas and Georgia.”

10:43 PM
“We can now project a Democratic Illinois victory, though Carl Levin has won re-election with a vastly reduced margin over his 1990 standing. Meanwhile in Louisiana the race between Mary Landrieu and Woody Jenkins is still too close to call.”

10:58 PM
“In the biggest surprise of the night for the Senate races, ABC can now project that in Massachusetts, John Kerry has been defeated by Republican Governor Bill Weld 53-45, perhaps this year’s marquee race...”

11:21 PM
“Now projecting California in the Democratic column...”

11:25 PM

“Breaking news: based on advanced counting in Wisconsin, Ohio and Pennsylvania, we can now project a Republican presidential victory tonight with major gains in both the House and Senate. Within the next 20 minutes we should hear from both President Clinton and President-elect Gramm. Repeat, Phil Gramm has been elected the 43rd President of the United States...”


http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=143910&d=1308066199

http://uselectionatlas.org/TOOLS/genusmap.php?year=1996&ev_c=0&pv_p=0&ev_p=1&AL=2;9;5&AK=2;3;5&AZ=2;8;4&AR=1;6;5&CA=1;54;5&CO=2;8;4&CT=1;8;5&DE=1;3;5&DC=1;3;8&FL=2;25;4&GA=2;13;4&HI=1;4;5&ID=2;4;5&IL=1;22;5&IN=2;12;4&IA=2;7;5&KS=2;6;5&KY=2;8;4&LA=2;9;5&MD=1;10;5&MA=1;12;6&MI=1;18;5&MN=1;10;5&MS=2;7;4&MO=2;11;4&MT=2;3;4&NV=2;4;4&NH=2;4;4&NJ=1;15;5&NM=2;5;4&NY=1;33;5&NC=2;14;4&ND=2;3;4&OH=2;21;4&OK=2;8;4&OR=1;7;4&PA=2;23;4&RI=1;4;5&SC=2;8;4&SD=2;3;4&TN=2;11;4&TX=2;32;4&UT=2;5;5&VT=1;3;5&VA=2;13;4&WA=2;11;4&WV=2;5;5&WI=2;11;4&WY=2;3;4&ME=1;2;5&ME1=1;1;5&ME2=1;1;5&NE=2;2;5&NE1=2;1;4&NE2=2;1;5&NE3=2;1;5



http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=143911&d=1308066312



http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=138037&d=1303413366



Color code
Green: No election
Turquoise: GOP pickup
Indigo: GOP hold
Burgundy: Democratic hold



http://uselectionatlas.org/TOOLS/genusmap.php?year=1996&ev_c=0&pv_p=1&ev_p=0&type=calc&AL=3;9;5&AK=2;3;8&AZ=3;8;5&AR=2;6;3&CA=3;54;5&CO=2;8;3&CT=3;8;5&DE=1;3;8&DC=3;3;5&FL=3;25;5&GA=2;13;3&HI=3;4;5&ID=2;4;8&IL=3;22;5&IN=3;12;5&IA=2;7;3&KS=2;6;8&KY=2;8;8&LA=2;9;3&MD=3;10;5&MA=2;12;3&MI=1;18;8&MN=1;10;8&MS=2;7;8&MO=3;11;5&MT=2;3;3&NV=3;4;5&NH=2;4;8&NJ=1;15;8&NM=2;5;8&NY=3;33;5&NC=2;14;8&ND=3;3;5&OH=3;21;5&OK=2;8;8&OR=2;7;8&PA=3;23;5&RI=1;4;8&SC=2;8;8&SD=2;3;8&TN=2;11;8&TX=2;32;8&UT=2;5;8&VT=3;3;5&VA=2;13;8&WA=3;11;5&WV=1;5;8&WI=3;11;4&WY=3;3;4&ME=2;2;8&ME1=2;1;8&ME2=2;1;8&NE=2;2;3&NE1=2;1;3&NE2=2;1;3&NE3=2;1;3

[historybuff]

Great stuff, but how did you get to write a guest chapter RogueBeaver?

[mrmandias]

The divorce bombshell was, in the words of Clinton strategist James Carville, as if “a goddamn IED had detonated over our entire campaign.”

I take it (1) this is a quote from a long time after and (2) in ATL, something like the Iraq war still occurs? Because IED wasn't something anyone said or thought about until the Iraq war in the Oughts.

[mrmandias]

As a space enthusiast, I wonder if this will give Gingrich the ability to implement his Mars Prize plan?

Though I'm not sure that green-eye shade Gramm will be onboard.

[Gridley]

I'm actually surprised Clinton did that well. I guess nothing sticks to Slick Willy even in ATLs.

Nice election data, RogueBeaver.

[wargamer6]

Good stuff RB. One minor thing; Carl Levin is Michigan's senator.

[Snowstalker]

Good map, but I think Clinton would win West Virginia, that Gramm would do a little worse in the PV, and to switch Oregon and Washington. Given that it's a personal scandal, I'd also expect Congress to be at least a little better for the Democrats. Perot would also gain a lot of votes from Democrats.

[RogueBeaver]

Good map, but I think Clinton would win West Virginia, that Gramm would do a little worse in the PV, and to switch Oregon and Washington. Given that it's a personal scandal, I'd also expect Congress to be at least a little better for the Democrats. Perot would also gain a lot of votes from Democrats.

The maps, and especially the Congressional results, are just me copying BW's instructions verbatim.


How did I get to write this chapter: I was asked. Simple as that.

[historybuff]

@RogueBeaver: Got it, just curious is all. Wonder who Graham's gonna pick for his cabinet.

[BlairWitch749]

Good map, but I think Clinton would win West Virginia, that Gramm would do a little worse in the PV, and to switch Oregon and Washington. Given that it's a personal scandal, I'd also expect Congress to be at least a little better for the Democrats. Perot would also gain a lot of votes from Democrats.

My extrapolation into the election was based on a combination of Gramm being a moderately more formidable candidate than Dole, coupled with a semi exciting running mate on top of A LOT of dems staying home... that quote from Kerry in the update not to stay home was meant to show an appeal to dems that even if you where mad at Clinton and couldn't vote for him that he was still requesting support

I was going to do a separate update on having the religious right get mobilized in the churches with lots of sermons on the pitfalls of adultry and corruption; but I felt this would be implied and repetitive

The senate (as mentioned earlier in the thread) had several VERY close elections where a poorer performance by Clinton/ better performance by the Republican candidate producing a modest down ticket effect would have switched the result

remember this congress had 55 repub senators in OTL with Clinton winning in a walk

[Snowstalker]

Excellent job on the Wikipedia thingies, BTW.

[lothaw]

Good map, but I think Clinton would win West Virginia, that Gramm would do a little worse in the PV, and to switch Oregon and Washington. Given that it's a personal scandal, I'd also expect Congress to be at least a little better for the Democrats. Perot would also gain a lot of votes from Democrats.

Perot got almost 2 million more votes than OTL. Still no where as good as his 92 performance, but maybe good enough to keep the Reform party a going concern TTL.

Fact of the matter is the Congress often does swing in popular relation to the President. Look at the massive Dem pickup OTL in 2006, or 94's Republican Revolution.



Oh and a random pet peeve of mine... just why does everyone on this site seem to use reverse red/blue colors for the electoral college maps. Is it just because that electoral college calculator website does?

[RogueBeaver]

Perot got almost 2 million more votes than OTL. Still no where as good as his 92 performance, but maybe good enough to keep the Reform party a going concern TTL.

Fact of the matter is the Congress often does swing in popular relation to the President. Look at the massive Dem pickup OTL in 2006, or 94's Republican Revolution.

Clinton himself put it this way: "The nationalization of midterm elections was Newt Gingrich's major contribution to modern electioneering."

Colors: Yes, that's the reason. In 1996 there were no set colors anyways, that only started in 2000.