View Full Version : AH Challenge-Papal States Superpower
January 11th, 2004, 04:58 AM
An ATL where the Papal States is a Superpower in the present. The POD can be anytime after 1200. The Pope should still be the main or titular head but it can NOT be a theocracy
January 11th, 2004, 05:05 AM
Just to clarify. Do you mean a conventional superpower (i.e. economy and military) or a superpower in terms of influence? Because, the Vatican and Catholic Church even to this day are one of the most powerful and influential groups in the world. I mean, think about the power they wield over uneducated devotees in Latin America and around the world. Hell, the Pope was a major contributor to the downfall of the SU. Look at what he did in Poland.
January 11th, 2004, 08:41 AM
Hell, the Pope was a major contributor to the downfall of the SU. Look what he did in Poland.
I don't think that was due solely to him being Pope, though. It was the combination of being Polish and Pope that gave him influence and an international forum. Really, who'd listen seriously to an Italian Pope talking about the ills of Poland? It's like an American suburbanite talking about the plight of Chinese peasants - sure, his heart might be in the right place, but does he speak from a position of authority? In the case of Pope John Paul, the answer was yes.
As far as the original question, I think there's at least a couple of good ways to arrive at your desired result, Nappy. But it depends on what you mean by 'superpower'. I don't think its possible to get a USSR/US style Papal superpower.
1)A stronger (and more ambitious) persona as Pope during the Napoleonic era might've decried Napoleon's tactics as inhumane and united Italy behind him. He probably would've shared authority with a securlar head of state. An Italy like this might be able to forge a very close alliance with Britain, and possibly gain African and/or Pacific colonies for itself in the 19th century.
2)A successful Ottoman invasion of lower Italy. Rome might voluntarily become a vassal of Spain or France in order to guarantee its protection from the 'heathen Turk'. As time passes, Rome and the Papal States might become the senior partner, assuming superpower status as it takes over control of its former 'parents' colonies.
January 11th, 2004, 11:21 AM
Walter-Economic and military, part of the idea is to speculate on a person holding extremely great temporal and spiritual power in the secular modern world.
Diamond-very interesting scenarios, the second makes one wonder how much the Avignon papacy might have been an opportunity as well as a captivity. As a Great Power its close to what I need but not quite, though I agree with you its probably impossible.
January 11th, 2004, 07:11 PM
Something I've always wondered-
Does the Vatican have an state religion?
January 11th, 2004, 10:35 PM
Yeah, its Shintoism. :D
January 12th, 2004, 02:32 AM
13XX AD Fredrick Bismark A leading General in Germany renouces his estates, & joins the Kights Templar. Discusted with the corruption he finds, he rises thru the ranks till he becomes Supreme Commander. At this point he undertakes a MAJOR reforming of the order. Such is his Charisma & reputation that the reforms are adopted by all the other military orders as well as his.
sunday Aug 0X 15?? Martin Luther nails his 22 point to the church door. Sept 14 the Pope dies, ML travels to Rome to attend the Convention.
Nov due to the talk about his points ML is elected Pope.
15??+1- ML undertakes reform of Catholic Church, No Lutherism, Church remains united.
15?? + ? Pope ML sents soldiers from the military orders to enforce his reforms.
Too get enuff soldiers the Orders enlist "Lay Brothers"
Within a 100 years the military orders have "Militias" larger than most national Armies. 400 years later they are the National armies, as the church uses it's Rite to pick Rulers [if they rule by Divine Rite, and the Church is the voice of the Divine......], to control All of Europe, and the World. :eek: :eek:
January 12th, 2004, 03:04 AM
Although I was raised Catholic, few ATLs make me as nervous as this one. - Good Job!
Since the Vatican used to have termporal power, it is even possible if handled right. However, you do have to deal with the problem of growing national consciousness from 1700 on.
January 12th, 2004, 05:22 AM
Well there probably wouldn't be "growing national consciousness". Mother church would take care of that- the church would be seen to be a power above any nation. Possibly this system could evolve to become a Catholic Commonwealth where local affairs are handled by the local governing and church authorities but Rome and Papal appointed authorities control all affairs above (shall we say) provincial level.
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