American 'Fascist' President Charles B. Davenport

[Beck Reilly]

What if...

The United States enters World War One in 1915 following the sinking of a second ship, the S.S. Western Star, an American ship carrying nearly 500 Americans to Britain. [The reason the ship was not sunk in OTL was that Germany gave up unrestricted submarine warfare in the wake of the sinking of the Lusitania.] In TTL, however, Germany does not give up unrestricted warfare, sinks the Western Star, killing 400 Americans (including the Lusitania, that brings the American death toll up to 600 in two months) and the US declares war on Germany. The war ends slightly earlier, in August of 1918, but nearly a half-million Americans have been killed, ten times the number which died in OTL.

Following the war, the US slips into a severe depression in early-1920s, substantially earlier than in OTL, and a new political party is formed. The American People's Party is formed by the KKK and the leaders of the Eugenics movement, whose policies fit together quite nicely. The APP gains power rapidly, with nearly seven million registered voters by the election of 1924. They are especially popular in Colorado, Oregon, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Alabama, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. They lose the election to Coolidge's Republicans but defeat the Democratic Party, whose reputation has been tainted by WWI. BTW, assume that the APP has gotten Charles Davenport (leader of the Eugenics movement) to quiet his anti-'poor' statements and the KKK to silence the anti-labor union statements. In 1928, with membership at an all-time high and the economy at an all-time low, APP candidates Charles Davenport and Hugo Black are elected President and Vice-President, respectively. They begin a process of vast public spending and an enormous military buildup to reinvigerate the economy and, by 1931, the American economy is headed towards pre-war levels...

Now what happens?

[Beck Reilly]

By the way...

1924 electoral election results are:

Republican Party >> 254
American People's Party >> 197
Democratic Party >> 80

1928 electoral election results are:

American People's Party >> 268
Republican Party >> 235
Democratic Party >> 28

[Grey Wolf]

Its interesting but where has the American Left gone ? One can hardly imagine Debs throwing in his lot with the Klu Klux Klan.

Grey Wolf

[Beck Reilly]

I'm thinking, since we're actually too late for Debs during this time (he died in 1926) that we'd see a labor coalition arise under John L. Lewis, the head of the United Mine Workers (the largest union in the nation). He was a brilliant organizer and a superb orator. I think he an Huey Long may have got along quite famously...

[Grey Wolf]

I'm thinking, since we're actually too late for Debs during this time (he died in 1926) that we'd see a labor coalition arise under John L. Lewis, the head of the United Mine Workers (the largest union in the nation). He was a brilliant organizer and a superb orator. I think he an Huey Long may have got along quite famously...

Are they sort of outside of politics or have you subsumed them within this popular party ? Given that the KKK is the home of redneck Southerners I don't see how they tie in with organised labour ?

Grey Wolf

[Beck Reilly]

I don't think the APP of TTL would tie into organized labor and, I believe, the political opposition to the APP in TTL, would be composed of a labor coalition political party (we'll call it the Labor Party or LP). I see this LP being headed by either Lewis or Long (Long would be nice since 1) he's a southerner and 2) he was definitely NOT a racist). It would provide some legitimacy to the LP having a leader from the region most characteristic of the APP. I think we'd see this Labor Party, with either Long or Lewis (or both) as candidates in 1936.

[Faeelin]

Dare I ask what causes this depression?

[Grey Wolf]

I don't think the APP of TTL would tie into organized labor and, I believe, the political opposition to the APP in TTL, would be composed of a labor coalition political party (we'll call it the Labor Party or LP). I see this LP being headed by either Lewis or Long (Long would be nice since 1) he's a southerner and 2) he was definitely NOT a racist). It would provide some legitimacy to the LP having a leader from the region most characteristic of the APP. I think we'd see this Labor Party, with either Long or Lewis (or both) as candidates in 1936.

Therefore I think your voter percentages would be different than shown. If you have a Labour Party it would at worst begin to do as well as the pre-WW1 British Labour Party. Of course under the electoral college system it may well fail to make a mark, at least without brave delegates who decide to ignore their instructions (it did happen from time to time OTL)

btw is your name REALLY Walter Kauffman, like the philosopher ?

Grey Wolf

[Beck Reilly]

Increased US involvement in World War One. I think that the morale damage that would be caused by a 1/2 million deaths cannot be underestimated. Don't forget that generation alive is the generation which has grown used to neat, little wars like the S-A War. The Great Depression was inevitable and I think that given the damage caused by WWI, it is likely it would come substantially earlier.

[Faeelin]

Increased US involvement in World War One. I think that the morale damage that would be caused by a 1/2 million deaths cannot be underestimated. Don't forget that generation alive is the generation which has grown used to neat, little wars like the S-A War. The Great Depression was inevitable and I think that given the damage caused by WWI, it is likely it would come substantially earlier.

Umm. The problem, see, is that there are plenty of nations who fought the war and didn't become fascist states.See: Britain. France. Nor did it lead to an earlier great depression.

In fact, with more deaths, maybe the market isn't overheated and doesn't crash.

[Beck Reilly]

I disagree, I put 'fascist' in quotes because I don't mean literally fascist, I just mean more authoritarian. I believe that the loss of 1/2 a million would come as much more of a shock to the US than to Britain. And don't tell me that stuff like this didn't happen.

Russian Empire = Complete Civil War (brutal communist regime)
German Empire = Complete Collapse (brutal authoritarian regime)
Austria-Hungary Empire = Complete Collapse (brutal authoritarian regime in Austria and a fascist regime in Hungary)
Republic of France = Complete Political Chaos
Italy = Breakdown of Monarchy and then Authoritarian Regime
Ottoman Empire = COmplete Collapse

In fact, the only countries that came out relatively okay in OTL were the US and Great Britain.

[Faeelin]

I had no idea the weimar republic was a brutal authoritorian regime. ;)

[Beck Reilly]

You know what I mean. It eventually became one...

[Faeelin]

You know what I mean. It eventually became one...

Yeah, in the 1930's. that's hardly right after ww1.

In fact, wouldn't it be more likely to have the socialists become a force?

"Half a million americans died for the capitalists!"

[Beck Reilly]

I have it happen a decade after WWI (1928) and it is hardly authoritarian in the beginning. I didn't even say that it was. I said "They begin a process of vast public spending and an enormous military buildup to reinvigerate the economy and, by 1931, the American economy is headed towards pre-war levels."

[Grey Wolf]

You could certainly throw Japan into your mix. And the Eastern European states - Poland was hardly a shining democracy, whilst Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria all went fascist to one degree or another.

Serbia - to - Yugoslavia makes an interesting case study but probably ends up looking like France on your list

Grey Wolf

I disagree, I put 'fascist' in quotes because I don't mean literally fascist, I just mean more authoritarian. I believe that the loss of 1/2 a million would come as much more of a shock to the US than to Britain. And don't tell me that stuff like this didn't happen.

Russian Empire = Complete Civil War (brutal communist regime)
German Empire = Complete Collapse (brutal authoritarian regime)
Austria-Hungary Empire = Complete Collapse (brutal authoritarian regime in Austria and a fascist regime in Hungary)
Republic of France = Complete Political Chaos
Italy = Breakdown of Monarchy and then Authoritarian Regime
Ottoman Empire = COmplete Collapse

In fact, the only countries that came out relatively okay in OTL were the US and Great Britain.

[Beck Reilly]

In fact, wouldn't it be more likely to have the socialists become a force?

"Half a million americans died for the capitalists!"

1) The Socialist Party in the US was already effectively dead.

2) By this logic, shouldn't Germany have become socialist/communist.

"One and a half million germans died for the aristocrats!"

[Phaeton]

What if...

The United States enters World War One in 1915 following the sinking of a second ship, the S.S. Western Star, an American ship carrying nearly 500 Americans to Britain. [The reason the ship was not sunk in OTL was that Germany gave up unrestricted submarine warfare in the wake of the sinking of the Lusitania.] In TTL, however, Germany does not give up unrestricted warfare, sinks the Western Star, killing 400 Americans (including the Lusitania, that brings the American death toll up to 600 in two months) and the US declares war on Germany. The war ends slightly earlier, in August of 1918, but nearly a half-million Americans have been killed, ten times the number which died in OTL.

Following the war, the US slips into a severe depression in early-1920s, substantially earlier than in OTL, and a new political party is formed. The American People's Party is formed by the KKK and the leaders of the Eugenics movement, whose policies fit together quite nicely. The APP gains power rapidly, with nearly seven million registered voters by the election of 1924. They are especially popular in Colorado, Oregon, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Alabama, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. They lose the election to Coolidge's Republicans but defeat the Democratic Party, whose reputation has been tainted by WWI. BTW, assume that the APP has gotten Charles Davenport (leader of the Eugenics movement) to quiet his anti-'poor' statements and the KKK to silence the anti-labor union statements. In 1928, with membership at an all-time high and the economy at an all-time low, APP candidates Charles Davenport and Hugo Black are elected President and Vice-President, respectively. They begin a process of vast public spending and an enormous military buildup to reinvigerate the economy and, by 1931, the American economy is headed towards pre-war levels...

Now what happens?

Nothing really, If the App were smart they would be focusing on getting Davenport relected, and If he does win in '32 His polices might call for more expansion and an ultimateum Manifest Destiny. While hyping up the American pepole Davenport is secreatly creating alliances with Germany and Austria-Hungray. On March 3rd U.s Troops assemble around the Mexican Border and Invade

What Happens next

[bill_bruno]

I disagree, I put 'fascist' in quotes because I don't mean literally fascist, I just mean more authoritarian. I believe that the loss of 1/2 a million would come as much more of a shock to the US than to Britain. And don't tell me that stuff like this didn't happen.

Russian Empire = Complete Civil War (brutal communist regime)
German Empire = Complete Collapse (brutal authoritarian regime)
Austria-Hungary Empire = Complete Collapse (brutal authoritarian regime in Austria and a fascist regime in Hungary)
Republic of France = Complete Political Chaos
Italy = Breakdown of Monarchy and then Authoritarian Regime
Ottoman Empire = COmplete Collapse

In fact, the only countries that came out relatively okay in OTL were the US and Great Britain.

Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire lost and were partitioned by the victors. Russia and Germany also lost. France had suffered considerable economic damage and loss of adult male population. Italy's political structure was somewhat ramshackle already. Interestingly, France didn't experience any serious danger of an authoritarian takeover until 1934. It was only the newly minted countries that fell to this (the new countries created out of the Hapsburg and Romanov empires and Germany and Italy, less than a century old).

Also, why does the U.S. coming into the war two years earlier create a severe depression? I could see a stronger recession from a postwar downturn but the factors that led to the Great Depression (bank crisis, agricultural crisis, farm crisis, trade war) don't pertain here.

Finally, the only time a third party displaced a pre-existing party was when the Republicans did it to the Whigs. However, the Whigs were on the verge of a terminal split over the slavery issue and there had always been something artificial about the alliance of Clay-style nationalists and anti-Jackson states' righters. What would likely happen here is that one of the two parties would absorb enough of the platform of this new party to co-opt its support.

Secondly, the Socialists enjoyed a mild resurgence in the thirties OTL.

[cow defender]

it'd be cool to see a showdown between the socialists and the APP.

[Tom_B]

Need to think this one over more thoroughly. Some preliminary thoughts

1] Fr. Charles Coughlin does not get mentioned. He is in his ascending period in the late 1920's. He represents something of a wild card. The KKK is historically antiChatholic but certain elements of his worldview would seem to dovetail.

2] Actually the religious overones of this need further consideration. Is the movement wrapped in Klanesque assumptions about real Christianity is OR does it have the PostChristian mentality of the Nazis OR something else?

3] WR Hearst is not mentioned. Is he an intractable enemy or has he jumped on the bandwagon? OTL his political progression was from Bryan Radical to Isolationist Republican.

4] American black participation in the Great War is something to address. Are they perceived as having fully participated or is their some real or imagined dissatisfaction with their effort by White America?

Tom

[Faeelin]

1) The Socialist Party in the US was already effectively dead.

Yes, yes it was. However, the notion of the small guy up against the big bad corporations was still present. remember all those comments about FDR being socialist?

Heck, a large part of the reason we were against intervenin in WW2 was because we felt the US was manipulated into the first one by arms companies.

2) By this logic, shouldn't Germany have become socialist/communist.

Well, leaving aside the obvious fact that this was a great fear (although probably not overly likely)....

The US is not Germany. We experienced a traumatic war in the 1860's which killed more people, percentage wise in terms of our population. We did not become fascist.

Indeed, it's interesting that you cite the only other country to not get screwed up as Britain. (Presumably Australians and Canada had a bout with fascism in which they were ruled by dictators for a week before reverting back to normal).

Dare I suggest that America has more in common with Britain than with, oh, Austria-Hungary?

[carlton_bach]

1) The Socialist Party in the US was already effectively dead.

2) By this logic, shouldn't Germany have become socialist/communist.

"One and a half million germans died for the aristocrats!"

It almost did, several times. The only reason Germany did not become a Socialirst/Communist state in the immediate aftermath of the war was that the Allies quietly tolerated and in some cases supported savage repression by right-wing non-government forces. The eventual compromise found by moderate Socialists left both the left and the right pissed off, but the right was given considerable control over the organs of the state to prevent a left-wing takeover. Not stacking the deck like that I'd expect a Socialist or Communist revolution/takeover before 1924.
After that time there was a brief respite during which it looked less likely, but when the Depression hit, the Communist numbers went up again, and the right-wing forces were again at work countering them, with everything they had at their disposal (there was a study at the time pointing out that the police and army could not withstand an attack by both the Communist and Nazi/right wing militias. Conclusion: If the crunch comes, the army should make common cause with the SA. Ick!)
Yes, Germany didn't go Communist, but it took a lot of hard work and money (and you have to wonder whether it wouldn't have been better if it had...)

BTW, an interesting side note is that the eugenics movement, fascist and quasi-fascist groups and all manner of neo-authoritarians (as opposed to traditional authoritarians, who wouldn't stand a chance in the US 'cause they don't have a tradition of authoritarianism in government) were competitors to Communism and Socialism much more than to the Conservatives. It is quite possible for a group campaigning on these principles to espouse a strongly populist platform addressing the concerns of 'the little guy'. That would make them a danger to the Democrats and Socialists much more than the Republicans.

Part of the appeal of Socialism/Communism at the time was that it appeared scientific and progressive and addressed a powerful feeling of having been wronged. Unlike modern Socialists, who tend to be idealistic and see a big picture, many voters back then wanted their 'fair share of the pie' and didn't much care how they got it. I'm pretty sure that's a demographic into which a party claiming that it was run on scientific principles, opposed to monopolies and untrammelled 'Wall Street' dominance, in favour of keeping out the 'lesser breeds', seeking to improve the gene pool, better the lot of hardworking common folk, and could prove that YOU THE VOTER are an example of the superior race could make inroads.

OK, I kinda doubt they would pick up much of the black, Jewish or Catholic vote, but your average second-generation NW-European-ancestry worker, small businessman or farmer looks like a good candidate.

I envision a majority-led, grass-roots democratic but strongly emotionalised and manipulative system where the 'Truth' is taught in schools and laid out in films and books, where state laws provide for 'separate but equal' facilities, the humane sterilisation of people who 'must be kept from procreating for the greater good', eugenic tests as a requirement for voting and/or state office, and probably some kind of official organ of propaganda and indoctrination (imagine a far more sinister version of the CCC, the TVA, or the FDA...). Those who oppose the government are, of course, tolerated and even encouraged to participate in the democratic process, but those whose misguided opposition to the scientific principles underlying our new society threatens the very fabric of this happy country need to be prevented from causing more damage. Expect black lists, loyalty tests, and 'gentle re-education' for the children of Communists, NAACP members and other subversives. Compassionate Fascism :p