Hesperia

[DuQuense]

"HESPERIA" Part one-Beginnings


In fall 50 B.C. a fleet of 25 ships sailed thru the Pillars of Hercules on a Trading mission to Cornwall {tin}. Unfortunally [for them] they ran into a hurricane that blew them far to the south. What great feats of seamanship allowed them to survive And stay together, are lost in the mists of history, but we know that 12 of the ships ended up wrecked on one of the Cape Verde Islands. They discovered the Island covered with tropical Fruits with a small native Population. Five of the other Ships ended up wrecked on the Canary Islands, where they were discovered a century later.

It took a over seven years, While they lived and Married with the locals. But, they managed to repair two of the ships for the return to Roman territory. Behind them they left a small Roman colony. With them they took a cargo [they were merchants after all] of wine made from the tropical fruit
[a big Hit when they got to Rome].

This led to a trade route where the Romans sailed down the coast, and turned west sailing out to the Remus Islands. Over the next century small Supply camps were established along the coast, Wherever water supplies were found. By 50 AD a string of Supply camps stretched from The Greater Pillars of Hercules, south to the New Tiber River {OTL Senegal}. Where the Merchants resupplied before heading for the Islands.

Along the Coast these Camps began to be visited by the Berber & Semitic Tribesmen in the north, and Malinke Tribesmen in the south, The camps Started trading with the locals, and Grew. Not all Visits were always Friendly, So soldiers joined the Camps. The Soldiers at the camps laid them out in the Army fashion, Streets, Roads & Walls were built. There also was a small number of farmers in with the settlers, so the camps became surrounded by Fields.

As most of the Settlers in these camps were male the trade involved more than just goods. This lead to the population of the camps and surrounding areas began to be a mixed Blood. By 200 -300 AD some of the camps had grown into small towns. Many of these raised their own local forces, modeled on the old Republic style, Citizen Legions. The difference being that at the heart of each local Legion was a small group of Professional Soldiers. Trained in the Imperial Legions back in Rome, and sent here to retire.

In the 300's Hesperia became officially Christian, along with the rest of the Empire. Of course due to the distance from the City of Rome, the Priests and officials sent were not the first tier, or even the, close second tier of talent. If You were being generous , You might, call them third tier. Also lots of Unusual Preachers and Missionaries, had come here when they were chased out , by more Orthodox believers. This Meant that while the Towns had a Official Orthodox veneer , in reality, all kinds of other religions from Zoamianism, to the old Roma-Greek, to Mithism, to Nestoian, Coptic & Native, flourished, just out of official sight.
:)

[Flocculencio]

To be continued I hope? :)

[DuQuense]

"HESPERIA" Part two- [ Roma De Sud]


In 50 B.C. Due to a major storm a small colony of Roman Merchants was established in the Remus Islands [OTL Cape Verde]. Doing a brisk trade in Citrus Wine, a trade Route of supply camps was established along the coast. Of course, these camps followed the "Law of Unintended Conquenses"
Within a couple centuries, these camps had grown into small towns, and were generating more in the way of Trade & Revenue, than the Island Colony they were built to surrport.

At the Southern end of the Trade route, where the ships turned westward to the Islands, was the largest camp of all. Sitting at the Mouth of the Tiberian River [OTL Senegal], was the Camp "Rome de Sud". Situated on the fertile delta with a good source of Water, the camp seemed to double and Triple in size, overnite. By the early ~100's the camp, had become a small town, and by third century when the other camp were growing into towns, Roma de Sud was already a small City. As such there was never a question on where the Capital of the Province of Hesperia would be.

The first group of Soldiers sent to help protect the Camps, fortunally included some Greek Engineers & Architects. As such most of the first Temples, & other Public Buildings, were in the Open Greek Style. This style was then reproduced in the other camps, along the coast. Thro they didn't know it at the time, this was a great style for the climate they would encounter as they later expanded southward. Even the adoption of Xianity in the 300's didn't change this, as the Xians simply reused the same old temples. Even today this is the prevalent style of Public building, in Hesperia, and her former Colonies.

By ~350 A.D. Roma de Sud and Hesperia were well established, With it's own Soldiers, Harbourages, Stone walls, Fields, and of course roads. While the Roads into the interior were short, [20 miles south, 30 miles up river] the north-south roads were much longer reaching almost 300 good Roman Miles north from Roma de Sud, and tieing the coast together into a Economic unit that rivaled the Axum empire in the East. Shipping quantities of Ivory, Exotic Timber, Dried Fruit, and of course the Citrus wine that started it all.

[DuQuense]

I Got the Name Hesperia [ at the Mouth of the Sengal river 100ad] from a sugestion here, So can anyone come up with a name for the Hesperian colony at the mouth on the Niger river in 950 ad or the one on the congo in ~1300ad. ?Should i just use OTL names. :confused:

Also any sugestions on what will happen when they meet the Muslim-Berber Kingdoms of the western Sudan [OTL Niger, Chad & Mali] ciria 800~900 ad.

?What whould they do after 4~500 years of isolation? ?How whould the Muslims react to a large Christian precense to the south and west? :confused:

[DominusNovus]

Looks good, though typing Xians makes you look lazy, for X's sake. :D
As for other names, just find something noteworthy about the location, and pick a latin name for it. I think they might call Hesperia, Hesperia Nova, instead, as Hesperia is actually an old word for Italy (the land to the west).
http://www.nd.edu/~archives/latgramm.htm has a pretty good translator, though there's plenty floating around. If the location is pretty far to the south, you call it Antichthon or Antipode (a "counter" continent supposedly to the south).

[DuQuense]

"HESPERIA" Part three- Collapse

In 402 An invasion by Alaric & his Visigoths forced the recall of the "Sixth Vistrix" legion from Britain & the "22nd de Sud" from Hesperia. Due to the distance the 22nd didn't arrive in till a year later just in time to help defeat a second attack by the barbarian chieftain, Radagaisus. Neither of these Legions would ever return Home. While this would cause problems in Britain as waves of Goths, Jutes, & Saxons swept across Gaul into Britain & Iberia, two thing would help protect Hesperia.

One was distance, between the southern towns of [Morocco] and the northern towns of Hesperia lay 2 weeks of sail, with only a couple of small watering stops. The south road ended at the bottom of the Atlas Mountains, with the North road in Hesperia 800 desert miles away. With the Introduction of the Camel to north Africa in the early 4th century this would someday be bridged, but that lay several centuries in the future.

The second thing was the Citizen Legions. While Hesperia never had to face the waves of hostile Barbarians, that Rome encountered in its expansion, Not all the Natives in Hesperia were Friendly. While the 22nd de Sud was the only official legion in Hesperia, almost all the settlers were armed. They also were organized by retired soldiers, and lead and drilled by the professionals from the 22nd. As the settlements started pushing east & south in the late third & early fourth centuries, these Citizen Legions went with them.

In 425 the Visigoths and Vandals crossed the Gilbrater Straights and attacked Mauritania [every west of OTL Libya]. As they attacked the coastal Towns, some refugees fled south to Hesperia. This would be the last Influx of Europeans, for close to 1000 yrs. By 430 the Vandals had captured Carthage. Over the next generation the Vandals would adopt Roman ways, this would include trade. By 450 Hesperia was again trading north, But due to the destrustion of the coastal towns in [Morocco], and the general collapse of Europe, this never reached the pre 425 levels.

[DominusNovus]

Still looking good. Gotta love Roman AH's. Especially quirky ones like this.

[DuQuense]

Thanks, You seen to be the only reader thru.

[DominusNovus]

I'm just the one that replies. :p

[Diamond]

Yeah, I'm reading it too. I just can't really find any major flaws - its entertaining and plausible - to me, anyway. Keep going!

BTW, there must be people reading it; the # of views was pretty high.

[DuQuense]

"HESPERIA" Part four- Isolation


In the mid 4th cent. with the ongoing collapse of the Western Roman Empire, Rome started withdrawing it's troops from the outer Provinces. While this left places like Britain open to the German migration, Hesperia with it's Distance and lack of any mass of threatening natives, simply started to stagnate.

In 430 Hesperia received a wave of settlers fleeing the Vandal invasion of North Africa. After that it was close to 20 years before trade restarted, and never at the same level. This had terrible effects on the Remus [Cape Verde] & Romus [Canary] Islands, that had started it all. With the collapse of trade, the island populations dropped, to self suficentcy levels. There they would stagnate till discovered by the Portugalese in the 15th century.

In Hesperia the lose of contact was lots less terrible. While the Merchants were severly affected, most of the Population had long since lost intrest in European contact. While the News and Gossip from Rome was interesting, that was all it was, Gossip. Most of the Towns had their own local Senates to control the town. In Roma de Sud, There was a Imperial Governor, but Roma de Sud also had it's Senate. Many of the local towns had for years sent repersentatives to the Roma Senate, to keep up with what the Capital was doing. Thust Heperia had been govererning it'self for years with only slight input from the Imperial Court, back in Rome. Also while the settlers had adopted a few native words, mostly place names, the lanauge spoken by Hesperia was Latin. In Europe the lanuage had changed due to adapting to the native speakers, and the german migration. Even in Rome they spoke Proto-Italian, But in the farest outpost they still spoke Latin. And while the spoken lanuage would drift Slightly over the coming milieum, the written part would stay allmost pure.

In 430 A.D. when contact was lost, Hesperia consited of a strip of land some 350 Roman Miles [1728 standard strides, 2.5 ft /stride] by 30~50 miles wide. Reaching 300 m north & 50 m south of Roma de Sud. [cape Timiris--cape Vert (Dakar)]. By 460 exploring parties discoved the Poean River [OTL Gambia} & by 520 the Great Coastal Road, was pushing south from the Poean. Also in 520, Hesperia established a trading Town 250 miles up the Tiberian river.

In 535 A.D. Krokatoa in the Pacific exploded hurling Megatons of Ash and Debris into the Sratosphere, Causing a small "Nuclear Winter" and changeing weather patterns world wide. The British would suffer a famine leaveing them open to the Saxon invadsions, The great Yemen dam would collaspse ending the Axum Empire, & leading to Mohammad and Islam. In Central America the Olmac Nation would disapear, opening the door for the Aztecs & Mayas. In Hesperia, There were Problems too. A local Plague dropped the population by ~20%, and most of the outermost settlements were abandoned.

In Axum a mouse colony moved due to the climate change, the mice were carriers. By 542 the Yellow Death reached Continanople, were the record stop at 250,000 deaths. Not that this was all the Dead, but the record keepers were all killed. The Plague spread across Europe & north Africa. Fortunally for Hesperia, the distance once again rescued them. In 1973 divers off western Sahara diccovered a fleet of ships off the coast dated to 544 A.D. The Historians have concluded that they sank after the Yellow Plague had killed Most of the Passengers.

One Industry Hesperia had never devoloped was Ocean Ship Building, and so contact with Europe again was lost. This time it would be a thousand years before formal contact with Europe was reestablished.

[DominusNovus]

Looking good, looking good.

[DuQuense]

"HESPERIA" Part five- Growth

{i'm going to use OTL names, I'm to lazy to try to keep making up Roman Names}


Hesperia started 50~40 B.C. as a string of supply camps for a trade route down the west coast of Africa. The Initial Population of the camps were Male Romans. This lead to lots of contact with the locals, espesailly with the female Part. This lead to increases in Population of the camps, and by 200 A.D. most of these camps had grown into small towns. The towns Had been layed out by soldiers in the Army fashion [like many of Europe's towns], with streets, walls, & of course Roads. By 430, when contact was first lost, the Great coast road reached 250 miles north of Roma de Sud, and some 50 miles south. There also were short roads leading east into the Interior. As the towns had expanded into the interior, the Romans had more assimulated the natives, rather than conquer. As such while there had always been a trickle of europeans, most of the growth had come from improved food, Roman Sanitation & Cleanness, Roman Medics, and the draining of Swamps.

Following the Great Plague of 538, where Hesperia lost close to 20% of her population, their was a common concensus that it had been the standards of Sanitation and Cleanlyness, that had prevented it from being worse. This lead to a increased emphasis on them, along with a renewed intrest in learning about how disease spread. By 550 the idea of animal carriers, was accepted and in 557, the idea of Mositios, carrying Malaria, was put forward.

These ideas helped the population rebound, so that by 600 most of the settlements abandoned after the Great Plague had been reclaimed. A half dozen towns in the north at the edge of the desert, were left empty. Hesperia contracted , so while Hesperia extented only 240 north of the Tiberian River, the Great Coast Road reached 60 miles farther north. The land returned to nature peopled by outlaws, bandits and other "ne'er do wells" . It would be another 300 years before these towns would be reclaimed and Fortified, as defense in war.


Shortly before the Plague and the need to rebuild, Hesperia had reached the Gambia] River, by 612 Hesperia was back , and starting to explore up it, like they were doing with the Tiberian. They had also repaired to Coast Road, and were prepared to push south again. The next couple of centuries is a story of slow and steady growth, South along the Coast, and Up the Rivers as they came to them. By 800 they reached the headwaters of the Tiberian & Poean, and had a string of towns between them.

From the beginning Hesperia like Britian , had a solid core of Engineers and Architects, helping to build Roads and Buildings, in the Roman style. But unlike Britian, Hesperia didn't lose them all to collaspse & invasions. Therefore while the Roads are not quite like the original Roman built, They are better than any roads being built west of Cathay.

{i'm going to use OTL names, I'm to lazy to try to keep making up Roman Names}

In 852 two major events unfold. One is the reaching of [Cape Palmas], and the turning east of the Great Coast Road. The second is the discovery of the Niger River by a Hesperian party exploring the Guinea Highlands, south of the Tiberian & Poean rivers. By 904 a Party reaches the Mouth of the Niger, where they encounter a exploring party mapping east from the end of the Coast Road. In 932 Hesperia establishs its first ex-territorial Colony on the Niger River Delta.

[DominusNovus]

Nice stuff. You should make a map about it.

[DuQuense]

:o There is a old saying –My mind is made up; don't confuse me with the Facts-. Unfortunally for me I don't believe that saying. When I started this TL, I also started looking at the History of West Africa. The facts avalible about WA 500BC-500AD were very skimpy, so I was able to make up any thing I wanted. Unfortunally as I have continued to look, I have found a lot about WA 500 AD-1000 AD, and Lots & Lots about Post 1000 AD. So I will have to Rewrite parts five-seven, and Rethink where this TL is Going. This will take several days, I'll be back next week to continue. :eek:

[DominusNovus]

:o There is a old saying –My mind is made up; don't confuse me with the Facts-. Unfortunally for me I don't believe that saying. When I started this TL, I also started looking at the History of West Africa. The facts avalible about WA 500BC-500AD were very skimpy, so I was able to make up any thing I wanted. Unfortunally as I have continued to look, I have found a lot about WA 500 AD-1000 AD, and Lots & Lots about Post 1000 AD. So I will have to Rewrite parts five-seven, and Rethink where this TL is Going. This will take several days, I'll be back next week to continue. :eek:
Don't forget that the west african situation could change easily with contact with a European element (hesperia).

[DuQuense]

"HESPERIA" Part five- Trade [Take Two]

I Started rereading my notes and time lines I've been using and realized I was going way out in unreal land Going to fast with out dealing with the other forces around. [not that there isn't a ATL of Unreal land, I just don't want to rite it] So I've redone this.



The single most important development in the history of northwestern Africa was the use of the camel as a transport vehicle. In ancient times, the Egyptians and Carthaginian's engaged in just a trickle of commercial trade with west Africa, even though west Africa was rich in gold, precious metals, ivory, and other resources. The reason for this was the imposing barrier of the Sahara, which in Arabic simply means "The Desert." Around 750 AD, under the influence of Islamic peoples, northern and western Africans began to use the camel to transport goods across this forbidding terrain. Camels do several things exceptionally well: they can carry unbelievably heavy loads for impossibly long distances and they can keep their footing on sandy terrain. It was as if someone had invented sand ships and its effect on western African culture was just as profound as if they were sand ships. The most important developments occurred in the Sahel area just south of the Sahara; the Sahel provided southern terminal points for the goods being shipped across the Sahara. The Sahel is a dry, hot area with fertile areas and grasslands; all of the major north African kingdoms grew up in this area: Ghana, Mali, Songhay, and Kanem-Bornu: the Sahelian kingdoms.

Since the Third Punic War, the Romans controlled all the coastline of northern Africa. In the fourth century, however, the Romans gradually pulled out of their northern African provinces and territories. The power vacuum that they left was filled by desert Berbers, an indigenous African people (Saint Augustine, born in Carthage, may have been part Berber). The Berbers were primarily a nomadic people and would eventually play a crucial role in the spread of Islam across northern Africa. In the fifth century, however, they formed a new kingdom, called Ghana or Awkar in an area that is now southeastern Mauritania. This Berber kingdom would form the model from which all the Sahelian kingdoms would be built.

Although it originated in the late fourth century, Ghana only became a major regional power near the end of the millennium. Although the state was originally formed by Berbers, it was built on the southern edge of Berber populations. Eventually the state became dominated by the Soninke, a Mande speaking people living in the region bordering the Sahara. They built their capital city, Kumbi Saleh, right on the edge of the Sahara and the city quickly became the most dynamic and important southern terminus of the Saharan trade routes.

While eighteenth & nineteenth century European Historians would call the period between 500 ~1500 AD Hesperia's Isolation period. More modern Historians like Ann Mc Dougall, John Hunwick, & Dierk Lange, look at the extensive trade Routes that grew across north Africa During this time and how the Sahelian Kingdoms Influenced the Growth of Hesperia, and how Hesperia responded to the Increasing Militaristic development in Islam.

To Quote Ann Mc Dougall [?Is it permissible to Use real quotes and then expand them into the ATL?]
"In Africa, regional variations of the most extreme kind--from desert to grassland to forest--meant both that natural resources varied widely according to region, and that inter regional demand for commodities not locally available would be high. Hence, despite the importance of agriculture in the savanna zones, commercial wealth would take priority over agrarian wealth. While in medieval Europe, for example, the rise of trade sprang from agricultural productivity and then had to be incorporated deliberately into the conceptual framework of a profoundly agrarian society, agriculture in Africa was only one player on the wider stage of the drama of trade in goods and resources. Between Sudanic regions, mutual needs for commodities such as salt and metals were happily matched by a corresponding rich diversity of natural resources in different regions. The salt of the desert, the copper of the savanna, and the gold of the forests did not eliminate trade in agricultural and pastoral goods, but they certainly overshadowed it, at least in the historical record. In the Sudan, the merchant was not seen as a menace to the traditional hierarchies of governmental authority; rather, he was the key to their remarkable growth and prosperity. Trade in Africa did not threaten power structures. It sustained them."

"Nor did religion condemn trade outright; perhaps the Prophet Muhammad's own early success in business disposed his followers to a more accepting view of trade from the beginnings of Islam. In any case, merchants and clerics found common ground in medieval Africa. Legal opinions of north African jurists show that Muslim law sought to regulate, but not suppress, commercial activities, and was concerned that stability and order should exist (even in non-Muslim realms) for the protection of Muslim merchants. Finally, not only did merchants carry Islam across the desert and within the Sudan (the Wangara traders from Mali played an important role in this latter process), but the religious class itself--whose members are termed the zawaya--produced some of the most successful and active merchants. Clerical kin-groups within this order relied on their trading brethren for material blessings, while the latter benefited from the prayers and spiritual protection of the "men of religion." The lives and economic interests of warriors, clerics, shepherds, and traders converged on the fringes of the Sahara; every "order" of medieval African society in the regions with which we are concerned depended on trade for its very existence. Accordingly, trade was readily accepted by the society it came to underpin and transform."

Roman Soldiers had gone into the fringes of the Empire in order to Secure access to various commodities, Tin in Britain, Silver in the Balkans, ETC. The Settlers and Merchants had followed. However in Hesperia the Merchants had been first, followed by the Settlers, and Lastly by the Soldiers who followed to protect. As such the Merchant Class in Hesperia, had always been the real Power in the Province. The Merchants, choose the Senators, from there on numbers, and had a separate council to debate purely trade issues. [think Chamber of Commerce, here].

As such the Christian Church in Hesperia, from the beginning seeked to accommodate, the Merchants. And after contact with Rome and the Pope, was lost in 540, It developed on this same path, accepting Trade, & Commerce as natural parts of the Social Order.

Hesperia, Founded by Merchants, Also had no real Problem Joining the trade network as it developed in the second half of the first millennium.

[DuQuense]

map of Ghana

[DuQuense]

trade routes :cool:

[Mr.Bluenote]

I've just finished reading Hesperia TL. And I must say that it is remarkably good. Very good indeed! Nice work, DuQuense! Oh, and keep it coming! :)

Best Regards!


- Bluenote.


Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!

[fhaessig]

This is, indeed a very good TL.

I have, however, a question. Were not those parts of Africa too filled with disease for European colonisation until 19th century medecine came along?

I may be wrong, but I fear the impact of diseases is way underestimated.

Don't let that stop you from continuying, however.

[wkwillis]

I thought that the Canaries were inhabited but the Cape Verde's weren't.
The Azores, the Madeiras, the Canaries, the Cape Verdes, are all in the relatively dry and nonmalarial areas. You need standing water for mosquitos. Water barrels will do it.
Yellow Fever needs a human host for an epidemic. Malarial victims survive a long time and infect other people, but yellow fever victims tend to either die or recover.
The islands can be conquered by ocean going fleets. Think Vikings. Would they outlast the empire?
Sao Tome and Principe and Annobon are in the warm and wet, malarial zones.

[DuQuense]

IOTL the African coastal Islands main exports are Citrus and Fish, ITTL I have them discovered by acceident in 50 BC. They survive by exporting Citrus products. When the collaspse happens they survive as peasants do. living in Greeko-roman style houses, Fishing , Raising Olives and oranges [think the smaller aegean islands] IOTL The Conquestidors destroyed the Books and Killed all the heathens in the Canaries & Azores, Here the Romans married into and replaced the Natives. ITTL Twenty century scholars will have the Alantician books thad were destroyed IOTL. The first Europeans to "discover" them in the 1400's will be amazed to find a peice of old Rome.

Diasease- While there are problems -The Great Plague, 538- and other outbreaks,This part of Rome will not lose the Roman Baths, and Public Washhouses [Laundry]. IOTL the church Nixed the Public baths as Heathen, and over cleanliness became a sign of non Christian. ITTL the Hesperain church Promotes Cleanliness & Sanitation. Many of the Medical persons in Hesparia end up being Monks, & Nuns, and the Church allows a slow medical research effort, or maybe just doesn't put up any Doctrine road blockes. As such when Hesperia starts exploring around the Niger and Congo Rivers, society-culture has a open mind about how to cure Malria, Yellow fever,ect. This will also have the effect of Hesperians Thinking of the Europeans after recontact, as Dirty, Unwashed, Barbarians.

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA ; Part six- Growth

In 430 A.D. when contact was first lost, Hesperia consisted of a strip of land some 350 Roman Miles [1728 standard strides, 2.5 ft /stride] by 30~50 miles wide. Reaching 300 m north & 50 m south of Roma de Sud. [cape Timiris--cape Vert (Dakar)]. By 460 exploring parties discovered the Gambia river, followed ten years later by a Settlement at it's mouth. By 520 The Great Coastal Road reached to this Settlement, And it looked like Hesperia was Set to rapidly expand on southward. Also in 520 Trading Parties moving up the made contact with the Dogon Tribe, which was moving westward ahead of the new Kingdom of Ghana.

By 535 With the growing contacts between the two, the Dogon appeared to be poised to be the middle men between the Growing Republic of Hesperia, and the Kingdom of Ghana. Unfortutally nature had other Ideas.

In 538~39 "The Great Plague" Killed 20% of the population, of Hesperia, and Hesperia under went a period of Contraction and nearly collapsed. It was saved when it was noticed that Cleanliness appeared to be a defense. All the Various Churches agreed to start Preaching the Message that "Cleanliness is Next to Godliness". There was a upsurge at the public baths, and wash houses. Hesperia, would be spared the European Idea of dirty being Christian & clean being Jewish or Islamic.

But the Plague had started on the Coast and was carried up river, the Dogon were especially hard hit. Forty years later, When the Hesperian return they find deserted villages and fallow Fields. [Major Butterfly- IOTL the Dogon, have resisted pressure to assimilate Politically, culturally, & religonally. Maintaining their separateness to this day]

By 620 Hesperia was well on the way to Recovery, The emphasis on Keeping Clean had spread to the Medics, & Midwife's, with a decrease in delivery deaths, and childhood diseases. The worst Problem was Malaria, and while not planned the Roman Canals & Drainage products would act to decrease this over the coming years. In the north Hesperia had withdrawn close to sixty miles, abandoning a couple of small towns and a half dozen villages, that reached into the Desert. This land would be populated by Bandits, escaped slaves, and other such. 500 years later it would again be occupied and fortified during a War. But It would always have a ""Wild North Mystic" [think OTL Wild West].

In 625 two important milestones. Work slowly resumed on the "Great Coastal Road" south of the Gambia. And The last of the Dogons, accepted Christianity. While Hesperia had been founded by Roman & Greek Merchants, most of these had been Male. So almost from the beginning a large amount of interracial contact had been the norm. Romans also judged people more on their Culture, than on their color. So over time as Hesperia started growing the color had been Darkening. With the Assimilation of the Dogon, the Hesperian adaptation to Africa was almost complete. Hesperia would grow as a Latin speaking African Nation. [biologists tell us the African Nose, and Kinky Hair are dominant genes]

:p

[Tucker Dwynn]

Looking very good. Can't wait to see more!

[DuQuense]

IOTL Axum held Yemen, the Red Sea [both sides], Somilia, and was starting south into Kenya. Following The Raise of Islam Axum lost it's sea Coast Empire in several Battles . The Axum retreated into the Ethiopean Highlands, [where there had come in the 300's]. This Christian Country south of the Moslems is commonly considered the Basis of the Prester John Myths.

Given My TL can any of you see any like Myths about Hesperia? ? Any way the exsitance of a Christian country on the Africa West Coast could help Ethiopia, or affect Byzanitine.

See my Portugal & Iberia posts, What butterflies happen 1000 yrs on due to [slight]more devoloped Morocco in 425.

:confused: :confused:

[TimeStorm]

Just one correction, the Açores (Azores) was deserted. The first men in the isles were the Portuguese.

[Tom_B]

Very good TL. Well thought in most aspects but the relgious dimension is a little too neat and nice to my thinking. This isolated branch of Christendom would have its own internal squablles and theological evolution. Simply holding it at a 'primitive church" level is too idyllic.

[DuQuense]

Dog gone subborn facts keep getting in the way. was reading a Travelogue about the Islands, appearently You can see the Closer of the Islands from the shore [not distinct but "land ho" from the lookout] So My just abandon Idea has to be reworked. Yes the Azores were uninhabited when the Portugeses discovered them. This was by a Ship that was laying off the carnaries to wait out a storm and was blown to them. {Wind and tidal currents steer you rite to them}

So Whe have the Remus {Cape Verde} islands settled 50~30 BC [POD] along with the Romus {Carnary} 40~20 BC & the Azores ~50~60 AD, Selling Olives, Dried Fruit, Dried Fish,& citrus Wine to European "Rome" when the Collaspe starts.

So the Remus [Cape Verde] Islands remain a minor Estado in La Provincia Hespernia. With most Mainland contact occuring by the fishermen who sail around in them.

The Romus [carnary] Islands Would would be the Southern edge of the Roman Province of Mauritinia. with a town on the Coast opposite them. They would decline in the forth century as Rome starts it pull back.

The Town [any Ideas for its name] at the southern end of the atlas mountians, is attacked in 439 by the Vandals, but there isn't any transportation for the Vandals to the Islands. As the Vandals settle down, the Untouched Islands help in the Rebuilding.

In the 520's Belluirus reconquers Mauritinia for the Bzyanitine's. The Yellow Death in 544, is a set back to growth, and as IOTL it stagnants. a very minor province at the end of The Eastern Roman Empire.

622- Mohammahad erupts into north Africa. 642 Conquers Eygpt & Libya [Tunis], then ran into the Berbers. It would take a couple of Centuries to finish converting them. and then they remained Independent of the Eastern Power centers. IOTL there were several cities along the Moraccan coast still calling themselves "Roman" as late as 850 AD. [Reseach turns out to be fun]

ITTL the morroccan Coast was more Devoloped [A few more towns and Farmers] along with the Islands as a rebuilding pool. I'm thinking about having them hold out till the late 900's, ?Roman Muslims?

?Does any one see a problem with the Vikings-aka-Normans establishing a Colony at the Straits on their way to Sicily?
:confused:

[DominusNovus]

Sure, why not? I've seen TLs where the Normans stay in that area anyway...

[DuQuense]

Religion wise Hespernia ws the back of the beyound. Founded by Romans With a few Greeks, all Kinds of Heritics, Pagans, and Others, -Zoaistiam, Mitras, Copts, Nesterians, Gonostics, Jews, North Germanic, - ended up there when They got into trouble in Rome.

When Rome went Offically Chistian and Contancetine? held his Councils to establish uniformity, a Few Church officals were sent to bring the "Word" to Hespernia. So Hesperia, Offically had the same Religion as "Rome".

Except given the distance and the probability of this being a one way posting, there were few first or even second tier officals sent. The Officals sent were satisfied if lip service [And Tithes] were Paid. So a Just below the surface tolerance prevailed. and a Mergeing began.

After contact north was lost a new church emerged

As the Church had simply taken over the exsisting temples for their Use, the statues were renamed from Zeus and Hera, to Jehovah & Mary, with the other gods becoming the Aspolites, & Saints, of the Bible, With blaziers of Fire {zoaistism} repersenting the Holy Spirst, that burn in us all. From the Nestorians the church took the fish, instead of the cross, and from the Mithrisians, the Preist became the guardians of the Mysteries, & Holy sites,taken from the Natives.

When the Church encountered Islam it was More than happy to start incorperating parts of this new religion, this was one of the main reasons Islam would fight, and Still considers The Hesperian Church worst than the European Christians.

Suggestions being taken for what parts of Islam would be adopted.

:D

[DominusNovus]

Suggestions being taken for what parts of Islam would be adopted.
coughpolygamycough. :D

[Tom_B]

Suggestions being taken for what parts of Islam would be adopted.
:D

Probably a downplaying of the Trinity and a reversion to something close to Arianism where the Son and the Father are not on the same level. This gets rid of Islam's complaint that Christianity was not monotheisitic.

The Super Syncretistic Hesperian Church is going to be looked on very unkindly once contact is reestablished with Rome. I also think that before then there would be internal problems with some purist clerics bewailing the adulteration of the Faith.

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA ; Part seven- Contact

The adoption of the Camel by the Berbers in the fourth century had allowed them to trans cross the Sahara, The establishment of Hesperia on the coast had allowed trade from West Africa to travel by ship to North Africa, as such ITTL the establishment of the Trans Sahara trade routes was delayed. But with the collapse of the sea route in 420, and again in 544, the way was open for the Berbers.

In 390 the Berbers had established a few small settlements on the upper reaches of the Senegal river. With the collapse of the sea route in 420, these settlements had grown, only to lapse, with the resumption of the sea route in 450. But with the total Collapse in 538-544, they once again started, growing, and they would continue for the next thousand years.

Dispute several setbacks in the fifth & sixth centuries, by the second half of the seventh Hesperia was ready to grow. And, Like Rome and Constantinople before it, Roma de Sud, had the Organization to do it with. In 679 Hesperia formally {the traders had been moving back and forth, for over 50 years.} Hesperia built a village on the northeast bank of the Tiberian river. The Kingdom of Ghana objected, and War broke out.

While Ghana had a decent Military, and in fact had conquered several smaller neighbor states, Hesperia had a Military based on the Roman Republic and it's legions. By 681 Ghana was a Subject Kingdom, and Hesperia was embarked, on the Road to Empire.

[Tucker Dwynn]

sweeeet! (/cartman)

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA ; Part eight- Islam

Far to the North and East Something had happened that would completely change the Direction that Hesperia was headed. In Mecca on the Red Sea, the son of a Merchant started preaching about what was wrong with Christianity. In 622 the "Powers that Be" Kicked him out of Mecca. Within a generation of the hijra--Muhammad's flight from Mecca to Medina in A.D. 622, and hence the beginning of the growth of Islam, the youngest of the great monotheistic religions--the message of the Prophet would spread like wildfire into Asia in the east and Africa in the west. Membership in the umma, or worldwide community of believers, gave a deep sense of cohesion and community to all Muslims, regardless of race, ethnicity, status, or wealth. All shared the majestic simplicity of starkly monotheistic faith in Allah, "submission" (Islam) to whom was expressed in adherence to the five "pillars" or fundamental practices of the new religion: a profession of faith, daily prayer, fasting, alms giving, and pilgrimage.

Among the many striking successes of the early Arab warriors on jihad numbered the conquest of Egypt, which fell to Islam in 641. Muslim armies continued their drive west across north Africa, but soon encountered a more resistant foe than the Byzantine forces which had been so handily defeated in the lands around the eastern Mediterranean. These new enemies were the Berbers, the hardy "lords of the desert" who would come to dominate the trans-Saharan trade. Paradoxically, perhaps, the Berbers were attracted to the new religion even as they struggled against the bearers of its message. Soon the Berbers were Muslims every bit as fervent as the Arabs, and had moreover embraced an extremely strict form of the faith known as Khariji Islam, which emphasized utter equality between all members of the umma. After rebelling successfully against Arab domination, the Berbers were subject to the caliphs of Damascus and Baghdad in name only, and went on to play crucial and self-sufficient roles in the history of Islam and trade in Africa.

The Berbers who had founded the Kingdom of Ghana, had like their forefathers in Roman North Africa, were Christians, and accepted the Christian Hesperians. If the Hesperian Type of Christianity wasn't Catholic, of Orthodox, or Coptic, it didn't matter, because the Berbers weren't exactly Pure either. But by 680- 710 Islam had "conquered" north Africa, and the newly converted Berbers were ready and willing to convert their southern cousins.

In 710 Hesperia had a thin finger of territory that extended north of the Senegal river about 240 miles and thirty miles wide, with another abandoned 60 miles further north. To the south they had crossed the Gambia and were expanding along the foothills of the Guinea highlands. [OTL Senegal & Guinea-Bissau], With the absorbsion of the Dogon, they had expanded inland all along the south & west banks of the Senegal river. This they had settled, and controlled by living on it.

With the unplanned Conquest of Ghana, a lot had changed. Ghana had conquered several neighbor states and extended from the Mauritania Coast to the city of Goa on the Niger River. These subject peoples had been unhappy about being part of Ghana, but at lest Ghana was a Berber Kingdom like them. While these small kingdoms weren't ready to rebel, they were more than willing to show their unhappiness by embracing the new religion of Islam. By 730 these subject kingdoms were majority Islam.

[ [It's hard to get exact dates for events at this period, but IOTL, the Islaming of these Berber Kingdoms started in the early 700's. It then took several generations. I have speeded it up, as a reaction to the Conquest of Greater Ghana, By the Hesperian Christians].

In 760 After only 80 years [third generation reaching adulthood] the Hesperian Empire collapsed. Lead by the Songhay tribe in the City of Goa, the Islamic Kingdoms rebelled. While the Hesperians had the superior Army, the difficulties of subduing a hostile population over the distances needed, was just to much to handle. Like it's founder had done 300 years earlier, Roma de Sud withdrew to it's core and immediate surrounding territory. [With more Success than Rome had had. It managed to hold Ghana].

After regaining their freedom the Small Islamic Kingdoms started on a program of forced conversion or expulsion of the remaining Christians in the Kingdoms. Thousands fled, or were forced out. Once again Hesperia received a flood of refugees. Those that didn't settle in Ghana, ended up being settled in the Guinea Highlands. After a short try at Empire, Hesperia, once again a Republic, was back at it's old Game of, Growing it's way south.

[Diamond]

Nice.

Somehow I don't foresee all those temporarily Hesperian kingdoms saying 'live and let live' after driving out the Christians... will the kingdoms only provide a minor threat to Hesperia, disunited and squabbling with each other, or will Someone unite them and try to take Ghana and then march on the south?

And how are the arabian and egyptian islamics reacting to this remnant of Rome in the south?

[DuQuense]

Ghana was the first of the sub saharan Sahelian, Medival era Kindoms, they were overthrown by the Songhay base in Gao on the Niger river. The Songhay gave way to the Mali ect . While these kingdoms tried to establish stable Gov'ts and Armies , the First and most inportant thing in these Kingdoms was a stable trading Relation with their Neigbors.

Few Merchants made the Trip with their goods all the way from sub sahara to Eygpt or Charthage, there were three of four middle kingdoms between with the good bought sold and reshipped along the way.

So when a merchant in Cario or Alexanderia received the Goods, he only knew that they had come from the far south west BEYOND the great Sahara.

As Such while I'll have some border incidents between Hesperia & the Songhay,

The Hesperians take Augustus Caeser advise that there are limits to expansion. and like the other Sahel Kingdoms will concentrate on trade.

Of Course, The Islamic Fundilmentists will pop up Shortly and change the equastion.

[DominusNovus]

Very nice. Any chance of a map?

[DuQuense]

If I can figure out how to use Paint

[Peter]

Good work, but get me a map over your growing empire and some population figures!

[DuQuense]

I finnally figured out how to get a map into paint and how to use the program.
now the upload isn't working.

Any idea on Brazil. Some one pointed out that some of my Sailors may be blown over that way.

IOTL there were Moroccoan Cities in the late 700~early 800 time frame that still spoke "Latin" and condidered themselves as part of the Roman Empire, They were finally Assimulated into the Berber Islamic Culture by the "Almorvids". The Almorvids [ Warriors of the frountiers] were a Militarat Sect, arising around 1000 AD that beleived in a strict form of Islam, and used force to Push the Frountier outward.

In the 950 time Vikings raided not only Britian and the north sea areas, but also raided Spain & North Africa on their way to settleing in Sciliy.

ITTL Due to Hesperia in the South and the Settlemnt of the Carnary Islands, The whole Moroccoan coast was more developed.

SO WI Some of the Vikings settle in my Morocco, ~ 950~1000, forming a Norse kingdom [like Normandy]. As they were still a Mixture of Pagans & New Christians, how would they get along with the Trader Berbers [lslamic- but trade more important], & the "Romans"? Could they hold out when the Almovids, [Allah above all else] start attacking ~1050?

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA ; Part nine- Interlude with developments


Hesperia was founded as a series of supply posts along the West African Coast, to allow Traders to travel to and from the Remus Islands, [OTL Cape Verde]. These post grew into centers of trade with the Natives along the Coast. Then into villages when Farmers and Fishermen settled in them. As they Became towns there also were Soldiers and Craftsmen. But the reason and wealth of Hesperia was Trade, And this was carried on Ships from Europe. When contact with Europe was lost in 544, One of the Crafts that had never Settled in Hesperia was ShipWright.

True there were Fishermen along the Coast, And while they did make their own boats, That what they were, Boats-Small Boats. Capable of Day trips along the Coast, mostly out in the morning, home by dark, and not in poor weather. There were also small native boats on the River, but these were just various sized canoes.

While there had been a few ships in Port, before, They had loaded up and left for Europe. By the Time the plague was over, and people had time to look around again, they realized it had been several years since the last south bound ship had arrived. It had been full of Plague Victims. The Hesperians dealing with their own Plague, quarantined, & Then Burnt the Ship. [Yellow death in Europe, 537-547, about as bad as the first wave of the Black Death ~1300, except only one wave of the Yellow Death, The black had multiple waves]. Unknown to the Hesperians several other south bound ships had wrecked along the coast when the crews had sur come to the Plague.

Now due to losing 20% of their population, and the need to recover, this wasn't a immediate Problem. But by ~620, Hesperia had recovered, began pushing South. At this time a need for Some type of Ocean Vessel became apparent. Having identified a problem, The Hesperians set out to solve it.

[Ian the Admin]

If upload didn't work, the image was probably too big. Try saving it as a JPG or GIF instead of a BMP.

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA ; Part Ten- Ships


When the Songhay of Goa Had lead a Islamic revolt among the small Ghana client states most of the remaining Christians in these areas had fled Into -nominally Christian -Hesperian controlled lands, but not all. A small percentage of them fled down the Niger River. There on the Delta where the River spread out into various Mouths they established the City of Porto de Rio.

In the mid 600's when Hesperia was growing south the need for ocean transport had been a problem, for a while they had tried scaling up the small boats, used by the fishermen along the shore. But While the small Mediterian style boats where usable for short day trips, the scaled up models had major problems handling the Atlantic Ocean. The solution when it came was simple, and opened up the whole coast to them, and even allowed them to recontact the Remus Island several hundred miles off shore. Of Course in the 20th century, it would also lead to people like Von Damiken trying to propose contact between West Africa and the South Pacific circa 700 AD.

Some time around 670~80 some one took a large canoe and tied a smaller canoe out on either side, While the "powers that be" originally scoffed at the idea, by 700 the center hulls had reached lengths over 150' with the out riggers half that, and they were everywhere along the coast. Exploring farther and farther, and leaving small settlements and trading posts in their wake.

[I like Trimarains. and like lots of other inventions, they fall into that they could have, so why didn't they, category. ITTL they will be the African answer to the European Carvel, and the Chinese Junk]

In 795 the first of the Hesperian Ships reached one of the Niger River mouths and sailed north.

[DominusNovus]

[I like Trimarains. and like lots of other inventions, they fall into that they could have, so why didn't they, category. ITTL they will be the African answer to the European Carvel, and the Chinese Junk]
Ditto. Now, when we get closer to the modern day, give them airships. :D

[DuQuense]

First of Several

[DuQuense]

Second one

[DuQuense]

And Third 700 AD

[DominusNovus]

Yay! Maps! I'm so bad with African geography, I thought things were going on far to the south of where they actually where. Thanks for clearing things up.

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA ; Part Eleven- Interlude 2

Hesperia had been founded by Merchants in the first century, the major minority of which had been Greeks. Along with them they had brought their Architecture, which had become the predominate style. They had also brought Olives, Mead, Temples, Books, and Skills & Crafts.

By the third and fourth centuries Hesperia was developing its own styles, Based on the Roman & Greek art they had brought with them, but seriously influenced by the Native Traditions. With the Discovery of large copper & tin supplies in the Guinea Highlands, a New Bronze age of art began. By the 350'~375 period, Hesperian Bronze, had joined with the Ivory, & exotic woods, being shipped North.

The collapse of the shipping route north, slowed this, But This just helped Hesperia Develop it's own sense of Style. As the berbers developed trade routes across the desert following the introduction of the camel, in the forth century, Hesperian Bronzes again were sold around the Mediterranean, thru most peoples, no longer knew from where they came.

But Bronze art wasn't the only thing, Hesperia abounded with riches, Ivory, exotic Woods, Iron ore, and of course Gold. And the Jewelers & Artisans used them all, Alone or Together, creating some of today's most wildly admired art. As Hesperia was a Christian country lots of this had a Religionish Theme. And while the Muslims, who ran the trade routes, may have disagreed with their Christian cohorts religiously, neither side was about to let a little thing like religion interfere, with Important things like Trade.

By the early ninth century Hesperian art was decorating Churches, Chapels & Monastaries, from Constantinople to Dublin. [This will have a butterfly effect later].

The Major influence on the style of Public Buildings, in the early years was the Greeko-Roman, style. And while this remained , even here there were native influences, The round native huts, lead to a more Rotunda style, and the tall Roman Arches, became longer and lower. Some Archititural Historians, Have argued that this is the Reason, that Hesperia, took so readily to Dome style homes after the invention of Spraycrete in the 1890's.

[DuQuense]

Thought this may help in the Inmagination department.

[DuQuense]

Hesperia 800 ad

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA; Part televe; Hesperian Christian? Church


Religion wise Hesperia was the back of the beyond. Founded by Romans With a few Greeks, all Kinds of Heretics, Pagans, and Others, -Zoaistiam, Mitras, Copts, Nesterians, Gonostics, Jews, North Germanic, - ended up there when They got into trouble in Rome.

When Rome went Officially Christian and Contancetine? held his Councils to establish uniformity, a Few Church officials were sent to bring the "Word" to Hesperia. So Hesperia, Officially had the same Religion as "Rome".

Except given the distance and the probability of this being a one way posting, there were few first or even second tier officials sent. The Officials sent were satisfied if lip service [And Tithes] were Paid. So a Just below the surface tolerance prevailed. and a Merging began.

After contact north was lost a new church emerged.

As the Church had simply taken over the existing temples for their Use, the statues were renamed from Zeus and Hera, to Jehovah & Mary, with the other gods Statues and images portraying the asposilies, & Saints, of the Bible. Of course along with the image came many of the attubutes. Paul the mess ager, Peter the Builder, Lazarus the Saint that guard the underworld etc.
From Zoroastriasm? came braziers of Fire on the Altar{ representing the Holy Spirit, that burn in us all.
From the Nesterians the church took the fish, instead of the cross, and from the Mithrisians, the Priest became the guardians of the Mysteries, & Holy sites, taken from the Natives.
And from the Arianists came a down playing of Christ's divinity, Yes he was the True Son of God, who Died to save US all. But the important thing was his Coming to bring the word of God.
In time Christmas, [ Vernal Equalnox] The day the Father sent The word made flesh, became the Major holiday. [OTL the early church emprimised Easter.]

Many of the Natives the Hesperians first encountered Practiced Polygamy, and this is something that the Romans had no real problem with, most of the First Generation were Males, and the natives considered the traders Rich. Many Fathers were happy to sell their relatively worthless daughters to these New Comers, and didn't care if the Trader already had another wife.
In fact there were many cases were several Daughters were sold to the same "Husband". After Christianity arrived Polygamy slowed, but as the early church had no hard and fast ban on the practice, it continued. [IOTL it wasn't till the 1250's that the Church put a absolute ban on Polygamy, at the same time as it outlawed Priest's Marriages]. The Hesperian Chruch never would.

When the Church encountered Islam it was More than happy to start incorporating parts of this new religion, as the Monks Attended Mass several times a day, and the Priests held three mass for the faithful Daily, The Inman's Call to the Faithful fit rite in.

This sounds a lot more together than it really was in the early years, the thing was a complete Mish Mash of competing Ideas, and practices, When the Hesperians first conquered the Ghanaians, [680] and the much more Doctrine are Christians got their first look at the Hesperian Church, They wanted nothing to do with it.. And in fact this was one of the Reasons for the acceptance of Islam.

But in 769 that all changed.

Abdul Assemi was born in 727 AD in Bambia about 150 miles north of Goa, The fourth of six sons [and nine daughters] of a very prominent Christian trading family, Adbul had to be politically adept just to survive his place in the Family, At the age of sixteen, Abdul was already being Groomed for the Traders Council. But first, Adbul accomplished a trading caravan to Egypt & Ethiopia, While in these countries, Adbul was exposed to several Differing Missionaries, exatully how and where is unknown. We do know Abdul and returned home, Believing that he was called by God to a great Work, more interested in Religion, than Politics, thru at the levels Abdul ended up playing , they're close to the same.

In 760 with the revolt of Goa, Abdul was forced to flee with his Wives, and Family, ending up in Dakar, south of the great Roma de Sud. Along the way He and Family had, taken refugee in many Monistaries along the way [ safe places to spend several nites, resting up, while traveling], as a Christian Scholar he was Appalled at he Mish Mash, thru as a scholar he understood, how it had happened.

As Abdul, Helped his Brothers restart the Family trading Business, he spent the evenings Studying and rewriting the Bible, and deciding which Books to Keep. [Lots of the Books that the Catholic & Orthodox churches had thrown out, where still circulating in Hesperia.] As the years passed, Adbul seemed to be coming more and more finely Honed, and processed, of a mission.

In 769 on one fine day in early spring "Abdul Assemi" Walked down to the Square in front of the local church,and began to Preach. Some of what he Said, some of the Priests agreed with, some, other Priests agreed with. What they couldn't agree on was what to do with Abdul, So Abdul keep on Preaching. Within months he was preaching from within the church, and had his own apostates.

In 774 Abdul left Dakar, and Moved to Roma de Sud. Once again, their were arguments over what to do about him, But Abdul was a Master Politician by this time. Once again no agreement, was reached. 775 found Abdul preaching from within the Churches. In 782, Abdul was elected Patriarch of Roma de Sud. By the time of his Death, in 809, at 82, the [Super Syncretistic- He had even included passages from the Koran] Hesperian church Was established, with a unified doctrine, and Practices. Saint Abdul Was the Great prophet

During the 900's this Syncrestistism would bring the Hesperian church into conflict with Islam [Mohammed was the Last and Greatest Prophet, all other are frauds]. and again with the Christian Church in the 1500's [ the Great Heresy]

While today the isn't any violence in the dispute, Both The Catholic, Orthodox, & Islamic Churches still consider the Hesperian Church as Heresy.

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA ; Part Thirteen Colonies and Allies

When the First Hesperian exploration vessel reached Porto de Rio, They found a Small Settlement of several thousand people, with another couple thousands more in the surrounding area.
most of the Settlement was less than 25 years old, but it was several orders larger than Any of the Trading posts, Hesperia was establishing along the coast. The Merchants on the Ship Unpacked and set up shop.

Most of the Porto De Rioians were refugees, Who had been on the Wrong side when Goa Lead the Islamic revolt against Hesperia. Now that contact had been reestablished They expected to be once again ruled from Roma de Sud. But the Hesperian had learned the lesson of Augustus. Who following the defeat in the Black Forest, by the Germans had declared a limit to the size of Empire.

Over the next Fifty~ Sixty years Traders, Settlers, and Missionaries, arrived allowing the expansion of PdR up the Niger River and in a narrow strip farther along the Coast. In 856 they again came to the attention of the Mali Kingdom which was expanding and absorbing the remains of the old Ghana Empire, that Hesperia had been driven out of. A series of Border clashes ensued.

At this Point The Rioians turned for help to Hesperia, A formal treaty of Friendship, & Alliance, and Hesperian {Military Advisors} became arriving in Porto De Rio. Along with them they brought their Wives, and their Camp followers. PdR continued to expand. While Porto de Rio continued to be formally a independent Country. More and more it was becoming a outpost of Hesperia.

Meanwhile by 950 Hesperia had two new Colonies to Expand One 400 Miles to the southeast of Porto de Rio, A growing trading centre with the Kongo Tribe, at the Mouth of a Great River. The second some 800 miles to the South West of Hesperia, at the mouth of a either larger River.

[DuQuense]

My TL took a un expected Bounce My 800 AD map Redone :eek:

?Any Sugestions for the Name of my Brazilian Colony, or for My New World Continents.

[Justin Green]

Heres a site that gives the many possible origins of Brazils name. You can use them if you can integrate them into your story. http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/brazil.htm

Personally I prefer Hy-Brazil

[Tom_B]

HESPERIA; Part televe; Hesperian Christian? Church


Religion wise Hesperia was the back of the beyond. Founded by Romans With a few Greeks, all Kinds of Heretics, Pagans, and Others, -Zoaistiam, Mitras, Copts, Nesterians, Gonostics, Jews, North Germanic, - ended up there when They got into trouble in Rome.

When Rome went Officially Christian and Contancetine? held his Councils to establish uniformity, a Few Church officials were sent to bring the "Word" to Hesperia. So Hesperia, Officially had the same Religion as "Rome".

Except given the distance and the probability of this being a one way posting, there were few first or even second tier officials sent. The Officials sent were satisfied if lip service [And Tithes] were Paid. So a Just below the surface tolerance prevailed. and a Merging began.

After contact north was lost a new church emerged.

As the Church had simply taken over the existing temples for their Use, the statues were renamed from Zeus and Hera, to Jehovah & Mary, with the other gods Statues and images portraying the asposilies, & Saints, of the Bible. Of course along with the image came many of the attubutes. Paul the mess ager, Peter the Builder, Lazarus the Saint that guard the underworld etc.
From Zoroastriasm? came braziers of Fire on the Altar{ representing the Holy Spirit, that burn in us all.
From the Nesterians the church took the fish, instead of the cross, and from the Mithrisians, the Priest became the guardians of the Mysteries, & Holy sites, taken from the Natives.
And from the Arianists came a down playing of Christ's divinity, Yes he was the True Son of God, who Died to save US all. But the important thing was his Coming to bring the word of God.
In time Christmas, [ Vernal Equalnox] The day the Father sent The word made flesh, became the Major holiday. [OTL the early church emprimised Easter.]

Many of the Natives the Hesperians first encountered Practiced Polygamy, and this is something that the Romans had no real problem with, most of the First Generation were Males, and the natives considered the traders Rich. Many Fathers were happy to sell their relatively worthless daughters to these New Comers, and didn't care if the Trader already had another wife.
In fact there were many cases were several Daughters were sold to the same "Husband". After Christianity arrived Polygamy slowed, but as the early church had no hard and fast ban on the practice, it continued. [IOTL it wasn't till the 1250's that the Church put a absolute ban on Polygamy, at the same time as it outlawed Priest's Marriages]. The Hesperian Chruch never would.

When the Church encountered Islam it was More than happy to start incorporating parts of this new religion, as the Monks Attended Mass several times a day, and the Priests held three mass for the faithful Daily, The Inman's Call to the Faithful fit rite in.

This sounds a lot more together than it really was in the early years, the thing was a complete Mish Mash of competing Ideas, and practices, When the Hesperians first conquered the Ghanaians, [680] and the much more Doctrine are Christians got their first look at the Hesperian Church, They wanted nothing to do with it.. And in fact this was one of the Reasons for the acceptance of Islam.

But in 769 that all changed.

Abdul Assemi was born in 727 AD in Bambia about 150 miles north of Goa, The fourth of six sons [and nine daughters] of a very prominent Christian trading family, Adbul had to be politically adept just to survive his place in the Family, At the age of sixteen, Abdul was already being Groomed for the Traders Council. But first, Adbul accomplished a trading caravan to Egypt & Ethiopia, While in these countries, Adbul was exposed to several Differing Missionaries, exatully how and where is unknown. We do know Abdul and returned home, Believing that he was called by God to a great Work, more interested in Religion, than Politics, thru at the levels Abdul ended up playing , they're close to the same.

In 760 with the revolt of Goa, Abdul was forced to flee with his Wives, and Family, ending up in Dakar, south of the great Roma de Sud. Along the way He and Family had, taken refugee in many Monistaries along the way [ safe places to spend several nites, resting up, while traveling], as a Christian Scholar he was Appalled at he Mish Mash, thru as a scholar he understood, how it had happened.

As Abdul, Helped his Brothers restart the Family trading Business, he spent the evenings Studying and rewriting the Bible, and deciding which Books to Keep. [Lots of the Books that the Catholic & Orthodox churches had thrown out, where still circulating in Hesperia.] As the years passed, Adbul seemed to be coming more and more finely Honed, and processed, of a mission.

In 769 on one fine day in early spring "Abdul Assemi" Walked down to the Square in front of the local church,and began to Preach. Some of what he Said, some of the Priests agreed with, some, other Priests agreed with. What they couldn't agree on was what to do with Abdul, So Abdul keep on Preaching. Within months he was preaching from within the church, and had his own apostates.

In 774 Abdul left Dakar, and Moved to Roma de Sud. Once again, their were arguments over what to do about him, But Abdul was a Master Politician by this time. Once again no agreement, was reached. 775 found Abdul preaching from within the Churches. In 782, Abdul was elected Patriarch of Roma de Sud. By the time of his Death, in 809, at 82, the [Super Syncretistic- He had even included passages from the Koran] Hesperian church Was established, with a unified doctrine, and Practices. Saint Abdul Was the Great prophet

During the 900's this Syncrestistism would bring the Hesperian church into conflict with Islam [Mohammed was the Last and Greatest Prophet, all other are frauds]. and again with the Christian Church in the 1500's [ the Great Heresy]

While today the isn't any violence in the dispute, Both The Catholic, Orthodox, & Islamic Churches still consider the Hesperian Church as Heresy.

Might make Abdul's religion something like the Ba'hais--a theology where there are a succession of High Prophets/Chosen Ones who both reiterate the same message and have something unique to bring. Abdul would see him in the latest in a string. My understanding is that something similar is in the esoteric inner teachings of the Druse.

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA; Part Fourteen; Interlude Europe

Hesperia founded in the first and second centuries by Greek-Roman Traders on the west coast of Africa, south of the Great Sahara Desert, was non the less a part of Europe. While the early Roman maps were very bad with longitude, due to the poor timekeeping devices available, Latitude was another matter. When the early Traders started moving this far south, even the stars in the southern sky changed. Several famous Roman Astrologers traveled to Hesperia just to see. They also measured the Angles, and made charts, and maps. Due to this both Hesperia in the west, and Axum in the east, were well know to the map makers, and to most well educated residents of the Roman Empire.

When contact was lost, many of these maps were preserved in Monasteries, and Churches across Europe. While the maps survived the associated knowledge often was misinterpreted. By the early 800's Hesperia was been confused with Axum, and the both with the great kingdom of Prester John. Theological debates raged over the exact placement in Africa or Asia, or even if the maps were allegories for the Heavenly kingdom to come.

There was one thing that helped keep the debates in the realm of the world, The continued trade in Christian artifacts, the Islam traders of the Mediterranean, were selling thru out Europe. The most beautifully worked Bronzes, inlaid with precious Metals, Ivory, Jewels, & Exotic Woods. When pressed, for were they came from, the answer was always just {south}.

This is the way it would have stayed except in the late seventh century around the Baltic Sea, a revolution in ship building occurred, Historians are still debating the How and Why, but the What was a explodtion of Norse men raiding across Europe from the black Sea and Byzantium to Ireland and points south. In 844 The Viking [ ie. rovers] Under the command of Hoald Svenson, Raided along the Spanish Coast. Among the loot from a Spanish Church, Hoald noticed the same kind of Artifacts, as he had gotten from a Irish Monastery.

When Pressed the Spanish captives could only say that, the Arabs traded it from a rich Christian land in the south. Hoald returned home with his crew, for the Winter. While there got about the same story from the Irish Slaves, captured earlier, One of them even had a embroidered map. Hoald then spent the next three years organizing the greatest Raid ever.

In 847 9000 Norse men in 203 ships set out for the {South}

[Tucker Dwynn]

A possible name for the "new world" could be 'Terra Nova'. I know it's fairly simplistic, but it does describe the new land. Or for Brazil, what is latin for "Land of Emeralds"?

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA; Part Fifteen; Interlude Mauritania


Hesperia was Founded by traders far to the south in Africa. But this wouldn't have been possible except that a large portion of the Atlantic coast along the way was already under the control of Rome. When Rome conquered Carthage in the third Punic war they completely destroyed the city. The problem was that Carthage was were it was due to being a crossroad between African & Mediterranean trade routes. In Fact Carthage was simply the great Trading Center of the Numidian kingdom of Mauritania, which extends from the Atlantic to Algeria.


The Numidian kingdom came to an end under Juba I, In 46 BC who entered the fierce civil wars among the Romans on the [wrong] side of Pompey, and was defeated by Julius Caesar. Receptive to both Carthaginian's and Hellenistic Greek customs, the Numidians had splendid palaces in the Hellenistic style, Greek philosophers to counsel them, and temples dedicated to the Phoenician god Baal Hammon, sometimes assimilated into the Greek Zeus. In Caesar's triumphal procession, resplendent booty worthy of Numidian wealth and taste is paraded through the streets of Rome, along with Juba II, infant son of the defeated king.

Augustus, who emerges victorious at Rome after a century of war, grants Juba II the client kingship of Mauritania. His domain corresponds to a portion of the former Numidian kingdom. Reared at Rome, Juba II is a man of extraordinary learning, a collector and a patron of the arts. He marries Cleopatra Selene, daughter of the great Cleopatra defeated by Augustus. Copies of Greek statues adorn his palace, and he authors several volumes in Greek on a wide range of subjects, including a history of Rome, the antiquities of various nations, and research on language and the theater.

Unfortally, Ptolemy, son of Juba II and king of Mauritania, is murdered in Rome in 42 AD. The kingdom comes to an end and is incorporated into the Roman empire. Within four years, colony settlements with garrisons of soldiers are established in Mauritanian territory. These settlements extent down the coast along the Atlas Mountains, were ever there are watering spots, at the mouths of creeks, streams, & Rivers. Along with these settlements go Defense walls, Farms, & Irrigation Projects, and of course Roads. The Great Coast Road will extent from A Rebuilt Carthage [ The City was Needed, so the Romans rebuilt it in the 40's BC.] to Tangeirs at the Pillar of Hercules,where it turned south,

By 150 A.D. Carthage and Tangeirs are thriving and populous cities. Thanks to Their fine ports and strategic location, . By the second century, They Are filled with splendid buildings of Roman design, including bath complexes overlooking the sea. Numerous other cities in the region follow the Roman model. They have streets organized on a grid plan, a forum to serve as a civic and commercial center, theaters and amphitheaters for entertainment, and temples to the Roman deities Saturn and Juno, often erected on the sites of sanctuaries dedicated to their Carthaginian counterparts Baal Hammon and Tanit.

By 300 the Great Coastal Road Reaches to the End of the Atlas Mountains, to the Town of Remus, Where it encounters the Great Sahara Desert. This is also the end of the settlements till they resume on the other side of the Desert in Hesperia.

In 429 A.D. The Vandals, a Germanic tribe, invade North Africa from Spain. Their conquests are both brutal and swift, and they occupy Carthage as their capital. Although chaos reigns in the years just after they arrive, order returns in time, and Roman customs continue. The illiterate Vandals adopt the written Latin language, maintain country villas in the Roman style, and restore baths, theaters, and churches. While several Groups of Vandals pillaged down the Coast, all the way to Remus, By the time they reached here, they were more interested in Settling down.

During this Several groups of Refugees flee to Hesperia and for a while trade is ended. Within Thirty years trade resumes, thro with the ongoing collapse of the western Empire, It never reaches the level from before the invasions.

By 500 North Africa is in the hands of Vandal rulers, adherents of a form of Christianity called Arianism. The Vandals are few in number, however, and rely on the Romanized African elite to maintain local institutions. The Western Church based in Rome remains powerful, with the Latin language dominant. Cities founded under Roman rule begin to lose vitality, Several cities in the interior up in the mountains and along the southern border are abandoned, as the urban population dwindles and civic buildings fall into disrepair. Artists continue to work in the styles current before the Vandal invasions.

In 533 The Byzantine commander Belisarius leads an army into North Africa and conquers it for Emperor Justinian within a year. An edict of 535 establishes the power of the church of Rome over the region, although disputes persist over matters of doctrine and leadership. The Byzantine's assert their rule by restoring some North African cities and even building new churches, for example, at Leptis Magna and Timgad (ancient Thamugadi). Nomadic raiders on the margins of their domain, however, present a constant threat. The Byzantine's dismantle the ruins of Interior cities near the border and reuse the stones in defensive fortresses.

Between 644 & 656 Muslim Arab armies, under the reign of the Rightly Guided Caliph cUthman ibn cAffan, launch raids into and conquer parts of North Africa. And by 670 Under the leadership of Arab warrior cUqba ibn Nafic, Muslim armies conquer an area stretching from present-day northern Tunisia to Tangier (ancient Tingis) in Morocco, establishing the Umayyad dynasty in North Africa. Ibn Nafic founds the city of Kairouan [Rebuilds] (al-Qayrawan, Tunisia). In 711 the Muslims cross over to Gibalter and into Hiberia.
In 836 The Great Mosque of Kairouan is built (with additions 862, 875, and later) by the Aghlabids (800-909), a dynasty that recognizes cAbbasid suzerainty [Eygpt]. Although this monumental mosque's architecture reflects the influence of Umayyad Damascus and cAbbasid Iraq, various elements, such as the building's T-shaped plan, are distinctly Maghribi.

To the South along the Coast the Remains of the Byzantine Armies and the Vandal Tribesmen manage to hold out . Dispute a slow motion ongoing decline.

By the early 800's century, however, caravans between North Africa and the western Sudan, and Close contacts with Islamic Spain and trans-Saharan trade bring wealth to the region. The Area still considers itself as part of the greater Roman Empire, The Population is Stableizing, and thanks to the Byzantine's in the 600's, Some of the irrigation systems still work. If it can hold against the Muslims, it may just survive.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Note that the Byzantines never gave up bathing, and their cleanliness is handed down to us today in the form of Turkish Baths. Bathing does nothing to protect you from plagues, though, it just makes you smell better.

I think this is one of the best and most interesting TL I have seen here, but you're going too far with the discovery of the cause of plague in the 6th c. There's really no way for this to happen without development of the Scientific Method that developed over 1,000 years later. In any case, it doesn't really matter to your TL very much. I would agree that you are underestimating the effects of tropic diseases on Roman settlers, which might have made development of a Roman city on the continent difficult until significant interbreeding had already occurred.

One other factor that could be problemmatic, although I would think it would just adjust the origins a bit, is that the Canaries and Madeiras were well-known to the Romans and Phoenicians. One of the groups, and I can't remember which, was the source of a plant that produced purple dye that replaced the shellfish source in Palestine. The name for the Canary Islands is actually the Roman name, and comes not from the birds but "Canaris", the large dogs that were native to the isles - a Roman expedition visited B.C.

As far as anyone knows, the Cape Verde and Azores were totally uninhabited, so those are free, but note that Cape Verde is unhealthy during the rainy season and is prone to crippling doughts that would have made the population of the islands dependent on other sources of food. It seems to me though that all four groups are close enough together and sea-based enough that contact would not be lost, particularly Cape Verde and the Gambia.

[DominusNovus]

The name for the Canary Islands is actually the Roman name, and comes not from the birds but "Canaris", the large dogs that were native to the isles - a Roman expedition visited B.C.
I thought the Romans called them the Prosperity Islands...

[DuQuense]

They were the Prosperity Islands, but they were renamed, after Remus, the largest town on the islands. Thanx for the Climiate Info, So we will move the shipwrecks to the african coast in the vicinity of the Senagal River. and have the Cape Verde islands discovered by Fishermen, In a Grandbanks fishing spot senerio.

I wasn't thinking of Cleanlyness as a no Plague, But more in the less Childbirth Fever, slighty less sickness, better medics, leads to more population growth, quicker adaption to west africa, Mode. ?Did that make sense?

We are dealing with a Frontier socitity. The Roman republic lastest 300~400 years, The Byzanitines lastest 1000. If the Byzanitines \Rome had collasped without the Ottomans\Barbarians, was there any internal groups that would lead it back toward a Republic. Or would we get Anarky, till some one else takes over?

I'm going have to have a part dealing with the Gov't, like my Religion section,
founding to 400 ruled by Roman governor with Hesperia Council [senate].
400-700 Senate takes over -700~800 Empire, Milatary rises in power, revolt, empire contracts back to senate , Milatary continues to grow, 1050 Jihad, Milatary takes over to fight, ???? Return to cilvilain rule, but its the Nuts & bolts of the thing.

This is going to take a while [ i hate homework] Rewrite Three coming up.
meanwhile a couple of parts i had already written.

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA: Part sixteen; New world

Sometime between 670~680 Hesperia discovered The Trimaran, and by 700 was starting to us them to explore along the coast. In the 790's they contacted the Porto de Rio-ans at the mouth of the Niger River, and in the 840's, established a trading post, among the Kongo tribesmen. While the first Trimarans were simply several small canoes, fastened on either side of a slightly larger one, They grew as the Hesperians learned the art of ship building, By the early 800's the center hull on some ships were reaching 150~200 feet in length. The Ships were truly becoming ocean going vessels.

In 852, a Trading Vessel traveling out to the Remus Islands, was caught in a vicious Storm and driven to the southwest. For several days the ship rode out the Storm. The captain put out a storm anchor, and while unable to maneuver clear of the storm, the ship rode easy, and wasn't really in danger. On the Third day the storm died out and the crew sighted land.

The Captain knowing the return journey would be Northeast, decided to sail north along the new coast for time before turning east. Several hours later they encountered Fresh water at the mouth of a river so wide it took close to a hour to cross. On the bank of the river there was a village, stopping to refill the water barrels, the crew noticed the natives wearing Gold Bracelets, & neck pieces [and little else]. Immediately the Captain broke out some trade goods. Placing the goods in piles, and indicating the Native jewelry. The blankets were good, the Glassware was better, but best was the Bronze arrowheads. Seeing this several Crewmen placed some iron Knives, and axes out. As the Captain, and Crew gathered up their loot, the Captain was already planning the next Voyage.

[DuQuense]

HESPERIA: Part seventeen; Conquest vs Settlement

In the period 400 AD thru 850 the Roman Province had gone thru many changes, Invasions by Vandals, Byzantine's, And several attempts by the Muslim Berbers. The area was focused on Survival, Supposily part of the Roman Empire, Latin was still spoken, & Christianity [Arianism] was the religion. All that was left was the Atlantic coast, and most contact with Europe had been lost. even the name had changed Mauritania was now maghrib in the Mediterrian north, and Morocco along the Atlantic Coast. Therefore, No one in Morocco was paying attention to the Raids and Settlements made by a new group of Barbarians, across Europe, From Constantinople and Sicily to France and Brittany the call went up to Heaven.

OH Lord , from the Terror of the Norse men, Oh Lord deliver Us.

Of Course the Norse didn't look at it quite the same way, They were simply looking for a way to survive on their poor rocky farms, and if there was wealth and good land, they wanted part of it.
In 840 when Hoald Svenson, took part in a raid on Spain, He noticed the Similarities, between Loot taken From many different places in Europe, All suppose to have come form the far South. Hoald decided to cut out the Middlemen, and go straight to the Source.

In 844 Hoald Svenson set out on the Greatest Raid, made to date. Some 9,000 men in 203 ships, Left Norway headed south. A month later the fleet reached Tangeirs. Hoald looked at the defensive walls built by the Romans, rebuilt by the Byzantine's, and repaired by Ibn Nafic. Dispute the feelings of his self & his followers Hoald decided to trade for supplies. This wasn't the goal of the raid, and Hoald wanted to save his strength. So resupplied, Hoald continued south.

It was now that Hoald ran into a problem he had never expected. When the Romans had sailed this way that had set up their camps one day sailing apart, and Hoald ships sailed at the same speed. As such every day there was a new town, some welcomed, Some traded, Some fought, But every day there was a New Green Fruitful Town. And most of Hoald's men were young men, interested in New fertile fields, without a large population to stop them. By the time Hoald reached the Town of Remus, at the edge of the Sahara, he had less than 50 ships, & 1,500 Men.

Three days south of Remus, Sailing along miles of miles of sand dunes, He was down to Twenty ships, At this point Hoald admitted defeat, and turned back north. Back in the Town of Remus, Hoald set up Court. Declaring him self {King of Svezia Nova}. He would spent the rest of his life, encouraging others from Norseland to move to his new Kingdom, and trying to get the men who had sworn to follow him, to Accept his Kingship.

[Peter]

Remus, where on the map is Remus to be found?

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I thought the Romans called them the Prosperity Islands...

Note that places are frequently called more than one thing. Rest assured, the Canaris Islands were named by the Romans after the large dogs there; there are multiple sources to confirm that.

The capital of the Ottoman Empire was called interchangeably by the Ottomans Konstantiniyye, Istanbul, Islambol, Dersaadet, and Deraliye.

[DuQuense]

The south most city in my Morrocco. Where the Atlas mountians meet the Sahara. About 800 Miles south of Tangeirs and 800 miles Desert miles north of Roma de Sud