Possibility of having Doenitz's Flensburg Government to exist longer

[Mauser]

The title states it all, is there any possibilities for such thing to happen? I know that the OTL situation was already very grim for the Flensburg government to exist. But what would happen if in this case the Soviet decided to attack the Allies? Would there still be any chance for Doenitz's government to continue to exist as a successor of Nazi Germany? Doenitz could do some cleansing to make sure his regime are more or less free from any Nazi influence. Or they would be simply swept away by the Allies?

On the other hand is there any other condition than the Soviet attacking allies which allows the Flensburg government continues to exist, at least for longer time than they do in our OTL?

[cclittle]

The first world war didn't end in unconditional surrender. It was followed by a second war. One mistake the Alies did not want to repeat was Germany goveringg it's self. The Flensburg Goverenment is more simmaer to the cease fire that ended WWI than it is unconditional surrender. They would not go along with it.

[Mauser]

The first world war didn't end in unconditional surrender. It was followed by a second war. One mistake the Alies did not want to repeat was Germany goveringg it's self. The Flensburg Goverenment is more simmaer to the cease fire that ended WWI than it is unconditional surrender. They would not go along with it.

I understand but what will happen to it in the case of Soviet-Allied War? They might see the need to cooperate with the Germans far earlier than they do in OTL.

[carlton_bach]

I understand but what will happen to it in the case of Soviet-Allied War? They might see the need to cooperate with the Germans far earlier than they do in OTL.

You don't really need a national government for that. If there really had been a WWII.2 on May 9, the western allies would have needed Wehrmacht units (still basically intact, though interned) and local administrative structures, not some glorified ersatz Berlin.

The only chance I can see fopr the Doenitz govt to last longer is if the Allies somehow can't ship in their administrative staff fast enough and have them run things for a few days longer. Very unlikely, IMO, but a good script for a spy drama, with US, British and Soviet handlers and interpreters swarming over Flensburg, grabbing files, ordering everyone around, countermanding each other's orders and trying very hard to look like they're the best of friends.

[Jim Smitty]

I dont see it lasting any longer than it did OTL. But if the Soviets attack say in October 45, they would need to reform all Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine units, and to get the Germans to fight hard Doenitz from a puppet government, with the understanding all war criminals still go on trail, and the Nazis and the Communist partes are out lawed, and groupslike the SS, Gestapo, and the like could not be form. So it would be the 2nd Fiensburg Goverment but it could had happen.

[Mauser]

You don't really need a national government for that. If there really had been a WWII.2 on May 9, the western allies would have needed Wehrmacht units (still basically intact, though interned) and local administrative structures, not some glorified ersatz Berlin.

The only chance I can see fopr the Doenitz govt to last longer is if the Allies somehow can't ship in their administrative staff fast enough and have them run things for a few days longer. Very unlikely, IMO, but a good script for a spy drama, with US, British and Soviet handlers and interpreters swarming over Flensburg, grabbing files, ordering everyone around, countermanding each other's orders and trying very hard to look like they're the best of friends.

I dont see it lasting any longer than it did OTL. But if the Soviets attack say in October 45, they would need to reform all Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine units, and to get the Germans to fight hard Doenitz from a puppet government, with the understanding all war criminals still go on trail, and the Nazis and the Communist partes are out lawed, and groupslike the SS, Gestapo, and the like could not be form. So it would be the 2nd Fiensburg Goverment but it could had happen.

I'm planning to develop a short TL based on this one, perhaps not without Doenitz in command, a Soviet attack planned secretly by Stalin few months after Germany had capitulated. Not expecting to hold long from the massive and surprise Soviet Army, the Allied thereafter in hurry decided to establish a temporary German administration and government using the fastest mean available. The objective is to put back any still usable remnants of Wehrmacht available. Since the Allied could not spare a second doing it, the Flensburg government is re-formed with Manstein in charge of forming new German military.

[Intosh]

I'm planning to develop a short TL based on this one, perhaps not without Doenitz in command, a Soviet attack planned secretly by Stalin few months after Germany had capitulated. Not expecting to hold long from the massive and surprise Soviet Army, the Allied thereafter in hurry decided to establish a temporary German administration and government using the fastest mean available. The objective is to put back any still usable remnants of Wehrmacht available. Since the Allied could not spare a second doing it, the Flensburg government is re-formed with Manstein in charge of forming new German military.

A soviet attak on western allies severals months after german surrender is ASB...

Second, even if such attach happenedd, you don't need any german government, all germans territories are under military occupation, so it is a allied military government, and local german autorities or civil services had only here to obey...

Third, germans soldiers can fight in units as the Foreign Legion or simply be giving weapons and constitued in auxiliaries units aka cannon fodder for the Allies. I'm sure germans low levels units commanders will be happy to protect german territory from Soviet occupation even without any high level negociation...

Please remember that most of the high level germans officers are under investigation of crimes of wars and you don't need any high level officers who just lost a war... So no Manstein and others...

Simple auxiliaries units of severals thousands men with old germans weapons commanded by low profile colonel or generals. And probably a lot of friendly fire will happend, nobody will care about about their lives...

[Mauser]

A soviet attak on western allies severals months after german surrender is ASB...

Second, even if such attach happenedd, you don't need any german government, all germans territories are under military occupation, so it is a allied military government, and local german autorities or civil services had only here to obey...

Third, germans soldiers can fight in units as the Foreign Legion or simply be giving weapons and constitued in auxiliaries units aka cannon fodder for the Allies. I'm sure germans low levels units commanders will be happy to protect german territory from Soviet occupation even without any high level negociation...

Please remember that most of the high level germans officers are under investigation of crimes of wars and you don't need any high level officers who just lost a war... So no Manstein and others...

Simple auxiliaries units of severals thousands men with old germans weapons commanded by low profile colonel or generals. And probably a lot of friendly fire will happend, nobody will care about about their lives...

Hm then what I can see is several years after. The thing is I'm looking for a different outcome than FRG and DDR division as in OTL.

Regarding your several points I should also perhaps suggest you that they might not all be that idealistic, supporting Allied to the point of presenting themselves as a cannon fodder, especially after the recent war. I doubt without any military leader they can at least hang on too, the Germans will have any morale to fight at all. And I think the Allied know that General such as Manstein, regarded as fine military commander even in the West would be considered as one of the suspect for high-level criminal activities. Most of them would be more likely pointed to SS generals. Wehrmacht general would be at most spared.

Consider also that the Allied had never faced the Soviet face to face before, and I think it might be safe for them to ask for more intelligence or at least adviser from Wehrmacht officers as to regarding the Soviet tactics and strategy. OTL the Allied did interrogate several high level German commanders and scientists, and did put them into use. (Operation Paperclip)

Talking about scientists I can also point out that the Allied will want to have every available access to Germany wonder weapons such as the Schwalbe 262, V-2 rocket and even to small arms like STG-44. Most of those weapons could only be used effectively by those who know and recognize them well.

And old German weapons? The only feasible option if they want to use German equipment is of course the latest one. I see no point for the Allied to give the Germans, still a good fighting soldiers, an old Panzer II or III where they know the only enemy they'll face in the battlefield is the Red Army.

Of course I might be wrong but I don't really understand your last point.

[Devolved]

The title states it all, is there any possibilities for such thing to happen? I know that the OTL situation was already very grim for the Flensburg government to exist. But what would happen if in this case the Soviet decided to attack the Allies? Would there still be any chance for Doenitz's government to continue to exist as a successor of Nazi Germany? Doenitz could do some cleansing to make sure his regime are more or less free from any Nazi influence. Or they would be simply swept away by the Allies?

On the other hand is there any other condition than the Soviet attacking allies which allows the Flensburg government continues to exist, at least for longer time than they do in our OTL?

A continuation of the Flensburg government might have been seen as too provocative to the Soviet Allies and may even have provided a casus belli for war if they were looking for a justification to attack Western Europe (which they weren't).

The Russians were dismissive of Doenitz and 'his gang' and would not have accepted a post war fascist continuation government of any sort.

It would also have been a godsend for Soviet propaganda if the Western Allies tolerated a Doenitz government for a day longer than it did. Many sections of the population in Britain, France and the US would also have been unhappy and would have become more pro Soviet in any propaganda war between East and West.

If the Soviets attacked early then the Western Allies couldn't afford to be seen to be Allies of the Nazis even ones that weren't under immediate arrest. Many western troops, especially British troops would refuse to fight their former Soviet Allies in order to protect not just Germans but Germans governed by their U boat commander. Trade Union strikes would paralyze parts of Europe too.

On a purely military level I don't think German soldiers would be very useful and couldn't be integrated fast enough in the face of a heavy Soviet assault. Most of Germany would have been overun before they could be organized.

German weapons would have been on scrap heaps and the war industry had pretty much stopped by early May. The Tiger tanks and Panthers were lying discarded within a couple of days of the surrender and the supply system had collapsed. Also large parts of German industry had depended on slave labour and these slave labourers were trying to get home by the time of the surrender.

The Allies would have faced a Soviet attack alone and would have fought them with British and American weapons. The British army was being resupplied with Comets (Centurions also on the way) and the Americans were getting Pershings. They didn't need German equipment to fight the Soviets.

[Jim Smitty]

At first they most likely would had not need the germans, but after heavy losses they would be to use their german pow and turn them into fighting units again. They would get rearm with US and British weapons, maybe some units get army with the Panther tanks and other german weapons, but this would be a small number of units, and their would mast likely be use as a speadhead unit. The only way the germans dont get rearm at some point after the Soviets attack if the Americans use the A-bomb in a tactic role, and a lot of them.

[Intosh]

Hm then what I can see is several years after. The thing is I'm looking for a different outcome than FRG and DDR division as in OTL.

Regarding your several points I should also perhaps suggest you that they might not all be that idealistic, supporting Allied to the point of presenting themselves as a cannon fodder, especially after the recent war. I doubt without any military leader they can at least hang on too, the Germans will have any morale to fight at all. And I think the Allied know that General such as Manstein, regarded as fine military commander even in the West would be considered as one of the suspect for high-level criminal activities. Most of them would be more likely pointed to SS generals. Wehrmacht general would be at most spared.

The old propaganda "SS were bad, Wehrmacht were not bad" was dismissed from severals years by most historians...

Wehrmacht generals were not spared : Jodl and Keitel were condemned to death but Nuremberg trials.

More Wehrmacht generals were condemned by the others trials for war criminals in Nuremberg :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Command_Trial

Consider also that the Allied had never faced the Soviet face to face before, and I think it might be safe for them to ask for more intelligence or at least adviser from Wehrmacht officers as to regarding the Soviet tactics and strategy. OTL the Allied did interrogate several high level German commanders and scientists, and did put them into use. (Operation Paperclip)

Talking about scientists I can also point out that the Allied will want to have every available access to Germany wonder weapons such as the Schwalbe 262, V-2 rocket and even to small arms like STG-44. Most of those weapons could only be used effectively by those who know and recognize them well.

Most germans wunderwaffen were useless scrap because they were expensive to build and difficult to maintain... And because Allies had a lot of simplier and more effective technology...

V2-rocket are useless in 1945-1946, Allies have a lot of better weapons to deliver on their ennemies high quantity of explosives...

V1 and V2 rockets were used by the Germans because Luftwaffen was unable to bomb the UK by conventional means. When you have a strategic airforce of severals thousands heavy bombers, you don't need some V1 or V2 wunderwaffen... Of course, after severals years of study and the help of germans scientists, these weapons will be useful but not if WWIII is in 1946 or 1947...

STG-44 is also useless because it have a funny ammunition 7.92 kurz and even german industry is not able to produce the weapons and the ammunition in great quantity... Hundred of thousands of M1 Garand and millions of rounds of 7.62 will be sufficient to fight this war and even the next one...

Please remember that Korean War 1950-1953 and Indochina War 1945-1954 were fought with WWII equipments. You have a lot of stuff from the past war and no need to produce something new except in technology area : aircrafts and tanks...

Yes, you took individuals as advisors, some field officers, on divisionnal levels, no high level officers who only think that Soviet soldiers were subhumans... On the field, the germans soldiers learnt the truth, the high level generals thought they lost the war because Hitler bad orders. The post-war memories of most germans generals are only about Soviet or Red hordes and their waves tactics...

And old German weapons? The only feasible option if they want to use German equipment is of course the latest one. I see no point for the Allied to give the Germans, still a good fighting soldiers, an old Panzer II or III where they know the only enemy they'll face in the battlefield is the Red Army.

When Germans troops surrendered, their old or new equipements wasn't stored, maintained or repaired. In 1946, most Tigers and Panthers tanks were only useless rusty carcass or subject to test for live weapons... And all useful equipments were already in services in french or others allied countries whose national industry were unable to produce sufficient quantity of military equipments.

If a WWIII happened in 1946, the germans POW's will be very more useful to repair french ports and helped the logistics of the Allied armies, by building roads, repairing railways, in western germany than fighting soviets. Or building field fortifications...

Of course I might be wrong but I don't really understand your last point.

My last point is simple, even if some brilliant minds on high levels decide to rearm and send to war against the Soviets, germans troops, I'm sure on the local level, the cooperation with allied units will be very difficult and friendly fire and lack of cooperation could killed a lot of germans...

- "Soviets tanks are in the city, but German auxiliary unit hadn't evacuated yet"

- "Don't car about these damned Germans, begin the bombing anyway..."

The best example is the italian case, even if Italy surrendered to the western allies in 1943 and accepted to declare war to Germany, no big units of the new italian army were authorized by the Allies to fight against the Germans... Cooperation on local level is one thing, the rest is ASB...

[Intosh]

I dont see it lasting any longer than it did OTL. But if the Soviets attack say in October 45, they would need to reform all Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine units, and to get the Germans to fight hard Doenitz from a puppet government, with the understanding all war criminals still go on trail, and the Nazis and the Communist partes are out lawed, and groupslike the SS, Gestapo, and the like could not be form. So it would be the 2nd Fiensburg Goverment but it could had happen.

There is no more Luftwaffe or Kriegmarine in May 1945.

And you don't need some useful germans planes or ships when you have the USAAF and the RAF, two of the three * most important airforce in 1945, and the US Navy and the Royal Navy are the two important navies...

* I don't know which of the RAF or the Red Army airforce is bigger in 1945...

[Typo]

it's pretty easy to let Doenitz remain in power for a few month longer, just have the allies see it useful for him to remain a puppet for a bit longer

[Intosh]

it's pretty easy to let Doenitz remain in power for a few month longer, just have the allies see it useful for him to remain a puppet for a bit longer

Karl Doenitz was arrested and condemned as a war criminal. And it wasn't the Soviets, as others war criminals, who want to condemn him, but the UK and the USA for the unrestricted submarine war and the famous "commando orders".

And you don't need a puppet government when you have an unconditionnal surrender. Just a military autority and martial law...

Please remember that in the hightest levels of the western allies, some people wanted to destroy Germany as an functionning country and return it to a pre-industrial level...

[Mauser]

The old propaganda "SS were bad, Wehrmacht were not bad" was dismissed from severals years by most historians...

Wehrmacht generals were not spared : Jodl and Keitel were condemned to death but Nuremberg trials.

More Wehrmacht generals were condemned by the others trials for war criminals in Nuremberg :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Command_Trial


In the case of Keitel and Jold I think most of the Allied understand that, though they were Wehrmacht generals, they're Hitler puppet and close subordinate, just in the same level likewise Goering. I don't think generals like Manstein, Rundstedt, or Mantauffel could be regarded as being in the same as Keitel and Jodl.

Regarding the articles you have given, there were only fraction of them compared to the number of Wehrmacht generals that served in the Weltkrieg II. Several of the charges indicted to them were just unreasonable especially the first article, "Crimes against peace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_peace) by waging aggressive war against other nations and violating international treaties." This is just an article made by the Victors. And I don't think in the case of situation like Soviet invasion, the Allied will persist pursuing this goal of putting generals to jail just because they participate in an aggressive war. Regarding organizing crime actions I think that is applicable but the Allied will most likely prioritize their investigation to SS generals first under this circumstance.

Remember that Churchill even endorsed Rommel personally after his death because of the Stauffenberg plot.

V2-rocket are useless in 1945-1946, Allies have a lot of better weapons to deliver on their ennemies high quantity of explosives...

V1 and V2 rockets were used by the Germans because Luftwaffen was unable to bomb the UK by conventional means. When you have a strategic airforce of severals thousands heavy bombers, you don't need some V1 or V2 wunderwaffen... Of course, after severals years of study and the help of germans scientists, these weapons will be useful but not if WWIII is in 1946 or 1947...

STG-44 is also useless because it have a funny ammunition 7.92 kurz and even german industry is not able to produce the weapons and the ammunition in great quantity... Hundred of thousands of M1 Garand and millions of rounds of 7.62 will be sufficient to fight this war and even the next one...

Please remember that Korean War 1950-1953 and Indochina War 1945-1954 were fought with WWII equipments. You have a lot of stuff from the past war and no need to produce something new except in technology area : aircrafts and tanks...They might be scrap and useless but I think the Allied will try to use every advantages they have against the Red Army.They will try their best to make the Germans still having them to be in their side and not just get captured or acquired by the Soviet easily. The Korean War and the Indochina war are different in scale if you want to compare it to World War III. The Allied will need to have every advantage they have, and the only thing they can improve is their weaponry quality.

Yes, you took individuals as advisors, some field officers, on divisionnal levels, no high level officers who only think that Soviet soldiers were subhumans... On the field, the germans soldiers learnt the truth, the high level generals thought they lost the war because Hitler bad orders. The post-war memories of most germans generals are only about Soviet or Red hordes and their waves tactics... I think that Field officers thinking the Soviets were subhumans are are just stereotype. Most of the Wehrmacht generals fighting in the eastern front recognized the Soviet as a dangerous fighting capable army and not subhumans. Remember that the Subhumans are just Nazi propaganda.

When Germans troops surrendered, their old or new equipements wasn't stored, maintained or repaired. In 1946, most Tigers and Panthers tanks were only useless rusty carcass or subject to test for live weapons... And all useful equipments were already in services in french or others allied countries whose national industry were unable to produce sufficient quantity of military equipments.You might be right, but again in the case of war with such grand scale like this. The Allied will need everything they have, and that means everything. The Panthers are not that rusty, the French armored divisions used them in small amount after war. Look also at Yugoslavia in the case of using German old equipment and Syria where Panzer IV is still used until Yom-Kippur War.

Flak 88 is still the best guns the Allied could posses when facing countless Soviet tanks. There's huge air support, but even huge air support and air force could not overturn bad weather and other natural factors.

The thing is I'm thinking of a much larger and earlier Operation Paperclip. And that would need a lot of help from the Germans in large scale if the Allied want to prevent the Soviet from getting useful tech.

If a WWIII happened in 1946, the germans POW's will be very more useful to repair french ports and helped the logistics of the Allied armies, by building roads, repairing railways, in western germany than fighting soviets. Or building field fortifications... But sooner or later the Allied will need additional manpower to be either used as a defender against the Soviet or to man static weaponry and such.



My last point is simple, even if some brilliant minds on high levels decide to rearm and send to war against the Soviets, germans troops, I'm sure on the local level, the cooperation with allied units will be very difficult and friendly fire and lack of cooperation could killed a lot of germans...

- "Soviets tanks are in the city, but German auxiliary unit hadn't evacuated yet"

- "Don't car about these damned Germans, begin the bombing anyway..."

The best example is the italian case, even if Italy surrendered to the western allies in 1943 and accepted to declare war to Germany, no big units of the new italian army were authorized by the Allies to fight against the Germans... Cooperation on local level is one thing, the rest is ASB.

I think they could not do that, if the Allied were to use German units and put them into front line use. They need it intact to keep the overall front line stable. Doesn't mean they are Germans, the Allied units could just leave them to fight the Soviet alone if the objectives are really important. There is no choice than not too cooperate with them in order to safeguard "They are Nazi, everbody in Germany is Nazi" stance for there's greater enemy in the horizon. And that's the Soviet.

Just put it this way, there is this strip of frontline that is really critical for the overall front and the Germans, by situation, are already there defending. The Allied could not choose not too cooperate with them. Like it or not that critical points need to be defended at all cost.

[Typo]

Karl Doenitz was arrested and condemned as a war criminal. And it wasn't the Soviets, as others war criminals, who want to condemn him, but the UK and the USA for the unrestricted submarine war and the famous "commando orders".

And you don't need a puppet government when you have an unconditionnal surrender. Just a military autority and martial law...

Please remember that in the hightest levels of the western allies, some people wanted to destroy Germany as an functionning country and return it to a pre-industrial level...Doenitz is going to be tried at some point, however, as OTL, the allies kept him for a while to maintain the chain of command of the German military as to make the surrendering and the first part of the occupation easier

[Mauser]

Karl Doenitz was arrested and condemned as a war criminal. And it wasn't the Soviets, as others war criminals, who want to condemn him, but the UK and the USA for the unrestricted submarine war and the famous "commando orders".

And you don't need a puppet government when you have an unconditionnal surrender. Just a military autority and martial law...

Please remember that in the hightest levels of the western allies, some people wanted to destroy Germany as an functionning country and return it to a pre-industrial level...

No martial law imposed by some foreign power is as effective as a native puppet government. The Allied will need every resource and hands they have in the war against the Soviet.

Sooner or later, the Allied realized that the Morgenthau Plan you're referring was not feasible due to Soviet threats. OTL they had very much time to prepare but in this ATL I've proposed, I think the Allied will realize the danger soon and will most likely cancel the plan.

[carlton_bach]

No martial law imposed by some foreign power is as effective as a native puppet government. The Allied will need every resource and hands they have in the war against the Soviet.


I think they can get better than Doenitz. Many Germans would have been willing to fight the Soviets (though not as many as is sometimes suggested - propaganda was discredited, and a lot of people simply had no taste for any further war). But if the Western Allies wanted people to inspire their new auxiliaries, they could have found them among the Wehrmacht generals not as closely associated with Hitler. Doenitz was pretty much a nonentity, and he had lost his part of the war early and comprehensively.

The other thing is what the Allies will want. They don't need Germany's industrial base or civilian infrastructure. What they could want is soldiers, groundpounders to carry rifles and drive tanks. Their best source of those would be POW camps, not German cities, and these people would show greater loyalty to their officers than to a putative 'German' government. There are very few medium-term advantages to keeping Doenitz, and none of those wouldn't be available if they just kept the second tier of specialists in place.

[Lemon flavoured]

Cheating slightly, but his government could have lasted a little bit longer if Hitler died a few days earlier.

[Mauser]

I think they can get better than Doenitz. Many Germans would have been willing to fight the Soviets (though not as many as is sometimes suggested - propaganda was discredited, and a lot of people simply had no taste for any further war). But if the Western Allies wanted people to inspire their new auxiliaries, they could have found them among the Wehrmacht generals not as closely associated with Hitler. Doenitz was pretty much a nonentity, and he had lost his part of the war early and comprehensively.

The other thing is what the Allies will want. They don't need Germany's industrial base or civilian infrastructure. What they could want is soldiers, groundpounders to carry rifles and drive tanks. Their best source of those would be POW camps, not German cities, and these people would show greater loyalty to their officers than to a putative 'German' government. There are very few medium-term advantages to keeping Doenitz, and none of those wouldn't be available if they just kept the second tier of specialists in place.

I see, do you have any other suggestion for this different Germany Head of State and Government other than Doenitz? Especially the one German soldiers would be loyal to fight to. Will the Allied choose it from Germany's democratic leader like OTL or they are going to try different route?

Cheating slightly, but his government could have lasted a little bit longer if Hitler died a few days earlier.

Interesting idea actually, is it possible to have a German Doenitz government or at least non-Nazi/SS leader for Germany before Germany is defeated completely? Perhaps Hitler might get betrayed sooner by either Goering or Himmler that he lost trust to both of the man?

[Grey Wolf]

it's pretty easy to let Doenitz remain in power for a few month longer, just have the allies see it useful for him to remain a puppet for a bit longer

This is precisely true. His government was the SURRENDERING AUTHORITY and did continue to exist for some weeks after this date. Just because the country has surrendered unconditionally does not automatically imply that it should no longer have a government. Doenitz and co certainly HOPED to last a bit longer, but the Western Allies got fed up with their attempts to do something, and wound them up. Circumstances could certainly exist where they continue to have very limited powers for a while longer

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Mauser]

This is precisely true. His government was the SURRENDERING AUTHORITY and did continue to exist for some weeks after this date. Just because the country has surrendered unconditionally does not automatically imply that it should no longer have a government. Doenitz and co certainly HOPED to last a bit longer, but the Western Allies got fed up with their attempts to do something, and wound them up. Circumstances could certainly exist where they continue to have very limited powers for a while longer

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Summing it up we now have three ways in which Doenitz's kind of government could exist while longer:

-In the times of Soviet Invasion
-The Allied wish more help from the Doenitz government to smooth over the surrender and capitulation of Germany. They also want to use Doenitz government in order to get war-criminals, important scientists and VIP.
-Hitler for some reason died earlier, or internal dispute in Nazi Germany caused Doenitz kind of government to form.

[Intosh]

Summing it up we now have three ways in which Doenitz's kind of government could exist while longer:

-In the times of Soviet Invasion
-The Allied wish more help from the Doenitz government to smooth over the surrender and capitulation of Germany. They also want to use Doenitz government in order to get war-criminals, important scientists and VIP.
-Hitler for some reason died earlier, or internal dispute in Nazi Germany caused Doenitz kind of government to form.

To sum up my position :

- Soviet Invasion is ASB,
- War criminals are members of this government and Unconditionnal Surrender means, "we can do what we want with you"
- Allies didn't want to negociate with any kind of government, somebody was required to sign the "Unconditionnal Surrender" and then it's the Year Zero...

During 4 years from 1945 to 1949, there was not such thing as a German state, Germany was even give a provisionnal flag, and even the German Red Cross was disolved being a nazi inflitrated organization and having accept to close eyes on crimes against humanity...

I just read this Wikipedia article and I don't know the Allies, both western and eastern went so far to dissolve german state...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany_(1945%E2%80%931990)

[Mauser]

To sum up my position :

- Soviet Invasion is ASB,
- War criminals are members of this government and Unconditionnal Surrender means, "we can do what we want with you"
- Allies didn't want to negociate with any kind of government, somebody was required to sign the "Unconditionnal Surrender" and then it's the Year Zero...

During 4 years from 1945 to 1949, there was not such thing as a German state, Germany was even give a provisionnal flag, and even the German Red Cross was disolved being a nazi inflitrated organization and having accept to close eyes on crimes against humanity...

I just read this Wikipedia article and I don't know the Allies, both western and eastern went so far to dissolve german state...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany_(1945%E2%80%931990 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany_%281945%E2%80%931990))

Point one, Soviet invasion is not alien-space-bat, there were really some incidents that really could cause massive outburst, not considering also that some historians still speculate what Stalin were thinking at that time.

Not so, Doenitz in fact refused Himmler and the SS in a showdown in Flensburg few days after Hitler committed suicide.

Disbanding Germany, there were some suggestions made but those were not realized due to the fact that having Germany to stand as a buffer and backing against the Soviet was important.

It is unfortunate that you refuse to see the fact that the Allied and even the Soviet did finally created a German state realizing their importance for long term. What they did in the few years after World War II I think was just what the Victors would do after defeating such a nation like Nazi Germany. But in this case in my position, the Allied realize that they should form an emergency German state sooner than they do in OTL.

[Don Lardo]

Remember that Churchill even endorsed Rommel personally after his death because of the Stauffenberg plot.


What you're failing to understand is that Churchill could do that because Rommel was dead.

In 1945 a living German commander, whether Heer, SS, LW, or KM is far too tainted by their association with the Nazis to be considered for any post-war post greater than men's room attendant and even that is pushing things.

The Allies are not going to accept, work with, or allow any post-war German government which has any link to the Nazi regime, let alone one whose chief executive was appointed by Hitler in his will. Your ideas are little more than a fantasy.

[Don Lardo]

Point one, Soviet invasion is not alien-space-bat...


Yes, it is because the one man more than any other who could make it happen in 1945, Stalin, was praying to a god he didn't believe in that it wouldn't happen.

Not so, Doenitz in fact refused Himmler and the SS in a showdown in Flensburg few days after Hitler committed suicide.

Bollocks. There were far more war criminals than Himmler and the SS. In 1945 even Doenitz was considered a war criminal and in a few years he would be serving a 10 year sentence as a war criminal.

Disbanding Germany, there were some suggestions made but those were not realized due to the fact that having Germany to stand as a buffer and backing against the Soviet was important.

Disbanding Germany was never an Allied goal, disbanding Germany's government and crafting a replacement as the Allies saw fit was the goal. The Allies even promised in their various unconditional surrender announcements that the German people would not be destroyed.

Don't confuse the German nation with the government of the German nation.

It is unfortunate...

No. The only unfortunate thing here is your inability to comprehend what the Allies' war aims actually were and what their opinions towards German officialdom was.

The Allies set up German administrations almost immediately in the areas they controlled. There was never any doubt that a German government or governments would eventually be set-up.

What you're failing to comprehend is that no Allied government in 1945 with the guns still warm is going to set up a German government with even the slightest hint of Nazis in it, let alone a government whose chief was appointed to that position by Hitler's last will and testament.

[Mauser]

What you're failing to understand is that Churchill could do that because Rommel was dead.

In 1945 a living German commander, whether Heer, SS, LW, or KM is far too tainted by their association with the Nazis to be considered for any post-war post greater than men's room attendant and even that is pushing things.

The Allies are not going to accept, work with, or allow any post-war German government which has any link to the Nazi regime, let alone one whose chief executive was appointed by Hitler in his will. Your ideas are little more than a fantasy.

In the face of public the Allied might try to maintain their stance over Germans, but politically on the back room why do you think the US went so far as to prioritize resources and giving security clearances to German scientists that previously worked under the Nazi without any question asked. Wehrner von Braun if you would imagine, worked to create V-2, used thereafter to bomb London. Few years afterward he was one of the leading NASA scientists with countless other scientists. If I'm an English or American with a position that every Germans are Nazi I would be very angry hearing that.

Another case, Erich Traub a virologist. If I am an Allied investigator on war criminal I would be sure to prioritize my attention on him first. Reinforced by the fact that he worked under Himmler. But after the war the Allied cooperate with him on several biological experiment. He was also on the list of scientists prioritized under Operation Paperclip.

(Remember also Dr.Strangelove :D)

I'm also open to other German leaders to be the Head of State or Government of this different German government. If Doenitz is no, then I'm sure there are others who are prepared to take his position.

[QUOTE]Yes, it is because the one man more than any other who could make it happen in 1945, Stalin, was praying to a god he didn't believe in that it wouldn't happen.Any source which I could read on regarding his views?


Bollocks. There were far more war criminals than Himmler and the SS. In 1945 even Doenitz was considered a war criminal and in a few years he would be serving a 10 year sentence as a war criminal.
It is difficult, because Germany lost the war she would ultimately have more war criminals. I'm sure if the Allied were the one to lost the war, and even Le May conceded it, there would be also a lot more war criminals for the Allied.

No. The only unfortunate thing here is your inability to comprehend what the Allies' war aims actually were and what their opinions towards German officialdom was.

The Allies set up German administrations almost immediately in the areas they controlled. There was never any doubt that a German government or governments would eventually be set-up.

What you're failing to comprehend is that no Allied government in 1945 with the guns still warm is going to set up a German government with even the slightest hint of Nazis in it, let alone a government whose chief was appointed to that position by Hitler's last will and testament.

In my opinions, Allied opinions and aims are variable things as they could be changed following the situation encountered. Just look at how the Allied agree to maintain the Emperor in Japan as a form of government after they had twice bombed Japan with an atomic bomb. I fail to see the reason why the Allied could not change their policy on Germany if they can with Japan. Historically speaking, after few years it was proven that the Allied could change their mind with Germany by allowing it Marshall Plan for rebuilding.

Well regarding his own appointment by Hitler, I think it was just because Hitler had no other successor in mind after Himmler and Goering betrayed him. In any other case, I am option to other leader instead Doenitz.

[Don Lardo]

In the face of public the Allied might try to maintain their stance over Germans, but politically on the back room why do you think the US went so far as to prioritize resources and giving security clearances to German scientists that previously worked under the Nazi without any question asked.

Are you seriously comparing Operation Paperclip with a post-war German government? Cannot you not even comprehend that Operation Paperclip worked because the Allied governments could hide the German scientists involved and the Allies cannot hide a German government?


Any source which I could read on regarding his views?

Not that it will help because you'll ignore the facts, but start with The Court of the Red Tsar by Montefiore.

Just look at how the Allied agree to maintain the Emperor in Japan as a form of government after they had twice bombed Japan with an atomic bomb.

The Allies made that decision after occupying Japan and devising a completely new system of government in which the Emperor played a purely ceremonial role.

I fail to see the reason why the Allied could not change their policy on Germany if they can with Japan.

That's not all you fail at.

The Allies did not change their policy with Japan. They made no promises regarding the Emperor before the surrender and allowed the Emperor after the surrender to remain only after completely changing his role in Japanese government and society. The Allies even forced the Emperor to deny his godhood.

Well regarding his own appointment by Hitler, I think it was just because Hitler had no other successor in mind after Himmler and Goering betrayed him.

It doesn't matter whether Hitler only had a choice between Doenitz and his dog Blondie. Once Hitler appoints Doenitz the German head of state, Doenitz' postwar political future is over.

In any other case, I am option to other leader instead Doenitz.

The Flensburg government derived what legitimacy it had from the Nazi government before it, so anyone associated with the Flensburg government is off the table. That's what you seemingly cannot understand. It's too soon after the war and the Nazi taint is too strong. Anyone who was prominent during the Nazi era cannot be chosen by the Allies.

[Mauser]

Are you seriously comparing Operation Paperclip with a post-war German government? Cannot you not even comprehend that Operation Paperclip worked because the Allied governments could hide the German scientists involved and the Allies cannot hide a German government?

I'm responding to the statment you have stated from your previous post as that the Allied are not going to work or cooperate with any Germans related to Nazi. The Allied, a victors they are, could always hide the true fact behind creating a German government if they want to do so.

Not that it will help because you'll ignore the facts, but start with The Court of the Red Tsar by Montefiore.Don Lardo, I'm bemused, why are you suddenly accusing in personal that I will ignore the facts? Please remember that this is an Alternate History discussion, which mean I could point out or question several points that you have posted for the sake of discussion. And that I have my own opinion and views that might differ from you. I will accept corrections and a valid argument, but I could also offer a counter-argument. That does not mean I will ignore the facts. Your tone is just such you are lecturing and looking down upon me and that is not necessary at all. ;):)


The Allies made that decision after occupying Japan and devising a completely new system of government in which the Emperor played a purely ceremonial role.

The Allies did not change their policy with Japan. They made no promises regarding the Emperor before the surrender and allowed the Emperor after the surrender to remain only after completely changing his role in Japanese government and society. The Allies even forced the Emperor to deny his godhood.

It doesn't matter whether Hitler only had a choice between Doenitz and his dog Blondie. Once Hitler appoints Doenitz the German head of state, Doenitz' postwar political future is over.
The Flensburg government derived what legitimacy it had from the Nazi government before it, so anyone associated with the Flensburg government is off the table. That's what you seemingly cannot understand. It's too soon after the war and the Nazi taint is too strong. Anyone who was prominent during the Nazi era cannot be chosen by the Allies.But still nevertheless of the Allied policy you're talking about, the Allied did not conduct an investigation questioning whether the Emperor had committed any crime at all in the war.

I understand the point clearly about Doenitz government being derived from Nazi government, in fact I have already said before that I am also open to other form of German government, in fact I have suggested different form of government led by different figure from Doenitz.