Disaster at Leuthen TL - Frederick the Great dies in battle

[Razgriz 2K9]

also to note, what of India? How will the age of revolutions affect the areas outside of America and Europe in general and in particular, the colonies in India, Africa and Asia?

[Direwolf22]

also to note, what of India? How will the age of revolutions affect the areas outside of America and Europe in general and in particular, the colonies in India, Africa and Asia?

India will once more become a battleground between Britain and France, which I hope to cover in another update. The liberal revolutions in Europe however won't encourage similar ones outside of the Americas. The colonies in Asia and Africa are too remote or sparsely populated to undergo a similar sort of revolution. That said the changes affecting many European countries wil affect their colonies down the line.

Noooo, not the HRE. ;_;

Will the self-crowned king of Sachsen-Bayern be aiming for the geographical unification of his domains? Looking at my map of the HRE, it seems they were only separated by Bamberg, Bayreuth and a few very small statelets. I suppose he could also try pushing for the Bohemian throne if he is sufficiently successful against the Austrians, though that might be a bit much.

He will indeed. If the Coalition loses the war, or at least doesn't win, you will see Frederick Augustus push hard for a geographical link; though no he on't get Bohemia. The German geopolitical situation will change greatly when peace comes, as new nations rise and old ones fall. And don't worry we will see the HRE return, sort of...

So the war drags on. And Austria is now some kind of quasi-federal Empire... interesting. Have they written off the Austrian Netherlands as lost to the French? They're definitely boxed in especially with a successful Bourbon on the Polish throne. I hope this upcoming Spanish conflagration allows them to pull through. I'd like to see a TL where Joseph II succeeds, mostly in spite of himself.

Yup, on and on and on. This is, I believe, the best and only chance the Habsburg domains had at reform enough to ensure survival down the line. Their reforms in OTL were too little too late. Yes, the Austrian Netherlands are gone for good at this point. Austria is indeed getting surrounded, Poland, Bavaria-Saxony, France, Sardinia etc. This will lead to a great emphasis on maintaing the alliance with Prussia as well as a reach out to an old enemy.

Hmm, interesting update.

Since there's been quite a bit of fighting in Southern Mexico and Guatamaula, what's the status of the Mayans? Seems like both sides would be thinking of arming them for some ready manpower.

And what's the status of Portugal and Brazil?

The Mayans are basically just fighting everyone at this point. Guatemala and the rest of Central America is still relatively secure, for the moment, but the UPA will probably try and win over the Mayans. Portugal and Brazil will be covered in the next update where we see the Spanish Uprising and the progress of revolution in South America.

[RandomWriterGuy]

Does Bonaparte have a role in this TL? I do hope so. And if so, what does this mean?

[Vitruvius]

The German geopolitical situation will change greatly when peace comes, as new nations rise and old ones fall. And don't worry we will see the HRE return, sort of...

I was thinking about that. With the HRE done as an institution all the little micro-states, especially the Freiherren and the ecclesiastical states, really need somewhere to go because they can't really stand on their own. So unless someone erects some kind of new HRE or Rheinbund like substitute it seems like the OTL Reichsdeputationshauptschluss and the mediatisation of small states is upcoming.

Seems like you're already planning something in this area. I'm curious to see what it is.

[Direwolf22]

I was thinking about that. With the HRE done as an institution all the little micro-states, especially the Freiherren and the ecclesiastical states, really need somewhere to go because they can't really stand on their own. So unless someone erects some kind of new HRE or Rheinbund like substitute it seems like the OTL Reichsdeputationshauptschluss and the mediatisation of small states is upcoming.

Seems like you're already planning something in this area. I'm curious to see what it is.

Exactly. The HRE is of course dead. Saxony-Bavaria has abandoned it and the Austrians renounced it, and Prussia under Wilhelm I won't be submitting to anyone. So we will see new spheres of power carve themselves out as the strong look to grasp and the weak rally together.

[Direwolf22]

Does Bonaparte have a role in this TL? I do hope so. And if so, what does this mean?

Limited role, of course nowhere near his successes in OTL. He is currently serving in the Sardinian Army fighting somewhere in Venetia. He has risen highly, but without his teachings in a French military academy, his genius isn't as expansive.

[RandomWriterGuy]

Limited role, of course nowhere near his successes in OTL. He is currently serving in the Sardinian Army fighting somewhere in Venetia. He has risen highly, but without his teachings in a French military academy, his genius isn't as expansive.

You mean he doesn't move to France? Why?

[Razgriz 2K9]

Because in OTL, Corsica was a French state when Napoleon was born. Here ITTL, Corsica is a Sardinian Province...

[Hnau]

I can't believe you didn't talk about potatoes here! (My bad if you did, but I can't find anything in the thread about it.)

Frederick the Great was an important sponsor of the potato. He recognized in his invasion of the Rhineland where potatoes were becoming popular that it allowed the rural populations to survive military incursions and occupations. As such he gave state support for the potato to be grown so that when Prussia got involved in wars the rural population wouldn't be devastated. This was usually the case in European warfare before the potato was adopted. Case in point: the Thirty Years' War, in which huge percentages of the rural population of Germany died because of famine, induced because of the many soldiers that were forced to live off the land, seizing the crops of the peasants. With the adoption of the potato, the peasants didn't suffer so much when wartime came. Because of Frederick the Great's sponsorship, Russia and France in particular gave state support to the potato as well (well, Russia wasn't so successful, but France was, though not to the degree of Prussia).

With an early death of Frederick the Great, this beneficial effect of the potato will not be realized for much longer, so you'll get more rural fatalities during the wars conducted in Germany.

Consider it! :)

[RandomWriterGuy]

Almost forgot. Will the Ottoman Empire be diminished? :D

[Direwolf22]

Almost forgot. Will the Ottoman Empire be diminished? :D

It will indeed shrink. The Serb and Danubian risings have effectively achieved their goals and Greece looks to be going a similar way. It is a question now of how much the Turks can hold onto and what they can do after the peace to rebuild.

I can't believe you didn't talk about potatoes here! (My bad if you did, but I can't find anything in the thread about it.)

Frederick the Great was an important sponsor of the potato. He recognized in his invasion of the Rhineland where potatoes were becoming popular that it allowed the rural populations to survive military incursions and occupations. As such he gave state support for the potato to be grown so that when Prussia got involved in wars the rural population wouldn't be devastated. This was usually the case in European warfare before the potato was adopted. Case in point: the Thirty Years' War, in which huge percentages of the rural population of Germany died because of famine, induced because of the many soldiers that were forced to live off the land, seizing the crops of the peasants. With the adoption of the potato, the peasants didn't suffer so much when wartime came. Because of Frederick the Great's sponsorship, Russia and France in particular gave state support to the potato as well (well, Russia wasn't so successful, but France was, though not to the degree of Prussia).

With an early death of Frederick the Great, this beneficial effect of the potato will not be realized for much longer, so you'll get more rural fatalities during the wars conducted in Germany.

Consider it! :)

I have to admit this had never occurred to me. At the back of my mind I new Frederick had something to do with potatoes but I'd never really considered what affect this would have down the line without him. So the situation in Germany now is probably much worse for the peasantry than the Napoleonic Wars were in OTL. Poor peasants. I'll probably have some other state pioneer potatoes then, maybe one of the Rhineland states or Poland perhaps. Though I suppose I could do something interesting with Ireland. Hmm....

Because in OTL, Corsica was a French state when Napoleon was born. Here ITTL, Corsica is a Sardinian Province...

Exactly, this answers the question. Napoleone attended a military school in Piedmont instead, obviously nowhere near as grand as those in France. In this TL he is not so much a Corsican nationalist (as he was in OTL originally) but an Italian nationalist.

[King Henry]

India will once more become a battleground between Britain and France, which I hope to cover in another update. The liberal revolutions in Europe however won't encourage similar ones outside of the Americas. The colonies in Asia and Africa are too remote or sparsely populated to undergo a similar sort of revolution. That said the changes affecting many European countries wil affect their colonies down the line.
Without early British hegemony, could we see some Indian states managing to play the powers off each other and modernize their military, becoming fully independent powers?


Yup, on and on and on. This is, I believe, the best and only chance the Habsburg domains had at reform enough to ensure survival down the line. Their reforms in OTL were too little too late. Yes, the Austrian Netherlands are gone for good at this point. Austria is indeed getting surrounded, Poland, Bavaria-Saxony, France, Sardinia etc. This will lead to a great emphasis on maintaing the alliance with Prussia as well as a reach out to an old enemy.

I'm guessing there's going to be a few wars in the future over who gets Belgium


The Mayans are basically just fighting everyone at this point. Guatemala and the rest of Central America is still relatively secure, for the moment, but the UPA will probably try and win over the Mayans.

Oh, what's the make-up of the UPA's leadership anyway? Hidalgoesque radicals? Moderate creoles? And what's their relationship towards the natives and stance on slavery?

[Direwolf22]

Without early British hegemony, could we see some Indian states managing to play the powers off each other and modernize their military, becoming fully independent powers?


I'm guessing there's going to be a few wars in the future over who gets Belgium



Oh, what's the make-up of the UPA's leadership anyway? Hidalgoesque radicals? Moderate creoles? And what's their relationship towards the natives and stance on slavery?


The Indian subcontinent will never come completely under the control of a sole European power. At least one Indian state will survive by, as you said, utilising the old strategy of playing off Britain and France. Plus TTL's Britain isn't strong enough to launch a full conquest of India. Flanders will end up in the French sphere, at least to some degree. After I wrap up the Age of Revs (hopefully in two more instalments) I hope to write an update about the various North American states, looking in detail about how they operate, the internal divisions and issues, etc. But the UPA is currently led by a large mixture of people, but most Spaniards have fled south to Loyalist territory. They will attempt to forge strong relations with the natives and (being heavily influenced by the Louisianan revolution) are anti-slavery. They will be outlawing soon (after much heated debate).

[Razgriz 2K9]

Coming to the question of India, I could see the possibility of more than one Indian state surviving since the PoD, if not just one. My money is of course, not on either the Mughals, who were at this point weakened to near oblivion at this point, nor the Marathas, despite TTL pretty much overriding their decline being hastened by the British. Not even Hyderabad, because I can see them gobbled up by France in the future.

My money is on one of the smaller Indian Kingdoms, I'm looking to Mysore, Travancore or both here.

[RandomWriterGuy]

Maybe France should take over India.

[Direwolf22]

Coming to the question of India, I could see the possibility of more than one Indian state surviving since the PoD, if not just one. My money is of course, not on either the Mughals, who were at this point weakened to near oblivion at this point, nor the Marathas, despite TTL pretty much overriding their decline being hastened by the British. Not even Hyderabad, because I can see them gobbled up by France in the future.

My money is on one of the smaller Indian Kingdoms, I'm looking to Mysore, Travancore or both here.

Maybe France should take over India.

Looks like I'll definitely have to cover India in the next update then, which to be honest I had planned to anyway to some extent. Yeah I agree the Mughals at this point are a lost cause though the Marathas may be able to bounce back. Mysore at this point is a French ally so if they continue to expand under French protection they could become very strong in the south. I doubt the French in TTL will be able to dominate the continent as the British did in OTL due to European priorities and the British control of the seas; but they are obviously going to be more influential than in our world.

[Direwolf22]

A question to my readers: What would you think of Portugal making Brazil into a dominion ala the British model, probably following a small rising or revolt in Brazil inspired by the risings to their north? Do you think this is likely, or at least, likely enough?

[Razgriz 2K9]

It's somewhat implausible...Portugal, unlike Great Britain is treated as an Absolute Monarchy, Enlightened, yes...but an Absolute Monarchy. I think the only way I can think of a Dominion of Brazil being feasible is if Portugal gets a few shots of Parliamentarianism in their governmental system.

[RandomWriterGuy]

Will there be an Independent 13 Colonies?

[King Henry]

It's somewhat implausible...Portugal, unlike Great Britain is treated as an Absolute Monarchy, Enlightened, yes...but an Absolute Monarchy. I think the only way I can think of a Dominion of Brazil being feasible is if Portugal gets a few shots of Parliamentarianism in their governmental system.

There's also the problem that at that point Brazil was significantly more important then the Metropole anyway. Something kind of like OTL, where Brazil is declared an empire in personal union with Portugal could possibly work, although the situation probably wouldn't last all that long.

[SavoyTruffle]

Will there be an Independent 13 Colonies?

Probably a Commonwealth system at best. With Britain keeping its North American possessions I doubt it will have that much of an urge to build its empire.

[Direwolf22]

On the Portugal matter I think I have to agree with the two of you. The personal union (though probably temporary) is a more likely solution, depending of course on the scale of dissent and the internal politics in Lisbon. But the Spanish situation will scare them into action.

For the 13 colonies (which no longer exist as a single entity) Savoy is right in saying that Britain's imperial appetite will be less in this TL due to its maintenance of the American Dominions. Both Dominions will eventually of course get full independence, but the timing and style of such and their future relations with Britain will vary dramatically.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Indeed, the 13 Colonies, now the Dominion of New England and the Dominion of Carolina will probably be more like Canada. Though Carolina may be a different case entirely...

[Direwolf22]

Indeed, the 13 Colonies, now the Dominion of New England and the Dominion of Carolina will probably be more like Canada. Though Carolina may be a different case entirely...

Indeed. ;) Time for old Andrew Jackson to make an appearance..

[RandomWriterGuy]

When's the next update?

[Direwolf22]

When's the next update?

Tomorrow or Friday. I'm on holiday in Spain right now but I get back tomorrow and hope to have it up soon.

[kasumigenx]

I think this timeline deserves a bump!

[Direwolf22]

I think this timeline deserves a bump!

Thank you! And coincidentally enough I will be publishing the next update sometime tonight. For real this time.

[King Henry]

Thank you! And coincidentally enough I will be publishing the next update sometime tonight. For real this time.

Awesome. Can't wait! :)

[Direwolf22]

I have moved this update to the top of the next page.

[Direwolf22]

The Age of Revolutions


(1790-1820)
Part V: Spreading Embers; Dying Ashes



Within the British Reform Act of 1796 was a law abolishing the slave trade within the British Empire and its Dominions. Though well received in Britain and New England it struck a chord with the elites in Carolina and the Caribbean colonies, who saw their fortunes and the economies of their states under threat from this new law. In the Caribbean there was a great deal of mumbling and finger pointing but eventually they just got on with it, and instead focused on using the slaves they already had to expand their workforce. Things were different in Carolina however. The Carolinans had been growing increasingly restless for some time now. The government in Charleston had been reluctant to enter the war in the first place, wary of the revolutionary message in New Orleans, and only the prize of Florida had enticed them into the conflict. Now that Florida however had been occupied, what more reason was there to fight? Charleston had even begun sending out peace feelers to the Spanish. The men in Charleston were determined not to let Westminster determine their future. The abolition of the slave trade did not go down too well in Carolina therefore. The economy of the Dominion was based on cash crops harvested by slave labour. In the Parliament in Charleston the ruling elite condemned the move, and following a bitter debate, decided to ignore the measure and continue importing slaves. The government of the Dominion increasingly under the sway of men, such as Virginian MP James Madison, who advocated a more determined course of action and breaking Westminster's hold over the Dominion.


Things came to a head in late 1797 when a Carolinan vessel carrying slaves from West Africa was intercepted by a British warship en route to the Caribbean. The British suspicious of the intentions of the other ship, boarded it. When the British captain discovered what was in the hull he immediately seized control of the ship and escorted it back to British Jamaica where the Carolinan captain and crew were imprisoned. The “Endeavour Incident” (named after the Carolinan ship) as it became known caused a fury in the Carolinan cities. The government decried the action as impugning on Carolinan commerce and sovereignty and demanded an apology from Westminster. The British refused to give one, saying that the Endeavour had been carrying out an illegal act and the Royal Navy was well within its rights to seize the vessel, after all Dominions had no sovereignty. Very well then, said Charleston, we will seek to change that. A faction in the Charleston Parliament began advocating total independence from Britain. The call was led by Madison, who it turned out had had many links with the American rebels of the 1770s. There was deadlock in Charleston over what course to take, however a rumour (that turned out to have been unfounded) that Britain was preparing to return Florida to Spain in exchange for territory in Europe, swung the vote. On January 12th 1798 the Dominion of Carolina declared full independence and renamed itself the Confederacy of American States with Madison as acting President. They began preparing for war.

Acting CAS President James Madison:
http://www.earlyamerica.com/portraits/images/madison.jpg

The break-away of the Confederacy of American States (CAS) had severe impacts on the rest of the fighting in the Americas. The conflict with the CAS drew British focus away from Latin America to deal with the issue. Louisianan forces too began withdrawing from the south to focus on the new threat along their western border. The withdrawal of allied forces had a profound impact on the United Provinces of America and its battle with the Spanish too the south. The UPA was a vast nation with a wide-ranging rural population. The process of uniting the nation properly was a tiresome one. Américan forces were tide up working with the local Provincial governments to fully gain control of all former Spanish territory north of the Yucatan, a process which was only fully complete by 1800. With large portions of the Américan military tied in up in this process very little manpower was left for the campaign in the south against the Spanish Loyalists. Consequently the government in Mexico City reached out to the Mayan populace of central America. Offering them a place in the UPA with considerable autonomy and a recognition of the rights and difference of Mayan cultural society the Américan government was able to win over their support and prompt them to rise up against the Spanish. This rising threw the Spanish into retreat and the Américan forces drove south towards the Panamanian Isthmus on the orders of Américan Prime Minister Ignacio Allende, a former Spanish soldier who had joined the revolutionaries during the rising and led the Federalist party in the government. The Battle of San Juan River in late March was a major defeat for the Spanish. The defeat forced many Spanish troops to flee to either Cuba or further south to New Granada, where they were harried by rebels who had recently risen up following news of the successful rebellions of the UPA and Louisiana. Spanish forces in South America were eventually able to regroup around Quito and prepare for a possible campaign to the north or at the very least to prevent the loss of any more colonies.

Portugal and Brazil were not exempt from the revolutionary wave sweeping the globe. Portugal itself had been shaken by the Parisian Rising. And as the tide of change had swept through Germany, Austria and North America political agitators in Lisbon began to grow in strength and in conviction. In 1797 these liberals had been able to oversee the creation of a Parliament in Lisbon, and a limiting of the monarch's power, a move towards, but still far from, the British model. The Parliament continued to gain influence at the expense of Queen Maria I, whose mental health had been suffering greatly. In early 1798 a rebellion broke out in Salvador, Brazil. The rebels were unable to take the city entirely but instead fell into a low level insurgency. Many other colonials however sympathized with them and as the wave of independence swept across the Americas many thought that Brazil should join them. Determined to maintain control over their colony the Portuguese government acted quickly. The royal heir, the young Prince John took a small force to quell the rebels. While in Brazil he became aware of the public sentiment for change. John was determined to keep the colony under Portuguese influence at any costs. He looked at the British Dominion system to the north but decided it would not work in this case, not least because of the recent actions by the Confederacy. Instead he, as Prince Regent, decided to elevate Brazil in importance, to be an equal to Portugal itself. He took the title Prince of Brazil and oversaw the development of a Brazilian Parliament in Rio de Janeiro in August 1798, one that would oversee the colony while still being subservient to Lisbon. He would remain in Rio as Prince of Brazil was to be the official title, and role, of the heir apparent, while his mother was given the new title Queen of Portugal, Brazil and the Algraves.

Maria I of Portugal, Brazil and the Algraves:
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/images/wiki/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/_Rainha_reinante_D._Maria_I_-_A_Louca.jpg

The events in Portugal, France and the Americas were too have a huge impact on Spain, and of all countries it may have arguably suffered the most from the era, at least in the short term. When the Parisian Rising broke out back in 1790, Spain had been stirred. When France broke out in civil war and Europe erupted, Spain was shaken. When its colonies revolted, its forces defeated and its Portuguese neighbor reformed, Spain was pushed to the brink. All it needed was a spark, and that came in May 1798. The Count of Floridablanca was the Spanish King Charles IV's prime minister, and was a reform minded man. He had tried to push through reforms in the nation and the government but had been blocked by conservatives and the king. In late 1797 he was dismissed from service after he made a remark that seemed, to the king at least, to praise the Louisianan and Américan risings as positives and implying that Spain should follow suit. Doubtless the Count only meant as far as increased reform, a la Portugal, but the king took it as a call for a republic. He was replaced by Manuel de Godoy, allegedly the Queen's lover, whose more reactionary views were favored by the king. When word of the defeat at San Juan River and the Portuguese reforms became public knowledge a large protest broke out in Madrid on May 5th 1798 demanding similar reforms in Spain. The king refused and ordered the crowd dispersed. The garrison was unmotivated and inexperienced, the best troops being in America or fighting the British elsewhere, and in the confusion some fired on the crowd. The result was chaos, as some protesters charged the garrison while some soldiers defected to the other side. The rebels, flush with the notions of liberty being heard across the western hemisphere, soon seized control over much of the city. The king and his minsters were forced to flee to Valencia. The rebels were soon joined by the liberal elite and were soon dominated by Floridablanca and a local priest Father Santiago. The nation soon descended into civil war. The king could have restored order, albeit after much struggle, had he not made the mistake of requesting French support. The moment the first French troops entered Spain in September of 1798 King Charles IV lost support and came to be seen as a French puppet. Britain and Portugal backed the rebels and soon a British force was dispatched to Portugal to prepare for an intervention, though they were keen to play a low key role to avoid the mistake Charles had made. Spain would soon bleed.

King Charles IV of Spain:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Carlos_IV_de_rojo.jpg/220px-Carlos_IV_de_rojo.jpg

The outbreak of the Spanish Civil War would have a significant impact on the fighting in central Europe. The shift in French focus here deprived them the ability to finish off the Coalition which had appeared to be faltering. As Britain and France both became absorbed in the peninsula the fighting in Germany and Italy began to slow. This was a huge relief to both Austria and Prussia which were both eager for peace. The Prussians had been driven back and they and their north German allies were fighting a desperate struggle against the armies of the Counter-Reform alliance. Austria-Hungary was still recovering from internal issues while being pushed back in Bavaria and Italy; not to mention the Balkan crisis. Meanwhile Poland, finished with its civil war, was preparing to strike at both Coalition members. Vienna and Berlin both decided to approach King Louis for peace. The French were happy to oblige. They had managed to gain the upper hand in the east and were determined to orchestrate a peace so they could focus on the Spanish problem. Fighting continued into mid 1799 before the two sides managed to come to a negotiated peace in Rome. The Treaty of Rome (August 1799) ended the war in Germany and Italy bringing an end to the revolutionary conflict there. Representatives from Austria-Hungary, Prussia, Sardinia, Bavaria-Saxony, Poland, Britain and France (the two still at war elsewhere) hammered out the treaty. The Coalition was desperate for peace and were eager to maintain what honour they could, accepting the war was lost. Firstly the union of Bavaria and Saxony was recognized by all parties, as was the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire. The former German states were too be reorganized into a smaller amount of larger more manageable states as well as the secularization of the ecclesiastical states. In the northwest the reformist German states were united into the League of the Rhine. This was a Prussian insistence, backed by Britain and the states themselves fearful of being gobbled up by the great powers. The League was an almost miniature HRE. Each state was technically independent but they were all joined by a series of defense alliances. The rulers of these states would nominate one of their own to serve as Grand Marshall of the League to serve as its head for the duration of their lifetime. The first Grand Marshall was to be Maximilian Francis the former Archbishop-Elector and now King of Cologne. A council of the various rulers and their ministers was to be held every year in the League “capital”, Dortmund. The king of Prussia was also given the title of “Protector of the League”. Prussia was also awarded some of Saxony's territories. In Italy Sardinia was ceded Genoa and Parma as the North Italian Confederation was abolished following its failure to stop the Sardinians. Austria-Hungary was ceded Venetia and Salzburg to balance the Saxon-Bavarian union and the Sardinian growth. The former Austrian Netherlands were ceded to France despite British objections. But with no British troops left in Germany and their war with France still on going Great Britain was effectively only an observer at the conference. Westminster would try and seek to balance France's gains by seizing French territory overseas. Austria now turned its attentions to the Balkans while France and Britain continued to battle for global supremacy.



The next update will the Age of Revolutions Part VI. In that update I will wrap up the Revolutionary Wars, dealing with India, the Americas, Iberia and the Balkans.
I'll probably do a map soon as well to reflect the treaty changes.

[King Henry]

So was Poland just invited as an observer? just making sure they got the message and didn't invade?

And did Saxonavaria get a land connection?

[Razgriz 2K9]

First Austria-Hungary, now Saxony-Bavaria...This is going to be a weird map. O_O

[Iserlohn]

I'll probably do a map soon as well to reflect the treaty changes.

YES! By the way, excellent TL, really good read. Good, old Dortmund as League capital. Maybe my namesake city might profit from that ;)

(it really is time to end my lurker status for this TL)

[Direwolf22]

YES! By the way, excellent TL, really good read. Good, old Dortmund as League capital. Maybe my namesake city might profit from that ;)

(it really is timhttp://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6017040e to end my lurker status for this TL)

Haha thank you. I'm glad you've decided to move beyond lurker, its nice to have new commenters. And I thought Dortmund was the most logical choice to serve as the capital.

So was Poland just invited as an observer? just making sure they got the message and didn't invade?

And did Saxonavaria get a land connection?

The Poles sent a delegation but did not directly intervene in the war. Poland was one of the nations that did very well out of the 1790s. The short Civil War has allowed for the creation of a stable Polish government. Saxonavaria? Interesting name.. And yes they did.

First Austria-Hungary, now Saxony-Bavaria...This is going to be a weird map. O_O

Dual monarchies galore! Let's just say Europe will definitely look different from when we saw it last. And there are more territorial changes to come; the Age of Revolution is not done yet.

[Direwolf22]

Does anyone have a good idea what the flag of Saxony-Bavaria might look like?

[King Henry]

Does anyone have a good idea what the flag of Saxony-Bavaria might look like?

Depends on where the capital ends up being I'd imagine. Or just go the Hapsburg rout and pile all the flags on top of each other and see how it turns out.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Oh give me a moment, I got GIMP, I'll try for a flag...

And chances are since Saxony-Bavaria is ruled by a Wettin from Saxony, the Capital remains in Dresden.

[Direwolf22]

Oh give me a moment, I got GIMP, I'll try for a flag...

And chances are since Saxony-Bavaria is ruled by a Wettin from Saxony, the Capital remains in Dresden.

Yeah this was my thinking. Ok cool, I might toy around with it as well tomorrow. Though lets see what you come up with.

[Kuld von Reyn]

While it might not be very interesting, how about a tricolour of green, white and blue? Someone else came up with a similar concept (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=5100400&postcount=94) in the flag thread a while back.

Good update, by the way. Shame about the HRE getting dissolved regardless of the Napoleonic Wars being butterflied away, but at least the successor states sound more interesting than their OTL counterparts.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Well, I actually thought ahead on that one (http://i.imgur.com/MJB3A.png):

[Direwolf22]

Well, I actually thought ahead on that one (http://i.imgur.com/MJB3A.png):

I think this is a good flag and will use it if thats ok thanks. I intend to put up a map showing the territorial changes in Germany soon.

[Razgriz 2K9]

You may use it however you like. Looking forward to the map, though now that I think about it, I wonder if Saxony and Bavaria have a combined land border now.

[Direwolf22]

Map of Germany after the Treaty of Rome (1799).

The Holy Roman Empire has been disbanded and the ecclesiastical states have been secularized. The old states have been merged into larger ones and the age of the city-state is over. The League of the Rhine has been formed in the northwest amongst the reformist states and Prussian lands. The Kingdom of Saxony-Bavaria has been formed and the Austro-Hungarian Empire has gained territory in Italy.

(map updated; see below)

[King Henry]

Hmm, what's the little splotch between the Confederation and Hanover?

Anyway, doesn't look like the South Germany states are going to be long in the world, stuck between a Saxony-Bavaria probably desperate for some stratigac depth and an ambitious France.

How the Confederation develops could be interesting as well. I'd expect some degree of centralization will make itself necessary after the disorganized poorly coordinated armies are crushed for the first time, But where it goes from there is pretty open. A Prussian protectorate (With the King elected Marshal in his role of ruler of the Rhenish territories), or a straight-up military dictatorship both seem possible.

[Kuld von Reyn]

Nice map. Illustrates the current situation in the now defunct HRE quite clearly. Is there or will there be a sort of German Confederation analogue? I could definitely see Swabia, Baden, Württemberg and possibly Ansbach forming a sort of new "Swabian League" in opposition to Saxonavarian* hegemony in the area.

Oh, and the Kingdom of Münster? Not sure if that's the best thing to call it, given the prior history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion) of such a title.


*The combination doesn't work at all in German, but it's such a nice word in English.

Well, I actually thought ahead on that one (http://i.imgur.com/MJB3A.png):
Ah, that's very nice as well. Good job.

Hmm, what's the little splotch between the Confederation and Hanover?Looks like Oldenburg to me.

[Direwolf22]

Hmm, what's the little splotch between the Confederation and Hanover?

Anyway, doesn't look like the South Germany states are going to be long in the world, stuck between a Saxony-Bavaria probably desperate for some stratigac depth and an ambitious France.

How the Confederation develops could be interesting as well. I'd expect some degree of centralization will make itself necessary after the disorganized poorly coordinated armies are crushed for the first time, But where it goes from there is pretty open. A Prussian protectorate (With the King elected Marshal in his role of ruler of the Rhenish territories), or a straight-up military dictatorship both seem possible.

Yeah South Germany is stuck between a rock and a hard place between Saxony-Bavaria and France. The French have taken the Austrian Netherlands and so are content expansion wise, for now at least.

The League you mean? The question remains will it be able to centralize and unite properly or will it end up falling under Prussian rule?

Nice map. Illustrates the current situation in the now defunct HRE quite clearly. Is there or will there be a sort of German Confederation analogue? I could definitely see Swabia, Baden, Württemberg and possibly Ansbach forming a sort of new "Swabian League" in opposition to Saxonavarian* hegemony in the area.

Oh, and the Kingdom of Münster? Not sure if that's the best thing to call it, given the prior history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion) of such a title.


*The combination doesn't work at all in German, but it's such a nice word in English.


Ah, that's very nice as well. Good job.

Looks like Oldenburg to me.

Yeah thats a good point. Any suggestions instead of Munster? The South Germans will definitely try and so something along those lines yes in the near future. I like Saxonavarian think I might use that.

And yes thats Oldenburg, still under Danish rule.

[Iserlohn]

Yeah thats a good point? Any suggestions instead of Munster?

I would say there isn't one, except maybe choosing "Münsterland" (the name of the region around Münster), seeing how there were no distinct states in that region (the Napoleonic Grand Duchy of Cleves-Berg did contain Münster, but Cleves already exists and Berg is roughly partioned between Greater Dortmund/Mark (would be a better name for that state by the way) and Cologne).

[pompejus]

Map of Germany after the Treaty of Rome (1799).


Shouldn't the Netherlands still have Maastricht and other parts of Limburg?

[Direwolf22]

I would say there isn't one, except maybe choosing "Münsterland" (the name of the region around Münster), seeing how there were no distinct states in that region (the Napoleonic Grand Duchy of Cleves-Berg did contain Münster, but Cleves already exists and Berg is roughly partioned between Greater Dortmund/Mark (would be a better name for that state by the way) and Cologne).

Yeah I'm gonna go with that, seems like the best choice. I've also taken your advice and rename that area Berg. Which also allowed me to make the change of adding Dortmund as a separate city-state ruled by the Grand Marshall, which I think makes sense for the League's capital. Otherwise the ruler of the now Kingdom of Berg would have too much influence.

[Direwolf22]

Shouldn't the Netherlands still have Maastricht and other parts of Limburg?

The Dutch were forced to cede some land to other powers. Thats what happens when you don't help either side, no one helps you. Of course they still come out better than they did in OTL, being conquered by Napoleon and all. I hope to do an update soon on what the Dutch actually are doing, off in the East Indies.

[Direwolf22]

The flag of the new United Kingdom of Saxony and Bavaria

http://i.imgur.com/MJB3A.png


(courtesy of Razgriz 2K9)

[King Henry]

Say, what are the governments of the league actually like? English-style constitutionalism? Figurehead monarchs? Republics/city state federations? I assume the rest of the German states remain effectively absolute monarchies.

Same question with France and Poland actually, what does the government actually look like?

[Kuld von Reyn]

Yeah I'm gonna go with that, seems like the best choice. I've also taken your advice and rename that area Berg. Which also allowed me to make the change of adding Dortmund as a separate city-state ruled by the Grand Marshall, which I think makes sense for the League's capital. Otherwise the ruler of the now Kingdom of Berg would have too much influence.
I think he meant that you should change it to Mark rather than Berg, since the territories in question match the historical borders of the County of Mark more or less exactly.

Dortmund as city state with a sort of Imperial Free City-Emperor relationship with the Grand Marshall makes sense.

The borders of Münsterland annoy me. Not because they are wrong in any way, but that little isthmus connecting the southern and northern halves have always gotten on my nerves. Would be more aesthetically pleasing to give the isthmus to Prussia and make the northern half a separate state. Not sure if that would make sense in the situation though, and it's not like the borders of the HRE were ever drawn to look pretty.

[Direwolf22]

Say, what are the governments of the league actually like? English-style constitutionalism? Figurehead monarchs? Republics/city state federations? I assume the rest of the German states remain effectively absolute monarchies.

Same question with France and Poland actually, what does the government actually look like?

After I wrap up the Age of Revs (finally) in the next update I plan to do a series of bits that will look in detail at the various countries of Europe and the Americas analyzing their governments, ideologies, goals etc. so you'll get a better answer then.

For now I can say that yes the non-League German states are still absolute monarchies. As is Poland having centralized after the Civil War. France is an enlightened monarchy, with a growing sense of constitutionalism and a stronger parliamentary feel; though I wouldn't go as far to name it a Constitutional Monarchy at this time.

The League states vary. They are all monarchies but they all have a constitution and various degrees of representation and reform, all more so than France.

I think he meant that you should change it to Mark rather than Berg, since the territories in question match the historical borders of the County of Mark more or less exactly.

Dortmund as city state with a sort of Imperial Free City-Emperor relationship with the Grand Marshall makes sense.

The borders of Münsterland annoy me. Not because they are wrong in any way, but that little isthmus connecting the southern and northern halves have always gotten on my nerves. Would be more aesthetically pleasing to give the isthmus to Prussia and make the northern half a separate state. Not sure if that would make sense in the situation though, and it's not like the borders of the HRE were ever drawn to look pretty.

Yeah that makes more sense, well consider it Mark then, will refer to it as such from now on. I thought so, it had already been one of the Free Cities so why not keep it as such? Plus it adds a nice little dynamic in the middle of the League.

The isthmus bothered me as well, but like you said the HRE never had sensible aesthetic borders. Maybe in the future it will become an issue. Possibly leading to a Prussian-League split?

[Kuld von Reyn]

I made you some cartographic fan-art. I hope you like it. :D

http://i.imgur.com/nGHJP.png

If you don't like the flag - or any of the other details - they can easily be changed. I needed a flag to put there, however, so I made one up based on the two most frequently recurring colours among the major League states.

[Direwolf22]

I made you some cartographic fan-art. I hope you like it. :D

If you don't like the flag - or any of the other details - they can easily be changed. I needed a flag to put there, however, so I made one up based on the two most frequently recurring colours among the major League states.

That my friend is beautiful. Makes my map look pretty crap haha. No that is really good thank you. Not sure on the flag, too Spanish looking. I've come up with a flag already, though that's for a possible future federalised league. Regardless though that map is fantastic. Would you mind me asking what programme you used?

[Nicksplace27]

I like this TL, there's a lot of interesting Butterflies. I also like the alternate American Revolution.

[Kuld von Reyn]

How does the flag you came up with look? I realize it's for the future, but I don't want to use anything drastically different from the one they'll use in the future. I figured I could try a Red-Yellow bicolour, with a paler yellow, if this one didn't work out. Would that be better?

As for the program; I usually use GIMP. Inkscape is also good, especially if you have a good tutorial like this one (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=208848) to guide you, but I am not too fond of that program myself.

Oh, and I am glad you liked it. It was fun to make. :D
(http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=208848)

[Direwolf22]

I like this TL, there's a lot of interesting Butterflies. I also like the alternate American Revolution.

Thank you its always nice to see some new faces. Yeah the butterflies are still spreading. They should be hitting Asia soon.

How does the flag you came up with look? I realize it's for the future, but I don't want to use anything drastically different from the one they'll use in the future. I figured I could try a Red-Yellow bicolour, with a paler yellow, if this one didn't work out. Would that be better?

As for the program; I usually use GIMP. Inkscape is also good, especially if you have a good tutorial like this one (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=208848) to guide you, but I am not too fond of that program myself.

Oh, and I am glad you liked it. It was fun to make. :D


Yeah very good might have to employ you in the future for map making. GIMP? I have that though I never thought of using it for map making, might have a play around with it. Um flag wise. Well the scenario I am sort of devising for a federalised league imagines that the process would be led by the League's dominant states, Cologne, Munsterland and Westphalia. Thus it takes black from the cross of Cologne, red from the arms of Westphalia and blue from the flag of the former Prince-Bishopric of Münster, with the eagle of Dortmund as the capital. Here I'll just show you.

What do you think? I think its got a nice aggressive power to it.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Nor did I, and I use GIMP, (I used GIMP to design the actual Coat of Arms for Saxony-Bavaria), you've gotta teach me how to make maps like that. :eek:

[Kuld von Reyn]

Yeah very good might have to employ you in the future for map making. GIMP? I have that though I never thought of using it for map making, might have a play around with it. Um flag wise. Well the scenario I am sort of devising for a federalised league imagines that the process would be led by the League's dominant states, Cologne, Munsterland and Westphalia. Thus it takes black from the cross of Cologne, red from the arms of Westphalia and blue from the flag of the former Prince-Bishopric of Münster, with the eagle of Dortmund as the capital. Here I'll just show you.

What do you think? I think its got a nice aggressive power to it.
I am not sure if I approve of putting black in-between red and blue. Kind of messes with the colour balance, and violates the Rule of Tincture as well. (Though the Rule of Tincture is admittedly not as strict when it comes to flags. Just look at Oldenburg's flag.)

I came up with a few flags based on your reasoning for the one you made. Whether you use them or go with your own creation is of course up to you.

League flag. (Red and yellow are the dominant colours in the league as a whole. Cologne is the exception, really.)
http://s17.postimage.org/76d5r6p59/Disaster_at_Leuthen_League_of_the_Rhine_Flag_p.png


Fully federalized, Cologne black included. (They'll get to sue Belgium for stealing *their* colours ITTL...Assuming there's ever going to be a Belgium.)
http://s17.postimage.org/4rla6r8wd/Disaster_at_Leuthen_League_of_the_Rhine_Flag.png


Alternate version:
http://s17.postimage.org/su241mpjh/Disaster_at_Leuthen_League_of_the_Rhine_Flag_S.png

Nor did I, and I use GIMP, (I used GIMP to design the actual Coat of Arms for Saxony-Bavaria), you've gotta teach me how to make maps like that. :eek:
The Paths tool is your friend. Sapiento's tutorial (http://fav.me/d25fnyi) is also a good starting point. Certainly helped me, though my own style differs from the one showed in the tutorial. :)

[Kuld von Reyn]

Sorry for the double post. Updated the map I posted earlier. Mostly just cosmetic changes, though I did add a few things to the infobar on the side. Also changed the flag to something less Spanish-looking than on the previous one.

http://i.imgur.com/LDiqK.png

[Direwolf22]

Sorry for the double post. Updated the map I posted earlier. Mostly just cosmetic changes, though I did add a few things to the infobar on the side. Also changed the flag to something less Spanish-looking than on the previous one.


That is extremely good. I like the things you added as well, specifically the common currency. The flag is better I agree. I'm definitely going to have to send you map requests now for this timeline; though I am playing around with gimp a bit. Oh and the flags you posted above aren't visible for some reason.

Anyway I have an exam Monday morning (British Standard Time) so the Age of Revs Part VI will hopefully be published that night or Tuesday.

[Kuld von Reyn]

I'd be happy to work on any maps you have in mind. Maps of the (former) HRE will likely be done faster than other things, since that's my favourite area to work with. :)

Here's the flags I posted earlier again, in the same order:
The one on the map. Basic early League flag, reminiscent of historical HRE successor state flags.
http://i.imgur.com/D32ts.png

Same as above with Dortmünd eagle included.
http://i.imgur.com/emcOW.png

Later flag?
http://i.imgur.com/0Gglf.png

Good luck on your exam!

[Direwolf22]

I'd be happy to work on any maps you have in mind. Maps of the (former) HRE will likely be done faster than other things, since that's my favourite area to work with. :)

Here's the flags I posted earlier again, in the same order:
The one on the map. Basic early League flag, reminiscent of historical HRE successor state flags.
http://i.imgur.com/D32ts.png

Same as above with Dortmünd eagle included.
http://i.imgur.com/emcOW.png

Later flag?
http://i.imgur.com/0Gglf.png

Good luck on your exam!

Cheers its on French Government, so maybe see some updates on that in the future. Though more likely I will probably be so burnt out I won't want to even think about France.

Now those last two flags I like. The last one especially I think is very good and will probably find its way into this history.

[Voyager75]

I like the new map very much. Only problem is the misspelling of Dortmund (no ü).

If you intend to make maps for a later period of this timeline, just keep in mind that "Embden" is an earlier version of Emden. But I don't know when the name changed (early 19th century seems plausible).

[Vitruvius]

I just finished reading through the last update, there's been such a flurry of activity since I last checked in. I think its really great. I appreciate the way you're covering so many different areas with the last few posts and trying to show how different events are becoming more interconnected. I suppose I have a few questions on details but it seems like Germany is being progressively more fleshed out so I'm sure I'll have my answers soon enough. I'm glad to see that your TL still has a lot of momentum, so we can still expect a lot more out of it.

[Kuld von Reyn]

Cheers its on French Government, so maybe see some updates on that in the future. Though more likely I will probably be so burnt out I won't want to even think about France.

Now those last two flags I like. The last one especially I think is very good and will probably find its way into this history.
I hope your next update won't be about France suddenly disappearing from the map then. :p

Glad they were to your liking. :)


I like the new map very much. Only problem is the misspelling of Dortmund (no ü).

If you intend to make maps for a later period of this timeline, just keep in mind that "Embden" is an earlier version of Emden. But I don't know when the name changed (early 19th century seems plausible).
Aw buckit. Not that difficult to change though. Thank you for the heads up, and glad you liked the map.


Tiny fix (http://fav.me/d4zlpv9), if you want it. (Fixed Dortmund and moved a number. Nothing much.)

Edit: 'nother tiny fix (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/134/d/7/disaster_at_leuthen__the_league_of_the_rhine_1799_ by_rarayn-d4zlpv9.png). Use this.

[Direwolf22]

I just finished reading through the last update, there's been such a flurry of activity since I last checked in. I think its really great. I appreciate the way you're covering so many different areas with the last few posts and trying to show how different events are becoming more interconnected. I suppose I have a few questions on details but it seems like Germany is being progressively more fleshed out so I'm sure I'll have my answers soon enough. I'm glad to see that your TL still has a lot of momentum, so we can still expect a lot more out of it.

Yeah I'm trying to wrap up the Age of Revs in the next update (out tonight) so I can move on with the story. I feel like I'm wrestling with an octopus. I've got so many threads now (India, Germany, Spain, America, the Balkans etc.), now I'm trying to bring them all together and revise them. Yup Germany, and its new states and alliances, will be covered in an upcoming update, which will hopefully answer your questions.

[Direwolf22]

This is (finally) the last update on the Age of Revolutions. This one may seem a bit rushed but I had to tie it all up before it drove me insane. After this I intend to a few updates looking in detail at the new countries of Europe and the Americas so any questions on those should be answered in the near future.

The Age of Revolutions
(1790-1820)
Part VI: Settling Accounts


India. The subcontinent was not immune to the strife of the Age of Revolutions. Long divided between Britain (concentrated in Bengal and Bombay) and France (in the southeast), India would once more be a battleground between the two superpowers. The Maratha Confederacy was the largest indigenous states in the subcontinent at the turn of the century. It was however a weak nation. The French had been trying to undermine the state through their allies in Hyderabad. The British had, to counter, been trying to prop up the nation, with mixed success. In 1798 however the French managed to convince the Pawars of Udgir to break free from the Confederacy. The Marathas dispatched forces to crush the rebellion, but they were surprised when they encountered not only rebels, but soldiers from Hyderabad and even French troops. The Marathas were of course routed. When news of the defeat became known a palace coup was launched against Narayanrao Peshwa by generals intent on freeing the Confederacy from the Europeans and bringing an end to the decline. Well it backfired tremendously, and the Confederacy soon collapsed as various states soon broke away. The British in India were shocked at the collapse of their ally. Some argued in favour of doing whatever possible to save the Confederacy. The British Governor General of Bengal (the British top dog in India) Charles Cornwallis, opted for a different strategy. In his mind the Marathas were doomed. Instead Britain should support the best placed rebels and set them up as client states. Consequently Britain started aiding some of the fledgling states while France busied itself in the south. By 1800 the former Maratha Confederacy was now divided into five key players. French backed Udgir had gained a large area of control in the south, Baroda and Nagpur had both managed to carve out large areas of control and were backed by the British, in the north the Mughals had been overthrown by an ambitious general and a new state was rising around Delhi and in the east Orissa had increased its power.

Governor General of Bengal Charles Cornwallis:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/First_Marquis_of_Cornwallis.jpg/250px-First_Marquis_of_Cornwallis.jpg

Britain and France were at war in Europe and the Americas so India did not receive much in the way of support from either nation, so the war was to be fought mainly with proxies. Mysore took this opportunity to strike at France and invaded Hyderabad in May 1800 triggering the Second Franco-Mysore War. Meanwhile from 1800 to 1802 Cornwalls directed British support for Baroda and Nagpur which soon had large areas of land under their control. The new Kingdom of Delhi had unified the north of the country and was now battling against Sikhs and Afghans, and was for all intents and purposes no longer involved in the politics of the south. Orissa had signed an alliance with the British in 1801 and had supported their war against France. The French were losing out. No support was coming from Europe with France having far too many concerns, and with the British and their Portuguese allies controlling the seas. With the wars wrapping up in Europe and the Americas the British and French eventually made peace in India in 1805. Mysore was to gain lands in the south. The former Maratha Confederacy was divided up between the Kingdoms of Orissa, Baroda and Nagpur; the latter having freed itself of British influence. The rule of Delhi was recognised in the north west. In five years the entire geopolitical balance in India had shifted. Two new Indian states ruled in the north (Delhi and Nagpur) free of European influence and modernising their armed forces under powerful and ambitious kings. Mysore, Orissa and Baroda each had carved out spheres of influence and were favourable to Britain, but still determined to remain independent. While in the south east France's bid for more land was checked but their influence over Hyderabad was cemented while they began trying to drive the Indian states away from Britain.


Spain was at war with itself. The loyalists to King Charles IV were regrouping in the east of the country in Valencia and Barcelona. French troops, veterans from the German War, crossed the Pyrenees in support of the king. The rebels meanwhile had seized the capital Madrid and gained control of much of the West. An Anglo-Portugese army under the command of General John Moore. Moore's men began training the Spanish rebels as weapons were shipped in from Britain. 1799 was a quiet year in Spain however. Both sides were rallying forces and negotiations took place between loyalists and rebels throughout the year in Seville. These were mostly a sham though as the king refused to bend to any of the rebel wishes. The only major action of 1799 was a naval engagement where a British fleet that had been assisting the rebels was attacked by a Franco-Loyalist Spanish fleet near Cadiz off Cape Trafalgar. British Admiral Collingwood's force managed to inflict a decisive defeat on the Franco-Spanish fleet ensuring British naval superiority around the Iberian peninsula. In 1800 the action flared up again however with a loyalist assault on the city of Burgos. The rebels manage to hold the city against their Spanish kin but were unable to hold back a French force when it arrived and the city fell. A British attack on Murcia later that year was a success. The rest of the year saw fighting go back and forth throughout the east of the country. During this time the rebels had struggled to find a common cause. Republicans, conservatives and radicals all debated and argued over what their rebellion should be about. If it wasn't for the support of their allies and the insistence of Westminster on a solution it is likely the rebel cause would have splintered and collapsed. In June 1801 however word came to Madrid of a massacre by French troops in a town near Bilbao; the massacre was rumoured (falsely) to have been on the orders of King Charles. The result was a backlash against the monarchist faction and a radical-republican alliance won out. On July 4th 1801 the rebels in Madrid proclaimed the Spanish Republic. Floridablanca was the first choice to lead the republic but was in declining health and refused the position. Instead the post was offered to one of the rebels' leading generals and statesmen Miguel Ricardo de Álava, who was soon sworn is as President. The declaration of the Republic worried London and Lisbon, who were suddenly less sure of backing a radical republic. Nonetheless they stayed, fearing a French puppet Spain more than a republican government. The Republic went on a renewed offensive in 1802 and that year they made great ground pushing the loyalists and French back. For a moment it seemed as if total victory for the republic was in their grasp, indeed so high was the fear of the loyalists that a group smuggled out Prince Ferdinand for fear of capture by the rebels when they approached Valencia. Managing to slip by the British blockade Prince Ferdinand and his retinue fled to South America. By the beginning of 1803 however the rebels had lost steam. The British were becoming increasingly weary of war and the Portuguese were growing increasingly alarmed over the radical government in Madrid. Fortunately for the rebels the French too were tired of war, having by now been fighting non-stop since 1790, and on three continents. The war once more turned into a stalemate as both sides were too exhausted to continue. When Britain and France made peace in 1805 the Spanish situation was finally resolved in the Treaty of Paris. Despite all efforts at reconciliation in the end the warring powers were left with no choice but to accept the division of Spain. The Republic was recognised in Madrid while a rump Kingdom was organised in the east ruled from Barcelona under Charles IV.

President de Álava of the Spanish Republic
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Don_Miguel_Ricardo_de_Alava_by_William_Salter_crop ped.jpg/225px-Don_Miguel_Ricardo_de_Alava_by_William_Salter_crop ped.jpg

War had still been raging simultaneously in the Americas. The UPA and the United Provinces of New Granada had both, by 1801, established independence. In Peru and further south however the Spanish still held sway. A Granadan attempt to strike south was repulsed and the new nation retreated to concentrate on internal affairs and never threatened to strike south again. The Spanish now could have possibly launched a campaign to retake their lost colony to the north had not word of the civil war back in Spain arrived. The Spanish in Peru were soon in chaos. Many wished to side with the rebels, while others, mainly in the officer class, were loyal to the king. Mutinies broke out in the army. In late 1801 however word came of the declaration of the Republic. The army en masse declared support for the Republic, aided by the arrival of a Republican delegation from Spain, and the monarchists were forced to flee further south. The new republican forces, supported by Britain, had by late 1802, had gained control of all the lands of the former Viceroyalty of Peru. With Britain now focused on events in North America the Republicans here were left on their own. They decided to strike south and drive the monarchists out of the Americas, expecting limited and confused resistance. In this they were deeply mistaken. The monarchists had rallied around the young exile Prince Ferdinand and beat back the invasion. The two sides skirmished throughout the next few years but each was too preoccupied with domestic affairs and lacked the strength to go on the offensive. When the Treaty of Paris was signed Peru was made an autonomous province of the Republic while the south was given back to King Charles IV. This encountered a slight snag however when Prince Ferdinand, who had long since grown distant (in character as well as geography) from his father refused to submit to his father whose failures at home were viewed as weak. Indeed when it became known in Buenos Aires that Charles had given up half of Spain, more than half, the elites were astonished and angered by his apparent weakness. A few ambitious men capitalised on Ferdinand's own dreams and convinced him to declare himself King. Most of the men around him rallied to his cause, and those who didn't either fled or kept their reservations quiet. Ferdinand was soon proclaimed King of Spain and the Rio de la Plata. Neither Ferdinand or his father had the will or capability to strike at one another and so the Kingdom of Rio de la Plata achieved independence without a shot being fired. At the end of 1805 there were three Spains in the world.

In North America too the fighting continued. Louisiana had by now achieved full independence. To its north a collection of native tribes had driven the French out and were soon formed into a British protectorate. French Canada meanwhile was still fighting. New England forces, with British maritime assistance, had been gaining the upper hand. The appearance of the CAS however forced them to redeploy men to their southern border. The Confederates meanwhile were convinced it was only a matter of time until the British invaded and until they made peace with France and turned on them. So, sensing that Britain was currently too distracted to act decisively, the Confederates invaded New England. “Strike hard, strike fast, and strike now, and England will have to accept us”, words written by President Madison on the day the attack was ordered. A Confederate army invaded New England and drove into Pennsylvania. They were repulsed however by the more numerous and experienced New Englanders The fighting freed up the French in the north who began a counter-attack to drive the British and their allies out and back into New England. The Dominion found itself at war on two fronts. In 1803 there was a decisive battle near the town of Gettysburg in southern Pennsylvania, a defeat for the Confederacy. With France unable to mount a significant threat in North America due to commitments abroad the government in Boston was able to devote its full resources to the south. In mid 1804 they managed to capture Maryland but were defeated in a series of battles in northern Virginia. Britain and New England, both tired of war, were eager for peace. They offered Charleston peace with Maryland being ceded to the Dominion. President Madison was unwilling to give up the land but with the forces arrayed against him and with Louisiana encouraging slave risings in the south and west, he felt he had no choice. Peace and the CAS' independence were both part of the Treaty of Paris.

A side effect of the declaration of the Spanish Republic was the Neapolitan rising. The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies had been ruled by Charles IV's brother Ferdinand. When hearing of the republican declaration in Madrid Ferdinand acted to prevent such a fate happening in his own realm. Suspected radicals were arrested and troops were called up. This worked well in Sicily itself but on the mainland the people rose in revolt when a few Sicilian soldiers got a bit carried away. Elites in Naples took power and declared a republic, inspired by the happenings in Spain. Ferdinand fled to Palermo where he asked for support from France and his brother. Both however were far too busy. Soldiers on the mainland mutinied and went over to the Republic. In 1805 the Neapolitan Republic was recognised in Paris when Britain threatened to strike at Palermo if Ferdinand didn't accept the new state. French troops soon arrived in Sicily and in the Papal States soon after the treaty was signed to prevent any threat to these governments from Naples.

The Ottoman Sultan Mustafa meanwhile was not having a happy time. The war in the Balkans was increasingly going against his nation as Serbia, Greece, and the Danubian principalities were in revolt. The Russians were driving south in a campaign to assist the risings. The Russians seemed unstoppable. Two things happened in 1799 that gave the Sultan hope. First the Austrians made peace with France and begin to move troops to their eastern border. Now Vienna was hardly a friend of the Ottomans, but they had a similar fear of a Russian dominated Balkans. Secondly the Ottomans achieved a surprise victory at Sofia routing the Russians who had driven too far too fast. Fighting continued into 1801 and although the rebels had made significant gains it no longer looked like the Ottoman state would collapse. Mustafa however was aware that any chance of a reconquest was fanciful. When in early 1802 the Austrian emperor Joseph II offered to mediate a peace (fearing a Russian triumph) the Sultan accepted. The Treaty of Budapest in November of 1802 saw the recognition of the new independent Kingdoms of Greece and Serbia as well as the new United Kingdom of the Danube ruled by King Alexandru Callimachi. The Ottomans had lost the war, but, free of these troublesome provinces and now with a more ambitious Sultan the Empire set about rebuilding itself. Tsar Paul had won control of the Crimea in the treaty along with a trio of new allies in the south. This new Russia had its first victory, and there were many more to come.

The Treaty of Paris ended the most intense period of the Age of Revolutions. Fighting still continued to rage in the Americas though between Louisiana and the CAS. The two constantly skirmished along their border as New Orleans continually tried to ferment slave uprisings. In the UPA and New Granada small bands of Spanish loyalists continued to wage a guerrilla war for many years. Similar small scale skirmishes also plagued La Plata and the Spanish Republican controlled Peru. The final battle of the Age of Revolutions is considered to be the Battle of San Rafael in 1820, a small battle involving less than 200 men in which the UPA eliminated the last tiny holdout of royalist Spain in California.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2997/treatyofromeeurope2wip2.png

[Kuld von Reyn]

Perhaps the Kingdom of Spain will eventually be forced to renounce its claims to the rest of Iberia and rename itself the Kingdom of Aragon/Catalonia? Doubt they'd accept it willingly, but I'd be surprised if they retain their independence in at all in the long term, given the current situation.

And I see you have improved your cartography skills too. Nicely done! :)

[Direwolf22]

Perhaps the Kingdom of Spain will eventually be forced to renounce its claims to the rest of Iberia and rename itself the Kingdom of Aragon/Catalonia? Doubt they'd accept it willingly, but I'd be surprised if they retain their independence in at all in the long term, given the current situation.

And I see you have improved your cartography skills too. Nicely done! :)

Haha yeah thanks, map took me ages. It will eventually drop the "of Spain" part, not for a while though. I'm unsure on Aragon or Catalonia though. Which do you think is more likely. I'm leaning towards Catalonia.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Considering how much territory the Spanish Kingdom holds at the time, and how similar it is to the Crown Lands of Aragon, I believe that the Kingdom of Aragon would probably be the likeliest case. Especially considering that Catalonia (IMHO) would be the areas of Catalonia and to some extent, Valencia and the Balearics, while Aragon had all those plus the modern-day province of Aragon, which is what your map most likely has me to believe it has.

[Kuld von Reyn]

Aye, Aragon seems the best bet given its depicted borders. Aragon is a more prestigeous and well-established title than Catalonia is as well.

[Direwolf22]

Aragon it is then. Its a ways off yet anyway. Have to wait until stubborn old Charles dies before that can happen.

[Nanwe]

Aragon it is then. Its a ways off yet anyway. Have to wait until stubborn old Charles dies before that can happen.

If he is anything similar to OTL Charles IV, he isn't stubborn, his wife is and he is his puppet :p

But yeah, despite how much I hate a separated Spain, this liberal republic might be a good thing since its liberal policies and no Napoleonic-scale conflict will have destroyed our incipient industrial capacity, while we would still keep iron and coal rich areas :D

[Direwolf22]

If he is anything similar to OTL Charles IV, he isn't stubborn, his wife is and he is his puppet :p

But yeah, despite how much I hate a separated Spain, this liberal republic might be a good thing since its liberal policies and no Napoleonic-scale conflict will have destroyed our incipient industrial capacity, while we would still keep iron and coal rich areas :D

Haha true enough. Like the Ottoman Empire, Spain will benefit from the loss of territory. Able now to undergo the needed reforms we will Spain rebuild from the Civil War. Plus the Republic still holds Peru and almost all other Spanish colonial holdings which were secured with help from the Royal Navy.

[Nanwe]

Haha true enough. Like the Ottoman Empire, Spain will benefit from the loss of territory. Able now to undergo the needed reforms we will Spain rebuild from the Civil War. Plus the Republic still holds Peru and almost all other Spanish colonial holdings which were secured with help from the Royal Navy.

Then I wonder if the republic can accomodate the claims of the criollos within its constitutional framework, that is, criollo-elected governors from among criollos and equal representation in the Cortes.

Btw, could you upload a world map unless you have and i missed it :p

[Direwolf22]

Then I wonder if the republic can accomodate the claims of the criollos within its constitutional framework, that is, criollo-elected governors from among criollos and equal representation in the Cortes.

Btw, could you upload a world map unless you have and i missed it :p

Well we shall see what happens. I'll do a world map in a bit; maybe attach it to the next update.

[Direwolf22]

Note: There is an error on the above map. Russian Karelia should be Swedish being ceded following Sweden's intervention in Russia during the Civil War.

[Direwolf22]

I am on holiday in Spain so the next update is delayed a bit. Though I hope to get it done by the weekend.

- Direwolf

[anja]

Read your TL, I love it, good work.

Nice to see Wuerzburg survive, but Duchy of Farnconia would be the preferred name, since the prince-bishops had a long claim on the title of the dukedom. A Union with Ansbach may be possible, because it was also a member of the Franconian Circle.

I wonder how you choose the ruler of the new states, especial when the leading part was a prince-bishopric?
E.g. you have the former prince-archbishop of Cologne as the new king, how will the succession happen? He is still a Roman-catholic prelate.

[Direwolf22]

Read your TL, I love it, good work.

Nice to see Wuerzburg survive, but Duchy of Farnconia would be the preferred name, since the prince-bishops had a long claim on the title of the dukedom. A Union with Ansbach may be possible, because it was also a member of the Franconian Circle.

I wonder how you choose the ruler of the new states, especial when the leading part was a prince-bishopric?
E.g. you have the former prince-archbishop of Cologne as the new king, how will the succession happen? He is still a Roman-catholic prelate.

Thank you, always nice to see new faces.

I actually did debate naming it Franconia. Maybe I'll remane it that if it forms a union with Ansbach. Maybe as a counter to the great powers of Germany?

Now the next update that I am currently working on (will be delayed due to my holiday) is going to cover Germany from about 1805 to 1830. In that I will attempt to answer your questions more deeply. As of now I can say that many of the new/changed states have monarchs from other houses, Hohenzollerns, Hapsburgs etc. The former prince-archbishops wil either a) have an heir or b) nominate a successor. Some with more success than others. Like I said I will go into detail more later. Bloody confusing though with all the various houses, rules, ties etc. One of the reasons I'm glad to get rid of the HRE.

[Direwolf22]

On Friday I will put up the next update. The Germany one will be delayed as this one will focus on colonial events in Africa and Asia; mainly because it will give me an excuse to put up the world map.

[ingemann]

I can't believe you didn't talk about potatoes here! (My bad if you did, but I can't find anything in the thread about it.)

Frederick the Great was an important sponsor of the potato. He recognized in his invasion of the Rhineland where potatoes were becoming popular that it allowed the rural populations to survive military incursions and occupations. As such he gave state support for the potato to be grown so that when Prussia got involved in wars the rural population wouldn't be devastated. This was usually the case in European warfare before the potato was adopted. Case in point: the Thirty Years' War, in which huge percentages of the rural population of Germany died because of famine, induced because of the many soldiers that were forced to live off the land, seizing the crops of the peasants. With the adoption of the potato, the peasants didn't suffer so much when wartime came. Because of Frederick the Great's sponsorship, Russia and France in particular gave state support to the potato as well (well, Russia wasn't so successful, but France was, though not to the degree of Prussia).

With an early death of Frederick the Great, this beneficial effect of the potato will not be realized for much longer, so you'll get more rural fatalities during the wars conducted in Germany.

Consider it! :)

The knowledge of the potato strenghts was common even before Frederick the Great, and he was by no mean the only German prince pushing it.

[ingemann]

After I have read the whole thread through.

1: I like it, it was a interesting change.
2: Historical in the decades/century after the Vienna Congress a boom followed in the Nordrhine-Westphalen. Here it's united in a loose confederation together with western Lower Saxony, here I see the same. Austria had shown under Marie-Theresa the benefit of a custom union, and the different princes in the League of the Rhine will recognise that. As such we will see it booming following the war.

[RandomWriterGuy]

What will happen with the rest of Spqnish colonial America?

[RandomWriterGuy]

No update? it is Friday!

[Direwolf22]

After I have read the whole thread through.

1: I like it, it was a interesting change.
2: Historical in the decades/century after the Vienna Congress a boom followed in the Nordrhine-Westphalen. Here it's united in a loose confederation together with western Lower Saxony, here I see the same. Austria had shown under Marie-Theresa the benefit of a custom union, and the different princes in the League of the Rhine will recognise that. As such we will see it booming following the war.

Yeah the League has a very strong position economically. They will gradually draw closer and more integrated and with the rich Rhineland under their control they will emerge as a real economic powerhouse.

What will happen with the rest of Spqnish colonial America?

Well Peru is Republican controlled. The rest are de jure under Republican control but are under varying degrees. Some have been picked up by Britain during the war while the CAS is staring greedily at restless Cuba.

No update? it is Friday!

I don't know why I give myself deadlines I never follow them haha. Tonight I promise, once the Euro football is over.

[RandomWriterGuy]

There is a TL named God Is A Frenchman that may provide you some inspiration.

[Ahab]

Is this tread alive yet? because it's too awesome to die!

[Direwolf22]

Is this tread alive yet? because it's too awesome to die!

It's alive don't worry. I've just been sick recently so I haven't managed to get round to updating it.

[kasumigenx]

I think Lower Silesia north of Oder and Upper Silesia will be inevitably ceded back to Poland in the Age of Nationalism, since it was predominantly Polish before Frederick the Great seized Silesia and it will remain as that because it remains a part of the Habsburg Empire.

[Direwolf22]

I think Lower Silesia north of Oder and Upper Silesia will be inevitably ceded back to Poland in the Age of Nationalism, since it was predominantly Polish before Frederick the Great seized Silesia and it will remain as that because it remains a part of the Habsburg Empire.

Well with a stronger Poland ITTL that's definitely a possibility. Though the rise of nationalism will be delayed compared to OTL, and will be dealt with differently. The only real nationalist movement in the world at this time is in the United Kingdom of the Danube, and that is a top-down nationalism not the other way around. But yes Silesia will remain a hot spot as Poland seeks to reassert itself.

[RandomWriterGuy]

I was wondering about if the Balkans will become independent all together over time.

[Direwolf22]

( A mini update of sorts. Covers areas and events during the Age of Revs. outside of Europe, India and the Americas in brief; as well as giving me an excuse to update and show a world map. Work on a larger update on Germany is still ongoing. Hope to post soon).

Exploration and Conquest
(1790-1810)


Out of all the major colonial powers only the Dutch managed to stay neutral from the great conflicts of the turn of the century. This roughly twenty year period has been called by some, mainly Dutch writers, as the second Golden Age of the Netherlands. As Britain and France dueled across the globe, Dutch explorers and colonists gradually expanded the nation's overseas empire and charting new lands. While the British were pre-occupied elsewhere a Dutch expedition had set off from Jakarta and headed southeast to make good Dutch claims on Nieuw Zeeland . A successful colony was established at New Rotterdam in 1797. During this time the Dutch too consolidated their control over Sumatra, Ceylon and various other colonies. The Anglo-French wars over India had, not only distracted them from actions elsewhere, but had worried the Dutch who feared that such conflict would disrupt their lines of communication from the base in South Africa to Asia. In the early 1800s therefore the Dutch began claiming and settling the island of Madagascar (with settlers drawn from those in South Africa and families wishing to escape from the troubles in Europe), their colony there was named. From 1802-1805 the Dutch fought the Merinan War, the only major Dutch conflict of the period. The local African kingdom put up a brave struggle but was eventually subdued and placed under Dutch influence, de jure independent but de facto run by the Netherlands. In this period too the Dutch East India Company which had been experiencing a relative decline was abolished. Instead the various colonies in the east were divided into African, Indian and East Indian regions each with a 'capital' of sorts (Cape Town, Colombo and Jakarta) and was ruled by a Viceroy appointed from the Netherlands; the move was designed to increase government control over the colonies and increase direct management, a plan influenced by British actions in Bengal and North America. The only incident of real concern for the Dutch was a dispute with Britain in 1805 over Australia and Nieuw Zeeland, both of which were claimed by Britain and the Netherlands. In the end, with neither side wanting war, it was agreed that Australia would be recognised as Britain's while the Dutch maintained their influence over Nieuw Zeeland.By the year 1810 the Dutch Empire in the Indian Ocean was a strong and rich collection of colonies, trading posts and military outposts.


Elsewhere in the world Britain and France had, once the war ended, begun picking up a few pieces of their own. Spanish Hispaniola and Pueto Rico had been seized by Britain during the war with Spain. Puerto Rico was returned to the Spanish Republic in 1806 by Britain, though they kept the rest. Britain too had cemented its claim on Australia while establishing new bases in Africa and the South Atlantic. It also waged a campaign of conquest along the African east coast, taking a few bases, to secure their own passage to India. France had not been wonderfully successful outside of Europe during the Age of Revolutions. In the immediate post-war period it was occupied with defeating a rebellion in its colony in Saint-Domingue and reasserting its influence in southeastern India. It caught a lucky break in 1807 however. The Treaty of Paris had placed all former Spanish colonial territory under Republican control, minus of course the lands controlled by the UPA, New Granada and the Kingdom of La Plata. The Republic tried hard to reassert itself in these lands and had varying degrees of success; in the Philippines though they encountered a serious problem. The Spanish officials in Manilla were loyal to the King in Barcelona and refused to submit to Republican authority. They rebelled and by 1808 were in control of most of the islands. The Spanish (Republic and Kingdom) lacked the ability, or indeed the will in some cases, to reconquer the islands. In Britain there was fierce debate on what to do, do they take the islands for their own, or give them to the republic, or leave them be etc. By the time they came to a conclusion however, it was too late. The French, who had fortunately sent a fleet to India recently to reinforce and replace the garrison, had no such dilemma. In 1809 the French expedition sailed to Manilla and overwhelmed and seized the colony for themselves. The French replaced the Spanish as colonial governors and the natives went on about their business. The Republic and Britain protested the move, but did nothing; so recently embroiled in war. The Spanish Kingdom expected the French to turn the islands over to them. The French had no intention of doing so however and the result was a cooling of relations between Paris and Barcelona. The conflict however was a great success for France and reignited French colonial ambitions, though the expense and effort of holding the Philippines was to prove greater than expected for France.

The World in 1810: Following the End of the Age of Revolutions

[Direwolf22]

I was wondering about if the Balkans will become independent all together over time.

I'm confused, are you asking if the Balkans will become one independent country? Then the answer is no.

[RandomWriterGuy]

I'm confused, are you asking if the Balkans will become one independent country? Then the answer is no.

No, I'm saying if each region will soon be independent.

[RandomWriterGuy]

I'm confused. I saw a map of North America in the TL and it showed France controlling most of OTL Canada, now I see Britain controlling some of that land. Is it possible the map with the French-dominated North America is wrong?

[Direwolf22]

I'm confused. I saw a map of North America in the TL and it showed France controlling most of OTL Canada, now I see Britain controlling some of that land. Is it possible the map with the French-dominated North America is wrong?

France lost a lot of its Canadian territories to Britain in the Treaty of Paris. It now has only its core Quebec land left, so the above map is the correct one.

No, I'm saying if each region will soon be independent.

Well it remains to be seen if the Turks can hold them; though the first dominoes may have fallen.

[RandomWriterGuy]

Other questions about the North American map.

Will Louisiana have a Manifest Adestiny like the OTL USA?

Will France get the Canadian land back?

Will the Southern USA area face slavery rebellion soon?

[Razgriz 2K9]

I dunno if it would be wise for a Manifest Destiny for Louisiana, only since it'd piss of the British in the case of New England...though it would be awesome for Louisiana to control the Pacific Northwest

[CobaltKnight]

I'm feeling like there will be a race for colonies sooner in TTL than in our own.

[Direwolf22]

Other questions about the North American map.

Will Louisiana have a Manifest Adestiny like the OTL USA?

Will France get the Canadian land back?

Will the Southern USA area face slavery rebellion soon?

Kind of. Louisiana will have a desire to "Spread the Revolution to the Pacific", but it won't be a quasi-religious notion like the US had.

No it won't. French expansionism in North America is at an end, they are concerned now more with maintaining their territory, and expanding their empire elsewhere.

Yes. This will be a major issue in North America. Especially with Louisiana backing the slaves.

I dunno if it would be wise for a Manifest Destiny for Louisiana, only since it'd piss of the British in the case of New England...though it would be awesome for Louisiana to control the Pacific Northwest

Well Louisiana isn't looking to invade New England. A push to the Pacific yes, though not to the east. We're gonna have a Louisiana-UPA-Britain-Russia-Native struggle for the northwest.

I'm feeling like there will be a race for colonies sooner in TTL than in our own.

Yup. We've got the Dutch, French, Brits, and Spains all looking for territory. Plus New England is after all a maritime power.

[RandomWriterGuy]

But there is still and for France in Canada to claim. Why can't they look towards that?

The "foolish fatherland" scenario will happen to the Latin American states, right?

Will the Spanish Republic hold on to Peru forever? And if not, what will happen to it?

Will Brazil gain independence?

Will France conquer most of North Africa as it did in OTL?

Will Britain also claim South Africa?

Will India be owned by one of the two conquerors if a major war over it has occurred?

Will there be a developed code similar to the Napoleonic Code?

Will there be any movement for a unified Germany or Italy?

Will Switzerland still be recognized as a neutral state?

[Kuld von Reyn]

Been a while since the last update. How's that update on Germany coming along?

[Direwolf22]

(Excuses, excuses. Better late than never. Hopefully this will be followed soon by more updates. Back to Germany now then off to the Americas.)


A New Germany
1800-1830


The old balance of power in Germany had been broken by the Treaty of Rome (1799) and a new political status quo had settled in central Europe. The period of the Triumvirate (c.1770-1799) was now at an end. Prussia remained a strong power in northern Germany though it had not majorly expanded following the Revolutionary Wars and the damage done by the reign of the previous king Frederick William to the military being readily apparent. The nation however had managed to reassert itself somewhat. Under the determined King Wilhelm the army had been restored to its previous prestige and had held its own with pride during the fighting against Saxons, Bavarians and the French. Saxony-Bavaria was now a unified country and dominated a large stretch of German lands in the east. It did however have a long and volatile border with Austria to its east and Prussia sitting to its north. Austria-Hungary had reforged itself into a united empire and sought to balance itself between west and east Europe. It still wielded great influence within Germany, despite the end of the Holy Roman Empire, through its close ties with Berlin and Dortmund. The League of the Rhine was the newest political force on the scene, and represented a new power block. Friendly with Vienna and a close ally of the Prussians, the League was the banner carrier for the German reformists. Hanover was the fifth major player now in Germany. Ruled by the ageing and increasingly deluded King George (formerly George III of Britain) the nation was at odds with its neighbours and was increasingly being drawn into the French sphere while courting the Poles.


Prussia was on the winning side of the Revolutionary Wars. It had however gained little for its efforts. It had received a few fromer Saxon lands in the west, though they were now members of the League of the Rhine. The administrative grey area between Berlin and Dortmund over who ruled these lands would be a thorn in the otherwise close relations these two countries shared until the matter was resolved following the Pommeranian War. The Prussian nation went through a military renaissance under Wilhelm in the decades following the Treaty of Rome. The cultural period that went hand in hand with neglect for the army that prevailed uner Frederick William was reviled by the Prussian elite. The traditionalists came once more to the forefront in this new period. The army was restored to its previous position at the heart of the Prussian nation. Buoyed by military success in the war the young King Wilhelm yearened for another conflict, one that would be a decisive Prussian triumph. In the late 1810s Prussia tried to push Poland towards war by demanding the portion of land seperating Brandenburg from East Prussia. Poland obviously refused, as intended. King Wilhelm did not get his war though, when it became clear that Austria would not support them (as Vienna was still focused on the post-war situation in the Balkans) and France announced it would support its Bourbon ally, the Prussians backed down. In 1826 however with many of the great powers focussed elsewhere, Berlin got its war. A small skirmish with Swedish troops in the north was exploted by the Prussian government as an excuse to seize Pomerania. The Prussian army soon moved into the Swedish territory. A battle in August of 1826 near Stettin was won decisively by the Prussians. Further advance was delayed though by Swedish maritime control, which landed a fresh Swedish army in the north. Swedish diplomacy soon brought Denmark and nearby Mecklenburg (both concerend about Prussian expansionism) into the war on their side. A few months later though the Prussians managed to bring a Swedish-Mecklenburg army to battle near Anklam, which again was a crushing victory for the Prussians. Anklam was exploited by Berlin and a deal was signed with Dortmund for the military support of the League. In exchange the disputed Prussian territory in the Rhineland was ceded to the League (they were to become special zones ruled directly by the Grand Marshal).


League forces, acting for the first time as a united military unit, invaded Danish Oldenburg. The League forces were initially repuled by the more organized Danish forces. However two decades of industrialisation in the League soon played its part. From 1808 to 1825 railroad construction had spread rapidly across the Rhineland. British industrialists provided the early expertise (for which they made great profit) but soon the Rhinelanders themselves took over the majority of the project. The complex waterways and natural resource rich lands of the area proved perfect breeding grounds for this type of industrialism. Though it began in Britain the Industrial Revolution was well undeway in the League by the early 1820s. The unique political structure of the League, divided yet unified, provided ample competition for growth while provding enough political security for private enterprise. The railroads allowed Rhinelander forces to be gathered quickly from throughout the League which in 1828 launched a new offensive into Oldenburg which overwhelmed the Danish defenders. Other domestic events in the League were quiet and served more as a precurssor to future events than anything dynamic in their own right. Some notable events were the 1817 death of Maximilian Francis of Cologne. Without a legal heir there was dispute over who should succeed him as King. The issue was avoided however when in Cologne, always one of the more reformist states, the people declared a republic following the Spanish style. Hans Maier, an influential and wealthy lawyer (as well as a veteran of the Revolutionary Wars) was elected the nation's first Chancellor. He did not inherit the title of Grand Marshall however which the League electors voted to give to King Philipp of Westphalia, who like many of the other League monarchs had been made king (drawn from either the clergy or nobility, in this case the latter), following the Treaty of Rome. The existence of a republic within the League was feared to become a major divisive issue, but turned out not to be so, perhaps the election of a monarch to Grand Marshall helped balance this issue. Cologne, however, would prove to be far from the last of the League states to abandon the monarchist system.

http://imageshack.us/a/img854/4269/pomeranianwar.png

The Prussians had followed up their victory at Anklam by invading Mecklenburg. Resistance to the Prussian advance gradually collapsed throughout 1828. Wismar fell in July and signalled the effective end of resistance. Denmark was committed to fighting on but with Mecklenburg overrun and the government in Stockholm now determined to make peace due to reports of Russian troops massing along the Finnish border in the east, peace was signed in Vienna in August of 1828. Pomerania and Mecklenburg were ceded to Prussia while Oldenburg became the latest member of the League of the Rhine, chooising its own king drawn for the local nobility (though Oldenburg would always remain one of the more conservative of the League states). The victory restored Prussian pride and was the League's first forray into the international stage. So successful was it that the Duchy of Trier, wary of France, applied to enter the League in early 1829, and was accepted. Other German states however were less impressed and more concerend about the League-Prussian alliance. Hanover (now ruled by George's son William, one of the few of his children to flee with him to Hanover) signed an alliance with Saxony-Bavaria while the reamining southern German nations too began to look to foreign alliances and collective defense.


The years following the Revolutionary Wars were a time of great change in Austria. The nation, now known as Austria-Hungary, experienced rapid constitutional change. Joseph II, known in Austria to this day as “Joseph the Great Reformer” died in 1806. He was succeeded by his son, Francis, crowned Francis I Emperor of Austria and Hungary, King of Bohemia and Croatia. Francis, like his father, was a reformist, though perhaps more pragmatic and less ideological than his father. The early years of Francis' reign were focused on the Balkans. The Ottoman retreat from this area was celebrated in Vienna and Budapest, the defeat of their ancient enemy was always good news. However the mood was soon dampened when it became evident that Russia had now replaced the Turk as the dominant power in this region. The new nations of Serbia, Greece and the UKD all were allies of the Tsar and gave him considerable influence in the Balkans. Consequently Francis, quietly, began improving relations with the Ottomans. Neither liked the other but both feared the bear more. Though no official alliance was signed Austro-Turkish relations improved strongly in this period and both were determined to halt the Russian advance south. Francis too in this period improved upon the already established system of mandaroty education. Encouraging its growth throughout the Empire, as well as making German as well as Magyar compulsory for all students. Higher education too was expanded and improved, with the University of Vienna becoming arguably the greatest in continental Europe; though women still were barred, or discouraged, from most high learning. A small rising took place in Illyria in 1827 but it was soundly defeated. Francis too sought to court Poland, seen as a useufl ally against Russia. This was one of the major failings of Austrian diplomacy in this period. Though cautious of Russia, Poland too feared Austria's ally Prussia, while still harbouring territorial designs on Silesia, which would soon lead to war between the two nations. Consequently King Louis II preferred to maintain his alliance with his Bourbon cousin in France.


Saxony-Bavaria was a new force on the world stage following the Treaty of Rome. It was however an artifical creation, joined solely by dynastic union. The ageing Frederick-Augusts I was no reformer. His rule saw the forcing together of these two nations. The militaries were integrated and rule was increasingly centralised in Munich. Though Dresden was the Saxon capital, it was seen as too vulnerable to attack, plus Munich had a grander history and prestige to it, or so the King saw it. Saxony-Bavaria had intended to intervene in the Pommeranian War against Prussia in the 1820s but eventually stayed out for three principal reasons: lack of forthcoming French support, the fear of Austrian intervention and the string of Prussian victories. Instead the Saxobavarians invaded neighbouring Gotha and conquered the nation in only a few weeks. Frederick-Augusts I died in 1826 and was succeeded by his son, Maximilian. In all the period of 1800-1830 was a quiet time for this new nation. It saw the welding together of these two nations and the creation of a Saxobavarian identity. The nation did not, like the League, industrialise and instead was a centre of reactionism, arugably the centre of it in Europe. The alliance with France was paramount in Munich's foreign policy. This however caused discontent amongst other south German states. The union of Swabia and Ansbach in 1828 (creating the United Kingdom of Swabia) as well as the alliance signed between Hessia and Wurzburg (1829) can both be attributed to Saxobavarian activies in this period. Talks between the remaining three German nations (Baden, Wurttemberg and the Palatinate) had amounted to nothing by 1830.
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/%7B%7BInfobox%20Military%20Conflict%20%7Cimage=[[File:Schlacht-bei-koeniggraetz-von-georg-bleibtreu.jpg%7C300px%7C]]%20%7Ccaption=%20Battle%20of%20Anklam,%20January%2 01827%20%7Cconflict=Pomeranian%20War%20%7Cdate=Mar ch%201826%20-%20August%201828%20%7Cplace=Pomerania%20and%20Nort hern%20Germany%20%7Cterritory=Swedish%20Pomerania% 20and%20Mecklenburg%20ceded%20to%20Prussia.%20Olde nburg%20joins%20League%20of%20the%20Rhine.%20%7Cre sult=Prussian-League%20Victory;%20[[Treaty%20of%20Vienna%20%281828%29]]%20%7Ccombatant1=%7B%7Bflagicon%7CPrussia%7C1750%7 D%7D%20[[Kingdom%20of%20Prussia]]%20%3Cbr%3E[[File:Flagge%20F%C3%83%C2%BCrstentum%20Lippe.svg%7C border%7C22px%7Calt=%7Clink=]]%20[[League%20of%20the%20Rhine]]%20%3Csmall%3EFebruary%201827-%3C/small%3E%20%7Ccombatant2=%7B%7Bflag%7CDenmark%7D%7 D%20%3Cbr%3E[[File:Flagge%20Gro%C3%83%C2%9Fherzogt%C3%83%C2%BCme r%20Mecklenburg.svg%7Cborder%7C22px%7Calt=%7Clink=]]%20[[Duchy%20of%20Mecklenburg-Schwerin%7CMecklenburg]]%3Cbr%3E%7B%7Bflagcountry%7CSweden%7D%7D%20%7Ccomm ander1=%7B%7Bflagicon%7CPrussia%7C1750%7D%7D[[Wilhelm%20I]]%3Cbr%20/%3E%20[[File:Flagge%20F%C3%83%C2%BCrstentum%20Lippe.svg%7C border%7C22px%7Calt=%7Clink=]][[Philipp%20of%20Westphalia]]%3Cbr%20/%3E%20%7Ccommander2=%7B%7Bflagicon%7CDenmark%7D%7D %20[[Frederick%20VI]]%3Cbr%3E%7B%7Bflagicon%7CSweden%7D%7D%20[[Gustav%20V]]%20%7Cstrength1=145,000%20%3Cbr%3E%20300%20guns%20 %7Cstrength2=80,000%20%3Cbr%3E%20165%20guns%20%7D% 7D

[Direwolf22]

Unsure on what to do about Holstein. Shall I have it join Denmark? Or maybe have it drawn into the League's sphere?

[Iserlohn]

Unsure on what to do about Holstein. Shall I have it join Denmark? Or maybe have it drawn into the League's sphere?


First of all: Interesting developments, the expansion of Prussia and the League of the Rhine are fitting geopolitically speaking, Swabia was already predicted by your readership and, again, just fits. Also good forshadowing on the future Polish-Austrian War. If France intervenes in that it can be quite the bloody conflict (Austria, Prussia, the League vs. France and Poland, ouch).

Regarding Holstein... The German population will most likely see Prussia and the League as a way to remain independent, with Austria-Hungary and Hannover being an alternative. I honestly don't think that they would want to (re-)join Denmark, seeing how Denmark took a too heavy recently.

[Kuld von Reyn]

The update was well worth the wait. Fantastic work. :D

The League is shaping up nicely, and it's nice to see Prussia finally regaining her confidence and prestige. I look forward to seeing what the future has in store for Germany. (And the rest of the world, but I am personally interested in Germany the most)

I don't know what you have planned for Saxony-Bavaria, but how about Nürnberg as a future capital? It's more central than München and has a long history of great importance and near-capital status in the Holy Roman Empire, so it seems like it would be ideal if the two kingdoms were brought closer in the future.

Unsure on what to do about Holstein. Shall I have it join Denmark? Or maybe have it drawn into the League's sphere?
Is Hannover not an alternative? Out of the two options, I'd say having it drawn into the League's sphere of influence would make the most sense. Making it a Prussian protectorate of some sort would be a good alternative as well though.

[Razgriz 2K9]

I can see the League eventually being seen as the Austria to Prussia's...Prussia. Fondly well made.

Holstein, I agree with all parties here when I say they should not go to Denmark. Instead, it should pass to either Prussia or the League, I dunno which really.

[Direwolf22]

First of all: Interesting developments, the expansion of Prussia and the League of the Rhine are fitting geopolitically speaking, Swabia was already predicted by your readership and, again, just fits. Also good forshadowing on the future Polish-Austrian War. If France intervenes in that it can be quite the bloody conflict (Austria, Prussia, the League vs. France and Poland, ouch).

Regarding Holstein... The German population will most likely see Prussia and the League as a way to remain independent, with Austria-Hungary and Hannover being an alternative. I honestly don't think that they would want to (re-)join Denmark, seeing how Denmark took a too heavy recently.

Yeah Germany is going to be ever reducing in its number of states. The Austro-Polish War (aka the Fourth Silesian War) will be a biggie.

No I think Denmark probably won't happen. i'm thinking of having it say independent, ant taking on the role of the "Switzerland of the North".

The update was well worth the wait. Fantastic work. :D

The League is shaping up nicely, and it's nice to see Prussia finally regaining her confidence and prestige. I look forward to seeing what the future has in store for Germany. (And the rest of the world, but I am personally interested in Germany the most)

I don't know what you have planned for Saxony-Bavaria, but how about Nürnberg as a future capital? It's more central than München and has a long history of great importance and near-capital status in the Holy Roman Empire, so it seems like it would be ideal if the two kingdoms were brought closer in the future.


Is Hannover not an alternative? Out of the two options, I'd say having it drawn into the League's sphere of influence would make the most sense. Making it a Prussian protectorate of some sort would be a good alternative as well though.

Thank you very much. Yeah haha it took me a while. Yeah I have noticed your German interest. Are you German by chance? Or just a massive germanophile (aren't we all?).

Nurnberg makes sense. I had planned on moving the capital to a "new" city. Better to unify the two nations. Though it will have to wait for a new king. Yup League is doing quite well for itself. It is also very friendly with the Dutch (so much trade along the Rhine). How it will stand up to France though..

I can see the League eventually being seen as the Austria to Prussia's...Prussia. Fondly well made.

Holstein, I agree with all parties here when I say they should not go to Denmark. Instead, it should pass to either Prussia or the League, I dunno which really.

The rivalry between Prussia and the League will definitely begin to heat up. They have common enemies for now (Saxony-Bavaria, Hanover, France etc.), but eventually there competing interests will collide. Not to mention there opposite societal trends. The League is one of the leading reformist states while Prussia is increasingly reactionary under Wilhelm I. Prussia is actually quite an anomaly as it is a very reactionary state (more so even than France) yet is allied with the more progressive nations. At least for now ;)

[Belle Epocque]

Will Louisiana have a Manifest Adestiny like the OTL USA?

Manifest Destiny? They will be lucky if CAS won't smashed them in coming decades. CAS with population more than milion (TTL 13 colonies should have larger population than OTL because there is no colonization of lands in the west), having many free land in the west, inhabited only by natives soon start westward expansion. How large is population of Louisiana by now? OTL state of Lousiana have only 76 thousands inhabitats by 1810. I doubt entire French Lousiana were more populs in late XVIII. By now we have more than milion CAS vs. less than 100 thousands Lousiana. Guess who win...

I give Lousiana 10-20 years. After that time they last hope will be calling French for help ;)

This entire "Lousiana Revolution" is in my opinion hardly plausible.

OTL, one of main factors of American Revolution was end of New France after 7 years war. There were no longer French threat, which unify colonies with crown.

TTL New France is in similar situation. They facing with threat of settlers expansion from 13 colonies, so rebelling against Paris and staying alone as a result is bad idea. Besides, maybe I miss something but capture of New Orleans during revolution should not be so hard thing for France?

However, many strange thing occur OTL. But the point is, Republic of Louisiana will be rather short lived.

BTW, nice Time Line. :)

[RandomWriterGuy]

Ya you're back! While you were out I posted a series of questions for ya.

[Direwolf22]

Manifest Destiny? They will be lucky if CAS won't smashed them in coming decades. CAS with population more than milion (TTL 13 colonies should have larger population than OTL because there is no colonization of lands in the west), having many free land in the west, inhabited only by natives soon start westward expansion. How large is population of Louisiana by now? OTL state of Lousiana have only 76 thousands inhabitats by 1810. I doubt entire French Lousiana were more populs in late XVIII. By now we have more than milion CAS vs. less than 100 thousands Lousiana. Guess who win...

I give Lousiana 10-20 years. After that time they last hope will be calling French for help ;)

This entire "Lousiana Revolution" is in my opinion hardly plausible.

OTL, one of main factors of American Revolution was end of New France after 7 years war. There were no longer French threat, which unify colonies with crown.

TTL New France is in similar situation. They facing with threat of settlers expansion from 13 colonies, so rebelling against Paris and staying alone as a result is bad idea. Besides, maybe I miss something but capture of New Orleans during revolution should not be so hard thing for France?

However, many strange thing occur OTL. But the point is, Republic of Louisiana will be rather short lived.

BTW, nice Time Line. :)

No there will be no Louisianan "Manifest" identity. Louisiana, as you said, lacks the population required for that. Indeed they will be primarily focused on holding what they have, especially in the north.

However you are wrong to assume that the CAS can easily overwhelm then. For a number of reasons:

1. Alliances. Louisiana is a friend to both London and Boston as well as cordial with the UPA. The CAS only has France, and even then they're far from close friends.
2. Slavery. The CAS does have a larger population than Louisiana but a large portion of that is slaves. This will a) Suck their manpower and B) mean they must maintain a large garrison at home to keep down a possible slave uprising. (Like ancient Sparta).
3. Population. It is important to note, and this is key, that net migration to North America from Europe is going to be substantially less than in OTL. Probably around 55-65% of OTL levels. Why? Because there is no great republic across the sea, only a collection of bickering war prone states; very like Europe. Louisiana has actually been far more attractive to Europeans (free republic, reformist, large land to settle) than the CAS (smaller, slave owning, diplomatically isolated, elitist, reactionary). I will go into more details on populations in the next update but roughly the CAS population in 1830 around 2.2 million. Louisiana in contrast is around 450-600,000 (If one looks at the OTL state populations in 1830 for this region the total is greater). So the CAS outnumbers Louisiana about 5 to 1. But with the slave factor, and the need to keep troops to counter actions from New England and/or Britain, this advantage is probably reduced to say 3 or even 2 to 1. An advantage to be sure but not an overwhelming one.

As for the Louisianan Revolution, history is sometimes hard to believe and wouldn't be in some cases had it not actually happened. British colonies were a threat to Louisiana but not in the same way as French Canada was for the Americans in OTL (No encirclement, no history of direct conflict and large space in between). France could have crushed Louisiana easily if it wasn't for the intervention of Britain and the then Dominions as well as the higher priority of the war in Europe.

Ya you're back! While you were out I posted a series of questions for ya.

Haha yup. Saw them, I'll try and reply as soon as possible. And some I may answer in the next update. But you should know its not my writing style to reveal too much of what I have planned.

[Vitruvius]

Back again, I'm glad you're still working on it. So without the old institutions of the HRE, namely and Emperor, all the little states and, secular and ecclesiastic alike, start getting gobbled up by their larger neighbors. In the case of Prussia did they just essentially 'mediatize' those conquered territories or where the ruling dynasts expelled as well. In other words is this consolidation like OTL Germany where the mediatized nobility retained their lands, estates and some degree of power but lost their sovereignty to a larger power? Or was it like OTL Italy where the ruling houses of defeated rival Kingdoms were sent into exile?

The Austro-Polish War sounds rather ominous. I'm kind of rooting for this new reformist Austria. I appreciate that you briefly touched on the internal politics of each state. Saxony-Bavaria seems like it will be in need of a strong and charismatic leader in the next generation to see it through and really forge a single state.

[kasumigenx]

Yeah Germany is going to be ever reducing in its number of states. The Austro-Polish War (aka the Fourth Silesian War) will be a biggie.

No I think Denmark probably won't happen. i'm thinking of having it say independent, ant taking on the role of the "Switzerland of the North".



Thank you very much. Yeah haha it took me a while. Yeah I have noticed your German interest. Are you German by chance? Or just a massive germanophile (aren't we all?).

Nurnberg makes sense. I had planned on moving the capital to a "new" city. Better to unify the two nations. Though it will have to wait for a new king. Yup League is doing quite well for itself. It is also very friendly with the Dutch (so much trade along the Rhine). How it will stand up to France though..



The rivalry between Prussia and the League will definitely begin to heat up. They have common enemies for now (Saxony-Bavaria, Hanover, France etc.), but eventually there competing interests will collide. Not to mention there opposite societal trends. The League is one of the leading reformist states while Prussia is increasingly reactionary under Wilhelm I. Prussia is actually quite an anomaly as it is a very reactionary state (more so even than France) yet is allied with the more progressive nations. At least for now ;)
Poland will just at least regain the Polish Speaking parts of Silesia which were Upper Silesia and Lower Silesia north of Oder after the war or Poland might lose Krakovia and Posen or at least some parts of Greater Poland and Lesser Poland as well if they lose, The Jagellonians only made lipservice to the Poles in Silesia they never made any attempts to reunite Silesia back to the Corona, I think Silesia was the propaganda land of the Habsburgs for Poles to elect them in the Commonwealth but the Poles including the Poles in Silesia know how Habsburgs are intolerant and the Poles in Silesia sympathized with the Vasa and Sobieskis in fact the Sobieskis asked Austria to reunite Silesia with Poland but it means that Habsburgs will lose their connections in Poland as well in the end when the Sobieskis lost Austria granted the Sobieskis the Duchy of Olawa, I also think the next Silesian wars will be Ottomans, Poland and France vs Austria, Prussia and the league.

[Gorm the Old]

Finally got around to reading this, interesting though some parts seem a bit implausible. Still, things are settling down and being shook up again, so it's not a big deal.

I do have to question why Denmark is joining Sweden in this war, that's very out of character. After England and France, Denmark and Sweden are certainly in the running for most wars fought between two nations. It's really only after Denmark lost Norway that we started patching up our relations. Denmark staying out or courting the Prussians would probably make more sense, perhaps trying to create a three-way alliance between Denmark, Prussia and Russia against Sweden. Though putting Prussia and Russia together would bring them into conflict with Austria potentially.

Alternatively, have it be a real diplomatic revolution and have Denmark and Sweden form a proper dynastic alliance. Denmark choosing the middle ground where it loses land to the Germans without at least securing its back is kind of silly.*

*Admittedly it would not be unheard of for the Danish kings to do something stupid, but in this case the stupid also goes against tradition.

Is Hannover not an alternative? Out of the two options, I'd say having it drawn into the League's sphere of influence would make the most sense. Making it a Prussian protectorate of some sort would be a good alternative as well though.
Both Hannover and Prussia are reactionary/conservative right? The nobility of Holstein was pretty damn opposed to anything that changed the status quo, so they would probably prefer which ever state wouldn't mess around too much with their internal politics.

The idea of a "Switzerland of the North" makes sense as well, if the surrounding powers agree to keep it as a kind of de-militarized buffer zone. I'm sure the nobility of Holstein would love that, though they would probably want Schleswig to be joined to them as well. If everyone around them tells them "Nope, ain't gonna happen." then they'll probably drop the issue though. Perhaps a more apt comparison would be Luxembourg though, since I doubt Holstein would be very similar to Switzerland in regards to internal politics. It's certainly far harder to defend!

[Bavarian Raven]

Nice TL - i just read through it. keep it coming. :)

[Direwolf22]

Back again, I'm glad you're still working on it. So without the old institutions of the HRE, namely and Emperor, all the little states and, secular and ecclesiastic alike, start getting gobbled up by their larger neighbors. In the case of Prussia did they just essentially 'mediatize' those conquered territories or where the ruling dynasts expelled as well. In other words is this consolidation like OTL Germany where the mediatized nobility retained their lands, estates and some degree of power but lost their sovereignty to a larger power? Or was it like OTL Italy where the ruling houses of defeated rival Kingdoms were sent into exile?

The Austro-Polish War sounds rather ominous. I'm kind of rooting for this new reformist Austria. I appreciate that you briefly touched on the internal politics of each state. Saxony-Bavaria seems like it will be in need of a strong and charismatic leader in the next generation to see it through and really forge a single state.

Good to see you again. Well it depends. The Saxobavarian conquest of Gotha was more Italian style. All the lands and estates were seized and given to Saxon or Bavarian nobility. Similar thing happened in Pomerania, the Swedish lands being parceled out amongst the Prussian aristocracy. Mecklenburg however, being a German run state, was allowed to maintain much of its old class / style, sort of along OTL German lines. In the League of course nations keep all their old styles when joining (Trier) or get to form their own ruling elite (Oldenburg).

Austria has the advantage this is clear, but can this new Poland get its first major victory?

Poland will just at least regain the Polish Speaking parts of Silesia which were Upper Silesia and Lower Silesia north of Oder after the war or Poland might lose Krakovia and Posen or at least some parts of Greater Poland and Lesser Poland as well if they lose, The Jagellonians only made lipservice to the Poles in Silesia they never made any attempts to reunite Silesia back to the Corona, I think Silesia was the propaganda land of the Habsburgs for Poles to elect them in the Commonwealth but the Poles including the Poles in Silesia know how Habsburgs are intolerant and the Poles in Silesia sympathized with the Vasa and Sobieskis in fact the Sobieskis asked Austria to reunite Silesia with Poland but it means that Habsburgs will lose their connections in Poland as well in the end when the Sobieskis lost Austria granted the Sobieskis the Duchy of Olawa, I also think the next Silesian wars will be Ottomans, Poland and France vs Austria, Prussia and the league.

There is definitely strong sympathy for the Poles in Silesia. But there is also a sizable German population there, loyal to Vienna mostly (though a few still look to Berlin). The Turks are friendly with Vienna for the moment and have other concerns, mainly in Egypt so they won't be involved, at least directly, in the Silesian War.

Finally got around to reading this, interesting though some parts seem a bit implausible. Still, things are settling down and being shook up again, so it's not a big deal.

I do have to question why Denmark is joining Sweden in this war, that's very out of character. After England and France, Denmark and Sweden are certainly in the running for most wars fought between two nations. It's really only after Denmark lost Norway that we started patching up our relations. Denmark staying out or courting the Prussians would probably make more sense, perhaps trying to create a three-way alliance between Denmark, Prussia and Russia against Sweden. Though putting Prussia and Russia together would bring them into conflict with Austria potentially.

Alternatively, have it be a real diplomatic revolution and have Denmark and Sweden form a proper dynastic alliance. Denmark choosing the middle ground where it loses land to the Germans without at least securing its back is kind of silly.*

*Admittedly it would not be unheard of for the Danish kings to do something stupid, but in this case the stupid also goes against tradition.


Both Hannover and Prussia are reactionary/conservative right? The nobility of Holstein was pretty damn opposed to anything that changed the status quo, so they would probably prefer which ever state wouldn't mess around too much with their internal politics.

The idea of a "Switzerland of the North" makes sense as well, if the surrounding powers agree to keep it as a kind of de-militarized buffer zone. I'm sure the nobility of Holstein would love that, though they would probably want Schleswig to be joined to them as well. If everyone around them tells them "Nope, ain't gonna happen." then they'll probably drop the issue though. Perhaps a more apt comparison would be Luxembourg though, since I doubt Holstein would be very similar to Switzerland in regards to internal politics. It's certainly far harder to defend!

Well lets say that the decision to support Sweden wasn't universally applauded in Denmark. The reason being though is fear of the expanding, and clearly expansionist, Prussia. It was viewed that Berlin, and Dortmund, could be a greater threat in the future. Obviously many now regret the intervention and the loss of Oldenburg. Now though they may well reverse this track and side with the Germans and hope to regain some lost prestige against their old Scandinavian rival. And well it wouldn't be a real alternate timeline without at least the possibility of a united Scandinavia would it?

The "Northern Luxembourg" doesn't really have the same ring to it. But to be sure Holstein is not going to join Hanover. Most likely it will join the League, seeing how it will let them maintain most of their own institutions.

Nice TL - i just read through it. keep it coming. :)

Thank you always good to hear from new people. I intend to, already well underway on the next update.

[Gorm the Old]

Well lets say that the decision to support Sweden wasn't universally applauded in Denmark. The reason being though is fear of the expanding, and clearly expansionist, Prussia. It was viewed that Berlin, and Dortmund, could be a greater threat in the future.
Obviously many now regret the intervention and the loss of Oldenburg. Now though they may well reverse this track and side with the Germans and hope to regain some lost prestige against their old Scandinavian rival.
No matter what, the Danes aren't really in the best position. Their best bet is really the Russians getting involved and stopping German adventurism past Holstein, which they might just do. The Danes have been loyal allies of the Russians for years, so the Russians would probably prefer to keep the status quo.

Though of course the Danes could also reach out to the Saxobavarians, where I believe they might have (had) some relatives. Neither party really wants the Prussians growing too strong, so an alliance makes sense.

And well it wouldn't be a real alternate timeline without at least the possibility of a united Scandinavia would it?
:)

As an aside, this talk of Oldenburg just reminded me of something: In OTL 1773, it was given in exchange for Tsar Paul dropping his claims in Holstein and Schleswig. I wonder if he might have an opinion on what's happening in the area?


The "Northern Luxembourg" doesn't really have the same ring to it.
That I'll admit, but it's probably still the better comparison.


But to be sure Holstein is not going to join Hanover. Most likely it will join the League, seeing how it will let them maintain most of their own institutions.

Alternatively, have Paul press his own claims on the place. With the Russians so far away, the nobility in Holstein could probably run things like they used to do. Perhaps he could build up Kiel as a naval base?

Hah, now I'm imagining Holstein becoming a German-Russian mini-state, with most of the Russian population being (former) sailors living in Kiel. Would be a fun reversal of the usual story of German cities all over the place.

[Direwolf22]

Little bump to say the North America update will be posted tomorrow.

[Direwolf22]

Blood and Earth
North America: (1800-1820)


The Louisianan Republic was the child of the Age of Revolution. In fact its Declaration of Independence triggered the outbreak of revolts and revolutions that broke out across the Americas and Europe. The revolutionary tradition inspired by this birth in fire would stick with Louisiana and its people. Louisiana in the early 1800s was a nation getting to its feet. It had to organise and establish a government, encourage immigration from abroad and set about unifying its large but relatively sparsely populated lands. The Republic's first national elections had finally taken place in 1798 (two years later than planned). The election had been a success, despite the voting/counting process taking around 3 months to complete; primarily due to the sheer size of the nation as well as the people's lack of experience with a representative government and system. This first government was primarily focused on the war effort against France as well as dealing with the issue of forming a nation. The First Consul during this time was Philippe Bardet a charismatic and determined leader who is still regarded as a hero and indeed earned the monicker the “Father of the Republic”. Bardet's term as First Consul ended in 1803 (despite only supposed to serve 5 years his term was considered to have started only in 1798). He was succeeded by French emigree Adrien Duport who too had been an influential figure in the early years. Duport's Consulship was devoted to two main goals: improving and establishing the nation's judicial system and foreign negotiation (primarily with trying to prevent war with the CAS and maintaining strong ties with London and New York). The elections for the National Assembly took place in 1804 (the Consul had a separate 5 year term compared to the Assembly's six-year, at this time). This election signalled the rise of the first Louisianan political parties, although they were more like camps than orgainsed political machines at this point. On one side were the Radicals (this group was dominated by French exiles who tended to have more extreme, and militaristic, views) and the Modérés (Moderates) who were more focused on internal improvements and an isolationist foreign policy. Consul Duport distanced himself from the parties and set about portraying himself as the leader of all Louisianans. This tradtion of the aloofness of the First Consul and distance from party politics was to become as strong as law in the next few years. The Assembly of 1804-1810 was controlled by the Moderates.


Duport was succeeded as First Consul by Lucien Thomas. Thomas had been born in Louisiana, but before the Revolution. Thomas had been mayor of St. Louis which he had helped trasnform into the nation's second largest city, indeed it was one of the only major cities in the country north of the Cœur (heart) River (OTL Arkansas River). Consequently First Consul Thomas had a strong following in the north of the nation that had helped win him the election. Thomas consularship and that of the 1810-1816 Assembly, still run by the Moderates but with a notbaly reduced majority, was on institutional reform. The new structure of the nation was esbalished in the Republic Act of 1812. There were now 41 départements in the Republic, each would elected an Assembly representative at the next election, up from 36. The Assembly elections would also now be split with the six year terms becoming overlapping. Half of the current members would be up for re-election in 1816 while the rest would serve on until 1819, thereby allowing more frequent elections in government and breaking political monopolies on power. In early 1815 however an incident occuerd that would have great remifications for Louisiana. Over the past few years a small movement had grown in the eastern part of the nation. These “Friends of Liberty” were a band of settlers, veterans and foragers who had made it their goal to help Confederate slaves escape to Louisiana and freedom. Many in New Orleans had known about this movement but had thought little of it. Until that is in February of 1815 when the 'Friends' had pulled off, or thought they had, a major operation, assisting over three dozen slaves escape over the border. However, they were pursued by the slaves' owner and a band of Confederate cavalry. The pursuit took them over the border where they encounterd a Louisianan military patrol and the 'Friends' a few miles outside the town of Calais. The slave owner demanded the return of his slaves. None of the Louisianan soldiers however spoke English so it was up to one of the Friends to translate. What the translator reported however is believed to be a far less diplomatic statement than what was actually orginally stated. The outraged officer in turn demanded that the Confederates withdraw from soverign Louisianan territory. In the confusion one of the slave children got away from his mother and tried to run for a nearby forest. He was immediately shot by the slave owner. As one might expect things immediately escalated. When the smoke cleared the Confederates were in retreat but five slaves, three 'Friends', a half dozen Louisianan soldiers as well as nearly twenty Confederates (including the slave owener) lay dead.


It turned out that the dead slave owner had been a wealthy and well-respected man named James Page. Who, to make things worse, turned out to be a close friend of Confederate President James Monroe. The Confederate government was organised along lines maximising the individual rights and powers of the nation's five 'states': Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Florida (which was officialy made a state in 1811). Each state had its own government as well as their being a national Senate in Charleston. The President was elected to a renewable four year term. President Monroe upon finding out about his dear friend's death sent an ultimatum to New Orleans. He demanded those responsible be turned over to the CAS, a hefty financial payment as way of an apology and a guarantee that Louisiana would cease all aid to slaves in the Confederacy. New First Consul Henry Lambert (a walthy New Orleans businessman who made his fortune in overseas trade) was more inclined that most to accept, or at last negotiate on these terms. However the Radicals in the Assembly, along with a few more offended Moderates managed to gather a majority vote in the Assembly (25-16) to refuse the demands. In addition the Assembly (which of course had more power than the Consul) sent its own reply demanding that Monroe apologise for the transgression of the Confederate troops into Louisianan territory and the murder of its soldiers and citizens. Press in both nations got wind of the dispute and public anger was stoked to boiling point. On May 9th 1815 President Monroe sent a final note demanding the above terms or he would ask the Confederate Senate to approve a declaration of war. On May 30th the Louisianan National Assembly declared war on the Confederacy of American States.


The Louisianans were able to act first in the war. Their revolutionary spirit allowed a quick mobilization. An army of 20,000 Louisianan troops invaded the Confederate state of Georgia. The Confederate forces in this area were initially pushed back. The Battle of Columbus, in central Georgia, on September 9th was a victory for the Louisianans who now, under the talented General Lucien, made for Atlanta. Unfortunately a new Confederate army, the Army of Northern Virginia, arrived before the Louisianans reached the Georgian capital. The subsequent Battle of Atlanta (October 20th-22nd) saw the Louisianans defeated and scattered. The Confederates launched a counter-offensive and by 1816 had retaken almost all of their lost lands. It was now though that the planned advance to the Mississippi had to be delayed. The Louisianans in their advance/retreat had freed thousands of slaves, and armed them. Louisiana had been importing thousands of British arms and munitions (London had no intention of getting involved in this war but still wished to assist their ally in New Orleans), a large amount of which they had used to arms freedmen who now executed a bloody guerilla war against the Confederates in the area. A new Louisianan host, around 28,000 men, was assembling to relaunch the offensive. General Luicen was expected to take command, however he was overlooked in favour of Jean Bourdillon, an Assembly representative who fancied himself a general. This political appointment, achieved by bribes, enraged elements of the military, Lucien himself was put in charge of the 2,000 strong force guarding the border with the UPA. Bourdillon's army moved east in early 1816. The Confederates withdrew and regrouped near Rome, Georgia; the guerilla war had bled them dry but the insurgency was effectively crushed, those remaining had fled west. The Battle of Rome was a disaster for the Louisianans, the arrogant Bourdillon had been outmanoeuvred by the Confederate General Andrew Jackson. The defeat was the end of Louisianan advances in the war. Critically the Battle of Rome ended any possibility of New England intervention. The New Englanders had been sympathetic to the Louisianan effort but the defeat at Rome caused the pro-war faction in the north to lose influence.

Louisianan soldiers battle Confederate cavalry at the Battle of Columbus (1815):
http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/the_exploit_of_the_mounted_regiment_in_the_battle_ of_austerlitz.jpg?w=400&h=282

The rest of 1816 saw a gradual collapse of Louisianan resistance east of the Mississippi. Freed slaves (and unfreed) fled west in the wake of the vengeful Confederates, an exodus fled to the safety of Louisiana. Fittingly enough the last major confrontation of the war took place in November of 1816 near the town of Calais. The Battle of Calais saw Jackson finish the last opposing army on this side of the Mississippi. The Louisianans (led by another political appointment) were divided before the battle, and around a third of the army deserted rather than serve under another political buffoon. In February 1817 a peace treaty was signed in Havana ending the First Louisianan-Confederate War. In the terms of the treaty all Louisianan territory east of the Mississippi and south of the Ohio rifer was ceded to the Confederacy, New Orleans would outlaw the 'Friends of Liberty' and promise to no longer assist slave uprisings in the CAS and finally Louisiana would pay a hefty sum to Charleston. In addition the 'Friends' responsible for the Calais incident were turned over to the CAS where they were imprisoned. The outcome of this war and the Treaty of Havana were important in their own right, the success of the CAS, the shift in the power balance and the lack of New England support to Louisiana; however the most dramatic legacy of the war would be its role as trigger for arguably the greatest political rise in the history of the Americas.


The Dominion of New England in the first two decades of the 19th Century was a place of great change and innovation. Emerging from the Revolutionary Wars, not only victorious against the French and Confederates, but having gained the Ohio Valley and Maryland, left New England in a politically secure and powerful position. The Dominion parliament at New York gradually grew in confidence and authority throughout this period. Elections to the parliament were held every five years starting in 1776. By the1800s two main political parties had come to the forefront, the Federalists and the Whigs. The Whigs tended to be in favour of greater power to the constituent provinces, an isolationist foreign policy (with the exception of the continued relationship with Britain), and backed and were backed by the more agrarian and interior provinces, such as Pennsylvania and Ohio. The Federalists on the other hand argued for stronger central government, a more adventurous foreign agenda, support for the New Orleans regime, and were big proponents of a stronger navy to protect the Dominion's maritime commercial interests; consequently they had strong support in Massachusetts and other north-eastern provinces. Starting in the 1801 election the Federalists were the ruling party. Consequently the nature of the Dominion changed dramatically with two important pieces of legislation: the Constitutional Act (1805) and the Navy Act (1808). The Constitutional Act was a major piece of Federalist vision. The provincial parliaments lost power and the federal parliament was strengthened. Also this act moved the seat of the Dominion parliament to Boston. This was to appease the smaller states, who following the granting of provincial status to Ohio (1801) and Michigan (1804) feared they were being ignored in favour of the western larger states. Therefore moving the capital out of New York (the most populous province) to the smaller Massachusetts was seen as a way of alleviating their concerns. The Constitutional Act also created the post of First Minister. The Dominion had always been represented by the leader of the largest political party in parliament, but it was only in 1805 that an official position was created with specific powers. The Dominion's first First Minister was a Federalist New York representative Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton was a strong believer in a more ambitious New England aiming to make the Dominion the dominant power in North America. He too was committed to maintaining the relationship with Britain and had no desire to make New England a fully sovereign nation (a political belief that was gradually gaining ground in this period). Indeed Hamilton, who served as First Minister from 1805 to 1816, became a great friend and correspondent with two British Prime Ministers in his time in office (William Pitt the Younger and the Earl of Liverpool). Hamilton also entertained King George IV at his house in New York when the King made his historic visit to the Dominion in 1812. The Navy Act (1808) on the other hand made the creation, expansion and maintenance of a New England Navy the paramount concern of the period. The Dominion's first home built first rate ship of the line, HMDS (His Majesty's Dominion's Ship) Emergence, was launched in 1810 bearing 100 guns. By 1820 New England possessed by far the most powerful navy in the Americas, it even surpassed the Royal Navy as Westminster was happy to hand much of the responsibility in this area to Boston to concentrate elsewhere. It is also during this period that New England fought the Barbary War (1807-1810), which in itself motivated the passing of the Navy Act. Pirates from North Africa had been increasingly striking at the Dominion's shipping (vital to its economic rise) and eventually the Boston government had enough. A series of punitive expeditions was sent and resulted in the effective dismantling of the Barbary pirates. Britain sent a small force to assist and diplomatically backed the Dominion, but it was New England that did the lion's share. The success in the Barbary War was New England's first independent military campaign. This success saw a redefining of the relationship between Dominion and master as for the first time politicians in Westminster began to see New England as a credible military and political ally and partner rather than colony.

New England First Minister Alexander Hamilton:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Alexander_Hamilton_portrait_by_John_Trumbull_1806. jpg/220px-Alexander_Hamilton_portrait_by_John_Trumbull_1806. jpg

Elsewhere in North America this period saw an increse in immigration from Europe and the construction of new towns and developing economies. French Canada continued to grow and became a wealthy offspring of France. The population continued to remain loyal to the King back in France, but by 1820 a majority of the populace was now determined that they should have more autonomy and decision making powers, they only had to look over the border to the south to see the thriving British Dominion and the independent states further south. By 1820 French Canada had a population of near 800,000 with Quebec being one of the continent's major cities. British lands further north and west however remained more scarcely populated. It stil attracted settlers however and the lands of the Hudson Bay Company continued to push west into the American interior. Newcastle was founded in the west and would develop into a major transport and commerical hub in this region. Two decades into the new century though the population of the colony was still less than a quarter of a million. The Native Protectorate was a curious case in this time. No central government existed and was in fact a series of tribal lands grouped together for convenience sake. The tribes skirmished with each other more often than not, as well as with Louisianan settlers to the south. Eventually though the Protectorate began to come together and the Shawnee tribe began to emerge as the dominant political force in the Protectorate and would steer it through the tumultuous events of the 1820s and 30s.

[Direwolf22]

Snazy wikibox

[RandomWriterGuy]

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!!!!!!!

BTW, now can u answer my questions?

[Direwolf22]

But there is still and for France in Canada to claim. Why can't they look towards that?

The "foolish fatherland" scenario will happen to the Latin American states, right?

Will the Spanish Republic hold on to Peru forever? And if not, what will happen to it?

Will Brazil gain independence?

Will France conquer most of North Africa as it did in OTL?

Will Britain also claim South Africa?

Will India be owned by one of the two conquerors if a major war over it has occurred?

Will there be a developed code similar to the Napoleonic Code?

Will there be any movement for a unified Germany or Italy?

Will Switzerland still be recognized as a neutral state?

I will answer some of these, but not all as I don't like to give things away.

France could still make an effort to gain Western Canada, but why? It would be a lot of effort for not much gain, and it would only give them some colonies very vulnerable to other nations. Whereas expansion in Africa, India and Asia is much easier, and, more profitable, at least in the short term.

'Foolish Fatherland' will affect some American nations as it did in OTL. This is almost inevitable. But some will manage to whether the storm.

Peru will gain increasing powers of self-governance over the next decades.

France will carve out most of North Africa as OTL, while Britain will of course be eying South Africa hungrily.

No Napoleonic Code, though the Rhineland will develop something along those lines. As for German and Italian unification the lack of militant nationalism will delay massively, if not prevent entirely, the movements for unification.

[SavoyTruffle]

Balkanized belligerent North America? Me gusta.

[Direwolf22]

Balkanized belligerent North America? Me gusta.

Oh its just so much more fun

[Direwolf22]

Another wikibox for Alexander Hamilton:

[Direwolf22]

Jérôme squinted his eyes in attempt to peer through the smoke. Battle's were, as far as Jérôme could tell, all smoke and fire and noise. In the distant he could see the shape of hills and men and cannon dotting the ridge. Flashes of fire occasional burst into lie along that ridge as Confederate artillery spewed death and destruction. Somewhere beyond those hills Jérôme knew lay Atlanta. Atlanta. That was always the goal, 'if we can just take Atlanta the war would be as good as won'. Jérôme scoffed, no bloody chance of that now.

Around him his own brigade of cannon blasted away at a Confederate infantry regiment down in the valley. Twenty-five artillery pieces under Jérôme's personal command. All British built, Jérôme mused, like most of the army's equipment, at some point this country needs to start making its own damn weapons. His brigade was the finest artillery brigade in the army, he truly believed that. Wouldn't do much good now true or not though he thought. The battle was clearly going poorly. The Confederates kept coming and the Louisianan centre looked about to break. In the distance he could see white-coated horseman charging into the army's left flank, through his looking glass Jérôme thought he recognised the cavalry's banner, Virginians it seemed.

The Louisianan left began to collapse. Jérôme ordered his artillery to begin pounding the Confederate centre to buy his countrymen time to retreat. He was aware that the rest of the cannon division had done the same. Commander Sout was not a bad man. Old, he had fought in the Revolution, but he knew what was right and tended to follow Jérôme's lead rather than the other way around as rank dictated. It was no use though the battle was over. The call to retreat came down the lines and Jérôme's brigade began to withdraw, bringing up the horses to mount the guns. He'd be damned if he let those Confederate bastards have his cannon.

It shouldn't have come to this he thought bitterly as his men began to join the withdrawal streaming south and west. The government should have sent more men, more guns, more supplies, more everything. Those fools in the capital did not know how to fight a war. His father did. His father had served in the Sardinian army years before; he'd even met the Sardinian king! He could still remember seeing his father fuming as he came down the stairs outside the Assembly building a few months before. He'd tried to argue that the government needed to raise more men for the campaign, but they hadn't listened. It's because he's an Italian. If he'd been French born they might have listened. His father had tried so hard to integrate himself in the elite, even changing his name, but to no avail. No Jérôme thought it shouldn't have come to this. Something needed to be done about those corrupt fools in New Orleans. Watching the army trudge away, the sounds of battle still booming behind as the rearguard fought to give time to the retreat, Jérôme felt anger flood his face. Something needed to be done indeed. But what could he do, a mere artillery captain? Well no matter his station Jérôme Bonaparte would do whatever it took to save his country.

[Direwolf22]

More in detail map of Louisiana

http://imageshack.us/a/img62/2319/louisianaii1820.png

[mrhistory]

I appreciate the great detail that you provide in your story, especially the frequent maps!!

[slydessertfox]

Jérôme squinted his eyes in attempt to peer through the smoke. Battle's were, as far as Jérôme could tell, all smoke and fire and noise. In the distant he could see the shape of hills and men and cannon dotting the ridge. Flashes of fire occasional burst into lie along that ridge as Confederate artillery spewed death and destruction. Somewhere beyond those hills Jérôme knew lay Atlanta. Atlanta. That was always the goal, 'if we can just take Atlanta the war would be as good as won'. Jérôme scoffed, no bloody chance of that now.

Around him his own brigade of cannon blasted away at a Confederate infantry regiment down in the valley. Twenty-five artillery pieces under Jérôme's personal command. All British built, Jérôme mused, like most of the army's equipment, at some point this country needs to start making its own damn weapons. His brigade was the finest artillery brigade in the army, he truly believed that. Wouldn't do much good now true or not though he thought. The battle was clearly going poorly. The Confederates kept coming and the Louisianan centre looked about to break. In the distance he could see white-coated horseman charging into the army's left flank, through his looking glass Jérôme thought he recognised the cavalry's banner, Virginians it seemed.

The Louisianan left began to collapse. Jérôme ordered his artillery to begin pounding the Confederate centre to buy his countrymen time to retreat. He was aware that the rest of the cannon division had done the same. Commander Sout was not a bad man. Old, he had fought in the Revolution, but he knew what was right and tended to follow Jérôme's lead rather than the other way around as rank dictated. It was no use though the battle was over. The call to retreat came down the lines and Jérôme's brigade began to withdraw, bringing up the horses to mount the guns. He'd be damned if he let those Confederate bastards have his cannon.

It shouldn't have come to this he thought bitterly as his men began to join the withdrawal streaming south and west. The government should have sent more men, more guns, more supplies, more everything. Those fools in the capital did not know how to fight a war. His father did. His father had served in the Sardinian army years before; he'd even met the Sardinian king! He could still remember seeing his father fuming as he came down the stairs outside the Assembly building a few months before. He'd tried to argue that the government needed to raise more men for the campaign, but they hadn't listened. It's because he's an Italian. If he'd been French born they might have listened. His father had tried so hard to integrate himself in the elite, even changing his name, but to no avail. No Jérôme thought it shouldn't have come to this. Something needed to be done about those corrupt fools in New Orleans. Watching the army trudge away, the sounds of battle still booming behind as the rearguard fought to give time to the retreat, Jérôme felt anger flood his face. Something needed to be done indeed. But what could he do, a mere artillery captain? Well no matter his station Jérôme Bonaparte would do whatever it took to save his country.

So Napoleon immigrated to Louisiana eh?

[Direwolf22]

I appreciate the great detail that you provide in your story, especially the frequent maps!!

Thanks! It means the story progression might be slight slow but I feel it gives more depth to the story.

So Napoleon immigrated to Louisiana eh?

Yup, and he had a son

[Direwolf22]

Good, Jérôme thought as he closed the door behind him and stepped out into the street. He had hoped, and indeed believed, that the other officers were still on board but it was nice to have it assured. Roux and Baudin were both near fanatical in their dedication to the cause. General Lucien was a pleasant addition. Though, Jérôme thought, his appearance is understandable given how the fools in the Assembly treated the man. Plus the name Lucien still commanded respect amongst parts of the army. But with himself, Baudin and Captain Giroux they had the loyalty of all the troops within and around the capital. No, he thought, that meeting was just to confirm what he hoped he already knew, it was the next talk that really mattered.

He turned left on Liberty Avenue. Out of the corner of his eye he could see the distant dome of the Assembly rising above the skyline. He suppressed the momentary pang of bitterness. The streets were almost deserted, not surprising for a wet night this time of night. A man came staggering out of an inn down the road, he gave Jérôme a challenging look but backed down when Jérôme pulled back his coat showing the pistol hanging at his waste. From the man's tattered uniform he was a soldier, one of the local garrison who slipped away for a night in the city. Hopefully he's not one of my men. The man jerked back and stumbled off to the west. One of Baudin's then probably. The men all around the city were growing restless and bored. A dangerous combination in soldiers. The Assembly had yet to begin sending the soldiers home, maybe it feared a new Confederate attack? Regardless the capital was ringed by around 11,000 men, which, hopefully, Jérôme could now count on as being loyal to his little plot.

He turned right, then left, then right again heading towards his destination. The small house lay on the far eastern side of the city. It was owned by Jean Leon, an old friend of his father's. When Jérôme entered Jean gave a small movement of his head towards his study at the back but didn't get up from his reading by the fire. Jérôme murmerred a thanks and headed to the back room. The young man in there turned from the window to look at him. Roughly the same age and height as Jérôme this was the man that Jérôme needed to win over. His support would be vital when the time came. As a member of the Assembly he had influence in the government amongst the reformers. But it was this man's name that Jérôme needed. This man was Henri Bardet.

[Direwolf22]

The Fall of the Republic
Louisiana: (1819-1823)


List of First Consuls of the First Louisianan Republic:
Philippe Bardet (1798-1803)
Adrien Duport (1803-1808)
Lucien Thomas (1808-1813)
Henry Lambert (1813-1817)*
Jean Dubois (1817-1818)
Louis Fontaine (1818-1819)**

*Resigned following the defeat in the war of 1815-7.
** Ousted by political coup.


In July 1819 a band of ambitious officers and politicians staged what amounted to a military coup in New Orleans, toppling the elected government. The causes of the coup are to be found in the Louisianan defeat to the CAS in the war of 1815-1817. Dissatisfaction with poor and divided political leadership from the capital during the war became overwhelmingly prevalent in the army in the aftermath of the war. In fact in some parts of the military it was the government that was outright blamed for the defeat. This belief rang true for some politicians as well, who also had the added belief that the ruling elite had moved too far from the ideas of the revolution and instead taken on the role of the new aristocracy. Members of the Radical political party were especially prone to take the latter belief. The election of Louis Fontaine as First Consul in 1818 is seen as the tipping point. Fontaine, a political big-wig, was widely regarded as a corrupt and selfish individual. Indeed there is great evidence that he bought the Consular election by paying civil servants to fudge the election results. Fontaine's consulship, along with another Moderate assembly, saw an immediate passing of measures increasing pay for the elite politicians, a rapidly expanding spoils system and the side lining of more reformist and progressive officials and activists. In June 1819 Fontaine, already far too involved in the Assembly's decision making progress for many on the outside, and his cronies announced they were planning to pass a bill making it possible for the First Consul to serve multiple terms as well as requiring the sitting Consul to receive only 40% of the vote to stay in office. This wouldn't stand.

Led by three men, (the respected General Lucien, the politician and son of the nation's first consul Henri Bardet and a young and soon to be famous ambitious officer, Jérôme Bonaparte) 3,000 soldiers from the outlying garrisons stormed the city and seized the Assembly building. Fontaine and his supporters were arrested. A new regime was formed. Lucien, Bardet and Bonaparte were each made a 'Consul' and a new Assembly was formed with Radicals and reformers replacing all those previously loyal to Fontaine. Elections were scheduled for this new Assembly in 1820. However after the news of the coup reached the northern part of the country a counter-revolution broke out around the city of Turin, led by some friends of the former First Consul. General, now Consul, Lucien was appointed by the new government to take an army north to crush the rising before it could move south, he agreed. Then in a critical decision Consul Bardet decided to go north with Lucien to try and lend the weight of his name to a possible peaceful diplomatic solution. Leaving Bonaparte in effective sole command of the capital, and therefore the country. Consumed by ambition and a desire to regain lost territory Bonaparte and his more radical supporters convinced the Assembly to pass a declaration of war against the Confederacy. Bonaparte himself assembled an army of 35,000 men and marched east to cross the Mississippi.

The Louisianan invasion caught the Confederates completely by surprise. In the years following the war the CAS had been focused on internal domestic divisions over slavery as well as the rising tensions with the Spanish Republic over Cuba. Within a month Bonaparte had regained control over all the lands previously lost to the CAS. In doing so he raised new units of freed slaves and encouraged them to fight alongside his men to free their comrades from slavery. The Confederacy called upon veteran general Andrew Jackson who gladly decided to gain fresh victories over his old enemy. Jackson however was not prepared to face Bonaparte. Jérôme was a new brand of military tactician. Learning a lot from his father, a veteran of the Sardinian War, as well as from first hand experience and a natural ingenuity Jérôme would remake war in North America in his image. The goal of the Louisianan Army in the first war had been to seize Atlanta, Jackson assumed that it would be the same again and moved his army to block an advance on the city. Jérôme however cared not for cities instead his maxim was to destroy the enemy army in the field, then the cities would fall like grapes. Bonaparte then feigned at Atlanta and moved a force of 10,000 under the command of his old friend and now commander Jean Baudin to take the town of Manchester, a few miles south of Atlanta. Jackson, believing this to be the main Louisianan thrust towards the state capital marched south to face it. Baudin withdrew west drawing the Confederates with him. Bonaparte then sprung his trap. Having used Baudin as bait, Bonaparte and his 25,000 had marched around West Point Lake in secret and then fell on Jackson's army from the rear. The ensuing Battle of Manchester was a crushing victory for the Louisianans. Jackson himself was killed while attempting to rally his men and the entire Confederate army was wiped out. Atlanta fell three days later.

Louisianan and Confederate forces clash at the Battle of Manchester (1819):
http://utnews.utoledo.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/painting-Battle_of_Somosierra_1808.jpg



With the fall of Atlanta Bonaparte could now have made peace on favorable terms. He however was determined to achieve even greater success. Detesting slavery he announced the Atlanta Proclamation, freeing all slaves in occupied CAS lands and granting any escaped slave freedom and land in Louisiana if they could escape the Confederacy. The Proclamation forever endeared Jérôme to the slave and ex-slave communities. Around 2,000 freed slaves were raised and armed (with captured CAS weapons) and were integrated into Bonaparte army. Then Bonaparte marched north. The Confederates were in disarray, their great commander had been killed and Atlanta had fallen. Now the Louisianans were marching north! A new army was being assembled in North Carolina to be sent south. Meanwhile Louisianan irregulars and freed slaves had dispersed and were striking at slave plantations across Georgia and parts of Florida. Soon thousands of slaves were freed and a full guerrilla war was being waged across parts of the south. Eager to prevent the complete collapse of the southern part of the country the Confederate government ordered the hastily assembled army of 50,000 men to march south to protect Charleston, the clear objective of Bonaparte's army. The Battle of Hampton in South Carolina would prove to be Jérôme's masterpiece. Outnumbered the Louisianans managed to smash the Confederate army as Bonaparte's masterful use of artillery and the resolve of his loyal infantry proved too much for the Confederates. On March 1st 1820 Jérôme Bonaparte marched into Charleston.

With much of the CAS in tatters Bonaparte was able to enforce whatever peace he wished. The Treaty of Charleston returned all previous lands taken from Louisiana in the first war back to them, the abolition of slavery in the CAS, and a new republic was created out of occupied western Georgia to be run by freed slaves and to be a free and independent state allied to New Orleans. The Confederate government fumed but had no real choice but to sign unless they wanted to see their way of life completely demolished. Bonaparte, and his now fanatically loyal army, returned to New Orleans in May to a tense situation. Bardet and Lucien had been furious to learn of Bonaparte's unilateral invasion of the CAS, and, returning to the capital (after dealing with the northern insurrection) declared Jérôme a traitor to the republic and hoped to have him arrested. The Battle of Hampton and the Treaty of Charleston changed all this however. The magnificent victory in the east had changed Jérôme who now saw himself as an unchallengeable military genius and the rightful ruler of Louisiana. His men, and many others, agreed. Who could argue with his achievements? When Bardet and Lucien tried to have Bonaparte arrested his men decried the proclamation and in turn arrested the arresters. Jérôme marched triumphantly into the Assembly building where he was met by an angry collection of politicians, including Fontaine and his allies, who had escaped during the panic of Bonaparte's return, who refused to allow Bonaparte into the chamber. Bonaparte's loyal soldiers soon forced the issue and drove the politicians out of the building and had them all placed under military 'protection'. Many of Bonaparte's closest allies now encouraged him to seize power to prevent the old elite from ousting him. Jérôme went one step further. Tired of all the petty political maneuvering, disillusioned with the corrupt and inefficient republic and eager to find a more permanent solution to the question of political leadership (made more pressing as word soon arrived that the Confederate government had not abolished slavery and was now raising a new army as well as courting allies abroad) Jérôme Bonaparte abolished the Assembly and the Republic. On July 14th, almost one year to the day of the coup, Jérôme Bonaparte declared himself Emperor of Louisiana and began preparing once more for war.

The Flag of the Empire of Louisiana:
http://imageshack.us/a/img703/7066/flagoftheempireoflouisi.png

[Razgriz 2K9]

Heh, even without a Napoleon, there will still be a "French" Empire somewhere on this Earth. ;)

Nice update by the way, though would it be possible that the Louisianan Empire might have some long term staying power?

[Iserlohn]

Heh, even without a Napoleon, there will still be a "French" Empire somewhere on this Earth. ;)

Nice update by the way, though would it be possible that the Louisianan Empire might have some long term staying power?

Interestingly still set up by a Bonaparte ;)

And well, I give the Empire of Louisiana about 25 years, tops, with 15 being the most likely. The two main reasons Jérôme won against the CAS are his tactical genius and the fact that the CAS army probably was rather exhausted after the First Louisianan-Confederate War and was further weakened by the slave liberations.

So I expect a rematch or two in the next twenty years and if Jérôme is greedy enough and decides to get the coastal *Texas or parts of the Old North West / parts of the Native American Protectorate then the Brits and the New Englanders will start to dislike the EoL as well.

[Direwolf22]

Heh, even without a Napoleon, there will still be a "French" Empire somewhere on this Earth. ;)

Nice update by the way, though would it be possible that the Louisianan Empire might have some long term staying power?

Haha yup. So we've had Revolutionary, Royalist and bonapartist France in this timeline so far. I'll see how many more I can squeeze in.

Interestingly still set up by a Bonaparte ;)

And well, I give the Empire of Louisiana about 25 years, tops, with 15 being the most likely. The two main reasons Jérôme won against the CAS are his tactical genius and the fact that the CAS army probably was rather exhausted after the First Louisianan-Confederate War and was further weakened by the slave liberations.

So I expect a rematch or two in the next twenty years and if Jérôme is greedy enough and decides to get the coastal *Texas or parts of the Old North West / parts of the Native American Protectorate then the Brits and the New Englanders will start to dislike the EoL as well.

Yeah the victory over the CAS was definitely a triumph of opportunism. The Confederacy has been seriously weakened by this war though. The slave uprisings in the south have destablised the country, as indeed has been the setting up of the new freed slave nation in former Georgia. But yeah Britain will adopt its traditional balance of power approach to the continent but will support its Dominion if attacked. The UPA though is feeling quite anxious about this turn of events to its east.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Haha yup. So we've had Revolutionary, Royalist and bonapartist France in this timeline so far. I'll see how many more I can squeeze in.

Well, let's hope they don't get to Gaullist France by the end of this.

Yeah the victory over the CAS was definitely a triumph of opportunism. The Confederacy has been seriously weakened by this war though. The slave uprisings in the south have destablised the country, as indeed has been the setting up of the new freed slave nation in former Georgia. But yeah Britain will adopt its traditional balance of power approach to the continent but will support its Dominion if attacked. The UPA though is feeling quite anxious about this turn of events to its east.

So what will this new nation be called? I assume The Republic of Georgia is out of the question? (and the possibility of the Empire or Kingdom of Georgia might be written off as well)

[Direwolf22]

Well, let's hope they don't get to Gaullist France by the end of this.



So what will this new nation be called? I assume The Republic of Georgia is out of the question? (and the possibility of the Empire or Kingdom of Georgia might be written off as well)


Haha I don't think Gaullism will occur ITTL. I'm not sure to be honest. Something stereotypical like the Freedmen Republic?

[Vitruvius]

I like the idea of the Louisiana Republic cum Empire. In some ways it seems like there maybe some of the same tension as the OTL French state with a large and powerful very urban capital (New Orleans/Paris) dominating a large state with a significant rural population.

Though when it comes to the south east US I feel like maybe I missed something somewhere. What is going on in OTL Mississippi AL, Western GA and TN? Specifically what about the five civilized tribes? Because speaking of Atlanta GA as a major city ca 1820 represents a major departure given that OTL the city didn't exist until much later as the area in question was controlled by the Cherokee Nation at the time. Did the Confederates make some really massive push into the area right after independence? And if they did what became of the tribes because its not like they could just be pushed west like OTL.

[RandomWriterGuy]

Wonder what's happening the other side of the Atlantic. ;)

[Direwolf22]

I like the idea of the Louisiana Republic cum Empire. In some ways it seems like there maybe some of the same tension as the OTL French state with a large and powerful very urban capital (New Orleans/Paris) dominating a large state with a significant rural population.

Though when it comes to the south east US I feel like maybe I missed something somewhere. What is going on in OTL Mississippi AL, Western GA and TN? Specifically what about the five civilized tribes? Because speaking of Atlanta GA as a major city ca 1820 represents a major departure given that OTL the city didn't exist until much later as the area in question was controlled by the Cherokee Nation at the time. Did the Confederates make some really massive push into the area right after independence? And if they did what became of the tribes because its not like they could just be pushed west like OTL.

Indeed I wanted to sort of mirror the Parisian/Provincial relationship on this side of the Atlantic. Other cities are growing in importance (St. Louis, Lille, Bardet) but New Orleans remains dominant.

The CAS (and before under its Dominion state) has made drives against the Natives in this area. A lot have been pushed into Florida (which is sort of shaping up as an Oklahoma like state). More went west into Louisiana. Louisiana has a very large native population. In fact north of St. Louis the nation is majority native in many areas. I will do a better update on the native population soon but lets just say there is going to be lot of conflicts in and around the north of the Empire in the next decades.

Wonder what's happening the other side of the Atlantic. ;)

Haha don't worry, my next update will return to the Old World.

[Darth_Kiryan]

Bonaparte's never die! it seems.

[Direwolf22]

Bonaparte's never die! it seems.

Haha it wouldn't be alternate history without a Bonaparte. This one won't be as adventurous however.

[Danth]

Just saw this and subbed :)

[Direwolf22]

Just saw this and subbed :)

Glad you're enjoying it. It's on a temporary hold as my university studies are getting pretty intense, but will be updated more as we get to Christmas.

[General Mosh]

Bonaparte, slave liberator! Has a nice ring to it.

[Zoidberg12]

This is one of the best, and one of my favorite timelines on the site. As a fan of European history, reading this timeline was allot of fun. :D Very plausible, very well reaserched and and I the subtle analogies to OTL were done well (I have to say, I didn't see Bonapartist Louisiana coming at all :p, but still awesome). I read the TL back in July and was very happy when new updates came. :D

Can't wait until the next update, which I assume will be on the "Fourth Silesian War". Also what's been going on with Latin America?

I liked the infoboxes you made, so I decided to make one of them myself.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=193203&stc=1&d=1355953200

[Direwolf22]

Thanks, I'm glad you are enjoying it. I'll try not to dissapoint you haha. Yes I quite enjoyed Bonapartist Louisiana, Louisiana is one of my favourite parts of TTL. Yes now that it is Christmas break I will be posting a few more updates. The next ones i have planned, in order, are one covering Britain and France from the Revolutionary Wars to the Fourth Silesian War then the war itself and then one on Latin America. For now I'll say that Brazil and New Granada are going through a series of political and social internal developments, La Plata and Republican Peru are staring daggers at one another. The UPA is trying to forge itself into a nation, which if it is successful in doing will be this timeline's American superpower.

Excellent wikibox btw.

[Direwolf22]

The Great Powers
Britain and France (1805-1830)



In the early 19th Century there were two nations that could be defined as “Great Powers”. They were the only countries capable of global (or near enough) power projection and were the leading parties during the Revolutionary Wars. These of course were Britain and France. Other nations, Austria-Hungary and Prussia for example, were major players in their own regions and others looked to emerge into the ranks of Great Powers in the near future, Russia. But in the period between the Revolutionary Wars and the Fourth Silesian War, London and Paris were the two great capitals.


Great Britain emerged triumphant from the Revolutionary Wars. It had helped liberate Louisiana from France as well as aid in the collapse of the Spanish American empire whilst aiding and assisting its allies on the European continent. One key relationship for Britain in the period 1805-30 was that with the Dominion of New England. The strengthening and continued friendship between New York (later Boston) and London was a great boon to Britain in this period. Trade with the Dominion, as well as with the rest of the ever-growing empire made Britain rich and affluent. The Barbary War (1807-1810) was the turning point in Britain seeing the Dominion as a partner and future ally. With North America now apparently secured Britain turned its attentions elsewhere. It established trading posts throughout Africa and the Pacific, which caused it to have a brief skirmish with the Dutch over Australia. In this period too Britain began making its first major inroads, along with the Portuguese and Dutch, into China.


The primary developments in this period for Britain however were domestic. Ireland was the first issue that drew attention. An Irish Rebellion broke out in 1814, encouraged perhaps by the revolutions in France and the Americas. The rising however did not pose a serious risk. The Reform Act of the previous century, specifically Catholic Emancipation, seemed to have placated the majority of the Irish. The rising was eventually defeated in 1816, interestingly enough the majority of government troops were loyal Irish. The government, now led by the Earl of Liverpool, decided that the loyal Irish should be rewarded to prevent any such rebellion again. In 1818 the government passed the Union Act forming the United Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland. Ireland, or more properly the Kingdom of Ireland, was given equal footing with Britain and Dublin was given more autonomy, though full executive power stayed in Westminster. The other key political development in Britain during this period was the rise of reform-ism, and republicanism. Many in Britain had since the Four Years War begun calling, quietly, for Britain to become a republic. The 1796 “Kent Speech” is often seen as the birth of the modern British republican movement. But it was after 1805 that the movement begun to gain serious traction. Why, they asked, should Britain remain a monarchy whilst it supported republican movements from Spain to Louisiana? By 1830 a large minority in Parliament were pro-Republic and with King George IV's health rapidly deteriorating and with only a daughter to succeed him the United Kingdoms were heading for a constitutional breaking point.


France was in the losing side of the Revolutionary Wars. It's colonial empire had been much reduced, though it still held Quebec, its Spanish ally had been cut in half and to its east the German states of Prussia, Austria-Hungary and the League were hostile. It however had not been truly defeated. It had actually gained land on the European continent and its armies had proven more that capable. It's own internal revolution had been crushed and it was well on its way to becoming a truly constitutional monarchy. Indeed out of all the states that had fought on the side of reaction it was by far the most reformist, more so indeed that many of its war-time opponents had been, such as Prussia. The old king had died in 1809 and had been succeeded by his son who became Louis XVII. King Louis, like his father, was an advocate of the constitutional limited monarchy. The recently established French parliament in Paris saw its powers grow in the passing of three decrees (in 1812, 1819 and 1825). There was some opposition to this trend both from the left (who wanted more powers to the parliament) and from the right (who wanted less), but in general the reforms were accepted. Though its powers were still short of those of Westminster.


France, like Britain, grew in wealth and power in this period. The new reform-minded French government freed up many of the more archaic and repressive economic and social limits allowing trade and commerce to grow in the Kingdom. And with the new rich lands in the northeast the French state was bringing in more capital than ever before. Like Britain, France set about establishing itself as a global power. The Philippines had already been seized from Spain and French India was reinforced and new allies were courted on the subcontinent. France too sought to reach out to the new Louisianan Empire and forge a friendship with this francophone nation. Quebec was a major part of French foreign policy in this time. Encouraged immigration had seen the population of the colony rise sharply and many, in France and Quebec, began to call for a new relationship between the two. In the end it was decided that Dominionship was far too British instead, similar to the relationship between Portugal and Brasil, Quebec was directly integrated into France and a royally appointed governor would manage Quebec, though Quebecois were allowed to be represented in the Parisian Parliament, known as the Chamber.

France 1830:
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/1383/france18302.png



Though both Britain and France were content to look to their own domestic political reforms in this period and to the wider world for new lands both were to have their eyes forcibly pulled back to the heart of Europe in 1830. To Silesia.




-

[Razgriz 2K9]

I'm actually surprised that only Great Britain and France are the only two Great Powers of the world (though of course this is the era before the term of Superpower came into form and both nations would fit that description.) Then again, with the Germanies focusing on Central Europe (Or rather just the German States), and Spain bisected...

Is Russia the only potential GP in this TL, and are there others, like Louisiana or the United Provinces?

[Direwolf22]

I'm actually surprised that only Great Britain and France are the only two Great Powers of the world (though of course this is the era before the term of Superpower came into form and both nations would fit that description.) Then again, with the Germanies focusing on Central Europe (Or rather just the German States), and Spain bisected...

Is Russia the only potential GP in this TL, and are there others, like Louisiana or the United Provinces?

Well their the only powers with global reach which in my mind makes them great powers. Austria is too focused on its immediate neighbourhood to exert any influence further abroad. Russia is really the third great power, it just has been focused on internal developments and issues since the civil war. But it will announce itself on the world stage very soon.

Louisiana, currently, lacks the population to be a major world power. New England is emerging as a global player and the UPA has major superpower potential, if they can get there.

[General Mosh]

Interesting that Quebec was directly integrated into France.

[Zoidberg12]

Excellent update, and well worth the wait. :cool: Quebec integrated into France ala Brazil and evolving demoratic France, I saw pretty much saw both coming. :D British Republicanism on the other hand.....

Thought that last one does make sense what with the monarchy becoming weaker and discredited under Geogre III, not to mention a more liberal Britain. I assume Princess Charlotte is still alive then if George IV had a duaghter.

One more question, is George IV as unpopular as we was IOTL?

[Direwolf22]

Interesting that Quebec was directly integrated into France.

Yup. Seems like the most likely outcome. Also should have an interesting effect on the North American political balance.

Excellent update, and well worth the wait. :cool: Quebec integrated into France ala Brazil and evolving demoratic France, I saw pretty much saw both coming. :D British Republicanism on the other hand.....

Thought that last one does make sense what with the monarchy becoming weaker and discredited under Geogre III, not to mention a more liberal Britain. I assume Princess Charlotte is still alive then if George IV had a duaghter.

One more question, is George IV as unpopular as we was IOTL?

Yeah France has been a foreseeable wip for a while. I do like to keep a few surprises though. Exactly this is a much more liberal and progressive Britain than this time in OTL, due to siding with rather than against revolutionaries. Yes it is Charlotte, she is probably the last OTL character born after the POD that we will see.

No he's not. Not that he's very well liked either. But due to the gradual reduction in the powers of the monarch ITLL he is more of a figurehead and is removed from public life. Charlotte however is well liked by the people and the politicians, minus the republicans of course.

[Direwolf22]

Pre-update self bump. Later today: The Fourth Silesian War Part 1

[Sian]

been reading it all and its great ... although i agree with Gorm the Old, that Denmark joining up with its arch nemesis Sweden in a war against Prussia pushes the plausibility. (it would be like France and England joining forces against Spain). At this point in time Denmark as Prussia was still allies more often than not.

Most plausible save would probably be to push a new dynastic unification between the royal houses, which allready was cadet-lines of the Holstein line. (And the Swedish crown wasn't as hereditary solid as most would like to and it was 'often' taken over by people with no direct ties to it (Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte) or not in direct line of heritage.

That said, i don't really think you can dislogde Holstein from Denmark that easily ... it was (co)ruled either by the Danish king or close family since 1460 and have had quite a bit of interchange between the nobility (several of the still existing danish nobility is originally from Holstein). And without an Austria-Prussia able to agree force a stop the Duchy being annexed completely by Denmark, it wouldn't take long to merge it with the Danish Duchy of Schleswig. And i guess Bourbon France, Bourbon Poland and/or Russia would take offense to such a strenghening of a protential opponent

[Direwolf22]

been reading it all and its great ... although i agree with Gorm the Old, that Denmark joining up with its arch nemesis Sweden in a war against Prussia pushes the plausibility. (it would be like France and England joining forces against Spain). At this point in time Denmark as Prussia was still allies more often than not.

Most plausible save would probably be to push a new dynastic unification between the royal houses, which allready was cadet-lines of the Holstein line. (And the Swedish crown wasn't as hereditary solid as most would like to and it was 'often' taken over by people with no direct ties to it (Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte) or not in direct line of heritage.

That said, i don't really think you can dislogde Holstein from Denmark that easily ... it was (co)ruled either by the Danish king or close family since 1460 and have had quite a bit of interchange between the nobility (several of the still existing danish nobility is originally from Holstein). And without an Austria-Prussia able to agree force a stop the Duchy being annexed completely by Denmark, it wouldn't take long to merge it with the Danish Duchy of Schleswig. And i guess Bourbon France, Bourbon Poland and/or Russia would take offense to such a strenghening of a protential opponent

I'm glad you're enjoying it. On your first point I think it can be explained by the fact that Sweden and Denmark weren't really fighting together, just on the same side. The enmity remains (and with Sweden bowing out of the war has actually increased somewhat) but the enemy of my enemy is my friend. There was very little Danish-Swedish co-operation in the war effort, which obviously didn't help their cause. The shifting balance of power in Germany and Prussia and the League's rise represented a threat to Denmark and Sweden both.

Now on the Holstein issue I am inclined to agree with you somewhat, and maybe it would have made more sense to keep it as part of Denmark. Saying that though I don't think it is too implausible. Denmark still has great influence over the new kingdom and a lot of friends in Holstein. Denmark is also committed to regaining control over it. Had it not been the fact that if it had kept fighting it would have been alone against Prussia and the League (not to mention possible Austrian intervention) it would have fought to keep Holstein.

[Direwolf22]

The Fourth Silesian War
Part I: The Prelude to War

The conflict that would plunge Europe into a war on a scale not seen on the continent since the Thirty Years War was the result of various contributing factors. The question of Silesia would obviously be the spark but under the surface there were numerous forces at work. The aftermath of the Revolutionary Wars, the first signs of the emergence of nationalism, republicanism and global ambitions all played their parts. The Revolutionary Wars had destabilised the continent and the roughly thirty years between the wars was in many ways a powder keg just waiting for the spark.

Poland had undergone dramatic change since the Civil War (1794-1798). Louis II had crushed the rebels and recentralised authority under his rule from the capital at Warsaw. The abolition of the liberum veto as well as other reforms, limited reforms, had allowed Poland to evolve into a modern kingdom. The nation had also managed to avoid becoming entangled in the Revolutionary Wars as well as escaping from Russian invasion due to St. Petersburg's focus on the Balkans. Louis II died in 1823 and was succeeded by his son Henry who became Henry IV of Poland. Henry, like his father and grandfather, was a supporter of the monarch's authority, however he was also inspired by the wave of reform around Europe and the Americas and in 1826 he officially abolished serfdom in the Kingdom and passed new laws to benefit the lower and middle classes. The nobles grumbled as usual, but the memory of the Civil War, kept them quite. However Henry was determined to go further, he wanted to make Poland a great power again. Plus a patriotic struggle would, he hoped, rally the disgruntled aristocracy around him and the nation. A campaign against Russia was considered unwise so instead he looked to retake the old Polish territory of Silesia. Polish forces began preparing for war.

Austria, or more properly Austria-Hungary, had become one of the most socially and culturally advanced states in Europe. Francis I, the ardent reformer, had transformed his country along lines outlined by his father, Joseph II. Throughout the late 1820s however Austria was becoming increasingly focussed on foreign affairs. It had one eye on Germany watching the actions of Munich, as well as Dortmund and Berlin and the other eye on the Balkans where the Bear was continuing to entrench itself. Simultaneously it was forced to keep glancing at Italy as well as looking over its shoulder at Poland and Silesia. Francis was growing ever fearful of Austria being politically surrounded, hence the reach out to the Turk. More important however was the relation with Berlin. As war with Poland became increasingly likely Vienna was determined to get the guarantee of support from King Wilhelm.

The escalating Austro-Polish tensions over Silesia were observed with great interest by Berlin. The Prussians themselves had desires to regain Silesia, though their formal renouncement of claims to the territory under Frederick William II were a bit of an impediment. The Prussians though, despite this, had no plans to attempt to seize Silesia. A three-way war for the territory would be disastrous. In the end, after much lobbying from Vienna, the king and his ministers decided that Polish territory would be just as beneficial, linking up East Prussia with the rest of the country. Consequently on August 9th 1830 King Wilhelm renewed the Austro-Prussian Alliance of 1783 and announced Prussia would support Austria is Poland attacked. The Poles now reaffirmed their alliance with Saxony-Bavaria to counter this and seek to force the Austrians to fight on at least two fronts. The battle-lines were drawn.

There were still however some major question marks over the coming conflict. Would the war stay focused on Silesia with Austria and Prussia set against Poland and Saxony-Bavaria? Or would the other powers get involved. In September King Louis XVIII of France, king since 1828, wrote to his cousin in Warsaw asking Poland not to go to war over Silesia, however, he wrote, if war becomes inevitable France would support them. Other concerns were raised over Britain and the League. Would the League honour its alliance with Prussia? There was great doubt over this. The new Grand Marshall, King Frederick of Münster, was an old man who was focused on the internal political dealings of the League and was known to bear the Prussians no great love. Britain had since the Revolutionary Wards sought to distance itself from the continental bickering. However Vienna and Berlin were both confident that Britain would join them in order to prevent France from gaining too much power on the continent. The rest of the German states were for the most part up for grabs, though Hanover was an ally of the Poles. The Italian states too could be entangled, the peninsula was indeed subject to many political forces bubbling under the radar. The birth of the Neapolitan Republic had destabilised Italy and this force had been growing, unnoticed by the outside powers. The biggest unknown however was of course Russia.

The Russians had not fought in the Revolutionary Wars proper, instead they had been fighting against the Turks in the Balkan War (1796-1802) which had seen Russia gain a trio of new allies in the region and finally cement their control of the Crimea. Russia internally had been undergoing huge changes since the 1770s. Serfdom and the more archaic laws had been abolished and Russia had seen six decades of modernisation, partial liberalisation and military reform. The son of Paul I and new Tsar, Peter IV, had continued these trends. The Russian Duma had become a significant political force. The old division between Conservatives and Moderates had disappeared. Now there were the Traditionalists, who emphasized slower reform and expansion to the north and west, and the Militarists, who were in favour of more rapid reforms and wished to finish off the Turks. Peter IV however was more favourable to the Traditionalist party who were the dominant force. The Poles were unwilling to go to war over Silesia with Russia looming on their eastern border.

In October however King Louis II of Poland was given information by his ministers that they in turn had received from their agents in St. Petersburg. It indicated that the Russians were preparing to go to war with Sweden to regain control of Karelia and push into Finland. With this information and France's promise of aid the Poles decided to act. On October 20th 1830 a Polish army of around 30,000 men invaded Silesia, the war had started.



Europe 1830, The Eve of War:

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/85/1830europewipwords3.png

[Sian]

by the way ... a question ... who's ruling Greece? ... a local OTL nobody?

Would also be interesting to see if any of the royal lines around would be changed ...

[Direwolf22]

by the way ... a question ... who's ruling Greece? ... a local OTL nobody?

Would also be interesting to see if any of the royal lines around would be changed ...

Greece is ruled by King Constantine I. He is the younger brother of the current Russian Tsar Peter IV, though he has renounced any claim to the Russian throne.

Well Poland are ruled by the Bourbons so thats a change. Others will begin to see changes as well.

[Zoidberg12]

Nice update, it sets a very good stage for events to come. I can tell things are getting really serious over in Europe. We can only image what will happen next. :cool:

However, I do have a good idea of what the alliances might be. These are just my predictions for the war. Based on the update, I image more nations will be gradually dragged in.

Alliance One:

France
Poland
Sweden (They may at be able to keep Finland, and gain Norway, either that or lose Finland and gain Norway like IOTL)
Saxony-Bavaria (Possibly divided between Prussia and Austria after war if they win)
Sardinia (Against Austria, alliance through France, their Bourbon cousins)
Modena (Dragged in by Sardinia due to proximity)
Lucca (See above)
Ottoman Empire (Against Russia, but at peace with Austria due a cordial relationship with the former. May lose the Balkans after the war.)

Alliance Two:

Prussia
Austria-Hungary
Russia
Great Britain
Dutch Republic (probably to gain industrially rich Belgian region)
League of the Rhine (They may eventually have to join to to their association with Prussia)
Denmark (due to their rivalry with Sweden)
United Kingdom of the Danube (due to their relationship with Russia)
Serbia (see above)
Montenegro (as a Slavic nation, it may be dragged into war)
Greece (against the Ottomans with lots of Greek land still in the Turks control)

The rest of the German/Italian states, Iberia and Switzerland are up in the air for me. Also on a similar note, nice map. :D

I have some questions about TTL's royal families.

Is Tsar Peter IV supposed to be anyone in particular or is he a fictional character?

Since Louis XVI is IITL is Louis Dauphin of France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis,_Dauphin_of_France_(1729%E2%80%931765)), then I assume OTL's Louis XVI was Louis XVII, and I also assume that Louis XVIII is OTL's Lost Dauphin. Is this correct?

Since IOTL Louis XVIII, ITTL Louis I of Poland, had no sons then I assume all the Polish Kings afterwards are fictional. In that case who did Louis I marry again, I don't think it was mentioned?

[Razgriz 2K9]

Outside of Poland (and to a lesser extent, Prussian) claims to Silesia. what claims do the other nations that are warring (I'm assuming France, Great Britain, Russia and the Rhenish League) have on...everyone else?

[Direwolf22]

Nice update, it sets a very good stage for events to come. I can tell things are getting really serious over in Europe. We can only image what will happen next. :cool:

However, I do have a good idea of what the alliances might be. These are just my predictions for the war. Based on the update, I image more nations will be gradually dragged in.

Alliance One:

France
Poland
Sweden (They may at be able to keep Finland, and gain Norway, either that or lose Finland and gain Norway like IOTL)
Saxony-Bavaria (Possibly divided between Prussia and Austria after war if they win)
Sardinia (Against Austria, alliance through France, their Bourbon cousins)
Modena (Dragged in by Sardinia due to proximity)
Lucca (See above)
Ottoman Empire (Against Russia, but at peace with Austria due a cordial relationship with the former. May lose the Balkans after the war.)

Alliance Two:

Prussia
Austria-Hungary
Russia
Great Britain
Dutch Republic (probably to gain industrially rich Belgian region)
League of the Rhine (They may eventually have to join to to their association with Prussia)
Denmark (due to their rivalry with Sweden)
United Kingdom of the Danube (due to their relationship with Russia)
Serbia (see above)
Montenegro (as a Slavic nation, it may be dragged into war)
Greece (against the Ottomans with lots of Greek land still in the Turks control)

The rest of the German/Italian states, Iberia and Switzerland are up in the air for me. Also on a similar note, nice map. :D

I have some questions about TTL's royal families.

Is Tsar Peter IV supposed to be anyone in particular or is he a fictional character?

Since Louis XVI is IITL is Louis Dauphin of France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis,_Dauphin_of_France_%281729%E2%80%931765%29), then I assume OTL's Louis XVI was Louis XVII, and I also assume that Louis XVIII is OTL's Lost Dauphin. Is this correct?

Since IOTL Louis XVIII, ITTL Louis I of Poland, had no sons then I assume all the Polish Kings afterwards are fictional. In that case who did Louis I marry again, I don't think it was mentioned?

Thanks. Looking over your alliances I see you've got a few right, a few wrong and a couple not mentioned. I won't say anymore yet ;)

Tsar Peter IV is fictional. At this point we are nearly 80 years from the POD so almost everyone from now on is going to be fictional.

Now I'm going to post a Bourbon family tree (a small one) in a minute that will help answer this. I made it for myself earlier as I was losing track of which Louis is which. But yes OTL Louis XVI is TTL Louis XVII. TTL Louis XVIII is fictional. The two OTL sons of our Louis XVI were not born in this timeline.

Louis I of Poland married Princess Konstancija Poniatowska (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz_Poniatowski), a Polish aristocrat to endear himself and cement his rule in Poland. So yes all future Polish kings after him are fictional.

Outside of Poland (and to a lesser extent, Prussian) claims to Silesia. what claims do the other nations that are warring (I'm assuming France, Great Britain, Russia and the Rhenish League) have on...everyone else?

Well Russia has claims on Finland and Karelia, controlled by Sweden. As well as on Poland. The League doesn't have claims on anyone as it is in effect an artificial construction. The Balkans and the rest of Germany are a mess of competing claims. Britain and France do not have any continental claims, now that France has the former Austrian Low Countries. With the possible exception of some French claims on Sardinia (Piedmont) I'm not sure. Sweden has claims in return on Pomerania (lost to Prussia) and the Danes on Holstein. Those are the main ones I believe.

*Edit: Plus obviously the Spains have claims on each other, both presenting themselves as the true Spain. As well the Kingdom Sicily claims Naples.

[Zoidberg12]

Thanks for answering my questions Direwolf. :) As for my predicitions, we'll just have to wait and see. I can't wait. :D

Some more questions; does this mean that King Constantine I of Greece as well as Tsar Paul's other children ITTL, are fictional as well. Do any of his OTL children exist ITTL?

I really should say, an early liberal Russia is one of my favorite parts of the timeline, along with surviving Poland, Bonapartist Louisiana, a stronger Dutch Empire and a Spanish Republic, among others. :cool: But what happended to Catherine II after the Revolution? Was she imprisoned, executed or exiled?

[Direwolf22]

Thanks for answering my questions Direwolf. :) As for my predicitions, we'll just have to wait and see. I can't wait. :D

Some more questions; does this mean that King Constantine I of Greece as well as Tsar Paul's other children ITTL, are fictional as well. Do any of his OTL children exist ITTL?

I really should say, an early liberal Russia is one of my favorite parts of the timeline, along with surviving Poland, Bonapartist Louisiana, a stronger Dutch Empire and a Spanish Republic, among others. :cool: But what happended to Catherine II after the Revolution? Was she imprisoned, executed or exiled?

Tsar Paul actually had a son called Konstantin in OTL, and he is effectively this Constantine of Greece. Tsar Peter is really just a slightly different version of OTL Nicholas.

Yes I quite like this Russia as well, I am interested in exploring the idea of a liberal Russia. So often in timelines Russia is presented as a) communist or b) some autocratic expansionist empire. So this is a nice change. Louisiana and North America are also some of my favourite areas to write about.

Edit: Oh and Catherine. I believe in my post covering the Russian Civil War I mention that Catherine was exiled but had an "accident" en route. Basically she was murdered.

[Direwolf22]

I thought it was worth noting that events in Europe are now roughly a decade ahead of those in my last North American update.

The birth of the Louisianan Empire was July 1820 and the outbreak of the Fourth Silesian War is October 1830. I will be bringing North America "up to speed" with Europe at some point, then looking at the rest of the Americas and elsewhere.

My next updates (at least one, probably two) will be on the war in Europe though.

[Germania09]

Heres hoping that Austria Hungary comes out of this noticeably larger :D:D:D

[Direwolf22]

Heres hoping that Austria Hungary comes out of this noticeably larger :D:D:D

Who knows. Well I do, haha. They don't want too much new land though, those troublesome minorities.

[Sian]

just to point it out, but Denmark-Norway got a few claims on swedish lands as well ... they'd like to get back what they lost in 1658, that is, Bohuslän, Scandia, Blekinge and Halland

[Direwolf22]

just to point it out, but Denmark-Norway got a few claims on swedish lands as well ... they'd like to get back what they lost in 1658, that is, Bohuslän, Scandia, Blekinge and Halland

Of course. Though I'm sure the reverse is true as well. Most countries in Europe had claims on one another back then.

[Direwolf22]

A family tree of the Bourbons showing the Royal Houses of Poland and France. This obviously does not show all the Bourbons in Europe but should give an idea to the relationship between French and Polish royal families.

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3326/thebourbons.png

[Razgriz 2K9]

So Louis XVIII is Henry IV's second cousin...huh...

Well, at least this isn't like the Hapsburgs in Spain and their screwed up genepool.

So let me see if I remember this:

There is the Bourbon main branch, which are descendents of Henry III of Navarre, who became Henri IV of France, of which Louis XVIII is the current monarch.

There is the Spanish/Aragonese Branch which are descendents of Louis XIV's eldest son, Felipe V. Since Ferdinand jumped ship for the New World, it's safe to assume the current monarch is Charles V or his ATL equivalent.

Speaking of the New World, the La Platan branch which was started by Ferdinand as Ferdinand I.

There is the Polish Branch which is Louis I (OTL Louis XVIII) and his descendents, of which Henry IV is the current Monarch.

There is the Parmese Branch which are also descendents of Philip V, and of which Charles II is Duke...despite the fact that Parma no longer exists as an independent state.

And then there is the Sicilian Branch, which are descendents of Charles III of Spain, of which the current King is probably Francis I.

...Am I forgetting something or did I misplace someone? Cause god almighty, it's hard to keep track of such an expansive family, it's like the House of Hapsburg all over again, and that's not even getting to the non-Head of State titles. :confused:

[Sian]

Of course. Though I'm sure the reverse is true as well. Most countries in Europe had claims on one another back then.

Not as much as you'd might think at this ... sure Gustav IV (he's probably the king around now (specially considering that there's no reason for the military revolt that happened OTL 1809, which happened because he lost Finland) is Matrilineal grandson to Frederik V of Denmark, hence the danish monarch (depending on when it is) is his uncle or cousin. But otherwise Denmark doesn't at this point own any land that have been under swedish rule before (well ... Bornholm, but sweden only conquered it in 1658, and gave it back to denmark in 1660 after a revolt on the island to bring back danish rule).

That said ... ITTL the danish fleet would probably still be a serious contester as the strongest fleet in Baltics, due to the lack of the British bombing of Copenhagen, and subsequent seize of the fleet.

That said ... if given only a 'not quite decisive' victory to the danish and followed meditation from a third party, i believe that it would end with Denmark regaining Scania and Blekinge ... Halland and Bohuslän is going to stay swedish (even if they have to put a few chests of gold on the table) since they're to important keeping the safety of the Swedish North sea port clear (Gothenburg)

[Ahab]

hi this is a great TL! one of the best in my opinion.
I have a few questions:
1) according to your map, it seems that Serbia controls eastren Bulgaria. what is the bulgarian reaction to Sophia beeing in a difrent contry than the rest of Bulgaria?
2) What is the status of the Jews in each contry? does any contry gave them an emancipation? What is their status in the most jewish land- Poland?
how liberal Russia and Austria-hungary treats them?
3) what are the relations between France and the Dutch Republic?

[Direwolf22]

So Louis XVIII is Henry IV's second cousin...huh...

Well, at least this isn't like the Hapsburgs in Spain and their screwed up genepool.

So let me see if I remember this:

There is the Bourbon main branch, which are descendents of Henry III of Navarre, who became Henri IV of France, of which Louis XVIII is the current monarch.

There is the Spanish/Aragonese Branch which are descendents of Louis XIV's eldest son, Felipe V. Since Ferdinand jumped ship for the New World, it's safe to assume the current monarch is Charles V or his ATL equivalent.

Speaking of the New World, the La Platan branch which was started by Ferdinand as Ferdinand I.

There is the Polish Branch which is Louis I (OTL Louis XVIII) and his descendents, of which Henry IV is the current Monarch.

There is the Parmese Branch which are also descendents of Philip V, and of which Charles II is Duke...despite the fact that Parma no longer exists as an independent state.

And then there is the Sicilian Branch, which are descendents of Charles III of Spain, of which the current King is probably Francis I.

...Am I forgetting something or did I misplace someone? Cause god almighty, it's hard to keep track of such an expansive family, it's like the House of Hapsburg all over again, and that's not even getting to the non-Head of State titles. :confused:

Yup. These guys get around. They are the Hapsburgs of TTL, though like you said with a more diverse gene-pool. For now anyway. Yeah I mean.. there are lots of them. I've got a handwritten family tree with all the Bourbons (or nearly all) which I had to make cause you just lose track after a while. Maybe I should make some more republics :D

Not as much as you'd might think at this ... sure Gustav IV (he's probably the king around now (specially considering that there's no reason for the military revolt that happened OTL 1809, which happened because he lost Finland) is Matrilineal grandson to Frederik V of Denmark, hence the danish monarch (depending on when it is) is his uncle or cousin. But otherwise Denmark doesn't at this point own any land that have been under swedish rule before (well ... Bornholm, but sweden only conquered it in 1658, and gave it back to denmark in 1660 after a revolt on the island to bring back danish rule).

That said ... ITTL the danish fleet would probably still be a serious contester as the strongest fleet in Baltics, due to the lack of the British bombing of Copenhagen, and subsequent seize of the fleet.

That said ... if given only a 'not quite decisive' victory to the danish and followed meditation from a third party, i believe that it would end with Denmark regaining Scania and Blekinge ... Halland and Bohuslän is going to stay swedish (even if they have to put a few chests of gold on the table) since they're to important keeping the safety of the Swedish North sea port clear (Gothenburg)

Well you raise some good points and I can see you are quite well informed about scandinavia in this period. The Danish fleet is indeed quite powerful. One of the more powerful in Europe actually after the UK, France, Portugal and the Dutch (with the Spanish fleet in ruins and split after the Civil War). If Denmark and Sweden do go to war the Danes will have the edge at sea but it remains to be seen if they can hold Norway. Though if the Russians do get involved as well..

hi this is a great TL! one of the best in my opinion.
I have a few questions:
1) according to your map, it seems that Serbia controls eastren Bulgaria. what is the bulgarian reaction to Sophia beeing in a difrent contry than the rest of Bulgaria?
2) What is the status of the Jews in each contry? does any contry gave them an emancipation? What is their status in the most jewish land- Poland?
how liberal Russia and Austria-hungary treats them?
3) what are the relations between France and the Dutch Republic?

Thank you, good to hear. Let me see if I can answer your questions:
1) Yes Serbia does own those lands. Their borders are a relic of old Ottoman administrative divisions, not ideal. This is before nationalism has emerged as a serious force in the world so the Bulgarians aren't as self-aware as they will become. Regardless many Bulgarians (those who are developing a national identity) are unhappy to see Sophia in Serb hands, though, not as unhappy as they themselves are to be under Ottoman rule.
2) Generally not too different from OTL at the moment in most cases. The exception being in Russia. The Russians are more tolerant, at least officially, of Jewish people in TTL due to overall being a more liberal nation. The intelligencia in Germany has a sizable Jewish contingent.
3) Poor. The Dutch are wary of the French on their border, now the former Austrian Netherlands are ruled from Paris. The French in turn are suspicious of the Dutch and jealous of their expansive colonial territory.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Another question I've gotta ask, and gosh darn it if I didn't forget...

Who's ruling what in all the Little Germanies? (aka the German states that are neither Hohenzollern Prussia, Hapsburg Austria-Hungary, Wettin Saxobavaria and Oldenburger (?) Rhineland)

[Sian]

the thing about Norway ... except for a few cities the vast majority to important parts of the country is either directly on the coast or connected via Fjords, and with the Danish-Norwegian fleet having a certain focus on 'shallow-keeled' ships that could go in shallow waters (and coastal batteries specially in the sound and the belts), due to Kattegat which is riled with reefs and shallow areas, at some points only being sail able in a barely 4km wide band, it would be tricky for enemy forces to successfully siege important places, and infantry would also have a hard time penetrating from the east, other than in a relatively small area in the southeast, due to bad infrastructure and rough terrain. So Sweden would have to throw much more at Norway than initially believed.

In the Baltics there are 3½ powers ... Denmark, Sweden, Russia and due to mercantile interest the dutch, traditionally its Denmark that have had the upper hand (partially due to aforementioned strategically important coastal batteries), but specially when Sweden was at their imperialistic height, they had a stronger fleet, with Russia most often being the minnow in this game due to their short coastal area and lack of baltic ship-yard.

[Dirk_Pitt]

Hey Direwolf,

Are you the same Direwolf that does minecraft vids on youtube?


Good timeline!

[Direwolf22]

Another question I've gotta ask, and gosh darn it if I didn't forget...

Who's ruling what in all the Little Germanies? (aka the German states that are neither Hohenzollern Prussia, Hapsburg Austria-Hungary, Wettin Saxobavaria and Oldenburger (?) Rhineland)


Ok well I suppose its about time I got this all sorted out so here is a list of all the German states and their current rulers/leaders. (Italics signals that they are in the League).



Kingdom of Prussia: King Wilhelm I
Austro-Hungarian Empire: Emperor Francis I
Kingdom of Saxony-Bavaria: King Maximilian I
Kingdom of Hanover: King William I
Holstein: Duke Charles
Kingdom of Swabia: King Christian II
League of the Rhine: Grand Marshall Frederick of Munsterland
Kingdom of Munsterland: King Frederick I
Republic of Cologne: Chancellor Jürgen Hoffmann
Kingdom of Oldenburg: King Anton
Kingdom of Westphalia: King August
Kingdom of Cleves: King Charles
Kingdom of Nassau: King William
Kingdom of Mark: King George
Republic of Osnabruck: Chancellor Friz Neumann
Republic of Lippe: Chancellor Gerhard Lehrer
Duchy of Paderborn: Duke Charles
Duchy of Trier: Duke Ludwig
Duchy of East Frisia: Duke Frederick
Kingdom of Hessia: King Louis II
Kingdom of Wurzburg: Prince Franz Phillipp I
Kingdom of Wurttemberg: King William I
Kingdom of Baden: King Charles Frederick II
The Palatinate: Duke Conrad

In most cases new states that were formerly Archbishoprics etc. chose their own king or Duke from the local nobility after the Revolutionary Wars and he (or his descendents) now rule. There are three republics currently in Germany each with an elected Chancellor (and all within the League).

[Direwolf22]

The Fourth Silesian War
Part II: Storms in Silesia
(October 1830 to April 1831)


Prince Philippe of Poland, younger brother to the reigning Henry IV, led an army of thirty thousand men into Austrian Silesia. To his right an army of 22,000 led by Count Grabowski moved to prevent a Prussian move south and protect the flank of the main advance. To Philippe's left a similar size force under Count Poniatowski headed to secure southern Silesia and the town of Ratibor. Five days after Polish forces launched their invasion Saxony-Bavaria declared war on Austria-Hungary. Prussia soon joined the war on Austria's side. The goal of the Polish armies was to secure as much of Silesia as quickly as possible and above all else to prevent the Prussian and Austrian armies linking up and co-operating.

To that end the Saxobavarians launched an invasion of Silesia from the east under Prince Maximilian, eldest son of the king, with an army of around 32,000. Maximilian sought to link up with Polish forces near Goldberg and sever the Austro-Prussian forces. By now Austria had begun moving its own armies into battle. Prince Leopold commanded the Army of Bohemia (34,000) and was ordered by Vienna to move north-east and engage the Poles. Archduke Joseph and the Army of Silesia (31,000) had already moved to counter the Polish forces under Poniatowski. Duke Charles meanwhile was given 20,000 men to prevent a Saxonbavarian invasion of Bohemia from the north. Joseph's forces fought a battle against the Poles near Oppeln, in which the Austrians were forced to retreat. The Battle of Oppeln, in January, was a victory for the outnumbered Polish army who capitalised on their success and moved south to take the city of Ratibor. Prince Leopold (overall Austrian commander in the theatre) was now aware of the Saxo-Polish plan to prevent him linking up with the Poles. To prevent such a move he led his army north, joined with some forces from Joseph's command, and headed towards the city of Liegnitz.

The Prussians by now had entered the theatre. Prince Frederick, heir to the Prussian throne, led an army of 35,000 men south into Silesia. He too was determined to prevent the allies being cut off and sought to link up with the Austrians. At Sagan in mid February, he engaged a Saxon force under Maximilian's command and achieved a resounding success. This was the first example in the war of the more experienced Prussian forces (having successfully battled in the Pomeranian War a few years ago) outfighting their less veteran foes. The Saxobavarians were forced to regroup southeast. The Saxon Duke Ernest, commanding an army of 19,000, was ordered to increase his defences in northern Saxony in case the Prussians headed his way. Frederick of Prussia had other ideas though. The victory at Sagan had offered him an opportunity to swing round behind the Polish lines and strike at Grabowski's rear. The Prussian forces immediately began such a move taking the town of Glogau and crossing the Oder, throwing the Poles into a panic.

The Austrians by now had beaten off the Saxons in a series of skirmishes and continued their move north. The Poles under Philippe had overran large areas of Silesia and had taken Breslau. Determined to link up with Maximilian and the Saxobavarian forces, Philippe and his army crossed the Oder and attacked Liegnitz. The town repulsed the first assault and the Poles were forced to prepare a siege. Before they could launch a second attack however, to the south the Austrians under Archduke Leopold arrived to break the siege on April 2nd. The two sides skirmished back and forth for a day or two and were preparing for a full-scale battle when the Saxobavarians appeared from the west. The two allies began preparing to attack the now outnumbered Austrians. As the first cannon began to sound riders brought news to Leopold that a Prussian force of 9,000 men under a General von Clausewitz was three hours away, having been sent south by Frederick whilst the main army dealt with Grabowski. Leopold sent the rider back to the Prussians asking Clausewitz to “march to the sound of the guns”, meanwhile his own army prepared to do battle with the Saxon-Polish forces. The date was April 4th 1831.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9420/silesiancampaign1a.png

[Direwolf22]

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=183989

This is a link to the full timeline on the "Finished Timelines Page" for anyone wishing to read through it this will make it easier.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I just stubled on your "finished" thread - looks interesting - as sson as I have time I will read the second post over there (quite lengthy, but better that reading 22 pages here :D

From a glance on this thread - no partition of Poland for now - looks good for the A-(H) empire, though too much Italians to be good ;)

Seems you set up for an early WWI :o

BTW - I laughed loud when I red about the "progressive" Francis of Austria - OTL he was - lets put it mildly - conservative to the extreme

[General Mosh]

Very good. Looks like Liegnitz will be another town that goes down in history (although if I'm correct its the same Liegnitz that went down in history in 1760). When will we be getting another America update?

[Razgriz 2K9]

I did remember him saying that the next America update will be post-Fourth Silesian War...

Where'd you get that map though, it looks absolutely gorgeous.:D

[Direwolf22]

I just stubled on your "finished" thread - looks interesting - as sson as I have time I will read the second post over there (quite lengthy, but better that reading 22 pages here :D

From a glance on this thread - no partition of Poland for now - looks good for the A-(H) empire, though too much Italians to be good ;)

Seems you set up for an early WWI :o

BTW - I laughed loud when I red about the "progressive" Francis of Austria - OTL he was - lets put it mildly - conservative to the extreme

Glad you're enjoying it. Yeah the finished thread is so much easier if you want to read the whole thing start to finish.

I tend to see it as a twenty years later Napoleonic Wars rather than WW1. When we get to a real World War you'll know :cool:. And I know, I love the alt-historical ironies like that.

Very good. Looks like Liegnitz will be another town that goes down in history (although if I'm correct its the same Liegnitz that went down in history in 1760). When will we be getting another America update?

Yeah, shaping it up to be a major battle. Actually in OTL there were two battles of Liegnitz (one in the 13th Century against the Mongols). Though the 1760 battle doesn't occur ITTL as the war in Europe is over by 1758.

I did remember him saying that the next America update will be post-Fourth Silesian War...

Where'd you get that map though, it looks absolutely gorgeous.:D

I may do a North American update sooner than original cause I need to move that plot-line up as it will impact events in the 4th Silesian War. The Silesian Map? Googled Silesia and then GIMP'd it up haha.

[Kovalenko]

Superb timeline Direwolf, I truly enjoyed reading through the “finished” section and eagerly await to see how the war continues!

[Direwolf22]

Superb timeline Direwolf, I truly enjoyed reading through the “finished” section and eagerly await to see how the war continues!

Glad you're enjoying it! Will get back to the war soon, though next I will do a brief update on North America to bring that up to speed.

[Richter von Manthofen]

One point concerning "Louisiana" - If this declared independence, wouldN't it like to rename, so instead "Land of Louis" (=Louisiana) maybe "New France" ...

[Razgriz 2K9]

One point concerning "Louisiana" - If this declared independence, wouldN't it like to rename, so instead "Land of Louis" (=Louisiana) maybe "New France" ...

Perhaps, but New France, especially colonial New France, refers to all French territory in North America. Since France still has colonial possessions in North America (in the form of Quebec), this means that such a name would probably be misleading.

[Direwolf22]

One point concerning "Louisiana" - If this declared independence, wouldN't it like to rename, so instead "Land of Louis" (=Louisiana) maybe "New France" ...

Meh possibly, but I doubt it. Once a name is sort of established people tend just to accept it. It had been called Louisiana for over a hundred years before independence. Look at OTL Georgia (named after George II) they kept that name.

[Direwolf22]

(A brief aside to bring North America up to time with Europe. After this I will return to the Fourth Silesian War. And before you ask Latin America and the UPA will be discussed after I wrap up in Europe).


The Shifting Balance
North America: 1820-1830


The Third Louisianan-Confederate War started on August 20th 1820 when Jérôme I, Emperor of Louisiana, invaded the Confederacy of American States. The CAS had been obliged, under the terms of the Treaty of Charleston (which ended the Second Louisianan-Confederate War of 1819), to abolish slavery throughout the country. It however had done no such thing and in the few months since Jérôme withdrew from the CAS the government in Charleston had cracked down on slave insurrections and began mobilising new armies. The newly created Freedmen's Republic was full of slaves who had recently escaped from the Confederacy who told of the new counter-insurrection. Word was sent to New Orleans and the Emperor decided to act. 35,000 Louisianan soldiers invaded Georgia, the third time such an undertaking had happened in six years. The Confederates had assembled an army of 40,000 men near Atlanta ready to stop the Louisianan advance on the city.

Bonaparte however had no intention of taking Atlanta. The city, partially raised during the previous war, was no longer the important hub it had been, in addition Jérôme was convinced, correctly, that the Confederacy presumed he would strike this way. Instead Bonaparte went north-east coming round behind Atlanta and cutting it off from the north of the country. The Louisianan goal appeared to be Charlotte, capital of North Carolina. The Confederate forces were completely outmaneuvered. There was now a division within the CAS army. Many officers advocated that they stay where they are, believing Bonaparte's move to be a feint and that his primary goal was still Atlanta. Others, including the general Thomas Taylor, called for an immediate move north to engage Bonaparte. Eventually the latter view won out and the Confederates marched north with all speed. When word arrived of their movements a second smaller Louisianan force (around 6,000 men) as well as a force from the Freemen's Republic (c.3500) moved into Georgia from the south west. Like the last war they began a campaign of slave liberation and scorched earth eventually moving up to take the now lightly defended Atlanta. The great drama however was fought at the Battle of Hartwell.

Bonaparte had hoped that the Confederates would be forced to come to him, and he had prepared well. His forces had fortified the town of Hartwell, on the shores of the lake of the same name. To the east behind the river he had deployed his artillery and behind them, hidden, his cavalry. The Confederates arrived on February 2nd 1821. They immediately began an assault on Hartwell. The strike was bloody and the Confederates took great losses from the artillery across the river. General Taylor soon ordered an attack by his cavalry to cross the river and take out the cannon. Unfortunately for him the cavalry got bogged down in the river and were hit hard by the artillery. Eventually they crossed and were now ready to take out the guns. At this moment however Jérôme unleashed his own cavalry, divided in two groups. The first group struck the exhausted and battered Confederate horse on the east side of the river, routing them and saving the cannon. The second forced crossed the river further to the north over a pre-prepared wooded bridge. They poured down into the Confederate infantry assaulting the town shattering them. The Louisianan infantry now sallied out of Hartwell, and joining the cavalry, put the Confederates to flight. In only six months of war the Confederate Army of Georgia had been annihilated and the southern half of the country was in enemy hands.

Louisianan Cavalry counter-charge the Confederates at the Battle of Hartwell (1821):
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m27bdx7Rnr1rtv2o1o1_500.jpg

The Confederate still had another large force available however, the Army of Northern Virginia, led by Virginian Robert Adams. It was at this point however that the political developments doomed the CAS. There had been a growing resentment in Virginia over the last decade, or two, that Charleston was overreaching its authority and impeding on Virginians rights. The defeats in the south had not helped. Once word of the disaster at Hartwell reached Richmond there was a wave of defeatism and anti-war sentiment was high. Orders came from Charleston that the Army of Northern Virginia was to march south to defend the capital. The Virginians were aghast. They did not want to send their army (as they saw it) to die in attempt to save the Carolinans, whilst leaving themselves open to a Yankee attack no less! Leading Virginian politicians and General Adams conferred long into the night, and in the end refused to march the army south. The Confederate government was astonished and angered, they ordered that General Adams be relieved of command. The Virginians had another idea however. On March 30th 1821 the state government in Richmond, Virginia voted overwhelmingly to secede from the Confederacy and declare the independent Republic of Virginia.

The Confederate cause was now hopeless. Bonaparte's forces continued to move north and took Charlotte in April and then Raleigh soon after. Here he paused to let his men rest and gather supplies. During this period he negotiated peace with Virginia. Virginian independence was recognised and it was allowed to keep its borders as they were, provided they free the slaves, which they did (though with much grumbling). In the south of the Confederacy however things were still active. The Louisianans and Freedmen had continued their fight, battling the Confederacy in a series of skirmishes. There was however another force in the region, the Five Civilized Tribes. The natives had been gradually relocated during the early 1800s, some to Louisiana, the rest to Florida. Now, with backing from New Orleans, they too rose up against the CAS, and by the end of 1821 had seized large parts of the peninsula. The war would drag on until Charleston fell in early 1822 when peace was signed in the Treaty of Queenstown. Virginian independence was accepted, slavery was abolished (for real this time), the Freemen's Republic was enlarged, Louisiana received parts of Georgia and North Carolina and southern Florida was made independent as the Native Republic of Florida (or at least thats what other nations called it), a country comprised of the Seminole, Creek and Choctaw tribes. Bonaparte's legend was now established, he returned to New Orleans in triumph.

Rebelling Confederate slaves fighting in southern Georgia (1822):
http://immigrationclearinghouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/haitian-revolt.gif

In the far north of the continent meanwhile Britain and Russia had begun a period of serious competition over the Oregon region. British Canada had expanded westward as immigration increased throughout the 1820s, driving towards the Pacific. The Russians had simultaneously being moving south from Alaska. A skirmish broke out in 1824 and again in 1828 between British and Russian settlers. In the end to avoid war Britain and Russia divided up the territory, Russia gaining land whilst Britain got its Pacific coast. The rest of Oregon remain a disputed tinderbox however as British, Américan and Louisianan settlers all flooded into the region. In eastern Canada, Fort James had grown into a large city. It was also well fortified. The growth of Quebec was seen as a threat to the people both here and in New England. Quebec had been officially integrated into France in 1825. Since then French investment, economic and military, had increased and the population of the province had risen to just shy of 2 million people by the end of the decade.

In the 1820s New England had meanwhile continued its development and economic rise. Trade with Britain and the Caribbean continued to boom. First Minister Arthur Johnson, a Federalist, continued to push for a more assertive and prominent New England. The Royal New England Navy (RNEN) grew in size and strength. The army too was not neglected however as the wars to the south convinced the country that it needed to be able to defend itself. Relations with New Orleans cooled considerably during this time as the expansionist policies of Bonaparte were regarded with suspicion. Internally New England was the industrial heart of North America. Factories and iron works began to dot the Dominion, in addition rail-roads sprung up along the east coast, and out west connecting the cities of Queenstown and Pittsburgh. Domestically there was the rise of a third political party, alongside the Federalists and Whigs, the Liberals. The Liberals advocated a (surprise) liberal social agenda and were a pro-independence party. By 1830 however they were still by far the smallest of the parties.

Louisiana after 1822 was the powerful united French-speaking heart of North America. With the Confederacy finally dealt with the Emperor now set about domestic issues. A new constitution was drawn up. The Assembly was preserved as were the departments (now 48 with the new territories). Its powers had however been drastically reduced and supreme executive authority now lay with the Emperor. The country's population continued to rise as immigrants from Europe continued to arrive (primarily from France, Italy and the French Low Countries) and bringing with them the Industrial Revolution. The southern part of the country began to urbanise and, using the Mississippi river system, became an industrial and commercial power-hub. New Orleans controlled the river trade of the continent and became the largest city in North America outside of the UPA (Boston also claimed this title and in truth the two cities were extremely close). By the late 1820s however tensions had begin to rise with the United Provinces over Tejas. The border region between the two was filled with immigrants from Louisiana and elsewhere and was increasingly restless under the control of Mexico City. The Tejas issue would be explosive in the coming years. The British Native Protectorate too expanded into Oregon. It also would have growing issues with Louisiana over the issue of Native Americans in the border region between them. In the rump-Confederacy things were not good however. The CAS had lost huge amounts of land as well as its most populous state. The abolition of slavery had caused the Confederate economy to implode. The government in Charleston seemed increasingly unable to cope, and in 1829 the republic was overthrown by a military coup led by general James Moore who was made President, the country was now run by a military dictatorship.

[Razgriz 2K9]

So the mighty has fallen, but I bet this will not be the last we hear of the CAS, and this time, they may see both British and Américan support this time around.

[Direwolf22]

So the mighty has fallen, but I bet this will not be the last we hear of the CAS, and this time, they may see both British and Américan support this time around.

Quite possibly, depends on how aggressive the Empire continues to be. Obviously Britain has other concerns at the moment though. For the time being however the CAS is in serious trouble, has to move to a post-slavery economy and push trough institutional change.

[Germania09]

Wonderful TL

Somethings going to have be done about Poland or else I fear Austria Hungary will never be left alone :p

[RandomWriterGuy]

Is Napoleon gonna try to conquer North America?

[Razgriz 2K9]

Quite possibly, depends on how aggressive the Empire continues to be. Obviously Britain has other concerns at the moment though. For the time being however the CAS is in serious trouble, has to move to a post-slavery economy and push trough institutional change.

With a military dictatorship in power, I highly doubt such changes will be possible in the immediate future.

[Richter von Manthofen]

Do we see a Mormon state ITTL?

Poor Confederates ...

[General Mosh]

Wow, America is being split up all over the place. I look forward to seeing how all these nations interact.

[Direwolf22]

Wonderful TL

Somethings going to have be done about Poland or else I fear Austria Hungary will never be left alone :p

Am I detecting a slight Austrian-bias perhaps? Well the two of them are slugging it out over Silesia so one of them is going to emerge from this stronger.

Is Napoleon gonna try to conquer North America?

Jérôme Bonaparte you mean. No probably not. He has already carved out a very large state. Louisiana simply lacks the population base to be able to fight further campaigns. Besides further expansion will likely incur the wrath of New England and Britain.

With a military dictatorship in power, I highly doubt such changes will be possible in the immediate future.

It's definitely not going to be easy for them. The confederacy is undoubtedly in for a tough time.

Do we see a Mormon state ITTL?

Poor Confederates ...

No Mormonism has been butterflied away ITTL. I might come up with an alternative cult-type Christianity in the Americas, haven't decided yet.

Wow, America is being split up all over the place. I look forward to seeing how all these nations interact.

Yup. The general idea is that the "New World" ends up being pretty similar to the old. So lots of belligerent opposing nations each with competing goals and claims.

[Germania09]

Am I detecting a slight Austrian-bias perhaps? Well the two of them are slugging it out over Silesia so one of them is going to emerge from this stronger.


Austrian-bias? possibly.......:p

As for the slugging match, Austria has teamed up with Prussia so this war should be interesting .

[Questerr]

One point concerning "Louisiana" - If this declared independence, wouldN't it like to rename, so instead "Land of Louis" (=Louisiana) maybe "New France" ...

Given its population make-up, I think "Acadia" would be appropriate.

[Questerr]

This TL is amazing. I couldn't stop reading it, so I just finished the whole thing in a single sitting.

Bravo!

Someone needs to create a Victoria II mod for this stat.

[Razgriz 2K9]

This TL is amazing. I couldn't stop reading it, so I just finished the whole thing in a single sitting.

Bravo!

Someone needs to create a Victoria II mod for this stat.

You should probably wait until after the Silesian War is over. :P

[Questerr]

You should probably wait until after the Silesian War is over. :P

Of course. After all, the TL only goes up to 1830 and we need it to be 1836 for Vicky 2.

[Kuld von Reyn]

Some great updates these last few pages. Very nice maps too. Looking forward to seeing the results of the Fourth Silesian War. :)

[Voyager75]

Very exciting timeline so far. As Nova Scotia is French, Halifax really should have a new name by now.

[Direwolf22]

Austrian-bias? possibly.......:p

As for the slugging match, Austria has teamed up with Prussia so this war should be interesting .

The two of them would undoubtedly beat Poland, but with Saxony-Bavaria on the other front... Plus not to mention France, the strongest land power in Europe.

Given its population make-up, I think "Acadia" would be appropriate.

This TL is amazing. I couldn't stop reading it, so I just finished the whole thing in a single sitting.

Bravo!

Someone needs to create a Victoria II mod for this stat.

Of course. After all, the TL only goes up to 1830 and we need it to be 1836 for Vicky 2.You should probably wait until after the Silesian War is over. :P

True. Maybe if/when the Empire falls they might think of a rename. Glad you're enjoying this, always nice to get new readers. A Vicky II mod would be awesome. Guess I better hurry up and get to 1836 :D

Some great updates these last few pages. Very nice maps too. Looking forward to seeing the results of the Fourth Silesian War. :)

Thanks! Yeah I'm enjoying the map making, definitely think my skills are improving as I go on. Now that America has caught up I will go back to Europe. Part III this weekend.

Very exciting timeline so far. As Nova Scotia is French, Halifax really should have a new name by now.

Cheers, its good now that its picking up pace as well. You know I thought that the moment I finished the map. Any ideas? Louisville?

[AuroraBorealis]

Very exciting timeline so far. As Nova Scotia is French, Halifax really should have a new name by now.

New France exists already, its called Canada, Acadia , Ile Royale and Ile St. Jean. And Yes Halifax should be something else me thinks, Port-Anjou say. or perhaps Chebouctou if the Mi'kmaq is adopted in some kind of French form, though that might replace Dartmouth across the harbour instead if need be......Mind you Was Acadia recaptured or simply returned at some point? I cannot remainder. Anville

[Razgriz 2K9]

I would do like the Colony Name Change Mod from EU3 and rename it Port-Royal

[Direwolf22]

New France exists already, its called Canada, Acadia , Ile Royale and Ile St. Jean. And Yes Halifax should be something else me thinks, Port-Anjou say. or perhaps Chebouctou if the Mi'kmaq is adopted in some kind of French form, though that might replace Dartmouth across the harbour instead if need be......Mind you Was Acadia recaptured or simply returned at some point? I cannot remainder. Anville

Acadia was seized by the French during the Four Years War, the Battle of Halifax was a defeat for the British. So they would likely have renamed the city.

I would do like the Colony Name Change Mod from EU3 and rename it Port-Royal

Port-Royal? Yeah I suppose that would work.

[Stonewall]

I am eagerly awaiting updates from North America, I want to see Bonaparte conquer it all! :D :D :D

I would also love to help make a mod for Victoria 2, once 1836 rolls around.

[Direwolf22]

I am eagerly awaiting updates from North America, I want to see Bonaparte conquer it all! :D :D :D

I would also love to help make a mod for Victoria 2, once 1836 rolls around.

North America will be dealt with don't worry. Lots of exciting things to cover. Though Europe will be next. Back and forth...

[Direwolf22]

I would like to thank everyone who has so far voted for D@L in the Turtledove polls. We're in a solid third place behind the two titans.

Update later today.

[AuroraBorealis]

Acadia was seized by the French during the Four Years War, the Battle of Halifax was a defeat for the British. So they would likely have renamed the city.



Port-Royal? Yeah I suppose that would work.

Port-Royal is the original French for Annapolis Royal on the Bay of Fundy shore...It already exists.

[AuroraBorealis]

Acadia was seized by the French during the Four Years War, the Battle of Halifax was a defeat for the British. So they would likely have renamed the city.



Port-Royal? Yeah I suppose that would work. Or name it after who was in Command of the expedition to retake Acadia. Thats probably the governor or commander at Louisbourg on Ile Royale, or the overall Admiral in charge of the French Navy. now looking at it Chibouctou is the
french for the Mi'kmaq

[Nanwe]

Port de la Victoire? Shortened to Victoire, after all didn't the French win a big battle in Halifax, seems a good name to me.

[General Mosh]

I voted for this.

[AuroraBorealis]

Louisbourg will remain as the primary naval base and Fortress, so whatever harbour were to develop would end up secondary to it for a good long time.
the French were already referring to it as Chibouctou as early as the WAS.
Havre-Chibouctou which probably shortens later to just the latter

[Direwolf22]

Port de la Victoire? Shortened to Victoire, after all didn't the French win a big battle in Halifax, seems a good name to me.

Not a bad name, but I don't think they'd go for it. Probably just build a monument on the battle site.

I voted for this.

Thank you very much! A General Mosh may make an appearance at some point now.

Louisbourg will remain as the primary naval base and Fortress, so whatever harbour were to develop would end up secondary to it for a good long time.
the French were already referring to it as Chibouctou as early as the WAS.
Havre-Chibouctou which probably shortens later to just the latter

Chibouctou it is then. Nice and easy to pronounce.

[General Mosh]

Thank you very much! A General Mosh may make an appearance at some point now.
That would make my day :D

[Germania09]

The two of them would undoubtedly beat Poland, but with Saxony-Bavaria on the other front... Plus not to mention France, the strongest land power in Europe.

Yeah that is true if France does involve themselves then this could get ugly :cool:

[slydessertfox]

This TL just keeps getting better and better. I voted for this without hesitation.

I'm rooting for the Poles in the upcoming battle. I always feel bad for the poles, and love seeing them succeed.

[General Mosh]

I'm rooting for the Prussians and Hungarians because I like Prussia over Saxony.

[slydessertfox]

I'm rooting for the Prussians and Hungarians because I like Prussia over Saxony.

Meh, I have this seething dislike for Prussia. I like seeing Saxony succeed.

If you guys are noticing a pattern here, I always root for the underdog.

[Razgriz 2K9]

I dunno, with the way Saxony-Bavaria is, I don't think they would really qualify as an underdog...

...I think that all sides are evenly matched.

[slydessertfox]

I dunno, with the way Saxony-Bavaria is, I don't think they would really qualify as an underdog...

...I think that all sides are evenly matched.

In this TL, I don't think they would qualify much as an underdog, no. But I was referring more to OTL underdogs.

[Richter von Manthofen]

Thank you very much! A General Mosh may make an appearance at some point now.


Hey I too voted for this TL :D - is this TL continuing into the age of airplanes????

[Direwolf22]

That would make my day :D

No problem. Loyal fans are always rewarded!

Yeah that is true if France does involve themselves then this could get ugly :cool:

Yup ;)

This TL just keeps getting better and better. I voted for this without hesitation.

I'm rooting for the Poles in the upcoming battle. I always feel bad for the poles, and love seeing them succeed.

Well thank you very much, I'm glad to see you so excited about this. I root for the Poles too, they always seem to be the east's whipping boys. Problem is you can only do so much for them with a late POD.

Hey I too voted for this TL :D - is this TL continuing into the age of airplanes????

Haha well then, good thing you've got a good German name. And yes I plan to go until at least the middle of the 20th Century.


Actually on that note anyone one who voted for this TL and wants their name in it just say so and what name you want in (and if you have any idea whom you want to be) and I'll try and do so in the next few updates.


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[Kovalenko]

Direwolf, if you plan on giving Jérôme Bonaparte his own photo in the timeline might I suggest one of these? My apologizes for the large sizes.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8510/8401763268_639b079afb_b.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8218/8401762996_604ed3e834_b.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8235/8400673727_1a2063fb12_z.jpg

[slydessertfox]

Actually on that note anyone one who voted for this TL and wants their name in it just say so and what name you want in (and if you have any idea whom you want to be) and I'll try and do so in the next few updates.


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I wouldn't mind being an Italian nationalist/revolutionary from the Molise/Abruzzo area. I have no preference on the first name, but Crolla for the last name would sound good. :D

[Kuld von Reyn]

I also voted for this TL. One of the best ones I've read, and one of the few ones I've stuck with for this long. Keep up the good work!:D

[Razgriz 2K9]

I too have voted on this timeline, I really do enjoy it, especially since I read it the first time around about a year back. :D

[Direwolf22]

Direwolf, if you plan on giving Jérôme Bonaparte his own photo in the timeline might I suggest one of these? My apologizes for the large sizes.

Very cool thank you I will use them.

I wouldn't mind being an Italian nationalist/revolutionary from the Molise/Abruzzo area. I have no preference on the first name, but Crolla for the last name would sound good. :D

Sounds doable; fits in with my plans for Italy later on...

I also voted for this TL. One of the best ones I've read, and one of the few ones I've stuck with for this long. Keep up the good work!:D

I too have voted on this timeline, I really do enjoy it, especially since I read it the first time around about a year back. :D

thank you very much, your loyalty will be rewarded. Well we're in a very respectable third place.

though against the power of Thande there can be no victory...

[TheBerlinguer]

Here's another vote for Disaster at Leuthen! I have never posted comments on the thread since I've discovered this TL only recently (and I haven't read it all, yet... I'm still at the first Louisiana-Confederate War) but I thought this would be the best moment to start! :cool:

Now, did I read correctly when you wrote about cameos of the readers? :p

[Stonewall]

I voted for this TL, let's hope it goes far :D
I wouldn't mind a cameo as a Polish person-of-importance with the first name Paweł if possible :)

[Direwolf22]

The Fourth Silesian War
Part III: Fog of War, Call of Battle
(1830 to 1832)


The Fourth Silesian War had begun with the Polish invasion of Silesia in October 1830. Within weeks tens of thousands of men were fighting for control of the province as Poland and Saxony-Bavaria opposed the armies of the Austro-Prussian alliance. The other nations of Europe too looked on with concern and began preparing their armies, resigned to the likelihood of themselves being called into the war. As the fighting in Silesia continued the other German states began to be pulled closer and closer to war. In March of 1831 the Prussian army under Prince Frederick completed its encirclement of General Grabowski's Polish army and crushed them in the ensuing engagement. The victory here was a great triumph for the Prussians who had eliminated the immediate Polish threat to Prussia itself. Frederick now decided the time was right to invade Poland itself. A second Prussian force, the Army of East Prussia, had launched its own attack south into Poland. Frederick aimed to head east and join with this force before moving on to Warsaw.

The Silesian Campaign of the winter of 1830/1 climaxed in the great Battle of Liegnitz. The battle would rage from the morning of April 4th to the evening of the next day and would in all constitute over 120,000 men. The battle began at 5:00AM with Polish cavalry striking at the Austrian right flank. The Austrians managed to beat off the attack while attempting to withdraw south slightly to gain a better defensive position. Austrian and Polish forces fought bitterly all morning, until around 3:00PM when the Saxobavarian forces entered the battle, attacking the Austrian left. Around 5 o'clock the city of Liegnitz itself fell to the Poles. The Austrians attempted to hold the two opposing forces off with battle raging all evening. At dawn on the next day the three armies spotted a new force arriving from the north, around 9,000 strong. The Poles, believing them to be their own reinforcements, continued their fight with Archduke Leopold. Leopold, for his part, hoped they were the Prussians. He decided to gamble, remaining on the defensive on his left, he sent his cavalry in a full attack on the Polish infantry. This great charge (nearly 7,000 horse) coincided with the new army (who of course were in fact the Prussians under von Clausewitz) falling on the Polish rear. To make things worse the Prussians managed to catch Prince Philippe of Poland isolated and the Polish commander was killed by an anonymous Prussian horseman. The Polish forces soon fell into disorder and by around 4:45PM they were in retreat. The Saxobavarians under Prince Maximilian fatally hesitated to send men to assist the Poles around noon, fearing a larger Prussian force was on the way. With the Poles in flight, the Saxons began to disengage from the battle as the Austrians retook Liegnitz. By 7:30PM on the 5th the battle was over, around forty thousand men were dead or wounded.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2637/battleofleignitz.png


The Battle of Liegnitz would be one of the major events in the Fourth Silesian War. There would be two key consequences of the Austro-Prussian victory. Firstly it effectively ended the possibility of Poland and Saxony-Bavaria being able to link up in Silesia and act as a unified force, handing the initiative and upper hand to the Austrians and Prussians. Secondly there was France. The French had been preparing to enter the war in support of the Poles, as promised. However there was considerable opposition in France itself. Many, nobles and commoners, saw no reason for France to intervene in a war over Silesia. The king on the other hand was eager to support his Bourbon cousin and had just as many supporters as opponents. Liegnitz changed the game. Vienna and Berlin had hoped that a major victory in Germany would cause France to avoid joining the war, not wishing to back a losing side. How wrong they were. Leignitz sent alarm bells ringing in Paris. What would happen if Austria and Prussia crushed the Poles and Saxons, as many now feared? Would they divide Poland between them? Would Saxony-Bavaria be swallowed up by the Hapsburgs and Hohenzollerns? France must intervene now or face a hostile Europe unified from the Rhine to the Russian border. France declared war on Austria and Prussia on April 30th 1831. Hanover, under political pressure from France and Poland, followed suit a week later.

The French, and to a lesser extent the Hanoverian, declarations of war were a significant blow to the Austro-Prussian alliance. It was now necessary for the allies to change their battle plan. It was decided that they should attempt to hold in the west whilst trying to knock Poland out of the war, hoping that with the Poles out the chief casus belli would be gone and maybe peace could be established. To that end the Army of East Prussia continued its campaign against the Poles in the north whilst simultaneously the Austrian Army of Hungary was to invade Poland from the south whilst the army in Silesia under Archduke Joseph launched a renewed drive to force the southern Polish army out of the territory. The Prussian army under Prince Frederick however was ordered back to Prussia proper and was sent west to counter the Hanoverians. With Frederick moving west the Army of East Prussia, under General Franz Mosh, lacked the strength to take Warsaw, instead it set about conquering the Posen region, where it defeated a Polish force under Paweł Dikowski near Toruń (German: Thorn). The Austrians now began to prepare for a much greater conflict than originally hoped. Archduke Leopold (victor of Liegnitz) was to invade Saxony-Bavaria to gain a foothold there before the French could arrive. Another Austrian army was being raised in Venetia to prepare for any Italian campaign. Berlin and Vienna were now, also, determined to balance out the sides by diplomatic means. Diplomatic pressure on the League of the Rhine mounted throughout May of 1831. The average Rhinelander was sympathetic to the Austro-Prussian cause. However the elites, especially the Grand Marshall, King Frederick of Münster, were opposed to war. No help came from Dortmund for the time being. Britain however seemed more receptive. The British, secretly, promised to enter the war as soon as possible (distracted by a rising in Bengal at this time).

The French war effort began in Italy. A French army, roughly 38,000 men, moved into Sardinia. The Italian state, a Bourbon ruled French ally, joined the war and contributed a further 20,000 men. This huge force then invaded Austrian Venetia. The Austrian army here was not yet fully assembled so the defenders withdrew, delaying the French advance with a series of skirmishes. The French did however manage to win a large engagement near Verona in July 1831. The victory at Verona was enough to bring the other pro-French Italian nations (Modena, Lucca and Tuscany) into the war. The Papal States too were brought in (the French military presence in the country likely helped them make this decision). A bright spot for Vienna however was the actions of the Neapolitan Republic who invaded the Papal States in August forcing the French to distract themselves from the north. In Germany the French crossed the Rhine with a huge force led by Prince Charles (brother of the King) which numbered roughly 50,000 men. Baden had refused permission for the French to cross their nation, so the French simply invaded. The invasion of Baden however push other German states into the Austro-Prussian camp. Hessia and Wurzburg joined the war in early September, a significant addition to the Austrian and Prussian forces in Germany.

The Hanoverians had attempted a swift invasion of Prussia which had been beaten off by a much smaller Prussian army under General Richter von Manthofen, buying time for the main Prussian army to return from Silesia. The Saxobavarians meanwhile were on the defensive. Their army had withdrawn from the defeat at Leignitz, pursued cautiously by the Austrians. The joining of the war by Hessia and Wurzburg however had left them nearly surrounded. Saxony proper was almost cut off when an Austrian army invade the centre of the country. Dresden was ordered fortified whilst the main Saxobavarian force prepared in the south awaiting French forces. Swabia and Wurttemberg, seeing Baden's fate, both agreed to allow French forces through, though they were reluctant to declare war on France's enemies, known as the Coalition, but were eventually pressured into doing so. On September 20th the French met a Hessian-Wurzburg force at the Battle of Hanau, attempting to crush the allies before the Prussians could arrive to assist them. The result was an overwhelming French victory shattering the Coalition forces. The French continued their advance threatening the city of Wurzburg itself before the Prussians under Frederick arrived. The Battle of Wurzburg was a tie. The French had threatened to break the Coalition army but the timely arrival of the Hessians forced them to withdrew to the west, though the Prussian and Wurzburg forces had taken quite a beating.

The French invasion of Germany greatly antagonized the Rhinelander population. But the Grand Marshall continued to remain against war. In October however a popular revolt (rumours indicated British and Prussian assistance) ousted King Frederick in Münster. Following the example of Cologne a republic was declared, with one of the revolt leaders Kuld von Reyn (a respected local aristocrat) made Chancellor. With Frederick's overthrow (he went into exile in Switzerland) the League needed a new Grand Marshall. The pro-war King August of Westphalia got the nod, he brought the League into the war in November. The League's, eventual, declaration of war restored balance to the conflict. The French were forced to send a new force to deal with them. The Palatinate, in the path of the French, joined the Coalition and invited the League to send a force to protect it, which they did. French diplomatic efforts were also under way however, backed up by the great wealth of the nation. Towards year's end they pulled off a great political coup by convincing Sweden to enter the war in a bid to retake Pomerania, Prussia was now fighting on all sides. By the end of 1831 nearly half of Germany was in French hands. French forces had also arrived in Bavaria to help drive out the Austrians, and were simultaneously pressuring the League and the Coalition armies in Wurzburg. In Poland Austro-Prussian forces had despite, early victories, faced increasing Polish resistance. This Polish resilience caused the Coalition to begin to consider approaching Russia to enter the war. However, despite the benefit of Russia fighting Poland (and indeed Sweden) Berlin and Vienna were reluctant to see a Russian dominated Poland, let alone Russian armies on their own borders. In Italy French and allied forces had besieged Venice but in the south were facing a gradual Neapolitan drive north whilst pro-republican stirrings were beginning in northern Italian states. The war had raged for over a year, and thousands were dead, but the conflict was only just beginning.

The situation end of 1831:
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3726/fourthsilesianwarpart1.png


(Note Denmark is not pro-Coalition is as much as it is anti-Sweden, it just happens to be the same thing).

Edit: Also this map makes an error in not showing Karelia as Swedish, my mistake.


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[slydessertfox]

Awesome update. The war seems like it can really go either way. I suspect if France continues with its success, Britain would be pressured into joining.

[Direwolf22]

Awesome update. The war seems like it can really go either way. I suspect if France continues with its success, Britain would be pressured into joining.

Cheers. Yeah Britain will join the war shortly.



Also edit: I used the older map version which doesn't show Karelia as being Swedish so keep that in mind.

[Razgriz 2K9]

So I'm going to take a guess at this math problem here...

Fourth Silesian War = Austro-Prussian War + The First Three Silesian Wars + The Second Italian War of Independence...

As for me...I'll probably be some famous Swedish inventor who probably invented the airplane...:P

I dunno, I'm just eager to see a far of timeline get to the age of flight. :D

[Zoidberg12]

I voted for this in the Turtledoves! :D As for my character ITTL, I'll come back to you real soon about that, still not sure yet.

BTW, Great new updates. Great begging of the war, very interesting battles so far.

Louisiana as North America's dominant power is brilliant to say the least. I can tell things are going to get very interesting in both Europe and North America. ;) :D

Plus, having Boston being more important that New York? Allot of people are going to be really pissed about this (:rolleyes:) but I find such a butterfly very interesting, even thought I live right next to NYC. :p I assume NYC is the second most important city in New England than? What about Philly?

Haven't read the latest chapter yet, but according to the map my predictions seem to be spot on so far. :eek: :D

I like the pics of Emperor Jerome I, but one question. Any reason why he is a son of Napoleon instead of being his OTL brother? Who is Napoleon's wife in this timeline? What ever happened to OTL's Jerome Bonaparte? He was only born in 1784, plus his father was alive during the POD, so I don't see a reason he wouldn't exist.

Oh, and I should say, this timeline is the Ulimimate Bourbon-wank! :D (Sorry If I'm stating the obvious :p.)

[RandomWriterGuy]

Oh dear. Hell gonna break lose again. When will there be references to the Industrial Revolution btw?

[Richter von Manthofen]

Nice update...

The Poland first strategy is making sense - it has the advantage that it removes the threath of a two front war. And if Poland is Coalition occupied Russia can't simply take Poland and keep it indefinitely.

But as the Coalition is now hard pressed in the West and Poland is still largely unoccupied -itr would be wise to send feelers to Moscow and suggest a Polish "partition". Prissia should at least get the Corridor and the coast up to Courland, Southern Poland is up for grabs for Austria (About OTLs Galicia?) The russians should be awarded a large strip of Eastern Poland including the Ukrainean posessions. But The Coalition should keep a "rump" poland independent - friendship is larger if the shared border is small ;)

Russia should also have intentions to get Karelia back - another incentive to join the coalition (or just be co-belligerent)

The otehr option of Russia is to strike south while the Western powers are distracted. But I think that is the lesser opten because if it does not strike west now it would face the victor of the war later alone...

Russia has more claims on Alliance lands than on Coalition lands, so joining the Alliance seems unlikely IMHO.

Interesting times - in the Chinese sense...

General von Manthofen nice - I hope he survives the war ;)

[Sian]

As for the Nordic theatre, while Sweden would, at least early on focus on regaining Pomerania (and keep an eye on Denmark), Denmark would likely declare when they are busy other place, if possible trying to bribe or otherwise lure Russia into joining up on a dogpile with them trying to grab Karelia and Finland, but otherwise trying their hardest to be seen as semi-independent of the major wars on the continent). And start with pushing for a capture of Swedens western coastline, (from the Norwegian borders and south to and at the very least, including the Citadel of Helsingborg, across from Elsinore, more likely to old fishing towns of Falsterbo and Skanör furthest southwest, or perhaps even Ystad at the southeastern tip across from Bornholm, hemming in their access to the south as well, keeping control with superior naval forces (which can sail in most of Kattegat, whereas others are prone to run aground on banks and the mobility it gives), as to block access for French army/navy support, and from there attempt to push inwards from the south aiming at the old danish countries ... and depending on development of the war they might be happy calling that a day and play defensive till the war is over and there's made a treaty between Denmark (and Russia) and Sweden

Duing this time the king of Denmark would, most likely be Frederick VI, who in his youth was rather liberal, but OTL as he got older, became more authoritarian, through the losses the danish military had against Britain and Sweden in the Napoleonic wars ... with this butterflied, he might be learning towards being somewhat liberal and 'east-viewing' up through his ages

[Ahab]

Well, this was beautiful!!!!
This map is absulotly stunning!
I hope those damn Prussians will be crushed! Long live the Polish Commonwelth!
Long live Saxony-Bavaria!

[slydessertfox]

Well, this was beautiful!!!!
This map is absulotly stunning!
I hope those damn Prussians will be crushed! Long live the Polish Commonwelth!
Long live Saxony-Bavaria!
LONG LIVE POLAND AND sAXONY-BAVARIA!!!!!!!!!!

[Stonewall]

DO SZABLI! Poland fights on!
Here's hoping for some continued Prussian slamming and victorious Poland/France/Saxony-Bavaria!! :D