ME7: 1899 Possible Great War

[Aussey]

Any scenarios?

[Aussey]

For anyone who needs *ideas*, here are reigning monarchs and their consorts:

Kingdom of Navarre and Asturias:
HM Queen Constance
Prince-Consort Joseph of Austria (Crown Prince)

Kingdom of Portugal:
HM Queen Constance
King-Consort Joseph of Austria (Crown Prince)

Imperial Empire of Japan:
HIM Emperor Meiji Mutsuhito

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland:
HM King Edward VII

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (claimant):
HM Queen Mary III (Archduchess of Habsburg Empire, Queen-Mother of Karelia)

Empire-Kingdom of Armenia-Trebizond:
HIM Empress Alexandra

Empire of All Russias:
HIM Czar Peter

Kingdom of New Granada:
King Carlos II

Viceroyalty of Peru: (Austral Confederation)
HE Viceroy Count Don Alvaro de Mendoza

Hellenic Kingdom of Macedonia:
HM Queen Marie
Prince-Consort Charles of Austria

Kingdom of the Hellenes:
King Edmund I

German Confederation:
Kaiser-Elect Wilhelm of Prussia

Empire of Prussia: (German Confederation)
HIM Kaiser Wilhelm

Oldenrurg Confederation of the Rhine: (German Confederation)
HM Kaiser Christian I

Grand Duchy of Danestan: (German Confederation)
Grand Duke Wilhelm (also Emperor of Prussia)

Consitutional Monarchy of Mauriafrica:
HM King Ricardo III

Habsburg Empire of Central Europe:
HIM Emperor Louis Joseph
Empress Maria of Bourbon-China

Empire of China and the Philippenes:
HIM Emperor Filipe

Kingdom of Karelia:
HM King John I
HM The Queen-Mother Mary of Austria

Empire of Persia:
HIM Shah Jahandar

Kingdom of Sviergestan:
HE Grand Vizier Saltan ibn Thor

Emirate of Norgestan:
HRH Emir Haakon ibn Ismail

[Glen]

You are missing the Kaiser of the German Confederation itself, which is a separate office from the Kaiser of Prussia.

[Aussey]

ok...put back into. I just realized...that no one has stated the Consorts of their nations except myself :eek:

[Glen]

ok...put back into. I just realized...that no one has stated the Consorts of their nations except myself :eek:

I'd drop the 'of Prussia' from the title. He may be the Prussian Kaiser's son, but they are not going to risk infuriating the Oldenburgers by emphasizing it.

[Glen]

King Carlos II's wife, Queen Angelique, is a very private woman devoted to her faith and her family (All of which is true, but what is not appreciated by most is that she also has very astute perception and judgement, and her observations and analyses are greatly valued by her husband, Carlos. But she prefers a low profile.).

[Othniel]

Ricardo is dead, Sebestain is in control.

[Lauranthalas]

Empire of All Russias:
HIM Czar Peter

Its Czar Peter V

[Fellatio Nelson]

What about the oft-mentioned Continental Alliance against the UK provoked by the Boer War? Very difficult to piece together given Franco-German relations.

However, why not just the French and Russians taking advantage of British preoccupation in South Africa post Fashoda Incident. Given their respective empires it would be a world war.

[Imajin]

Well, British intervention in South Africa likely isn't going to happen here, mostly because the Draka are there, and Draka and Britain have often seen themselves on the same side. I can easily see Draka, Britain, and possibly Persia (especially if A-T gets involved) on the same side.

[Glen]

What about the oft-mentioned Continental Alliance against the UK provoked by the Boer War? Very difficult to piece together given Franco-German relations.

However, why not just the French and Russians taking advantage of British preoccupation in South Africa post Fashoda Incident. Given their respective empires it would be a world war.

I believe you're in the wrong timeline...;)

[Fellatio Nelson]

I believe you're in the wrong timeline...;)

Phew, only read through the first post and thought my historical knowledge was suddenly rather iffy, which is particularly bad news for me! :D


As a newcomer virgin-AH type, what is ME?

[Glen]

Phew, only read through the first post and thought my historical knowledge was suddenly rather iffy, which is particularly bad news for me! :D


As a newcomer virgin-AH type, what is ME?

Welcome! ME stands for Mosaic Earth, a game that sort of takes the SM Stirling/Eric Flint concept of taking a bit of one time and putting it somewhere else in time, twists it ninety degrees, and then expands it beyond all reason.

Basically, players create nations from Alternate History timelines to play. Each game has a particular set of rules stating what era your nations are from, and how long ago your point of divergence from our timeline can be, and a few other rules. Then, at a given moment, those nations (or substantial chunks thereof) get put all together on the same Earth. Usually, there are areas not given to players (either no one took them or the mods decided no one gets that or whatever), and usually these areas are from OTL but a more primitive period.

Then we write vinettes about first contact with different versions of nations (some are completely unknown), and then the horse trading and wars of conquest begin. ;)

This thread is discussing a particularly interesting game's prospects for developing a sort of WWI scenario. This ME game started in 1886 CE, though many nations had technology up to about 1891 equivalent. We just are finishing a period where we 'fastforwarded' the game and are about to resume normal pace of play in the year 1899 CE, but we tweaked the tech even more, making it about equivalent to 1910 CE, but with a bias towards technologies that would give the game a Jules Verne type feel (Nautilus subs, Zeppelin warships, Land Leviathans, etc.).

That's about the size of it. LiME just started, and it is a smaller, specifically limited version of ME with a stop date to intro people into the ME playing world. That one is set in 1927 CE, with a POD for countries no earlier than 1790 CE, and the unISOTed areas 1800 CE.

If you'd be interested in playing, read through the LiME threads to see what has been done thus far, then look at the map (white areas are unclaimed). If you see an area that no one has really said anything about yet that you would be interested in creating a country for, let us know and we'll squeeze you in (say the ISOT threw off your comm or something). I think you'd be especially able to do something in South America....

[Fellatio Nelson]

Cheers for the information, Glen, was previously rather confused by all the ME shorthand.

Thanks again.

[Glen]

Cheers for the information, Glen, was previously rather confused by all the ME shorthand.

Thanks again.

You're welcome. Any interest in jumping in in LiME? Now's the time to speak as really you're arriving a bit late.

Otherwise, I'd recommend lurking a bit and maybe trying your hand at ME8 in about a month or two. 1965 Cold War era that one....

[Fellatio Nelson]

That sounds interesting. Will need to go through the old threads to catch the drift of this, though.

[Aussey]

Welcome! ME stands for Mosaic Earth, a game that sort of takes the SM Stirling/Eric Flint concept of taking a bit of one time and putting it somewhere else in time, twists it ninety degrees, and then expands it beyond all reason.

Basically, players create nations from Alternate History timelines to play. Each game has a particular set of rules stating what era your nations are from, and how long ago your point of divergence from our timeline can be, and a few other rules. Then, at a given moment, those nations (or substantial chunks thereof) get put all together on the same Earth. Usually, there are areas not given to players (either no one took them or the mods decided no one gets that or whatever), and usually these areas are from OTL but a more primitive period.

Then we write vinettes about first contact with different versions of nations (some are completely unknown), and then the horse trading and wars of conquest begin. ;)

This thread is discussing a particularly interesting game's prospects for developing a sort of WWI scenario. This ME game started in 1886 CE, though many nations had technology up to about 1891 equivalent. We just are finishing a period where we 'fastforwarded' the game and are about to resume normal pace of play in the year 1899 CE, but we tweaked the tech even more, making it about equivalent to 1910 CE, but with a bias towards technologies that would give the game a Jules Verne type feel (Nautilus subs, Zeppelin warships, Land Leviathans, etc.).

That's about the size of it. LiME just started, and it is a smaller, specifically limited version of ME with a stop date to intro people into the ME playing world. That one is set in 1927 CE, with a POD for countries no earlier than 1790 CE, and the unISOTed areas 1800 CE.

If you'd be interested in playing, read through the LiME threads to see what has been done thus far, then look at the map (white areas are unclaimed). If you see an area that no one has really said anything about yet that you would be interested in creating a country for, let us know and we'll squeeze you in (say the ISOT threw off your comm or something). I think you'd be especially able to do something in South America....

Gle, Glen, Glen, Glen, Glen....you could convince somone eating mud was good with your persuasion skills....

[Aussey]

For anyone who needs *ideas*, here are reigning monarchs and their consorts:

Kingdom of Navarre and Asturias:
HM Queen Constance
Prince-Consort Joseph of Austria (Crown Prince)

Kingdom of Portugal:
HM Queen Constance
King-Consort Joseph of Austria (Crown Prince)

Imperial Empire of Japan:
HIM Emperor Meiji Mutsuhito

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland:
HM King Edward VII

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (claimant):
HM Queen Mary III (Archduchess of Habsburg Empire, Queen-Mother of Karelia)

Empire-Kingdom of Armenia-Trebizond:
HIM Empress Alexandra

Empire of All Russias:
HIM Czar Peter V

Kingdom of New Granada:
HM King Carlos II
Queen Angelique


Viceroyalty of Peru: (Austral Confederation)
HE Viceroy Count Don Alvaro de Mendoza

Hellenic Kingdom of Macedonia:
HM Queen Marie
Prince-Consort Charles of Austria

Kingdom of the Hellenes:
King Edmund I

German Confederation:
Kaiser-Elect Wilhelm Hohoenzollern

Empire of Prussia: (German Confederation)
HIM Kaiser Wilhelm

Oldenrurg Confederation of the Rhine: (German Confederation)
HM Kaiser Christian I

Grand Duchy of Danestan: (German Confederation)
Grand Duke Wilhelm (also Emperor of Prussia)

Consitutional Monarchy of Mauriafrica:
HM King Sebastian

Habsburg Empire of Central Europe:
HIM Emperor Louis Joseph
Empress Maria of Bourbon-China

Empire of China and the Philippenes:
HIM Emperor Filipe

Kingdom of Karelia:
HM King John I
HM The Queen-Mother Mary of Austria

Empire of Persia:
HIM Shah Jahandar

Kingdom of Sviergestan:
HE Grand Vizier Saltan ibn Thor
Vicereine Khadija bin Abdullah Ali-Rizza

Emirate of Norgestan:
HRH Emir Haakon ibn Ismail

[Imajin]

Out of boredom, here's a possible Great War story.

In 1899, Queen Mary of Macedonia and her family are killed when the Macedonian Palace is firebombed by a Greek revolutionary. Britain refuses to allow Austrian police to enter Greece to capture and wipe out the Greek Unification Army, which attacks Macedonia from cities in Greece. Thus, a state of War is declared upon the British Empire by Austria. Britain is quickly joined by France, and Germany, while Karelia and Armenia-Trebizond join Austria. The Austrian-led alliance is formalized as the Vienna Pact, while the British side is simply the Allies.

The Vienna Pact does best in the beginning, as much of the non-Constantinople part of the Protectorate of Constantinople is occupied by Armenia. Milan and Savoy fall to Austria, though the line stretch across the pre-ISOT borders. In Scnadinavia, much of Norgestan falls to a Sverigestani Army proclaiming unification. Troops clash between Zhanjiang and Hong Kong, though there is little movement outside of Europe.

Soon, the Armenian Advance is prevented when the Persian Empire joins the war, and forces clash there, and the Sultanate of Turkey becomes a massive field of death. Armenian airships firebomb the city of Antioch, resulting in widespread condemnation from the Allies. Later in the year, Draka and Britain sign a secret agreement, agreeing that Draka shall enter the war, and in excahgne shall be rewarded with parts of Ethiopia. Drakan Troops are moved through the Suez into Austrian Egypt...

The Vienna Pact manages shortfall after shortfall, even as Mauri-Africa joined the Allies, until finally, in 1904, Armenia-Trebizond surrenders to the Persian Empire, followed by Austria. Karelia held out until 1905... In the peace treaty, most of Austria's Empire is given away, Armenia-Trebizond is reduced to it's ISOT borders, China is ceded Zhanjiang, Tyrolea becomes a French protectorate, a number of new states appear in the Balkans unde rBritish protection, Turkey's government is abolished...

[Aussey]

What about the Imperial Alliance between the Habsburg Empire and German Confederation? Or the Austro-Chinese Dynastic Alliance? Or the good-relations with the Habsburg Empire and Russia. And what about the Americas???We need a world war....

[Glen]

Gle, Glen, Glen, Glen, Glen....you could convince somone eating mud was good with your persuasion skills....

Thank you...I think... ;)

Well, I am Irish, ya know....and I actually did kiss the Blarney Stone...though I have to say my speaking career dated from before that encounter....

[Glen]

What about the Imperial Alliance between the Habsburg Empire and German Confederation? Or the Austro-Chinese Dynastic Alliance? Or the good-relations with the Habsburg Empire and Russia. And what about the Americas???We need a world war....

We don't NEED a world war. Some might WANT a world war, but that is different.

You could have a very nice WWI with almost no Americas involvement except sellling arms, at least until the very end when we all declare for the winners and take a few tidbits here and there.... ;)

Just kidding, although that is how it mostly went in WWI OTL. US was a Johnny come lately, though the Canadians were in it from the get go, I believe.

[Glen]

Out of boredom, here's a possible Great War story.

In 1899, Queen Mary of Macedonia and her family are killed when the Macedonian Palace is firebombed by a Greek revolutionary. Britain refuses to allow Austrian police to enter Greece to capture and wipe out the Greek Unification Army, which attacks Macedonia from cities in Greece.

Ah, the Balkans, land of turmoil....

Are the Brits trying to pick a fight with Hapsburg in this scenario?

Thus, a state of War is declared upon the British Empire by Austria. Britain is quickly joined by France, and Germany,

France I can see. Even though there is no love lost between the two, it could be to their advantage to declare against Hapsburg and gain some land. Then again, it might be most to their advantage to stay out of it entirely. Why would they care about a fight between the UK and Hapsburg over the Hellenic Peninsula?

As for the German Confederation...well, they do have GP as a senior partner, always a good reason for a war. :D Okay, they might be likely to go to war with Hapsburg to gain more Germanic lands...but I think only if the Russians are going after Hapsburg also, or at least guaranteed not to use the War as an excuse to attack the GC for their own lebensraum.

while Karelia and Armenia-Trebizond join Austria.

A-T I doubt would join unless they thought the Hapsburgs had a credible chance of winning. Would they?

Karelia is not going to get involved unless it involves the Baltic or they come in late enough to know they're on the winning side and grab some territory. At least, I wouldn't think they would.

The Austrian-led alliance is formalized as the Vienna Pact, while the British side is simply the Allies.

Oh, I am certain Aussey would come up with a much more glamourous name for their block! ;)

The Vienna Pact does best in the beginning, as much of the non-Constantinople part of the Protectorate of Constantinople is occupied by Armenia.

It is?

Milan and Savoy fall to Austria, though the line stretch across the pre-ISOT borders.

Why would that be? I left it off with the French digging in on that line as well, and I haven't seen anything from Ward that would counter that. I think they invade into Milan a few miles and stall.

In Scnadinavia, much of Norgestan falls to a Sverigestani Army proclaiming unification.

Few comments here since I can't keep all the Skandistani stuff straight.

Troops clash between Zhanjiang and Hong Kong, though there is little movement outside of Europe.

Well, I guess I could see that in this scenario...

Soon, the Armenian Advance is prevented when the Persian Empire joins the war, and forces clash there, and the Sultanate of Turkey becomes a massive field of death. Armenian airships firebomb the city of Antioch, resulting in widespread condemnation from the Allies.

Why are the Armenians so effective? I would think the Persians would mow them over. Am I missing something?

Later in the year, Draka and Britain sign a secret agreement, agreeing that Draka shall enter the war, and in excahgne shall be rewarded with parts of Ethiopia. Drakan Troops are moved through the Suez into Austrian Egypt...

This rings a bit hollow to me. I think that the British wouldn't give up any of Ethiopia to the Draka, and I don't think they want them anywhere near Egypt. This time they might be feeling their oats and not give back what they've taken....

The Vienna Pact manages shortfall after shortfall, even as Mauri-Africa joined the Allies, until finally,

Ah, and that would be an interesting twist. It would greatly jeopardize the Allied efforts in the Mediterranean. And I think that Africa becomes hell on Earth as the Mauri and Draka clash all along their border and unleash their most terrible weapons on one another. And with Mauri troops pouring into Austrian North Africa on the Vienna Pact's side, it might be Suez that falls, not Egypt.

I think they just do a burnt earth in Iberia against the French until they reach the line they want to defend, then the French stall.

in 1904, Armenia-Trebizond surrenders to the Persian Empire,

That makes sense.

followed by Austria. Karelia held out until 1905... In the peace treaty, most of Austria's Empire is given away,

If this scenario occurs, I think there would be a good chance that Hapsburg would cease to exist and the major portion of the lands would go to the GC.

Unless the UK and France demands that an Austria still exist to help maintain the balance of power on the continent...but will the GC listen?

Armenia-Trebizond is reduced to it's ISOT borders,

No, I think it is swallowed whole, split between UK and Persia.

China is ceded Zhanjiang,

When did the Spanish Philippines come into the picture?

Tyrolea becomes a French protectorate,

Agreed.

a number of new states appear in the Balkans unde rBritish protection, Turkey's government is abolished...

Probably.

However, there are some REALLY big holes in this scenario. The biggest being Russia, followed by Japan.

Is Russia really going to sit out this war? Maybe, they have been focused on the Far East, but would they this time?

If they jump in, on whose side? If they go with the Allies, they can scoop up lands in Karelia, Eastern Hapsburg, and maybe A-T.

If they jump in on the Vienna Pact side, they can try for GC's eastern flank, maybe even the straights themselves and a significant chunk of Persia, maybe India.

But what about the Far East? If I were Japan, I think I would go with the Allies, and take the Philippines and some of the Philippine Chinese coast (If we go with Aussey's theory of dynastic ties, then the Carlists go for the Pact, who try to grab the British and French Chinese Coasts? And Taiwan?).

Okay, so I'm thinking in this scenario, the Russians and the Japanese stay on the same side and go after the Vienna Pact territories in both Europe, MidEast, and Far East.

Of course, the problem with this scenario for a WWI is that the Vienna Pact are fighting out of their weight class almost the entire time. Only Hapsburg are close....until the Mauris come in. But if I were Mauri entering later into the war, I'd cut a deal with the Brits for Libya, Sicily, maybe even South Italy, and the rest of Iberia (assuming via Aussey's dynastic and playing ties that they ally with Hapsburg).

If Mauri does come in on the Allied side, I see the Brits having a tougher fight in the Med, and possibly losing Suez, though then maybe regaining it with Persian and Draka aid (assuming either of them would give it back after the war, no certain thing). They take Corsica from France probably. Definitely take French Africa. And the rest is a hellacious fight with the Draka on their borders.

[Aussey]

While at a Confederation Day pararade, their Imperial Majesties Kaiser Wilhelm of Prussia and Kaiser Kristian of Oldenburg are snipped by a Frenchmen. The new Kaisers *Bob* and *Joe* deliver an ulatamatum to the French Republic, pretty hard demands like Baden, Belgium, compensation, etc.& etc. The rest of the Three Emperor's League publicly states to side with the Confederation's decision. France refuses, and the Three Emperor's League declares war on France.

-go from there-

[Imajin]

What is the Three Emperor's League? Austria, Russia, and Germany as OTL?

[Aussey]

What is the Three Emperor's League? Austria, Russia, and Germany as OTL?

Yes...but China might be joining soon, so it would turn to 4...except this 3EL is an actual alliance of the Empires, not just kind words to each other by the Emperors...It's a merger of the Imperial Alliance (Austria/Germany), the Romanov-Habsburg Dynastic Alliance Renewed (Austria/Russia), the Eastern Alliance (Germany/Russia), and soon the Dynastic Alliance (Austria/China)....yet thee alliances are also treated separetly...

[Glen]

Here's the start of another scenario.

The Persians decide that A-T is too much of an insult to exist, especially after taking their access to the Black Sea. They launch an attack to take all of AT.

The British warn the Persians not to do so, as this will affect further the balance of power in the region, but the Persians ignore this warning. Infuriated by this snub as well as the (sort of) unprovoked invasion of the small nation, the British reinforce the AT and hold the Persians at bey, for a while. Sensing an opportunity, Macedonia and Hapsburg support the Persians and launch attacks against the British. Navarre y Portugal and China follow their dynastic and geopolitical leanings and join in.

At first, the British and AT are heavily outnumbed in the region, and things look grim. Then things get worse when the Draka decide to join in the clobberfest, honoring their agreements with Persia and attacking into Kenya and points North.

Then comes the Mauri calvalry (sort of). They cut a deal with the Brits to come in on their side (they will have the Iberian Peninsula sans Gibralter, Sicily, and Libya, as well as whatever they can get from Draka). The Mauris and Draka go to war all along the line, unleashing hell on earth in the Dark Continent.

Now that things seem to be improving for the beleaguered British, the Karelians decide to jump in with the Allies, attacking Hapsburg held Skandistan. Now the German Confederation follows suit, planning to annex a little more of Scandinavia and a lot more of Austria.

This is too much for the French, who fear that the GC and Mauri will grow too powerful on the Continent. They strike a deal with the Austrians and Navarrese and Persians, and come in on their side, fighting the GC and Mauri on the Continent and the Mauri in North Africa.

In the Far East, Japan decides to declare for Britain and goes after the Carlist Empire, as well as the French Chinese Coast.

Now the real question is where do the Russians go?

Canada fights for the Allies from early on, just like in OTL WWI. The USA and New Granada are Neutral officially, but favor the British/Mauri side. The Austral Confederation remaims neutral as well, though they tend to mean it.

If Draka tries to launch unrestricted sub warfare against American and New Granadan shipping, perhaps they also come in on the British/Mauri side, and maybe even finally with Austral Confederation joining in in the end (maybe some promises from Mauriafrica about gradually returning Spain to some form of self governance).

Well, that is just another possible scenario...anyone have some more?

[Glen]

While at a Confederation Day pararade, their Imperial Majesties Kaiser Wilhelm of Prussia and Kaiser Kristian of Oldenburg are snipped by a Frenchmen. The new Kaisers *Bob* and *Joe* deliver an ulatamatum to the French Republic, pretty hard demands like Baden, Belgium, compensation, etc.& etc. The rest of the Three Emperor's League publicly states to side with the Confederation's decision. France refuses, and the Three Emperor's League declares war on France.

-go from there-

Okay, that is a relatively good one, except why would a Frenchman bother?

Now then, an OLDENBURGER kills them, leading to a rather harsh response from the Confederation authorities in Oldenburg, sparking a civil war. The French support (at first nonformally) the Oldenburg rebels. This leads Austria to declare for their Emperor's league and against France. The Navarrese follow suit, as do the Carlists out in the Far East. Japan declares for the French and does their thing. Russia decides to nip the Japanese menace in the bud before it grows too powerful, and declares for the Emperor's League as well. The GC in trying to come to grips with the French make the classic blunder of invading neutral territory, namely the Netherlands which are American. The Americans declare war on the Germans, siding with the French. The rest of the Americas stand behind the Americans, becoming the arsenal of democracy. The British try to broker a peace, but this is rebuffed. Attacks on Canadian shipping lead the British to enter the war on the side of France and America, and take Macedonia and points North while trying to stave off the Austro-Russian forces in the area. In an attempted flanking manuever, the Russians invade through AT. The Persians declare against the Russians and for the British, trying to get the Russians out of Anatolia.

Mauri goes with the Americans, launching attacks into Austrian Libya and Southern Italy and Navarre.

The Draka decide to sit this one out until there is a clear winner, and then try and grab some territory.

Skandistan, the Karelians get caught between the British and the Russians...they decide to declare for the Emperors and fight the British.

Well, that's another sort of scenario...anyone else?

[Aussey]

Alliances, Glen, Alliances. Habsburg alliances with Armenia are ancient (as ancient as 1864 :D) besides that, it is good. Though Navarre would probably stay neutral as they are allied with Mauri...

[Aussey]

Okay, that is a relatively good one, except why would a Frenchman bother?

It's a border Frenchmen, like a Lorrainese, who traditionally dislike the Germans, opposite their counterpart the Alsatians who traditionaly dislike the French? Some guy who's hometown was ceded to Germany maybe...

[Glen]

It's a border Frenchmen, like a Lorrainese, who traditionally dislike the Germans, opposite their counterpart the Alsatians who traditionaly dislike the French? Some guy who's hometown was ceded to Germany maybe...

Check out my editted version below, with yet another scenario.

[Matt]

The only thing with your scenerio is that Britian would have obligations to declare for the Americans as soon as my national integrity is violated, part of my deal to limit my fleet in European waters.

[Bulgaroktonos]

I see it much like the Greek Anarchist situation, except with different sides.

Britain, Japan, Canada, France, US, Prussia vs Oldenburg, Austria, Carlist China, Russia, A-T

Mauriafrica and Draka could go either way, but they are unlikley to be on the same team.


Also note that America must declare for Britain if the Suez's security is threatened.....part of Britain's requirements to stomach a significant US naval presence.....

[Aussey]

Here's the basics:

Austria and/or Britain and/or Draka will never be on the same side

Karelia and Armenia will MOST LIKELY ally with the Habsburgs

Navarre might go either way, since they count the Mauris as their allies

Depending on Navarre, would PROBABLY make Mauris decision

The US will most likely follow Britain, same with Canada

China and Sviergestan SHOULD go with the Habsburgs

Russia would be on either side, depending on where the war is/what it is over

Macedonia doesnt matter, as in 1899 it is annexed to the Empire...

[Glen]

Or how about this....

The World War starts when an amazing presentation is made by an Ethiopian cleric who escaped from Draka servitude with a few children. Their tales of enslavement and degradation finally broke the reticense of the last hold outs on the Council, and the call went out from the Christian Communion Council for Holy War against the heretical Draka Domination....

The Christian Nations of the world girded themselves for battle, but the Persians decided to stand beside their Draka allies against the Christian Crusaders. The fight was joined by the Skandistani, with their coreligionists and the land that had taken so many of their sons in. The War united the Skandistani like nothing else had, and they rebelled against their Christian overlords, the so called 'advisors'. The Japanese as well, fearing a new rule of the Christian over all others, joined their Draka allies.

And so the first World War was the latest and largest of the Crusades... ;)

[General_Paul]

I personally believe that the next Great War will break out in Africa, or in the near east. The whole area is volitile as a 10 year old with a lighter, and a box of fireworks. And I will say this right now, the German Confederation will NOT get involved in the next great war, she has too much to loose. Now Japan however...who said Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere people!? Awww yeah...go japan!

[Lauranthalas]

Britain, Japan, Canada, France, US, Prussia vs Oldenburg, Austria, Carlist China, Russia, A-T

Russia and Japan being on 2 opposing sides would be stupid from both. I highly doubt that this'll be the case

[Glen]

Russia and Japan being on 2 opposing sides would be stupid from both. I highly doubt that this'll be the case

I actually tend to agree. They instead should team up to carve up the remains of the Far East...

[Ward]

It's a border Frenchmen, like a Lorrainese, who traditionally dislike the Germans, opposite their counterpart the Alsatians who traditionaly dislike the French? Some guy who's hometown was ceded to Germany maybe...





France never ceded anyland to Germany in the last war . How about we have an Austrian take out the Premre of France instead . And France can prove that it was an Austria spy .

[Bulgaroktonos]

I actually tend to agree. They instead should team up to carve up the remains of the Far East...

Actually highly unlikely. Russia will be seeing Japan as some upstart backwoods nation who's help they do not need, and Japan and Russia see that area as their zone of influence, and that will lead to a crises between the two. A war is coming between them, and it is likely sooner rather than later.

As for GP's declaration that the GC will not be involved, that is wholly unlikely as well. Germany is just beginning to flex its muscles on the world stage, and Germany's desire to expand (simply a historical trend and irreversible fact) is going to cause problems.

Remember people, you don't control your nation's wholesale. You are simply roleplaying. Why else did the French Imperial family fall? Because the people wouldn't stomach it.

[Lauranthalas]

Actually highly unlikely. Russia will be seeing Japan as some upstart backwoods nation who's help they do not need, and Japan and Russia see that area as their zone of influence, and that will lead to a crises between the two. A war is coming between them, and it is likely sooner rather than later.


for a backwod nation is their military convincingly big

[DuQuense]

[quote/]Gle, Glen, Glen, Glen, Glen....you could convince someone eating mud was good with your persuasion skills....[quote]

You mean it's NOT

[Glen]

Actually highly unlikely. Russia will be seeing Japan as some upstart backwoods nation who's help they do not need, and Japan and Russia see that area as their zone of influence, and that will lead to a crises between the two. A war is coming between them, and it is likely sooner rather than later.

Perhaps so. However, what they SHOULD do and what they are LIKELY to do are two different things...then again, the Japanese and Russians were on the same side in OTL WWI, so it isn't that improbable. It all depends on wha the two see as being in their best interests, a ruinous conflict now or divvy things up together and prepare for a ruinous conflict later.

As for GP's declaration that the GC will not be involved, that is wholly unlikely as well. Germany is just beginning to flex its muscles on the world stage, and Germany's desire to expand (simply a historical trend and irreversible fact) is going to cause problems.

I think you are perhaps over analogizing with OTL Germany. The GC is pretty large now, with the inclusion of the Skandistani Danes, and they have no overseas colonies to draw them into a naval race with the UK. Unless we see the GC as the CAUSE of WWI with the outbreak of civil war, they could very well sit out most of the war, sweeping in at the end to pick up some extra territory on the side of the winners.

Remember people, you don't control your nation's wholesale. You are simply roleplaying. Why else did the French Imperial family fall? Because the people wouldn't stomach it.

Well, yes. However, we know our people and nations the best, having created most of their history, especially those with earlier PODs. So I think the benefit of the doubt should be given to the player unless there is something glaringly bizarre or implausible (like the GC voting for an anschluss with Russia).

[perdedor99]

In the case of Russia/Japan, I have to admit China is too weak to resist their combined might. Must likely they join to carve up the area plus Philippines and them they can deal with each other later. As long as no one intervenes China is toast in my opinion.Also adding Philippines to their Empire falls into the Japanese's Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere scheme.

[Glen]

In the case of Russia/Japan, I have to admit China is too weak to resist their combined might. Must likely they join to carve up the area plus Philippines and them they can deal with each other later.

Yeah, that's a real possibility I think. Not that anything is certain, but a real possibility.

As long as no one intervenes China is toast in my opinion.

Right. All gonna depend how a War starts and how the sides fall out after.

Also adding Philippines to their Empire falls into the Japanese's Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere scheme.

Very much so. But will the British allow it, I wonder? Perhaps THEY grab the Phillipines instead? All depends on how this falls out.

[Aussey]

But will the British allow it, I wonder? Perhaps THEY grab the Phillipines instead? All depends on how this falls out.

Unless, the Habsburg Spratleys aid Japan...heh...i think someone should shoot the Pope...a Drakan!!!

[Glen]

Unless, the Habsburg Spratleys aid Japan...

What does that even mean? You do know there is virtually nothing there, right?

heh...i think someone should shoot the Pope...a Drakan!!!

Why would they? Though it would be very Pope John Paul II....

[Bulgaroktonos]

Perhaps so. However, what they SHOULD do and what they are LIKELY to do are two different things...then again, the Japanese and Russians were on the same side in OTL WWI, so it isn't that improbable. It all depends on wha the two see as being in their best interests, a ruinous conflict now or divvy things up together and prepare for a ruinous conflict later.

Your argument about Japan and Russia being on the same side in WWI ignores wholescale the point that Japan HUMILIATED Russia in a war a scant decade before, and the Japan was more or less allied with Britain, so Russia couldn't do anything. Japan was the regional power, and Russia was forced to accept that. In ME7, we haven't had this conflict yet. Russia and Japan aren't going ot be divvying it up, because Russia is going to believe they can simply take it from a bunch of Oriental "children" while Japan is going to be looking to prove it can play with the Big Boys. I don't see Russo-Japanese cooperation as terribly plausible.

My basis for this is that we are going to be using things like drafts, nationalism, free-trade, all things that are roughly analogous to OTL. That requires many underlying assumptions about the political state of the nation, its mindset, etc.

Russia is NOT going to view Japan as their equals, and is totally unlikely to divide it with people they see as their inferiors. It just isn't going ot happen. For the same reason Britain is calling Mauriafrica "desert rabble." They aren't European, therefore they aren't as advanced.

I think you are perhaps over analogizing with OTL Germany. The GC is pretty large now, with the inclusion of the Skandistani Danes, and they have no overseas colonies to draw them into a naval race with the UK. Unless we see the GC as the CAUSE of WWI with the outbreak of civil war, they could very well sit out most of the war, sweeping in at the end to pick up some extra territory on the side of the winners.

However, the trend within European politics, and GP has already been showing the signs of this, is that there is one continental power and then Britain. Right now, we have 4. 4 huge powers. This situation cannot last. GP's policies have been expansionist. He has claimed for German unity. This is a direct challenge to Austria. We also have France. And Russia. It is wholly implausible that any of the 4 continental powers are going to sit the Great War out.

[/quote]Well, yes. However, we know our people and nations the best, having created most of their history, especially those with earlier PODs. So I think the benefit of the doubt should be given to the player unless there is something glaringly bizarre or implausible (like the GC voting for an anschluss with Russia).[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree, but sometimes you have to realize that you do not rule every aspect of your country, and that when you take on a banner of nationalism, its going to carry with it numerous social consequences that you must adhere to. And Nationalism in Germany, France, Russia, Austria, and Britain is going to require that the matter of European domination be settled. A minor war could be sat out. A Great War will draw in all the power.

[Aussey]

So the Habsburg Empire IS a power, eh? I didn't know that...

[Glen]

Your argument about Japan and Russia being on the same side in WWI ignores wholescale the point that Japan HUMILIATED Russia in a war a scant decade before, and the Japan was more or less allied with Britain, so Russia couldn't do anything.

And similar politics couldn't apply? Just because Russia wasn't humiliated doesn't make them less likely to collaborate; it makes them more likely. They know that Japan is a modernized nation. They know that China was until recently a 1400 CE nation. They could very well say, "You work on those Philippines and the bits near Taiwan, we'll take the rest." They would likely have a confrontation at some point, but it need not be in the Great War. Just like Britain/US and Japan were bound to have a confrontation, but not during the Great War.

I'm not saying that is what will happen. Just that there are reasons on both sides, and in a Great War, they would be smart to team up against the weaker and/or more distant powers to make gains.

Japan was the regional power, and Russia was forced to accept that. In ME7, we haven't had this conflict yet. Russia and Japan aren't going ot be divvying it up, because Russia is going to believe they can simply take it from a bunch of Oriental "children" while Japan is going to be looking to prove it can play with the Big Boys. I don't see Russo-Japanese cooperation as terribly plausible.

And I don't see it as terribly implausible. There are other outlets for both nations to expand still, thus I do not see cooperation as terribly implausible either. We'll see.

My basis for this is that we are going to be using things like drafts, nationalism, free-trade, all things that are roughly analogous to OTL. That requires many underlying assumptions about the political state of the nation, its mindset, etc.

There are also some things missing. We don't have as many alliances yet between the great powers locking them into a web of war. France for example has no alliances really, and neither does Great Britain. There may or may not be alliances between Hapsburg and the German Confederation (hard to tell). And I don't know what the deal is with Russia, our wildcard of the powers.

Russia is NOT going to view Japan as their equals, and is totally unlikely to divide it with people they see as their inferiors.

So? They see them as their inferiors, but that doesn't mean they aren't willing to cooperate with them in what they see as their best interest. Especially I can see them just agreeing not to confront each other, and then Russia grabbing most of China and the Japanese working on the Philippines and Southeast Asia/Oceana. They need not 'divvy up' anything, just work on their own projects and agree not to attack each other.

It just isn't going ot happen.

I don't think such an absolute is warranted in this situation. If the two nations see it as being in their mutual best interests, they will work together. If one however sees it in their best interests to go to war with the other, then there will be war. I don't see their populations driving that much at all as they don't have the same history of animosity in TTL.

For the same reason Britain is calling Mauriafrica "desert rabble." They aren't European, therefore they aren't as advanced.

Well, I would imagine they would have a privately different view of them, but would that really translate into British diplomatic activity, or even affect their strategic planning?

Earlier in the century Britain did ally when in their best interests with the Ottoman and with the Egyptian. Don't remember a lot of 'desert rabble' comments there. And Oth's Mauri are much closer to European than either of those. And I haven't heard this type of rhetoric towards the Persians either, or did we miss that?

That you don't consider them as advanced; very well. That you thus dismiss their strategic value? Not likely IMO.


However, the trend within European politics, and GP has already been showing the signs of this, is that there is one continental power and then Britain.

That would be a breakdown of the traditional British political goal of balanced powers on the Continent.

Right now, we have 4. 4 huge powers. This situation cannot last.

Well, it theoretically could with the right mindset, but it won't because our players are as crazy for a war as the Europeans were just prior to WWI.

GP's policies have been expansionist.

In year one. Since then, over a decade, he has done nothing to further that. In fact, did the GC make some sort of treaty with Hapsburg? I thought I saw something like that earlier...

He has claimed for German unity.

Yes, he has. So did Prussia in OTL. BUT they excluded Austria from that because they didn't want them to dominate the new unified Germany. The GC may not WANT Austria in the Confederation for the same reason. I'm not saying that is so; just that that is a possibility.

This is a direct challenge to Austria.

See above. Hapsburg looks to be trying to forge a less 'Germanic' empire (thus the name change). So the GC can be the 'Germanic' nation, and the Austrians part of the 'Hapsburg' nation. They could possibly coexist with that sort of agreement.

Also recall, Germany and Austria have been on the same side (or the same nation) for BOTH World Wars. If the GC wants to unite with Austria due to pan-Germanism, there will also be a lot of pressure not to fight with their 'German' brothers. As you say, if you play such cards, sometimes they play you.

We also have France. And Russia. It is wholly implausible that any of the 4 continental powers are going to sit the Great War out.

But it is not implausible that they might wait until they can see which way the wind is blowing to jump in. Case in point, Italy in WWI. Actually, didn't they start on one side and end up on the other, AND get territory from it?


I don't disagree, but sometimes you have to realize that you do not rule every aspect of your country, and that when you take on a banner of nationalism, its going to carry with it numerous social consequences that you must adhere to.

Oh, I agree. However, the people can be guided to a degree, for a time.

And Nationalism in Germany, France, Russia, Austria, and Britain is going to require that the matter of European domination be settled. A minor war could be sat out. A Great War will draw in all the power.

Eventually it will, eventually. But my point is that depending how it starts and who the early players are, one or more of the powers could sit it out until it becomes clear who is winning, and then join in for the kill.

[Glen]

So the Habsburg Empire IS a power, eh? I didn't know that...

Yes, Aussey, they are a power. However, there are a lot of other powers out there, so be careful.

[Aussey]

Of course, we cant keep the blatently German, "Kaisertum Osterreich" as our name. Though, we want to be distinctly Habsburg (like not ARAB, its SAUDI) ya know? The Emperor is a Frenchmen, born of the second daughter of a previous ruler. He has olive complextion, darker hair, and green eyes, and is not tall. He isnt a German, but he wants to Germanize himself, while liberalizing the Empire. The family name: Habsburg-Lorraine-Boubron shows 2/3 French families....yet the Habsburg Empire is very anti-French.

[Glen]

Here's the basics:

Austria and/or Britain and/or Draka will never be on the same side

Aussey, your three way notation here confuses me. What precisely do you mean?

Karelia and Armenia will MOST LIKELY ally with the Habsburgs

Why again?

Navarre might go either way, since they count the Mauris as their allies

That is interesting. I would have thought you would have the Navarrese and the Hapsburgs welded at the hip. But that is cool...

Depending on Navarre, would PROBABLY make Mauris decision

Huh? I can't understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that Mauri will go the way Navarre goes? Or the other way around? Or something else?


The US will most likely follow Britain, same with Canada

Sure.

China and Sviergestan SHOULD go with the Habsburgs

I note the should there. What do you think would change that?

Russia would be on either side, depending on where the war is/what it is over

Yes. Russia is the wildcard so far.

Macedonia doesnt matter, as in 1899 it is annexed to the Empire...

And yet you made an entry for Macedonia. Your devotion to short lived nations is astounding, Aussey! ;)

[Bulgaroktonos]

That you don't consider them as advanced; very well. That you thus dismiss their strategic value? Not likely IMO.

Not strategice value, strategic threat. You view them as inferior, so why fear them? Why let Japan have the Philippines or the Chinese coast when you believe you can simply take it for yourself? There is no reason for Russia to view Japan as any form of threat and by believing them to be inferior in ability than themselves, are unlikely to cooperate, and much more likely to snub Japan in an area that Japan believes to be their sphere of influence......

That would be a breakdown of the traditional British political goal of balanced powers on the Continent.

But that's how it has always been. At least since 1588. We had the Thirty Years war that deposed Austria as the foremost power replacing it with France, which led to the Wars of Louis XIV, which saw the emergence of hte British system of "balance of powers."

We then saw the various wars involving Prussia that established Prussia as if not the dominant than a serious rival for control of hte Continent.

The point is that Europe has not had a Great War since Napoleon. Any Great War that happens will involve all hte major powers. It must. Italy was not a great power. It was soundly trounced by a bunch of Austrians and a few Germans at Caporetto. Its officers were shooting the men who retreated.....

The simple politics of this scenario preclude it. Germany is not going to let France and Britain crush Austria. Britain is not going to let France and Austria crush Germany........

The thing about the balance of power in Europe is that everybody wanted a balance in their favor, and it is because of this reason that any Great War in Europe will involve ALL the major powers. The only one that even has a remote chance of sitting it out for even a short time is Britain, but even then, it's entry is assured....

In year one. Since then, over a decade, he has done nothing to further that. In fact, did the GC make some sort of treaty with Hapsburg? I thought I saw something like that earlier...

Germany didn't do much from 1871-1914 either....

But it is not implausible that they might wait until they can see which way the wind is blowing to jump in. Case in point, Italy in WWI. Actually, didn't they start on one side and end up on the other, AND get territory from it?

For the minor powers it is plausible. Karelia might be able to sit out the whole war as might Spain and hte Papal States. But Germany, Hapsburgia, France, Britain, and Russia are going to be in the thick of it almost from the get go. There is simply too much to be lost by not entering the war. I.E. Germany and France are NOT going to ally. Thus, if Britain and France crush Austria, Germany is in a worse position. Thus, they are going ot enter the war IMMEDIATELY because Austria doesn't stand a chance.........

Britain and Austria are unlikely to ally, and are likely to be two of the instigators for a major war. Russia could go either way depending on the value they place upon the Straits. If they are happy with control of hte Balkans they will likely ally with Austria. This will Bring Germany into the War, as Germany will not want to see a Stronger Russia. Even despite the friendship of Lauranthalas and GP, I cannot see any war between Austria and Russia involving Russo-German cooperation. A WWI alliance of OTL will Bring in France as well, simply because they can avenge themselves and because Germany cannot hope to beat them all........



Oh, I agree. However, the people can be guided to a degree, for a time.



until it becomes clear who is winning, and then join in for the kill.

And they will get the same treatment Italy got......nothing. I know that if Germany joined in any war against Austria at the last minute for land, they would get NOTHING at the peace table. Britain would make sure of it.......

[Imajin]

And they will get the same treatment Italy got......nothing. I know that if Germany joined in any war against Austria at the last minute for land, they would get NOTHING at the peace table. Britain would make sure of it.......

Italy did get something- Unless you call the South Tyrol and the important port of Trieste nothing, I guess... But I agree, it's a lot less than they wanted.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Italy did get something- Unless you call the South Tyrol and the important port of Trieste nothing, I guess... But I agree, it's a lot less than they wanted.

Exactly, and in the eyes of Italy, they lost 900,000 guys or so for nothing.......

That's why we had mussolini....

[Glen]

And they will get the same treatment Italy got......nothing. I know that if Germany joined in any war against Austria at the last minute for land, they would get NOTHING at the peace table. Britain would make sure of it.......

Well, for not being a Great Power, they got courted hard by both sides.

And actually, the Italians got at least the South Tyrol and Istria, as well as a chunk of Anatolia (which they were unable to establish themselves in). So they did get something.

[Imajin]

Well, for not being a Great Power, they got courted hard by both sides.

And actually, the Italians got at least the South Tyrol and Istria, as well as a chunk of Anatolia (which they were unable to establish themselves in). So they did get something.
Well, when you compare it to their goals, it's not much... IIRC, they wanted all of the Tyrol, Dalmatia, and that section of Anatolia which really doesn't count because they never actually got to rule it for any amount of time...

[Lauranthalas]

There is no reason for Russia to view Japan as any form of threat

ehm did you see the armed forces of little defenseless Japan?

[perdedor99]

ehm did you see the armed forces of little defenseless Japan?

We already discussed the size of the army and the 3.2 million is pretty much the manpower available. The size of the army is pretty much 850,000. A sizable force but smaller than the Russian, the biggest army in the world, or the Draka, the second biggest. Their advantage is short communication lines. In case of a war with Russia they can bear the bulk of their army over you before your reinforcements arrive from the west.

We are saying, and I understand Bulg, is the 19th century mentality. The white europeans will see the japanese as less than them and they could pay a lot if they do that mistake.

[Lauranthalas]

We are saying, and I understand Bulg, is the 19th century mentality. The white europeans will see the japanese as less than them and they could pay a lot if they do that mistake.
but still the russians aint gonna be that stupid because they have to think about other things too and I really really do not like to call the reserve

[Othniel]

I'm going to say that if a war spreads to minor powers if the British put themselves on the side of the Mauris against the Draka it would bring more allies to their side. For one the Mauris have ties to the Austral Confederation, which at least intails support for the Mauri cause. Secondly the Austral Confederation is tied into a contract with the Americans, and if I see where this is going I see a Mauriafrica-British-French-American alignment, against an Austrian-German-Russo-Drakan entente.

Germany would provide the highest threat to the Netherlands which are tied into the British and the US. GB declares war on behalf of the Netherlands and the US, which results in the activation of the Draka-German Alliance and the Austro-German alliance. The French would also fight on the side of the Dutch if this was the case. The Mauriafricans would most likely be stirred to help the Pact Americania.And well you see where my little powder keg would start...

[Othniel]

However I must question the aftereffects of such a great war on our respective nations... In order to be a truely great war, economies will be wreak, colonies will be set free (or turn more automous), and we are likely to see giants take a fall...while those less hurt might take a harty profit....which might lead to fall later on because of economic overconfedence.

[Imajin]

Well, look at what happened after OTL's Great War... the Hapsburg and Ottoman Empires were wiped off the map, Germany's colonial Empire was lost...

[Othniel]

and the economies of Europe were hard hit. The US had a agricultural depression right before the real depression, Italy was left disatisfied, both the French and British colonies started becoming more automous, and there were a few booming industries although those were leading to a economy that was a bit top heavy. Nationalism and Revolutionaries....sheesh... all them problems.

[Condottiero]

I'm going to say that if a war spreads to minor powers if the British put themselves on the side of the Mauris against the Draka it would bring more allies to their side. For one the Mauris have ties to the Austral Confederation, which at least intails support for the Mauri cause. Secondly the Austral Confederation is tied into a contract with the Americans, and if I see where this is going I see a Mauriafrica-British-French-American alignment, against an Austrian-German-Russo-Drakan entente.

Germany would provide the highest threat to the Netherlands which are tied into the British and the US. GB declares war on behalf of the Netherlands and the US, which results in the activation of the Draka-German Alliance and the Austro-German alliance. The French would also fight on the side of the Dutch if this was the case. The Mauriafricans would most likely be stirred to help the Pact Americania.And well you see where my little powder keg would start...

China would side with the Austrians and the Russians, what about Japan and Persia? I suppose Persia would go after Draka and Austria too.

[Glen]

Mauriafrica-British-French-American-Canadian-Ablioner-New Granadan-Austral-Karelian allies against an Austrian-German-Russo-Drakan-Persian-Chinese-Japanese-Armenian-Skandistani pact.

Navarre and the Papal States attempt their best imitations of Switzerland.

This is certainly one possible way the world might split....

[perdedor99]

Mauriafrica-British-French-American-Canadian-Ablioner-New Granadan-Austral-Karelian allies against an Austrian-German-Russo-Drakan-Persian-Chinese-Japanese-Armenian-Skandistani pact.

Navarre and the Papal States attempt their best imitations of Switzerland.

This is certainly one possible way the world might split....

Way out of their league for the Continental Alliance. I stay out of the Netherlands and Suez so we just not activate alliances. And if IIRC one of the last post by Condi said the relationship between the Australs and the Mauri are been kinda of cool lately due to their annexation of Mauribrasil. The plan should be to keep the American nations out of it until the time to face them. US will be difficult due to Suez but the rest are bound to help in case of an attack in american soil, not Europe. I see New Granada and the Australs at least playing the role of US from 1914 to 1917. Neutrals but friendly to one side.

In regard to Navarre. The Queen is married to the King of Austria? If so, I don't see France or the Mauris letting that nation survive long. Even declaring neutrality they are a dangerous threat to the flank of France and also the area under their control is the mining and ship building areas of OTL Spain. The resources could be helpfull to any side in a case of war.

[Othniel]

Way out of their league for the Continental Alliance. I stay out of the Netherlands and Suez so we just not activate alliances. And if IIRC one of the last post by Condi said the relationship between the Australs and the Mauri are been kinda of cool lately due to their annexation of Mauribrasil. The plan should be to keep the American nations out of it until the time to face them. US will be difficult due to Suez but the rest are bound to help in case of an attack in american soil, not Europe. I see New Granada and the Australs at least playing the role of US from 1914 to 1917. Neutrals but friendly to one side.

In regard to Navarre. The Queen is married to the King of Austria? If so, I don't see France or the Mauris letting that nation survive long. Even declaring neutrality they are a dangerous threat to the flank of France and also the area under their control is the mining and ship building areas of OTL Spain. The resources could be helpfull to any side in a case of war.
Many of the Mauris would push to support Mauriafrica. A good portion are still loyal since they were simply granted independance instead of fighting for it.

[Aussey]

...In regard to Navarre. The Queen is married to the King of Austria?...

The Queen, a minor, is married to the Crown Prince of the Habsburg Empire...

[perdedor99]

Many of the Mauris would push to support Mauriafrica. A good portion are still loyal since they were simply granted independance instead of fighting for it.
Still I don't think it will be on the best interests of the Australs to get involved in a major war like this. I see them with the New Granadiens like something analog to OTL US.

[perdedor99]

The Queen, a minor, is married to the Crown Prince of the Habsburg Empire...

And that put that nation in a dangerous situation.

[Othniel]

Still I don't think it will be on the best interests of the Australs to get involved in a major war like this. I see them with the New Granadiens like something analog to OTL US.
You forget Mauribasil is only a 80 year old millitary colony. About a fifth of the total population is going to be crying to supply and upgrade the African population American side. I see in the event of a prolonged war that we might have the analongy of Brazil's entry into the war rather than the US's. They needed less provaction although sent a little less in terms of men.

[Aussey]

And that put that nation in a dangerous situation.

Especially since they are between Mauriafrican-controlled Castile, and France. So that is why they would stay neutral, as it would be hard to be aided by the Habsburgs, who couldn't get to them soon enough...

[perdedor99]

You forget Mauribasil is only a 80 year old millitary colony. About a fifth of the total population is going to be crying to supply and upgrade the African population American side. I see in the event of a prolonged war that we might have the analongy of Brazil's entry into the war rather than the US's. They needed less provaction although sent a little less in terms of men.

Mauri brasil is just a part of a bigger nation and they are a minority in that nation. Just a fifth of the total population as you say and the less advanced area at that. As i say must likely the will play the US in WW1. They will give supplies and support but no real military help except for commerce and your nation paying in money or in loans.

[perdedor99]

Especially since they are between Mauriafrican-controlled Castile, and France. So that is why they would stay neutral, as it would be hard to be aided by the Habsburgs, who couldn't get to them soon enough...

they will stay neutral, but do the French know that or the mauris? You just assume that by saying they are neutral they will not be attacked. But the nations in ME7 don't read the threads. They just will assume that due to the close relationship between Navarre and Austria they will eventually turn in favor of them and they have to be dealt with. Just follow strategy and geopolitics. having a possible enemy to your rear while facing two powers on front is not good news at all for France. Must likely they will carve up Navarre with the Mauris and who knows the British will get involved due to the Navarran Navy in their supply routes.

[Imajin]

But of course, invading a neutral nation is going to hurt relations with other neutral nations with ties to Austria...

[Othniel]

I don't attack until I know if their attacking.

[perdedor99]

But of course, invading a neutral nation is going to hurt relations with other neutral nations with ties to Austria...

In a major war you have to deal with survival. They have to weight the chances. They maybe not do it, but if I was France I cover my back. And I can see the Mauris trying to reunite the Kingdom of Spain under their protection.

[Matt]

Ways to keep the Americas out of the war(for those who are clueless)

If fighting Britain, do not threaten Suez or Gibraltor.

Do not invade the Netherlands.

[Imajin]

In a major war you have to deal with survival. They have to weight the chances. They maybe not do it, but if I was France I cover my back. And I can see the Mauris trying to reunite the Kingdom of Spain under their protection.
"Alright, let's see, Navarre would be a threat if we get into a war with them."

"I've got it! We invade Navarre and get into a war with them!"

[perdedor99]

I don't attack until I know if their attacking.

so you join an invasion? Is Ok. That nation will tie a lot of troops by just staying neutral. Aussey, can you post the size of their military? That can give an idea of how many less troops you will be facing from France and MauriAfrica.

If you don't protect your borders you're setting yourself to get sucker punched by someone.

[perdedor99]

"Alright, let's see, Navarre would be a threat if we get into a war with them."

"I've got it! We invade Navarre and get into a war with them!"


France must likely will be facing Austria. The crown prince of Austria is married to the queen of Navarre. Will you like to be fighting someone and having his in-law on your back saying I will not do nothing, go ahead fight him.
I don't know you but I will be very nervous.

[perdedor99]

Ways to keep the Americas out of the war(for those who are clueless)

If fighting Britain, do not threaten Suez or Gibraltor.

Do not invade the Netherlands.

I think the US will join the war. Suez will be under threat from the very beginning in my opinion. Netherlands and Gibraltar are easy to stay away but Suez I don't think will happen.

[perdedor99]

France must likely will be facing Austria. The crown prince of Austria is married to the queen of Navarre. Will you like to be fighting someone and having his in-law on your back saying I will not do nothing, go ahead fight him.
I don't know you but I will be very nervous.

Navarre will be easy to crush. They are surrounded by hostiles and have no way to go. The goals are to neutralize them, not conquer them. Maybe demilitarization and join the war on the French side as terms?

[Aussey]

Navarre will be easy to crush. They are surrounded by hostiles and have no way to go. The goals are to neutralize them, not conquer them. Maybe demilitarization and join the war on the French side as terms?

Their navy, their ENTIRE navy...is 15 ships. Their army is about 100,000 men, who also are the Police Force. They will be neutral. As Neutral As Possible, not being friendly with EITHER side...

[Aussey]

"Alright, let's see, Navarre would be a threat if we get into a war with them."

"I've got it! We invade Navarre and get into a war with them!"

Now if France or Mauri invades Navarre without a reason besides "Your Queen is married to their Heir" then they'll get a taste, no, a whole helping of the Imperial Alliance.

I'll post Navarre's stats....they arent large...at all....

[Othniel]

I do see Russia as having the possiblity of shifting....

[perdedor99]

I do see Russia as having the possiblity of shifting....

As Draka does too.

[Othniel]

One major loss and Russia could find itself in historical termoil.

[perdedor99]

One major loss and Russia could find itself in historical termoil.

Don't think so. It tooked 3 years of major defeats for the Russians to fall in WW1. And the logistics are on the Russian's side this time.

[Glen]

Way out of their league for the Continental Alliance. I stay out of the Netherlands and Suez so we just not activate alliances.

If the war involves the Brits, Suez is going to be a vital military objective. It essentially severs the connection between the British and their Colonies.

Would the world really fear the Americans so much that they would avoid that strip of valuable real estate?

And if IIRC one of the last post by Condi said the relationship between the Australs and the Mauri are been kinda of cool lately due to their annexation of Mauribrasil.

Actually, I thought it was due to the Mauriafrican occupation of Iberia, but I might be wrong. And quite frankly, when it is emphasized that the Castilian faction was plotting an assassination of the Mauriafrican King to frame Navarre to bring Mauriafrica in on the Castilian side, it is going to be hard for anyone to be too upset about it. Still, I think that Mauriafrica's best bet is to get out of there as much as possible. And Maurbrasil wasn't annexed, they formed a confederation with other South American nations. Not really the same thing.

The plan should be to keep the American nations out of it until the time to face them.

You mean WWII? ;)

US will be difficult due to Suez but the rest are bound to help in case of an attack in american soil, not Europe. I see New Granada and the Australs at least playing the role of US from 1914 to 1917. Neutrals but friendly to one side.

Quite possible.

In regard to Navarre. The Queen is married to the King of Austria?

No, to the Hapsburg Emperor's brother, I think.

If so, I don't see France or the Mauris letting that nation survive long. Even declaring neutrality they are a dangerous threat to the flank of France and also the area under their control is the mining and ship building areas of OTL Spain. The resources could be helpfull to any side in a case of war.

Good points. However, attacking neutral nations also is bad in terms of PR, and can bring in other nations from time to time. But Navarre would be in a tough spot, no doubt. However, Aussey has indicated that they will have their own foreign policy. Maybe Navarre decides the safest thing is to join with Navarre and France. They've had good relations with France since 1886, and they also have some marriage alliances with Mauribrasil as well as Hapsburg, and they gained some from Mauri's war with Castille. Further, maybe they aren't too fond of the Hapsburgs anyway for knocking up their teenage queen in the first place. It was sorta a shotgun wedding in that sense.

[Othniel]

Don't think so. It tooked 3 years of major defeats for the Russians to fall in WW1. And the logistics are on the Russian's side this time.
True but two major defeats (Crimea and Japan) set the stage for distatisfaction that would cause the termoil. Also if they find themselves against either the Austrians or the British they will find themselves cut off from many supplies.

[Glen]

You forget Mauribasil is only a 80 year old millitary colony. About a fifth of the total population is going to be crying to supply and upgrade the African population American side. I see in the event of a prolonged war that we might have the analongy of Brazil's entry into the war rather than the US's. They needed less provaction although sent a little less in terms of men.

Or we could see a huge Mauribasil 'Volunteer' force with the Australs staying neutral.

[Othniel]

Or we could see a huge Mauribasil 'Volunteer' force with the Australs staying neutral.
Possible, but those would be mostly veterans fighting the old style. The mBEF will have to wait for a while.

[perdedor99]

True but two major defeats (Crimea and Japan) set the stage for distatisfaction that would cause the termoil. Also if they find themselves against either the Austrians or the British they will find themselves cut off from many supplies.

That was wars. And with close to forty years difference. I can live with them changing sides in 40 years. I don't think we will see them facing the Austrians. It will be suicidal for the Austrians to face the Russians. And IIRC Aussey mentioned they have a three emperors alliance between the Confederation, Austria and the Russians.

The ones with supply problems are the British. They have no realistic way to keep communications between India and the Home Isles except thru Canada or the Panama Canal. Traffic thru the Med will be as dangerous as OTL WW2.

[Aussey]

Good points. However, attacking neutral nations also is bad in terms of PR, and can bring in other nations from time to time. But Navarre would be in a tough spot, no doubt. However, Aussey has indicated that they will have their own foreign policy. Maybe Navarre decides the safest thing is to join with Navarre and France. They've had good relations with France since 1886, and they also have some marriage alliances with Mauribrasil as well as Hapsburg, and they gained some from Mauri's war with Castille. Further, maybe they aren't too fond of the Hapsburgs anyway for knocking up their teenage queen in the first place. It was sorta a shotgun wedding in that sense.

It really just depends. Navarre has a tradition of not going to war in "The Name of the Sovereign" when their is a Regency. And we have a regency for the next few years. And, if you people want a scandal, the Navarran Queen's baby might not be her new husbands child :eek:

[Glen]

That was wars. And with close to forty years difference. I can live with them changing sides in 40 years. I don't think we will see them facing the Austrians. It will be suicidal for the Austrians to face the Russians. And IIRC Aussey mentioned they have a three emperors alliance between the Confederation, Austria and the Russians.

The ones with supply problems are the British. They have no realistic way to keep communications between India and the Home Isles except thru Canada or the Panama Canal. Traffic thru the Med will be as dangerous as OTL WW2.


Not necessarily. At first, yes, but if they score a major victory against the Hapsburg Navy early on and are allied with Mauriafrica, then the two of them will pretty much own the Med between them. It is Suez that is the weakpoint.

[Aussey]

And IIRC Aussey mentioned they have a three emperors alliance between the Confederation, Austria and the Russians.


Russia has declined to form the Imperial Alliance (German Confederation and Habsburg Empire) into a three emperor league. It will be formed, however, wither either or both the Oriental emeprors....

[perdedor99]

Not necessarily. At first, yes, but if they score a major victory against the Hapsburg Navy early on and are allied with Mauriafrica, then the two of them will pretty much own the Med between them. It is Suez that is the weakpoint.

the point is mout. a conquest of aden and british east africa will make Suez completely useless. And with no bases to supply their ships the eastern med is of the alliance.

[perdedor99]

Russia has declined to form the Imperial Alliance (German Confederation and Habsburg Empire) into a three emperor league. It will be formed, however, wither either or both the Oriental emeprors....

Putting that nations still on the Russian side.

[Glen]

the point is mout. a conquest of aden and british east africa will make Suez completely useless. And with no bases to supply their ships the eastern med is of the alliance.

Conquering both Aden and British East Africa will be likely more difficult than seizing the Suez.

And the UK has bases in the Eastern Med.

[perdedor99]

Conquering both Aden and British East Africa will be likely more difficult than seizing the Suez.

And the UK has bases in the Eastern Med.

Actually Aden will be easy to conquer. The advantage in numbers alone between Persia and the British will be having more pressing concerns, like India, Greece, Scandinavia, etc.

[Glen]

Actually Aden will be easy to conquer. The advantage in numbers alone between Persia and the British will be having more pressing concerns, like India, Greece, Scandinavia, etc.

But Aden is vital to those concerns, to keeping open the links between the Empire. There are a LOT of native troops in India, so the advantage in numbers actually should go to the British Empire in that region. So much so, in fact, I would expect to see a lot of Indian troops ending up in East Africa and Aden. Now, some of those troops will be Islamic, but they may not find the Persians that appealing still to make a fuss.

[Aussey]

The Suez is SOOO tempting though :rolleyes:

[perdedor99]

But Aden is vital to those concerns, to keeping open the links between the Empire. There are a LOT of native troops in India, so the advantage in numbers actually should go to the British Empire in that region. So much so, in fact, I would expect to see a lot of Indian troops ending up in East Africa and Aden. Now, some of those troops will be Islamic, but they may not find the Persians that appealing still to make a fuss.

But India share a border with Persia and the more troops than leave for East Africa the less troops than have to face Persians and Russians in western India. Also the Persian calling their Islamic borhters to join in the liberation of their country will have some appeal to some, even to the Sikh. The Sikh were just defeated about 50 years before so the memory of being free is a possibiltiy.

[Glen]

But India share a border with Persia and the more troops than leave for East Africa the less troops than have to face Persians and Russians in western India. Also the Persian calling their Islamic borhters to join in the liberation of their country will have some appeal to some, even to the Sikh. The Sikh were just defeated about 50 years before so the memory of being free is a possibiltiy.

Maybe, but the fact is these troops stayed loyal through OTL WWI, and the Islamic Ottomans were on the Central side (eventually). The Persians are more closely related to the Indians, but that may not help them.

And there are a LOT of troops there, p99, more than enough to hold the Persian frontier AND send reinforcement to Africa and Aden.

Plus, those are all 'modern' people in India. Most of the territory of this Persian Empire is 1400 CE. Granted, the Persian part isn't, but what do they really have available in Arabia? If they move those troops from Persia to there, then THEY lose the homeland to the British Indian army. If they don't then they won't be likely to take Aden.

No, Suez is the target with the least investment for the most value. It's a postage stamp wedged between Austrian Egypt and Persian Palestine. The British will have it heavily reinforced, but there's only so many men you can fit in there. If there is to be an attempt to close off the Red Sea, it will be there.

[Imajin]

Britain will probably find it hard to expand too much into Persia... Much of the border is heavily montainous and most likely heavily fortified as well.

[perdedor99]

Britain will probably find it hard to expand too much into Persia... Much of the border is heavily montainous and most likely heavily fortified as well.

exactly, and dont' forget the Russians. And read the military post. With the Camel Corps you have and maybe five divisions you have close to 100,000 men to take Aden. Plus trains have been build. read the fast forward threads. Add twelve reserve divisions and still they have close to half a million men to hold the border with India and them the Russians could be coming. On the contrary. I see the British Indian Army holding their own not to get invaded.

[Glen]

Britain will probably find it hard to expand too much into Persia... Much of the border is heavily montainous and most likely heavily fortified as well.

However, they have in their ranks some rather hardy mountain fighters.

But you may be right. Bulg might settle for some minor incursions for better defensive lines and then just hold the line there.

[Glen]

exactly, and dont' forget the Russians. And read the military post. With the Camel Corps you have and maybe five divisions you have close to 100,000 men to take Aden.

These would be the troops some of which the Brits have trained and I am certain they are very well aware of? I wonder how many troops Bulg has in Aden and East Africa already?

And those Camel Corps if they ride into battle will be cut down as easily as the horse Cavalry will. And if the Camels are just for getting there, that's fine but they still are going to have to deal with dug in troops I imagine on the defensive with very long, very dry, lines of communication, which will be vulnerable to airship attack (not that Bulg has very many of those, a mistake I fear).

Plus trains have been build.

Do those trains go all the way to Aden?

read the fast forward threads. Add twelve reserve divisions and still they have close to half a million men to hold the border with India and them the Russians could be coming. On the contrary. I see the British Indian Army holding their own not to get invaded.

The Indian Army is going to be very large as well, certainly larger than anything the Persians can muster, if for no other reason than their rather large population base. And the Russians are going to have some boogying to do if they choose to ally with Persia and attack on that front. Last I heard the bulk of their forces were still stationed in the East pacifying things. And if the Japanese don't ally with the Russians, whether they look down on them or not, they are going to leave a substantial force in the East, if for no other reason than to match body counts roughly.

[perdedor99]

this is the size of the Indian army in 1914

This historical order of battle is by Dr. Graham Watson

In 1914 the British military force in India was made up of units of the British Army and of the Indian Army. The two armies were mixed together in the same command structure to provide a field force and forces for internal security duties.

The British Army provided 6,056 cavalry, 17,140 artillery, 165 engineers and 77,075 infantry.

The Indian Army consisted of 24,854 cavalry, 3,104 artillery, 4,877 engineers and 141,890 infantry

This combined force provided a field force of 9 infantry divisions and 8 cavalry brigades to defend the Indian subcontinent from the threat of Russian invasion via Afghanistan and the North-West Frontier. Units surplus to the requirements of the field force were employed on internal security duties throughout India. In peacetime, the internal security troops came under the command of the divisions and brigades of the field force. There was no formal provision for the use of troops in the defence of other parts of the British Empire, although Britain expected India to provide at least two infantry divisions for service outside the subcontinent: by 1914 such divisions had not been nominated or trained.

Smaller than anything the Persians have at the time and they have to police the entire Inida and cover the borders plusthey have been having some problems in Sumatra according to Bulg.

[Glen]

this is the size of the Indian army in 1914

This historical order of battle is by Dr. Graham Watson

In 1914 the British military force in India was made up of units of the British Army and of the Indian Army. The two armies were mixed together in the same command structure to provide a field force and forces for internal security duties.

The British Army provided 6,056 cavalry, 17,140 artillery, 165 engineers and 77,075 infantry.

The Indian Army consisted of 24,854 cavalry, 3,104 artillery, 4,877 engineers and 141,890 infantry

This combined force provided a field force of 9 infantry divisions and 8 cavalry brigades to defend the Indian subcontinent from the threat of Russian invasion via Afghanistan and the North-West Frontier. Units surplus to the requirements of the field force were employed on internal security duties throughout India. In peacetime, the internal security troops came under the command of the divisions and brigades of the field force. There was no formal provision for the use of troops in the defence of other parts of the British Empire, although Britain expected India to provide at least two infantry divisions for service outside the subcontinent: by 1914 such divisions had not been nominated or trained.

Smaller than anything the Persians have at the time and they have to police the entire Inida and cover the borders plusthey have been having some problems in Sumatra according to Bulg.

So about a fifth of the Persian Army will be available for invading Aden?

And what were the 1914 numbers for the Ottoman Empire and Persia (best estimate I guess, though the 1400 areas are going to be a lot less populated than they were OTL late 19th century)? Were they also about half a million, or is the Persian forces a substantial departure from OTL numbers for the region?

If they are, then I assume that there has been a concommitant buildup by the British in the area. I don't imagine them fancying a half a million man army on the border of the Crown Jewel of the Empire without something to balance those numbers with, even if they were on friendly terms. Well, since Bulg still hasn't posted his numbers, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[perdedor99]

So about a fifth of the Persian Army will be available for invading Aden?

And what were the 1914 numbers for the Ottoman Empire and Persia (best estimate I guess, though the 1400 areas are going to be a lot less populated than they were OTL late 19th century)? Were they also about half a million, or is the Persian forces a substantial departure from OTL numbers for the region?

If they are, then I assume that there has been a concommitant buildup by the British in the area. I don't imagine them fancying a half a million man army on the border of the Crown Jewel of the Empire without something to balance those numbers with, even if they were on friendly terms. Well, since Bulg still hasn't posted his numbers, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

agree on that. Still that forces need to be ferry thru hostile waters. will not be easy.

[Glen]

agree on that. Still that forces need to be ferry thru hostile waters. will not be easy.

Not easy, true. But that is where the big Navy Bulg is always going on about comes in handy...

[Glen]

Okay, while I understand that this need not hold up in the actual unfolding of our Great War drama, if we were, however, to just go by the web of alliances (some of which are pretty tenuous), then the sides might look something like this. I have put them in alphabetical order to avoid squabbles over precedent, and only included independent nations.

Armenia-Trebizond
China-Philippines
Draka
France
German Confederation
Hapsburg
Japan
Karelia
Russia

versus

Austral Confederation
British Empire
Canada
Mauriafrica
New Ablion
New Granada

neutrals

Navarre
Papal States
Skandistani free state (can't recall its name)

With such a line-up, the main European theatres would be Anatolia, Balkans, Netherlands, Spain, and Scandinavia. All of Africa would be a charnal house. There would also be fighting in the Arabian Peninsula and Central Asia. The British and American-Canadian enclaves in China would also be seriously in trouble.

The Indian Ocean will be a British/Am-Can lake, but there will be extensive fighting in the Atlantic, Mediterranean and Pacific. The Black Sea will belong to the Russians/A-T/Hapsburgs. The Red Sea will flow red with blood.

[Ward]

Okay, while I understand that this need not hold up in the actual unfolding of our Great War drama, if we were, however, to just go by the web of alliances (some of which are pretty tenuous), then the sides might look something like this. I have put them in alphabetical order to avoid squabbles over precedent, and only included independent nations.

Armenia-Trebizond
China-Philippines
Draka
France
German Confederation
Hapsburg
Japan
Karelia
Russia

versus

Austral Confederation
British Empire
Canada
Mauriafrica
New Ablion
New Granada

neutrals

Navarre
Papal States
Skandistani free state (can't recall its name)



France would be neutral if Presia attacks the UK .

[Glen]

France would be neutral if Presia attacks the UK .
France would go to war if the Netherlands attack against the attacker

Which brings up the next point. All these agreements, treaties, and alliances are very careful by and large to specify defense and if attacked.

Of course, the problem is, who decides who attacked whom?

For example, in WWI...

Austria-Hungary's heir was attacked by a Serb. Then A-H made demands on Serbia regarding this attack that the Serbs did not agree to. So A-H went to war. Germany was allied with A-H so ostensibly went to war to 'defend' A-H. Russia went to war to 'defend' Serbia.

Who attacked whom, and what is defined as 'attack' and 'defense'?

You say France will go to war if the Netherlands is attacked against the attacker? Let's say that the British sink a Hapsburg ship in the Aegean (accident I'm sure). The Hapsburgs attack Suez, leading the USA to enter the war. The German Confederation is bound to Hapsburg by treaty, so attacks into Netherlands. Does this mean that you attack the Germans?

[perdedor99]

Which brings up the next point. All these agreements, treaties, and alliances are very careful by and large to specify defense and if attacked.

Of course, the problem is, who decides who attacked whom?

For example, in WWI...

Austria-Hungary's heir was attacked by a Serb. Then A-H made demands on Serbia regarding this attack that the Serbs did not agree to. So A-H went to war. Germany was allied with A-H so ostensibly went to war to 'defend' A-H. Russia went to war to 'defend' Serbia.

Who attacked whom, and what is defined as 'attack' and 'defense'?

You say France will go to war if the Netherlands is attacked against the attacker? Let's say that the British sink a Hapsburg ship in the Aegean (accident I'm sure). The Hapsburgs attack Suez, leading the USA to enter the war. The German Confederation is bound to Hapsburg by treaty, so attacks into Netherlands. Does this mean that you attack the Germans?
Like WW1 you declare war you are the one doing the attacking, someone declare war to you, you were attacked.

[Othniel]

Reasonably yes, France would be bound to attack Germany in defense of the Netherlands. Mauriafrica at this point would be nuetral though as long as Crete was attacked by nether the Austrians or the British.

[Ward]

Which brings up the next point. All these agreements, treaties, and alliances are very careful by and large to specify defense and if attacked.

Of course, the problem is, who decides who attacked whom?

For example, in WWI...

Austria-Hungary's heir was attacked by a Serb. Then A-H made demands on Serbia regarding this attack that the Serbs did not agree to. So A-H went to war. Germany was allied with A-H so ostensibly went to war to 'defend' A-H. Russia went to war to 'defend' Serbia.

Who attacked whom, and what is defined as 'attack' and 'defense'?

You say France will go to war if the Netherlands is attacked against the attacker? Let's say that the British sink a Hapsburg ship in the Aegean (accident I'm sure). The Hapsburgs attack Suez, leading the USA to enter the war. The German Confederation is bound to Hapsburg by treaty, so attacks into Netherlands. Does this mean that you attack the Germans?



The Same as The UK did When Belgiam was attacked in WWI .
We will defend the Netherlands with troops this dose not mean we will attack Germany .

[Aussey]

Reasonably yes, France would be bound to attack Germany in defense of the Netherlands. Mauriafrica at this point would be nuetral though as long as Crete was attacked by nether the Austrians or the British.

Looking at the size of Mauriafrica's army, I can easily see a Creten Autonomous Region as part of the Kingdom of Macedonia in the near future. Or it becoming a county of the Province of Alexandria.... :D :eek: :rolleyes:

[Othniel]

Looking at the size of Mauriafrica's army, I can easily see a Creten Autonomous Region as part of the Kingdom of Macedonia in the near future. Or it becoming a county of the Province of Alexandria.... :D :eek: :rolleyes:
That would be a bad move. We are the armor.

[Othniel]

And I could not see the Austrians being able to rely upon the Egyptians if the French or British or involved....much less the PErsians.

[perdedor99]

That would be a bad move. We are the armor.

at the most you have 1,000 tankettes. and tankettes can't cross oceans and they are difficult to land. Not a lot of choices you have to help the Cretans.

[Othniel]

at the most you have 1,000 tankettes. and tankettes can't cross oceans and they are difficult to land. Not a lot of choices you have to help the Cretans.
It's a well defended Island. We have ships capable of being a nussance. Remeber the old Scyth ships? We can just clip one of those one, and let it go...

[perdedor99]

It's a well defended Island. We have ships capable of being a nussance. Remeber the old Scyth ships? We can just clip one of those one, and let it go...

that old scyth ship will be blow out of the water by any normal cruiser before they even get close. Sorry to say they are useless.

[Othniel]

that old scyth ship will be blow out of the water by any normal cruiser before they even get close. Sorry to say they are useless.
They have more armor than the modren day ships. They are an excellent platform.

[perdedor99]

They have more armor than the modren day ships. They are an excellent platform.

and no gun. No ship will resist the punishment of artillery for too long and if they have as much armor as you're saying they must be slow as hell. Moving practice targets for the enemy fleets. So nice of you to hell the gunnery skills of your enemies.

[Othniel]

and no gun. No ship will resist the punishment of artillery for too long and if they have as much armor as you're saying they must be slow as hell. Moving practice targets for the enemy fleets. So nice of you to hell the gunnery skills of your enemies.
They have guns. If you looked in the picture they had civil war cannons in the underdeck.

[perdedor99]

They have guns. If you looked in the picture they had civil war cannons in the underdeck.

Not even the range of fire or the range of a modern gun. They will be blow out of the water even before they get too close. Sorry to say they are useless except as suicide ships to attack in mass an invading force. Cretan Kamikaze?

[Aussey]

I wouldnt expect the Brits or Francos. We're not allied with them. I could easily take it on myself. And if I needed help, the Armenians, Germans, and actually, maybe the Persians.... :o

[Othniel]

Not even the range of fire or the range of a modern gun. They will be blow out of the water even before they get too close. Sorry to say they are useless except as suicide ships to attack in mass an invading force. Cretan Kamikaze?
They're real effect was to used as a grapping, quickly heading out, scything into the bow and then having the gunpowder chamber explode. They were secondly used as an easy target for land based artillary so as to help guild cannon fire against the enemy.

[Othniel]

I wouldnt expect the Brits or Francos. We're not allied with them. I could easily take it on myself. And if I needed help, the Armenians, Germans, and actually, maybe the Persians.... :o
No, I'm saying you'll lose Egypt if you go against both at the same time.

[Aussey]

They're real effect was to used as a grapping, quickly heading out, scything into the bow and then having the gunpowder chamber explode. They were secondly used as an easy target for land based artillary so as to help guild cannon fire against the enemy.

I have the entire Imperial Navy in the region. We surrond it on the north and south side, with a neutral east side. and we have it on the west side (Naples-Sicily) we could get there, over take, occupay, and be prepared before Mauriafrican ships even get there...

[Glen]

Like WW1 you declare war you are the one doing the attacking, someone declare war to you, you were attacked.

So the US attacked Germany in WWI? They declared war first IIRC.

[Aussey]

No, I'm saying you'll lose Egypt if you go against both at the same time.

How? You think the few soldier in Suez could overtake the Imperial Army? And the French arent even in the region. You are forgetting this: I AM THE BALKAN POWER, MY ENTIRE NAVY IS STATIONED WITHIN THE AREA EAST OF SICILY....

[Othniel]

I have the entire Imperial Navy in the region. We surrond it on the north and south side, with a neutral east side. and we have it on the west side (Naples-Sicily) we could get there, over take, occupay, and be prepared before Mauriafrican ships even get there...
Then you'd get blindsided in Scily. Without most of your imperial navy you'd lose right off the bat. I work in small numbers for a reason. Big armies tend to fall apart when they are left without leaders.

[Othniel]

How? You think the few soldier in Suez could overtake the Imperial Army? And the French arent even in the region. You are forgetting this: I AM THE BALKAN POWER, MY ENTIRE NAVY IS STATIONED WITHIN THE AREA EAST OF SICILY....
You think you can keep Egypt with an opening that big? Your bound to have a rebellion.

[perdedor99]

They're real effect was to used as a grapping, quickly heading out, scything into the bow and then having the gunpowder chamber explode. They were secondly used as an easy target for land based artillary so as to help guild cannon fire against the enemy.

i know waht the scythe is used for, the problem is they are obsolete and too slowto do that. You maybe lose close to 10 ships for every one that actually do it job. Very close to kamikaze to me. The casualties will be terrible in comparison to the gains. IMO the 1899 version of a kamikaze plane.

[Aussey]

Then you'd get blindsided in Scily. Without most of your imperial navy you'd lose right off the bat. I work in small numbers for a reason. Big armies tend to fall apart when they are left without leaders.

Where the hell did you get there are no leaders? I could overtake your entire pile-of-sand you call a nation with just ONE ally...

[perdedor99]

So the US attacked Germany in WWI? They declared war first IIRC.

yes, US attacked Germany if we use this rationale.

[Othniel]

i know waht the scythe is used for, the problem is they are obsolete and too slowto do that. You maybe lose close to 10 ships for every one that actually do it job. Very close to kamikaze to me. The casualties will be terrible in comparison to the gains. IMO the 1899 version of a kamikaze plane.
That was their purpose. although most are being reused as targets somebody got the idea of the using them as a minefield in the event of war.

[Othniel]

Where the hell did you get there are no leaders? I could overtake your entire pile-of-sand you call a nation with just ONE ally...
Nope, my pile of sand is my ally. You don't realise that my entire nation can hide. My pile of sand is able to locate weaknesses. My pile of sand knows the Geography. My pile of sand knows where you sleep at night. My pile of sand knows what your officers wear. My pile of sand is prepared to give you no quarter, poison your water sources and cut our losses. My pile of sand is the upstart nation you won't be expecting to outperform you with weapons from every era. My pile of sand is able to cut you off.

[perdedor99]

Nope, my pile of sand is my ally. You don't realise that my entire nation can hide. My pile of sand is able to locate weaknesses. My pile of sand knows the Geography. My pile of sand knows where you sleep at night. My pile of sand knows what your officers wear. My pile of sand is prepared to give you no quarter, poison your water sources and cut our losses. My pile of sand is the upstart nation you won't be expecting to outperform you with weapons from every era. My pile of sand is able to cut you off.

So pretty much destroy your own nation in the process? All Austria need to do is keep close to the coast and take Tunisia and Algeria whil