The Afrika Korps takes Palestine

[jmc247]

There has been a big push by revisionist historians in Germany in recient years to argue that Rommel wanted to take the Final Solution to Palestine. The notion has made it into recient books and even TV shows in Germany.


'Chivalrous' Rommel wanted to bring Holocaust to Middle East

Erwin Rommel's reputation as one of Nazi Germany's few chivalrous generals has been blackened by a new documentary film which depicts the legendary "Desert Fox" as an unscrupulous commander who spearheaded Hitler's attempts to take the Holocaust to the Middle East.

Rommel, the head of the German Afrika Korps who won fame for his initial successes against the British in North Africa in 1942, was widely respected during and after the Second World War. Churchill once referred to him in parliament as a "great general".

Defeated by General Bernard Montgomery's "Desert Rats" at the battle of El Alamein in Egypt the same year, Field Marshal Rommel once claimed that his military campaign against the British was a chivalrous affair and the nearest thing to "war without hate".

However, a new two-part documentary series being broadcast on Germany's ZDF television channel provides evidence that Rommel played a key role in the Nazis' drive to invade Palestine and exterminate the Jews of the Middle East.

The historian Jörg Müllner, who made the film Rommel's War with co-author Jean-Christoph Caron, yesterday dismissed as a "myth" the notion that Rommel fought a clean war in the desert. "With his victories, he was simply preparing the way for the Nazi extermination machine," he added.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/chivalrous-rommel-wanted-to-bring-holocaust-to-middle-east-450304.html


Now, I personally consider this to be a BS attempt for anti-war Germans to turn Rommel who is still a military hero to many Germans into a Himmler like figure. The reality is that Rommel fought mostly successfully to keep the SS out of Africa and according to most sources only learned about the Final Solution in late 43 early 44 after returning from Africa and recovering from his illness and was not the least bit happy to learn fellow Germans were mass killing innocent people.

However, had the Afrika Korps managed to remove the UK's hold on Palestine in Rommel's drive to Iraq leaving a security vacuum I do wonder what would have happened. I suspect there would have been mass killings of Jews, but by locals not by Germans and civil war in Palestine. As for who wins I suspect that will be up to how big a resistance the Jewish population of Palestine put up against the Afrika Korps. If they blew their weapons and manpower fighting a futile battle against the Germans while the Arabs watch and wait the local Jewish population loses badly. If not then they have a shot of not being killed off or forced into slavery.

With the fight going badly in Russia I don't see Himmler or Hitler sending SS divisions to the area to help the Arabs. But, other Arab states like the new German friendly Egypt might send forces to the area. If that happens the Jewish population loses as they didn't have the numbers or the support that they had by the 1948 war.

[Shogo]

Rommel would have certainly intervened in order to attempt any kind of massacre of the Jews in Palestine.

It goes against everything we know about him and the people responsible for this so called documentary are patently retarded.

[Meadow]

Rommel would have certainly intervened in order to attempt any kind of massacre of the Jews in Palestine.

It goes against everything we know about him and the people responsible for this so called documentary are patently retarded.

Ah, but they'll probably pull the old 'but this is NEW evidence that CHANGES what we know about him' trick, before being imprisoned for fraud when it is revealed that the so-called 'evidence' is little more than a series of papier maché models of barnyard animals.

[altamiro]

He might not have aimed to conquer Palestine specifically to implement Final Solution there - but it would have been too large a temptation for Himmler to let it slip. Unless Rommel was in better graces with Hitler than Himmler (which he wasn't), he would be simply shunted aside, transferred to another theatre of war and then told to simply concentrate on his task on hand or else.

[Jello_Biafra]

Hitler's genocidal ambitions were clear to everyone well before the war began. Regardless of his own feelings on the subject, Rommel was still aiding and abetting the Nazis' genocidal aims. You can't tell me he was simply unaware of this. The Final Solution was only the final act of the Holocaust.

[jmc247]

Hitler's genocidal ambitions were clear to everyone well before the war began. Regardless of his own feelings on the subject, Rommel was still aiding and abetting the Nazis' genocidal aims. You can't tell me he was simply unaware of this. The Final Solution was only the final act of the Holocaust.

huh?

Rommel certainly knew the Nazi regime was anti semitic he sent a letter to Nazi High Command in 1937 telling them "This business with the Jews has got to stop" and in 1940 he personally asked Hitler to reinstate Jewish soldiers and officers who had been fired a request that went nowhere. Its clear when you read the Rommel Papers (mostly his own papers) and interviews with his trusted allies and family he did not know until quite late in the war that the regime was genocidal.

Alot of that has to do with the fact in early part of the war when say he was moving through France in 1940 there wasn't the mass execution of civilians (Jews or others) as it was mainly the army leading the charge, by the time the SS entered to do their dirty work he was long gone from France. Then he spent much of 1941 to 1943 fighting in Africa or in hospitals for various ailments for being in the desert too long.

By the time he was healthy again and back in Germany in late 1943 he starts being told by his sources (most evidence points to his sources being fellow high ranking officers who have been fighting in the Eastern Front) that the Waffen SS has been organizing horrific mass killings.

Now the SS as we know is run by Himmler and Rommel at this point knows Hitler's mental health is deteriorating (he is becoming demented) so he is unsure for awhile according to most sources if Hitler is in on this thing. By early 1944 he got his confirmation on that and also managed to get some idea as to the scope of the killings that were going on. Its at this point in Rommel's notes and discussions with other generals he starts supporting various ideas (all high treason) to end Nazi rule without giving Germany up to Stalin someone he considered as evil as Himmler.

I know its hard for many today to believe that so many Germans were so blind and many like you don't believe it, but none of us has lived in a true totalitarian state where the state controls everything that is reported and people are afraid for their lives to pass on information that could get them killed.

Erwin Rommel's son served as mayor of Stuttgart for two decades and in 1990 was awarded by the Queen of England the prestigious title of Commander of the Order of the British Empire for improving German and English relations. However, he very well could have ended up a war criminal as he planned on signing up for the Waffen SS in late 1943, but his father absolutely refused him.

This discussion between Manfred Rommel and his father below from the Rommel Papers will hopefully give you a better idea of what your average (well Manfred was actually above average and had better contacts then your average German) knew about what was going on. It also provides insight into what Rommel himself knew.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/Misc/scan0002.jpg

[BlairWitch749]

Rommel was someone who was an extremely distinguished person, he rode his men hard, but he stayed in bounds. Treatment of POW's in the africa corps was above reproach; and he was quite outspoken against what the party hatchetmen where doing both to the jews AND to the church. The german officer corps of the 33-45 period had a lot of the worst slime of hummanity in it (People like Schoerner) but Rommel was one of the true "decent" Germans caught up in the horrors of what Hitler turned the country into

[grdja83]

How could have they ever gotten into Palestine? They would have to crush British in Egypt completely, capture Alexandria and Cairo, secure crossing of Suez and cross the Sinai.

But on other hand, if Nazis somehow did win all that and occupy Palestine it is without any doubts that SS would march in and start doing that thing they so much liked doing. "Squishing Zionists in their heart", no way Nazis would pass over that opportunity.

And still leaves Rommel with much cleaner hands than most of commanders from East Front, if he remains personally uninvolved.

[BlairWitch749]

How could have they ever gotten into Palestine? They would have to crush British in Egypt completely, capture Alexandria and Cairo, secure crossing of Suez and cross the Sinai.

But on other hand, if Nazis somehow did win all that and occupy Palestine it is without any doubts that SS would march in and start doing that thing they so much liked doing. "Squishing Zionists in their heart", no way Nazis would pass over that opportunity.

And still leaves Rommel with much cleaner hands than most of commanders from East Front, if he remains personally uninvolved.

Africa is not Germany's theater, they had a taskforce and where guests of the Italians. Hitler might want to send SS detachments to go ethnically cleanse Palestine; but that would only happen if Benny the moose wanted to play which isn't assured

[grdja83]

Musolini didn't have much problems with Italian Jews being "processed"; I don't think he will shed a tear for Jews of Palestine, if Germans pay all expenses ofc.

[Japhy]

Honestly if the Germans were somehow able to make it to Palestine, and I doubt that they could, I don't see any way how if Berlin wants to send Einzatgruppen to Palestine Rommel is in a position to stop them if he opposes it or not.

That said he has to breakthough at El Al, across the Delta, Through Cairo and Alexandria, Across Suez, and across the Sinai and the Negev for it to be an issue, and I doubt that when he was thinking of pushing past El Al, he was thinking it was going to be to kill the Jews.

It's just that he was the Following Orders type and didn't think about the issue. How much blood goes on his hands for that is a topic that will always be debatable with him due to his legend.

[grdja83]

That said he has to breakthough at El Al, across the Delta, Through Cairo and Alexandria, Across Suez, and across the Sinai and the Negev for it to be an issue, and I doubt that when he was thinking of pushing past El Al, he was thinking it was going to be to kill the Jews.

There are not only AH.com TLs but real published books of respectable SF authors where Rommel manages to get all the way to Caucasus, by '42 to add; and the Soviets get crushed in a HoI2 like mega pincer movement.
(Yes Philip K Dick, "Man In High Castle". Yes he is extremely respected SF author with more high budget movies made on his books than all other "Great Ones" together)

[jmc247]

Honestly if the Germans were somehow able to make it to Palestine, and I doubt that they could, I don't see any way how if Berlin wants to send Einzatgruppen to Palestine Rommel is in a position to stop them if he opposes it or not.

That said he has to breakthough at El Al, across the Delta, Through Cairo and Alexandria, Across Suez, and across the Sinai and the Negev for it to be an issue, and I doubt that when he was thinking of pushing past El Al, he was thinking it was going to be to kill the Jews.

It's just that he was the Following Orders type and didn't think about the issue. How much blood goes on his hands for that is a topic that will always be debatable with him due to his legend


I wouldn't call Rommel the following orders type as you can see below. The only time Jews ever even came up in Rommel's many papers on his battle in Africa was him refusing what he considered outrageous orders to kill captured Jewish Allied POWs.


The Afrika Korps were never accused of any war crimes, and Rommel himself referred to the fighting in North Africa as Krieg ohne Hass—war without hate. Numerous examples exist of Rommel's chivalry towards Allied POWs, such as his defiance of Hitler's infamous Commando Order following the capture of Lt. Roy Woodridge and Lt. George Lane as part of Operation Fortitude.

He also refused to comply with Hitler's order to execute Jewish POWs.

During Rommel's time in France, Hitler ordered him to deport the country's Jewish population; Rommel disobeyed. Several times he wrote letters protesting against the treatment of the Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel


As of November 1942 he was voted by Gallup's world poll the most able general of the war, just imagine what they would have thought of him in Germany if he took Egypt. Now in 1944 in France at a time he had far less lets call it street cred with the German High Command he still managed to stop Waffen SS units from killing French civilians by threatening to resign. I would think a threat to resign from Rommel if he took Egypt would be enough to remove the SS from Palestine at least until Rommel was busy far away fighting the Russians in the Caucasus.

[grdja83]

Yes it is all silly revisionism. But you can make a Devil's Advocate argument for it. Fact is that Rommel was a rather decent person, especially for someone in his place. And that Desert War was incomparably "clean" compared to rest of WWII on land.

But too often has it been used (in ignorance or malign intent I don't know) by "history" pop documentaries to white wash all of Wermacht and place all the blame for nasty stuff on SS. Its stupid but its done; hell the "squeaky clean Wermacht, bad evil SS" is believed in by a huge ammount of people in 'Murka.

But falsifying history and demonizing Rommel won't change anything; it would come 40 years to late. Nationalism everywhere has elements that lean right enough that siegrunnen and black uniforms start looking oh so attractive. And that is on top of huge neonazi movement and holocaust deniers that plague American culture.

And its not just USA. Most of former WarPac countries (now all proud democratic EU members, Dubya's New Europe) have gone so far in hating communism that they all have extreme far right groups and political parties doing rather well.

[jmc247]

Yes it is all silly revisionism. But you can make a Devil's Advocate argument for it. Fact is that Rommel was a rather decent person, especially for someone in his place. And that Desert War was incomparably "clean" compared to rest of WWII on land.

But too often has it been used (in ignorance or malign intent I don't know) by "history" pop documentaries to white wash all of Wermacht and place all the blame for nasty stuff on SS. Its stupid but its done; hell the "squeaky clean Wermacht, bad evil SS" is believed in by a huge ammount of people in 'Murka.

Actually I think the Wehrmacht have been black washed if anything since the Cold War ended. Its good and acceptable now to show teenage German Army conscripts being scalped or beaten to death by U.S. soldiers in a big budget Hollywood film... because 'they are Nazi's'. Few Americans today even know there is a difference between the German Army, the SS and the Waffen SS. They are all just genocidal Nazis to them.

I personally know a German Wehrmacht soldier very well who still lives who fought in the battle of Stalingrad. He is one of the toughest men I have ever met. His unit never rounded up and executed POWs or civilians. He heard of such things happening, but in three years fighting never saw German troops executing civilians and I believe him. He did see German soldiers shooting Red Army troops that he believes should have been taken as POWs one time.

He was an apolitical teen and was drafted. His brother was strongly and openly anti Nazi so much so he got in trouble with the SS and almost was taken away. He was drafted as well and ended up being captured by the Soviet's and died in the 1950s in a Soviet slave labor camp.

The brother who survived was saved by U.S. troops who refused to turn them over when the Soviet's were rounding up German soldiers to put on trains for their slave labor camps in Siberia. So with nothing left he came to America after the war. He put up with a life time of abuse in the U.S. from people calling him a Nazi and a Jew killer for being conscripted in the German Army and forced to fight in a complete hell hole and he was given summer attire during the Russian winter and nearly froze to death.

If you are looking for people whose actions before, during and after the war have been white washed you should take a look at the NKVD and the Red Army.

[freodhoric]

Musolini didn't have much problems with Italian Jews being "processed"; I don't think he will shed a tear for Jews of Palestine, if Germans pay all expenses ofc.
AFAIK, no Italian Jews were rounded up until after Italy surrendered. Further, they didn't even allow deportations from Italian occupied areas.

[Typo]

Actually I think the Wehrmacht have been black washed if anything since the Cold War ended. Its good and acceptable now to show teenage German Army conscripts being scalped or beaten to death by U.S. soldiers in a big budget Hollywood film... because 'they are Nazi's'. Few Americans today even know there is a difference between the German Army, the SS and the Waffen SS. They are all just genocidal Nazis to them.
They can't be "black washed" if they were guilty of a incredible large amount of war crimes in the first placeI personally know a German Wehrmacht soldier very well who still lives who fought in the battle of Stalingrad. He is one of the toughest men I have ever met. His unit never rounded up and executed POWs or civilians. He heard of such things happening, but in three years fighting never saw German troops executing civilians and I believe him. He did see German soldiers shooting Red Army troops that he believes should have been taken as POWs one time.

He was an apolitical teen and was drafted. His brother was strongly and openly anti Nazi so much so he got in trouble with the SS and almost was taken away. He was drafted as well and ended up being captured by the Soviet's and died in the 1950s in a Soviet slave labor camp.

The brother who survived was saved by U.S. troops who refused to turn them over when the Soviet's were rounding up German soldiers to put on trains for their slave labor camps in Siberia. So with nothing left he came to America after the war. He put up with a life time of abuse in the U.S. from people calling him a Nazi and a Jew killer for being conscripted in the German Army and forced to fight in a complete hell hole and he was given summer attire during the Russian winter and nearly froze to death.

Cherry-Picking much?If you are looking for people whose actions before, during and after the war have been white washed you should take a look at the NKVD and the Red Army. I feel this is gonna turn into a Tu quoque

[ranoncles]

It seems a number of associated issues have been raised.
One of them being the reputation of the Wehrmacht. And as always, the truth lies in the middle but leaning towards the `Nazi butchers´side of the equation.
As early as 1939, Wehrmacht soldiers were committing atrocities and helping the SS in mass razzia´s and executions. At the same time, German officers were protesting this, most notably von Blaskowitz.

By 1940, German soldiers were killing French colonial POW´s who had the temerity to fight hard. And by 1941, all restraints had been loosened in Russia.

The only exception being Africa, partly because Rommel seems to have instilled discipline and because it mostly was a war between armies with little civilian interaction. Mostly unchallenged academic research has made it clear that (with a few notable exceptions), the Wehrmacht in general both supported atrocties (by rounding up civilians for processing by the SS) and committed them themselves.

Could the Africa Corps have taken Palestina? Only a fool would argue otherwise. Certainly it would have taken more resources but the British were hard pressed to defeat 3 run down German divisions supported by the Italians as it was. Had the resources poured into Tunesia been given to Rommel (and Malta neutralized etc.) for example, he could very well have won. And the British were ready to abandon Egypt if El Alamein was overrun....

What then for the Jews living in the region? Certainly Himmler would have loved to get his hands on them and he would have spared no expenses in men or resources to do so, even if that wasn't the most efficient way of making use of his resources. It seems equally certain that Rommel would have opposed this, given their earlier actions. Himmler was unwilling to push the issue for Libya but what would he have done regarding Palestina, the "birthnest" of the Jews, so to speak?

The answer lies with the Italians. The Med was the Italian sphere of influence and the Italians wouldn't have been interested in any genocidal butchery, as proven OTL. With Rommel and the Italians succesful, the Germans would have little leverage over them to push throught an anti-Jew program.

[Frentanus]

The problem is: it is true that the Regio Esercito protected jews in occupied areas. But Egypt would be occupied by both german and italian soldiers. Like in greece, germans (and bulgarians were happy to help them) murdered the jews in the lands they occupied (athens, thessalonika) even if italians protected the jews in the south.
And if egypt becomes an axis puppet (mussolini once said this was the plan), it is likely that it would be controlled by germans, and not italian. So we could have a new croatia-like country, eager to please germans letting them kill its jews.
The same thing could happen in Palestine. Rommel could do little to avoid this, he was a soldier, not a politician.

[jmc247]

They can't be "black washed" if they were guilty of a incredible large amount of war crimes in the first place

I am well aware of the reality of what many German soldiers did. Especially those who went through the 1930s Hitler Youth brainwashing program.

Does that mean every Wehrmacht soldier or even most Wehrmacht soldiers executed civilians? I don't at all believe that is the case so depicting it as if it was would be black washing them.

[Typo]

I am well aware of the reality of what many German soldiers did. Especially those who went through the 1930s Hitler Youth brainwashing program.

Does that mean every Wehrmacht soldier or even most Wehrmacht soldiers executed civilians? I don't at all believe that is the case so depicting it as if it was would be black washing them.No, similarly, not every SS or Waffan-SS man directly commited attrocities, but that does not excuse the organization as a whole in any of the cases

[jmc247]

No, similarly, not every SS or Waffan-SS man directly commited attrocities, but that does not excuse the organization as a whole in any of the cases

I was talking about the Wehrmacht and not their organization the men who made it up and making the point to another poster it is possible to black wash these men by depicting them all as genocidal killers.

[Typo]

I was talking about the Wehrmacht and not their organization the men who made it up and making the point to another poster it is possible to black wash these men by depicting them all as genocidal killers.I don't think anyone is trying to depict every last German soldier as genocidal killers

[Bearcat]

No, Rommel was not the sort to do something like this. He would have refused these orders, as he had refused others of the sort.

BUT... that would have quickly led to his 'recall', to 'build up our defenses in western Europe'. Then Hitler and Himmler install some reliable lackey in Palestine. The Jews are rounded up and put behind wire. The Germans use some of the local Arab groups who have animosity towards the Jews from the late 1930s uprising to help them. Of course, its quite possible that those same Arabs end up in the same camps later. In any event, within a few months, Arab partisans will also be fighting the Germans, as like the Ukrainians they discover the Nazis are no liberators.

The Final Solution was an expression of Hitler's will. He is going to extend it wherever he can, and Rommel has no power to stop him.

Thank God for the sake of BOTH Jews and Arabs he did not get the chance.

[jmc247]

I don't think anyone is trying to depict every last German soldier as genocidal killers

Then what was the message of showing Jewish U.S. soldiers in a big budget Hollywood film scalping dozens of "Nazis" when they were scalping teenage German soldiers and not even Waffen SS.

[Typo]

Then what was the message of showing Jewish U.S. soldiers in a big budget Hollywood film scalping dozens of "Nazis" when they were scalping teenage German soldiers and not even Waffen SS.That Hollywood splatters it's movies with casual violence all the time like an over opinionated sociopath?

[jmc247]

No, Rommel was not the sort to do something like this. He would have refused these orders, as he had refused others of the sort.

BUT... that would have quickly led to his 'recall', to 'build up our defenses in western Europe'. Then Hitler and Himmler install some reliable lackey in Palestine. The Jews are rounded up and put behind wire. The Germans use some of the local Arab groups who have animosity towards the Jews from the late 1930s uprising to help them. Of course, its quite possible that those same Arabs end up in the same camps later. In any event, within a few months, Arab partisans will also be fighting the Germans, as like the Ukrainians they discover the Nazis are no liberators.

The Final Solution was an expression of Hitler's will. He is going to extend it wherever he can, and Rommel has no power to stop him.

Thank God for the sake of BOTH Jews and Arabs he did not get the chance.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Amin Al Husseini was very much genocidal and worked closely with Hitler.

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/images/Husseini-Hilter-Berlin.jpg

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/images/7-Husseini-soldier_jpg_jpg_jpg.jpg

Amin Al Husseini seen inspecting his Hanzar Division made up exclusively of Muslims, mostly from the Crotia/Bosnia/Serbia region. They actively lead the genocide against Serbs, Serbian Jews and Gypsies

[jmc247]

That Hollywood splatters it's movies with casual violence all the time like an over opinionated sociopath?

You make a good point there.

How could have they ever gotten into Palestine? They would have to crush British in Egypt completely, capture Alexandria and Cairo, secure crossing of Suez and cross the Sinai.


It certainly wasn't very likely to happen with Hitler dividing his resources and manpower in a two front war with the vast majority of it going to Russia. Now, if he waited until 1942 to invade Russia and used his military in 1941 to take Malta and say triple the size of the Afrika Korps all bets are off as to what would have happened.

After Rommel took Tobruk there was a no confidence vote against Churchill in parliment which he survived. Rommel's goal in taking Egypt and if neccesary Iraq wasn't mainly to hold them as he didn't think he could with the forces he had. He was hoping that it lead to another no confidence vote against Churchill and that he would have been replaced with someone willing to have a armistice with Germany in exchange for getting their colonies back. With England out of the war the U.S. then would have decided to focus their resorces on fighting Japan.

His plan then was to move his forces unhindered by the British to the Caucasus.

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

Hitler's genocidal ambitions were clear to everyone well before the war began. Regardless of his own feelings on the subject, Rommel was still aiding and abetting the Nazis' genocidal aims. You can't tell me he was simply unaware of this. The Final Solution was only the final act of the Holocaust.
Yes, the real "revisionism" is that making Rommel out to be some kind of hero. He was a Nazi general--nothing less, nothing more.

The relative lack of atrocities in Africa came from the fact that Rommel was fighting "fellow Aryan" Brits rather than "untermensch" Russians or other Slavs. Wake up.

[grdja83]

"Inglorious Bastards" is another Tarantino murder porn movie.


Take a look at what Discovery or History Channel or National Geographic say about WWII. "Poor noble Wermacht fighting a desperate battle against Soviet hordes". I swear, in a lot of those "documentaries" they keep sympathizing with Germans and mourning their defeats. And all the "documentaries" about Nazi A-bombs, about supertanks, about all the wonderful jets that would have certainly won the war (:P).

[jmc247]

Yes, the real "revisionism" is that making Rommel out to be some kind of hero. He was a Nazi general--nothing less, nothing more.

Rommel even in 1941 would have taken umbridge to being called a National Socialist. He considered himself an apolitical soldier who was willing to fight for Germany regardless of the government in power at least until 1944 after it became clear to him that his government was killing millions of innocent people.


In the summer of 1941, two groups of German and British soldiers met deep in the Libyan desert. Instead of shooting at each other, the enemies chatted and exchanged cigarettes before going their separate ways. What made the encounter all the more remarkable was that Erwin Rommel, the German commander in North Africa, was among them.

Mr Schneider, now 86, said: "The common soldiers did not act out of hate. When we met the English soldiers in the desert that time, we were far, far from anywhere. There was no reason to shoot. We swapped cigarettes and I talked with the English officers. But there were also times when we were shocked by the enemy.

"Rommel enjoyed touring the front lines. We would go deep into the desert to explore. One time we came across 14 German soldiers who seemed asleep. When we got closer we saw each had his throat cut. Nearby we found a kukri – the knife of the British Gurkha soldiers. I still have that knife."

The extent to which the ferocity of a war fought by young men has been replaced by comradeship among former enemies was underlined this weekend when Mr Schneider met five former Desert Rats, including an ambulance driver who accidentally drove into a German tank position while it was being inspected by Rommel and was promptly sent back to his lines by the field marshal with Mr Schneider at his side. "We are now friends, very good friends," he said. "I was once a German soldier and they were English soldiers but now we find it difficult to understand why we had to fight against each other. Rommel was always first a soldier. We did not forget that we were fighting fellow human beings."

Mr Schneider said: "When the propaganda photographs were taken of our unit, they would drape Swastika flags over the vehicles. When the cameramen went away, Rommel would order the Swastikas to be taken away. He didn't like Nazi insignia and took it off. He said, 'I am a German soldier'."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/rudolf-schneider-i-was-rommels-driver-1706924.html


If you agree or not that one could fight for Germany during WW2 without being a Nazi is certainly an issue of long standing debate. But, even Churchill would have said and basically did say there were loyal German soldiers who were not neccesarily Nazis.

[Bearcat]

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Amin Al Husseini was very much genocidal and worked closely with Hitler.

Amin Al Husseini seen inspecting his Hanzar Division made up exclusively of Muslims, mostly from the Crotia/Bosnia/Serbia region. They actively lead the genocide against Serbs, Serbian Jews and Gypsies

The Mufti is indicative of the worst elements in Palestine. He had a band of very fascist-leaning supporters.

Note however: he was hardly representative of the Palestinians as a whole. He became Mufti through british machinations. there was an election for the position. The British were allowed to choose any one of the top three vote-getters. they had already decided it was Amin Al-Husseini's 'turn'.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians didn't agree. He came in fourth.

No problem: the Brits browbeat one of the top three to 'withdraw', and proclaimed the A-hole the winner.

ITTL, he and his merry men will cooperate fully with the SS. By three months later, there will be a Palestinian Arab resistance fighting with the remnants of free Jews to expel the Nazis.

[oudi14]

Just for a minute, let us forget how ASB the scenario might be. If the Afrika Corps did somehow reach Palestine, the inhabitants would not act anything like the milqutoast European Jewry did, and walk quietly to the gas chambers. The Sabras would put up a bloddy resistance, and many a German soldier would rue coming up against the Palmach. Rommel would win on the battlefield if it even came to any sort of pitched battle, but it would be mostly bloody guerilla warfare, followed by reprisals against civillians; an altogether unpleasant affair.

[jmc247]

Just for a minute, let us forget how ASB the scenario might be. If the Afrika Corps did somehow reach Palestine, the inhabitants would not act anything like the milqutoast European Jewry did, and walk quietly to the gas chambers. The Sabras would put up a bloddy resistance, and many a German soldier would rue coming up against the Palmach. Rommel would win on the battlefield if it even came to any sort of pitched battle, but it would be mostly bloody guerilla warfare, followed by reprisals against civillians; an altogether unpleasant affair.

No doubt the Jews in Palestine would put up a guerilla war to protect their lives and the lives of their families, but I don't see it going down quite how you listed.

First Rommel had three main goals in his campaign; take Egypt, take Iraq, and the Caucasus.

If Rommel makes it to Palestine I don't see him staying there long and letting UK forces in Iraq prepare themselves. If he is having fuel problems at longest I see him waiting is for those to be resolved.

Hitler and Himmler knew very well Rommel's position on the Jews and killing civilians and would have waited until he had left to send any SS units there. They did something similar in Tunisia in that they slipped in an SS unit while Rommel was busy off fighting in Egypt.

So, the way I see it the local Jews would be prepared to fight a guerilla war against the Afrika Korps and quickly figure out that it isn't needed. Then the Afrika Korps leaves for Iraq and soon thereafter Amin Al Husseini along with the SS enter the scene and the guerilla war starts.

[Tobit]

Wasn't Rommel in command of the bodyguard division of Hitler from 1936-1940. It is pretty clear the two knew each other very well. I don't think Rommel could possibly disagree with Hitler's genocide.

[miketr]

By 1940, German soldiers were killing French colonial POW´s who had the temerity to fight hard. And by 1941, all restraints had been loosened in Russia.



In war bad things happen. By today's standards the US Army of WW2 was a bunch of butchering monsters. Trying to surrender as an individual in combat is always a dicey thing for example. This said... as time went by the German Army got nastier and nastier. It started in Poland when they didn't punish war crimes. Hitlers order for Russia made it worse and the result was peoples war with rivers and rivers of blood.

As to Rommel he did try to stay with in the rules and since N Africa was in effect his private little war he was able to do so there. It also helped there weren't many civilians around either.

Michael

[Chris S]

......

I personally know a German Wehrmacht soldier very well who still lives who fought in the battle of Stalingrad. He is one of the toughest men I have ever met. His unit never rounded up and executed POWs or civilians. He heard of such things happening, but in three years fighting never saw German troops executing civilians and I believe him. He did see German soldiers shooting Red Army troops that he believes should have been taken as POWs one time.

He was an apolitical teen and was drafted. His brother was strongly and openly anti Nazi so much so he got in trouble with the SS and almost was taken away. He was drafted as well and ended up being captured by the Soviet's and died in the 1950s in a Soviet slave labor camp.....

Oh yeah, where have I heard that before?

Doesn't anybody else find it odd how many ex-Wehrmacht soldiers just happened to have "never seen anything" and "never done anything" and were among those who were apolitical or actively (sometimes passively) opposed to Hitler and the Nazis?

If their "claims" to interviewers, average joes and tv documentaries are anything to go by the history that we all know is really alternate history and what really happened was that the Nazis were overthrown in a popular revolution in 1940 and the guys who replaced them just couldn't be bothered to change the symbols.

Here's a question I would love to see answered: If everybody only "hears" of bad things happening elsewhere in their organization and nobody ever does it, then how did those bad things happen?

I suppose the next logical step with those ex-soldiers will be claim that any and all deaths were in fact carried out by the vicious, sub-human NKVD and Red Army and they were actually there to protect the civilians. Pffft.

I've encountered enough folks who wish to forget the truth (as well as just plain ol' liars) to know that unless there is massive supporting evidence to back up their claims (or unless I personally witnessed it myself) then it should be taken with massive doses of salt. If we take everything that your ex-Wehrmacht acquaintance said at face value then not only did he not do or see anything bad (save for this one time in 3 years when a group of Red Army soldiers were shot who should have been taken prisoner) but nobody else in his unit or those units that interacted and saw on a regular basis did anything bad either (otherwise he would probably have seen them).

[jmc247]

Oh yeah, where have I heard that before?

Doesn't anybody else find it odd how many ex-Wehrmacht soldiers just happened to have "never seen anything" and "never done anything" and were among those who were apolitical or actively (sometimes passively) opposed to Hitler and the Nazis?

If their "claims" to interviewers, average joes and tv documentaries are anything to go by the history that we all know is really alternate history and what really happened was that the Nazis were overthrown in a popular revolution in 1940 and the guys who replaced them just couldn't be bothered to change the symbols.

Here's a question I would love to see answered: If everybody only "hears" of bad things happening elsewhere in their organization and nobody ever does it, then how did those bad things happen?

I suppose the next logical step with those ex-soldiers will be claim that any and all deaths were in fact carried out by the vicious, sub-human NKVD and Red Army and they were actually there to protect the civilians. Pffft.

I've encountered enough folks who wish to forget the truth (as well as just plain ol' liars) to know that unless there is massive supporting evidence to back up their claims (or unless I personally witnessed it myself) then it should be taken with massive doses of salt. If we take everything that your ex-Wehrmacht acquaintance said at face value then not only did he not do or see anything bad (save for this one time in 3 years when a group of Red Army soldiers were shot who should have been taken prisoner) but nobody else in his unit or those units that interacted and saw on a regular basis did anything bad either (otherwise he would probably have seen them).

No, he said he saw a lot of terrible things on the Eastern Front, but never Wehrmacht soldiers killing cilivians. He didn't answer in regard to the Waffen SS and what he saw from them. He only said the Waffen SS was sort of like the U.S. Marines without any rules or boundries.

[Chris S]

No, he said he saw a lot of terrible things on the Eastern Front, but never Wehrmacht soldiers killing cilivians. He didn't answer in regard to the Waffen SS and what he saw from them. He only said the Waffen SS was sort of like the U.S. Marines without any rules or boundries.

That's rather of insulting of him. I mean what did the US Marines ever do to him?

I still would only believe him as far as I could throw him though. What you've said has been repeated very often (in fact, far too often) by various ex-Wehrmacht soldiers in documentaries and whatnot for it to be believable considering the history that is known. Maybe he really was a good soldier, but it's hard to believe given how many claim to have been when the facts just can't fit if every single one of them was telling the truth. If more of them would actually tell the truth then perhaps the good soldiers could be believed. Worse, when people say things like this:

If you are looking for people whose actions before, during and after the war have been white washed you should take a look at the NKVD and the Red Army

it only makes me wonder if folks are really coming from ATLs and doing interviews about their time in the Wehrmacht and posting on sites like this considering that I can't recall how often I've heard or read about the "Red Army" and "rape" going together in almost any documentary or article on WWII nowadays (even in those cases where the Battle of Berlin had absolutely nothing to do with the article or documentary - such as a documentary on Stalingrad where at the end the presenter will then give a very quick overview of the rest of the war of which will basically consist of something like this: "and after the battle, the Red Army continued to push the Germans back until they took Berlin in a gigantic battle in 1945. Thousands of women and girls were then raped by the victorious Red Army." If that's whitewashing I would hate to see the Red Army blackwashed.).

[jmc247]

That's rather of insulting of him. I mean what did the US Marines ever do to him?

I still would only believe him as far as I could throw him though.

Believe him or not the man has a terminal illness and isn't long for this Earth. If there is a heaven or hell he will be judged for his actions not by you or I.

[Chris S]

Believe him or not the man has a terminal illness and isn't long for this Earth. If there is a heaven or hell he will be judged for his actions not by you or I.

Yup, yup. I'm not judging him any more than you (unless you've believed every word he said and don't wonder about what he doesn't want to talk about). I've simply pointed out that I wouldn't take his word at face value (whether or not he has a terminal illness is irrelevant to the veracity of his claims) mainly because that kind of story has been repeated far too many times, by far too many other veterans from the Wehrmacht for all of them to be telling the truth.

Look, I had a relative who fought in WWII, Korea and Suez. He was very friendly and a very good artist (and he's already passed now, God rest his soul). However just because he fought in those 3 conflicts I don't necessarily believe everything he ever said about them (which really wasn't much since he hated talking about and usually much preferred to discuss paintings or birds or better yet paintings of birds :D). Was he tough? I dunno, I wouldn't have said so because of the campaigns he fought and he was rather mild mannered when I knew him. Was he always truthful? Oh hell no. I can well recall him claiming not to have been smoking when his daughter would ask him on the suspicion that he was (and he had). Most of us also suspect he's had at least one illegitimate child given his adventures (and there are others on this board who had relatives whom they know for sure had children they didn't know about until much later). But we loved him for who he was, faults and all and weren't about to make excuses for him. He did what he did (whatever it was in war and peace) and if I was asked I would never vouch for his actions in those instances where I wasn't there or where there wasn't undeniable proof. Simply because I wouldn't have known and to even hint at vouching for him would just be folly considering I couldn't really do so and because I might well be setting myself up for some red-faced moments should anything ever come out which would prove that he wasn't a saint.

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

"and after the battle, the Red Army continued to push the Germans back until they took Berlin in a gigantic battle in 1945. Thousands of women and girls were then raped by the victorious Red Army." If that's whitewashing I would hate to see the Red Army blackwashed.).

Ahem... what did the German army do for the prior four years? (And I am only talking about to the Gentile Slavs, not even the Jews of Eastern Europe.)

[Cook]

Just to chime in, there are a lot of well documented cases of war crimes and atrocities by the Wehrmacht in Italy under Kesselring.

Ironically, in Italy it was ‘Smiling Albert’ that was advocating harsher measures while Wolf, the SS security commander for Italy, was ordering restraint.

[TyranicusMaximus]

I'd just like to chime in quickly.

There were how many soldiers in the Wehrmacht?

It's certainly more than likely that a German soldier wouldn't have seen German atrocities. Doesn't excuse the organization as a whole, certainly not. Just statistical likelihood.

At the very least, and that's discounting the documented atrocities carried out by Wehrmacht units, the infrastructure that was used in the Holocaust and the atrocities in the Soviet Union, was run by the Wehrmacht, and German troops did round up civilians under orders from the Gestapo and other groups.

[Chris S]

Just to chime in, there are a lot of well documented cases of war crimes and atrocities by the Wehrmacht in Italy under Kesselring.

Ironically, in Italy it was ‘Smiling Albert’ that was advocating harsher measures while Wolf, the SS security commander for Italy, was ordering restraint.

Well a lot of things happened and a lot of people weren't involved. The Werhmacht wasn't filled entirely with good guys (nor was it filled entirely with bad guys) and the SS wasn't filled entirely with bad guys (but it certainly wasn't filled with good guys who you would want to have a beer with and feel safe with walking along dark alleys). Same applies to just about every other armed group involved in the war.

And stranger things have happened. Even now we've apparently been visited by space tourists (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=182714) taking pictures of Jerusalem. :eek:

[Chris S]

I'd just like to chime in quickly.

There were how many soldiers in the Wehrmacht?

It's certainly more than likely that a German soldier wouldn't have seen German atrocities. Doesn't excuse the organization as a whole, certainly not. Just statistical likelihood.

At the very least, and that's discounting the documented atrocities carried out by Wehrmacht units, the infrastructure that was used in the Holocaust and the atrocities in the Soviet Union, was run by the Wehrmacht, and German troops did round up civilians under orders from the Gestapo and other groups.

It certainly is, but really how many times have you heard German soldiers in documentaries saying they didn't partake in or see any atrocities? How statistically likely is it that so many would actually not have seen or done anything and also made it through the war and just happened to have been interviewed for documentaries or books or by folks such as jmc247? Either all the bad ones were killed or got kicked out into the Void or some of them are lying. As I said to jmc247, too many are saying that they were angels for it to be true and that as a result I now would not believe any of them at face value without further proof even if they may actually be telling the truth (which is quite possible in the case of the soldier jmc247 knows). In the case of Rommel for instance there seems to be a lot of supporting evidence as outlined by jmc247 - it's far too difficult to believe that Rommel was lying and managed to get everyone else he knew in on the act as opposed to the Rommel telling the truth. In other cases, without some other persons memoirs confirming their claims or without some official documents supporting their claims (like maybe that they refused to carry out a particular order) it's just now impossible to tell if the person is telling the truth or just hiding the truth because either they are ashamed or they know that people would look down on them if the told it (regardless of if they think they were right or wrong).

[Tobit]

It certainly is, but really how many times have you heard German soldiers in documentaries saying they didn't partake in or see any atrocities? How statistically likely is it that so many would actually not have seen or done anything and also made it through the war and just happened to have been interviewed for documentaries or books or by folks such as jmc247?

The statistical break down for Wermacht survivors is probably the same as the statistic of Russian soldiers who claim that they did not commit any rape. I read a book called Ivan's War the author interviewed many Russians and the vast majority of them claim they did not participate or even see any of the rape take place.

[jmc247]

It started in Poland when they didn't punish war crimes. Hitlers order for Russia made it worse and the result was peoples war with rivers and rivers of blood.

As to Rommel he did try to stay with in the rules and since N Africa was in effect his private little war he was able to do so there. It also helped there weren't many civilians around either.

Hitler would play a game of saying one thing to the German Army officers and generals and then another to the SS/Waffen SS officers and generals.

At the start of the war in Poland he gave your usual we must win and we will win speech to the leaders of the German Army then he gave a seperate speech to the SS officers.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/Misc/Hitler_Armenian_Quote.jpg

That said over time the task of Hitler's mass killings became too big for only the Waffen SS and the SS and they started getting the other branches of the German armed forces involved.


German officers 'knew of Holocaust'

During the Second World War, British intelligence secretly bugged the cells occupied by some of the most senior German army, navy and air force commanders who had been captured by the Allies.

The transcripts have only recently been made available to researchers and show that:

Senior Luftwaffe officers mused together at the end of 1943 that millions of Jews had already been killed.

General Dietrich von Choltitz, the German commander who defied Hitler's orders by not allowing Paris to be destroyed, admitted that he had been involved in killing Jews;

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel had been fully briefed about the 1944 attempt to kill the Nazi leader, and refused to betray the plotters.

The transcripts also point to closer links between Rommel and the plotters who attempted to kill Hitler in 1944. It was previously known that the conspirators asked Rommel whether he would take over if Hitler were no longer alive to run the Nazi state, but never told him of their plans to bomb the Führer.

However, a conversation involving General Heinrich Eberbach, who worked closely with Rommel in 1944, suggests Rommel had been fully told about the plans and kept them to himself.

http://news.scotsman.com/world/German-officers-knew-of-Holocaust.2685645.jp

[Chris S]

The statistical break down for Wermacht survivors is probably the same as the statistic of Russian soldiers who claim that they did not commit any rape. I read a book called Ivan's War the author interviewed many Russians and the vast majority of them claim they did not participate or even see any of the rape take place.

Yeah, but who would really believe those claims? After all some soldiers from all the armies involved in WWII (German, Soviet, American, British, Japanese, etc) were involved in rape, theft and murder. So the idea that so many of these soldiers in one of the most brutal theatres of the war were the shining examples of "see no evil" and/or didn't commit some of these acts themselves stretches credulity because someone must have done it. I can recall a documentary (will have to find the name again....I think it might have been War of the Century but I have my great doubts about that...that might just be the only name popping into my head at the mo..) where it basically established through interviews with Wehrmacht, Red Army, partisan and NKVD ex-members that civilians basically lived wretchedly as a result of all of them. Basically civilians sounded like they had to be wary of anybody toting a gun.

[jmc247]

Yeah, but who would really believe those claims? After all some soldiers from all the armies involved in WWII (German, Soviet, American, British, Japanese, etc) were involved in rape, theft and murder. So the idea that so many of these soldiers in one of the most brutal theatres of the war were the shining examples of "see no evil" and/or didn't commit some of these acts themselves stretches credulity because someone must have done it. I can recall a documentary (will have to find the name again....I think it might have been War of the Century but I have my great doubts about that...that might just be the only name popping into my head at the mo..) where it basically established through interviews with Wehrmacht, Red Army, partisan and NKVD ex-members that civilians basically lived wretchedly as a result of all of them. Basically civilians sounded like they had to be wary of anybody toting a gun.

Ever watch that episode of Hogan's Heroes where he gets Klink to sign up to fight on the Russian front? Maybe, Hogan was right all along that all the horror stories coming out Eastern Europe were concocted by the German and Russian officers so they could hang out and party and it would keep the other officers from wanting to serve there. :D Or not.

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

To strictly address the OP and nothing less/more: the German soldiers get a lot more hummus and shawarma in their diets! :D

[Chris S]

Ever watch that episode of Hogan's Heroes where he gets Klink to sign up to fight on the Russian front? Maybe, Hogan was right all along that all the horror stories coming out Eastern Europe were concocted by the German and Russian officers so they could hang out and party and it would keep the other officers from wanting to serve there. :D Or not.

Hmm....well between the German beer, Russian vodka, the ice-cream and various dishes involving rabbits, deer, pork, beef and cabbage.....and with the women....hmm...that might just be an angle a researcher should explore. :D

[ranoncles]

Wasn't Rommel in command of the bodyguard division of Hitler from 1936-1940. It is pretty clear the two knew each other very well. I don't think Rommel could possibly disagree with Hitler's genocide.

Hmm, this needs a bit of clarification methinks....

Hitler was a hugely popular politician in the 1930s. Not many people knew about his ultimate goals. And if you think that is fiction, how many people know the party program of their own political choice during an election today?

The army also loved Hitler because he restored their "tarnished" reputation and gave Germany its major power status back. And gave them lots of shiny new toys.

As for Rommel, he wasn't destined for high command as he wasn't a trained general staff officer or all that popular within the army bureacracy. He did have a reputation as an excellent front line battalion commander and he wrote a book on infantry tactics which Hitler liked. So Hitler appointed Rommel commander of the Fuhrerbegleit battalion (a composite army escort unit) and gave him a minor role in the Hitlerjugend as a trainer. This obviously gave Rommel's career a big boost and allowed him to request command of a panzer division in early 1940. The command of the escort unit was good for Rommel's career and it was a poke in the eye of the "generals" by Hitler who disliked the traditional high command and preferred self-made men of middle-class backgrounds.

However, no reputable scholar has ever suggested that Rommel was a Nazi and thus closely linked to Hitler. Just that he was very ambitious and knew how to grasp any opportunity to advance himself.

[jmc247]

However, no reputable scholar has ever suggested that Rommel was a Nazi and thus closely linked to Hitler. Just that he was very ambitious and knew how to grasp any opportunity to advance himself.

I agree with your term 'reputable scholar', but its important to point out since the Cold War a great many so called scholors in Germany have been trying to throw Rommel under the historical bus so to speak and turn the image of him into one of a genocidal Nazi dirt bag. They put up with Germans liking him during the Cold War because they wanted a military figure for German soldiers to emulate should the Soviet's decide to take West Germany. There is a reason why they named a base and a warship after him.

But, as I was saying with the end of the Cold War these scholars have beeing trying to toss under the bus the few war heroes Germans were allowed to have during the Cold War.

They have an exibit in Stuttgard arguing Rommel was a Nazi and loved Adolf Hitler to the very end.

Myth of 'humane' Nazi Erwin Rommel debunked

A new exhibition in Stuttgart calls into question the true nature of the man known as the "Desert Fox". "The Rommel Myth" strips away the legends that surround the man who faced off against Britain's Desert Rats in North Africa and who committed suicide after being implicated in a plot to kill Adolf Hitler, the Daily Mail reports.

A spokesman for the History House, the foundation which is staging the exhibition, said: "Rommel was a fabrication of Nazi propaganda."

He cited a diary entry by Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels in 1941 that said: "I would strongly advise that now, as soon as the battle for North Africa has been decided, Rommel be elevated to a kind of popular hero."

Germans have traditionally been taught that Rommel was a good man, surrounded by evil. But Gestapo documents in the exhibition paint a different picture.

They reveal that even as he was being led away by secret policeman he spoke of his devotion to Hitler. "I loved the Fuhrer and I love him still. I am innocent of any involvement in the assassination attempt,' he said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/3836479/Myth-of-humane-Nazi-Erwin-Rommel-debunked.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/3836479/Myth-of-humane-Nazi-Erwin-Rommel-debunked.html)


Rommel was a creation of Nazi propaganda? I guess I must have imagined hearing a recording in 1942 of Churchill calling Rommel a “skillful opponent” and “a great general".

As for Rommel supposedly professing his undying love for "The Fuhrer" as he was being dragged away by the Gestapo given the fact these thugs had the power to torture him to death and kill his entire family, blow up his house and have it end up on the radio the next day as an Allied air strike killed Rommel and his family I probably would have said the same thing in his shoes.

I suspect his quote to his family and a number of different army officers a few weeks earlier was a more accurate representation of his views on Adolf at the time. "after the 20th July plot Rommel commented to his family and various officers that 'Stauffenberg had bungled it and a front-line soldier would have finished Hitler off'" (The Rommel Papers Page 486).