Ancient Greek PODs

[reformer]

I'm amazed at how few Greek TLs are out there. I'm not talking Byzantine or Byron. . . I'm talking Athens and Corinth and all that good stuff. Well, here are severall Greek PODs that I think would be fun toying with:

Mycinae doesn't fall: Instead of loosing to the Dorians, the Mycinaens use the invasion as an excuse to unify the rest of Greece under the common bond of protection. Instead of developing their own unique way of life, centered on the polis, the Greeks become more like another normall Empire. Chances are therey'd be an earlier confrontaion with the Persians or another earlier empire, and the Greeks would probably eventually loose. This TL would probably be the most likely possibility for Mesopotamia dominating Europe.

Dictators stay in Athens:
Well, Athens was a center of culture and understanding. But would that keep under a benevolent tyrant? Who would take over (lets forget about the butterflies for this one)? What would become of Socrates? Plato? Pericles? Alcibiades?

Persian Greece, bad edition:
One of the staples of Alternate History: Persia wins the Battle of Salamis or avoides it. Athens becomes the capital of a Persian satelite state. The aristocracy across Greece is thrown out. Many are sold into slavery. Western culture is snufed out pratically before it begins. Then Sparta, with the help of Corinth and Athens, wages a huge rebelion. Is it, or is it not, too late to save the western world in any form remotely similar to what we have today?

Persian Greece, good edition:
This is something that very few people have considered, but is a small possibility. The POD would be Marathon, not Salamis. After Greece is partially put under the yoke of Persian rule, the culture spreads, and an early Hellenistic age begins during the late 5th century B.C. The Persians were actually normally pretty benevolent, there's a chance that the Greeks actually become more powerful after this. A little like the Jews. This is a low possibility, but it would make an interesting TL. (especially if I used and earlier POD to make the Jews more powerful. Jewish culture vs. Greek culture in Persia. The old Zoroastrianism peeks through the cracks, so that the more Jewish groop views the Greek as absolute evil, and vice versa.) Again, very unlikely, but it would be different.

Pelloponesian Cold War
The war already has tons of similarities to the cold war. I'm not talking nuclear here or anything, but it would be fun to do a TL where you take Athens and Sparta vieying for Mediteranean controll to a new level. Longer. Bigger. More pluralised. Involving more powers. This is actually a pretty likely TL.

Demosthones unifies Greece
This is another farily likely POD. Under the threat of both Persia and Macedonia, Demosthones creats a Greek state which probably won't exspand as far as Alexander's empire, but would be culturally stronger and less corrupted, with elements of Democracy and the Polis remaining. Bassically the age of Greece wouldn't die out, and a state more ready to stand the test of time would be created. Rome would have less of a chance to defeat it. Same goes with Carthage and Persia. Pax Hellinistica, and this time its a real Greece, not a fake Greek like one like the ones that came after Alexander.

If anybody would actually be interested in one of these possibilities, please say so. I think I may be able to write up a real TL. But only if there's some interest.

[Cloudy Vortex]

Boy, you've been thinking this over, haven't you? ;)

I can't speak for others, but I'm just a wee bit Hellenophobic. The ancient Greeks just don't impress me. But I'll comment on all you're PODs. I just had to give that disclaimer earlier; I don't pretend to be without bias.

Mycinae doesn't fall: Now here's one. The fall of the Mycenaeans was a part of the XVth(?) Century catastophe. Other features were the Sea Peoples, the fall of, or at least heavy blow to, Hatti and Babylonia, collapse of the Hallstadt culture allowing for the rise of the La Tene Celts, and, perhaps most famously, the annihilation of the inland Canaanite cities by Habiru hordes. Survival of Mycenaean Hellas and the office of the wanax might do all sorts of unexpected things to the other events. We don't even know what happened to cause all this mess. (And it wasn't all in the XVth cent. It was over two- or three-hundred years.) The immediate factors, fall of Hallstadt and the shannanigans of the Sea Peoples, can't even be calculated too well because we know to little on how these systems interacted. Sorry, ask for someone with a better imagination. Or give me time to come up with something.

Dictators stay in Athens: TYRANTS: dictators were Roman.;) Sokrates or Aristokles Platon as tyrant? Surely you jest. Perikles held such prestige he might as well been a tyrant. Alkibiates would run Athens into the ground. There were a lot of weakness in Athenian democracy, but it was the best they could hope for.

Persian Greece, bad edition: The Greeks weren't the protoWesterners we often choose to see them as. Western civilization, which I call TransRoman, is a product of Roman, Celtic, and German interaction. Conquest of Greece by the shah wouldn't prevent TransRoman civilization, but would seriously augment it (and that's an understatement). A closer relation between Europe and the rest of Asia?

Persian Greece, good edition: A culture war? Being in a simular culture war between the fanatical and the hedonistic here in the States (I'm a fanatic), I fail to see how this could be good for anyone. The destruction of a way of life is usually preferrable to intercultural conflict within a society. The Assyrians didn't put the beat down on their subjugates' culture for no reason. Kurush rejected that policy. But the Jews wouldn't bother with culture war. The Jews (and Greeks) of this day were racist as hell. They respected the government, but regarded Gentiles with the same disdain that all peoples regarded each other. "Different isn't bad" is a new idea that goes against our instincts, which commands us to kill the weirdos before they eat our children. You'll be doing good to get the Greeks to leave Hellas, but the reopening of trade routes between Greece and Phoenicia will be the most you'll see of the Hellenes.

Pelloponesian Cold War Too easy.

Demosthones unifies Greece Hellenic League into Hellenic Confederation? Naw, once the threat was gone, the Greeks had to go for each other's throats. Interpolis conflict wasn't a feature of Greek culture, it was the central theme. You want a united Greece? Have to go at it like Makedon: utter conquest and the destruction of at least one polis. Don't like it? Tough, you wanted to deal with the Greeks and this is the only way to deal with these hardheads.

[Faeelin]

Persian Greece, bad edition:
One of the staples of Alternate History: Persia wins the Battle of Salamis or avoides it. Athens becomes the capital of a Persian satelite state. The aristocracy across Greece is thrown out. Many are sold into slavery. Western culture is snufed out pratically before it begins. Then Sparta, with the help of Corinth and Athens, wages a huge rebelion. Is it, or is it not, too late to save the western world in any form remotely similar to what we have today?


Hmm. Couple of things:

1) No matter what, the Greeks in Italy are free. So Greek culture isn't snuffed out.

2) The Persians had no problems ruling democracies; they actually set a couple up in Asia Minor. They'd prefer client kinds and the like, but they'd work with what was available.

3) Ionia did alright.

Persian Greece, good edition:
s. After Greece is partially put under the yoke of Persian rule, the culture spreads, and an early Hellenistic age begins during the late 5th century B.C. The Persians were actually normally pretty benevolent, there's a chance that the Greeks actually become more powerful after this.This is a low possibility, but it would make an interesting TL. (especially if I used and earlier POD to make the Jews more powerful. Jewish culture vs. Greek culture in Persia. The old Zoroastrianism peeks through the cracks, so that the more Jewish groop views the Greek as absolute evil, and vice versa.) Again, very unlikely, but it would be different.[/quote]

Or, perhaps, Socrates learns that only Ahura Mazda can teach virtue...

[Cloudy Vortex]

1) No matter what, the Greeks in Italy are free. So Greek culture isn't snuffed out.

Dangit! Figure you to think of what totally escaped my mind, Faeelin. But it only strengthens my argument of that POD.

[Leo Caesius]

2) The Persians had no problems ruling democracies; they actually set a couple up in Asia Minor. They'd prefer client kinds and the like, but they'd work with what was available.

3) Ionia did alright. There was, in fact, an academy on the island of Kos (then under Achaemenid rule) that produced some of the most famous physicians in that period - among them the great Hippocrates himself.

[Tynnin]

Persian Greece, good edition:
This is something that very few people have considered, but is a small possibility. The POD would be Marathon, not Salamis. After Greece is partially put under the yoke of Persian rule, the culture spreads, and an early Hellenistic age begins during the late 5th century B.C. The Persians were actually normally pretty benevolent, there's a chance that the Greeks actually become more powerful after this. A little like the Jews. This is a low possibility, but it would make an interesting TL. (especially if I used and earlier POD to make the Jews more powerful. Jewish culture vs. Greek culture in Persia. The old Zoroastrianism peeks through the cracks, so that the more Jewish groop views the Greek as absolute evil, and vice versa.) Again, very unlikely, but it would be different.

I just finished up a TL that plays with this theme (Persian Conquests).

[reformer]

Yay! Someone is actually doing a Greek TL! What is it called, and when will it be posted?

Of course Socrates wouldn't become a tyrant. . . I was wondering what fate he would meet under a tyranny. Putting these Athenians in a non Democratic atmoshere, and seeing what happens.

There was a strong movement towardes a unified Greece. If Demosthones took it to a greater exstent, he could create a seriously powerful smaller state that probably wouldn't conquer the known world, but would be thouroughtly Greek. My argument is that this would be the best outcome for Greece. It might, in fact, bring on a new golden age. I think I might right up this TL in fact.

[Grettir Asmundarsen]

Socrates was a fictional character created by Plato.

I've been a mulling an ATL for Pyrrhus, King of Epirus--the general who gave his name to the adjective 'pyrrhic,' as in "Pyrrhic victory." He could've sent for reinforcements and crushed Rome; instead he crushed only thier rivals and left them to assume full control of the Latin League when he saw more opportunity for loot in Sicily.

[carlton_bach]

Socrates was a fictional character created by Plato.


Did Plato also invent Xenophon? :)

[Grettir Asmundarsen]

Did Plato also invent Xenophon? :)


Xenophon borrowed the character to present his revolutionary views. Plato may have borrowed the character's name from Aristophanes, whose Socrates is a different character.

Granted, the majority of the reactionary and insular world of Greek Classicism claim that he was real, mainly because they don't want to admit to themselves that they've been studying ancient fiction all thier adult lives.

KILL THE POETS!

[reformer]

Actually, I've seen some pretty good evidence that Socrates was real. Also, they would love to exspose Socrates as a fake if they could. . . it would make them famous

[JHPier]

Mycenae doesn't fall: I think current thinking is that the Dorians only moved in from ca.1100 BC on when most of the damage had already been done. The problem is that the Mycenaeans were confronted with a downturn in climate: a Cold/Dry Period lasting til ca.300 BC that did in the Hittites as well (for details see: The long summer/ by Brian Fagan). That makes this WI a very hard one to pull off.
Cloudy Vortex: the Hallstatt culture ended in the late 6/early 5C BC. No connection with the fall of Mykenai/Sea Peoples.

Dictators stay in Athens: (Well the modern word is dictator.) Athens only became the center of Greek culture as a direct result of the Persian Wars. So if the Peisistratids continue, will they find the Laurion silver mines, build a fleet, dupe Xerxes into sending his fleet into the Salamis narrows? If not, Athens remains an unexceptional Greek polis among many others.

Persian Greece:The Persians reduced Eretria to smoldering rubble before Marathon and had every intention to visit the same on Athens - as punishment for assisting the Ionian Revolt. So no Athens (unless the Athenians manage to flee west - which has been discussed before), and no Sokrates, Alkibiades, Perikles or Plato.
It's unlikely that the Persians will allow Sparta's social system (helots vs. Spartiates) to continue to exist either.
I see no reason why the other Greek states should not go on as they had in the same way as those in Ionia or on Cyprus. Plenty of them, Thebes, Argos, Macedon, were prepared to throw in their lot with the Persians as it is.

[JHPier]

Pelloponesian Cold War
The war already has tons of similarities to the cold war. I'm not talking nuclear here or anything, but it would be fun to do a TL where you take Athens and Sparta vieying for Mediteranean controll to a new level. Longer. Bigger. More pluralised. Involving more powers. This is actually a pretty likely TL. .They already were bitter rivals from the 460's to 371, with Athens sending expeditions to Egypt and Sicily (twice), and involving Thebes, Argos, Syracuse and Persia. How much bigger and more pluralised do you want it?

Demosthenes unifies Greece
"This is another farily likely POD." Hardly. Demosthenes was an Athenian first and foremost. The Greeks had had enough experience with Athenian imperialism to know they didn't want it.

[JHPier]

I've been a mulling an ATL for Pyrrhus, King of Epirus--the general who gave his name to the adjective 'pyrrhic,' as in "Pyrrhic victory." He could've sent for reinforcements and crushed Rome; . difficult, he already had the bulk of the troops his small kingdom could provide with him; and the Romans military manpower vastly outnumbered his. instead he crushed only thier rivals and left them to assume full control of the Latin League when he saw more opportunity for loot in Sicily.Which rivals are that supposed to be? I''m not aware of any. And the Latin League had been dissolved After Suessa 60 yrs before and its individual members firmly bound to Rome.

[jolo]

How about a more simple one: Some elite Greeks meet and create a form of constitution (actually, a contract disguised as a constitution). This defines pretty much what Greece is, how it's organized, what rights and duties the people have, and how the greeks help each other in any war against foreign powers. Every citizen has to accept this constitution if he wants to stay a citizen.

In this constitution, the cities are classed in small, medium and large. The large ones usually control the surrounding medium ones, the medium cities control the small cities. Border cities can choose the city they belong to among the larger cities bordering them who want them, at least every few years, to create some kind of competition and peaceful expansion possibilities. Geographically connected small cities can also declare one of their peers to become their medium city - medium cities the same. Farms are similar in rights to small cities, but one level below.

A central meeting of delegates of this alliance watches over the constitution and can expel members, coordinate common measures and so on, whenever necessary. The actual decision making stays with the cities and their forces. In quarrels, the first level above the quarreling parties acts as a judge. If small cities don't like each other, their medium city(-ies) decides, if large cities are involved in the quarrel, the central meeting decides, and so on. In cases that can only be decided with a fight, the judging party organizes a fight between the parties where each side can get as many people to join as they want, but their hands are put in gloves, their heads in leather helmets, their genitals in protective gear, and some activities (like neck-braking) are declared illegal, if all parties agree. The party remaining at the end also wins the quarrel. Any non-lethal equipment is allowed (nets, soft bats, and so on), to give smaller people a chance to win using their brains.

This would create a form of modern state without loosing the city-state idea. It could even expand very easily by accepting new members or forcing people and their territory to join after winning wars against them - similar to the roman model. Not loosing so many people in small quarrels would also help a lot.

Greece even had an advantage over Rome - it was already a place with a lot of immigration and emmigration, so that their colonies and culture spread around pretty much, and they had a lot of people from all over the area. That tradition might be kept up, so that the Greek world expands even in peaceful times.

I suppose cities spheres of influence would get larger over time, so that nearly all of todays Greece might be called Athens today, while the Greek city of Rome covers large parts of todays Italy, and so on.

[JHPier]

How about a more simple one: Some elite Greeks meet and create a form of constitution (actually, a contract disguised as a constitution). This defines pretty much what Greece is, how it's organized, what rights and duties the people have, and how the greeks help each other in any war against foreign powers. Every citizen has to accept this constitution if he wants to stay a citizen.

In this constitution, the cities are classed in small, medium and large. The large ones usually control the surrounding medium ones, the medium cities control the small cities. Border cities can choose the city they belong to among the larger cities bordering them who want them, at least every few years, to create some kind of competition and peaceful expansion possibilities. Geographically connected small cities can also declare one of their peers to become their medium city - medium cities the same. Farms are similar in rights to small cities, but one level below.

A central meeting of delegates of this alliance watches over the constitution and can expel members, coordinate common measures and so on, whenever necessary. The actual decision making stays with the cities and their forces. In quarrels, the first level above the quarreling parties acts as a judge. If small cities don't like each other, their medium city(-ies) decides, if large cities are involved in the quarrel, the central meeting decides, and so on.

This would create a form of modern state without loosing the city-state idea. It could even expand very easily by accepting new members or forcing people and their territory to join after winning wars against them - similar to the roman model.

Greece even had an advantage over Rome - it was already a place with a lot of immigration and emmigration, so that their colonies and culture spread around pretty much, and they had a lot of people from all over the area. That tradition might be kept up, so that the Greek world expands even in peaceful times.

I suppose cities would get larger over time, so that nearly all of todays Greece might be called Athens today, while the Greek city of Rome covers large parts of todays Italy, and so on.
This goes against everything the Greeks stood for. You'd need ASB's to give 'em this much foresight, sweet reason, willingness to compromise and submission to the greater common good.

[jolo]

This goes against everything the Greeks stood for. You'd need ASB's to give 'em this much foresight, sweet reason, willingness to compromise and submission to the greater common good.

Maybe true. But there already was a lot of contracts and treaties being made and usually kept. And if you give the more aggressive members of the Greek society a means to let their steam go off without killing each other, they'd probably agree. And if they loose, they'd know they'd probably have lost their lives in a real fight.

The problem with foresight: I believe the Greeks were intelligent enough for something like this. They had even more radical ideas then, some of them sounding modern even today. If they'd agree on such a constitution for a few years and were successful during this time, they'd probably believe in it for quite a few centuries. After that, even if the original idea fades away, the successors would probably find similar solutions at least after some time.

As with the submission to the common good: I believe I posted in a way that self interest is more important. The only question is, whether people stick to the rules if they believe they can get an advantage by not sticking to them. That's why I included a few possibilities to reach any kind of goal with more civilized methods. While the idea sounds far fetched to us, I believe once it is accepted and made to work, it would be considered normal.

One should realize that all kinds of ideas considered strange at a given time were actually tried - religious sects, leading statesmen and so on tried all kinds of them and some of them persisted.

[Faeelin]

This goes against everything the Greeks stood for. You'd need ASB's to give 'em this much foresight, sweet reason, willingness to compromise and submission to the greater common good.

Nah; the Achaean League was sorta similar to this, actually.

[Flocculencio]

Well there's my Sons of Alexander story over in the fiction section which deals with a Diadochi kingdom in India.

[Forum Lurker]

I would question the plausibility of a Peloponnesian Cold War. Neither state could economically support the war effort for a serious period of time; half the reason for the Peace of Nikias was that the coffers wouldn't pay for enough triremes to make force projection feasible. Now, an Athenian victory isn't impossible; had the Assembly not recalled Alcibiades, they could very well have won Sicily (not primarily due to Alcibiades' greater military talents, but rather because in OTL, after his attempted removal, he betrayed one Athenian attempt to take a city and encouraged Spartan intervention which ultimately doomed the expedition).

[JHPier]

Nah; the Achaean League was sorta similar to this, actually.Ancient Greek society was driven by competition, competition between individuals, but mostly between city-states. Self-interest might dictate that small states band together in the face of bigger ones, (particularly post-Alexander) but it was never an easy process.

But all the Greeks voluntarily united in a single League? No way.

[Faeelin]

Ancient Greek society was driven by competition, competition between individuals, but mostly between city-states. Self-interest might dictate that small states band together in the face of bigger ones, (particularly post-Alexander) but it was never an easy process.

But all the Greeks voluntarily united in a single League? No way.

The Achaean League was, err, real.

[Adamanteus]

I'm amazed at how few Greek TLs are out there. I'm not talking Byzantine or Byron. . . I'm talking Athens and Corinth and all that good stuff. Well, here are severall Greek PODs that I think would be fun toying with:

Mycinae doesn't fall: Instead of loosing to the Dorians, the Mycinaens use the invasion as an excuse to unify the rest of Greece under the common bond of protection. Instead of developing their own unique way of life, centered on the polis, the Greeks become more like another normall Empire. Chances are therey'd be an earlier confrontaion with the Persians or another earlier empire, and the Greeks would probably eventually loose. This TL would probably be the most likely possibility for Mesopotamia dominating Europe.

Dictators stay in Athens:
Well, Athens was a center of culture and understanding. But would that keep under a benevolent tyrant? Who would take over (lets forget about the butterflies for this one)? What would become of Socrates? Plato? Pericles? Alcibiades?

Persian Greece, bad edition:
One of the staples of Alternate History: Persia wins the Battle of Salamis or avoides it. Athens becomes the capital of a Persian satelite state. The aristocracy across Greece is thrown out. Many are sold into slavery. Western culture is snufed out pratically before it begins. Then Sparta, with the help of Corinth and Athens, wages a huge rebelion. Is it, or is it not, too late to save the western world in any form remotely similar to what we have today?

Persian Greece, good edition:
This is something that very few people have considered, but is a small possibility. The POD would be Marathon, not Salamis. After Greece is partially put under the yoke of Persian rule, the culture spreads, and an early Hellenistic age begins during the late 5th century B.C. The Persians were actually normally pretty benevolent, there's a chance that the Greeks actually become more powerful after this. A little like the Jews. This is a low possibility, but it would make an interesting TL. (especially if I used and earlier POD to make the Jews more powerful. Jewish culture vs. Greek culture in Persia. The old Zoroastrianism peeks through the cracks, so that the more Jewish groop views the Greek as absolute evil, and vice versa.) Again, very unlikely, but it would be different.

Pelloponesian Cold War
The war already has tons of similarities to the cold war. I'm not talking nuclear here or anything, but it would be fun to do a TL where you take Athens and Sparta vieying for Mediteranean controll to a new level. Longer. Bigger. More pluralised. Involving more powers. This is actually a pretty likely TL.

Demosthones unifies Greece
This is another farily likely POD. Under the threat of both Persia and Macedonia, Demosthones creats a Greek state which probably won't exspand as far as Alexander's empire, but would be culturally stronger and less corrupted, with elements of Democracy and the Polis remaining. Bassically the age of Greece wouldn't die out, and a state more ready to stand the test of time would be created. Rome would have less of a chance to defeat it. Same goes with Carthage and Persia. Pax Hellinistica, and this time its a real Greece, not a fake Greek like one like the ones that came after Alexander.

If anybody would actually be interested in one of these possibilities, please say so. I think I may be able to write up a real TL. But only if there's some interest.

A lot of your scenarios are interesting, but pretty improbable. Let me point out how.

What brought down the Bronze Age Greek civilization is under some dispute. The Dorian Invasion is an ancient theory that may not have weight. The Dorians may have simply filled the vaccuum left over after the cities crumbled.

The Athenian dictatorship is actually OTL. In the 6th century BC, Peisistratos was a benevolent tyrant with a prosperous Athens. The problem was that his successors were nowhere near as accomplished as he was, and were run out of power. This is, in fact, the central problem with dictatorships and monarchies. You never know what kind of ruler you'll get, and there's no guarantee that one will be as good as the last. Also, there's nothing that you can do about a bad one.

The Persian Greece idea I've heard, but I don't find realistic. With some exception, Persian policy had been to spare their occupied nations and allow them even a measure of autonomy, so long as taxes and military service were included. I have no doubt that this would happen in Greece, although it wouldn't be universal. Some parts of Greece would be treated worse than others. I can imagine that those regions which collaborate with the Persians, especially before the invasion, would get favoritism, and be carved out as separate satrapies. In OTL, there was plenty of treachery in the Greek ranks, so clearly, not everyone believed that Persian rule was going to be bad.

Peloponnesian War: I actually did a TL that's in the old board archive where this cold war actually happens. Check it out. Ultimately, the rivalry proves fruitless when Macedon rises, though.

Demosthenes is not going to win over the Greeks any more than Themistocles. The Greek nations are just going to form a temporary alliance, like they always did, and drive out any threats. The city-states were tenaciously independent.

[Constantinople]

Now why are you not impressed with the greek civilization?

[JHPier]

The Achaean League was, err, real.Sure. It formed nearly a century after Philippos and Alexandeer of Macedon had shown how little future a single polis had.

But I was objecting to the proposition by Jolo that ALL the Greeks could have united in a SINGLE League.

[Faeelin]

Sure. It formed nearly a century after Philippos and Alexandeer of Macedon had shown how little future a single polis had.

But I was objecting to the proposition by Jolo that ALL the Greeks could have united in a SINGLE League.

I'm not sure I'd see why that's necessarily improbable. If you mean all Greeks from Spain to Bactria, then no. But I could see victorious Athens uniting the Greeks around the Achaean and ruling Sicily, and then being forced to change their structure into a league style state.

[JHPier]

I'm not sure I'd see why that's necessarily improbable. If you mean all Greeks from Spain to Bactria, then no. But I could see victorious Athens uniting the Greeks around the Achaean and ruling Sicily, and then being forced to change their structure into a league style state.I can't. The Athenians couldn't resist treating their 'allies' as subjects - as they proved again in the Second Delian League of the 4C.